Hey Kyle, I have a Sony str-dn1080 av receiver and after autocale it sets my subwoofer to 8.0. The bass was way too boomy, so I tuned it down to 2.0 db and it blends perfectly with my LCR channels which are the Sony sscs5 bookshelf speakers. I had them crossed over at 80hz, but now I have them crossed at 70hz and they actually sounds better now. I never listen at reference level or volume over 25 so the speakers are pretty loud with no distortion and the subwoofer LFE sounds like it’s coming from the speakers now. You are absolutely right about an 80hz crossover might not be good for everyone! Thanks for informing us audio amateurs 🤣🤣🤣 and keep up the great work
In a two channel speaker system the preamp should not exceed the mid volume settings. This can be changed on the gain adjustments on the power amp which will allow higher volume levels. On my surround settings on my processor the max I need is at zero.
Great video as usual. I run my speakers (mainly my center and atmos speakers) above 0. I was afraid at first until you mentioned if your speakers aren't that efficient its ok. That's my situation and like you said I never crank my speakers up to reference level. I tend to run at half volume to slightly above the halfway point. Sometimes even lower than that.
This is different in car audio, you actually want to have your level at maximum, this puts more rca voltage to your amps, if you can have a higher signal you run less gain which is better for sound quality.
@@Kpaceguy correct, the signal to noise ratio is what I am talking about. You will have a stronger signal rather than noise when the level is higher. I definitely increased my sound quality by increasing my rca output voltage
As always, thanks for the education Kpaceguy. Seems like old video from your prior theater 😂👍🏽. Always picking up knowledge or inspiration from your videos.
It's real simple ... clipping kills tweeters. If you don't want to kill your tweeters keep those amplifiers below clipping level. It used to be that most decently powerful amplifiers had a lamp (or led) that would flicker on when you clip your amplifier, to warn you to turn it down. For some reason that has almost totally vanished from modern consumer equipment.
I have the opposite problem my speakers at 0db with a 75db test tone are 20 db to hot. I can’t even get my level down to 75db. So what should I do in that case? Am I losing anything having my levels at -15?
@@lyons0079 it's hard to say in your situation. Since you can't actually get to your 75db goal with the levels, maybe you can change what your "reference volume" is. So instead of 0db, make it -20db and set your speakers levels to 75db with the volume knob set to -20db. Now your -20db is your new 0db volume
You'll have to be aware that this might cause your receiver to go into digital or analog clipping if you try and turn the master level up to 0dB. However, as long as you don't turn the master level further up than a corresponding negative value (say you turn one speaker up +5 to measure 75 in your calibration), you're fine
@@iannottingham804 75db is not the reference, it’s the standard calibration target level used for residential HT, the calibration target level has no relation to reference playback levels
Great info. I have a Yamaha receiver. This might sound weird but how I did my levels, I used an SPL meter. Had the volume level to -20 for my max. Had the meter read the test tone 65db on all channels. My living room is 24x18. When playing an Atmos mix from blade runner 2049, the most I turn up my volume is -30. DTX mixes -25. And they hit good. No distortion
@Bryan-hd7nm Could be a couple reasons. 1) Your room is big 2) your speakers aren't efficient 3) You're using a receiver and need external amplification 4) Your room acoustics are poor 5) You're seating position is in a dead spot of the room
@@Bryan-hd7nm the most common reason is the distance between the speaker and chosen MLP + your speakers sensitivity, a more powerful amp won’t necessarily reduce the levels as ARC measures your speakers sensitivity sending 1w and measuring the output capability at the start of ARC in doing this is determines the speaker’s capabilities to reproduce 75db at the given MLP, ARC does not know it has 100w behind it or 1000w it begins with 1w and the given distance with the given sensitivity at 1w + distance
@vernonnutter1957 Sometimes, it just has to be this way, BUT if one speaker is very high compared to rest and they are in identical placements, something might be wrong.
@@vernonnutter1957 they don’t necessarily adjust levels for headroom, they are programmed to balance the system to a given level, if your speaker is set to +4db then it was made to do so to balance the system to an equal value which is generally 75db if your not sitting too far away with hard to drive speakers, if your speakers are easy to drive then for the average size room distance doesn’t really become a limiting factor.
@njrumenos audyssey multi eq x sets my heights at plus 10 when I select the headroom option. I have ran the calibration around 20 times with the same results because I like to tinker with it.
@@vernonnutter1957 sounds like you haven’t got the speakers aimed at the MLP, if you can try aiming the speakers at the MLP or at least the tweeter you might see the level drop some, anthem reduces the calibration target level from 75db down to what ever is necessary to get the speaker channels down to a suitable range, +10db is very high
I respectfully disagree with most of what is being said in this video - while it's true you shouldn't max anything out, I've been running surround receivers for decades with my fronts and rears set to +6dB and my center to +8dB, with no adverse affects at all. I even crank up the input level adjuster for sources to +10dB, and never experienced distortion. It's all about getting more powerful sounding levels at a lower master volume number.
Sorry but the video is correct ... the last thing you want to do is drive your amplifiers into clipping. In stereo systems I typically set master volume (usually in a computer or DAC) to maximum, then adjust the power amplifier to 85db spl. From there you control the actual listening level with the master volume. It works out nicely... amps don't clip or heat up, the music is loud and clear and the listener does not go deaf.
Just because YOU haven't over driven your speakers doesn't mean it's not possible. Go ahead and turn your receiver to max with your levels maxed out for a sustained period of time with demanding movies or music, and I bet you'll feel differently.
@@Kpaceguy The thing is that he's likely been listening to digital clipping (which can happen at very low levels) without even realizing it. More than once I've gone into a system and adjusted the channel levels to keep the same relationships but at less than 0db... that is, if you have one or two speakers set to (for example) +3db, turn everything down by 3db to prevent digital clipping. The most common response is "OMG that sounds so clear!" You might be surprised how much distortion people listen to without knowing it.
@@Kpaceguy I said I RESPECTFULLY disagreed - it's in MY experience that going into the plus values on the trims has been fine on my systems. And I never get anywhere NEAR max volume - that's a bit disingenuous to insinuate when I never hinted at that.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I NEVER drove my speakers into clipping with my settings - with the way I have it set up, I don't have to turn the volume up much to get an immersive experience.
I’m new to this hobby. What if I have a AV receiver that has no reference level, particularly the Sony STR-DH790. I run 7 speakers that are all 8ohms. 5 Klipsch for the bed layer and 2 Jamos for front height. I calibrated my system so many times and yet I still find the center channel to have low volume so I turned it up 1-2db that improved the dialogue. No heat in my AVR and no distortion. At least I don’t hear it. My center channel is a Klipsch R-25C if that helps.
@Ryankelby it's common to turn your center channel up a few DBs higher than everything else. I personally do it myself. Sometimes you have no choice but to go into the positive volume levels which isn't always bad especially if you're never really close to max volume.
@@Kpaceguy Okay, awesome! My AVR does not have the reference level settings but only 0-70. I usually keep it 15-30 depending on the content and it sounds great with the center channel adjustment. I was kind of worried after seeing your video but I’m good now 😅 Thanks for the response, keep up the content 👍🏽
You can change the volume scale in your settings, I had to do it with one of my avr's cause it was set to the "absolute scale" which is what yours is set to and I hate it. I like the "relative scale", which is what pretty much everyone uses.
@cbonner1964 I used to on some of my older receivers. Usually the center channel when that input always needed it. Nowadays all my sources are the same volume level so I don't raise them anymore. When I listen to 2ch stereo music with a subwoofer I'll raise the subwoofer trim a couple dB
@@KpaceguyHe's not referring to individual channel trims - he means the INPUT SOURCE, which can be controlled in Denon receivers (this used to be possible with Onkyos through a system called IntelliVolume, but the dummy company behind them now dropped it from their AVRs). It's like a power amp's input level control for each source connected to the receiver.
I can see maybe with the center and surrounds with clipping. But if you have efficient left and right that can handle 350 watts or higher . I don't see any problems maxing out your volume level. But I believe you have to have high end speakers 🔊
@bencancio914 It doesn't matter if your speakers can handle it. Your receiver can't and the receiver will send a clipped signal to your speakers and prematurely blow them.
FWIW .... you are far more likely to pop your tweeters by using an amplifier that can't produce the required sound levels without clipping. That is, on a 100 watt pair of speakers, you're more likely to pop your tweeters with a 20 watt amp than with a 200 watt amp. This is because the 20 watt amp will clip at much lower SPLs ... Clipping produces two effects that seriously mess with speakers. First it causes all kinds of harmonics (multiples of the note's frequency, which are audible) and second it tends to compress the top octaves of the audio band (5khz and up) which just adds to the high frequency energy being dumped onto your tweeter. Eventually the tweeter will overheat and die. Conversely, at the same SPL the 200 watt amp will not clip at all, the sound signature fed to your speakers will continue the normal musical decay and things tend to last a lot longer. It really is true that if you're blowing tweeters, you need a bigger amplifier.
my maranta sr8015 always has the default volume to -20 but if I level up the speakers using a db app its only like 67/68 db. do you increase the volume of the amp to like -12 or so to reach the 75db or you just leave it like that (67)db
@@Kpaceguy so you would raise it to like -10db and then reach the 75db mark on the speaker level? Audyssey calibrated the levels to like -5.5/ -5 isn’t that too low as well lol
I don’t think this is right, 0db on the volume knob is not your max amp output, output is determined on speaker sensitivity and distance to the mic with a doubling of power for every +3db, reference in anthem AVRs after calibration is completed for a 75db target is generally around -20 on the knob and depending on your speaker’s sensitivity and room size/ distance to mlp will determine your max output nothing to do with 0db
@@Kpaceguy if you had default setting with no calibration parameters in control you will still hit max amp wattage (100w) with a 88db sensitivity speaker connected sitting 5ft away at some where around -20 on the knob, this is not taking into consideration the speakers impedance requirements full bandwidth which is a whole other issue, it’s all got to do with the speaker’s sensitivity and distance sitting away from the speaker, now I can’t confirm if 100w is measured at 0db on the knob with no speaker connected but this really is a redundant factor in the equation.
@njrumenos Right. Some receivers default to turning the volume to 0db before running calibration like audessey used to, for example. But you don't have to set reference level to 0db. My anthem doesn't get turned past -25db. Plenty loud if not borderline too loud! But since there are many other factors in play and for the most understanding in this video, It helps to say that once you're past 0db, you're above limitations IF you're levels are too high
@@Kpaceguy yeah -25 on my 90 is pretty high, I do demo high quality content at -20 but it’s not desirable for long listening, my average level would be more like -30 for an entire movie. A lot of new people into this hobby need to learn more about sensitivity requirements, impedance sweeps and listening distances required before jumping out an buying a system, there is a lot to understand before committing, also distortion/compression plays a huge role in overall perceived loudness, the cleaner a speaker can play the louder you can listen comfortably.
You asked for opinions, so here's mine. I'm not trying to be mean, but you don't have even a basic understanding of how these products work. All this stuff about watts, volume and amplifier power is pure nonsense. Let me ask you a question. When you are adjusting volume, how high do you have to raise the volume before you distort or damage the signal?
There is no set volume. You reach limitations faster when everything is cranked. This video isn't supposed to be super technical. If you push towards max volume and your levels are also maxed out, expect to clip. That's it. You run out of power and the signal turns into heat. That's it.
Ummm ... I'm a 40 year experienced electronics technician and, while I hate to burst your bubble, I gotta tell you @Kpaceguy is a lot closer to the truth than you are. There is, by design, a fixed relationship between volume control position and amplifier power and that relationship exists to prevent you from killing speakers or damaging amplifiers.
Hey Kyle, I have a Sony str-dn1080 av receiver and after autocale it sets my subwoofer to 8.0. The bass was way too boomy, so I tuned it down to 2.0 db and it blends perfectly with my LCR channels which are the Sony sscs5 bookshelf speakers. I had them crossed over at 80hz, but now I have them crossed at 70hz and they actually sounds better now. I never listen at reference level or volume over 25 so the speakers are pretty loud with no distortion and the subwoofer LFE sounds like it’s coming from the speakers now. You are absolutely right about an 80hz crossover might not be good for everyone! Thanks for informing us audio amateurs 🤣🤣🤣 and keep up the great work
I appreciate it my friend!
In a two channel speaker system the preamp should not exceed the mid volume settings. This can be changed on the gain adjustments on the power amp which will allow higher volume levels. On my surround settings on my processor the max I need is at zero.
Great video as usual. I run my speakers (mainly my center and atmos speakers) above 0. I was afraid at first until you mentioned if your speakers aren't that efficient its ok. That's my situation and like you said I never crank my speakers up to reference level. I tend to run at half volume to slightly above the halfway point. Sometimes even lower than that.
You should be good my man!
@@Kpaceguy awesome! Thanks bro💪🏾
This is different in car audio, you actually want to have your level at maximum, this puts more rca voltage to your amps, if you can have a higher signal you run less gain which is better for sound quality.
@SoberBassHead what "level" are you referring to? Like the head unit level say maybe subwoofer level?
@@Kpaceguy correct, the signal to noise ratio is what I am talking about. You will have a stronger signal rather than noise when the level is higher. I definitely increased my sound quality by increasing my rca output voltage
As always, thanks for the education Kpaceguy. Seems like old video from your prior theater 😂👍🏽. Always picking up knowledge or inspiration from your videos.
It's real simple ... clipping kills tweeters. If you don't want to kill your tweeters keep those amplifiers below clipping level.
It used to be that most decently powerful amplifiers had a lamp (or led) that would flicker on when you clip your amplifier, to warn you to turn it down. For some reason that has almost totally vanished from modern consumer equipment.
I have the opposite problem my speakers at 0db with a 75db test tone are 20 db to hot. I can’t even get my level down to 75db. So what should I do in that case? Am I losing anything having my levels at -15?
Nope. Sometimes you can't do anything about it
@@Kpaceguy so my reference would be -15 db on the volume or still 0?
@@lyons0079 it's hard to say in your situation. Since you can't actually get to your 75db goal with the levels, maybe you can change what your "reference volume" is. So instead of 0db, make it -20db and set your speakers levels to 75db with the volume knob set to -20db. Now your -20db is your new 0db volume
I have a question, I had to increase the level.of my speakers in order to reach 75db for reference level, what about that??
@@iannottingham804 that's exactly what you're supposed to do so good job there.
If you sit farther away to get to 75db you might have to go above 0. I have +2-3 on some but I'm 13-15' away from some of mine.
You'll have to be aware that this might cause your receiver to go into digital or analog clipping if you try and turn the master level up to 0dB. However, as long as you don't turn the master level further up than a corresponding negative value (say you turn one speaker up +5 to measure 75 in your calibration), you're fine
@@iannottingham804 75db is not the reference, it’s the standard calibration target level used for residential HT, the calibration target level has no relation to reference playback levels
Great info. I have a Yamaha receiver. This might sound weird but how I did my levels, I used an SPL meter. Had the volume level to -20 for my max. Had the meter read the test tone 65db on all channels. My living room is 24x18. When playing an Atmos mix from blade runner 2049, the most I turn up my volume is -30. DTX mixes -25. And they hit good. No distortion
Great video! So why does my anthem calibrated my speakers to plus 5.5 ?
@Bryan-hd7nm Could be a couple reasons.
1) Your room is big
2) your speakers aren't efficient
3) You're using a receiver and need external amplification
4) Your room acoustics are poor
5) You're seating position is in a dead spot of the room
@@Bryan-hd7nm the most common reason is the distance between the speaker and chosen MLP + your speakers sensitivity, a more powerful amp won’t necessarily reduce the levels as ARC measures your speakers sensitivity sending 1w and measuring the output capability at the start of ARC in doing this is determines the speaker’s capabilities to reproduce 75db at the given MLP, ARC does not know it has 100w behind it or 1000w it begins with 1w and the given distance with the given sensitivity at 1w + distance
Always educating me. Thank ya good sir.
What about if the calibration adjusts the levels for headroom which puts the speakers in the positive region
@vernonnutter1957 Sometimes, it just has to be this way, BUT if one speaker is very high compared to rest and they are in identical placements, something might be wrong.
@@vernonnutter1957 they don’t necessarily adjust levels for headroom, they are programmed to balance the system to a given level, if your speaker is set to +4db then it was made to do so to balance the system to an equal value which is generally 75db if your not sitting too far away with hard to drive speakers, if your speakers are easy to drive then for the average size room distance doesn’t really become a limiting factor.
@njrumenos audyssey multi eq x sets my heights at plus 10 when I select the headroom option. I have ran the calibration around 20 times with the same results because I like to tinker with it.
@@vernonnutter1957 sounds like you haven’t got the speakers aimed at the MLP, if you can try aiming the speakers at the MLP or at least the tweeter you might see the level drop some, anthem reduces the calibration target level from 75db down to what ever is necessary to get the speaker channels down to a suitable range, +10db is very high
I respectfully disagree with most of what is being said in this video - while it's true you shouldn't max anything out, I've been running surround receivers for decades with my fronts and rears set to +6dB and my center to +8dB, with no adverse affects at all. I even crank up the input level adjuster for sources to +10dB, and never experienced distortion. It's all about getting more powerful sounding levels at a lower master volume number.
Sorry but the video is correct ... the last thing you want to do is drive your amplifiers into clipping.
In stereo systems I typically set master volume (usually in a computer or DAC) to maximum, then adjust the power amplifier to 85db spl. From there you control the actual listening level with the master volume. It works out nicely... amps don't clip or heat up, the music is loud and clear and the listener does not go deaf.
Just because YOU haven't over driven your speakers doesn't mean it's not possible. Go ahead and turn your receiver to max with your levels maxed out for a sustained period of time with demanding movies or music, and I bet you'll feel differently.
@@Kpaceguy
The thing is that he's likely been listening to digital clipping (which can happen at very low levels) without even realizing it.
More than once I've gone into a system and adjusted the channel levels to keep the same relationships but at less than 0db... that is, if you have one or two speakers set to (for example) +3db, turn everything down by 3db to prevent digital clipping. The most common response is "OMG that sounds so clear!"
You might be surprised how much distortion people listen to without knowing it.
@@Kpaceguy I said I RESPECTFULLY disagreed - it's in MY experience that going into the plus values on the trims has been fine on my systems. And I never get anywhere NEAR max volume - that's a bit disingenuous to insinuate when I never hinted at that.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I NEVER drove my speakers into clipping with my settings - with the way I have it set up, I don't have to turn the volume up much to get an immersive experience.
I’m new to this hobby. What if I have a AV receiver that has no reference level, particularly the Sony STR-DH790. I run 7 speakers that are all 8ohms. 5 Klipsch for the bed layer and 2 Jamos for front height. I calibrated my system so many times and yet I still find the center channel to have low volume so I turned it up 1-2db that improved the dialogue. No heat in my AVR and no distortion. At least I don’t hear it. My center channel is a Klipsch R-25C if that helps.
@Ryankelby it's common to turn your center channel up a few DBs higher than everything else. I personally do it myself. Sometimes you have no choice but to go into the positive volume levels which isn't always bad especially if you're never really close to max volume.
@@Kpaceguy Okay, awesome! My AVR does not have the reference level settings but only 0-70. I usually keep it 15-30 depending on the content and it sounds great with the center channel adjustment. I was kind of worried after seeing your video but I’m good now 😅 Thanks for the response, keep up the content 👍🏽
@@Ryankelby I appreciate it
You can change the volume scale in your settings, I had to do it with one of my avr's cause it was set to the "absolute scale" which is what yours is set to and I hate it. I like the "relative scale", which is what pretty much everyone uses.
@@randysalsman6992 you can't change it in some sonys
Hmmm, good reason to dis AVR'S 😮
@@CarlVanDoren61 possibly!
Do you increase your input trim ? Thx
@cbonner1964 I used to on some of my older receivers. Usually the center channel when that input always needed it. Nowadays all my sources are the same volume level so I don't raise them anymore. When I listen to 2ch stereo music with a subwoofer I'll raise the subwoofer trim a couple dB
@@KpaceguyHe's not referring to individual channel trims - he means the INPUT SOURCE, which can be controlled in Denon receivers (this used to be possible with Onkyos through a system called IntelliVolume, but the dummy company behind them now dropped it from their AVRs).
It's like a power amp's input level control for each source connected to the receiver.
I definitely do - with my old Onkyo, I set my Blu-ray player input to "+10dB" and on my new Denon 2800, I keep the Blu-ray input on the same.
I can see maybe with the center and surrounds with clipping. But if you have efficient left and right that can handle 350 watts or higher . I don't see any problems maxing out your volume level. But I believe you have to have high end speakers 🔊
@bencancio914 It doesn't matter if your speakers can handle it. Your receiver can't and the receiver will send a clipped signal to your speakers and prematurely blow them.
@@Kpaceguydidn't know that .. damn I'll watch out then 👍
FWIW .... you are far more likely to pop your tweeters by using an amplifier that can't produce the required sound levels without clipping. That is, on a 100 watt pair of speakers, you're more likely to pop your tweeters with a 20 watt amp than with a 200 watt amp.
This is because the 20 watt amp will clip at much lower SPLs ... Clipping produces two effects that seriously mess with speakers. First it causes all kinds of harmonics (multiples of the note's frequency, which are audible) and second it tends to compress the top octaves of the audio band (5khz and up) which just adds to the high frequency energy being dumped onto your tweeter. Eventually the tweeter will overheat and die.
Conversely, at the same SPL the 200 watt amp will not clip at all, the sound signature fed to your speakers will continue the normal musical decay and things tend to last a lot longer.
It really is true that if you're blowing tweeters, you need a bigger amplifier.
my maranta sr8015 always has the default volume to -20 but if I level up the speakers using a db app its only like 67/68 db. do you increase the volume of the amp to like -12 or so to reach the 75db or you just leave it like that (67)db
@@danielbarroqueiro2282 I'd personally raise the volume overall unless you want -20db to be your 75db point
@@Kpaceguy so you would raise it to like -10db and then reach the 75db mark on the speaker level? Audyssey calibrated the levels to like -5.5/ -5 isn’t that too low as well lol
@@danielbarroqueiro2282 Yes that's what I would do
I don’t think this is right, 0db on the volume knob is not your max amp output, output is determined on speaker sensitivity and distance to the mic with a doubling of power for every +3db, reference in anthem AVRs after calibration is completed for a 75db target is generally around -20 on the knob and depending on your speaker’s sensitivity and room size/ distance to mlp will determine your max output nothing to do with 0db
You're right. It depends on how you choose to calibrate. It's not a set n stone rule, but it is a general industry guide.
@@Kpaceguy if you had default setting with no calibration parameters in control you will still hit max amp wattage (100w) with a 88db sensitivity speaker connected sitting 5ft away at some where around -20 on the knob, this is not taking into consideration the speakers impedance requirements full bandwidth which is a whole other issue, it’s all got to do with the speaker’s sensitivity and distance sitting away from the speaker, now I can’t confirm if 100w is measured at 0db on the knob with no speaker connected but this really is a redundant factor in the equation.
@njrumenos Right. Some receivers default to turning the volume to 0db before running calibration like audessey used to, for example. But you don't have to set reference level to 0db. My anthem doesn't get turned past -25db. Plenty loud if not borderline too loud! But since there are many other factors in play and for the most understanding in this video, It helps to say that once you're past 0db, you're above limitations IF you're levels are too high
@@Kpaceguy yeah -25 on my 90 is pretty high, I do demo high quality content at -20 but it’s not desirable for long listening, my average level would be more like -30 for an entire movie. A lot of new people into this hobby need to learn more about sensitivity requirements, impedance sweeps and listening distances required before jumping out an buying a system, there is a lot to understand before committing, also distortion/compression plays a huge role in overall perceived loudness, the cleaner a speaker can play the louder you can listen comfortably.
IT should correspond to the max output level of your amplifiers ... what your speakers do is irrelevant.
You asked for opinions, so here's mine. I'm not trying to be mean, but you don't have even a basic understanding of how these products work. All this stuff about watts, volume and amplifier power is pure nonsense. Let me ask you a question. When you are adjusting volume, how high do you have to raise the volume before you distort or damage the signal?
There is no set volume. You reach limitations faster when everything is cranked. This video isn't supposed to be super technical. If you push towards max volume and your levels are also maxed out, expect to clip. That's it. You run out of power and the signal turns into heat. That's it.
Ummm ... I'm a 40 year experienced electronics technician and, while I hate to burst your bubble, I gotta tell you @Kpaceguy is a lot closer to the truth than you are.
There is, by design, a fixed relationship between volume control position and amplifier power and that relationship exists to prevent you from killing speakers or damaging amplifiers.