Some math for perspective: 2017 Tour De France took approx. 86 hours to win (which translates to 310 855 seconds). Second place was 54 seconds slower. That means that the difference in percentage was 0,0173% between the two riders. If optimizing a drivetrain (better bearings, optimal jockey wheels) gives as little as 0,1W in gain, than for an average of 300W we talk about 0,0333% difference (this could mean 103 seconds over the whole course ) For a Pro at such a tour - this can be a hell of a difference and fits neatly into marginal gains. For an amateur - if he has the money ;)
A 400€ pulley wheel saves me 1-2W? Impressive pricing... A Castelli aero jersey saves 22W at 109€... I guess ceramic bearings make more sense at high rpm, such as in engines or something...
Extended testing proves that ceramic bearings only make a difference at much higher rotation speeds than those produced on bikes. The difference that really counts is grease drag, which depends on the quantity and the quality of the bearing grease.
Jan Willem Kuilenburg, and if you see they only test their stuff with oils not grease. I dare anyone ride their bearing in England with the constant rain, 😆😆. $500 for 1.3w gain, no thanks.
In Denmark it rains allmost the same - I have a complete CS upgrade on my Triathlon bike, actually it was Dennis in this video how did the upgrade, its SUPER smooth, and i have rode my bike in almost any weather condition.
Lasse Gregersen i think you're giving a bearing a bit too much credit, or just experiencing the placebo effect. Or maybe it's just the fact that after paying what, like $1500, you *need* to feel a noticeable difference, otherwise you're a fool that paid all that money for effectively nothing. It's easy for the human mind to convince itself of something, especially when it is to preserve one's self image and ego 😋 Personally I'll just stick with bearing where the cost vs performance actually makes sense. Then again I don't have money to just throw away on pointless stuff, and if i did I wouldn't use it for $550 bearings and oversized jockey wheels.
Lasse Gregersen Negative. My entire bike probably cost less than what you spent on whatever they charged you for the upgrade lol I do have ceramic bearings though, and while you can easily see a difference while rotating the crank or wheels while not under load(like their little wall of examples), once you're actually on the bike the difference is more or less non-existent. Really a ceramic ball between steel races can only be so good. No matter what grade balls you use, no matter what lube you use, and certainly no matter what the company assembling them says, or what their completely biased wall of examples may lead you to believe, if the races are made of a material with far looser tolerances, that is much softer and not nearly as smooth, then after a certain point the grade of the balls really doesn't add much. Anyway, if you honestly believe they were a worthwhile purchase, then by all means, buy more when you need them. For me, unless you have a legitimate reason to justify spending hundreds of dollars for very insignificant gains, it just seems like just another gimmick for people with a lot of disposable income to latch onto so they can demonstrate their "superiority" over people who can't afford them/have better price vs performance evaluating abilities, and prove that they're "kewl" to other grown men. I mean honestly, how much better do you think what you got for hundreds of dollars is than some grade 5 $30 bearings? Do you think you're noticing the 3 millions of an inch difference and that's somehow making your bike ride smoother? I just don't see the logic behind it, not for the average consumer anyway.
Isostatic: pressure applied from all directions. Hot isostatic pressing (HIP) is a manufacturing process used to increase the density of ceramic materials.
Global Cycling Network - my first experience of bikes was late 60s early 70s in Oz when I was 9 Onwards. We used to buy cheap second hand bikes and customise them with ape hangar bars etc. We had to do everything ourselves including sorting out individual ball bearings. It makes me chuckle to think how far a simple ball bearing has come and wouldn’t give second thought to tolerances or whether they can fracture - so good to know and good to see. Mind you I was amazed when they started putting them into cages - guess I’m showing my age. Just come back to bikes and shop looked at me as if I was stupid when I asked for a heat fired vulcanising patch kit for the bike.
Michael McDermott there certainly is nothing wrong with using ceramic bearings but unless the race is designed especially hard you won't gain anything.
You won't gain anything unless you are talking about high rotational speeds - which are nowhere to be found on a bicycle. Just another way to drain yer pocket.
I love these technical videos. So cool to get a peak into the production process,. and really nice touch of them to make a custom Dan/GCN wheel for the video.
BB - $450 | 3W Wheel set bearings ~ $1200 | 3W Pulleys - $650 | 5W Chain - $160 | 3W So I can spend the same price as a decent carbon bike with ultegra components to get the same performance as wearing a 1 size smaller shirt? Seems like it’s a placebo only for rich people who already have the most expensive possible gear already & can’t find a better way to spend 2k
My drivetrain runs unbelievably smoothly after replacing a near-new Ultegra 8000 derailleur cage and bottom bracket with Ceramic Speed OSPW and BB. It was silky smooth on the work stand after installing the Ceramic Speed stuff but I didn't expect to feel that smoothness when actually riding. Surprisingly the smoothness is very noticeable on the road.
Fernando Roman - My wallet asked me to thank you for your concern. He's doing OK despite his recent weight losses. He added, "It could have been worse: The Boss was considering Di2 Ultegra 8000, which would have been a $1500 upcharge above mech 8000 whereas Ceramic Speed OSPW+BB totaled $1100. I persuaded him that Ceramic Speed would reduce his workload at least a little bit ALL of the time whereas Di2?? Had I known about the smoothness he would feel, convincing him would have been much easier. Cycling = difficult choices."
Ceramic Speed should make these for MTB and Gravel derailleurs. Installed custom OSPW on my GRX and the energy saving may not be noticeable but what is very noticeable is how much better it shifts and self cleaning in extreme conditions 💯
He he is Ceramicspeeedd ( the company that puts wheee into wheels) another very interesting video and quite the comparision as to how time consuming the process is for them to make each of the individual components. You can can tell there kind of obsessive on the quality side of things which is kind of reassuring when your paying such a big premium for there products... if only those jockey wheels weren't so ugly they would be the perfect company! Great to see GCN! Thank You.
One question I have that you didn’t go into in the two videos. What’s the defiance between coated and not coated bearing that CeramicSpeed manufactures?
Hi Boris. While the not coated CeramicSpeed bearing products will provide you with the best quality, the coated series has been specially developed to deliver the extra protection needed for rides that are put under extreme conditions. The coating is actually a metallic layer, which is 75% harder than the hardened steel races. The coating is applied in a very thin and even layer of 3 microns (0,003 mm) on the entire surface of the bearing race making this much smoother. Both the inside and the outside are treated to achieve optimal results. The coated bearings are thus recommended for high mileage riders and for those who are likely to skip or delay maintenance intervals.
Is it possible to make the races out of ceramic material as well? It would seem like the friction would be cut again. Or is it too difficult to machine?
It is, what people normally call ceramic bearings are in fact hybrid bearings (ceramic balls, steel races) but you can get full ceramic bearings. However you run into other issues like the fact the races are "too rigid" or "stiff" for certain applications - its hard to explain. They arent really suited for bicycles imho.
Hi Tim, the downside to working with ceramic races is the material brittleness. Bicycle (and many industrial bearings that we manufacture) bearings are presented with a wide range of lateral, radial, and compressing forces, in addition to periodic shock forces through riding use (pothole or similar impact). Ceramic races would not support this range of loads, and through testing show that cracking and race failure are at a much higher rate than would be acceptable. Through testing in pulley wheels (low load rating and relatively isolated), the difference of working with ceramic races was only 2-3 100ths of a watt, below the margin of error with lubricant and seal variances.
Global Cycling Network The whole thing really. It feels like a segment on the BBC. The editing is smooth and makes for a nice pace of video. Dan is clear and confident. Nice music choices... Only thing is I have a bias against Denmark after living there last year ;) not my favourite place in the world.
Sorry you asked about the tour not the video, I liked seeing how these are assembled and tested by hand. Makes me appreciate the craft and passion of engineering and cycling.
Good video GCN, but ceramic speed jockey wheels are still not worth the money. Besides the fact that they only use oil in the bearings. When real life application, we use grease.
We are glad to hear you liked the video, Julio. CeramicSpeed has chosen to use oil and non-contact seals in the jockey wheel bearings in order to achieve the lowest friction and help you ride faster. Nonetheless, you are always welcome to use grease instead, especially on winter days.
Sorry but using ceramic balls on steel races will only wear the races faster. They also compare their bearings filled with oil to normal bearings filled with grease. In general this looks like some sort of scam.
The problem, Eric, is that it's actually not opinion. Physics isn't based off of someone's opinion. Physics are real regardless of what one believes, and the fact of the matter is that these bearings do not provide an advantage over high quality steel bearings with high quality grease in real world applications. The wheels/chainsets with ceramic bearings on a wall spinning for a considerably longer time than the steel counterparts is unfortunately a marketing gimmick. This is not a real world test, as in the real world the bearing would be loaded. When you spin a wheel with no load, you're allowing the bearing to skid, or having one of the races spin without the balls moving. This eliminates the drag created by the grease and seal, which of course results in a lower total drag for ceramic bearings. There's a really good video (ruclips.net/video/o7iZVfSDbiA/видео.html) which explains all this in detail from an engineer who has no vested interest in cycling beyond it being his hobby. If you have the time, I encourage you to watch it. I used to believe the marketing completely before this engineer showed me his data and how wrong I was.
Hi Konyp1, through 13+ years of producing hand-built hybrid ceramic bearings for both sports & industrial use, we have seen first-hand the value of using the highest quality materials. Our unique, CeramicSpeed ceramic balls undergo a manufacturing process that is 4-6 times longer than many of our competitors. This results in a ball that not only exceeds the standard ‘Grade 3’ specifications but is of a higher density and hardness through to the center of the ball. It is specifically this hardness of the ball that allows it to maintain the surface smoothness from manufacturing (measured to 0.08 microns, or 0.00008 mm for surface measurement). While it is correct that the ball is much harder than the steel surface, as long as the ball maintains its surface integrity and smoothness, it cannot scratch, gouge, or deform the surface of the steel races through standard expected use. Exterior environment and contamination are the two factors that could deteriorate a bearing, however, by using a ceramic ball will actually reduce the speed of surface corrosion given the inert relationship between steel and Si3N4 (the material used in CeramicSpeed ceramic balls).
Most of us would get the same gains by just cleaning our chains or becoming more flexible / staying in a better position. But hey, marginal gains maximum prices.
I'm more interested from a longevity point of view. But, how do you keep your bearings running smoothly (apart from the obvious), if you spend a fortune on a ceramic speed jockey wheel, do you compromise it when you wash it and spray degreaser or water displacer over it etc should you lube it?
Given the elaborate process and sophisticated nature of the the product, I am rather more curious about the CeramicSpeed's backstory: how was this company started ?
Sadly, it's not about that. This really is only about money. Even their test, and the fact that they bought friction facts, are incorrect. Their claimed saving are not derived correctly. They used the worst Shimano data they produced and the best ceramic data and try to pull it off as a standard in watts saved. But that's just not how you do science. Plus the greatest saving comes from the wax they use on the chains when testing which you can clearly see by all the wax flakes on the derailleur.. there might be savings but it's less then 1% and thats just not worth the money
Umm...why? The cage is roughly the same price as the whole XTR derailleur. On top of that is the cost of the derailleur since it probably is written off at the same time, too.
Phillip, the other thing i wonder is aero drag. Their cage is significantly bigger than standard cages and usually more surface area=more drag. It really doesnt take much to produce 3watts of aero drag which is what they claim their friction savings are (actually they claim 2.3). So i wonder if all together u end up with a slower bike after dropping 400+ dollars
I think the odd watt here and there only really matters if you're serious about racing. I'd be interested to know how the durability improvements translate into the real world though. I've no idea what the cost difference is for a set of Ceramic Speed bearings but would be interested to see how the cost would compare per mile.
#AskGCN - Why does my old SRAM GXP threaded BB allow the cranks to spin easily and freely but the press fit bottom bracket on my new Canyon Ultimate has the cranks struggling to spin freely? If I push the pedal backwards it won't even do 1 single revolution unaided, whereas with the old threaded BB on my other bike, with the same cranks, it will do 3 or 4 revolutions. Is this added friction costing watts? Thanks
Check the grease and bearing seals on the old BB. On the old one, they might have worn and reduced the friction. I had an old BB that spun quite easily as well, then I rode it during a rain storm on a dirty farm road. It stopped turning after that.
In one of the GCN videos, GCN suggested to replace cables as often as possible with cheap version. It is more effective than to use expensive ones. Does it applicable for bearings as well? Lol.
I won't need these, because they won't make me faster and those small amounts of watts are not that much. But I appreciate the beautiful craftsmanship and attention to detail. So i do want to buy them now...
Got to be honest... I love watching Dan in GCN videos, but I can't help but feel that he doesn't quite enjoying geeking out on stuff like this as much as Si does.
Have watched this and the "behind the scenes" video - thanks for these - but unless I wasn't paying attention, it is not clear who makes the bearing races... where are they sourced from (assuming externally because otherwise would have shown the facility). Basically Ceramicspeed buys components and assembles them. Obviously with great care (and considerable markup). And their design and specifications. But I don't see them actually "manufacturing" anything (as in... from raw materials).
Sorry, for all that money you can buy aero testing in a velodrome and gain a whole lot more than a few watts. I will stick with my higher performing hawk racing bb, fouriers full ceramic oversize pully wheels for 1/6th the price , and squirt lube. I spend all the money I saved on other ways to get faster that amount to more than a few watts.
I would like to see these pulleys as a tension pulley on my bike not because it saves watts, but because it looks awesome ... or just ridiculous :D Whatever, do want, but I don't really see the necessary cages for mountain bikes, only for road bikes.
For the average joe i dare say these arent needed, i suppose theyre aimed at the people who 1- have more money than sense, 2- pros who need to eek out marginal gains.
Please make a video comparing riding on flat tires. Pros argue that tubulars are better since you can still ride them while flat. You also mentioned this in in this older video: ruclips.net/video/blma49fd7tQ/видео.htmlm22s
just ordered set of ceramic hybrid bearings from china for 24 usd set of 4. Will see how strong they are.... By the way, GCN, what power zones do you use in your video training???? I sent you email many times but you do not answer. Secret?
I would test it out only if the ceramicspeed quality guys have tested it too...nothing against you Dan...just taking the belts and braces approach :) be interesting if they gave him a mark out of 10 for his work
Здравсвуйте! Очень нравится ваше шоу. А можно через вас передать Ceramic speed мою идею. А идея заключается в том чтобы изготавливать внутреннюю обойму также из керамики. Так как внутренняя обойма меньше она больше подвердена износу и замена на не ржавеющую керамику была бы на пользу подшипнику.
holy cow 45K before the rim failed. Over the last 10 years I've destroyed 2 BB bearings on my bike with pressfit. My other bike with threaded BB hasn't died yet after 12K miles. I'm assuming as long as you keep salt and sand out of your bearings, it should easily last 45K miles easily.
So...are the races made out of steel? If so, after a few months the bearings will have more drag that steel bearings after the same time because the very hard ceramic balls will start to dig groves witch increases drag and play. This is a real fact, anyone can search for it. Besides this, i do not doubt the quality of the bearings. You just have to replace them often to get good energy savings.
: Feel free to think what you want Eric. The truth is, that you won't feel a 1 Watt saving when you are putting out 350 Watts because you fluctuate more than this 1 Watt at 350 Watts. AERO benefits are there, yes. The Aero savings go way beyond 1 Watts at the speeds that the peloton is doing and the aero benefits really work(see TT bikes). You can sell these people anything. It's modern day snake-oil. It's not that the bearings do nothing, of course not. But the saving for that amount of money is just ridiculous. I study physics and therefore I know a thing or two about Watts and friction and bearings. If you want a different youtube opinion check out Hambinis Channel.
Hi Frost Bite, there are a number of factors at play within a bearing between rolling (ball on races) and sliding (balls within the retaining cage) interfaces. By increasing the hardness, smoothness, and roundness of the balls used inside our bearings, we are able to reduce the surface drag of the balls inside the retaining cage, as well as reduce the friction of the balls rolling on the surface of the races. Ceramic races can indeed be an improvement over steel races, however, the material is not optimal for compression and impact when formed in a ring (think of a ceramic mug falling off a table). As our CeramicSpeed Balls go through an extensive manufacturing process to ensure the highest material density possible, we do not have to worry about the durability of our CeramicSpeed Balls. Our ‘hammer test’ video is a great testament to the quality and durability of the materials we work with for our CeramicSpeed Balls. We strive to source the highest quality races for our bearings with specially polished surfaces to best pair with our high-quality CeramicSpeed Balls.
I understand that the ceramic balls should provide improvements to the overall rolling mechanism. My concern is about the durability of these. Since ceramic is significantly harder (nearly three times) than steel, that should corrode the softer material (steel) in this case maybe faster than steel balls would do. Of course it will also depend on the lubricant life and its properties to reduce friction and how well it is sealed etc. So only real life tests would determine how long these ceramic bearings lasts compared to high quality steel bearings. Thank you for your response and insights.
Petr Cívela Though my opinion isn't that far off yours, I do like that there are people out there working the way these folks are. Besides, these red pulley wheels are absolutely gorgeous.
Any volunteers to try out Dan's CeramicSpeed jockey wheels?! 😂
I'd be happy to!
with pleasure !
yes please! :)
Send me one, I'll send Dan a beer or two and everybody is happy :)
Yes please. I just hope it fits!
That guy seems like a really good boss, encouraging Dan through the learning. Nice to see.
Cheers Galen, we really enjoyed our tour, and Dan getting the opportunity to make his own!
Tough choice here... do I want a new derailleur cage or a brand new Dura Ace Di2 full groupset?
Some math for perspective:
2017 Tour De France took approx. 86 hours to win (which translates to 310 855 seconds). Second place was 54 seconds slower.
That means that the difference in percentage was 0,0173% between the two riders.
If optimizing a drivetrain (better bearings, optimal jockey wheels) gives as little as 0,1W in gain, than for an average of 300W we talk about 0,0333% difference (this could mean 103 seconds over the whole course )
For a Pro at such a tour - this can be a hell of a difference and fits neatly into marginal gains.
For an amateur - if he has the money ;)
Thanks for sharing your calculation Przemysław Babik, that's certainly a big difference!
You know your way around numbers, Przemysław Babik. That is for sure one way to put things into perspective. :)
CeramicSpeed and now I feel honored, never would have I guessed that CeramicSpeed would chime in :)
A 400€ pulley wheel saves me 1-2W? Impressive pricing... A Castelli aero jersey saves 22W at 109€... I guess ceramic bearings make more sense at high rpm, such as in engines or something...
Exactly.
Maybe e bikes then
Ha ha
Extended testing proves that ceramic bearings only make a difference at much higher rotation speeds than those produced on bikes.
The difference that really counts is grease drag, which depends on the quantity and the quality of the bearing grease.
Jan Willem Kuilenburg, and if you see they only test their stuff with oils not grease. I dare anyone ride their bearing in England with the constant rain, 😆😆. $500 for 1.3w gain, no thanks.
Correct
In Denmark it rains allmost the same - I have a complete CS upgrade on my Triathlon bike, actually it was Dennis in this video how did the upgrade, its SUPER smooth, and i have rode my bike in almost any weather condition.
Lasse Gregersen i think you're giving a bearing a bit too much credit, or just experiencing the placebo effect. Or maybe it's just the fact that after paying what, like $1500, you *need* to feel a noticeable difference, otherwise you're a fool that paid all that money for effectively nothing. It's easy for the human mind to convince itself of something, especially when it is to preserve one's self image and ego 😋
Personally I'll just stick with bearing where the cost vs performance actually makes sense. Then again I don't have money to just throw away on pointless stuff, and if i did I wouldn't use it for $550 bearings and oversized jockey wheels.
Lasse Gregersen Negative. My entire bike probably cost less than what you spent on whatever they charged you for the upgrade lol
I do have ceramic bearings though, and while you can easily see a difference while rotating the crank or wheels while not under load(like their little wall of examples), once you're actually on the bike the difference is more or less non-existent.
Really a ceramic ball between steel races can only be so good. No matter what grade balls you use, no matter what lube you use, and certainly no matter what the company assembling them says, or what their completely biased wall of examples may lead you to believe, if the races are made of a material with far looser tolerances, that is much softer and not nearly as smooth, then after a certain point the grade of the balls really doesn't add much.
Anyway, if you honestly believe they were a worthwhile purchase, then by all means, buy more when you need them. For me, unless you have a legitimate reason to justify spending hundreds of dollars for very insignificant gains, it just seems like just another gimmick for people with a lot of disposable income to latch onto so they can demonstrate their "superiority" over people who can't afford them/have better price vs performance evaluating abilities, and prove that they're "kewl" to other grown men.
I mean honestly, how much better do you think what you got for hundreds of dollars is than some grade 5 $30 bearings? Do you think you're noticing the 3 millions of an inch difference and that's somehow making your bike ride smoother? I just don't see the logic behind it, not for the average consumer anyway.
Great work on those jockey wheels, Dan! Thanks for the visit and enjoy your rides with your newest CeramicSpeed upgrade.
Very interesting video, full of fascinating detail. Never going to fit these but still worth a few minutes of anybody’s time.
Hi Graham, that's fair enough. Really great to hear you found the video as interesting as us!
Thanks for the kind words, Graham! We're glad you enjoyed the video.
This is so amazing and fascinating...
Honestly, I lost my bearings halfway throught the video!
Cheers Omaris, great to hear you found it as fascinating as us!
Anytime! (^~^)
It is very fascinating! Now I know how CeramicSpeed bearings are made.
We're glad to hear you enjoyed the video as much as we did, Omaris. :)
CeramicSpeed Thanks a lot! (^~^)
It's so fascinating!
Isostatic: pressure applied from all directions. Hot isostatic pressing (HIP) is a manufacturing process used to increase the density of ceramic materials.
So the balls are really hard. But what about the inner or outer races? The forces will just be transfered to the next contact material.
I'm sure all the test they make, lead them to learn something about that.
If not, i'm sure PROs would not use them 3 years in a row....
@jenomsedivam You sure are a pro!
Thanks for all the hard work gcn
Dougall Stewart Thanks, glad you enjoyed the video! What was your favourite part of the tour?
Global Cycling Network - my first experience of bikes was late 60s early 70s in Oz when I was 9 Onwards. We used to buy cheap second hand bikes and customise them with ape hangar bars etc. We had to do everything ourselves including sorting out individual ball bearings. It makes me chuckle to think how far a simple ball bearing has come and wouldn’t give second thought to tolerances or whether they can fracture - so good to know and good to see. Mind you I was amazed when they started putting them into cages - guess I’m showing my age. Just come back to bikes and shop looked at me as if I was stupid when I asked for a heat fired vulcanising patch kit for the bike.
Typical Dan turning on the charm: "Will I be able to feel it? "
"No, you will not be able to feel it"
Michael McDermott there certainly is nothing wrong with using ceramic bearings but unless the race is designed especially hard you won't gain anything.
You won't gain anything unless you are talking about high rotational speeds - which are nowhere to be found on a bicycle. Just another way to drain yer pocket.
Michael McDermott on the Tour de France where one second can matter over a thousand km yes.
I loved seeing the manufacturing process!
This was the video I was asking for. I think a set of jockey wheels may be in my future. Thanks Dan.
Brian Schiff Cheers Brian, really glad you enjoyed the video!
We're happy that you liked the video, Brian! Good to hear that you will join the CeramicSpeed family one day.
Wow. GCN listened and added more content about ceramic speed bearings
I love these technical videos. So cool to get a peak into the production process,. and really nice touch of them to make a custom Dan/GCN wheel for the video.
Great tech video, got to the end of the first one full of questions then presto! the next one answered most of them. Outstanding!
BB - $450 | 3W
Wheel set bearings ~ $1200 | 3W
Pulleys - $650 | 5W
Chain - $160 | 3W
So I can spend the same price as a decent carbon bike with ultegra components to get the same performance as wearing a 1 size smaller shirt? Seems like it’s a placebo only for rich people who already have the most expensive possible gear already & can’t find a better way to spend 2k
I love these factory/bts vids!
Alec J Thanks so do we!
Happy you liked the one featuring CeramicSpeed as well. GCN did a great job!
precision bearings with workers hairs, very funny to see how this high tech factory works. But thanks for posting.
2:37 woman in the background.
My drivetrain runs unbelievably smoothly after replacing a near-new Ultegra 8000 derailleur cage and bottom bracket with Ceramic Speed OSPW and BB. It was silky smooth on the work stand after installing the Ceramic Speed stuff but I didn't expect to feel that smoothness when actually riding. Surprisingly the smoothness is very noticeable on the road.
and your wallet is that much lighter after spending more on these stuff than on the whole ultegra groupset... so there is weight benefits too
That's awesome Paul, great to hear your bearings are super smooth!
Fernando Roman hahahaha
Yeah you are not likely to feel the 1-2 watt difference, but psychologically knowing you have the smoothest drive train possible is still nice!
Fernando Roman - My wallet asked me to thank you for your concern. He's doing OK despite his recent weight losses. He added, "It could have been worse: The Boss was considering Di2 Ultegra 8000, which would have been a $1500 upcharge above mech 8000 whereas Ceramic Speed OSPW+BB totaled $1100. I persuaded him that Ceramic Speed would reduce his workload at least a little bit ALL of the time whereas Di2?? Had I known about the smoothness he would feel, convincing him would have been much easier. Cycling = difficult choices."
Ceramic Speed should make these for MTB and Gravel derailleurs. Installed custom OSPW on my GRX and the energy saving may not be noticeable but what is very noticeable is how much better it shifts and self cleaning in extreme conditions 💯
You get a like for this video, because I'm Danish... And also because you make great contents at GCN.
Great video dan nice work
Cheers Jay, glad you enjoyed the video!
Manufacturing companies on the continent seem so pleasant and civilised in comparison to here in the UK.
Nice piece of engineering suitable for professionals only, I admire this company and their products, really cooly made in Europe.
Have a look at this: ruclips.net/video/o7iZVfSDbiA/видео.html
He he is Ceramicspeeedd ( the company that puts wheee into wheels) another very interesting video and quite the comparision as to how time consuming the process is for them to make each of the individual components. You can can tell there kind of obsessive on the quality side of things which is kind of reassuring when your paying such a big premium for there products... if only those jockey wheels weren't so ugly they would be the perfect company! Great to see GCN! Thank You.
Hi John, there is so much precision that goes into making the perfect bearing, it's quite astounding! Glad you enjoyed the video!
We're happy to hear you enjoyed the video as much as we did, John!
One question I have that you didn’t go into in the two videos. What’s the defiance between coated and not coated bearing that CeramicSpeed manufactures?
Coated means they have an extra layer of protection. Less chance of rust + general longevity (does not wear as fast).
Hi Boris. While the not coated CeramicSpeed bearing products will provide you with the best quality, the coated series has been specially developed to deliver the extra protection needed for rides that are put under extreme conditions. The coating is actually a metallic layer, which is 75% harder than the hardened steel races. The coating is applied in a very thin and even layer of 3 microns (0,003 mm) on the entire surface of the bearing race making this much smoother. Both the inside and the outside are treated to achieve optimal results. The coated bearings are thus recommended for high mileage riders and for those who are likely to skip or delay maintenance intervals.
BALLS OF CERAMICS
Is it possible to make the races out of ceramic material as well? It would seem like the friction would be cut again. Or is it too difficult to machine?
It is, what people normally call ceramic bearings are in fact hybrid bearings (ceramic balls, steel races) but you can get full ceramic bearings. However you run into other issues like the fact the races are "too rigid" or "stiff" for certain applications - its hard to explain. They arent really suited for bicycles imho.
Hi Tim, the downside to working with ceramic races is the material brittleness. Bicycle (and many industrial bearings that we manufacture) bearings are presented with a wide range of lateral, radial, and compressing forces, in addition to periodic shock forces through riding use (pothole or similar impact). Ceramic races would not support this range of loads, and through testing show that cracking and race failure are at a much higher rate than would be acceptable. Through testing in pulley wheels (low load rating and relatively isolated), the difference of working with ceramic races was only 2-3 100ths of a watt, below the margin of error with lubricant and seal variances.
An interesting and informative video gcn as per, thanks.
Cheers David, what was your favourite part of the tour?
Global Cycling Network The whole thing really. It feels like a segment on the BBC. The editing is smooth and makes for a nice pace of video. Dan is clear and confident. Nice music choices... Only thing is I have a bias against Denmark after living there last year ;) not my favourite place in the world.
Sorry you asked about the tour not the video, I liked seeing how these are assembled and tested by hand. Makes me appreciate the craft and passion of engineering and cycling.
It took balls to make this video.
Good video GCN, but ceramic speed jockey wheels are still not worth the money. Besides the fact that they only use oil in the bearings. When real life application, we use grease.
We are glad to hear you liked the video, Julio. CeramicSpeed has chosen to use oil and non-contact seals in the jockey wheel bearings in order to achieve the lowest friction and help you ride faster. Nonetheless, you are always welcome to use grease instead, especially on winter days.
another great video, great to really understand the benefits of ceramic bearings - thank you!
Thanks Elliott, what was your favourite part of the tour?
We're happy to hear that you like the video and that it was informative, Elliott. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any other questions.
Sorry but using ceramic balls on steel races will only wear the races faster. They also compare their bearings filled with oil to normal bearings filled with grease. In general this looks like some sort of scam.
konyp1 Yes, very right.
The problem, Eric, is that it's actually not opinion. Physics isn't based off of someone's opinion. Physics are real regardless of what one believes, and the fact of the matter is that these bearings do not provide an advantage over high quality steel bearings with high quality grease in real world applications.
The wheels/chainsets with ceramic bearings on a wall spinning for a considerably longer time than the steel counterparts is unfortunately a marketing gimmick. This is not a real world test, as in the real world the bearing would be loaded. When you spin a wheel with no load, you're allowing the bearing to skid, or having one of the races spin without the balls moving. This eliminates the drag created by the grease and seal, which of course results in a lower total drag for ceramic bearings.
There's a really good video (ruclips.net/video/o7iZVfSDbiA/видео.html) which explains all this in detail from an engineer who has no vested interest in cycling beyond it being his hobby. If you have the time, I encourage you to watch it. I used to believe the marketing completely before this engineer showed me his data and how wrong I was.
Hi Konyp1, through 13+ years of producing hand-built hybrid ceramic bearings for both sports & industrial use, we have seen first-hand the value of using the highest quality materials. Our unique, CeramicSpeed ceramic balls undergo a manufacturing process that is 4-6 times longer than many of our competitors. This results in a ball that not only exceeds the standard ‘Grade 3’ specifications but is of a higher density and hardness through to the center of the ball. It is specifically this hardness of the ball that allows it to maintain the surface smoothness from manufacturing (measured to 0.08 microns, or 0.00008 mm for surface measurement). While it is correct that the ball is much harder than the steel surface, as long as the ball maintains its surface integrity and smoothness, it cannot scratch, gouge, or deform the surface of the steel races through standard expected use. Exterior environment and contamination are the two factors that could deteriorate a bearing, however, by using a ceramic ball will actually reduce the speed of surface corrosion given the inert relationship between steel and Si3N4 (the material used in CeramicSpeed ceramic balls).
BALLS OF STEEEL
Kahrpistols absolutely brilliant comment, you tell them!
Most of us would get the same gains by just cleaning our chains or becoming more flexible / staying in a better position. But hey, marginal gains maximum prices.
I'm more interested from a longevity point of view. But, how do you keep your bearings running smoothly (apart from the obvious), if you spend a fortune on a ceramic speed jockey wheel, do you compromise it when you wash it and spray degreaser or water displacer over it etc should you lube it?
Very informative!👍
Given the elaborate process and sophisticated nature of the the product, I am rather more curious about the CeramicSpeed's backstory: how was this company started ?
Sign me up! I do it! Dan is a great handy man and I trust him.
Haha, cheers Petinka! What was your favourite part of the tour?
See Dan work of course :) He did that good and are perfectionist. That is the main reason I trust he made the jockey wheels good.
Wish these guys did fidget spinners too
That would be fun to see. We'll bring the challenge to our R&D department. ;-)
What is the actual Wattage saved by the OSPW? 40-60% of the frictional losses only helps if I know what the frictional losses are.
I can already imagine the pain when something hits the derailleur cage and you need to spend 400 euros to replace it.
Sadly, it's not about that. This really is only about money. Even their test, and the fact that they bought friction facts, are incorrect. Their claimed saving are not derived correctly. They used the worst Shimano data they produced and the best ceramic data and try to pull it off as a standard in watts saved. But that's just not how you do science. Plus the greatest saving comes from the wax they use on the chains when testing which you can clearly see by all the wax flakes on the derailleur.. there might be savings but it's less then 1% and thats just not worth the money
Or if you've got poorly set limit screws.
JMise - Not as worrisome a rocking a DI2 XTR MTB derailleur!
Umm...why? The cage is roughly the same price as the whole XTR derailleur. On top of that is the cost of the derailleur since it probably is written off at the same time, too.
Phillip, the other thing i wonder is aero drag. Their cage is significantly bigger than standard cages and usually more surface area=more drag. It really doesnt take much to produce 3watts of aero drag which is what they claim their friction savings are (actually they claim 2.3). So i wonder if all together u end up with a slower bike after dropping 400+ dollars
Wow I luv this video!!!!! 🤓
Thanks! What was your favourite part?
We're glad to hear that. The team at GCN did a great job.
Will these jockey wheels be going on your bike?
I’m blown away. That was a really interesting video and I’m sold on the ceramic components. Looks like I will need to buy some bearings.
So were we Ben, so much precision goes into producing the ceramic bearings! Let us know if you do!
We are very happy that you liked the video, Ben. Remember that we are here to help if you need any help finding the right products for your bike. :)
Awesome awesome
100% Handmade. I love my Ceramicspeed Stuff. :-)
I think the odd watt here and there only really matters if you're serious about racing. I'd be interested to know how the durability improvements translate into the real world though. I've no idea what the cost difference is for a set of Ceramic Speed bearings but would be interested to see how the cost would compare per mile.
How do i work out what size bearings i need without removing the old ones first, Old 80s raleigh MTB. Activator 2 to be precise.
Great factory tour.
Too expensive for me to ever be able to use though
Hey Evan, that's fair enough. We are really glad you enjoyed the tour as much as we did!
Global Cycling Network if I had the $$$ to burn I would though!
#AskGCN - Why does my old SRAM GXP threaded BB allow the cranks to spin easily and freely but the press fit bottom bracket on my new Canyon Ultimate has the cranks struggling to spin freely? If I push the pedal backwards it won't even do 1 single revolution unaided, whereas with the old threaded BB on my other bike, with the same cranks, it will do 3 or 4 revolutions. Is this added friction costing watts? Thanks
Because it is worn out. SOmething due to that
it's relatively new, mechanically sound and has has been professionally fitted a number of times
Check the grease and bearing seals on the old BB. On the old one, they might have worn and reduced the friction. I had an old BB that spun quite easily as well, then I rode it during a rain storm on a dirty farm road. It stopped turning after that.
What is the purpose of the black smiley? Thanks!
they guy from ceramicspeed even wears those bearings as ear-rings...amazing attention to detail
ffmdotcom it’s amazing and creative marketing department.
I want it all!
Cool product!
Thanks Perry, what was your favourite part of the tour?
We're glad to hear you liked it, Perry!
Full disclosure: the gains from the bearings / derailleur cage / chain is less than the aero drag caused by my belly. But I still want them. ;-)
Dave Pratt The gains is very negligible vs aerodinamic when your speed more than 20km/h
It's all about the riding experience, Dave. And the one with CeramicSpeed is quite smooth. :)
Dave Pratt , you had to get me, O/O°
Ceramic Speed: “Dan from GCN...I have a VERY important job for you and ONLY you can do it.” 😂
Great video to see how these things are made.
In one of the GCN videos, GCN suggested to replace cables as often as possible with cheap version. It is more effective than to use expensive ones. Does it applicable for bearings as well? Lol.
I won't need these, because they won't make me faster and those small amounts of watts are not that much. But I appreciate the beautiful craftsmanship and attention to detail. So i do want to buy them now...
Got to be honest... I love watching Dan in GCN videos, but I can't help but feel that he doesn't quite enjoying geeking out on stuff like this as much as Si does.
Is there a need for a ball bearing in the bottom bracket at all ? Its a high load, low rpm point, why dont just use sleeve bearings instead ?
Have watched this and the "behind the scenes" video - thanks for these - but unless I wasn't paying attention, it is not clear who makes the bearing races... where are they sourced from (assuming externally because otherwise would have shown the facility).
Basically Ceramicspeed buys components and assembles them. Obviously with great care (and considerable markup). And their design and specifications. But I don't see them actually "manufacturing" anything (as in... from raw materials).
so what kind of prices are we looking at?
Sorry, for all that money you can buy aero testing in a velodrome and gain a whole lot more than a few watts. I will stick with my higher performing hawk racing bb, fouriers full ceramic oversize pully wheels for 1/6th the price , and squirt lube. I spend all the money I saved on other ways to get faster that amount to more than a few watts.
I would like to see these pulleys as a tension pulley on my bike not because it saves watts, but because it looks awesome ... or just ridiculous :D Whatever, do want, but I don't really see the necessary cages for mountain bikes, only for road bikes.
Diesel turbos have been using ceramic bearings
spinning a bearing not under load tells you nothing, just one bearing has grease and one little to no oil.
do they provide headset bearings also??
They Live We See there is potential here :D Save up to 1Watt on steering losses and not to mention the micro movements done during the ride :)
Hahaha, Yay for a meager $600. you too can bomb down a tricky hill like Peter Sagan with supper ceramic headset bearings!
What’s the film from your avatar? I swear it’s where they get these glasses and can see ‘reptiles’ or whatever
from the movie "They Live", avatar picture is made by Hal Hefner who made various "CONSUME" wallpapers based on that movie
They Live We See ahh yeah that was it takes me back! and they had billboards of adverts were like ‘obey,’ crazy film
The QC guy's voice is like that of a Bond Villain
These jockey wheels cost twice as I paid for my 10 years old bike... Still can't believe that such prices exist...
If you make the switch to latex tubes, that will be worth 5 watts per wheel, and much cheaper than these bearings.
Apparently, AND allegedly they have a dart board in the Ceramic Speed Board Room with Hambini's photo on it. Or maybe not.
Nice but I'd rather use SKF and Enduro bearings. Top quality for a fraction of the price.
For the average joe i dare say these arent needed, i suppose theyre aimed at the people who 1- have more money than sense, 2- pros who need to eek out marginal gains.
Please make a video comparing riding on flat tires. Pros argue that tubulars are better since you can still ride them while flat. You also mentioned this in in this older video: ruclips.net/video/blma49fd7tQ/видео.htmlm22s
Great video, but does anybody actually believe these derailer pulleys are a performance upgrade?
just ordered set of ceramic hybrid bearings from china for 24 usd set of 4. Will see how strong they are.... By the way, GCN, what power zones do you use in your video training???? I sent you email many times but you do not answer. Secret?
I would test it out only if the ceramicspeed quality guys have tested it too...nothing against you Dan...just taking the belts and braces approach :) be interesting if they gave him a mark out of 10 for his work
Здравсвуйте! Очень нравится ваше шоу. А можно через вас передать Ceramic speed мою идею.
А идея заключается в том чтобы изготавливать внутреннюю обойму также из керамики. Так как внутренняя обойма меньше она больше подвердена износу и замена на не ржавеющую керамику была бы на пользу подшипнику.
nice ad!
huh? clearly this went over your gullible head?
holy cow 45K before the rim failed. Over the last 10 years I've destroyed 2 BB bearings on my bike with pressfit. My other bike with threaded BB hasn't died yet after 12K miles. I'm assuming as long as you keep salt and sand out of your bearings, it should easily last 45K miles easily.
So...are the races made out of steel? If so, after a few months the bearings will have more drag that steel bearings after the same time because the very hard ceramic balls will start to dig groves witch increases drag and play. This is a real fact, anyone can search for it.
Besides this, i do not doubt the quality of the bearings. You just have to replace them often to get good energy savings.
Where is the magic fairy dust added that justifies the price of ceramic bearings?
Eric O'Brien well thank you for your complete butchering of the English language in reply.
A saving between 1 and 3 Watts... where the margin of error is bigger than the value itself... that's not good science.
Compared to different products
: Feel free to think what you want Eric. The truth is, that you won't feel a 1 Watt saving when you are putting out 350 Watts because you fluctuate more than this 1 Watt at 350 Watts. AERO benefits are there, yes. The Aero savings go way beyond 1 Watts at the speeds that the peloton is doing and the aero benefits really work(see TT bikes). You can sell these people anything. It's modern day snake-oil. It's not that the bearings do nothing, of course not. But the saving for that amount of money is just ridiculous. I study physics and therefore I know a thing or two about Watts and friction and bearings. If you want a different youtube opinion check out Hambinis Channel.
I'll either buy full steel bearings or full ceramic. No hybrid non-sense.
Wonder what Hambini would have to say about this.
"it's all ball bearings these days" ....... irwin m. fletcher
I don't understand how these ceramic balls will help since the enclosures are still made from steel.
Hi Frost Bite, there are a number of factors at play within a bearing between rolling (ball on races) and sliding (balls within the retaining cage) interfaces. By increasing the hardness, smoothness, and roundness of the balls used inside our bearings, we are able to reduce the surface drag of the balls inside the retaining cage, as well as reduce the friction of the balls rolling on the surface of the races. Ceramic races can indeed be an improvement over steel races, however, the material is not optimal for compression and impact when formed in a ring (think of a ceramic mug falling off a table). As our CeramicSpeed Balls go through an extensive manufacturing process to ensure the highest material density possible, we do not have to worry about the durability of our CeramicSpeed Balls. Our ‘hammer test’ video is a great testament to the quality and durability of the materials we work with for our CeramicSpeed Balls. We strive to source the highest quality races for our bearings with specially polished surfaces to best pair with our high-quality CeramicSpeed Balls.
I understand that the ceramic balls should provide improvements to the overall rolling mechanism. My concern is about the durability of these. Since ceramic is significantly harder (nearly three times) than steel, that should corrode the softer material (steel) in this case maybe faster than steel balls would do. Of course it will also depend on the lubricant life and its properties to reduce friction and how well it is sealed etc. So only real life tests would determine how long these ceramic bearings lasts compared to high quality steel bearings.
Thank you for your response and insights.
im using ceramicspeeds agreed it help a lot.
They use some tools by wera! They know whats good :)
Want.
What was your favourite part of the factory tour baggyroo10?
Sorry to say that but ceramic bearings are just a gimmick for wealthy noobs.
Petr Cívela Though my opinion isn't that far off yours, I do like that there are people out there working the way these folks are. Besides, these red pulley wheels are absolutely gorgeous.
petr you're a wealthy noob
Corentin Français There is nothing wrong with that. If you really want it just buy it. But don't get yourself fooled by marketing bullshit.
Btw if you want some non bias concentrated info about ceramic bearings check this out ruclips.net/video/o7iZVfSDbiA/видео.html
Jealous bitch.
Real men use bowling balls in their bearings!
Sry I use tennis balls for some suspension
Assembled by hand..i beleave is what you both meant to say......multible times
Three seasons with the same bottom bracket, in pro racing? You have to be kidding me.
Is it just me, or is Dan putting a coloured rinse through his famous hair?
#RAJUG
I need this.
Пожалуй перестану смазывать цепь графитной смазкой)