In fairness to Cap, he doesn't know the ships so he probably did think it was a fair fight based on missile counts and such. Once he gets more familiar with the ships ages/timelines I suspect fights will become better balanced.
Aegis was like a Generational leap in AAW capability. I'm not sure you COULD saturate it - only by having so many targets that the firecontrol / missle launchers couldn't keep up.
I hate how much everyone is complaining! This beautiful man has put a lot of effort in, with limited resources, to give us entertainment and all everyone can do is moan. If you can do better, please feel free. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it. Thanks for all the work cap!
Because he's a liar. he said the fight would be fair and it wasnt. Can you put two ships from different generations up against each other and expected them to perform on equal levels. That's like expecting an old man to be able to beat a young man. I don't care how much work you put into it. Stop glazing its a bad look.
Or maybe let's let the Soviets have a chance by giving them a totally made up carrier that never made it past the napkin drawing...oh wait...he did that for them last week
@@joed1015 or don't do it although god and truth is Oryel is basically Kuznetsov if it wasn't made half-assed. I really don't understand why the hell they added him to this game instead of Kuznetsov or even the damn Ulyanovsk. The funniest thing in all of this is the ability of the Soviet Politburo to throw billion-dollar projects to the trash bin. advanced stage because they got bored with the concept. If, instead of changing tactical assumptions every other Sunday, they had simply stuck to Project 1160 or even the modernized Project 1143 (because the example of "Baku"/"Vikramaditya" shows that they could easily be converted into full-fledged aircraft carriers and without such contortions and perinatal shocks as with Kuznetsov ) then they could probably have had a fleet of a dozen or so aircraft carriers by the mid-1990s.
True, but realistically the Kirovs would be hopelessly outnumbered. I don’t think they ever made more than a total of four, and I’m not sure they’re all seaworthy currently
Why don't you fight 4 US Belknap Class CG's against four Soviet Kynda Class CGs? They are much more evenly based platforms. both have 8 surface-to-surface, both have 1 twin mount air-to air launcher, Belknap's have a single 5" gun placement vs. Kynda's two twin 76mm guns (means nothing). Belknap's uses standard search radars (before AEGIS system), same as Kynda's. Biggest difference is that Belknap's have SM2ER's instead of MR's. I was stationed on a Belknap Class CG, so I would find this very interesting.
Kynda Kresta class Rocket Cruisers were blatantly obsolete by the late 70's. Only the most Ignorant americans forget this. Their SS-N-3 SHADDOCK cruise missiles were obsolete due to AN/SLQ32 EW and SM2MR/SM2ER variants. Long Beach CGN-9 with Armored Box Launchers and 2 RAM and MK10 TERRIER launchers could Sink Kynda and Kresta Rocket Cruisers by itself. The Top Sail, Big Net radars would require ESM support to be able to provide a firing solution to engage I coming TASM. Besides Long Beach could get with HARPOON range of those decrepit ships by the late 70's. Too many IGNORANT americans who aren't SURFACE WARRIORS! SHOOTING THEIR MOUTH OFF! GM AND FC TRAINED COLD WAR VETERAN BB61 87-90
In the last video you said the Virginia was an Aegis ship but they were NOT. It was an intended upgrade in the 90's except the cold war came to an end. Pics I've seen made them even more beautiful. The SPY-1 radar also gives it a major edge.
@@madrabbit9007you are correct. Most of those ships were pushing 30 years old by the . Those of us not assimilated by the Aegis borg cube were excited about it, it sounded good at the time.
Virginia class CGN was to be the Basis for CSGN STRIKE CRUISER WITH UPGRADED AEGIS. YET VIRGINIA CLASS CGN COST 150 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR TO OPERATE! THATS WHY THE CSGN WAS CANCELLED ANDNYOU UAVE THE AEGIS GARBAGE OF TODAY
I had the great pleasure to do a cross-pol with a Tico class in the late 1980's. Their ops room compared to our tech was like visiting the Starship Enterprise! They ran a sim (something we couldn't do) and we were so incredibly impressed with the Aegis system. Very capable to say the least.
Grim Reaper was like: "Why did the WW1 cruisers / aircraft get absolutely destroyed by the WW2 cruisers / aircraft? It's a fair fight!" That's the kind of time difference the ships and their system have between them. With the aircraft example it just gets even more obvious. 1950s weapons against 1980s weapons is as unfair as it gets in this game
Love this battle! I spent some years on the early Aegis CGs. I think the harpoons would have came in from different directions. As far as the early baseline Aegis … Yup it was a beast even with the MK26 GMLS. Those first 5 CGs were built to lock down airspace. IF IT FLIES IT DIES!
Don't forget some missiles have secondary engagement mode like the SM-2MR and the Soviet counterparts, so it's entirely possible to pit the Ticonderoga against the Slava (despite the huge difference in displacement and Ticon lack of dedicated anti-ship missile) just to see the outcome. It'll be interesting. I think you need to manually control the ship to select the weapon to engage surface targets with it.
I love everything about this. CAP as usual narrates amazingly. I have been thinking for a few years now that his sports-like calls in combination with great naval war graphics would be a slam dunk for good revenue. With that said I would like next Los Angeles vs Alpha. The big question during cold war was who would win the underwater sea battle.
Good video. Thanks! Main advantage for the US is the AEGIS weapon system and better SAM in the SM-2. The Harpoons seemed to had an advantage with the pop-up maneuver close-in if the Kynda didn't get it with a SAM or CIWS. Same scenario against Kirov or Slava would go differently IMO because of SA-N-6. I always pronounced it like WIN. Our recognition prompt for S-3s was "Kynda like Lynda, two of everything. Two missile packs, two stacks, two guns on the back"
It’s not a fair fight. Not only is the Tico a newer ship by almost 20 years, but it also had AEGIS and AWACS as an advantage here. All the Kyndas had in their favor was the punch of the P35s, and once that was neutralized by the SM-2s (18 years newer than the SA-N-1 btw) it was guaranteed REDFOR would lose. I suggest using the Kara-class or one of the Krestas against the tico, as while it has a less capable armament, it has a much more capable defense against the type of array the Ticonderogas have. If you want to get a battle the kyndas were actually designed to defeat? Throw an OKC/ Adams/ garcia trio against one Kynda and watch BLUEFOR get their shit kicked in from 300 miles away.
You can add the fact that the SS-N-3 Shaddock of the Kynda were developed in the 1950's at a time when cwis was only in development and intercept missiles were RIM-2 Terrier With only 18 nm range and not great seekers or maneuverability
The 700 mile battle was the coolest yet. Would love to see more iterations of that type! Maybe full AI vs. AI with no human interaction and also human vs. human.
Not really possible with the game, as he's said in the past. It's single-player only, and you have to play as one side or the other. The game is designed primarily as a proper sim to run scenarios in, and stuff like this is outside it's design intent.
I haven’t watch the video yet but I will make a prediction that Kynda will lose against any US cruiser that have a decent AA SAM, SS-N-3 is a ridiculously old and easily to intercept missile with it predictable flight path.
Kynda class was obsolete by the eighties. A better match up would be Taicondaroga class versus Slava class. I think Virginia versus Kynda class would be an interesting match up.
About what I expected. Soviet CIWS worked in pairs so Kynda only had two and the SAM's were pretty bad too. The Tico's were very good platforms even in the eighties. Incidentally, the Kynda's carried sixteen SSM's each with four reloads under the bridge and four in the rear superstructure. I can't imagine how hard it must have been trying to reload in any kind of sea state though.
@@kralexprofill4571 To be fair, the early 80s Ticos are much worse than the later 85+ Ticos with the inclusion of the MK41 VLS as opposed to the Mk-26 Launcher.
@@MrCoolguy425 but even with the MK26 launcher tico can guide near unlimited SM2s since it only needs SARH in the last few secs. the move to VLS is mostly for more BGM-109s, not because MK26 is not fast enough. MK26s can reload both missile within 9 secs and tico had 2 of them, so avgs around 1 missile every 2 secs.
Not surprising at all that the Tico absolutely smoked the Kyndas. AEGIS is ridiculous and this game can only replicate it based off of open source information.
That was totally a fair fight. Not to mention the SA-N-1 has a minimum altitude 10x higher that the harpoons flight altitude... Totally fair, and the AK-630 relative performance has always been way worse than the 20mm phalanx ciws of NATO.
Cap, you're trying, and that's what counts. My big complaints are always EW and tactics. But I know of them because I was in the military, and they were my specialty. In fairness, I can't expect someone who was never in, to know what a veteran knows. That said, keep up the good work, keep tyring, I'll keep watching. 😊
I know you did the four Virginia Class cruisers, however it appeared that the armament was prior to the New Threat Upgrade which severely handicapped them. How about the four Kidd Class DDG's if their armament reflects the New Threat Upgrade which they received in the 1988 - 1990 time frame. If not the Kidd Class then try the Kee Lung Class DDG's of the Republic of China Navy as they are the Kidd Class ships sold to the Republic of China with the New Threat Upgrade. I would expect the outcome to be similar to the Tico Class as other than the AEGIS system the only other main difference is four missile guidance radars (Tico Class) to three missile guidance radars (Kidd Class).
They made many mistakes in modeling the Virginia Class for certain, not to mention that although they had destroyer like hulls they were heavily reinforced mainly because of the reactor, but still they would have been nearly impossible to sink from missiles, you’d have to break Virginias back first.
Tico and AEGIS was designed for exactly this. Tico and her systems are newer than the Kyndas. The Russians then had to come up with ships and systems to defeat Tico and AEGIS. Around and around we go....
How about a battle with one of each type from the Soviets VS one of each type from the USN? Tier them up in destroyers vs destroyers, cruisers vs cruisers etc etc.
funny to see the difference when it comes to radar and fire control. aegis is on another planet. with the SM-3 it could intercept ballistic missiles 1200km away. keep these up its really fun to watch
Objectively The Ticonderoga from 1978 would defeat a Kirov class battle cruiser, The Bunker Hill would probably defeat whichever Soviet Navy flotilla is in it’s AO
These Ticos are the inital 5 built with Mk-26 launchers. Many of the newer bells and whistles were included in the later MK-41 VLS vessels, but not in the initial 5. (the primary reason why the original 5 were decommissioned much earlier than the rest) So their power is significantly limited by that fact.
It's kind of comical you thought the Kynda, a ship that was built during the start of the missile age, would be able to compete with a Ticonderoga, a late-cold war vessel with a system like AEGIS. While technically "Destroyers" the Sovremenny or the Udaloy II has a better balance of defense and offense, and they are 2,000-3,000 tons heavier than a Kynda "cruiser".
If you use the OREL carrier make sure to add a KIROV battle cruiser on the port or starboard side of the carrier and not at the front of the carrier group.
Nice video. Thank you for your efforts. As others have already pointed out, the choice of opponents was somewhat unbalanced. And, of course, the Americans and the Soviets had entirely different naval doctrines (NATO needed to control the seas; the Soviets did not need to control the seas as much as they needed to make sure NATO lost control of the seas), so their vessels had different missions and ship designs were not always comparable. I'm not sure how many smaller platforms are included in Sea Power, but if you want two squadrons of ships facing off against each other, you may want to look at various missile boat classes. And, for the purpose of comparing ships, the countries do not need to be traditional adversaries...you might have a Norway vs. Sweden match, for example. Thanks again for the videos. They're very entertaining.
@@SgtTechCom Right, because once the antiship missiles are gone the Tico can just stand off and smoke the Kyndas with it's huge supply of SM-2s. Even if it comes to guns, the Tico's 5" guns outrange the Kyndas 76mm guns by a wide margin.
@@josephwhiskeybeale Ticonderoga (the lead ship) was laid down in January of 1980, launched in April 81, and Commissioned in January of 83. I have no idea where you are getting 1978 from, unless you are talking about the design of the vessel? in which case the design of the Kynda was specified in the mid-late 50s.
They setup was clearly stacked against the soviets . Soviet 1960s Command Guidance AA missiles vs US 1980s SARH missiles with command uplink. A better match up would be CG16 vs Kynda class... or a Sovremenny vs CG47.
Agreed on the Sovremmeny, its the closest soviet equivalent even though its a destroyer. Or he could do 2/2 sovremmeny/slava against 4 ticos to match tonnage. @mandoreforger6999 Ticonderoga fighting a kynda isn't unrealistic, it absolutely could have happened, but its definitely an unfair *matchup*. The Yamato would shit all over the USS Nevada if they ever met in combat, despite being the same class active at the same time fighting in the same war in the same theater, I don't think anyone would call that battle fair.
Hi cap, I just acknowledged that JF-17 in DCS is now able to shoot a ballistic missile called CM400AKG, do you have plan on making a tutorial video for that?
Maybe have a look at some of the older us ships like the cg conversions of ww2 cruisers. I think they should have talos, terrier or tartar missile systems. I dont think long beach is in the game yet - i think youll find it out awsomes the virginias a bit!
Considering the FACTOTUM that HARPOON range is so low. That Launch on BEARING! Firing sequence would require the Kynda Kresta class rocket cruisers, to have more than enough flexibility in their Firing SALVOES of SS-N-3 Shaddock cruise missiles. Long Beach with HARPOON is a better choice for Head to Head surface action. Either way with 120 Terrier Medium Range SAM or SM2MR them Rocket Cruisers are toast. SS-N-3 SHADDOCK IS AOBSOLETE MISSOLE SYSTEM BY 1975. GM/FC TRAINED COLD WAR VETERAN BB61 87-90
Bring it on, baby. Let's find out if all those assumptions the designers made are any good. Looks fantastic, but please make the sinking times more realistic. Allow me to speak for wargamers in the west. We want realism, not pro west, or pro soviet. Looks really good so far, guys.
Friendly advice , you have a thing in every video since always to follow each missile everytime until the explosion , giving us zero cinematic of the ship models firing etc especialy in terminal faze , its boring just following the missile in the air all time.. keep up the good work !
@@nomorerainbows I've seen one. I didn't know there were other versions. Do you know if these channels had two or more carriers? If you don't know, I'll check. Thank you!
I think at this point the Ticonderoga is the only Aegis ship in the game. Therefore it might be the most capable at air defense. Maybe only Kirov could beat it at that with its VLS but I'm not sure.
Kynda was infamous among Soviet seamen for having ludicrously inadequate anti-air capabilities. М-1 Волна ("Wave") a.k.a. SA-N-1 Goa could only fire a salvo of 2 missiles each 50 seconds, both only capable to track a single target. And yeaaahhh, the hit probability was described as "0,25-0,99" (I dunno what this even means, don't even ask me. Probably it could be rounded up as "it's a bit more likely to hit than miss", lol) Also only four of П-35 a.k.a. SS-N-3 could be guided simultaneously in high-precision manual mode due to Kynda's radar limitations; others could be fired either in the automatic-guidance mode (which dramatically reduced accuracy and effective range) or fired in a second salvo, after the first 4 missiles hit (or missed) their target(s). And it was just-above-supersonic with a pretty high flight profile missile, making it quite simple to intercept. Aaaand actually Kynda had 16 SS-N-3's: 8 in launch tubes and 8 more in storage. BUT the launch tubes could not be reloaded by said 8 missiles from the storage in the open sea by the crew on its own. So what's the point of putting more explosive things on board? Obviously, because COMMUNISM LOGIC, you Trotskist traitor! AND it is rumored that each 4th of SS-N-3 missiles had a nuclear warhead, so when you fired 8 of them, you've probably started a nuclear war in this video :D
The Harpoon in game is the Harpoon Block 1 which did not have a direct maneuver mode. the Block 1B was only capable of direct maneuver. It was only until the Block 1C when a selective terminal maneuver was included.
@@MrCoolguy425wasn’t the default mode seaskimming all the way until a pop up terminal maneuver was available? I mainly used the SWG-1A for planning until the LCD display planning console came out (can’t remember its designation) and a selectable pop up maneuver became selectable. It’s been a while.
@@lohrtom I’m talking specifically about terminal maneuvers, but the Block 1 is a very early version of the missile being deployed only a few years after release in 1980. With the block 1A and block 1B both being used to create the Block 1C which was released in 1984.
Cap - thanks for the content, but as many have pointed out, this one isn't super fair. I'm a little late to the game, so Not sure if you're committed to "it has to be 1-v-1 or 4-v-4". 1 Tico vs. 4 Kyndas (from different vectors) would probably be more fair. Basically 1 AEGIS Tico, or even Arleigh Burke is going to be more than a match for any 1 Soviet ship except maybe a Kirov. and probably 1 Tico is better than even 2-3 of those ships because as long as it's got some miles between and an AWACS, it's going to see and shoot down ~40 Soviet anti-ship missiles with its 96 SM-2. Others that might yield a better result: 1. Tico vs. Kirov (1-v-1) 2. Leahy or Belknap vs. Kynda 3. Charles Adams vs. Kashin 2 4. Spruance vs. Sovremenny class Good luck and happy simming.
Assuming the Harpoons were all intercepted as well, would the 1980s SM-2MR on the Ticos still be usable in their secondary anti-ship role (or was that added later?)
For every communist complaining this is probably the most accurate form of Soviet cruiser in this era as there were only 2 Kirovs and both stayed in dry docks most of the time, and there was only one Slava at the time. Whereas Ticonderogas were everywhere, but let’s be honest a Belknap would have done just as well.
I've seen tiktok's how iron dome system is intercepting rockets and, during the interception i've seen 2 types of missiles interceptor, Of course Tamir from iron dome with a small warhead and slower, and also a faster missile interceptor with a Huge warhead explosion.... And since israel has the only missiles with proximity fuse detonation Tamir and pac2........ Can u make a video about my conclusion?
This was a fun video! Too bad people still find a way to complain about stuff instead of just enjoying the content. These arm chair generals should play the game themselves come Tuesday so they can make it as “fair” as possible to their liking.
The soviet choices are too thin to complain when the fight doesn't match up perfectly. He sometimes makes up carriers just to give the Soviets a chance lol
The Kynda's Radar was very much behind her fall here. No doubt sea clutter affected the fire control accuracy and the single Harpoon lost must have strayed into a proximity fuse radius. Where GOA SAMs even capable of shooting down missiles....maybe Styx but Harpoon I doubt it. Kyinda is a similar age to the Royal Navy County Class Destroyer deploying 1st Generation Naval SAMs like Seacat and Sea Slug. The USN 3 T missiles were probably the best at the time discounting those in development but even then they had flaws 😊 I personally would have pitted the Tico up against a modernised Sverdlov like Mikhail Kutusov. Kutusov didnt have missiles so would win if it could withstand the Ticos assault as it would hunt it down and Gun Cruiser it. 1986 Kutusov had 4x2 100mm Secondaries with HEVT and lonts of AK-230s and 37mm V-11s
Likely in what way? There is literally no way a kynda and a tico would face off this close to each other this close to US coasts and without any escort. This is in no way fair or historical (which is the point of this entire series, dude.) you’re only defending this type of one-sided engagement because it helps you bandage your ego after seeing a fair fight end with your beloved western ships getting vaporized (Virginia v Slava) Also, end of service date is kind of a stupid way to judge something. There are M3 Stuart’s still in service with Chile right now. Does that mean a fight with a T72B3 is in any way historically accurate or fair? NO.
@@SgtTechCom which infinitely favors the American vessel. Soviet naval doctrine was built around outranging them with bigger and faster missiles. If it’s within SM range, the Soviet ship has already lost. And guess what the 45 km mark just happened to be?
@ that’s what I’m trying to say. There is no possibility where this is even close to a fair fight. Which is why even suggesting that it is (like reaper and this kid mandore are) is dumb.
Well Ticos and burkes are both very powerful for it's size since its one of the first 360 degree 4 fixed phase array radar ships. no russian ship would be a good match for it even today, 30+ years later since they lost the capability to make large ships after the fall of iron curtain.
Are the other nations not added yet or are you not allowed to showcase them the pre-release? I'm surprised you've not at least checked out the British stuff if you can.
Cap. You are not fighting the red side correctly. The red side is submarine centric, while the blue side is CVN group centric. The red side saturates the blue with missiles from a distance SSG and SSGN and pushes in with SS and SSN. The surface side is there as distraction or to support landings.
You said that the Slava was too big for the Tico while it is only 17% heavier at full load. The Tico is 78% heavier than the Kynda! So if you wanted to make this fair the Tico would have to fight the Slava, it is the soviet equivalent and competitor. About the age, Kynda entered service in 1962, Slava entered service in 1982, Tico entered service 1983, so even in this regard the Tico should be put against the Slava. Tico vs Kynda is equivalent to Slava vs a Farragut-class destroyer (similar age and size to the Kynda).
Slava vs Tico is a very fair fight. That would probably be a 50/50 fight in these close range duels. In long range fights, it would be whomever saw the other one first that would have a huge edge.
In fairness to Cap, he doesn't know the ships so he probably did think it was a fair fight based on missile counts and such. Once he gets more familiar with the ships ages/timelines I suspect fights will become better balanced.
i mean the ussr never built anything like aegis so i dont really think you could have a fair 1v1.
Aegis was like a Generational leap in AAW capability. I'm not sure you COULD saturate it - only by having so many targets that the firecontrol / missle launchers couldn't keep up.
Yeah, but the Russians fight as badly as that whether they have a ship of the same generation or not.
Aegis? Do you know what a computer looked like 40 years ago? What did they use, an IBM PC?
@@phlippbergamot5723 well we saw their AESA ships sunk by drones in port already so yeah.
I hate how much everyone is complaining! This beautiful man has put a lot of effort in, with limited resources, to give us entertainment and all everyone can do is moan. If you can do better, please feel free. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it. Thanks for all the work cap!
Are you going to cry?
Because he's a liar. he said the fight would be fair and it wasnt. Can you put two ships from different generations up against each other and expected them to perform on equal levels. That's like expecting an old man to be able to beat a young man. I don't care how much work you put into it. Stop glazing its a bad look.
@@pregnant9574 You're the one crying, bitch.
Next up: Leopard 2 against an 80 year old grandma in a wheelchair
u mean 95yo babushka, a fat, weak, wearing glass babushka
Or maybe let's let the Soviets have a chance by giving them a totally made up carrier that never made it past the napkin drawing...oh wait...he did that for them last week
@@joed1015 or don't do it
although god and truth is Oryel is basically Kuznetsov if it wasn't made half-assed. I really don't understand why the hell they added him to this game instead of Kuznetsov or even the damn Ulyanovsk. The funniest thing in all of this is the ability of the Soviet Politburo to throw billion-dollar projects to the trash bin. advanced stage because they got bored with the concept. If, instead of changing tactical assumptions every other Sunday, they had simply stuck to Project 1160 or even the modernized Project 1143 (because the example of "Baku"/"Vikramaditya" shows that they could easily be converted into full-fledged aircraft carriers and without such contortions and perinatal shocks as with Kuznetsov ) then they could probably have had a fleet of a dozen or so aircraft carriers by the mid-1990s.
Folks keep pitting Kirovs against Iowas - Kirov vs. Ticonderoga is the real fight.
True, but realistically the Kirovs would be hopelessly outnumbered. I don’t think they ever made more than a total of four, and I’m not sure they’re all seaworthy currently
Very fair fight I totally didn’t laugh my ass of when I saw you pick the kynda I mean that thing is like 20 years older than the tico
with 20years more experience it should be an easy win then
Putting the SS-N-3 up against an 80s Tico is like throwing rocks at an Abrams.
It's not even supersonic!
she only see by term cruiser vs cruiser not by time of units released
What is he supposed to do, just pick Slava's for every fight? Kydna's were in service until the early 2000's there just aren't many good choices
@@orkhepajso a ww2 battle ship should be able to be a tico your logic is retarded at best.
Why don't you fight 4 US Belknap Class CG's against four Soviet Kynda Class CGs? They are much more evenly based platforms. both have 8 surface-to-surface, both have 1 twin mount air-to air launcher, Belknap's have a single 5" gun placement vs. Kynda's two twin 76mm guns (means nothing). Belknap's uses standard search radars (before AEGIS system), same as Kynda's. Biggest difference is that Belknap's have SM2ER's instead of MR's. I was stationed on a Belknap Class CG, so I would find this very interesting.
Kynda Kresta class Rocket Cruisers were blatantly obsolete by the late 70's. Only the most Ignorant americans forget this. Their SS-N-3 SHADDOCK cruise missiles were obsolete due to AN/SLQ32 EW and SM2MR/SM2ER variants. Long Beach CGN-9 with Armored Box Launchers and 2 RAM and MK10 TERRIER launchers could Sink Kynda and Kresta Rocket Cruisers by itself. The Top Sail, Big Net radars would require ESM support to be able to provide a firing solution to engage I coming TASM. Besides Long Beach could get with HARPOON range of those decrepit ships by the late 70's. Too many IGNORANT americans who aren't SURFACE WARRIORS! SHOOTING THEIR MOUTH OFF! GM AND FC TRAINED COLD WAR VETERAN BB61 87-90
Interestingly why did they not make MK26 support SM2-ER on Virginia, Kidd and Ticos? Limiting SM2-ERs to the older ships with MK10 launcher is weird.
Missile launches from ships never gets old.
Thanks for the video Cap! Loving the switch from DCS to SP. Looking forward to playing this game and all the future content this will provide!
Love the Sea Power content. Thanks, guys.
In the last video you said the Virginia was an Aegis ship but they were NOT. It was an intended upgrade in the 90's except the cold war came to an end. Pics I've seen made them even more beautiful. The SPY-1 radar also gives it a major edge.
Ahhh yes….the vaunted New Threat Upgrade everyone was excited about that never came to be.
@@lohrtom Deemed too expensive on a ship that was too old and too expensive to run.
@@madrabbit9007you are correct. Most of those ships were pushing 30 years old by the . Those of us not assimilated by the Aegis borg cube were excited about it, it sounded good at the time.
Virginia class CGN was to be the Basis for CSGN STRIKE CRUISER WITH UPGRADED AEGIS. YET VIRGINIA CLASS CGN COST 150 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR TO OPERATE! THATS WHY THE CSGN WAS CANCELLED ANDNYOU UAVE THE AEGIS GARBAGE OF TODAY
I had the great pleasure to do a cross-pol with a Tico class in the late 1980's. Their ops room compared to our tech was like visiting the Starship Enterprise! They ran a sim (something we couldn't do) and we were so incredibly impressed with the Aegis system. Very capable to say the least.
Basically got an F15 facing off against a Mig 17 in this scenario
Grim Reaper was like: "Why did the WW1 cruisers / aircraft get absolutely destroyed by the WW2 cruisers / aircraft? It's a fair fight!"
That's the kind of time difference the ships and their system have between them. With the aircraft example it just gets even more obvious. 1950s weapons against 1980s weapons is as unfair as it gets in this game
I really enjoyed watching it though. Those poor ships had no chance
@@kralexprofill4571They should do 4 Charles F. Adams vs 4 Udaloys
western bias😏
Simba is somewhere out there shooting down an Awacs
Love this battle! I spent some years on the early Aegis CGs. I think the harpoons would have came in from different directions. As far as the early baseline Aegis … Yup it was a beast even with the MK26 GMLS. Those first 5 CGs were built to lock down airspace. IF IT FLIES IT DIES!
Don't forget some missiles have secondary engagement mode like the SM-2MR and the Soviet counterparts, so it's entirely possible to pit the Ticonderoga against the Slava (despite the huge difference in displacement and Ticon lack of dedicated anti-ship missile) just to see the outcome. It'll be interesting.
I think you need to manually control the ship to select the weapon to engage surface targets with it.
I love everything about this. CAP as usual narrates amazingly. I have been thinking for a few years now that his sports-like calls in combination with great naval war graphics would be a slam dunk for good revenue. With that said I would like next Los Angeles vs Alpha. The big question during cold war was who would win the underwater sea battle.
Good video. Thanks!
Main advantage for the US is the AEGIS weapon system and better SAM in the SM-2. The Harpoons seemed to had an advantage with the pop-up maneuver close-in if the Kynda didn't get it with a SAM or CIWS. Same scenario against Kirov or Slava would go differently IMO because of SA-N-6.
I always pronounced it like WIN. Our recognition prompt for S-3s was "Kynda like Lynda, two of everything. Two missile packs, two stacks, two guns on the back"
Nice one Cap, love the graphics in this game. Many thanks for the entertainment.
Once the Harpoons go into the evasion phase, they're not going to get hit!
It’s not a fair fight. Not only is the Tico a newer ship by almost 20 years, but it also had AEGIS and AWACS as an advantage here. All the Kyndas had in their favor was the punch of the P35s, and once that was neutralized by the SM-2s (18 years newer than the SA-N-1 btw) it was guaranteed REDFOR would lose. I suggest using the Kara-class or one of the Krestas against the tico, as while it has a less capable armament, it has a much more capable defense against the type of array the Ticonderogas have. If you want to get a battle the kyndas were actually designed to defeat? Throw an OKC/ Adams/ garcia trio against one Kynda and watch BLUEFOR get their shit kicked in from 300 miles away.
If the west win, the channel gets views and likes lol
Both sides had awacs?
You can add the fact that the SS-N-3 Shaddock of the Kynda were developed in the 1950's at a time when cwis was only in development and intercept missiles were RIM-2 Terrier
With only 18 nm range and not great seekers or maneuverability
Who cares about fair war isn't fair
In real life war is never fair bro. Like it or not, America will always have the upper hand in firepower/military superiority
The 700 mile battle was the coolest yet. Would love to see more iterations of that type! Maybe full AI vs. AI with no human interaction and also human vs. human.
Not really possible with the game, as he's said in the past. It's single-player only, and you have to play as one side or the other. The game is designed primarily as a proper sim to run scenarios in, and stuff like this is outside it's design intent.
I haven’t watch the video yet but I will make a prediction that Kynda will lose against any US cruiser that have a decent AA SAM, SS-N-3 is a ridiculously old and easily to intercept missile with it predictable flight path.
Enjoying this Capt!
Kynda class was obsolete by the eighties. A better match up would be Taicondaroga class versus Slava class. I think Virginia versus Kynda class would be an interesting match up.
About what I expected. Soviet CIWS worked in pairs so Kynda only had two and the SAM's were pretty bad too. The Tico's were very good platforms even in the eighties.
Incidentally, the Kynda's carried sixteen SSM's each with four reloads under the bridge and four in the rear superstructure. I can't imagine how hard it must have been trying to reload in any kind of sea state though.
The Tico's were very good platforms in the 80s because they just came into being during the middle of the 80s
@@kralexprofill4571 To be fair, the early 80s Ticos are much worse than the later 85+ Ticos with the inclusion of the MK41 VLS as opposed to the Mk-26 Launcher.
@@MrCoolguy425 but even with the MK26 launcher tico can guide near unlimited SM2s since it only needs SARH in the last few secs. the move to VLS is mostly for more BGM-109s, not because MK26 is not fast enough. MK26s can reload both missile within 9 secs and tico had 2 of them, so avgs around 1 missile every 2 secs.
Oh boy, RUclips compression did not like the harpoons skim the sea.
Not surprising at all that the Tico absolutely smoked the Kyndas. AEGIS is ridiculous and this game can only replicate it based off of open source information.
I am waiting with great anticipation for this game
That was totally a fair fight. Not to mention the SA-N-1 has a minimum altitude 10x higher that the harpoons flight altitude... Totally fair, and the AK-630 relative performance has always been way worse than the 20mm phalanx ciws of NATO.
Aegis vs slingshot.
I would say something like the belknap is a better choice for the kynda
The SA-N-1 would never be able to shoot down low flying Harpoon missiles. Anything that flies below 100 feet or so was safe against this system.
Cap, you're trying, and that's what counts. My big complaints are always EW and tactics. But I know of them because I was in the military, and they were my specialty. In fairness, I can't expect someone who was never in, to know what a veteran knows. That said, keep up the good work, keep tyring, I'll keep watching. 😊
I know you did the four Virginia Class cruisers, however it appeared that the armament was prior to the New Threat Upgrade which severely handicapped them. How about the four Kidd Class DDG's if their armament reflects the New Threat Upgrade which they received in the 1988 - 1990 time frame. If not the Kidd Class then try the Kee Lung Class DDG's of the Republic of China Navy as they are the Kidd Class ships sold to the Republic of China with the New Threat Upgrade. I would expect the outcome to be similar to the Tico Class as other than the AEGIS system the only other main difference is four missile guidance radars (Tico Class) to three missile guidance radars (Kidd Class).
They made many mistakes in modeling the Virginia Class for certain, not to mention that although they had destroyer like hulls they were heavily reinforced mainly because of the reactor, but still they would have been nearly impossible to sink from missiles, you’d have to break Virginias back first.
I think the timeline for the game ends at 1984 so anything newer than that won't be in the game.
Tico and AEGIS was designed for exactly this. Tico and her systems are newer than the Kyndas. The Russians then had to come up with ships and systems to defeat Tico and AEGIS. Around and around we go....
Maybe have the Tico's fight the Kresta's then the Kara since those evolved from the Kynda class. See which evolution if any can defeat the Tico.
How about a battle with one of each type from the Soviets VS one of each type from the USN? Tier them up in destroyers vs destroyers, cruisers vs cruisers etc etc.
The SM2 was fairly new back then, the Harpoon leaping up screws those ships lol
The kresta 1 may be able to survive a bit longer but it i think only had 4 missiles. Kresta 2 marked switch to large asw ship.
funny to see the difference when it comes to radar and fire control. aegis is on another planet. with the SM-3 it could intercept ballistic missiles 1200km away. keep these up its really fun to watch
Very cool
I've served on 2 Tico's and this game doesn't even show 1/4 the power of these ships.
I agree.
Objectively The Ticonderoga from 1978 would defeat a Kirov class battle cruiser, The Bunker Hill would probably defeat whichever Soviet Navy flotilla is in it’s AO
These Ticos are the inital 5 built with Mk-26 launchers. Many of the newer bells and whistles were included in the later MK-41 VLS vessels, but not in the initial 5. (the primary reason why the original 5 were decommissioned much earlier than the rest) So their power is significantly limited by that fact.
@@MrCoolguy425 The Mk26 ships are still a quantum leap in tech over the previous generation of ships.
It's kind of comical you thought the Kynda, a ship that was built during the start of the missile age, would be able to compete with a Ticonderoga, a late-cold war vessel with a system like AEGIS. While technically "Destroyers" the Sovremenny or the Udaloy II has a better balance of defense and offense, and they are 2,000-3,000 tons heavier than a Kynda "cruiser".
If you use the OREL carrier make sure to add a KIROV battle cruiser on the port or starboard side of the carrier and not at the front of the carrier group.
Add more of the smaller ships until the displacement is equal.
Nice video. Thank you for your efforts. As others have already pointed out, the choice of opponents was somewhat unbalanced. And, of course, the Americans and the Soviets had entirely different naval doctrines (NATO needed to control the seas; the Soviets did not need to control the seas as much as they needed to make sure NATO lost control of the seas), so their vessels had different missions and ship designs were not always comparable.
I'm not sure how many smaller platforms are included in Sea Power, but if you want two squadrons of ships facing off against each other, you may want to look at various missile boat classes. And, for the purpose of comparing ships, the countries do not need to be traditional adversaries...you might have a Norway vs. Sweden match, for example.
Thanks again for the videos. They're very entertaining.
It would be interesting to see how many Kyndas one Tico can beat at once...
I think 2v1 would be a fair-ish fight, maybe even 3v1?
A tico could easily take on 4 Kyndas and win over 90% of the time.
@@SgtTechCom Right, because once the antiship missiles are gone the Tico can just stand off and smoke the Kyndas with it's huge supply of SM-2s. Even if it comes to guns, the Tico's 5" guns outrange the Kyndas 76mm guns by a wide margin.
@@SgtTechCom Do I hear 5 Kyndas vs 1 TICO ? 6 ? And don't forget that the Arleigh Burke DDGs are basically the same AEGIS system.
Basstilt sucks as a fire control radar
lol Your last battle was a 70's US cruiser versus an 80's Soviet cruiser. This time is was an 80's US cruiser versus a 60's Soviet cruiser.
Tico is from 1978….
@@josephwhiskeybeale Ticonderoga (the lead ship) was laid down in January of 1980, launched in April 81, and Commissioned in January of 83. I have no idea where you are getting 1978 from, unless you are talking about the design of the vessel? in which case the design of the Kynda was specified in the mid-late 50s.
I like how realistic this is :) US-USSR navy was never really a contest.. Just their subs.
In Cold Waters Dot Mod I play the later Tico (VLS) vs. Kirov
The Tico sinks the Kirov each and every time.
Sufficient and pleasing quantity and quality of smacky smacky boom boom.
has anyone noticed the signal flags on the US ships yet?
They setup was clearly stacked against the soviets . Soviet 1960s Command Guidance AA missiles vs US 1980s SARH missiles with command uplink. A better match up would be CG16 vs Kynda class... or a Sovremenny vs CG47.
Stop whining, the Kyndas were in service well into the 1980s. Just because the US updates its tech doesn’t make it unrealistic or unfair.
Agreed on the Sovremmeny, its the closest soviet equivalent even though its a destroyer. Or he could do 2/2 sovremmeny/slava against 4 ticos to match tonnage.
@mandoreforger6999 Ticonderoga fighting a kynda isn't unrealistic, it absolutely could have happened, but its definitely an unfair *matchup*. The Yamato would shit all over the USS Nevada if they ever met in combat, despite being the same class active at the same time fighting in the same war in the same theater, I don't think anyone would call that battle fair.
@@mandoreforger6999the video literally started by saying that it would be a fair fight though.
Tico vs Slava next?
Only 1 day and 15 hours left to wait 😁
Hi cap, I just acknowledged that JF-17 in DCS is now able to shoot a ballistic missile called CM400AKG, do you have plan on making a tutorial video for that?
Will investigate.
Don't mess with Long Island!
Initial reaction: 8 cruisers and the video is only 18 minute?
Either this is going to be real good, or a really bad server crash 🤣
Maybe have a look at some of the older us ships like the cg conversions of ww2 cruisers. I think they should have talos, terrier or tartar missile systems. I dont think long beach is in the game yet - i think youll find it out awsomes the virginias a bit!
I think a Kynda would be equal to a Belknap
Belknap refit would have performed just as good as an early Tico
@@josemiguel8149 actually belknap refit has 1 less gun and 1 less launcher than the Tico, also it has no Aegis radars
@ actually the Belknap wouldn’t need the extra gun nor twin arm, and Belknaps radars were more than capable in this situation IRL
Considering the FACTOTUM that HARPOON range is so low. That Launch on BEARING! Firing sequence would require the Kynda Kresta class rocket cruisers, to have more than enough flexibility in their Firing SALVOES of SS-N-3 Shaddock cruise missiles. Long Beach with HARPOON is a better choice for Head to Head surface action. Either way with 120 Terrier Medium Range SAM or SM2MR them Rocket Cruisers are toast. SS-N-3 SHADDOCK IS AOBSOLETE MISSOLE SYSTEM BY 1975. GM/FC TRAINED COLD WAR VETERAN BB61 87-90
@5:40 If Kynda and Tico are about equal, the US would weep.
So fair cap...... so fair, let us compare 2 naval vessel's that are nearly 25 years apart in tech during the fast pace cold war.
kind of a silly match up.
20 years older, no aa missiles and also less weight.
the proper match is vs. slava
Miss my cruiser. Cg73 rest in peace
Great ships. I was a Plank owner on a Spruance class
Bring it on, baby. Let's find out if all those assumptions the designers made are any good. Looks fantastic, but please make the sinking times more realistic. Allow me to speak for wargamers in the west. We want realism, not pro west, or pro soviet. Looks really good so far, guys.
What if we put Galveston-class cruisers against Sverdlov-class cruisers?
Friendly advice , you have a thing in every video since always to follow each missile everytime until the explosion , giving us zero cinematic of the ship models firing etc especialy in terminal faze , its boring just following the missile in the air all time.. keep up the good work !
Hey Grim Reapers! Are y'all planning to do a recreation/variant of Red Storm Raising's "Dance of the Vampires" scenario?
It's already been done by a few other channels.
@@nomorerainbows I've seen one. I didn't know there were other versions. Do you know if these channels had two or more carriers? If you don't know, I'll check. Thank you!
Game music is way to loud when up close, r.i.p headphones users having to hear the great century burning blaze at 1000 db
Kynda is a fair fight vs an OHP class. At most a Spruance.
I think at this point the Ticonderoga is the only Aegis ship in the game. Therefore it might be the most capable at air defense. Maybe only Kirov could beat it at that with its VLS but I'm not sure.
Kynda was infamous among Soviet seamen for having ludicrously inadequate anti-air capabilities. М-1 Волна ("Wave") a.k.a. SA-N-1 Goa could only fire a salvo of 2 missiles each 50 seconds, both only capable to track a single target. And yeaaahhh, the hit probability was described as "0,25-0,99" (I dunno what this even means, don't even ask me. Probably it could be rounded up as "it's a bit more likely to hit than miss", lol)
Also only four of П-35 a.k.a. SS-N-3 could be guided simultaneously in high-precision manual mode due to Kynda's radar limitations; others could be fired either in the automatic-guidance mode (which dramatically reduced accuracy and effective range) or fired in a second salvo, after the first 4 missiles hit (or missed) their target(s). And it was just-above-supersonic with a pretty high flight profile missile, making it quite simple to intercept. Aaaand actually Kynda had 16 SS-N-3's: 8 in launch tubes and 8 more in storage. BUT the launch tubes could not be reloaded by said 8 missiles from the storage in the open sea by the crew on its own. So what's the point of putting more explosive things on board? Obviously, because COMMUNISM LOGIC, you Trotskist traitor!
AND it is rumored that each 4th of SS-N-3 missiles had a nuclear warhead, so when you fired 8 of them, you've probably started a nuclear war in this video :D
Surprised that SM misdiles have 100% kill rate. Never happened in reality.
The missiles the Kynda was firing were non manuevering, as big as a bus, and barely supersonic. Literally like shooting down target drones.
Why do all of the harpoons in this game do a terminal pop up maneuver? It is not doctrine to do that
The Harpoon in game is the Harpoon Block 1 which did not have a direct maneuver mode. the Block 1B was only capable of direct maneuver. It was only until the Block 1C when a selective terminal maneuver was included.
@@MrCoolguy425wasn’t the default mode seaskimming all the way until a pop up terminal maneuver was available? I mainly used the SWG-1A for planning until the LCD display planning console came out (can’t remember its designation) and a selectable pop up maneuver became selectable. It’s been a while.
@@lohrtom I’m talking specifically about terminal maneuvers, but the Block 1 is a very early version of the missile being deployed only a few years after release in 1980. With the block 1A and block 1B both being used to create the Block 1C which was released in 1984.
Its gotta be a difference in radar qualitiy i would think right?
Cap - thanks for the content, but as many have pointed out, this one isn't super fair.
I'm a little late to the game, so Not sure if you're committed to "it has to be 1-v-1 or 4-v-4". 1 Tico vs. 4 Kyndas (from different vectors) would probably be more fair.
Basically 1 AEGIS Tico, or even Arleigh Burke is going to be more than a match for any 1 Soviet ship except maybe a Kirov. and probably 1 Tico is better than even 2-3 of those ships because as long as it's got some miles between and an AWACS, it's going to see and shoot down ~40 Soviet anti-ship missiles with its 96 SM-2.
Others that might yield a better result:
1. Tico vs. Kirov (1-v-1)
2. Leahy or Belknap vs. Kynda
3. Charles Adams vs. Kashin 2
4. Spruance vs. Sovremenny class
Good luck and happy simming.
Assuming the Harpoons were all intercepted as well, would the 1980s SM-2MR on the Ticos still be usable in their secondary anti-ship role (or was that added later?)
One Tico could take on four Kyndas, what makes you think one Kynda could take on Tico alone?
For every communist complaining this is probably the most accurate form of Soviet cruiser in this era as there were only 2 Kirovs and both stayed in dry docks most of the time, and there was only one Slava at the time. Whereas Ticonderogas were everywhere, but let’s be honest a Belknap would have done just as well.
Throw everything at everything and push all the buttons and see what happens.
I've seen tiktok's how iron dome system is intercepting rockets and, during the interception i've seen 2 types of missiles interceptor, Of course Tamir from iron dome with a small warhead and slower, and also a faster missile interceptor with a Huge warhead explosion.... And since israel has the only missiles with proximity fuse detonation Tamir and pac2........ Can u make a video about my conclusion?
This was a fun video! Too bad people still find a way to complain about stuff instead of just enjoying the content. These arm chair generals should play the game themselves come Tuesday so they can make it as “fair” as possible to their liking.
The soviet choices are too thin to complain when the fight doesn't match up perfectly. He sometimes makes up carriers just to give the Soviets a chance lol
The Kynda's Radar was very much behind her fall here. No doubt sea clutter affected the fire control accuracy and the single Harpoon lost must have strayed into a proximity fuse radius. Where GOA SAMs even capable of shooting down missiles....maybe Styx but Harpoon I doubt it. Kyinda is a similar age to the Royal Navy County Class Destroyer deploying 1st Generation Naval SAMs like Seacat and Sea Slug. The USN 3 T missiles were probably the best at the time discounting those in development but even then they had flaws 😊 I personally would have pitted the Tico up against a modernised Sverdlov like Mikhail Kutusov. Kutusov didnt have missiles so would win if it could withstand the Ticos assault as it would hunt it down and Gun Cruiser it. 1986 Kutusov had 4x2 100mm Secondaries with HEVT and lonts of AK-230s and 37mm V-11s
If someone could combine DCS and Sea Power, that would be amazing.
To all of those whining, the last Kynda left service in 2002. These were likely to face off in the 1980s. Dry your tears, ladies.
Likely in what way? There is literally no way a kynda and a tico would face off this close to each other this close to US coasts and without any escort. This is in no way fair or historical (which is the point of this entire series, dude.) you’re only defending this type of one-sided engagement because it helps you bandage your ego after seeing a fair fight end with your beloved western ships getting vaporized (Virginia v Slava)
Also, end of service date is kind of a stupid way to judge something. There are M3 Stuart’s still in service with Chile right now. Does that mean a fight with a T72B3 is in any way historically accurate or fair? NO.
@@jamesburdian56 It's designed to be a close range slug fest.
@@SgtTechCom which infinitely favors the American vessel. Soviet naval doctrine was built around outranging them with bigger and faster missiles. If it’s within SM range, the Soviet ship has already lost. And guess what the 45 km mark just happened to be?
@@jamesburdian56 That's the way it be sometimes.
Frankly there is no fight that would favor Kynda's over Ticos.
@ that’s what I’m trying to say. There is no possibility where this is even close to a fair fight. Which is why even suggesting that it is (like reaper and this kid mandore are) is dumb.
Well Ticos and burkes are both very powerful for it's size since its one of the first 360 degree 4 fixed phase array radar ships.
no russian ship would be a good match for it even today, 30+ years later since they lost the capability to make large ships after the fall of iron curtain.
Does Sea Power offer VLS on any of it's ships ?
Are the other nations not added yet or are you not allowed to showcase them the pre-release? I'm surprised you've not at least checked out the British stuff if you can.
Amazing video as always. If I could respectfully request a weird battle
How many Ticonderogas would it take to fend themselves from one Kirov?
That would be an interesting video.
IRL? One.
Cap. You are not fighting the red side correctly. The red side is submarine centric, while the blue side is CVN group centric. The red side saturates the blue with missiles from a distance SSG and SSGN and pushes in with SS and SSN. The surface side is there as distraction or to support landings.
You said that the Slava was too big for the Tico while it is only 17% heavier at full load.
The Tico is 78% heavier than the Kynda!
So if you wanted to make this fair the Tico would have to fight the Slava, it is the soviet equivalent and competitor.
About the age, Kynda entered service in 1962, Slava entered service in 1982, Tico entered service 1983, so even in this regard the Tico should be put against the Slava.
Tico vs Kynda is equivalent to Slava vs a Farragut-class destroyer (similar age and size to the Kynda).
Slava vs Tico is a very fair fight. That would probably be a 50/50 fight in these close range duels.
In long range fights, it would be whomever saw the other one first that would have a huge edge.
Tico vs Slava is a 100% fair fight.
This wasn't a fair fight tico is newer by decades makes the video one sided and pointless
it is also close to double the size...
1 word: AEGIS
whats up with all the vampires?
This is kynda cool.
And in this video cap makes a fool of himself by wanting the west to win again