Showing what OZONE does to the FOAM in a Philips Respironics CPAP Machine
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- Опубликовано: 13 окт 2024
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I crack open two CPAP machines to see what OZONE does to foam in a Respironics machine.
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Interesting article on ozone from NOAI (Remediation Association). They liken ozone exposure to rubber/plastic like dampness exposure to wood. You can wet the bottom of a cup, set it on a wooden end table for a few minutes and remove... you see a ring for a little bit, then it dries up and goes away. Do this repetitively for months and will have the same result and still the ring dries up without damage. But place a wet bottom of glass on the end table and leave overnight and by the next morning the ring is set and will never disappear. In other words with this analogy, "soaking" rubber or plastic in ozone for days at a time will have a much more detrimental effect than having the same cumulative time of ozone applied in relatively short bursts over an extended time. While ozone torture tests are interesting, they are not necessarily scientific and may not deliver a true "read-across" result. I'm not sure what is right or wrong, but could see potential validity in this apples to oranges proposition.
Fair point. The ozone applied was done in a bin that is not even close to air tight. It was just to keep things together and dust free. Only one ozone generator cycle was done per day. (I think this is why I didn't get as dramatic a result as Nick at CPAP Reviews.)
From reading up on Ozone, it has a short life and is completely gone after 30 minutes even in an airtight container. The most popular ozone cleaner is a closed container.
@@Freecpapadvice I tend to discount Nick’s technique since it does not mimic real usage, especially in a situation where concentration and length of exposure are exaggerated by several orders of magnitude. He did an accelerated destructive testing which is a valid quality engineering approach to determine when something will fail. Anything subject to this testing approach will fail at some point - from airplane wings to car doors, paint, etc.
@@Freecpapadvice did the ozone affect the shape of the screws? What was the date of manufacture for each of the two machines? I suggest that the one with the "very different" screws may be the younger of the 2 which may also lead to your findings.
@@Freecpapadvice I was actually glad you did the accelerated testing because it was representative on a different accelerated level. Obviously, you weren't writing an article publishable in JAMA with it, but your audience was helped by getting a test that may not have happened at all if you weren't able to condense it the way you did. So, even though it's not apples to apples, 100% perfectly, I think it's a great preemptive test that might convince others (or even cpap manufacturers) to do their own real apples to apples tests. I mean honestly, you're a dude in a mancave, not JAMA. If everyone now wants a 100% perfect JAMA publishable test, maybe they need to give you the $50K to support it. Btw, I've appreciated you so much over the last several years. You even helped my mom to start wearing a CPAP, where I couldn't. You've also helped me figure out a ton of my own issues and also taught me OSCAR mumbo jumbo. Thank you for telling me about this recall. You're saving me and my mom's lives yet again!
That’s exposing it to ozone for 45 days 24 hrs a day but most cleaners only run for 7 min.at a time
I started PAPing back in 2014. My DME asked me if I was interested in SoClean, and gave me a brochure (remember those, brochure?). I asked them if 'they' used SoClean, as they also have a sleep study clinic as well. Their answer was 'no'. And that was my answer as well.
In all honesty, I was indeed interested and tempted. Knowing what is known now, and always had a Resmed device, I consider myself lucky!
Well done Jason!
Yeah I was interested in soclean as well until I found out what they do any why they don't work. It's just an expensive box of snake oil though.
I was interested at first but i really like the hurricane dryer and i wash everything by hand
#ResMed VOIDS the #GARANTINEE #WARRANITY if #OZONE CLEANING SANITIZER is USED on Their #PAPs
Did you ask how they disinfect the units between patient visits at the sleep center. They probably wash the components. If yes, No need to use ozone.
Great video!. Now I want to see a video where you take the foam from your control unit, cut it in half, and run the experiment again, this time with half of that foam in your ozone box.
I've been back in forth with the manufacturers for years about adding an additional air filter south of the blower to prevent anything like this from ever happening.
I work for a CPAP company that was supplying dream stations, we found out from a PATIENT about the recall instead of philips coming to us first in order to have a resolution for patients. Philips is a deplorable company.
I had a sleep doctor appointment June 22, about a week after the recall was issued. The issue didn't even come up and I haven't gotten any messages from them, I only found out about it from a friend a few days ago. It seems they also didn't notify sleep clinics.
We actually did talk about whether I should get a new machine since my Dreamstation is just a bit over 5 years old. I said no, because it's too late in the year to do a 'convert rental to purchase' with my insurance by the end of the year, and it gets annoying dealing with a continued rental if insurance changes next year.
I'm reasonably confident that my doc was also completely unaware of any recall, since it would have almost certainly have come up in the discussion if she'd known.
@@jonc4403 my doc is aware, but doesn't care. He says to keep using the machine. I found out about the recall from a recommended video on RUclips.
@@byronrogers4489 doesn't care or thinks no therapy would be more harmful, than some small amount of a possible carcinogen?
The gasses mentioned have shown a link to cancer in rats but no human data. Nothing on the dosage that's dangerous or what the foam produces. Most substances need a lot for prolonged periods to be a risk. At low doses it might never be a problem.
@@jonc4403 weird. My doctor contacted me 2 days after the recall was announced.
I have a Philips ROKU TV and it is the worst TV ever. I wanted to just throw it in the trash after the first couple of months. Philips keeps downloading updates (you can't turn them off) and every time there's an update it does not fix any of the previous bugs but rather adds some more.
The firmware has a memory leak and no update has ever fixed it. You have to cycle AC power to force a full reboot to clear the memory stack. It always starts to go weird in a couple of days and I have to power cycle. So I put it on a lamp timer which cuts power at 3AM and back on at 3:30AM. But even so sometimes during the day I will have to power cycle again.
And finally - the built in Roku is running on a processor that is seriously under powered. It is very slow to respond to button pushes and often seems like it's stuck but if you wait a long time it finally starts going again. So I connected an external Roku Premier. Much better.
I also have a long rant about my Dreamstation but today I have been fighting that TV.
Good thing I couldn’t afford one after paying out of pocket for my cpap and my cpap equipment dryer because I wanted a So Clean so bad. One of those rare occasions it pays to be broke.
The foam off gasses chemicals, ozone or not you should stop using any philips product
@@patv4475 yeah I did, but I’m still glad I never bought an ozone cleaner. I had only been using my cpap since December and I stopped using it when I heard about the recall a few weeks ago.
Those old enough to remember what a VCR is may remember the news that came out from the various manufacturers that warranties would be voided if an "ionizer" was used around the machine. The ionizer generated ozone. It made the air smell fresher and would cause the rubber belts in the VCR to deteriorate and break in a very short time. When I got my CPAP years ago I refused the offer of a HUGE discount on one of the more popular cleaning devices. I knew what the ozone would do to the plastic parts.
Thank you for showing what the insides look like and how you took it apart. That's what I am going to do tomorrow for sure, take that foam out. I imagine the machine will sound a lot louder, but hey, it can do double duty as a sound machine.
Update: FIXED IT! Took the foam out. Half was looking iffy, half ok. But in the summer or when the room gets warm OR when I leave the tank in there full of water.... the humidity goes backward into the machine and it smells exactly like when toddlers slobber over animal crackers, Putting it back in was pretty tricky. Mine had star shaped screw slots. Luckily, had some odd-sized small flatheads that did well as a workaround.
A huge Thank You and Appreciation to you and Nick our CPAP friend form Australia for posting these concerning Foam issues with the Phillips machines. My wife and I at present are both using these by the way Medicare and our Insurance have covered us over the years that being said I wonder if Medicare has taken up this problem but that could be another issue that may involve user compliance and DME suppliers. Now back to it this is my 2nd machine my first 7years ago was an autoset resmed 9 , her first was the Phillips DreamStation 6 years ago when it was time to replace my 1st I opted to switch to the Phillips it made sense for us to use the Phillips for compatible supplies cleaning and adjusting the settings . After watching yours and Nicks information I took the older Phillips machine my wife had used for 5 years and for practice dismantled it and took out the foam there was no evidence of any deterioration or particles . I then took our newer Phillips Dreamstation machines apart and removed the foam again there was no visible deterioration or particles the foam was intact with no separation, I did keep the foam (now in storage bags) in which some had separated due to the small cut outs from the inside of the air chambers during its removal. I also blew the air chambers out with high air pressure and sanitized them prior to reinstalling the units to operating condition we have never used any cleaners on our equipment other than soap and warm water. I do feel safer about using these machines but I do have a concern about the the air pump itself being contaminated with the carcinogens that had passed through the foam while the machine is idle or being back flushed by the ozone cleaners . With out sending these units to a lab how can we test the internal parts of the air pumps ? Sorry for the long winded post and thanks again to you and Nick for all your information .
My husband never used ozone and the foam still disintegrated. But we found out too late as he already has cancer in his trachea/windpipe, lungs and lymph nodes.... AND colon (they say likely from the dust getting into the mouth and swallowing it). He used the same machine for 10 years.
this is so sad!
@@alinasama721 he just passed away in February 😢
@@vleeism oh, no. I am so sorry to hear about this! Have you sued Philips yet?
@@vleeism how long have you notice there's foam debris coming out of it?
@@vleeismmam I am just 20 and used disintegrated foam what should I do now I am feeling throat irritation and tickling in lungs
Thank you for the information. I have a resmed CPAP therapy and i use the hurricane dryer every day for the hoses and every other day for the humidfier. I wash every thing before i dry it.
When I disassembled my DreamStation1, the foam had deteriorated to a greasy substance that also coated the interior of the motor. Thanks SoClean!
What happened to your eye? Was it the makers of ozone?
Great job! Loved your sense of humor too! Excellent!
Ohhh good video! This is exactly what I figured was happening. Never used ozone cleaning, but I did go ahead and remove my foam.
Extra THICK THANKS to you my friend. But I really need the other vid you reference about should i remove my foam. Mines a M series and my doctor just 4days ago said it wasn't affected, probably gonna tear mine apart ,no brute force tho😂✌️ also really wanna see the inside of that squirrel cage tho ✌️✌️👍👍👍🖖🖖🖖🖖🖖🖖
What TYPE of FOAM is used n the #REMStarMSeries #PAP --ー NOT #POLYETHER like #ResMed?
So I just got a so clean from a friend that stopped using his c-pap and cleaner. , I'm not a daily cleaning freak , I change the filter probably no as much as I should. Probably wont use the so clean every day.
I think if you exposed it to the o3 everyday it might cause damage. Like leaving a lawnmower cover out in direct sunlight. Rots over time , faster in direct constant contact.
But over all good video. :)
Are there other machines other than the dreamstation one that's affected machine that you had on your workbench looks like my old one which I noticed black dust in my humidifier chamber also. I started using my first one in back in 2009 or 2010 now I have some sort of physical problem with my right arm and hand I'm going to a neurologist to try to figure out what's going on this might be the cause thank you for blowing the whistle on this
Wow. Amazing. We have a so clean. My husband uses it, I wash and use your citrus cleaner and the Hurricane dryer. We both use the Airfit np30i. His is yellow from the ozone baking and mine is still like new. We get all our supplies delivered at the time. My old Breeze nasal pillows game me the best fit no leakage 20 out of 20 but the np30i leaks I do good to get a proper seal. I don't use a chin strap because my mouth is sealed on the inside naturally it seems. My pressure is 11/20. Great air bad seal. Dropping pressure doesn't seems to help the seal? Just use Polygrip huh?
Mine
hi would it be a good idea to take our the foam. we don't know how long it will take to get q different machine.
Very interesting because Phillips asked me if I used ozone to clean my DreamStation.
The answer to this is always NO.
(because ozone doesn't clean anything! 🤣)
@@Freecpapadvice All depends on what clean means: dust NO, mud NO, kills bacteria and viruses YES, dangerous to humans YES depending in concentration, Helpful to our world YES in the stratosphere by reducing the amount of UV light reaching the earth.
phillips reached out to you, wow… when did you registered your machine for recall?
@@Freecpapadvice www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/cpap-machine-cleaning-ozone-uv-light-products-are-not-fda-approved
@@anrn5303 No they did not reach out to me. Iv joined the classs action Law Suit.
My Dr. recommended Ozone cleaners when I started in 2018. Didn’t have comments when asked about using it and the recall.
Ozone as you know is ionized oxygen - I'm fortunate in that my CPAP tech guys never recommended ozone cleaners. However , I don't know who makes them, but it seems logical they should be part of this foam Gate problem as well . I am assuming Resmed is still in the clear?
They made a statement saying they are okay and not the same foam.
@@StephanieP3 not the same foam isn't the same as safe. They do say not to use ozone. But have they tested the foam they use again or just relying on old results like Philips had done?
I have a background in computers and digital electronics. I'm pretty confident I could probably build a CPAP. But it would take me more than a trip to Home Depot (probably have to order some specialty stuff from electronics supply websites), and it wouldn't be nearly as accurate as the ones Phillips, Resmed, and others can make with their years of experience, and the amount in R&D they spend. Um, no thanks, I'll just continue using my Resmed.
😂 Fair enough!
Building a machine that pumps air wouldn't be hard. The real work is in the R&D side - developing algorithms etc.
It seems to me very difficult to build an auto cpap, bipap etc. But maybe not so hard to build one if you know your number and can just build a blower that reliably shots out exactly that oressure.bit would seem a lot better than going without or breathing outgassed components. I'm a12 send me one 🤪
@@SandraWarmbreath Yeah, that's the difficult part. In the end though it's software on a controller that reads inputs from various sensors, and then uses that data to adjust the motor speed of the ducted fan in order to achieve desired pressures. Automatic functioning, you would have to read for slugs of backpressure (the start of the exhale, before the mask ports open up) followed by a reduction in pressure (patient breathing in). When none is detected for a certain amount of time, log as an event, and then gradually increase pressure until another one is detected. Then if normal breathing resumes, you can reduce the pressure.
Of course, I'm taking a guess here, what they actually do is beyond me (since most companies are closed source with their algos). But logically, it's what makes sense to me.
I've thought about making one too. I would think an Arduino UNO would have the computing power needed to make a very basic model but to control the pressure, humidifier and data logging might require a Arduino Mega or Raspberry Pi. The expensive part is the equipment required to get everything properly calibrated which would cost more than a lifetime renting a CPAP machine.
I have a Dreamstation 1 and did the foam removal (attempt). My foam was very very oily and breaking down. When I stuck needle-nose pliers in to pull on it, it just crumbled. I pulled a small piece out on the pliers, I touched the foam and it disintegrated into a greasy, mess. I did not SEE any particulates or visible break-down. I had to touch it and feel the foam in order to see it. I use a SoClean Ozone cleaner. I've taken the SoClean OUT OF USE and am now waiting for Philips to ship me the Dreamstation 2 that they said they would when I registered (a few days ago). Going to be waiting a while I think.
I've owned and used a CPAP machine for years. Actually, I've been thru 3 or 4 of them. Started using an Ozone cleaner over a year ago. I was notified a while back that my machine was on the recall list and would either be replaced or repaired before the end of 2022. I was told not to worry that Ozone has not been shown to cause any problem but I should stop using the Ozone machine if I was using one. So, what is this really doing to my lungs? Should I be worried?
Also, do you know anything about this "Inspire" device that is being advertised on TV. It's supposed to eliminate the need for a CPAP.
A device is surgically inserted in your chest (like a pacemaker) and keeps your throat open with and electrical shock.
Did you ever determine what was causing the whining sound in the blower of the ozone-exposed machine? My System One 60, which I have now sidelined due to the sound abatement foam issue, has that issue and I wonder if it is due to the foam or something specific to the blower.
So what your saying is that my SoClean is causing more damage to my CPAP than cleaning?
what about the small filter on the outside of the machine? is also dangerous?
I am new to cpap. I have a resmed airsense 10. What kind of cleaner would u use? Just dawn?
Get a dream station one about 2mo ago get into information found out it had 832 hours I figured out that I use it about 598 hour so it has about a 240 hours that I did not.but on do this unit come test hours or did they give a used unit
I called my sleep center today to get a copy of my prescription (in case I can find a Resmed or F&P) before my Dreamstation is fixed. They told me that they were hearing that new machines would start shipping out as replacements starting this November. That sounds too good to be true to me!
November?? Wow. I’m so grateful my mother in law had an extra resmed machine. I’ll use that until I hear from Phillips. That’s a lot of months some will have to go using their machine. 😬
Well they started in October.
Beware! This is a nice video to help the System One CPAP owners to rid their units of the dreaded foam. Please note that just taking the foam out allows dirty air to bypass the air filter, as the foam serves as a “sound abatement” wall for the air ducting. What I did for my units, is to cut a thin gasket of food-safe baking silicone using the foam as the template, and installed this on top of the foam (against the motor housing while leaving the foam in the bottom of the unit). Therefore, the silicone sheet seals against the bottom of the motor housing and preserves the proper airflow of the air ducting, while isolating the airflow from the defective foam. All intake air must go through the air filters with this setup. I feel this is a better solution than to have my unit open to the atmosphere with no filtering (by only removing the foam).
So now that I have my new Philips ASV Bipap that has been 2 years coming, what was put into the unit for foam if any at all?
I've never used an Ozone cleaner. My supplier has 1) Still never notified me of the recall. I just saw the level 1 FDA recall today (it's been out a while). 2) Does still call to send me supplies and offer me an Ozone cleaner...
I use a SoClean machine with my Dream Station CPAP. If the SoClean machines can damage the foam how come the FDA hasn't issued a recall of the SoClean machine. The company now has a new version which breaks down the oxygen molecule and has filed a defamation suit against Phillips. I will continue to use both the Dream Station and the SoClean. I registered my device with Phillips and eventually they will replace it. I have not had any of the symptoms that Phillips has listed.
Can we operate the machine without the foam?
Thanks for another great video. Very helpful. Thumbs up!
I don't use ozone. I just wash with dish soap everyday and then in my heater to dry. No problems.
Still exposed to VOCs
@@patv4475 from what Pat?
@@sirenmuscle the foam off gasses chemicals from day one, even without ozone use
@@sirenmuscle The foam can breakdown and emit volatile organic compound gasses just due to age, even if the machines hadn't been used, sitting on a shelf. That is why many medical providers and Phillips are saying not to use the machines until the recall is serviced. I'd probably recommend borrowing a different machine (another brand, or a DS2 if you prefer to stay with Phillips) until they service the recall on yours. You might be able to take it apart and remove/replace the foam with something safer if you're feeling handy, but I won't recommend it. If you do, make sure to seal off the ducting well in the machine. Leaks in the assembly can mess with how the machine adapts to events and reports data.
@@reallynotbob6 I dont use phillips. I use resmed air sense auto 10.
Does ozone hurt a ResMed unit? I’m using a so clean once a week.
Any experience/opinions on the cheap Apex cpap machines? I’ve seen them as low as $249 new
Wonder how many people got nasal, throat, or lung cancer while using the CPAP?
Great video! Would really be great if you’d give your thoughts on and show removal of Dreamstation foam. I had my machine completely apart (it’s not rocket science), but freaked out about drilling in to the casing….wondering if it would be noisy…how do I plug it up after drilling etc. So….I put it back together and am still breathing this poison every night. I can’t get another machine for a year….which is probably when Philips will start doing whatever they are going to do to rectify this. I was wondering about Medicare paying for a new machine when I’m due if Philips sends a replacement prior to my due date. I would hate to be stuck with their crappy new Dreamstation 2 for another 5 years. What a frick’n conundrum.
Thank you! Very informative
Static electricity is the cause?
I did not ever use a So Clean device or any other Ozone cleaning devises on my CPAP machine. Ozone is highly reactive and will destroy plastic over time. Check out your outdoor lawn furniture webbing and you will find that after sitting out in the sun for a few years the plastic fibers in the webbing are breaking and being destroyed. That is caused by the UV light from the sun and Ozone in the Ambient Air at ground level.
If you ever do another experiment, then perhaps you could use some white tape to more clearly show the foam with its contrast. Thanks for the video!
One big reason why ozone is a red herring is that most CPAP ozone cleaning devices clean peripherals only (tubes and masks) and don't clean the main unit (where the foam is).
SoClean does pump it into the machine though
@@cebruthius Yes, that's why I said "most". But Philips has already successfully clouded the water by using a broad brush of "ozone cleaners" as the culprit for foam degradation, rather than *specific* ozone cleaners that are even capable of cleaning the main unit. All those other ozone cleaners that can only clean masks and hoses are irrelevant. The number of compromised units Philips is referring to is therefore a subset of a subset -- first, the subset of people who clean their Philips machines with ozone, and then a subset of THESE people who use ozone cleaners capable of cleaning the main unit. According to Philips' own reasoning, the total number of machines with degraded foam is equal to or smaller than this number....but they're notably avoiding this corrective qualifier.
But the foam outgassing is unrelated completely to ozone cleaners. Ozone is a separate and new problem Phillips didnt mention until their foam had to be recalled for outgassing multiple compounds, and you can bet it's not just about 24hrs of outgassing. We are being led down a garden path in my opinion!
@@SandraWarmbreath Don't worry. While I normally like lawyers about as much as anyone, in this particular case I'm smiling at the prospect of class action lawyers digging their mitts into Philips. They won't be so easily bait-and-switched with Philips' ozone distraction from outgassing
Philips need to say the levels of VOC exposure the foam in these machines were creating without ozone, I never used ozone but I used this machine for a long time, I’m worried sick about these chemicals
Philips does say it can off gas from the INITIAL start up, of course it says this in the information that was sent to doctors and not to peons like us. So they must have pulled some off the shelf and tested it. I'm also in a FB group with people who say they never used ozone but they did a "foamectomy" on their machine and they still found degraded foam with a lot of dust.
@@katherinereece yea exactly, my foam was intact but I’d like more info about these VOCs
A certain degree of caution is always a good thing, but you have to keep things in perspective. We're surrounded by VOCs and other chemicals. Just about everything around us made of plastics is off-gassing. The foam pillow I put my head on is off-gassing. Anything plastic that smells like plastic is off-gassing. New car smell = off-gassing. That CPAP machine is going to do more good for your health and well-being than a few extra molecules of chemicals will likely do to harm you.
@@JohnJones-oy3md I agree but off gassing directly with pressure to your lungs is a scary and dangerous thing. Why would Philips say to cease usage
@@patv4475 My guess would be lawyers and liability. Again, it's all a risk/reward ratio we have to individually decide on. Philips shouldn't have put us in this position, of course.
Just watched your latest video. What about the DreamStation? Does it destroy the functionality of the machine to remove the foam? Been using the DreamStation for 3 years, guess that the gases did their damage already. Kinda closing the barn door after the horse escapes. Sorry about your Dad - and your eye!
I understand that the foam in a DreamStation is housed in plastic holder (See Nick’s video removing the foam from a Dreamstation). While the holder is not airtight, I think ozone would have a harder time getting to the foam.
Watch the Aussie guys deconstruct of the dreamstation, he shows how air does circulate through the foam!
If a person decides to do this on their machine, can it run without the foam or maybe put it in a plastic zip bag so that the particles will stay in the bag?
Oh and by the way if there are other machines affected by this can you make a list of them all so we know what to look for!
Glad you followed up with this video!
So.. Is the machine safe(safer) if you never used ozone on it?
For the particles yes, even tho it can still deteriorate without ozone usage, you’d have to open and check your foam as for the VOCs off gassing it seems like its from initial start but now philips in their new update are saying it’s only in the first couple of days. Who knows if we can trust that information…
I don't think they are safe after 24 hrs, otherwise there would be no recall and recommendation to stop using the machine. The recall wasn't about ozone, I don't think it was mentioned. The point is at least 3 types of compounds are outgassed, Inc VOCs, toluene & 1 other I can't recall, so don't buy this drivel from Phillip's about 24 hrs, maybe 1 type of compound.
Is there a way that I can get a replacement foam and fix this myself?
Trying to understand, maybe somebody can clear this up.....I use an ozone cleaner on the tube and mask only, never on the unit itself. Since the tube/mask is past the actual machine and air only flows out of it...do I need to be concerned about the "effects of ozone on the foam" that I keep reading about. Any clarification appreciated.
I’m wondering the same thing!! I’ve used my soclean since Xmas 2020 and I don’t think I’ll be using it anymore!!!
I use an ozone cleaner called Respify. It only cleans the mask, tubing, etc. Not the unit, itself. It is very small. Fits in your palm. Cheap, too. Gave $99. Seen em as low as $79, since my purchase. Beats the heck outa trying to dry out the hose tubing, everyday. I have had some durability issues with it. The power cord quit working, early on, but the company did promptly replace free of charge. Just letting people know that there are options to soclean, out there & you don't have to use the ozone on the unit, itself. Hope this helps somebody.
I just don't understand the ozone issue with the foam. The tech that explained how to use the Dreamstation said to wash the water reservoir and wipe the machine. Why on earth would I hook it up to an ozone cleaner. That's bizarre.
And please don't tell me that, if I used one on the hose that, that would transfer to the machine.
@TheLankyLefty27, you also stated from day one of this "foam gate" how convenient Philips timing was. One day "foam is a "possible" problem" and the next day "NEW MACHINE". If I remember right you were the first one to warn people. Thank you so much.
Why did they make a machine that allows foreign material to get in the air way?
A white piece of paper on the table top while you rub the foam would show the partials coming off of the foam.
Thanks for your review!
How do you get ozone in your cpap?
I've never trusted ozone, now I feel vindicated. Thanks
Shit I have an airwave machine but I only use my so clean twice a week? Is that an issue?
Just a quick question…I always put a drop of lavender oil in the water tank. That wouldn’t have any effect on anything right?
Don’t know that there is anything “wrong” with doing that….but I think I’d probably just put a drop on a cotton ball right next to the air intake.
I seem to recall seeing a warning somewhere about never putting oils of any kind in the water tank.
I will def start using the cotton ball idea in the air intake rather than putting it directly in the water. Thanks y’all!
I decided to buy a hose plug and to not connect to Cpap machine on my so clean
Yup ozone rots pretty much anything. I only use it for last ditch sterilization tasks when nothinh else worked. Fwiw my honey's cpap is identical to the one with the blue motor and red board. The motor finally died after 9 years of use. I fixed it up because nobody had a cpap machine available and without it she cannot sleep at all.😢 the circuitry on the red motherboard has a lot of protection and safety features not found on newer stuff. Also has a really wide voltage compliance range of about 10.6 to 18v which is impressive to say the least. Used one with the blue board to fix hers, the thing hardly seen use at all before the mobo died. Go figure.
Several things; You didn’t have total control of both units since they were in patient’s possessions so there’s no history of what the units may have been exposed to. Example: Did someone use lysol while the machine was running. The fact that there’s different screws between units makes me think that the units are of different ages. Did the factory change foam types or suppliers? That being said, do I think the ozone damaged the foam yes, because I happen to know about ozone’s caustic qualities to plastics. Another thought: Do ozone CPAP cleaning product manufactures bear some responsibility in this?
Thanks for the video.
You show how ambient air enters the CPAP (System One) through the filter, the air “touches” the foam, it proceeds to the blower and then on to the hose (or humidifier). Correct understanding?
If we have a Soclean 2, we must have the humidifier attached. Ozone is injected into the humidifier (with or without water), ozone then proceeds to go into the hose and on to the mask which is inside Soclean 2. Inside the Soclean 2, ozone is reduced to diatomic oxygen. Agree?
So how does ozone get to the foam? It cannot get there through the normal intake, UNLESS there is a high concentration of ozone in the ambient air. Or it back feeds to the connection in the humidifier into the CPAP and finds its way to the foam.
Not sure how ozone would touch the foam in a Dreamstation.
DreamStation 2 given its design it cannot use Soclean 2 since air does not flow in a straight line, the airflow makes a U-Turn in the humidifier
Regardless though, Soclean 2 can be used to sanitize the hose and mask: ozone enters the hose through a sealed connection, flows thorough the hose, out from mask which is placed inside Soclean where the ozone is reduced to diatomic oxygen.
Flows from humidifier through tubing to mask like you say, but also back into the blower and entire housing of machine (through foam) and out the air intake.
Humidifier through entire internal circuit is probably 8-10 inches in length. Humidifier through tubing to mask is about 66-70 inches.
Regardless of where the ozone goes it breaks down after 30 minutes or so.
@@Freecpapadvice How about putting a plug on the exit to the humidifier so that it does not back feed into the blower? Would sanitize not only the tube and mask (perhaps the most critical component) but also the humidifier. Or just simply sanitize the hose and mask? Notice I use the term sanitize not clean.
BTW ozone has a distinctive smell - the smell of an electrical short circuit. Typically Soclean 2 runs about 7 mins, I never smelled ozone, however I never opened the lid on Soclean. Have to wait two hours to take the mask out of the Soclean chamber.
Something does not make sense. Problem 1: Ozone damages the foam and helps to deteriorate the foam and it breaks up into small black specs. Has anyone seen the specs in the humidifier? A humidifier chamber is needed for Soclean. Problem 2: Even without the use of ozone, the foam apparently releases VOCs. If that is the case, should we also worry about the filter elements in System One and DS1, especially System One which uses a foam filter?
6:16 - Good start, but TBH, there are too many variables in this test. Two different machines used by different unknown people in different unknown places. Different insides to the machines, so foam could come from different suppliers. I realize it's not realistic to do ($$$), but using two identical new machines would go a long way towards giving a persuasive result.
Agree with John. The control machine has clearly been used less and the dust in the machine is likely due to natural accumulation over time and/or clear differences in the machine design (note the control machine has different shaped foam corresponding to different silicon gasket shape at the inlet). The air does not go through the foam - the foam forms the lower wall of the air path. Any dust that makes it past the filters (which may have been missing when used) will often land on the foam and stick/rest there and the is more near the inlet reducing as you get closer to the motor inlet. It's not clear if the flakes coming off the ozone foam are just that residual dust or degraded foam particles.
@@kappa7 I’m pretty sure the air does go through the foam…if not, what I am missing
@@patv4475 The foam is not really air permeable. If it was air would be drawn in through various other holes in the housing rather than just through the air filter. Air enters through the filter and follows the path through the bottom of the housing above the foam. This is probably clearest at around 3:57 in this video.
@@kappa7 interesting, thanks. I’ve use a device like this and the anxiety is killing me, so many mixed opinions 🤔
Do the soclean machines hurt resmeds S9+h5 ?
My supplier failed to notify me of this recall on the Philips machines and I ever saw anything on the news. Yet at the same time my supplier knew there was a problem, they would keep asking me if I would like to buy one of those ozone cleaners for my CPAP machine. Sounds almost criminal!
Thanks I asked someone about ozone issue they did not reply..good vid
Good to know Ozone kills CPAP machines and when to avoid it - only thing I ozone these days are hose and water tank (after washing them first). side note: Am curious if anti-bacterial filters make any difference wrt needing to clean CPAP machines (does enough bacteria get through filters to be problem?).
With CPAP gear, it's not necessarily bacteria that's the problem, it's when you get organic compounds, such as spit and such, on the equipment, mold and fungus can grow on it. Lanky Lefty did a video explaining that on one of his O'zone gen reviews. I would think using a finer filter (which is generally marketed as antibacterial) would help with fine dust accumulation inside of the machine and may extend the life of them. Downside is that you may have to change filter out more.
Edit: My DME only told me about cleaning the hose, elbow, mask, tank, and immediate filter and tank area; as well as changing the filter. At least for the moment I'm only going to stick to cleaning what my DME said, and they didn't mention using O'zone either. Just original dawn soap or baby shampoo and warm water on the removable bits once a week, and cleaning the mask and elbow every morning. I think trying to clean the inside of the machine might create more of a risk than necessary.
I think the ozone cleaner companies are also the ones at fault. Very happy I never used it. I’m awaiting my DS2 or whatever fix Phillips decides on.
But it creates VOCs from day 1
This isn't an issue on Resmed units, is it?
Correct.....for now! I'm sure it's being scrutinized like crazy.
Lefty isn’t that little square foam filter on outside of that unit the same foam
I have a System One much like ones used by LL in video. The small rectangular foam filter is an air intake filter and is a different consistency from the sound proofing foam beneath the blower unit.
I removed the foam from my System One
Brilliant video
My CPAPs have all been provided by the VA but I have to be contacted about this issue...🤨
Couple screws here couple screws there 😆
Thank you.
I don't get it: what's the point of ozone anyway?
Ozone is a pretty agressive stuff. Kills the germs, obviously. But what about dust? Nothin'..
My CPAP is a basic sys one model. I'm gonna disassemble that. Investigation time.. :-)
I have never put anything in my humidifier except demineralised water and I have been using my Phillips one like this for 10 years. Never knew why I had such bad headaches and now I have shortness of breath and am on special meds for the headaches. I have just now ordered a new F&P machine and I intend to get on the lawsuit list when it starts and claim not only my money back and the money for a new one but compensation for my breathing issues. I am so angry that they didn’t even have the guts to tell me in person or by any means actually. I found out by accidentally coming across these RUclips posts. Negligent in every sense of the word. I hope they go broke.
Its been know for years that ozone breaks down plastics etc. and is toxic to breath. When so clean and others showed up, I told my wife we would not use it. The ozone producing equipment companies are also liable. So glad I never used them .
I check my unit the foam in my and it was not expose to ozone. The foam was degraded to a brittle melt when try to take out it was so brittle it breaks into little pieces to a sticky powdery mess. I live at where it very hot and the humidity is high, so if you live were it hot with high humidity it will degrade the foam too. Maybe someone can do a humidity experiment to see how humidity will degrade the foam. Even if the foam is not degraded and look new studies found that the foam material puts out chemical fumes which can lead to illness or cancer
Hey Jason - you should a got the wife to put that thing back together.
You never clarified this. When you say you pumped them "full" of ozone, were you using the ozone machine the way the mfg says? It only runs for a max of 10 minutes a day if you follow the suggestions. I am NOT saying the ozone is safe, I'm wondering about the scientific method of the test. You use a control which is excellent, but did you run the ozone machine 24/7 or just a few minutes each day? EDIT: I posted this before I read taseglet's comment, which is now pinned.
Did the taseglet reply answer your question? It's a very fair question.
a better test would be to get one piece of foam from the same machine, split it, and then expose half to ozone.
I was wondering why I get a notice about the $hitbox Philips machine I got. It's hopefully being swapped to a Resmed Air10 so I can sleep without a jet engine beside me.
That is a sign that your machine needs to be taken apart and completely cleaned, or that the bearings on the fan are failing. The bearings on my honey's machine fan failed and it gave lots of warning with a loud whining sound and it legit sounded like a jet engine failing at close range once i got the rotor to turn. 😲
yeah gas'll get ya
So here's the thing. Before the recall notice, I do not remember ever hearing or seeing ANYTHING about ozone being detrimental to CPAP equipment. I do not recall seeing anything in the Philips user documentation against using ozone disinfectors. (And you can bet that I will look again when I get home after work today. EDIT: See my additional comments further below, under "Edit (2021-07-17)".)
From this and your previous video (where you actually used those "control" and "ozone" containers on masks, etc.) I can NOW see that using ozone can be harmful to CPAP equipment. But, again, I knew nothing about this before the recall. No one ever pointed it out to me.
But what gets me is that Philips are NOW suddenly saying that using ozone is bad. Why the HELL did they not highlight this before? The cynic in me says that they are just trying to remove some of the blame from themselves and place some of the blame on users who have used ozone to disinfect their CPAP equipment. (Or for that matter, placing blame upon users who happen to live in climates with high heat and humidity. "You bad people; it's YOUR fault that the foam is breaking down because you did not move to a less hot and humid location, like Antarctica.")
But, in the end, it was Philips who made the choice to use dangerous foam materials in in their respiratory equipment. So their registration-form question about the use of ozone is completely bogus, IMHO.
As you said elsewhere, folks who used ozone can honestly say that they did NOT use ozone to "clean" their equipment, since ozone only disinfects; it does not clean off the oils etc.
Edit (2021-07-17):
Sorry for the delay in updating this comment.
I just downloaded PDF versions of the Philips DreamStation User Manual and the Philips DreamStation Heated Humidifier User Manual.
Neither PDF document contains the word "ozone". And, although both documents contain at-home cleaning instructions (page 24 in the main User Manual, and page 8 in the Heated Humidifier User Manual), neither of them says these are the ONLY recommended cleaning procedures (for cleaning at home).
On page 8 of the Heated Humidifier User Manual, under the heading "Hospital and Institution Disinfection: Water Tank, Seal and Heated Tubing", there is a "caution" that the disinfection procedures listed (for hospitals and institutions), are the only recommended procedures. But there is no similar caution or note under the "home" cleaning instructions above this on the same page.
Philips should have included warnings in their user documentation to specifically instruct patients to refrain from using ozone disinfectors. But they did not do that.
I'm head of Biomed Engineering for a very large hospital group in the UK. The VOC outgassing is a post manufacture issue which wouldn't be a problem for very long after first use, except where a user is using Ozone for sterilisation. Ozone has never been approved as a sterilisation method for these devices by Philips according to documentation made available in the UK, but it hasn't stopped some manufacturers selling such devices. Some might consider selling such devices to be unscrupulous. This has placed a lot of the onus on end users to realise that ozone sterilisation is a risk, particularly if they weren't provided to a patient by a hospital, but a detailed understanding such an issue is specialist stuff. In general, in the UK/EU, the only approved cleaning processes are those documented in the instructions for use, but maybe things have to be more rigorously defined in other markets.
The foam degradation issue is different. Foam degrades over time causing particulate matter to be emitted into the respiratory path. This is Philips' problem. It's a mess, it's causing no end of problems and they need to sort it out. At least they seem to be acknowledging that they have a problem.
@@drmal good stuff.
As to foam degradation, note the condition of the control unit's foam. Those are 50 series machines, the ones before the 60 series and Dreamstation. So more than 10 years old. Doesn't seem that degradation is a big issue w/o ozone or very humid conditions.
I would like to see more examples, from different regions, though. The humidity in Alabama is a lot different than California or Michigan.
Won't touch SoClean. Always was suspicious from *Day One*.
Excellent 😎🙏🏼
The issue is the PE-PUR foam that is used for sound abatement can degrade resulting in a host of issues including death Souce: FDA. I recommend requesting them to provide a shipping label to send your machine to a qualified testing facility for analysis. At their expense.
Unless or until this testing is conducted, you and they don’t know for sure if you may have been breathing in dangerous VOC’s. Don’t loose chain of custody with your machine by returning it.
Request Philips ship you a DreamStation II which uses silicone for sound abatement.
Been using ozone for 2 years . My foam looked just fine.On my Dreamstation.
I have a Dreamstation 1 and did the foam removal (attempt). My foam was very very oily and breaking down. When I stuck needle-nose pliers in to pull on it, it just crumbled. I pulled a small piece out on the pliers, I touched the foam and it disintegrated into a greasy, mess. I did not SEE any particulates or visible break-down. I had to touch it and feel the foam in order to see it. I use a SoClean Ozone cleaner. I've taken the SoClean OUT OF USE and am now waiting for Philips to ship me the Dreamstation 2 that they said they would when I registered (a few days ago). Going to be waiting a while I think.
@@dannymitchell9848 I stopped using my ozone to..Regestered a while ago have not heard anything from Philips.
@@mycontinental3611 Over here in The Netherlands I didn' t hear a peep from Philips or my CPAP provider.
A few days after the story broke in the news, the CPAP company simply disconnected the phone...
Here we have a kind of Obama care, mandatory insurance. Works for most of us fine. A CPAP will be provided without cost. Every 5 years replaced, tubes, masks, filters are sent automatically. In 13 years I used an M series and now I am halfway the lease of my 2nd System One. Because I have the symptoms like irritated throat, coughs, lots of ear problems and irritated eyes I switched to the use of my 2nd machine, I had bought and stationed in the house of my son in Fla. It's a rather cheap model, an iCH2 from Apex. In the few weeks I use it now, I don't feel much improvement yet.
If this is the case why is Sol Clean still pushing Ozone does no harm?
Another RUclipsr tested it on Resmed and a Phillips Dreamstation 2 and found that it didn't make those foam pieces any more brittle and didn't seem to break those down. It's just the foam used in the Phillips units earlier than the Dreamstation 2 were prone to it. Of course they tested effected units off the shelf and found that they were emitting possibly carcinogenic gasses without being used or cleaned by anything really. So just because someone didn't use a SoClean machine doesn't mean they're safe. Better to not use the machines, register them for recall, and borrow or get a different machine in the meantime if possible as Phillips seems to be taking their sweet time at it.
@@reallynotbob6 The issue is not JUST Philips, it is the FDA that needs to approve a new foam. The intent of the foam in System One and Dreamstation is to attenuate noise
@@lucabencini6940 They already have approved foam, which is being used in the DS2, and other than the different foam the assembly is pretty much the same.
@@reallynotbob6 I'm sure you are right. I did buy a DS2 from a wholesaler a very good price. While the design might be the same, it has a fundamentally different flow of the air. Firstly, the humidifier is integral (yes can be removed to add water) but must be attached to work unlike DS1 and secondly the flow makes a U Turn inside the humidifier. This means that Soclean 2 cannot be used. Of course, Soclean can be used to sanitize the hose and mask using an adapter.
@@lucabencini6940 Yeah, there might be a little bit of a difference to be noticed aside from how the humidifier attaches. But I saw vids where they took apart a DS1, and DS2, the ducted fan and intake assemblies looked the same. The circuitry and programming could be different though, as they probably made some optimizations in the years between the respective releases.
Looks like Philip’s is not the only one who’s gonna be in trouble..
Interesting! I bought an ozone generator but I never used it.. Phew
VOCs are a problem tho
@@patv4475 you mean from your breath?
@@roger8772 lol technically yes, since I inhaled them for many years
Don't joke, it's just not funny.
@@SandraWarmbreath who is joking?
So pissed off at myself for buying the ozone gizmo. It was so easy to use, and I'm a lazy MF. Gee, my family was getting on me for smoking a pipe/cigars, and this machine was probably giving me more poison than any pipe could. All of this sounds like the cigarette fiasco.
Not sure it's worse than the chemicals in pipes and cigars.
Looks like the "ozone" one was just used more, less intake filter changes. Seems just neglected and dusty. Not sold that the ozone is to blame for anything I saw.