Imogen's tenure on this podcast series has been excellent, with a real intent to learn and update/ challenge her own knowledge and opinions. She doesn't interrupt guests, either!
I am am avid listener to the Fully Charged and Everything Electric podcasts and for me, this is the best one yet! In brief, I would put my view down to 3 reasons: 1) The topic which is fundamental, highly complex but essential to understand, 2) the Guest Anna who is so well informed and sees & can explain so eloquently the bigger picture, and 3) the presenter Imogen who has clearly prepared well prior to the podcast, has the ability to understand, analyse and clarify the responses and can consequently ask meaningful questions in return to get the most out of her guest, (all things that were perhaps lacking in the past with our beloved Robert)? Brilliant and this is taking your podcasts to new heights ….. but can you keep the bar so high?
Imogen, I really love your style of interviewing and how prepared you are with follow-ups and tangent thoughts as well as being cognisant of possible bias and limited knowledge. If only all who use social media would bring this toolkit, we'd be a bit wiser and a little less stressed
Outstanding episode, thank you. Could I possibly suggest a moderated discussion between Ana and the lady on Quentin's recent podcast who was from the national grid. The reason I suggest that is that there appear to be diametrically opposed views... Ana was clear that the grid is a major chokepoint, Quentin's guest was equally clear that the grid has capacity. I appreciate the answer is somewhere between those two extremes but this is a prime example where drilling in to the nuances is required or whichever podcast you watched is accepted as an absolute answer.
Absolutely. If all is fine at the Grid, why the 10-year waiting lists for connections? This bottleneck, or potential bottleneck, has been known about for a long time. If the National Grid has been beavering away to add additional capacity to match the increased rate of production, then bravo. But I have to say I'm sceptical.
If course the grid has capacity, after all a decade or more ago the total demand was much higher. However the grid is the high voltage transmission network. Where the grid lacks is the connection to renewable generators located far from the grid itself (contrary to accepted electrical engineering principle that supply and demand should be as close as possible) Overall reliable generation capacity has fallen and the local area (Low voltage network) will struggle with the increase in evs and heat pumps, it's not designed or sized for that continued high demand.
@@iareid8255Ok the increased range of generation facilities. Which is an issue that has been known about for a long time, I remember reading how the grid would need upgrading owing to the dispersed nature of renewables 15 or 20 years ago. Is not providing that connectivity the responsibility of National Grid?
Pat, probably although I don't know for certain. Building extra transmission lines cannot be done quickly but the real point is that following the renewabloe spath is detrimental to teh economic and stable opertaion of teh grid. Renewables are cheap is false and ideally none would be connected to the grid.
Great podcast, well done Imogen and Ana, great questions, very good explanations and a joy to listen to. I work for a renewable energy development company and Ana's message is completely in line with what we hear from the industry. We need to force our governments to do better, to work quicker by voting for parties that will genuinely do put the right policies in place. If we don't move fast enough, the cost to all of is us is massive. The impact of extreme climate events is already running in the billions and that is set to increase as the temperature average creeps up. The impact on health, in particular respiratory health, from hydrocarbons is massive, with a massive cost to our healthcare systems but to the day to day lives of the people who live with it, both directly and indirectly. The investments we need in renewable development is massive, the cost of doing it too slow is much higher, that is now abundantly clear.
That was a fascinating discussion. Unfortunately my little brain was unable to process all the information so I still don't understand it fully. I will watch again, maybe twice, until I get a better grip on it. Thanks for bringing this challenging topic to my attention.
Having short term governments work towards long term solutions has always been difficult. Hopefully we can get politicians able to think outside of the media misinformation and lobbyists propaganda to make a better future.
Yes, one of the few benefits of a dictatorship like the CCP is that they're not living in a four yearly cycle between stops on the gravy train like western governments do. We have the horrendous lurches blue to red and back. The whole system is broken. It's tragic.
As always, consumer preference will render government affairs irrelevant. When did any government ever mandate that every adult should have a smartphone, or a TV, or a kettle?
Imogen, your honesty and ability to confess those parts of your knowledge in which you declare ignorance as well as, at the same time, demonstrating your ability to decode very complex subject matter for listeners like me, is invaluable in enabling greater understanding of the reality of problem solving, which engages with a combination of logistics, economics, politics and perhaps most importantly, helping everyone who cares to listen and engage in the debate learn how to cope with the huge challenge of the transition. Thank you for being so cheerful and engaging in the way in which you present this subject. Thanks too for Ana in giving us her time. You are top gals (the female equivalent of top blokes. 👍🏻🙏
Liked this podcast best of the ones you've done Imogen as you asked a lot of important questions to increase our knowledge and very much helped by a very informed straight talking guest in Ana. It would be great to have her back on every few months to give an update/discussion on something that is so important to everyone, the cost of energy.
I’ve come back to this episode a few months later as Ana was such a great knowledgable guest & Imogen asked all the right questions! I always thought it was outrageous that gas set the price of electricity but the marginal pricing explanation made sense.
Great interview ladies! Wishing UK and the whole world a rapid and smooth transition to high insulation, high efficiency and renewably powered electricity! Here in Canada I have helped build onshore wind farms for 13 years 🇨🇦. If I ever get bored I coming to UK to install offshore.
I will be honest, most of that was way over my head, but thank you for not compromising in your persuit of knowledge. I will come back in a week or so and see if I get anymore through my thick skull.
This is like everything, far more complex when you look under the surface. Imogen was great accepting that we can all still learn and look at things differently. Thank you
Thanks Imogene for asking the questions, a lot of us do have! And thanks to Anna for answering these questions in an easy to understand way! -- the only thing I still don't get is, why the most expensive energy form is still allowed to dictate the price. The explanation Anna gave left me actually more puzzled. We all agree, that we need to have some form of energy coverage for the moments that renewables are not producing. But why does it have to determine the price of all energy consumed? Why not have a weighted average? I do have a time of use tariff and the average actually average works out at approximately 0.07€/kWh or including tax and other costs 0.25€/kWh, while peak price (typically just an hour per day) are 0.12€-0.16€/kWh (+0.18€/kWh fixed) so a lot of consumers are paying most of the time at least 5cts/kWh too much. This is quite an incentive for utilities to make sure they "have to" switch on the gas turbine...
Thank you, terrific podcast with two very intelligent women. I'm exhausted mentally from just listening to it. I'm old enough to remember when energy generation was nationised and we didn't need these complicated financial structures. The current system is gamed against renewables and our corrupt government are in the pay of the oil and gas industries. The future needs to be gamed towards the consumer.
This was an outstanding and very educational podcast 👏🏻 Imogen - you don't need to keep apologising for your questions! My questions would have been much more simplistic, and anyway, your questions generated some amazing and insightful answers from Ana. As others have said, I love how prepared you were for chairing this interview, fantastic work! 😊
Thanks for a great discussion. So much to unpack. For me it highlights the importance of the political and economic process rather than perhaps the technology which we tend to get excited about. It greaves me greatly that we still stop turbines turning because we are choosing to burn gas! What a waste. I think a previous episode that Robert did with a chap in the Orkneys highlighted the stupidity of the years it has taken to get a better cable to manage the load to the mainland. Please politicians, we must work harder to sort these issues out. Take them out of short term party goals and promises. Listen to the people. We want this to happen.
Very informative episode, thanks Imogen and the Fully Charged Podcast team! I had a fantastic time at Everything Electric on Friday, can’t wait to see you all in Farnborough!
Great episode. How refreshing to hear two very intelligent erudite women in conversation. In fact your guest is so bright and quick thinking and I am hampered by chronic illness which impairs my ability to process quickly, I actually had to slow down the video while she was speaking to be able to take in all the important detail she was imparting. I'm so glad I was recently shown this facility to use for singing practice with choral music videos, who knew it would be so valuable for FCS podcasts?!😂 Nevertheless I plan on re-watching this excellent, nuanced piece, many thanks Imogen and guest, I'm sorry I have memory impairment too and the name of your guest escapes me temporarily. 🤯👍
When you listen to the IPCC and the IEA, it is clear that most countries and the UK in particular, need to improve and expand their grid to meet net zero targets. When you listen to renewable energy generators and investors, they say that their projects are currently blocked at the connection stage. When you listen to the UK government you hear “we are doing everything in our power to do just that” 😅 When you listen to National Grid and more local DNOs/DSOs they say: “we are first and foremost going to work towards net zero by boosting flexibility… and only reinforce the network or build more when absolutely necessary”. It just shows you that one should not privatise something as important as the maintenance and the deployment of the grid, simply because corporate interests in short term revenues and dividends are at odds with public interest. (For those who don’t know National Grid is not a national asset 😂)
Hmm ... learned a lot? How so? Never forget there are other outfits who may whistle a different tune or just another "arrangement" as it were. This guest introduced the notion of "green hydrogen" into the argument which then prompted criticism from those posters who believe they knew "better". Me for one backing green hydrogen. Imogen made not a single comment pertaining to "green hydrogen" in response despite the guest repeating herself perhaps eight or nine times. Does this imply that any "positive" mention of green hydrogen on this platform is 'forbidden"? So, when you assert you have "learned stuff" what did you learn? If you wish to be informed then plenty of other "energy platforms" which might be biased towards another technology you can peruse to gain a balanced insight.
What was it Ridley Scott said recently? 'Get a life!' I read lots of different sources and don't agree with everything on any one of them. But I still learnt a lot from this discussion, whether or not you like everything said.@@t1n4444
@@t1n4444 Green hydrogen is one possible future long term storage solution, but there are other possibilities as well. I think the guest, Ann I believe, was just stating that some sort of energy storage system could be used to provide extra capacity.
Brilliant episode. Please being us more like this to help inform us all about the possibility of a bright future if we can only get our politicians to take this seriously and to act consistently....
The politicos take this fossil fuel stuff very seriously indeed. You might consider that many a share portfolio has a fair few holdings in fossil fuels. You shouldn't need me to explain what an abrupt shutdown of fossil fuel use would do to investments.
This is so inspirational, I think this discussion really helps tackle through the weeds or our path to net zero. With the obvious need to build out the grid network and a huge new renewable zero carbon buffer such as BESS or even the dreaded stored green hydrogen?! Or even multiple other novel systems. I’m intrigued to know if contract for difference will have a true benefit for enhancing the free market of renewable energy supply and decoupling our reliance on fossil fuels.
Great episode. Thank you. My main takeaway is that I should finally get a home storage battery, thereby investing in renewable technology, fully leverage my solar and ev tariff and in doing so, sidestep gas pegged marginal electricity pricing.
All good stuff as usual. However I was racking my brains trying to find any announcement by the government today regarding the building of new gas generation. After some research I found that this was in the news on 12 March ( I remember it now). I can only conclude that this Podcast was recorded on the same day. Why wasn't it uploaded at the time when it was more relevant?
We owners at Ripple are being asked to vote the CFDs and most people I have seen and read are saying NO. But now that I understand the dynamics of the system I am leaning to say Yes. But on the otherhand, do I Trust the Government currently in power on that threshold NO. The problem of wind and solar, being seen as a commdity is that it is dictated by nature and her ability to stop or slow production. At no point in this conversation has Tidal energy been mentioned, which I have read can cover 20% of this countries energy needs, our base level, which is a predictable, and offers more guarantees than any other renewable. But we are not mentioning this WHY? At this point I should point out I am 2 thirds of the way through the video. The cost of this is likely to significantly lower compare to Nuclear by a long margin. Storage in my view should be focused on home storage for ALL. Every house in the UK should have a enough storage for one day energy needs, as a figure in the air analogy. Plus some of that could include V2H and V2G as part of that solution. There are 24.8 million households in England and Wales, if just 10% of those had V2G and another 10% had already bought into the home battery market. That would leave 19.8 million homes that need a battery. New builds would have to come with a solar battery system as standard. That could provide 200GW of available storage. This could also be applied to businesses. Couple this with storage at the wind farms, and solar farms that could cover a days usage would help with the fluctuation of nature and her part play in this brave new world we all want to see and desire. Green hydrogen is so inefficient to use as storage, battery would be way more efficient and offer better security if made accessible to the grid operators by way of control through the internet, or through the smart meter supplied by the owners energy suppliers. Steel making is no more in this country.
You don't even need the home battery. . Just 1 400W panel would provide 50% + of the daytime capacity for most homes. Just enough to keep things ticking over most of the time.
Hmm ... your post was utter tripe from when you started droning on about individual home energy storage and anti hydrogen nonsense. In fact it's very likely you're still at school. Suggest you start doing some research on the topics you mentioned prior to posting.
@@rogerstarkey5390 More tripe. Any chance of some math to support this 400W nonsense of yours. You neglected to include the need for "a battery" pack. Why? Plus you appear not to have explained some earlier remarks of yours. Why? Kindly do so now.
Thanks. We won't need gas baseload, as renewables and storage prices continue to drop exponentially, so you could build 150-200% power capacity compared to today, and still have 100% capacity on days with low renewables production.
Yes, isn't it amazing how little recognition there is for the perpetual, predictable energy tidal stream can provide, particularly for the UK, whose west coast hosts the 2nd largest tidal range on the planet! Not to mention the windiest place in the European geographic region. We are incredibly blessed with natural resource.
Definitely be interested in this, this could stop the need for new gas plants, even take one off line if there were enough cars connected to the grid. Why not make V2G mandatory. Wouldn't mind making a few 💰 and supporting the grid. Also wouldn't mind hearing about really deep geothermal, for potentially taking over powering nuclear and coal powered turbines, might need less wind turbines onshore.
Imogen is the best. I'm amazed at her performance on this episode. I worked in wind at a manufacturer (Vestas) as a sales person with technical and financial background. I'd love to add some color and an additional perspective if given the chance!
I'd like to see more education on how widespread use of solar with home batteries, or privately owned EVs, with 2-way charging, would go a long way to taking the pressure off the grid. An EV can typically hold 3 ~7 days worth energy for a typical 3/4 bedroom home, as a rough guide. The more people home-generate & store energy (distributed), the less energy needs to be transmitted across the grid.
Imogen please do a deep dive into permitting process for new transmission lines and Sub-Stations. It’s seems like a Global-Local problem. All national governments seem to be challenged by this issue, all being blocked by local authorities, no matter what country they are in. It would be interesting to know what the local authorities are hearing, what or why are they not approving projects. And also if any permits were successful why. And why do they take so long? How can they move faster
I am wondering what difference is being made by home solar installations. Over the last two years my roof has generated 11.6mWh and I have read that there are between 10000 and 20000 (a bit vague) installations a year at the moment. Provided they all have batteries it must make a difference, for a start you won't be overloading the local grid when the sun is shining and you won't be drawing power when there is a shortage. Incidentally, because I have a car I am able to charge my pylon batteries very cheaply over night in the winter.
Google, not quite so simple. solar produces most power when demand is lower, nothing when demand is at the peak contrary to your view. The greater the amount of locally connected solar the bigger the adverse grid reaction when clouds cover the sky. Solar is an uncontrollable source of generation but the grid must be finely controlled with regard to supply and demand on an instantaneous basis. It can be so bad in places like Australia with high sun cover and large domestic solar installations that the grid operator has had to trip solar installations from the system by increasing system voltage above solar controller limit. It is that disruptive.
Jude, that is up to individual home owners if they wish to add batteries and yes that could assist the grid in avery small way. Grid connected batteries do not and cannot cover intermittency, their purpose is frequency support, necessary in no small part because of the intermittent nature of renewable generation. Renewables are neither equal to or a replacement for conventional generation.
@@iareid8255I would be interested to know why you assert that grid connected batteries cannot cover intermittency. Surely if they are sized correctly for local need just as one would size household batteries for ones own requirements they should be able to provide power when and where it's needed? I am no expert and perhaps you are so if you could elucidate for me I would be most interested to understand. Bear in mind I am unable to differentiate between the two phrases "intermittency" and "frequency support".
As important as all the other issues discussed were, my ears pricked up on grid capacity and how that has to shift somewhat. My question is regarding the role of: 1. grid-scale storage at or close to the site of renewable generation, and 2. decentralised/distributed small-scale renewable generation (e.g. EV charging stations or similar, using solar and/or a wind turbine or both with batteries to reduce their grid demand and also support the grid in periods of peak demand), in reducing the extent of grid capacity upgrades.
Not sure I understood a lot of this. Sounds like prices could go up or down and marginal pricing is fine and normal. There was also some stuff about improving the infrastructure ???
The big question that this podcast sought to address was, now that we have loads of cheap renewables why aren't customers seeing the benefit? The podcast then explained that most renewables are on CfD which effectively decouples renewables from gas contracts. So my question is, if we have loads of cheap renewables which are mostly on CfD contracts (which decouples them from gas prices) why aren't we seeing the benefit?
There are battery solutions to those storage issues. Logistics companies like Amazon can figure out the best methods to deliver goods quickly. Why can't grid operators do the same? Instead of giving fuel allowances, give every home a battery. Homes are forced to have septic tanks, so why not make sure every new home has a battery big enough to support 1 week of energy needs.
In terms of keeping older gas fired electricity power stations, there are several of these in North Lincolnshire that are on standby but not actually generating electricity ... Given that we already have older but functional gas power stations, why would we need to build new ones? I know that sounds an obvious question, but I have not ever heard it asked. In terms of renewables [wind, tidal, solar, ... in the main], would it be fair to say that the real answer is to have built-in over capacity and a sink load so as to absorb the extra power? By this I mean splitting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen by electrolysis, which then could be used as a pure and environmentally friendly fuel buffer. ... Best wishes from George in Herefordshire.
Quite so. I note we see the "hydrogen" word typed more often. Has this platform undergone a Damascene Conversion? Come on Robert, tell us you have left behind your battery hugger amigos, seen the pale blue light and smelled the hydrogen. Some might say "not before time". I know I do.
@@t1n4444there is an important difference between using hydrogen as a storage medium i.e. using renewables to produce hydrogen which is later used to generate electricity later and using hydrogen as a fuel I.e. heating , transport. The fossil fuel lobby are keen to confuse the two and extend the hydrogen (its green init) production from fossil fuels. The ee team have been very good at explaining this because using hydrogen as fuel is very very energy inefficient. For example a hydrogen grid for home heating.
@@ambassadorfromreality1125 Yet we are seeing pure hydrogen being used for heating in pilot schemes in Fife, Scotland. Hydrogen had been used for heating in the form of the pre 1967 "town gas". Town gas consisted of 49% hydrogen, 34% methane and carbon monoxide (and yes CO is flammable). Post 1967 UK went over to North Sea gas. Ref hydrogen gas in homes, it may be Grant Shapps has been led astray by those with interests elsewhere? The idea is to "decarbonise" our atmosphere. Cost doesn't really come into it if we factor in rebuilding our "habitation" above the 200ft contour. Google will help find chapter and verse on the topic.
@@ambassadorfromreality1125 Hydrogen is going to be part of the solution, particularly in balancing renewable production with peak demands on the grid. Using Hydrogen in vehicular transport is presently pretty hopeless, but perhaps the scientific research will come up with something better. One thing is for certain, making Hydrogen from fossil fuels is utter madness, and must be called out each time the fossil fuel enterprises try to push it! Best wishes from George
I think we are better off investing the money in renewable energy, rather than newer power plants. The older power plants will be reducing their negative effects by simply running less often, right up to the point we can knock the things down. I just can't see it being energy efficient to build new plants that will also be destined to be knocked down. I would have thought the solar and wind farms, and batteries that can built at the cost of a new power plant, would be far more effective than the difference between the less effective old and more effective new power plants.
When the price on the wholesale market is well above the CFD guaranteed price, does /all/ of the surplus go back to this contracting government corporation? If the CFD price is 80/MWh and the price falls to 70 the producer collects 10/MWh, but if the price goes up to 150 like it might, does all of the 70 additional have to be repaid or do they keep some fraction of that? It seems slightly unfair to not have the generator keep some of the value of production at those times.
It's a transition. 30 years ago there was the start of the transition from coal to gas, and similar concerns regarding marginal pricing were expressed. This will be a similar process, and mass adoprion of EV's, with car to load facility, and next generation smart metering, will be part of the part of the solution for delivering a large volume of demand side response which currently isn't available. Installed renewable capacity equal to max demand + demand side response and storage, will evolve, but it has to be supported by financial incentives such as capacity market or marginal pricing. Regarding the "new gas stations", these won't be base load, they'll probably be short term response open cycle units, necessary to maintain stability during transition.
Utter nonsense. Battery EVs are no longer the vehicle that people aspire to. You might have noticed had you been keeping up with the automotive press and MSM.
An excellent episode - I particularly valued the dive into marginal pricing of gas in the electricity market. Imogen does a great job getting her head around the issues with excellent interview technique. 👏👏
I live on the coast in the Scottish Borders, just up the road is the Drone Hill Wind Farm and off shore is the Near na Gaothe wind farm which stretches from Eyemouth up to Dundee over the Firth of Forth. It is designed to generate 450 megawatts and was supposed to open in 2023 but has been delayed due to 'supply chain issues'. The power comes onshore near the old Torness Nuclear power station. I worked in the nuclear industry for 25 years. Renewable energy seems chaotic with shareholders selling out until virtual monopolies exist...
The bin? Just a tad presumptuous of you ... Don't you suppose Robert et al can do their own wash up meeting? Besides next year we're most likely to see hydrogen fuel cell vehicles now we know for certain battery EVs are not the first choice for car buyers in UK. In fact we might see less of a sales push of said battery EVs in UK on the grounds very few people want them these days. For them as are inclined to disagree suggest you research for yourself on the state of the UK market. Why not look at residuals, cost of insurance, re-charging issues, self igniting batteries first and then then go from there. We've seen the ULEZ restrictions ... how long before we see weight restrictions applied to suburban residential roads and the older multistorey car parks. Even if the load on the concrete structure isn't that great then who's to say outfits like NCP will be happy to take the risk? If there were cracks found then the local authorities might be obliged "to do something about it" as in shut down the structures and introduce "park and ride" across the nation? Putting a levy on the council tax so as to persuade people to use free public transport might actually work. Trying to park in a non-existent multistory carpark might be one way of getting private cars out of cities. Let's go for that.
@@t1n4444since you asked so nicely, here’s my feedback: I’m looking to buy my first car (I’m 50, moving out of london where I’ve never needed one) - obviously I want to buy a BEV. Did two test drives, with BYD Dolphin and Ionic 5, but in both cases the sales person hadn’t had full training on the car so they couldn’t help me adjust cruise control, Lane following etc. both cars were set up badly with very jerky start/stop and I managed to get them much smoother but with no help. There were no cars or manufacturers there in the sub-30k range, eg Citroen C3 - please encourage them to be there next time - I was looking to purchase at the show if I’d liked it. Brought my parents who came in very sceptical about BEV, Solar and heat pumps but left buzzing about how great they are and looking to upgrade from gas. However the theatre sessions were described by them as “doom mongering” and they left upset rather than knowing what they could do about it. I didn’t hear them, but maybe a better mix of dose-of-reality and what-you-can-do? Wanted to get parents to switch to BEV but test drives limited to under 70 years old, so I couldn’t get them in one to show them how easy they are to drive. Maybe put pressure on exhibitors to allow all ages to test drive? Even if insurers will only allow them to drive around the private land?
Considering all the comments, I wish someone (or even I given my decade of experience in the field) could give a small lecture on: - wind energy - how a wind project is valued - how incentives have been given by governments historically - why does the government offer the current incentives (CFDs and auctions) - how the energy market works - how is the price set (and why wind is paid the same as gas)
Very good discussion, although not ideal for my 4pm brain. I am not an energy economist. Both Ana and Imogen mention base load at around 34 minutes. I thought this was an old term used for the amount of load that a coal fired power station needed to keep it chugging along, which is quite different to having enough generation at any moment in time to meet demand spikes when maybe the wind isn't blowing or to provide grid services that manage the quality of the electricity, such as voltage regulation and frequency response which can be provided through other means like grid forming inverters. Maybe let's not use "base load" because that's the terminology used by the fossil guys to justify burning stuff for as long as possible. It's a very minor point in the discussion, I just find it to be a loaded term. Carry on 😊, you guys are doing a great job with these deep dives 👍.
The grid and electricity generation is a complicated business! Transition is complicated so the government must be driving the necessary changes and commit for next 25 years possibly longer. When a government can last 40 days 😀 how do you achieve that long term commitment? Ofgem recently increased the standing charge for electricity to recors high. So if like me you invested in solar and battery you just saw your bill increasing for this summer 😞. I won't use the grid much but will pay more for it. But I understand we need a strong grid. So many things to change! Like Driving schools, why are they still using ice cars. Can the government support these companies / individuals to use the future technology? Why are we allowing people to learn and spend thousands on old complicated dirty technology? Rant over...
Most people on passing their driving test get bought an old £2000 car as their first car. As of now almost all these have manual gearbox's. In 5 - 10 years time this will change as apart from EVs lots of new cars are hybrid.
Absolutely excellent explanation of the challenges. Please could you explore what is being done to build grid capacity, including re-conductoring (adding higher capacity cables to existing pylons)?
Higher capacity cables? Do you understand nothing of transmission lines? Hint: Why not Google up how the grid works, as in transmission losses, transformers and transmission voltages. And power ... as in how you can transmit a lot of power through thin steel wires.
For me, this discussion exposes two fundamental flaws, which need to be addressed. Firstly, how renewable energy generation projects are funded by using market force economics, and secondly the assumption that the national grid baseload model is viable for the future. We need to look at systems which are fit for purpose to meet our future needs, not bodge the existing systems. Start afresh, make bold choices, Time is running out.
From what I understood I don't think so at that stage. The CFD just provides financial stability for the wind farm operators. Fossil fuel generators have already built their equipment so the price is at the low point in their life cycle. I was very surprised to hear a plan to build new methane (gas) power stations as they would face high fuel costs and high capital costs.
@@rogerstarkey5390 personal opinion. If you take the greed out of the equation. Government should invest for the future where private companies insist on immediate return. Giving private oil companies new licences in the North Sea gives no security of supply and doesn’t help with cost when they sell to the highest bidder. As for the new gas stations, we had hundreds of years of supply when burning it in home boilers at 90% efficiency . Giving the go ahead to burn it in power stations at less than 50% efficiency was madness. It’s like they know the end of the world is coming so why bother.
The thing that annoys me the most. In Australia you can pay to have 100% renewable power. To me this should mean that you get your power for the price of the renewable but we do not. Its like the UK where it is dictated by the higest price electricity. :(
It really astounds me that when talking about renewable energy it is assumed that wind turbines are top of the list then solar, but nobody talks about other ways of generating power, eg tidal, wave power, heat recovery from water/ sea, hydro systems (Aren’t SSE building a new hydro system). What is happening with these technologies and why are they not figuring in the discussion about renewable investment.
The problem is that these technologies are lagging in terms of cost per MWh. At this time, only solar and wind are competitive with oil, gas and coal. As a result, only solar and wind are scaled to significant extents. There are many projects for other technologies, but until the total cost (including operation, maintenance and decommissioning) per MWh is below oil gas an coal, they won't justify private investment.
Baseload is not "generation", baseload is a way to solve the problem that coal and nuclear plants have in that they "need" a constant load and sales of units because they are expensive to build and not flexible in their output. We use these inflexible generators to supply the minimum level of power. We do not "need" baseload generation, we "need" to match supply and demand, or balance the grid. Baseload is becoming less relevant with Gas CCGT and renewables replacing coal, but we need to keep an eye on it so that we limit Nuclear investment. Gas CCGT will be replaced with batteries and more transmission capacity. Green Hydrogen is not a suitable way to store energy, its not efficient. You can use green Hydrogen to chemically refine iron in steel making, but its not useful for the thermal energy needed.
I agree . I keep saying, Hydrogen, from *any* source, produced by *any* method, use in *any* system, is *not green*. . Why? Because, as you say, it's "Inefficient". . The system provides ±30% return on input (if the gas stored is used to produce electricity by fuel cell.... Even less(?) If burned to make steam for generation). . Its use means that we must either *increase* the new green (wind?) sources to compensate, *or* make up the difference with continued fossil fuel generation.... . Since we don't have a 100% green grid, Hydrogen *DOES* result in Fossil Fuel generation remaining which would otherwise be gone. . Hydrogen results in a grid more polluting than it would otherwise be. . Hydrogen is DIRTY, not "green"
@@crispynoges That only applies if you have already invested in Hydrogen plant. If you have money to invest you can build batteries or Hydrogen plant. If you invest in Hydrogen plant you will be competing with batteries for that excess power. The batteries will make more money and pay their investment back faster. This is the nonsense of Hydrogen Justification, it always has to assume that Hydrogen is the only way to store energy.
You can see Condensed Matter materialisation of holographic nucleation as temporal thermodynamical energy storage by sync-duration superposition at Singularity-point relative-timing positioning. Industrial processes require Electrical and Heat Batteries to buffer the power reciprocation-recirculation potential condensation modulation superposition-quantization. This is such an excellent Teaching presentation, some proven to be genuine.. reformed Day Traders, could help as Teaching Assistants.
@@showme360 😂😂😂😂😂 And that is you. That excellent explanation is probably one, if not the best explanation on the internet today. Sagely seminal, without a shadow of a doubt.
As a solar & home battery user, solar provides around 20% of my usage 2 months of the year and allows me to export enough energy to fully support 3 to 4 other, similar sized homes for about 3 months of the year. So solar goes a long way in that direction, but not all.
@@GieZatRedLight Only 10'000 times of what we consume??? What about next year when we all have bigger fridges? It's just going to get too close for confort, we had best build more coal burning power plants.
On its own No, but Solar + Wind and local battery storage will take a big chunk out. There will still be periods when there is high demand with low supply from renewables.
I am all for praising when we are doing well, but just like during the COVID crisis. Politicians, and this guest here, tend to put too much emphasis on the rate at which we are doing things compared to mainland Europe, instead of mentioning what really matters: the current state of things. Yes, we have decarbonised rapidly because we were mainly on coal and gas. However, at the moment, the carbon intensity of the UK grid is 1.4-5 times higher than Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, France, Austria, Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia, Danemark. I am not even including Nordic countries… Similarly, we heard so many times “we are deploying COVID vaccines faster than anywhere else in Europe”, while a lot of populated European countries fully vaccinated a higher proportion of their population way before the UK… State matters more than rate. And China knows this…
I know ana explained about why we pay rhe gas generation price but that doesn't mean it's fair to the consumer, maybe the price should be capped somewhere between the renewable price and the gas price to be fair to the consumer, the model they continue to use is just ensuring maximum profits for the already super rich.
I'm pretty sure that she was talking about the spot price in energy markets. Every time step (say 15 minutes), for each region, a price and volume is determine based on offer and demand. This price can vary tremendously based on imbalance (sometimes going negative). A contract for difference (CFD that Ana keeps mentioning) helps any wind turbine owner to sell energy on the market (which is needed to keep the market and grid stable), but to also give predictability to the business plan, by saying: it doesn't matter what the market price is, you'll always get 50 GBP/MWh (so if you earn more, give the difference to the govt, if you earn less, the govt gives you the difference). As a result, CFD guarantees a fixed price to the wind farm owner, but the participation in the energy market means that enough energy goes into the grid. Ok, now going back to your question. We pay gas prices at any time that at least a gas turbine is switched on (and this is not every hour of the year, only when demand is higher than what renewables and nuclear can provide). Why in that case pay renewables a higher price than it's normal low price? It's to make the market work. The price is the same for everyone, during each time step of 15 minutes. There is some debate about this, but it is sure that it is a functioning market mechanism.
If you are using green hydrogen for long term storage to cope with windless winter days, as is the National Grid's plans, then you need gas turbines that can burn hydrogen. The recent announcement helps there as they are saying the new plants must be capable of being converted to hydrogen. Converting old natural gas plants to hydrogen isn't straight forward as hydrogen attacks some metals.
No, Hydrogen isn't combusted (burnt) like methane (gas). It's fed into a fuel cell which combines it with Oxygen from the air creating water vapor and releasing electrical energy.
Electrolysis of hydrogen is very inefficient way to produce it, oil produce hydrogen is even worse, and then you have to pipe it, and store it, and hydrogen love to leak out, even through steel. So I think using hydrogen to replace Gas is a big costly mistake.
Steel production still needs a reduction process to extract iron, that process requires heat and a reducing agent to pull the oxygen from the ore, leaving the pure iron behind. At present, we burn coked coal and limestone, which creates the heat and provides the reduction reaction. The proposed methods are using electric furnaces to provide the heat and hydrogen gas to act as the reduction agent. So you're part right, steel production can be electrified, Hydrogen is part of that process. And if the electrical power and the hydrogen are produced from renewables a clean steel process is possible, but we need to over build renewables sufficient to supply the electrical power to replace the coal and the Hydrogen for reduction.
Our governments have huge investments in a lot of these energy brokerages. They're not going to reduce the cost of energy if it means that their private investments are also significantly reduced.
Huge danger is the vast amount of investment in Oil & Gas that can become stranded assets! This "lost capital will diminish what could be available for renewable energy and transmissions!! Battery storage at the Sub Station level could mean local grids only pay the minimal overnight rate??
The trouble with me is that I have studied the idea of a NON monetary, Resource based economic system and now ALL the monetary system financial ideas just sound kinda stupid to me, no matter how clever or how much sense they make if you are ONLY thinking in terms of a monetary system. Once you start looking at the monetary system with a critical eye from outside the box it just seems completely crazy to run our world with such a useless system and certainly no wonder we have so many problems we never manage to solve.
Not yet. Building renewables and storage have most of their costs up-front. But investing in renewables now will bring lower prices in the future (maybe 2-5 years).
What an articulate woman. That kind of fluency when it's not even your mother tongue is remarkable. And what a fascinating accent. At times it sounds as if she learned English somewhere in the west of Ireland.
Home batteries 10kWh, But EVs 100kWh. And EVs battery management extends battery life by decades. This is the killer feature. The selfplug-in V2G is also the killer feature. 3 killer features. 1, Battery management with liquid temperature control. 2, Selfplug-in. 3, V2G. Hang onto your hat. A cheap old technology time as the old is replaced and rejected.
Tony Seba? Seriously? You seemed to be typing sense the other day. I was beginning to believe you had seen the light, evidently not. Would suggest you avoid these self proclaimed experts. Any questions in future then ask me straight away! I'm the only "expert" you need to concern yourself with. He typed, modestly.
@@t1n4444 He's not "self proclaimed" He's an expert in his field (Lecturing at MIT suggests that?) Who saw a pattern, publicised it, and has been proven correct. . Not sure to which post you refer (probably re dirty hydrogen?) but my "seeing the light" (or rather *focussing* that light) is in no small part due to Mr Seba. . You obviously didn't understand.
Imogen's tenure on this podcast series has been excellent, with a real intent to learn and update/ challenge her own knowledge and opinions. She doesn't interrupt guests, either!
Delightful for sure
I just opened up the comments to say... pretty much what you've said. Absolutely!
I am am avid listener to the Fully Charged and Everything Electric podcasts and for me, this is the best one yet! In brief, I would put my view down to 3 reasons: 1) The topic which is fundamental, highly complex but essential to understand, 2) the Guest Anna who is so well informed and sees & can explain so eloquently the bigger picture, and 3) the presenter Imogen who has clearly prepared well prior to the podcast, has the ability to understand, analyse and clarify the responses and can consequently ask meaningful questions in return to get the most out of her guest, (all things that were perhaps lacking in the past with our beloved Robert)? Brilliant and this is taking your podcasts to new heights ….. but can you keep the bar so high?
Imogen, I really love your style of interviewing and how prepared you are with follow-ups and tangent thoughts as well as being cognisant of possible bias and limited knowledge. If only all who use social media would bring this toolkit, we'd be a bit wiser and a little less stressed
Outstanding episode, thank you. Could I possibly suggest a moderated discussion between Ana and the lady on Quentin's recent podcast who was from the national grid. The reason I suggest that is that there appear to be diametrically opposed views... Ana was clear that the grid is a major chokepoint, Quentin's guest was equally clear that the grid has capacity. I appreciate the answer is somewhere between those two extremes but this is a prime example where drilling in to the nuances is required or whichever podcast you watched is accepted as an absolute answer.
Absolutely. If all is fine at the Grid, why the 10-year waiting lists for connections? This bottleneck, or potential bottleneck, has been known about for a long time. If the National Grid has been beavering away to add additional capacity to match the increased rate of production, then bravo. But I have to say I'm sceptical.
If course the grid has capacity, after all a decade or more ago the total demand was much higher.
However the grid is the high voltage transmission network. Where the grid lacks is the connection to renewable generators located far from the grid itself (contrary to accepted electrical engineering principle that supply and demand should be as close as possible) Overall reliable generation capacity has fallen and the local area (Low voltage network) will struggle with the increase in evs and heat pumps, it's not designed or sized for that continued high demand.
@@iareid8255Ok the increased range of generation facilities. Which is an issue that has been known about for a long time, I remember reading how the grid would need upgrading owing to the dispersed nature of renewables 15 or 20 years ago. Is not providing that connectivity the responsibility of National Grid?
Thank you for your informed reply to this question. How large a problem will it be to upgrade the local area networks?@@iareid8255
Pat,
probably although I don't know for certain. Building extra transmission lines cannot be done quickly but the real point is that following the renewabloe spath is detrimental to teh economic and stable opertaion of teh grid.
Renewables are cheap is false and ideally none would be connected to the grid.
One of the best interviews on this channel so far, an amazing amount of information.. thanks.
Great podcast, well done Imogen and Ana, great questions, very good explanations and a joy to listen to. I work for a renewable energy development company and Ana's message is completely in line with what we hear from the industry. We need to force our governments to do better, to work quicker by voting for parties that will genuinely do put the right policies in place. If we don't move fast enough, the cost to all of is us is massive. The impact of extreme climate events is already running in the billions and that is set to increase as the temperature average creeps up. The impact on health, in particular respiratory health, from hydrocarbons is massive, with a massive cost to our healthcare systems but to the day to day lives of the people who live with it, both directly and indirectly. The investments we need in renewable development is massive, the cost of doing it too slow is much higher, that is now abundantly clear.
That was a fascinating discussion. Unfortunately my little brain was unable to process all the information so I still don't understand it fully. I will watch again, maybe twice, until I get a better grip on it. Thanks for bringing this challenging topic to my attention.
Same hear.
Having short term governments work towards long term solutions has always been difficult. Hopefully we can get politicians able to think outside of the media misinformation and lobbyists propaganda to make a better future.
Yes, one of the few benefits of a dictatorship like the CCP is that they're not living in a four yearly cycle between stops on the gravy train like western governments do.
We have the horrendous lurches blue to red and back. The whole system is broken. It's tragic.
As always, consumer preference will render government affairs irrelevant. When did any government ever mandate that every adult should have a smartphone, or a TV, or a kettle?
Let's stop being distracted by government policy and stop using it as an excuse not to do what we want to achieve.
yep we obviously need a dictator, question is communism or a Austrian Artist who loved dogs ?
@@ndudman8other dog loving dictators are available I'm sure.
If they thought the votes would change anything we wouldn't get one.
Imogen, your honesty and ability to confess those parts of your knowledge in which you declare ignorance as well as, at the same time, demonstrating your ability to decode very complex subject matter for listeners like me, is invaluable in enabling greater understanding of the reality of problem solving, which engages with a combination of logistics, economics, politics and perhaps most importantly, helping everyone who cares to listen and engage in the debate learn how to cope with the huge challenge of the transition. Thank you for being so cheerful and engaging in the way in which you present this subject. Thanks too for Ana in giving us her time. You are top gals (the female equivalent of top blokes. 👍🏻🙏
Liked this podcast best of the ones you've done Imogen as you asked a lot of important questions to increase our knowledge and very much helped by a very informed straight talking guest in Ana.
It would be great to have her back on every few months to give an update/discussion
on something that is so important to everyone, the cost of energy.
I’ve come back to this episode a few months later as Ana was such a great knowledgable guest & Imogen asked all the right questions!
I always thought it was outrageous that gas set the price of electricity but the marginal pricing explanation made sense.
Great interview ladies! Wishing UK and the whole world a rapid and smooth transition to high insulation, high efficiency and renewably powered electricity! Here in Canada I have helped build onshore wind farms for 13 years 🇨🇦. If I ever get bored I coming to UK to install offshore.
I will be honest, most of that was way over my head, but thank you for not compromising in your persuit of knowledge. I will come back in a week or so and see if I get anymore through my thick skull.
This is like everything, far more complex when you look under the surface. Imogen was great accepting that we can all still learn and look at things differently. Thank you
Thanks Imogene for asking the questions, a lot of us do have! And thanks to Anna for answering these questions in an easy to understand way! -- the only thing I still don't get is, why the most expensive energy form is still allowed to dictate the price. The explanation Anna gave left me actually more puzzled. We all agree, that we need to have some form of energy coverage for the moments that renewables are not producing. But why does it have to determine the price of all energy consumed? Why not have a weighted average? I do have a time of use tariff and the average actually average works out at approximately 0.07€/kWh or including tax and other costs 0.25€/kWh, while peak price (typically just an hour per day) are 0.12€-0.16€/kWh (+0.18€/kWh fixed) so a lot of consumers are paying most of the time at least 5cts/kWh too much. This is quite an incentive for utilities to make sure they "have to" switch on the gas turbine...
Thank you, terrific podcast with two very intelligent women. I'm exhausted mentally from just listening to it. I'm old enough to remember when energy generation was nationised and we didn't need these complicated financial structures. The current system is gamed against renewables and our corrupt government are in the pay of the oil and gas industries. The future needs to be gamed towards the consumer.
This was an outstanding and very educational podcast 👏🏻 Imogen - you don't need to keep apologising for your questions! My questions would have been much more simplistic, and anyway, your questions generated some amazing and insightful answers from Ana. As others have said, I love how prepared you were for chairing this interview, fantastic work! 😊
Thanks for a great discussion. So much to unpack. For me it highlights the importance of the political and economic process rather than perhaps the technology which we tend to get excited about. It greaves me greatly that we still stop turbines turning because we are choosing to burn gas! What a waste. I think a previous episode that Robert did with a chap in the Orkneys highlighted the stupidity of the years it has taken to get a better cable to manage the load to the mainland.
Please politicians, we must work harder to sort these issues out. Take them out of short term party goals and promises. Listen to the people. We want this to happen.
Very informative episode, thanks Imogen and the Fully Charged Podcast team! I had a fantastic time at Everything Electric on Friday, can’t wait to see you all in Farnborough!
Imogen - fantastic job. Please give us more. You have helped to start my understanding journey into what is clearly a complex issue
Great episode. How refreshing to hear two very intelligent erudite women in conversation. In fact your guest is so bright and quick thinking and I am hampered by chronic illness which impairs my ability to process quickly, I actually had to slow down the video while she was speaking to be able to take in all the important detail she was imparting. I'm so glad I was recently shown this facility to use for singing practice with choral music videos, who knew it would be so valuable for FCS podcasts?!😂
Nevertheless I plan on re-watching this excellent, nuanced piece, many thanks Imogen and guest, I'm sorry I have memory impairment too and the name of your guest escapes me temporarily. 🤯👍
When you listen to the IPCC and the IEA, it is clear that most countries and the UK in particular, need to improve and expand their grid to meet net zero targets. When you listen to renewable energy generators and investors, they say that their projects are currently blocked at the connection stage. When you listen to the UK government you hear “we are doing everything in our power to do just that” 😅 When you listen to National Grid and more local DNOs/DSOs they say: “we are first and foremost going to work towards net zero by boosting flexibility… and only reinforce the network or build more when absolutely necessary”.
It just shows you that one should not privatise something as important as the maintenance and the deployment of the grid, simply because corporate interests in short term revenues and dividends are at odds with public interest.
(For those who don’t know National Grid is not a national asset 😂)
What an excellent interview. Thank you.
Great Points, particularly how private home installation of solar is offsetting/ circumventing Government's incompetency in investing in renewables.
Excellent episode -- learned a lot.
Hmm ... learned a lot?
How so? Never forget there are other outfits who may whistle a different tune or just another "arrangement" as it were.
This guest introduced the notion of "green hydrogen" into the argument which then prompted criticism from those posters who believe they knew "better". Me for one backing green hydrogen.
Imogen made not a single comment pertaining to "green hydrogen" in response despite the guest repeating herself perhaps eight or nine times.
Does this imply that any "positive" mention of green hydrogen on this platform is 'forbidden"?
So, when you assert you have "learned stuff" what did you learn?
If you wish to be informed then plenty of other "energy platforms" which might be biased towards another technology you can peruse to gain a balanced insight.
What was it Ridley Scott said recently? 'Get a life!' I read lots of different sources and don't agree with everything on any one of them.
But I still learnt a lot from this discussion, whether or not you like everything said.@@t1n4444
@@t1n4444 Green hydrogen is one possible future long term storage solution, but there are other possibilities as well. I think the guest, Ann I believe, was just stating that some sort of energy storage system could be used to provide extra capacity.
What a pack of quality information! 👍
Fantastic podcast! Thank you very much.
Brilliant episode. Please being us more like this to help inform us all about the possibility of a bright future if we can only get our politicians to take this seriously and to act consistently....
The politicos take this fossil fuel stuff very seriously indeed.
You might consider that many a share portfolio has a fair few holdings in fossil fuels.
You shouldn't need me to explain what an abrupt shutdown of fossil fuel use would do to investments.
Absolutely fantastic talk again, keep the information coming 👍🏻
Awesome discussion! Thanks! I'll listen to it again to help get my head around it.
Another great podcast, many thanks.
This is so inspirational, I think this discussion really helps tackle through the weeds or our path to net zero. With the obvious need to build out the grid network and a huge new renewable zero carbon buffer such as BESS or even the dreaded stored green hydrogen?! Or even multiple other novel systems.
I’m intrigued to know if contract for difference will have a true benefit for enhancing the free market of renewable energy supply and decoupling our reliance on fossil fuels.
Excellent video , good job. This team seem to cover everything in the range of videos they make.
Great episode. Thank you.
My main takeaway is that I should finally get a home storage battery, thereby investing in renewable technology, fully leverage my solar and ev tariff and in doing so, sidestep gas pegged marginal electricity pricing.
Imogen great episode, love the way you present podcast learning with us😊❤
All good stuff as usual. However I was racking my brains trying to find any announcement by the government today regarding the building of new gas generation. After some research I found that this was in the news on 12 March ( I remember it now). I can only conclude that this Podcast was recorded on the same day. Why wasn't it uploaded at the time when it was more relevant?
You found a valuable part of the transition right there.
Great interview ❤
Great episode! Very insightful
We owners at Ripple are being asked to vote the CFDs and most people I have seen and read are saying NO. But now that I understand the dynamics of the system I am leaning to say Yes. But on the otherhand, do I Trust the Government currently in power on that threshold NO.
The problem of wind and solar, being seen as a commdity is that it is dictated by nature and her ability to stop or slow production. At no point in this conversation has Tidal energy been mentioned, which I have read can cover 20% of this countries energy needs, our base level, which is a predictable, and offers more guarantees than any other renewable. But we are not mentioning this WHY? At this point I should point out I am 2 thirds of the way through the video. The cost of this is likely to significantly lower compare to Nuclear by a long margin.
Storage in my view should be focused on home storage for ALL. Every house in the UK should have a enough storage for one day energy needs, as a figure in the air analogy. Plus some of that could include V2H and V2G as part of that solution. There are 24.8 million households in England and Wales, if just 10% of those had V2G and another 10% had already bought into the home battery market. That would leave 19.8 million homes that need a battery. New builds would have to come with a solar battery system as standard. That could provide 200GW of available storage. This could also be applied to businesses. Couple this with storage at the wind farms, and solar farms that could cover a days usage would help with the fluctuation of nature and her part play in this brave new world we all want to see and desire.
Green hydrogen is so inefficient to use as storage, battery would be way more efficient and offer better security if made accessible to the grid operators by way of control through the internet, or through the smart meter supplied by the owners energy suppliers. Steel making is no more in this country.
You don't even need the home battery.
.
Just 1 400W panel would provide 50% + of the daytime capacity for most homes.
Just enough to keep things ticking over most of the time.
Hmm ... your post was utter tripe from when you started droning on about individual home energy storage and anti hydrogen nonsense.
In fact it's very likely you're still at school.
Suggest you start doing some research on the topics you mentioned prior to posting.
@@rogerstarkey5390
More tripe.
Any chance of some math to support this 400W nonsense of yours.
You neglected to include the need for "a battery" pack.
Why?
Plus you appear not to have explained some earlier remarks of yours.
Why?
Kindly do so now.
Thanks. We won't need gas baseload, as renewables and storage prices continue to drop exponentially, so you could build 150-200% power capacity compared to today, and still have 100% capacity on days with low renewables production.
I have been enjoyed, so thank you for delivering
Great information 🇨🇦
Excellent information and a great way to spread knowledge. I vote for a long slog to get tidal to replace gas.
Yes, isn't it amazing how little recognition there is for the perpetual, predictable energy tidal stream can provide, particularly for the UK, whose west coast hosts the 2nd largest tidal range on the planet!
Not to mention the windiest place in the European geographic region.
We are incredibly blessed with natural resource.
Yes there is enough tidal around this country to cover its base load. Efficient, dependable, reiable, and much cheaper that nuclear.
Excellent interview 👏 Would love to hear more discussion on potential implications of v2g
Definitely be interested in this, this could stop the need for new gas plants, even take one off line if there were enough cars connected to the grid. Why not make V2G mandatory. Wouldn't mind making a few 💰 and supporting the grid. Also wouldn't mind hearing about really deep geothermal, for potentially taking over powering nuclear and coal powered turbines, might need less wind turbines onshore.
Imogen is the best. I'm amazed at her performance on this episode.
I worked in wind at a manufacturer (Vestas) as a sales person with technical and financial background. I'd love to add some color and an additional perspective if given the chance!
Why not launch your own platform then?
I'd like to see more education on how widespread use of solar with home batteries, or privately owned EVs, with 2-way charging, would go a long way to taking the pressure off the grid.
An EV can typically hold 3 ~7 days worth energy for a typical 3/4 bedroom home, as a rough guide.
The more people home-generate & store energy (distributed), the less energy needs to be transmitted across the grid.
Imogen please do a deep dive into permitting process for new transmission lines and Sub-Stations. It’s seems like a Global-Local problem. All national governments seem to be challenged by this issue, all being blocked by local authorities, no matter what country they are in.
It would be interesting to know what the local authorities are hearing, what or why are they not approving projects. And also if any permits were successful why. And why do they take so long? How can they move faster
I am wondering what difference is being made by home solar installations. Over the last two years my roof has generated 11.6mWh and I have read that there are between 10000 and 20000 (a bit vague) installations a year at the moment. Provided they all have batteries it must make a difference, for a start you won't be overloading the local grid when the sun is shining and you won't be drawing power when there is a shortage. Incidentally, because I have a car I am able to charge my pylon batteries very cheaply over night in the winter.
Google,
not quite so simple.
solar produces most power when demand is lower, nothing when demand is at the peak contrary to your view.
The greater the amount of locally connected solar the bigger the adverse grid reaction when clouds cover the sky. Solar is an uncontrollable source of generation but the grid must be finely controlled with regard to supply and demand on an instantaneous basis.
It can be so bad in places like Australia with high sun cover and large domestic solar installations that the grid operator has had to trip solar installations from the system by increasing system voltage above solar controller limit. It is that disruptive.
@@iareid8255 I did mention the need for batteries.
@@iareid8255surely that's the point of having battery storage, either in the home or locally before it goes onto the grid?
Jude,
that is up to individual home owners if they wish to add batteries and yes that could assist the grid in avery small way.
Grid connected batteries do not and cannot cover intermittency, their purpose is frequency support, necessary in no small part because of the intermittent nature of renewable generation.
Renewables are neither equal to or a replacement for conventional generation.
@@iareid8255I would be interested to know why you assert that grid connected batteries cannot cover intermittency. Surely if they are sized correctly for local need just as one would size household batteries for ones own requirements they should be able to provide power when and where it's needed? I am no expert and perhaps you are so if you could elucidate for me I would be most interested to understand. Bear in mind I am unable to differentiate between the two phrases "intermittency" and "frequency support".
As important as all the other issues discussed were, my ears pricked up on grid capacity and how that has to shift somewhat. My question is regarding the role of:
1. grid-scale storage at or close to the site of renewable generation, and
2. decentralised/distributed small-scale renewable generation (e.g. EV charging stations or similar, using solar and/or a wind turbine or both with batteries to reduce their grid demand and also support the grid in periods of peak demand), in reducing the extent of grid capacity upgrades.
Great interview
Brilliant episode!
A brilliant conversation between two extremely bright young women. There’s hope for us yet!
Not sure I understood a lot of this. Sounds like prices could go up or down and marginal pricing is fine and normal. There was also some stuff about improving the infrastructure ???
The big question that this podcast sought to address was, now that we have loads of cheap renewables why aren't customers seeing the benefit? The podcast then explained that most renewables are on CfD which effectively decouples renewables from gas contracts. So my question is, if we have loads of cheap renewables which are mostly on CfD contracts (which decouples them from gas prices) why aren't we seeing the benefit?
There are battery solutions to those storage issues. Logistics companies like Amazon can figure out the best methods to deliver goods quickly. Why can't grid operators do the same? Instead of giving fuel allowances, give every home a battery. Homes are forced to have septic tanks, so why not make sure every new home has a battery big enough to support 1 week of energy needs.
I did watch it all, but the TLDW version is generate your own power to get away from these price fluctuations and being held to gas prices.
In terms of keeping older gas fired electricity power stations, there are several of these in North Lincolnshire that are on standby but not actually generating electricity ...
Given that we already have older but functional gas power stations, why would we need to build new ones?
I know that sounds an obvious question, but I have not ever heard it asked.
In terms of renewables [wind, tidal, solar, ... in the main], would it be fair to say that the real answer is to have built-in over capacity and a sink load so as to absorb the extra power? By this I mean splitting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen by electrolysis, which then could be used as a pure and environmentally friendly fuel buffer. ...
Best wishes from George in Herefordshire.
Quite so.
I note we see the "hydrogen" word typed more often.
Has this platform undergone a Damascene Conversion?
Come on Robert, tell us you have left behind your battery hugger amigos, seen the pale blue light and smelled the hydrogen.
Some might say "not before time".
I know I do.
@@t1n4444there is an important difference between using hydrogen as a storage medium i.e. using renewables to produce hydrogen which is later used to generate electricity later and using hydrogen as a fuel I.e. heating , transport.
The fossil fuel lobby are keen to confuse the two and extend the hydrogen (its green init) production from fossil fuels.
The ee team have been very good at explaining this because using hydrogen as fuel is very very energy inefficient. For example a hydrogen grid for home heating.
@@ambassadorfromreality1125
Yet we are seeing pure hydrogen being used for heating in pilot schemes in Fife, Scotland.
Hydrogen had been used for heating in the form of the pre 1967 "town gas".
Town gas consisted of 49% hydrogen, 34% methane and carbon monoxide (and yes CO is flammable).
Post 1967 UK went over to North Sea gas.
Ref hydrogen gas in homes, it may be Grant Shapps has been led astray by those with interests elsewhere?
The idea is to "decarbonise" our atmosphere.
Cost doesn't really come into it if we factor in rebuilding our "habitation" above the 200ft contour.
Google will help find chapter and verse on the topic.
@@ambassadorfromreality1125 Hydrogen is going to be part of the solution, particularly in balancing renewable production with peak demands on the grid.
Using Hydrogen in vehicular transport is presently pretty hopeless, but perhaps the scientific research will come up with something better.
One thing is for certain, making Hydrogen from fossil fuels is utter madness, and must be called out each time the fossil fuel enterprises try to push it!
Best wishes from George
I think we are better off investing the money in renewable energy, rather than newer power plants.
The older power plants will be reducing their negative effects by simply running less often, right up to the point we can knock the things down. I just can't see it being energy efficient to build new plants that will also be destined to be knocked down.
I would have thought the solar and wind farms, and batteries that can built at the cost of a new power plant, would be far more effective than the difference between the less effective old and more effective new power plants.
When the price on the wholesale market is well above the CFD guaranteed price, does /all/ of the surplus go back to this contracting government corporation? If the CFD price is 80/MWh and the price falls to 70 the producer collects 10/MWh, but if the price goes up to 150 like it might, does all of the 70 additional have to be repaid or do they keep some fraction of that?
It seems slightly unfair to not have the generator keep some of the value of production at those times.
Thanks. Really informative, just shows that green Power is the future
Obviously!
But green as in battery technology or in fuel cell technology?
Or simply renewables technology and in what application?
Imogen, you certainly have an excellent mind, I wish you well for the future.
It's a transition. 30 years ago there was the start of the transition from coal to gas, and similar concerns regarding marginal pricing were expressed. This will be a similar process, and mass adoprion of EV's, with car to load facility, and next generation smart metering, will be part of the part of the solution for delivering a large volume of demand side response which currently isn't available. Installed renewable capacity equal to max demand + demand side response and storage, will evolve, but it has to be supported by financial incentives such as capacity market or marginal pricing. Regarding the "new gas stations", these won't be base load, they'll probably be short term response open cycle units, necessary to maintain stability during transition.
Utter nonsense.
Battery EVs are no longer the vehicle that people aspire to.
You might have noticed had you been keeping up with the automotive press and MSM.
@@t1n4444 time will tell.
An excellent episode - I particularly valued the dive into marginal pricing of gas in the electricity market. Imogen does a great job getting her head around the issues with excellent interview technique. 👏👏
I live on the coast in the Scottish Borders, just up the road is the Drone Hill Wind Farm and off shore is the Near na Gaothe wind farm which stretches from Eyemouth up to Dundee over the Firth of Forth. It is designed to generate 450 megawatts and was supposed to open in 2023 but has been delayed due to 'supply chain issues'. The power comes onshore near the old Torness Nuclear power station. I worked in the nuclear industry for 25 years. Renewable energy seems chaotic with shareholders selling out until virtual monopolies exist...
I have feedback on the Everything Electric show at Excel and how to make the next one better for punters - where should I send it?
The bin?
Just a tad presumptuous of you ...
Don't you suppose Robert et al can do their own wash up meeting?
Besides next year we're most likely to see hydrogen fuel cell vehicles now we know for certain battery EVs are not the first choice for car buyers in UK.
In fact we might see less of a sales push of said battery EVs in UK on the grounds very few people want them these days.
For them as are inclined to disagree suggest you research for yourself on the state of the UK market.
Why not look at residuals, cost of insurance, re-charging issues, self igniting batteries first and then then go from there.
We've seen the ULEZ restrictions ... how long before we see weight restrictions applied to suburban residential roads and the older multistorey car parks.
Even if the load on the concrete structure isn't that great then who's to say outfits like NCP will be happy to take the risk?
If there were cracks found then the local authorities might be obliged "to do something about it" as in shut down the structures and introduce "park and ride" across the nation?
Putting a levy on the council tax so as to persuade people to use free public transport might actually work.
Trying to park in a non-existent multistory carpark might be one way of getting private cars out of cities.
Let's go for that.
@@t1n4444since you asked so nicely, here’s my feedback:
I’m looking to buy my first car (I’m 50, moving out of london where I’ve never needed one) - obviously I want to buy a BEV.
Did two test drives, with BYD Dolphin and Ionic 5, but in both cases the sales person hadn’t had full training on the car so they couldn’t help me adjust cruise control, Lane following etc. both cars were set up badly with very jerky start/stop and I managed to get them much smoother but with no help.
There were no cars or manufacturers there in the sub-30k range, eg Citroen C3 - please encourage them to be there next time - I was looking to purchase at the show if I’d liked it.
Brought my parents who came in very sceptical about BEV, Solar and heat pumps but left buzzing about how great they are and looking to upgrade from gas. However the theatre sessions were described by them as “doom mongering” and they left upset rather than knowing what they could do about it. I didn’t hear them, but maybe a better mix of dose-of-reality and what-you-can-do?
Wanted to get parents to switch to BEV but test drives limited to under 70 years old, so I couldn’t get them in one to show them how easy they are to drive. Maybe put pressure on exhibitors to allow all ages to test drive? Even if insurers will only allow them to drive around the private land?
Sometimes it seems that the marketisation mechanisms have become more important than the actual supply of services. Why should this be?
Considering all the comments, I wish someone (or even I given my decade of experience in the field) could give a small lecture on:
- wind energy
- how a wind project is valued
- how incentives have been given by governments historically
- why does the government offer the current incentives (CFDs and auctions)
- how the energy market works
- how is the price set (and why wind is paid the same as gas)
Pretty sure many of those topics were covered in this excellent podcast...🤔
Very good discussion, although not ideal for my 4pm brain. I am not an energy economist. Both Ana and Imogen mention base load at around 34 minutes. I thought this was an old term used for the amount of load that a coal fired power station needed to keep it chugging along, which is quite different to having enough generation at any moment in time to meet demand spikes when maybe the wind isn't blowing or to provide grid services that manage the quality of the electricity, such as voltage regulation and frequency response which can be provided through other means like grid forming inverters. Maybe let's not use "base load" because that's the terminology used by the fossil guys to justify burning stuff for as long as possible. It's a very minor point in the discussion, I just find it to be a loaded term. Carry on 😊, you guys are doing a great job with these deep dives 👍.
yes , great work by Imogen. Use of the term base was a little confusing for me too.
Really enjoyed your talk, Saturday 30th March Everything Electric London ExCel
Looking forward to Harrogate.
Turn this topic into a micro series of 12 minute videos that inform and explain the opportunities for governments and consumers?
The grid and electricity generation is a complicated business! Transition is complicated so the government must be driving the necessary changes and commit for next 25 years possibly longer. When a government can last 40 days 😀 how do you achieve that long term commitment? Ofgem recently increased the standing charge for electricity to recors high. So if like me you invested in solar and battery you just saw your bill increasing for this summer 😞. I won't use the grid much but will pay more for it. But I understand we need a strong grid. So many things to change! Like Driving schools, why are they still using ice cars. Can the government support these companies / individuals to use the future technology? Why are we allowing people to learn and spend thousands on old complicated dirty technology? Rant over...
Most people on passing their driving test get bought an old £2000 car as their first car. As of now almost all these have manual gearbox's. In 5 - 10 years time this will change as apart from EVs lots of new cars are hybrid.
It's obviously more complicated to drive a manual ICE car than an EV so that's the one people need to learn on.
Why then do we not buy oil in the same way as wind?
Absolutely excellent explanation of the challenges. Please could you explore what is being done to build grid capacity, including re-conductoring (adding higher capacity cables to existing pylons)?
Higher capacity cables?
Do you understand nothing of transmission lines?
Hint: Why not Google up how the grid works, as in transmission losses, transformers and transmission voltages.
And power ... as in how you can transmit a lot of power through thin steel wires.
For me, this discussion exposes two fundamental flaws, which need to be addressed. Firstly, how renewable energy generation projects are funded by using market force economics, and secondly the assumption that the national grid baseload model is viable for the future. We need to look at systems which are fit for purpose to meet our future needs, not bodge the existing systems. Start afresh, make bold choices, Time is running out.
17:13 Does cheap renewable energy subsidise more expensive forms of energy through the government minimum pricing scheme, cfd strike price.
From what I understood I don't think so at that stage. The CFD just provides financial stability for the wind farm operators.
Fossil fuel generators have already built their equipment so the price is at the low point in their life cycle.
I was very surprised to hear a plan to build new methane (gas) power stations as they would face high fuel costs and high capital costs.
Nationalise the lot!
Very informative. Talked on so many subjects 👍 Missed the biggest point that the majority of the public want the energy sector nationalised.
Where does that opinion originate?
@@rogerstarkey5390 personal opinion. If you take the greed out of the equation. Government should invest for the future where private companies insist on immediate return. Giving private oil companies new licences in the North Sea gives no security of supply and doesn’t help with cost when they sell to the highest bidder. As for the new gas stations, we had hundreds of years of supply when burning it in home boilers at 90% efficiency . Giving the go ahead to burn it in power stations at less than 50% efficiency was madness. It’s like they know the end of the world is coming so why bother.
The thing that annoys me the most. In Australia you can pay to have 100% renewable power. To me this should mean that you get your power for the price of the renewable but we do not. Its like the UK where it is dictated by the higest price electricity. :(
It really astounds me that when talking about renewable energy it is assumed that wind turbines are top of the list then solar, but nobody talks about other ways of generating power, eg tidal, wave power, heat recovery from water/ sea, hydro systems (Aren’t SSE building a new hydro system). What is happening with these technologies and why are they not figuring in the discussion about renewable investment.
The problem is that these technologies are lagging in terms of cost per MWh. At this time, only solar and wind are competitive with oil, gas and coal. As a result, only solar and wind are scaled to significant extents.
There are many projects for other technologies, but until the total cost (including operation, maintenance and decommissioning) per MWh is below oil gas an coal, they won't justify private investment.
Ana Musat for PM, NOW!
Baseload is not "generation", baseload is a way to solve the problem that coal and nuclear plants have in that they "need" a constant load and sales of units because they are expensive to build and not flexible in their output. We use these inflexible generators to supply the minimum level of power. We do not "need" baseload generation, we "need" to match supply and demand, or balance the grid. Baseload is becoming less relevant with Gas CCGT and renewables replacing coal, but we need to keep an eye on it so that we limit Nuclear investment. Gas CCGT will be replaced with batteries and more transmission capacity.
Green Hydrogen is not a suitable way to store energy, its not efficient. You can use green Hydrogen to chemically refine iron in steel making, but its not useful for the thermal energy needed.
I agree
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I keep saying, Hydrogen, from *any* source, produced by *any* method, use in *any* system, is *not green*.
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Why?
Because, as you say, it's "Inefficient".
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The system provides ±30% return on input (if the gas stored is used to produce electricity by fuel cell.... Even less(?) If burned to make steam for generation).
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Its use means that we must either *increase* the new green (wind?) sources to compensate, *or* make up the difference with continued fossil fuel generation....
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Since we don't have a 100% green grid, Hydrogen *DOES* result in Fossil Fuel generation remaining which would otherwise be gone.
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Hydrogen results in a grid more polluting than it would otherwise be.
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Hydrogen is DIRTY, not "green"
I think the point is that even if not efficient at times of excess wind it is better to make hydrogen than shut down the wind farm
@@crispynoges That only applies if you have already invested in Hydrogen plant. If you have money to invest you can build batteries or Hydrogen plant. If you invest in Hydrogen plant you will be competing with batteries for that excess power. The batteries will make more money and pay their investment back faster.
This is the nonsense of Hydrogen Justification, it always has to assume that Hydrogen is the only way to store energy.
You can see Condensed Matter materialisation of holographic nucleation as temporal thermodynamical energy storage by sync-duration superposition at Singularity-point relative-timing positioning.
Industrial processes require Electrical and Heat Batteries to buffer the power reciprocation-recirculation potential condensation modulation superposition-quantization.
This is such an excellent Teaching presentation, some proven to be genuine.. reformed Day Traders, could help as Teaching Assistants.
@davidwilkie9551
Yeah, that's exactly what I thought.
Clearly someone did not understand.
@@showme360
😂😂😂😂😂
And that is you.
That excellent explanation is probably one, if not the best explanation on the internet today.
Sagely seminal, without a shadow of a doubt.
If we put solar panels on every feasible roof in the UK do we solve energy crisis?
Indeed! Energi crisis is a political thing, the sun delivers almost 10000 times of what we consume - for free!
As a solar & home battery user, solar provides around 20% of my usage 2 months of the year and allows me to export enough energy to fully support 3 to 4 other, similar sized homes for about 3 months of the year.
So solar goes a long way in that direction, but not all.
@@GieZatRedLight Only 10'000 times of what we consume???
What about next year when we all have bigger fridges?
It's just going to get too close for confort, we had best build more coal burning power plants.
On its own No, but Solar + Wind and local battery storage will take a big chunk out. There will still be periods when there is high demand with low supply from renewables.
I am all for praising when we are doing well, but just like during the COVID crisis. Politicians, and this guest here, tend to put too much emphasis on the rate at which we are doing things compared to mainland Europe, instead of mentioning what really matters: the current state of things.
Yes, we have decarbonised rapidly because we were mainly on coal and gas. However, at the moment, the carbon intensity of the UK grid is 1.4-5 times higher than Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, France, Austria, Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia, Danemark. I am not even including Nordic countries…
Similarly, we heard so many times “we are deploying COVID vaccines faster than anywhere else in Europe”, while a lot of populated European countries fully vaccinated a higher proportion of their population way before the UK…
State matters more than rate. And China knows this…
All about industry not losing out, consumer gets ******. Heres an idea to accelerate renewables, set the gas price to renewable price.
I know ana explained about why we pay rhe gas generation price but that doesn't mean it's fair to the consumer, maybe the price should be capped somewhere between the renewable price and the gas price to be fair to the consumer, the model they continue to use is just ensuring maximum profits for the already super rich.
I'm pretty sure that she was talking about the spot price in energy markets. Every time step (say 15 minutes), for each region, a price and volume is determine based on offer and demand. This price can vary tremendously based on imbalance (sometimes going negative).
A contract for difference (CFD that Ana keeps mentioning) helps any wind turbine owner to sell energy on the market (which is needed to keep the market and grid stable), but to also give predictability to the business plan, by saying: it doesn't matter what the market price is, you'll always get 50 GBP/MWh (so if you earn more, give the difference to the govt, if you earn less, the govt gives you the difference).
As a result, CFD guarantees a fixed price to the wind farm owner, but the participation in the energy market means that enough energy goes into the grid.
Ok, now going back to your question.
We pay gas prices at any time that at least a gas turbine is switched on (and this is not every hour of the year, only when demand is higher than what renewables and nuclear can provide).
Why in that case pay renewables a higher price than it's normal low price? It's to make the market work. The price is the same for everyone, during each time step of 15 minutes.
There is some debate about this, but it is sure that it is a functioning market mechanism.
@@julienvm so the wind farm gets paid £50 pmwh for producing and supplying the grid then we pay £240 pmwh to the middle men... Seems fair!!!
If you are using green hydrogen for long term storage to cope with windless winter days, as is the National Grid's plans, then you need gas turbines that can burn hydrogen. The recent announcement helps there as they are saying the new plants must be capable of being converted to hydrogen. Converting old natural gas plants to hydrogen isn't straight forward as hydrogen attacks some metals.
No, Hydrogen isn't combusted (burnt) like methane (gas). It's fed into a fuel cell which combines it with Oxygen from the air creating water vapor and releasing electrical energy.
@@zen1647 Fuel cells don't currently scale to the 20MW-50MW of turbines
Hydrogen in any form is green washing.
It's DIRTY
@@zen1647 Wrong, go see JBC video on burning hydrogen in thier tractors!
Electrolysis of hydrogen is very inefficient way to produce it, oil produce hydrogen is even worse, and then you have to pipe it, and store it, and hydrogen love to leak out, even through steel. So I think using hydrogen to replace Gas is a big costly mistake.
I would love to hear a discussion based on Euan McTurks idea of splitting the energy market into fossil and non fossil and then prorata the price.
Interesting. In which category would nuclear fall?
@@julienvmruclips.net/video/ig-_WRd8GC0/видео.htmlsi=DEQ8CEZG2DVyLwbL
Primary steel production can be electrified. The issue is that hydrogen is at a more advanced stage in development.
Steel production still needs a reduction process to extract iron, that process requires heat and a reducing agent to pull the oxygen from the ore, leaving the pure iron behind.
At present, we burn coked coal and limestone, which creates the heat and provides the reduction reaction.
The proposed methods are using electric furnaces to provide the heat and hydrogen gas to act as the reduction agent.
So you're part right, steel production can be electrified, Hydrogen is part of that process.
And if the electrical power and the hydrogen are produced from renewables a clean steel process is possible, but we need to over build renewables sufficient to supply the electrical power to replace the coal and the Hydrogen for reduction.
@@BrianSmith-zs5wg
When you say "extract iron" perhaps you might elucidate?
Our governments have huge investments in a lot of these energy brokerages. They're not going to reduce the cost of energy if it means that their private investments are also significantly reduced.
Huge danger is the vast amount of investment in Oil & Gas that can become stranded assets! This "lost capital will diminish what could be available for renewable energy and transmissions!! Battery storage at the Sub Station level could mean local grids only pay the minimal overnight rate??
I wish I could have liked this twice, or thrice.
The trouble with me is that I have studied the idea of a NON monetary, Resource based economic system and now ALL the monetary system financial ideas just sound kinda stupid to me, no matter how clever or how much sense they make if you are ONLY thinking in terms of a monetary system. Once you start looking at the monetary system with a critical eye from outside the box it just seems completely crazy to run our world with such a useless system and certainly no wonder we have so many problems we never manage to solve.
Imogen, I need to know, heating in electric cars; same as ICE cars?
Yucky, chemical? Need to pay hundreds to have the heating serviced?
Or....
You mean "Heating" or "Air conditioning"?
but prices are not coming down
Not yet. Building renewables and storage have most of their costs up-front. But investing in renewables now will bring lower prices in the future (maybe 2-5 years).
@@zen1647
Only if we bin HYDROGEN.
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It's a fools errand
@@rogerstarkey5390Maybe- I'm less sure about hydrogen but definitely hopeful.
More nuclear included?
What an articulate woman. That kind of fluency when it's not even your mother tongue is remarkable. And what a fascinating accent. At times it sounds as if she learned English somewhere in the west of Ireland.
Ah I wondered what I was detecting in the lady's accent...she was so fluent I had to slow the video to take in all the details! 😅
Home batteries 10kWh,
But EVs 100kWh.
And EVs battery management extends battery life by decades.
This is the killer feature.
The selfplug-in V2G is also the killer feature.
3 killer features.
1, Battery management with liquid temperature control.
2, Selfplug-in.
3, V2G.
Hang onto your hat. A cheap old technology time as the old is replaced and rejected.
The last of the "all of the above".
Imogen
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Watch Tony Seba.
Tony Seba?
Seriously?
You seemed to be typing sense the other day. I was beginning to believe you had seen the light, evidently not.
Would suggest you avoid these self proclaimed experts.
Any questions in future then ask me straight away!
I'm the only "expert" you need to concern yourself with.
He typed, modestly.
@@t1n4444
He's not "self proclaimed"
He's an expert in his field (Lecturing at MIT suggests that?) Who saw a pattern, publicised it, and has been proven correct.
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Not sure to which post you refer (probably re dirty hydrogen?) but my "seeing the light" (or rather *focussing* that light) is in no small part due to Mr Seba.
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You obviously didn't understand.
???