I'm a drum teacher at a Christian College as well as a worship leader, and I have a lot of experience with needing to get quiet acoustic drum sounds for small venues. There are a few things I think would be valuable to add to JJ's strategies. • I find that low-volume settings benefit from very short drum resonance (no more than .75 seconds of perceivable resonance). We don't often want dead drums (although it can be a cool effect; eg. most stuff from Scary Pockets), but drums that don't ring that long will get out of the way of the other drums and sounds happening from stage, which enhances the perceived quietness. If you want to get these sounds, thick & coated drum heads with big, dark, thin cymbals is the way to go. • Tune the bottom head of your snare drum super tight, and move to bigger snare wires (we use a 42 strand that I found on Amazon for $9). This will help you get a responsive snare sound out of light hits, and the extra snare wires help you get this response from anywhere on the drum at any volume. You can also use your snare wires to fine-tune the resonance length for the snare drum, choking it if you go too tight, and extending it pretty long if you keep them loose. • If you're going to spend time, energy, and thought on quieting down your stick noise, PLEASE do the same for your kick drum beater. That is the often forgotten third stick. There are many solutions to this, including buying soft felt kick beaters, cutting an 'X' shape into the bottom of a tennis ball and sliding that over your normal kick beater, or gaff taping a towel around the kick beater. This helps you keep the aggressive feel your drummer might want to play with and that the drum deserves to resonate the way it is designed to without the extra noise and attack of a harder kick beater. • Don't be afraid of using brushes, especially nylon or plastic brushes (Vater Poly Flex Brush). They can sound like hot rods with less of the noise that hot rods produce on their own. Additionally, there are even quieter sticks than hot rods, like the Vater Monster Brush line. These will have less cymbal definition with lighter hits (like pinging a ride), but if you can be creative enough to avoid pinging the ride cymbal, everything else will still sound right. If you want to see all of these tips in action, check out the livestream of our college's convocation (while simultaneously ignoring the cues coming through the live stream. Whoops) ruclips.net/user/liveO7YvqwBwK6Q?si=caJx4vfBkynMab8d&t=124 Hope these tips can completment JJ's and help some churches and worship drummers out there!
Asking a drummer to keep it below 85db is kinda crazy. lol im not going to fault you if it's working for you. By all means..... but as a drummer and sound engineer myself, enclosing our drums yielded absolutely incredible results. When im on the kit I dont even consider my loudness. I just play the way I play, and play for the songs. When im running front of house I have near complete control of the kit. This is a controversial hot take, but if I didnt have a cage and i were told to play quiet, I would find a different church to play at, or I wouldnt play at all. Some will judge that harshly, but only a drummer knows what it feels like to let that energy fly, and just worship in your playing. That's a huge means of connection to God for me. Cages are extremely beneficial and I recommend them wherever possible.
Yeah dude I agree with you on this. The music we play in modern day church is written with loud drums. Playing at 85 db isn’t gonna cut it, it’s gonna sound weird in a mix lol. Nothing beats going all out on the bridge of a huge worship anthem to the king of kings. One of my church’s campuses is in a room almost the exact same size as the church in this video. We do a full cage in there and actually are able to push the drums in the PA. Everyone can play pretty much as hard as they want. It sounds huge and zero complaints.
I don't understand the hate for drum cages honestly. As a sound guy, my best mixes have come from drums that were in a full enclosure cause I can really push them and shape them to how I want them to sound. And all of our drummers love it as well cause they don't feel like they have to play quieter or what not.
We ended up with an open top shield around our kit. That way you get some of the loudness control but still maintain the live feel into the room. That way we can renforce the kit with the pa instead of completely reproducing it through the pa.
Speaking as a drummer here - they separate you from the rest of the band. They also don't sound great (tiny room with plexiglass). Harder for the rest of the band to see the drummer. Harder to interact musically with a band and a drummer that you can't physically see all that well.
The biggest factor in this issue really comes down to your drummer. If you have a skilled and disciplined drummer that can change their play style to fit the room, you can pretty much use an acoustic in any size room. If you're drummer isn't able to do that, save yourself the headaches and switch to electronic. Building your acoustic kit to fit the room matters too. If your room is 50x40, then maybe downsize to more of a cantina style kit. There's lots of factors that go into what's best for your situation. Good information in this video though!
As an Audio Engineer mixing sound for the Band. I'm in love with your Nuggets about Druming in the Church Arena Set-up during Praise & Worship Service.
After decades of playing to the room, using rods, playing electronics, by FAR, my best results have been using Silent Sticks by Adoro. It's a rare Sunday that I don't get positive positive comments from members of the congregation about the sound.
Hi folks I have found your channel I have only been playing for almost 3 years. I play acoustic drums at church I use light rods and I gel the Tom's and snare but I also have a couple of large handkerchiefs over the snare. God bless watching from morayshire Scotland
In the future, if upgrades are possible, I would be interested in purchasing a dry series of cymbals like those in Meinl's line. Most of their cymbals tend to be thin, and the dry ones have a pleasing, lower volume sound that isn't harsh. They blend easily with the rest of the band, are easy to mix, and don't have a sustaining, high frequency ring. As KeyofGtutorials suggested, downsizing to a simpler drum kit with fewer toms, cymbals, and microphones could allow them to better incorporate baffles to reduce bleed into the vocal mics. With fewer pieces and mics, there would be less bleed overall. AWESOME VIDEO AS ALWAYS!!!!
I am playing drums in church for more than 30 years (mostly ancient buildings with a lot of natural reverb) Its possible without cage but you might have to adapt playing style/equipment/sticks. (I am avoiding to use the crash cymbal for timekeeping 😊) And it is important to play for the audience/the band/for god and not for your personal proud! Be blessed! Greetings from Germany!
Super helpful! Trying to work on a context of a weekly setup and pack down in a school hall and some great tips to get us heading in the right direction
Watched this at 1.25x speed and he is fantastic. Such a clear communicator, so helpful. The ONLY thing I would've loved to see is him playing, some approved livestream / recording references for us to listen to!
As an audio engineer and a drummer, I see a fair share of bad information here. This may be a unique church with a quieter worship style or something else, I'm not sure. But drums for modern worship work well by being hit with decent velocity. If it is a bad acoustic environment then you need a drum enclosure OR electric drums. I agree with the guy when he said "its not about you" But that doesn't seem like what he was modeling when he went back to acoustic drums based on "his" preference. There are too many work arounds both at the kit and at the console to make acoustic drums work for a church that want 80 to 85 db to be their max volume. 🤦♂️
In the small/medium size church environment, I definitely prefer isolated drums - Zero worries/concerns, I just vibe out rocking the faith with total focus on tunes, worship, etc. - If you are going to stay with the large acoustic drum kit, at least get a set of Heartbeat Cymbals that will offer plenty of dynamics along with volume control - I endorse them and they are the best I've played in such settings - You've been there before but that room honestly needs a high quality electronic kit - Too stressful for all concerned in that space otherwise - And that's a huge kit, lol... \m/
A lot of churches quench the Holy Spirit! I think a drum shield would work in this environment! I also agree that dark and thinner cymbals would work better but everyone likes what they like, importantly a drummer should wear in ear monitors or hearing protection! But if The Holy Spirit wants you to play a certain way you have to flow with him!
Drum cages dont have to be extremely expensive. Start with any plexiglass shield you can find and build a frame around it. You can use plywood or thick industrial foam hardboard as the outer shell. We used both. Built it ourselves and it looked great and functioned beautifully well. That said, If its budget in this case, go with SQ7 instead of Avantis and save $8k. Spend that on a beautiful cage and killer PA.
Love this man’s thoughts on drumming! Our church auditorium is nearly identical to theirs and I would love to hear an example of what their music sounds like in this context. Anybody know where I can find anything?
A room that size needs a full drum enclosure, bottom line … by not having it, you’re just trying to come up with all these ways to control volume, which you would not need, if you just get the right tool, which is an enclosure. Electronic drums would next best option, which have all the dynamics you need, but do have to have top of the line Roland VAD. This approach takes away touch and technique and tone from a drummer. Dowel drum drumsticks are not for controlling volume, they are a tone tool. A drummer is responsible for the volume, but it’s not fair to ask a drummer to play to such a room when there is a way to control it better with an enclosure. And I am both a drummer and mix engineer, thus experience from both sides of the stage. Sabian FRX cymbals would be best for that environment with no cage or cymbal shields, and Aquarian focus x coated top and bottom for toms, response 2 coated for snare, Superkick/Regulator combo for kick, would be best heads in that situation too, if you insist on no shield, along with some snare weight dampeners and/or big fat snare drum muffle rings.
A drum shield would work for that size church to me a full enclosure could help but sometimes that could be too much! Also there are different types of churches, when The Holy Spirit hits you you just have to play in tune with him! If the Holy Spirit wants you to play a certain way you just have to flow with him! Lots of churches quench the Holy Spirit from moving!
This video was well done and the info was well presented...Unfortunately I'm just not sold. If you had the option to mix a modern worship band in a room that size with and without an enclosure, you would choose to use the enclosure 10/10 times.
I disagree, YES if I played this kit I would totally switch out the crashes for my BIG and Thin Crash/Rides, however...some church drummers just don't necessarily want the "MODERN WORSHIP" sound! So yeah I would have to hear their services and their worship band.
@@hiptoalieu I agree I just can see how loud these would be if they were going for that CCM sound. I did some research on their church and the band plays very conservative
One more trick is instead of brushes to use fingers. Seriously, how it’s possible to make a good sound with brushes? I have smaller room and drums with cage without problems.
![Gucci Mane & Sexyy Red - You Don't Love Me [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/j7IBqyFKT4c/mqdefault.jpg)
This man needs to be featured again. He is such a character, and full of knowledge. He sounds like he was the main drummer from the military.
I'm a drum teacher at a Christian College as well as a worship leader, and I have a lot of experience with needing to get quiet acoustic drum sounds for small venues. There are a few things I think would be valuable to add to JJ's strategies.
• I find that low-volume settings benefit from very short drum resonance (no more than .75 seconds of perceivable resonance). We don't often want dead drums (although it can be a cool effect; eg. most stuff from Scary Pockets), but drums that don't ring that long will get out of the way of the other drums and sounds happening from stage, which enhances the perceived quietness. If you want to get these sounds, thick & coated drum heads with big, dark, thin cymbals is the way to go.
• Tune the bottom head of your snare drum super tight, and move to bigger snare wires (we use a 42 strand that I found on Amazon for $9). This will help you get a responsive snare sound out of light hits, and the extra snare wires help you get this response from anywhere on the drum at any volume. You can also use your snare wires to fine-tune the resonance length for the snare drum, choking it if you go too tight, and extending it pretty long if you keep them loose.
• If you're going to spend time, energy, and thought on quieting down your stick noise, PLEASE do the same for your kick drum beater. That is the often forgotten third stick. There are many solutions to this, including buying soft felt kick beaters, cutting an 'X' shape into the bottom of a tennis ball and sliding that over your normal kick beater, or gaff taping a towel around the kick beater. This helps you keep the aggressive feel your drummer might want to play with and that the drum deserves to resonate the way it is designed to without the extra noise and attack of a harder kick beater.
• Don't be afraid of using brushes, especially nylon or plastic brushes (Vater Poly Flex Brush). They can sound like hot rods with less of the noise that hot rods produce on their own. Additionally, there are even quieter sticks than hot rods, like the Vater Monster Brush line. These will have less cymbal definition with lighter hits (like pinging a ride), but if you can be creative enough to avoid pinging the ride cymbal, everything else will still sound right.
If you want to see all of these tips in action, check out the livestream of our college's convocation (while simultaneously ignoring the cues coming through the live stream. Whoops)
ruclips.net/user/liveO7YvqwBwK6Q?si=caJx4vfBkynMab8d&t=124
Hope these tips can completment JJ's and help some churches and worship drummers out there!
Asking a drummer to keep it below 85db is kinda crazy. lol im not going to fault you if it's working for you. By all means..... but as a drummer and sound engineer myself, enclosing our drums yielded absolutely incredible results. When im on the kit I dont even consider my loudness. I just play the way I play, and play for the songs. When im running front of house I have near complete control of the kit. This is a controversial hot take, but if I didnt have a cage and i were told to play quiet, I would find a different church to play at, or I wouldnt play at all. Some will judge that harshly, but only a drummer knows what it feels like to let that energy fly, and just worship in your playing. That's a huge means of connection to God for me. Cages are extremely beneficial and I recommend them wherever possible.
Yeah dude I agree with you on this. The music we play in modern day church is written with loud drums. Playing at 85 db isn’t gonna cut it, it’s gonna sound weird in a mix lol. Nothing beats going all out on the bridge of a huge worship anthem to the king of kings. One of my church’s campuses is in a room almost the exact same size as the church in this video. We do a full cage in there and actually are able to push the drums in the PA. Everyone can play pretty much as hard as they want. It sounds huge and zero complaints.
I don't understand the hate for drum cages honestly. As a sound guy, my best mixes have come from drums that were in a full enclosure cause I can really push them and shape them to how I want them to sound. And all of our drummers love it as well cause they don't feel like they have to play quieter or what not.
I agree with you
Money. Most of us don’t have it.
We ended up with an open top shield around our kit. That way you get some of the loudness control but still maintain the live feel into the room. That way we can renforce the kit with the pa instead of completely reproducing it through the pa.
Speaking as a drummer here - they separate you from the rest of the band. They also don't sound great (tiny room with plexiglass). Harder for the rest of the band to see the drummer. Harder to interact musically with a band and a drummer that you can't physically see all that well.
Probably due to the bad mixes that can come out of cages. A good plan and mixer can fix things.
Excellent video... thanks!
So cool to hear someone in worship-tech talking about The Lord!
Great video!!! I believe this resonates with small to mid-sized churches (probably 80% of us). Very practical.
The biggest factor in this issue really comes down to your drummer. If you have a skilled and disciplined drummer that can change their play style to fit the room, you can pretty much use an acoustic in any size room. If you're drummer isn't able to do that, save yourself the headaches and switch to electronic. Building your acoustic kit to fit the room matters too. If your room is 50x40, then maybe downsize to more of a cantina style kit. There's lots of factors that go into what's best for your situation. Good information in this video though!
As an Audio Engineer mixing sound for the Band. I'm in love with your Nuggets about Druming in the Church Arena Set-up during Praise & Worship Service.
He sounded like Binging with Babish. They have the same demeanor when explaining things. love it.
After decades of playing to the room, using rods, playing electronics, by FAR, my best results have been using Silent Sticks by Adoro. It's a rare Sunday that I don't get positive positive comments from members of the congregation about the sound.
Thanks for the recommendation. I'm going to try this.
Hi folks I have found your channel I have only been playing for almost 3 years. I play acoustic drums at church I use light rods and I gel the Tom's and snare but I also have a couple of large handkerchiefs over the snare. God bless watching from morayshire Scotland
In the future, if upgrades are possible, I would be interested in purchasing a dry series of cymbals like those in Meinl's line. Most of their cymbals tend to be thin, and the dry ones have a pleasing, lower volume sound that isn't harsh. They blend easily with the rest of the band, are easy to mix, and don't have a sustaining, high frequency ring. As KeyofGtutorials suggested, downsizing to a simpler drum kit with fewer toms, cymbals, and microphones could allow them to better incorporate baffles to reduce bleed into the vocal mics. With fewer pieces and mics, there would be less bleed overall. AWESOME VIDEO AS ALWAYS!!!!
This is so helpful - thank you guys for putting this together
You Guys are killing it with these videos! Awesome -Nathan
I am playing drums in church for more than 30 years (mostly ancient buildings with a lot of natural reverb) Its possible without cage but you might have to adapt playing style/equipment/sticks. (I am avoiding to use the crash cymbal for timekeeping 😊) And it is important to play for the audience/the band/for god and not for your personal proud! Be blessed! Greetings from Germany!
Super helpful! Trying to work on a context of a weekly setup and pack down in a school hall and some great tips to get us heading in the right direction
Watched this at 1.25x speed and he is fantastic. Such a clear communicator, so helpful. The ONLY thing I would've loved to see is him playing, some approved livestream / recording references for us to listen to!
As an audio engineer and a drummer, I see a fair share of bad information here. This may be a unique church with a quieter worship style or something else, I'm not sure. But drums for modern worship work well by being hit with decent velocity. If it is a bad acoustic environment then you need a drum enclosure OR electric drums.
I agree with the guy when he said "its not about you" But that doesn't seem like what he was modeling when he went back to acoustic drums based on "his" preference. There are too many work arounds both at the kit and at the console to make acoustic drums work for a church that want 80 to 85 db to be their max volume. 🤦♂️
Very creative sound design ideas. Great guy
I use a blue blast block for my cross stick on my snare for quieter stuff. Works great.
Full drum setup class cool ❤
Very interesting, but I was expecting a drum demo to hear how it sounds!
Another thought, consider plexiglass shielding around the kit - Make sure it's tall enough to minimize the cymbal volume... \m/
In the small/medium size church environment, I definitely prefer isolated drums - Zero worries/concerns, I just vibe out rocking the faith with total focus on tunes, worship, etc. - If you are going to stay with the large acoustic drum kit, at least get a set of Heartbeat Cymbals that will offer plenty of dynamics along with volume control - I endorse them and they are the best I've played in such settings - You've been there before but that room honestly needs a high quality electronic kit - Too stressful for all concerned in that space otherwise - And that's a huge kit, lol... \m/
Need this tip! Thank you sir!
Would have been nice to hear a clip of the kit being used in a worship set, to understand what this was all saying
A lot of churches quench the Holy Spirit! I think a drum shield would work in this environment! I also agree that dark and thinner cymbals would work better but everyone likes what they like, importantly a drummer should wear in ear monitors or hearing protection! But if The Holy Spirit wants you to play a certain way you have to flow with him!
This guy is talking all $$$ here 👍 👍 👍
YAY FINALY!!!
Drum cages dont have to be extremely expensive. Start with any plexiglass shield you can find and build a frame around it. You can use plywood or thick industrial foam hardboard as the outer shell. We used both. Built it ourselves and it looked great and functioned beautifully well. That said, If its budget in this case, go with SQ7 instead of Avantis and save $8k. Spend that on a beautiful cage and killer PA.
Love this man’s thoughts on drumming! Our church auditorium is nearly identical to theirs and I would love to hear an example of what their music sounds like in this context. Anybody know where I can find anything?
A room that size needs a full drum enclosure, bottom line … by not having it, you’re just trying to come up with all these ways to control volume, which you would not need, if you just get the right tool, which is an enclosure. Electronic drums would next best option, which have all the dynamics you need, but do have to have top of the line Roland VAD. This approach takes away touch and technique and tone from a drummer. Dowel drum drumsticks are not for controlling volume, they are a tone tool. A drummer is responsible for the volume, but it’s not fair to ask a drummer to play to such a room when there is a way to control it better with an enclosure. And I am both a drummer and mix engineer, thus experience from both sides of the stage.
Sabian FRX cymbals would be best for that environment with no cage or cymbal shields, and Aquarian focus x coated top and bottom for toms, response 2 coated for snare, Superkick/Regulator combo for kick, would be best heads in that situation too, if you insist on no shield, along with some snare weight dampeners and/or big fat snare drum muffle rings.
A drum shield would work for that size church to me a full enclosure could help but sometimes that could be too much! Also there are different types of churches, when The Holy Spirit hits you you just have to play in tune with him! If the Holy Spirit wants you to play a certain way you just have to flow with him! Lots of churches quench the Holy Spirit from moving!
thanks for this video please what is the name of the mic that you used for jj steward, thanks
That end fill was money.
Hey Church Front, I'm Interested to see the links in descriptions for the gear you mention in the videos you guys make.
Have fun
but what does it sound like...?
This video was well done and the info was well presented...Unfortunately I'm just not sold. If you had the option to mix a modern worship band in a room that size with and without an enclosure, you would choose to use the enclosure 10/10 times.
JJ sounds like he should intro on Ligonier ministries
drum demo?
Good stuff.
What device do you guys use to measure the dbs
If you’re this worried about how loud the drums are then play an electric kit or a cahone
Please, anything but Hot Rods 😂
This guy makes me think of Major Monogram from Phineas and Ferb.
Yesss forget the cages people 😊
Brushes, hot rods, dampening rings, and skillful playing.
Those are the wrong cymbals if you are looking to bring down the drums. Buy thin bigger cymbals and use 7a sticks if you want to bring down volume
I disagree, YES if I played this kit I would totally switch out the crashes for my BIG and Thin Crash/Rides, however...some church drummers just don't necessarily want the "MODERN WORSHIP" sound! So yeah I would have to hear their services and their worship band.
@@hiptoalieu I agree I just can see how loud these would be if they were going for that CCM sound. I did some research on their church and the band plays very conservative
Get your drummers to clean the drum set! Im sneezing from all the dust its collected lol
A&H Avantis in a church of 250 is W I L D.....
seems like a tremendous overkill....
Maybe they are being future proof 🤷🏾♂️
One more trick is instead of brushes to use fingers.
Seriously, how it’s possible to make a good sound with brushes?
I have smaller room and drums with cage without problems.
Small kit, big thin cymbals, sound baffling around the building. That’s my answer. Also, learn to hold back a little!
I play drums.
Most Churches should switch to an Electric one!
No
the use of Superoir Drummer 3 covers many sins
the issue I have w/ this video are those dusty cymbals!🤦🏾♂️
Clean those cymbals my guy!🧹😂
Bro knows exactly what he’s talking about, holy cow
You all talk too much, but no examples of how it really sounds