Warren McGrew and Open Theism
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Finally got to a lengthy section responding to Warren McGrew’s response to last week’s program discussing Judas and John 13, playing a major portion of his response and demonstrating its essential errors.
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Warren's position: God is a reactionary God, totally contingent upon the surrounding events. James White's position: God is a predestinating God, totally not contingent upon the surrounding events...
Yep and the latter is biblical, the former is man made philosophy
Yep Warren’s god is derived from man’s philosophy and James’s God comes from scripture.
And James White's view is actually biblical.
If open theism is true, why God predicted the rebellion of israel in Deut 31:14-32, and what will be His reaction to it.
And how many times did the Jews want to kill Jesus but couldn't because it was not Jesus's time to die and God stopped them?Again,proving man can do only what God wants him to,when He wants it.
I guess the king who ate grass for 7 yrs could have chose not too also huh 🤔
He absolutely could have refrained from lifting his heart up in Pride which brought the Judgment of God upon him.
Yes, of course, he could have eaten anything, it's just that he preferred grass 🙄.
Did you read the end of the story?
@@gracemercywrath8767 yes he repented
I think the very point of that was to demonstrate a man's self-determination being specifically overrided by God, but great argument bro.
Wow. Warren's example of Judicial hardening actually makes sense in explaining the use of wicked men to fulfill prophecy. I get it. Jesus only needed to choose a wicked man (who was ripe for judgement) as a disciple, in order to fulfill the OT Scripture.
If Judas had not chosen evil , then Jesus would have chosen a different wicked man to fulfill the prophecy. That explaination works for Pilate, etc as well.
"Judicial hardening". That phrase has my wheels turning. Even in a free will scenario, wouldn't God still be sovereign? I could see how God being Sovereign over all his creation could justly control a wicked man as a form of judgement for free will wickedness that preceded the judicial hardening. It seems that is what happened with Pharaoh too. This makes sense. I'm going to do more research.
It is a heresy though.
@@SugoiEnglish1heresy according to what standard?
10:05 Is why I watch James White. Absolute classic lol
lol these people are really clueless
Haha yep
I was interested to see that Warren McGrew is a Pelagian who denies original sin. I think if you are going to argue for Arminianism and free will, you should be a Pelagian. It is more logically consistent, even if it is a total heresy. Guys like McGrew and Leighton Flowers are masters of misrepresentation and straw manning. It's ironic that they accuse James White of this.
indeed
Pelagianism is a heterodox Christian theological position which holds that the original sin did not taint human nature and that humans have the free will to achieve human perfection without divine grace. (info only)
Like what? What straw man or misrepresentation?
@@CornerTalker what’s ironic is neither nor Warren nor Pelagius believe/d that
I have entire episodes dedicated to refuting Pelagianism 🙄
What's funny is that the same people who deny Calvinism also say God used fine tuning to create life. As if without the fine tuning, God couldn't have created life the way it is.
This is really an idiotic comment. It goes right up there with Hitchens saying that we are all atheists but he just simply believes in 1 less God than we do. It sounds good at first but really is stupid upon examination. God could have created life in any way that he chose to do so; however, no matter what way he created it, he would have created a universe that was fine tuned for that form of life.
@mjsabie8517 it's not idiotic at all. This universe has a set of rules it plays by. Cause and effect. Therefore, things are determined. I guess you don't understand that part. Determined and predetermined are not the same thing. However, if God knew what universe he was creating and actualizing out of an infinite set, this world would be predetermined and must play out to that predetermined character of the chosen universe.
actually, barely anyone says that. dumb
Warren's point is that if human beings can come up with a plan and execute it without having exhaustive knowledge of the future than God can too. God is more capable than us not less capable than us.
Yep
Without exhaustive knowledge of the future, God can formulate and execute a plan which includes minute details of a single day centuries into the future? Please confirm.
@@lkae4 Absolutely yes. For example, God can manipulate events for Jesus to be born in Bethlehem by inspiring a census requiring Joseph and Mary to return to Bethlehem. If somehow Caesar Augustus was determined to prevent a prophesy and refused to order the census, Jesus would still be born in Bethlehem some other way because God is infinitely wise and powerful.
@@BandyAndysExcellentEssays I agree, God is infinitely wise. But doesn't that contradict Wayne's stance?
"God is so powerful he can not know the future" brilliant argumentation, completely alien to scripture though. God has decreed the beginning and the end and is working all things after the coucil of his will.
McGrew sounds like a Socinian. He has literally no idea what the reformed faith is.
He's just trying to make a name for himself. He's absolutely a false teacher. Condemned by Scripture.
@@scottsimpson9506 without a doubt
i doubt he actually believes the gospel
he denies the depravity of man, the penal substitionary atonment, the exhaustiev foreknowledge of God
his channel is "idol killer" where he just spends time trying to tear down any orthodox christian belief that goes against the idol he has created in his mind
Jesus told Peter hed deny him 3 x,yet Peter, with this foreknowledge of his sin happening,he couldn't not sin.
This is what you call marrying truth to a lie. The deceiver must use the truth of the Bible and marry to their lie in order to deceive the weak.
Whose the liar here in your understanding? The one denying a basic part of theism, or the one defending basic orthodoxy?
what's the 'truth' of the bible? yhwh condoning slavery? yep, true. God commanding his enemies to be raped and children plundered? yep, true. I could go on and on but methinks maybe you haven't read your bible. Maybe you read Revelation where Jesus throws Jezebel on the bed (implying sick stuff) and will strike her children dead. Eww, you like that part, huh? Victory for you at last. Even better than winning the super bowl.
It's the non Calvinist systematic that implies that God is dependent on man's free will to get God's purposes done.
Yup
Granted I don't necessarily agree with everything from Calvinism. The free will argument they seem to have is correct. To me the ones who seem to be for free will seem to be fighting against eternal security too. Which to me is silly too. Whoever fights against eternal security to me is the real enemy.
@@NoName-oy2tk theres plenty of people who say eternal security is a false and demonic doctrine... that's how you can spot a pelagian/works righteousness person pretty quickly
@@tomtemple69 True. I never really thought about it too much, but people say free will has nothing to do with salvation, but I think the issue is linked. People try downplaying the significance of the link too. Free will means God does not have complete control like scripture describes and that God ultimately loses even a little bit because man usually tends to reject God. What is worse than just being diluted about free will is going so far to say eternal security is wicked. Both of these things seem to usually come together in discussions. They will accuse the Calvinists(I don't hold the term just because it has baggage in my opinion that people just tend to mix up with other things) of saying God is a monster destroying people, but they don't see their own error by saying God loses people because he lacks the power to save them. I have learned to go with the position that man 'is subject to vanity' like scripture says and does things contrary to God, but ultimately God is the final authority of man.
@@NoName-oy2tk "people say free will has nothing to do with salvation, but I think the issue is linked. People try downplaying the significance of the link too. Free will means God does not have complete control like scripture describes and that God ultimately loses even a little bit because man usually tends to reject God"
man doesn't USUALLY tend to reject God, every single man rejects God from birth, Romans 3:9-20
and your definition of free will contradicts the omnipotence of God
God has complete control of every single molecule and atom and force in existence in creation, He upholds every single part/piece/thing in the universe by His power continuously, the universe is not self sustaining like an engine
#1 our will is not free, it is bound to our moral ability, all moral ability of people is fallen and has no desire to believe and serve Jesus Christ even tho everyone has the natural ability
everyone can believe in Jesus, problem is no one WANTS to
God must give you a new heart with new desires(Ezekiel 36:25-27) so that you will WANT to use your natural faculties properly
it's not like your faith box is broken or malfunctioning, everyone has the tools, the natural ability
people's moral ability is corrupted by original sin, we have the tools to believe, no one has the desire to
It's not that God isn't big enough to have an eternal purpose thru which he decreees man to sin but more about God is not evil and not the author of it nor does he decree it.
Open Theism is simply , a manmade, politically correct god and doctrine. They must make God palatable to a world of rebel sinners. Just goes to show how right the Bible is,a natural man can only choose a false god for himself,no matter what he names it.
I can't believe James White declaring that Warren is using a system that is not derived from scripture. He's describing Calvinism. You have to eisegete scripture with the Calvinist systematic tenets or else you'll find that the bible doesn't support Calvinism and that systematic would completely fall apart...I never realized what a false teacher James White is. If you get the study of salvation so wrong, how can you trust anything he teaches...
The many Scriptures that describe Calvinism notwithstanding 😂
When it comes to God's SOVEREIGNTY they are willing to build a cottage for God, but man's authority is built into a skyscraper.
How so?
Folks need to watch the original videos i released. I never blamed God for men committing evil. White is taking a criticism of his view and claiming im teaching it as true. He did admit to strawmanning me.
Although I majorly disagree with points you made in the video James white reviewed. I would like check the original video out. Can you provide a link?
He isn’t straw manning you. He is pointing out that your position is incoherent, bounces around texts, ignores the parts you don’t like and elevates man’s autonomy above the divine decree of God. It’s like this. Your conception of man’s free will is unbiblical. You believe that man has the self autonomy to choose whatever he wants , whenever he wants, up to and including contrary to his nature and in opposition to the will of God. Man has the freedom to choose what his nature is, which God created and decreed in eternity past. God used the free choices of men, to follow their nature, to accomplish his plans. He doesn’t react to the choices of men, he is in sovereign control of all things
@davidliu7967 James White is recorded admitting to strawmanning me.
Calvinists: "He isn't strawmanning you."
James White is recorded affirming non-elect infants are treated like adults.
Calvinists: "James White doesn't affirm infant damnation."
James White is recorded stating God decrees all evil including every child gr@p3.
Calvinists: "He doesn't believe God decreed that!"
@@IdolKillerdude. Are you a child? He said it came across that way because you have no coherent position. Which you don’t. So it’s easy to call something a straw man in that context. It’s also hysterical when you have no biblical basis for your claims, you run right to the emotional plea. Fact remains the same, you don’t understand Biblical categories and your attempt to cram man’s philosophy onto the Bible is a failure. It’s simple. On your view prophesy in the Bible isn’t possible. You can try and do somersaults to try and fit it in, but it doesn’t work. Your roads analogy proves that point. Imagine using that illustration to prove the other person correct? Yikes. How many self-determining autonomous roads are in your neighborhood? God has a divine decree, all things must necessarily come to pass from that decree. That doesn’t eliminate the ability and reality of men choosing freely what is in accord with their nature and God using those choices to accomplish his goals and decree. The Biblical God is sovereign over all things. He isn’t the author of sin, but he uses it, restrains it and ordains it to accomplish His goals. His ways are above our ways. Just because we can’t operate on that level, doesn’t mean you can limit and handcuff God to be in your image. However, you want to rob God of that, smash Him down and force Him to operate in the same manner as the creature. You don’t understand primary and secondary causes. You don’t understand the differences of wills and you don’t understand human nature according to the Bible. What man intends for evil, God intends for good. That includes all forms of evil. ALL FORMS. Just because we don’t understand his purposes, doesn’t change the fact that He is in control of all things, at all times. We are responsible for our free choices, that are in line with our nature. This humanistic, libertarian free will is unbiblical and just a creation of man’s philosophy. As far as the provisionist, Pelegian-esque system you have going, the infant canard is getting old. The Bible doesn’t tell us exactly how God deals with infants who pass, but I trust the creator of Heaven and earth to do what is right and just. He has just as much freedom in choosing the elect as he does in saving infants. If God was a man, then you would have a point, but He is not. ALL THINGS WORK TO HIS GLORY. No manner of man’s fictitious autonomy will change that fact. You aren’t rescuing God, you are making him impotent and elevating man. Stop it
If God desires to show his holiness grace and mercy how else would he do it but create the opposite of that? How can there be up if there is no down?
If you say he doesn't have to create the bad stuff how would he showed grace and mercy anyway else?
Was grace and mercy an after thought that occurred to God after the evil just popped up by itself?
Amen God had to even make His own enemies, to be His enemies..
Having observed james for a time, time and half, it seems to me (as james is so very agitated) that james will not, and will never, debate warren, simply because it appears that he has already lost. I see fear in those beady little eyes?
This is what projection looks like. You should either contribute to the conversation or stay silent but of course open theists have nothing to contribute because their views are unbiblical.
The reason why is Warren's theology is ever changing and he is changing classical terminology in order to sound like he's agreeing with classical orthodoxy while perverted what the words mean. This happened quite a few times in church history and Warren is just another example of it. God knowing the end from the beginning, that He does all that He wills, that He frustrates the will of man, that He doesn't learn, that the thought of a man are his own but every step is of the Lord, are all things that have been held from at the latest Abraham and are explicitly taught in Scripture.
Rev. 13. [8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
but warren says, god didnt know, or that this didnt take place. ..hhhmmm.
he puts philosophy first, and scripture is an after thought
man centered reasoning from man upward to god
Cant see
God can have an overarching eternal purpose that then results in the interface within time which he saw coming in because you have done this which was part of his purpose.
The cross was plan B is a foreign religion.
God knows difference between possibilities and what is accomplish for his own glory that demonstrate the range of his attributes
"So that he could murder Jesus"
That is the only part you have to hear to know Warren's video was done in bad faith.
You're right we can not start with man. God wouldn't allow it because he is too afraid to give man free will just in case man might thwart God's sovereignty! In case no one knew man is actually that powerful!!
I bet Warren McGrew's Bible has a sharpie mark over Proverbs 16:4
99% of Pelegians, Armenians, Leighton-ites, podcasts are merely them expressing their "feelings." Very little scripture interpreting scripture. That's why I thank the Lord for Brother White.
Proverbs 15:22 KJV
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.
Nooo please don't dismiss what he's saying. Just repeat, what he's saying correctly! Represent what he's saying correctly. God decreed the evil of Joseph's brothers. Don't forget to incorporate that part in what McGrew was saying and dont intentionally omit it!!
Revelation 13:8 NASB
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Gill writes:
The year of the crucifixion is properly the commencement of Christianity, as the apostles then first began to promulgate the religion of Christ with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven.But as Jesus Christ was in the Divine purpose appointed from the foundation of the world to redeem man by his blood, he therefore is, in a very eminent sense, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, i.e., from the creation.
Before sin was committed by Adam and Eve, the Plan of Salvation was from the CREATION, which means God's eternal foreknowledge of all things. And, not in response to their sins in the Garden of Eden.
J. Baptist was a contingent fulfillment of the prophecy that Elijah would come before the messiah. Prophecy can be fulfilled in different ways.
So God is to weak to allow a thousand or a million free will choices and still accomplish His will? That is a very weak God!
I had not seen this yet. Wow we need way more of this clear teaching of Gods word. Mr. Magoo has really become a joke but a dangerous joke since many people do not have the ability to see it.
You need to listen to what Warren said, not what James White says Warren said!
@@tommycapps9903 I have and I have also attempted to dialogue with him and all I got in return was sarcasm.
If someone denies mans sinful nature after the fall, that prevents us from living in communion with God the Father and also rejects penal substitutionary atonement that gives us communion with the Father, through the work of the Son, that person has left the Christian faith.
All I have seen is Warren rejecting those 2 things. I could be wrong. I may have misunderstood so I will stand corrected if need be. However, Warrens continual attacks against those of us who are trying to understand why and how Christians see these things differently makes it impossible to treat him with any degree of seriousness. I only see him being urged on by his adoring fans. His pride in his own work is barely contained.
Lack of discernment is sorely missing among most Christians today.
@@davevandervelde4799- "his pride"?? Do you know him personally? Are you saying James White has no obvious pride issues? The most prideful and short tempered people I know are Calvinist.
@@tommycapps9903 Pride in Calvinism is a problem. When you believe God is unconditionally saving men but then you come across like you are better for some reason, then you have pride or at least the appearance of it.
The Calvinist should be humble, knowing that all men need exactly the same thing- Grace from God.
I think that we need to be humble before God first and then our actions to others should reflect that. The only way to be humble before God is to know you were brought out of the bondage of slavery to sin and owe Him everything. Leighton playing soft music for example or someone speaking very quietly and gently is not humility. Humility is in what you say and give God ALL the glory knowing what you deserve.
The comments to Warrens videos that "mock" are a perfect illustration of this.
Curious if there is an opposing view out there that you won’t strawman…..smh
Wait did White straw man?
I think that God imposes His will when He >>wants to
And white has the more biblical position
This "I used to be a Calvinist" thing is getting pretty silly.
Yeah. Every time someone says that; they proceed to demonstrate that they are either lying or ignorant
Molinism, named after 16th-century Spanish Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina, is a view which affirms a strong notion of God's control of events in the world, alongside an equally firm view of human freedom. In this thinking, God retains divine providence without hindering humanity's freedom because God knows what any person would freely do in any particular situation.
And still lame
Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God chooses not to know what we will freely do in the future. Open theism, also known as openness theology and free will theism, is a rejection to the synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian theology.
Open theism is a false religion that will land you in hell for believing in a false god. There is no salvation outside of the real Christ. Ironically you say it is a rejection of philosophy, but open theism only comes as a result of philosophy rather than sound exegesis.
Furthermore, this man rejects original sin. He is a heretic.
@@retrograd332 This is not in any way a personal statement of belief; I'm simply providing info for anyone not familiar.
@@CornerTalker Fair enough and I apologize if I came off as heated. My rebuke was not specifically toward you, but for those falling into this system and ending up in hell. Hopefully, they will see the warning and flee to Christ instead and not their own "free will". Our fallen nature (which is what the Bible actually teaches in Romans 3) makes for a poor savior.
@NicoCoco I appreciate you admitting Calvinism is a different religion from the rest of Christianity. I totally agree and I am glad to hear it clearly stated.
@@retrograd332 so hopefully they repent with the ability they don’t have? Is that a coherent view friend?
Is this warren guy serious? Or is he just trying to become known? Give him a copy of A child’s guide to the Westminster shorter catechism.
no and yes. he specifically said he wanted to debate Dr White in order to benefit himself. He admitted that White would not benefit at all from debating him but that he would: "If I lose, I lose to James White. If I win, I beat James White" as if this is the point of any debate and not to expose error. He's full of himself.
@@barkwahlmerg not very honest, are you?
I noted how in the world of academia Dr White and I are not peers, thus agreeing to debate me would pose more problems for him than myself. I was being gracious and noting this for my audience. Your gaslighting and spin are thoroughly dishonest.
What is “eternity past”? The definition of eternity that I understand has no past or future. YHWH, Who inhabits eternity (Is 57:15), is eternally present. It is His Name: He is in the objective and I am in the subjective. That which is presently determined in eternity is chronological executed in time by virtue of the nature of time which, by definition, is not eternal.
@Saratogan The word used in 57:15 for "eternity" most certainly can be used of the past (Job 20:4 -- "it has been this way since old [same word - eternity] ever since humankind was placed on the earth). There are nearly 300 years between the writing of Isaiah and Plato's concept of the eternal present.
@@briancross9571 ever since human kind was placed on earth is not eternity. “In the beginning...”. The beginning of what? Well, that would be time. Time is only required for contingent beings. It is not a boundary placed on He Who inhabitants eternity. Eternity, by definition, is not time dependent. Clearly, it is time independent as is He Who inhabitants it.
@@Saratogan "In the beginning..." likely just refers to the beginning of the story of man (not God). Also you are giving the 4th defintion (from Webster's) of "eternal". Mostly "eternal" just means "infinite duration". Your definition comes mostly from the pagan greek concept of the eternal now. The other fits more with the Hebrew understanding of time. In fact, sometimes, as you point out, they use it as hyperbole.
@Saratogan I'm curious what your feeling of us gaining "eternal life" means from your viewpoint of Eternity? Would you suggest we mere mortals can slip outside of time somehow? Or is that different?
@@briancross9571 , in the beginning does not refer to the being of man. It means, in context, the beginning of creation. Man’s beginning is the last act of the chronology of creation. Chronology begins with creation.
Wow!
James is so agitated!
Clearly Warren is hitting at the core of a flawed system.
This is why I call him Mr. Magoo. He’s like a cartoon character joke.
Amen Dr. White! It's CDS simplex 10 all day long! LOL
Don't forget get about the evil of preborn infants. I don't know what those babies did but they did it!
Lam 3;37 Who can say it and it come to pass unless the Lord has decreed it? Man's free will plays no part in determining what has or will happen. How many examples can we see,in scripture,,where men WANTED to commit certain sins,but God did not let theM? So if a man cannot do all the sin he wants,then he is not free,only GOD IS FREE.
How do you know that?
Because the Bible teaches it.@@coreylapinas1000
@@CBALLEN how do you know the Bible teaches that?
@@coreylapinas1000 Because God gave me the Holy Spirit who gave me eyes to see and ears to hear.
@@CBALLENhow do you know you were given the Holy Spirit? What enables you to discern this experience?
Wow White plays the fool here... Standard James White though. Never ever counters his opponents' positions but just uses all the old rhetoric garbage arguments known to man. Well and truly running the gas light yet again.
Oh, my guy. Do you even read your Bible?
Warren is wrong.
Another open theist gnashing his teeth. Try actually countering what hes saying instead of resorting to... what'd you call it? "Rhetorical garbage", you guys are great at projecting.
What are you talking about? He engaged and took apart Warren's argument for the whole video. You're just mad bro.
I enjoy listening to JW. I don’t understand the need to wear a cross.
DUDE GET OF SOCIAL MEDIA. YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED
Yeah, Warren McGrew is a heretic. He should get off social media for sure
mcgrew almost literally pulls stuff out of the air to justify his nonsense
How can God accomplish His purposes if he is totally dependent on the autonomous will of man? If men decide not to ever cooperate then God's purposes cannot be accomplished.
God's foreknowledge of future events will always be incompatible with Libertarian free will period. Open Theism has God depending on coincidence and luck for his purposes. Mcgrew is beating the bush
The guy is a Socinian.
He's trying to be charismatic like Mike Winger, but inside that mask he is a troll.
10:05 --- Dude, just stop. He already said it correctly. You got it wrong when you tried to correct him.
I take it James White doesn't know Greek. I can't imagine someone correcting the correct pronunciation of a word with the wrong one if you were actually familiar with the language. Although I'm struggling to understand why he didn't at least check before he acted so pompous on video.
@@briancross9571 Brian, the ignorance of this statement is just astounding. He *teaches* Greek!!
@@johnmyers3450 That makes it sad. BTW -- there are plenty of ways to fact-check how the word is pronounced. There is a website howtopronounce( /greek/από), Google Translate (&text=από), watch some Greek movies, etc.
I imagine it in my head something like an English as a 2nd Lang class where Inspector Clouseau teaches the class how to order a hamburger.
It doesn't matter how the word is pronounced. There were so many people from all parts of the world speaking Greek at that time probably both pronunciations occurred and then some.
God did not decree the sacrifice of children nor did it enter his mind. Did God decree Adam's sin?? Then why did he pretend he didn't know about it??
Dr Whites homeboy at 18:00 funny af
1:10 sharnock
Remove Augustine’s Gnostic influence and eisegesis - and there would be no Calvinism today. Pure and simple.
James White please stop being deceptive! Warren never said God was dependent upon evil, you guys are the ones that say God decrees evil! Your claim that anyone who is a former Calvinist wasn’t really a Calvinist is childish and silly!
You need to stop being ignorant at best, Mcgrew was claiming that White believed “God is dependent upon evil,…
@@tricord2939- No Sir his point is the same point that has been Calvinism for 1,000 of years. God decreed all events in history; the Holocaust, rape, and all other evil. God can't know the future without decreeing all future events. That's Calvinism please don't lie about it. If you have to lie about it you would better to leave it!
@@tommycapps9903 Incorrect, you are making ignorant statements. James White nor any Calvinist preacher has ever claimed God is dependent on evil, as you claim.
@@tricord2939- You certainly must be a Calvinist because not only did you twist Warren's words to say something he never said, now you have twisted MY words as well. Just like Calvinist twist the scriptures. Where did I say God was dependent on evil. It's worse God decrees evil.
@@tricord2939- How about addressing WHAT I said and not some red herring!
😘👏
lol! YHVH's *WILL* was [1] that HIS Son be born and die our Lord and Savior; *NOT* that [2] Pilot and a specific crew of crucifiers crucify Yeshua at an exact millisecond, of a specific hour, on a specific day. [3] Alternatives exist to accomplish [1] that *DO NOT* entail [2]. [4] YHVH *IS NOT limited to or confined by* a single unchangeable predetermined scenario HE conceived prior to Creation. [5] Fatalistic determinism is a fallacious Reformed Theology presupposition *NOT* found in the Bible.
4:27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
4:28 to *do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur* .
Oops!
And:
“... he came the third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough; the hour has come. The Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.” (Mark 14:41)
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know- this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.” (Acts 2:22-23)
“In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:3-5)
_[Edit: Added line space.]_
@@electronicMI --- lol! You guys will have to try harder. Mindlessly misquoting scripture out of context isn't an argument.
*EXAMPLE!* Why would he say “Are you still sleeping and taking your rest?" if Calvinism's interpretation is true. On Calvinism people are just marionettes dangling from the strings of the Calvinist God mindlessly regurgitating a dialogue written for them eons ago prior to Creation of the universe.
@@JohnQPublic11 wrote: "Mindlessly misquoting scripture out of context isn't an argument."
Misquoting?
Scripture stands. Your opinions? Not so much.
Yeah! I have no doubt that, in your views, you represent John Q. Public.
The caricatures of Calvinism is all they have. No historic Calvinist has ever said that we are puppets with no control whatsoever over our minds and wills. It’s laughable. That’s hyper-Calvinism and Warren is crying about being mis-represented 😂They take God, strip him of what makes Him God and forces Him to operate by the same parameters as man. They really need to understand the difference between creature and creator
The gun analogy is becoming tired and pathetic, James. Nobody is saying that your god put a gun to Adam's head. And as a Supralapsarian, I have to ask what animated Adam to sin? You cannot go with the old "but god stopped restraining his evil" canard because Adam was created good.
You are a canard! This question is essentially impossible to answer other than to derive logical explanation! You don’t have the logical capacity because if you did you would not have asked the question I am replying to!😂
We all agree, the gun analogy is tired and pathetic. The question remains, when will provisionists, Arminians and open theists, stop characterizing God as conducting Himself this way. We are only articulating the responses that originate from your camp of thought.
@@MickJagger-el6oflolno. Meds now. Worst argument I've ever heard.
@@coreylapinas1000 But instead of addressing how what I stated isn’t true, you resort to mocking lol’s and a suggestion I need meds. You say it’s the “worst argument ever” yet say absolutely nothing to substantiate why. By the way, I’m not offended. The truth you deny doesn’t belong to me. It isn’t me you’re attacking whether you realize that or not.
@@MickJagger-el6of it's a bad argument because on Calvinism, Adam has no impetus without the divine decree; he should just flop over like a hand puppet. We at least believe God has endowed Adam with his own impetus. Your argument amounts to trying to pass White's pathetic hot-potato of the gun analogy to someone it doesn't belong.
he can't spell either: "dependant"