Stop Doing This if You're with a Narcissist
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- 00:00 Stop Doing This if You're with a Narcissist
00:40 Defining Echoism (Take the test!)
01:47 Don't do this with a Narcissist!
03:27 Where You Learned the "Figuring Out" Strategy
04:39 Seeing the Problem More Clearly
06:52 Do this Instead :-)
One trap for #echoists when it comes to leaving bad (narcissistic) relationships is a species of self-blame: the figuring out response. "I wonder if s/he meant it? Does s/he have NPD? Was that real?" The reality is that echoists learned this strategy in their family of origin. Rather than being encouraged to trust their gut, they're often pushed to try to think about what their narcissistic caregiver is thinking or doing or feeling--in other words what makes them tick. But in healthy loving relationships, if someone does something upsetting or disappointing, we're not expected to think about why or try to prevent future hurts by understanding the psychology of the person we're close to. Healthy intimacy involves saying "ouch" when hurt.
If your son or daughter was hurt by a friend, you likely wouldn't ask them "Why do you think they did that? or What do you think they were thinking? Or do you think they did it on purpose?" You'd say, I'm so sorry. That must have really hurt." And comfort them. But #echoists had to survive experiences by hoping that if they figured out their narcissistic caregivers they, themselves, could prevent being hurt. And as adults they often do the same with their partners. I
It's not your job to figure anyone out but yourself. And doing so is often a well-cultivated habit, to protect yourself from attack after simply saying ouch--and protect narcissistic friends and partners from feeling hurt simply because you dare to say "I didn't like that."
Recognize the figuring out response as what it is-- and always was: yet another way of shouldering responsibility for someone else's bad behaviors.
For more on echoism, see:
www.psychologytoday.com/us/bl...
blogs.psychcentral.com/knotte...
tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/...
AMAZON: www.amazon.com/dp/0062348116/...
ITUNES/APPLE: books.apple.com/br/book/rethi...
BARNES & NOBLE: www.barnesandnoble.com/noresu...
INDIEBOUND: www.indiebound.org/book/97800...
BOOKS-A-MILLION: www.booksamillion.com/p/Rethi...
HARPERCOLLINS: www.harpercollins.com/product...
www.drcraigmalkin.com
It's that feeling of not being validated. I don't remember a time when the narcissist parent ever said to me that they were sorry for saying what they said, or that their actions must have hurt. Rather, they would make excuses or say something that made me feel I had no right to feel that way. It's just not feeling validated. That's the struggle and the trigger.
Light bulb moment ... healing is not reliant on knowing them but about knowing us. Hurt is hurt with or without a label of narcissism and asking myself how I really feel will be duly noted. Thank you , I always learn something new here.
The figuring out by researching on you tube actually helped me to leave who I thought was the love of my life . I’d known him for 30 years . It was all a narcs illusion . The confusion made me search for the truth . I’m still not sure if he’s a narc ( I don’t really care anymore ) but it’s taught me to know my worth( I’ve figured that out at least ) , what’s real and what’s toxic . I’m so grateful for all the videos and information that has opened my eyes to the fact I was caring more about someone else than myself .
💛💚💛
Yes! *We've been conditioned to constantly adjust* to the unusual and odd responses of others. In the process, *we diminish and devalue ourselves as, in our minds, we are constantly evaluating things, and its EXHAUSTING!*
The best strategy to finally deal with a “Narcissist “ is to simply walk away which I learned to do from my personal experience and you know what...... I am absolutely more happier and stress free from this individual and as a result of my action I can enjoy life very positively with absolutely no negative intervention from that individual!
Try it!
I agree. Whether it's relatives or friends...they will never change. You will hear the same tired old phrases faulting you for their abuse for a century of you let them. No contact is the only thing that will give you peace of mind.
Knowing your truth is enough. You don't need to seek validation from anyone.
Enormous light bulb moment!
The figuring out response…..I’m currently so deep in that rabbit hole. Really deep! Trying to “figure out” my husband. Then wow! My childhood with a narcissist mother and an alcoholic step dad and non-existent father…. as a child I was trying desperately to “figure out” adults that gave me reasons/excuses.
Not sure if Echoism is akin to co-narcissism, but I really appreciate you not calling it that. Feeling more highly attuned to others’ needs and down playing your own may put you at risk for narcissistic exploitation, but it doesn’t make you a willing accomplice.
FINALLY. Of all the rambling videos on narcissism out there, this is truly effective therapy. Thank you.
So glad you found it helpful
DING DING DING!!!!! We have a winner!!!!
Spot on 1000%!!!!
I think the "figuring out response" is the worst part of the whole process 😔 it's just a state of denial of what is true and obvious! After passing through this stage everything that seemed mattered before would feel so empty and meaningless
Wow, figuring out is definitely something I spent a LOT of time doing. Great insight, thank you 🙏🏻
That is a really good retake on the reparenting strategy, which can feel awkward sometimes. I would also like to add that the “figuring it out” response has an expanded subset of definitions/actions to explore, such as chasing after the other person and doing everything to “understand.” It feeds narcissistic supply and when it becomes our go-to action in other relationships comes off as needy or too much. Often, we recognize when we have reached out enough because it feels awkward (we know what is healthy) but extend ourselves out via empathy and push that action into unhealthy chasing and fixing because maybe they had trauma, too, etc; then you can open yourself up to a repeating toxic pattern in a relationship or further abuse. (Abusers will still abuse, and in more toxic scenarios, you were in survival mode; it is OKAY.)
Sometimes, we just need to stop. And that is hard. It is hard to decide if we should leave the door open with someone who may have garden variety narcissistic traits but expresses moments of self awareness but is triggered, too... However, we are not responsible for regulating their emotions. If a connection is reciprocal, maybe... we can extend ourselves some more. But we have to protect our precious energy and time. Do not gaslight yourself.
Spent half my life trying to “figure out” why my parents and sibling did what they did. Thanks for the tip.
I started watching this some days ago but got distracted (typical) and finally finished it. Like, you deserve to be paid for this work because it's that valuable. "It's not your job to figure anyone out but yourself." That's a million dollar sentence, dude!
This year marks 16 years since I walked on my narcissist husband. I married him when I was 22. That was pretty dumb. I put Echo to shame in those years. By the end as the devaluing got bad, I actually asked my therapist, "How much of this man's happiness am I responsible for??" My 45 year old self looks back at that and shakes her head, relieved that it took me very little time to learn that the answer to that was zero. But I mean I was asking those questions. Nobody owes an abuser *anything.*
The thing is, when you work on yourself, you start to BECOME that partner that others are looking for. I knew that I couldn't fix anyone (people aren't cars), only myself (my mom taught me that and it was a painful lesson), so at that point you're classifying what kind of brokenness you have on your hands. Which ultimately doesn't really matter. I noticed after I shifted my focus to myself that the men I started seeing were healthier, kinder, smarter, and just overall better people...and then I met my now husband and never looked back.
No Greek mythology here - just two crazy cat people who know how to have lots of fun together, which is the point. I'll leave the drama to Ovid.
Thank you so so much for this video Dr. Craig - you're still helping people who are far along in their journey to mental health and have "made it" but still need to hear reassuring words once in awahile.
What a wonderful, insightful comment. Thank you !
Wow!! Seriously wish I understood this years ago
Thank you. I have been doing this for quite some time. I had no idea until just now. It's quite confronting and scary to think of the alternative, to think of what I need rather than to think about what their behaviors meant in an attempt to make sense and peace with it.
So helpful. I have just figured this out that I have done this. That I have made excuses for the way the narcissists in my life treat me. It takes so much courage now to put those boundaries in place but I'm doing it !! And my sense of self is flourishing. Thank you for confirming that ..good to put a definition to it
This was by far the most helpful material I have heard yet! I’m buying your book right now! I hope it is as helpful to me as your videos! Please never stop doing what you do for so very many people! I know people mean to be supportive when I turn to them as I try my best to cope with the overwhelming sadness confusion anger and pain that came along with this malignant narcissistic relationship I’m in, but it comes off as if it’s as easy as tying my shoes. They tend to yell at me for being so tangled up in the idea of this person being narcissistic Personally, I feel like I need to know the reason a person is capable of doing such gruesome things to someone they claim to love in order for me to be capable of detaching from them. I guess it does help me cope in a sense, but it actually empowers me to muster up enough strength to leave the relationship. The area I struggle in is what is wrong with me that I keep sticking around & allowing these types of people to treat me so horrible. Maybe I should start searching for reasons & explanations on myself. 😔
The most enlightening video i've seen on recovering from toxic narcissistic relationship so far. And, as you underlined in the video, you know i've seen many in the last month. You gave me some precious insights in this speech to reflect on. - Italy
I’m so glad I could help in some way :-)
This was brilliant thank you. Great to start the healing process and inner child work. I had an abusive mother and married to a covert narcissist
This was beautiful. Thank you.
Thanks Craig, I agree, there is so much out there on what Narcissism is, but not much of it is really useful to helping me deal with it on an emotional level.
Dr. Malkin, thankful that you're doing videos again. Would love to have you as a guest on Ars Longa Media's Healthy // Toxic or Cluster B podcast...
Stay in touch. I’m slowly returning to doing interviews and obviously RUclips. Things have been crazy at home but are finally settling down a little
The verbal and physical abuse from the malignant narcissist alcoholic ex I divorced became normalized as it was so frequent
He manipulated coercively controlled and conditioned us eventually creating trauma bonds and cognitive dissonance with my children and I
He has similar relatives in a narcissist cult like family where the damaging hurtful insults towards myself and my children that came from a vulgar loud mouth uncle or the father in law were always laughed at or dismissed by the family members as
“Oh he’s just joking.. that’s just how my dad.. or brother is”
With their insecure jealous bully mentalities that they can dish it out but can’t take it
Thank you and so true. I am a narcissist survivor from a cluster narcissistic family. It took me at least 1 years to remove guilt, shame and the obligation to do for toxic people. I am still not 100% recovered. For example a co-worker cancelled the 3rd meeting since last week today. I found myself preoccupied with her needs and way too much empathy and care for her, when I have work to do, and she hasn’t even given an excuse as to why 😞
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People pleasing. You need to fix that pronto!
Put the ball back in her court but be neutral and factual; focus on the “sorry but deadlines to meet” point and ask her to supply the specifics of different times. You can say that you usually leave 30 mins open flexibly after lunch on Tuesdays and Thursdays but specify to others that it must be 24 hours in advance notice. But ball, her court. Document it all.
More great info and very important topic. I've spent a while unlearning the figuring out response but it's so worth it. ❤️
🤯 So...I'm definitely an echo. And I in fact found the narcissist rabbithole...it's the WHY...after being so wildly mistreated it's like my brain needs to understand WHY.
I was married 21 years to an abusive alcoholic narcissist who was angry..secretive and mean..I divorced him after 15 years ...He promised to change ..like a fool I believed him..he got worse 2nd time around..I became a nonentity with no name..no identity and was invisible..I hit a wall...decided I would rather be homeless ..lose everything and starve than be married to him..our state is no-fault..I got the kids..house ..car and half the bills..I spent 10 years alone raising my children. enjoying my freedom and those years were the happiest years of my life..I regret nothing...was it easy? No but we survived ..I wouldn't be who I am had I not known him and had my kids..I got heavy duty counseling..took relationship classes..after my kids grew up and left home I remarried my ex's complete opposite.. he's my soul mate my friend and partner..life is good
Thanks for putting work out there for Échos!!!!
No excuses!
I have spent so much time ‘figuring it out’ but I know deep down what the problem is.
Love the content of these last videos - simple concepts to use in what’s been such a confusing situation. Thanks!
You’re so welcome!
“The Science of Stuck” by Britt Frank is an EXCELLENT new book on this topic. Exceptional! Informed and helpful!!! Check it out at your local library!! Best wishes fellow journeyers!
Please speak more on the “figuring out” response from the child’s point of view looking at the parent. FYI I’m clearly an adult now in my 40’s
What a mind shift. Thank you.
You’re welcome!
Light bulb. My dad was extremely harsh, mean, unloving, and never even hugged me, or even talked to me, unless it was a special occasion and he Had to. My mom didn't ever even once try to console me. I was left alone with the hurt and the pain, and could never understand why my own dad didn't love me. I heard him say things to my mom like , I wish we never had these kids. I felt like I shouldn't have even existed. I had no value or worth whatsoever. This is the first time I ever heard of echoism. Then came the unhelpful counseling in my early adult life, where I was told that I needed to realize that my dad was under alot of stress and I needed to show him sympathy and bake him a cake. I actually worked for him, and that was one of the worst things I could have done for my growth and self esteem as he treated me horrible at work and humiliated me in front of my co-workers whenever I tried to speak up. My co-workers knew it was difficult to communicate with my dad , so they begged me to on their behalf , saying to me , your his daughter , he'll listen to you. Well, their mouths all dropped to the floor at how badly my dad screamed at , and criticized me in front of all of them , then stormed out of the door, which I knew would happen. So fast forward , my NPD boyfriend was there to " rescue" me from my dysfunctional family situation, during a time in my life that I had no self esteem at all, and even though I knew my boyfriend had shown me so many red flags, I still believed him when he said he cared about me. Fast forward 31 years later, I realize I married a man like my dad. I am just learning what a true NPD is, and had a hard time realizing I was even being emotionally abused by him until this past year, when I found out he was going to discard me, just because I was starting to mirror his bad behavior back to him and he couldn't handle it. I always try to figure out the why of people's actions. I live deep in a shell of myself, of not having ever had my needs met, to the point I will not speak up even in a friendship relationship when I'm hurt for fear of being rejected as this has been happening my entire life. And I have said to my daughter when someone has hurt her, to think about the other person and maybe why they did what they did. Although I did learn to tell her I am sorry , and validate her, but I didn't even realize until this moment how badly that must have hurt her. Why do I always think of the other person above me? My voice , needs, feelings don't matter, but the other person's does. I was never validated my entire life. I am hurting beyond words and I need to grow and move away from this toxic, harmful marriage , while People outside my life, have continued to invalidate me , telling me that I need to love more, and try harder with this man who never truly cared about me at all. This has hurt me even worst, as I tend to invalidate my own feelings and punish myself by staying in this toxic environment for so many years. I just realized, today, that I have reigned myself in entire life. And now I am 54 years old and while I am trying to leave this marriage , he is trying to financially destroy me to further control me, while doing an entire smear campaign of lies against me. I don't even know myself as I have always done everything for everyone else, including running his business books, as he has no clue how to , but this is not what I even like to do, yet he has called me controlling ,because I Have no other choice but to control the finances as he doesn't have a clue. I should have let it all collapse years ago, but I felt I married him, I owed him. I don't even know what I want to do with my life and I need to figure it out immediately because he is purposely bleeding his business. I will end up with nothing. So on top of his betrayal and affair , I have to try to figure out how I am going to survive.
Thx! This was brilliant advice. Definitely checking out your book. Hope you keep up with the vids!
I’m planning on doing them weekly now. It’s easy enough for me to sit down in front of the computer and share some thoughts for 5 to 10 minutes. And the least I can do to contribute free support to the community
I hope you love Rethinking Narcissism!
@@CraigMalkin That's wonderful. And if your videos are anything to go by, I'm sure I'll love the book. Thanks for all your work. This subject is not covered enough, so it's such a valuable resource when you find an informed opinion comment on it.
Addicted to figuring it out. Thank you 🙏 for pointing it out in your presentation. Poor me, I thought I was “educating myself “ … 😢
thank you very much, could you please explain more how to cope with these abusive behaviours specialy at work place
So helpful. Thank you for sharing your knowledge
Currently “figuring out”
gosh... wow... this really makes sense, and what is going on in me isn't actually weird or complicated... and I can see how this technique can maybe stop it... and just seeing it helps... I think this is really going to change things for me... thank you
Really helpful content
If a heart can smile, mine just did..♡
HI CRAIG
YOU ARE LIKE NONE ELSE ON HERE.
THANK YOU PLEASE GO INTO MUCH MORE DEPTH THOUGH,
i AM LEFT UNCLEAR AND FELL IT IS WORTH A MUCH DEEPER DIVE PLEASE.
MUCH APPRECIATED .
ANGELA IN MONTANA
Beautifully put. I feel a sense of calmness wash over me as if, finally I do not have to justify their behavior any more or feel guilty for ‘figuring out’ even!!
Grateful for the content shared 🙏
Hahahahahahahahahhahaha. Spent months. This was the most actionable advice yet. Thank you so much.
Dont make excuses for them!!!!
Eww. I've said this, even pre-empting him coming home snd "warning" the kids...sigh.
Any advice on an elderly parent with a chronic illness- does someone with a chronic illness display dramatic responses due to the stress of the illness and or depression due to it. It’s very difficult to discern what’s what if that makes sense? Mum was always dramatic though and grandad ( mums father) was very narcissistic/borderline
Eureka... we don't need to understand why they do it and think what we would recommend to our own child... that's an aha moment for me
Mum lied in a pyschitrist appointment later came to me to say she lied. So i rang mental health team to update them. They turned around and asked me well what was she thinking why do you think she lied. I replied in sorry cant get inside her head,, ive no idea.
It’s so difficult when your parent has a long term health condition and you can’t distinguish is this a normal response to having this Keillor is it a cluster B response? 😥
How can I book a session
I’m currently dating someone or trying to break the trauma bond that’s been created. He went from sweet and kind to getting worse and worse and worse. I do not understand where this has come from. He won’t get any help, I am getting help with my issues and problems while he sits at his home saying he’s unwell all the time. Any tips on what to do?
Leave. Don't marry him. Get out. He was love bombing you and now you are seeing the REAL him.
Run & run fast!!!! Get out now!!!
Well then. I’m done.
Oops, I would say that. (Why so u think they're doung that) I do say that. I try to help my daughter see that others behaviour is about them and their struggles not her. That they needed to feel big or powerful. So we can laugh at how silly their words/behaviour is and not give them what they're seeking. So she can keep the power for herself. I will not let her be destroyed as they destroyed me. Oh dear.. i think i need some help.
Luckily, I also say sorry and that she didn't deserve that and validate her feelings around it
Now that I know what I need at 43 years old and have stopped blaming myself for everything... I have to accept that I won't get what I need anyway.
If you're with a narcissist, especially over a serious or long-term basis, you too are somewhere on the narcissism spectrum. I hope this message gets to the people whose denial needs to be torn down so they can reflect on themselves too.
Everyone is somewhere on the spectrum according to research.
Yes, we all have narcissistic traits as supported by research, some more than others. “Narcissistic traits” differ from “narcissism...” However, that is a sweeping statement made regarding narcissism and long-term entanglements. Do you have the research links or have observed experiences that support this assertion? It would be interesting to read.
Here is a broad generalization of my own from reading... I recall that many children of narcissistic parents either tend to have more empathy/emotional reactivity or go the route of developing great narcissistic traits as coping mechanisms...or even learning by example to survive/thrive.
@@tchaney3777 Yes that’s the majority of what I write about. I introduced the term echoism to the popular culture. Narcissism is a trait, correct. At the extreme end, we find pathological narcissism. Thanks for your comment!
@@CraigMalkin Ah... pathological is the missing adjective and terminology I am looking for! It is just to generally call someone a narcissist is frowned upon, without proper diagnosis; correct? That is why I phrased things that way. I have read Rethinking Narcissism. I appreciate the introduction of echoism.
Thank you, Dr. Craig. You always provide such amazing insight for us to explore and heal ❤️🩹