Front squats might not stack up in regards to pure hypertrophy of the quads compared to the latest and greatest in exquisitely engineered exercise equipment technology, but for a lot of lifters, they're absolutely viable. If you use a home gym, a hotel gym, or a bunch of Tiktok kiddos are swarming the machines, they're quite possibly the best option. I don't love front squats, but I've benefited from them a lot and I think they're a nice tool to have in your exercise variable toolbox. Maybe they take slightly longer to learn, but we're not looking for an 8 week transformation here, we lift for LIFE. Sometimes content creators target optimal so much they forget what is practical. While it may have some downsides that contribute to many disliking them, I don't see it being any worse for quad activation compared to high or low bar, and EMG studies confirm this. So that statement was truly just summoned from the ether; logical sounding but untrue. I'd wager a study comparing the movements for long term muscle growth would probably see very similar results. So, not terrible. They work the ability to brace, something almost everyone has to work on, myself included. They target upper back strength and size, which few people have too much of. I've seen them firsthand improve posture in clients as well, which in the modern age is sometimes needed. They force you to stay upright and thus keep the movement in the quads. A lot of the comments on RPs video were defending this movement for a reason. I didn't cherry pick the comments I used, the majority of them were quite positive with regards to front squats. It's just as safe as any other squat variation when progressed reasonably and I strongly object to Mike's statements with regard to injury risk. You can summon up injury risk for literally ANY MOVEMENT IMAGINEABLE and many channels have built their following doing just that! We should judge a movement when it's done correctly, not butchered. Overall Renaissance Periodization still puts out excellent content, and I've personally enjoyed their content for years, but this particular video didn't sit well with me, and I didn't view their take on it as reasonable or nuanced. I understand that to a certain extent this is "the RUclips game" which most big channels partake in, but let's remember why we started creating content in the first place. I'm not saying front squats are the best quad exercise. They're far from perfect. I'm taking a much easier position to defend. I'm just saying they're not terrible.
I agree. Front squats are not terrible. I think of them as an entry-level Joel Seedman lift. After perfecting them, a person can advance to single-legged Bosu ball squats. And remember to only go to 90 degrees max.
Thus the Front Squat saga debate begin. Now waiting for at least: a 2 hour response video from NH, multiple response videos from BB and reaction video from Dr. Milo.
I'm sold on front squats. Not only do they make you better at life, but I have a messed up neck, and for some reason in some round about way which I cannot figure out, regular front squatting eliminates symptoms of whatever the fuck is going on with my neck. When you can't afford to get neck injuries checked out something that eliminates all symptoms is a must.
I'm so glad you made this video. Totally agree. We've favoured front-loaded squats (both goblet and front squats) with thousands of people for over a decade. No injuries or shoulder problems. Plus, one of the studies you referenced recommends front squats as a safer squat alternative. With online clients, front-loaded squats encourage WAY better technique. When we ask a beginner client to send a video of a goblet squat, front squat, and a back squat. Nine times out of ten, the goblet and front squats will be almost perfect, and the back squat will be a train wreck. For some extra credibility, I was speaking with Greg Nuckols about squats a couple of years ago. He recommended front squats (and safety-bar squats) as being the safest, encouraging the best technique, and stimulating the most muscle growth. Of note, he mentioned that they aren't just great for the upper back, they're also great for the serratus anterior, improving shoulder health and stability.
Heel-elevated front squats also played an instrumental role in fixing my right hip flexor pain. The deeper range of motion, the compromised position it puts you in helped improve my mobility and I've been able to back squat pain free since including them.
Front squatting already has less of an ankle mobility demand than high bar back squats - because the weight is in front of you, your center of mass moves forward, and therefore your knees don’t have to go as far in front of the toes. Arguably, getting a position where you can “relax” into a deeper position is better for mobility rather than a stance where you have to “force” yourself into a position.
@@danielfoley6839 ifl it depends on what you're front squatting for. the main reason i front squat is *not* for ankle mobility, but as an excellent quad movement with relatively less lower back fatigue than a back squat. Heel Elevation allows me to squat even MORE upright making it even less fatiguing on da back while making sure my legs and upper back get absolutely torched.
I remember hip flexor pain during squatting 6 months or so into the gym, it was annoying as hell and honestly I don't even know when exactly and why it went away. I figured maybe it had something to do with starting hanging knee raises and decline sit ups later on (both weighted). I love the front squat even though I am a little frightened of stagnating as I did for quite a while when backsquatting. Stagnation is destruction for motivation, especially when you really can't see why it's happening.
I've tried to love front squats because they look cool and everyone I've seen with big front squats also have huge quads. My experience with them was basically as Dr.Mike described. They felt like more of a balancing act than a quad exercise. I get a way crazier burn and pump in my quads with high bar squats with much less fatigue. Front squats also make my shoulders feel like they're going to snap. I don't see the point when you can just place the bar on your back and it becomes 1000x better. If you don't have fancy machines and you want squat alternatives then you can do sissy squats, split squats, etc...
It might seem pointless to someone like you, however, to someone like me, it is the easiest way to hit a deep squat. I have improved my high bar technique to a point im happy with, but going for, say 315 x 12, it all ends up being very hard on my lower back (even when in the video it looks like my form never regressed). My biggest criticism with front squat is that if you try and max out, it might feel like you wanna pass out, also, I can’t get a huge breath in before starting the descent like in back squat.
@@Jonathan-sk9de if your using a clean grip, try and point your sternum up aggressively to get a bigger breath. the other grips are much less stable for the upper back so they will limit your ribcage expansion
8:57 - A point I'd like to add as a 5'5 lifter, being short makes it a bit easier but it still comes down to proportions. I've a shorter torso, longer femurs, and a relatively shorter tibia. I can squat almost ATG with high bar but I still have to lean forward, making it hard to target the quads primarily. I hope front squats solve that.
One thing Mike didn't touch on is front squats can be good for people who get low back pain with high bar squats, too. I have long legs and short torso. Keeping bar over mid foot with high bar means I need to go almost sumo, or lean forward so much my low back hurts. With front squat, more of that load is easier to shift to my core/abs. Edit: LOL as soon as I typed that, it came up in this video. Edit 2: I can use less weight to get more quad stimulus, which is something Dr. Mike is usually all about. Hurts my ego to front squat low weight vs back squat big weight, but my goal is growing quads without hurting my knees or back.
@@whwhywhywhywhywhywhy wrong i squat 10 reps with 315 (just did it yesterday ATG) literally no problem with doing it on the mid foot, it's literally how you are supposed to squat with perfect form. im not sure why this comment section is full of weird advice.
@@PEEERRRR Right? But yeah, I can keep it over mid foot. But my low back gets fatigued before my quads break a sweat. If I try to push to the point of my quads getting any kind of work out, I have to sacrifice my lumbar spine... and nah, I'll stick to leg extensions, split squats, and front squats.
@claytonslade2366 interesting... a guy at my gym front squats 405 but he's also 7feet 300pounds and not obese. Other than him I see no one front squatting or anyone online unless they train for Olympic lifting.
dr mike is goatie good, he is extremely knowledgeable but on some of his opinions he depends on almost pure 'on paper' knowledge. its good so that we have disagreements against good top tier ftiness youtubers it means we have much left to learn.
yep ofcourse, even you had a video regarding fitness topics you were wrong about and there was like a lot of them, natural hypertrophy and alex have done stuff like that too so I hope dr mike follows suit.@@GVS
His pull-up advice blew up my lats in a matter of 8 weeks (they were the greatest 8 weeks of gains of my life) but you know even though he is very smart and has a lot of good advice nobody is infallible… I found doing rows ultra strict like he sometimes makes bodybuilders who come workout with him do didn’t do as much for my back as a lil bit of body english but still being stricter than 90% of gym goers
@@GVSim gonna guess part of it is he is built to highbar all day, and another part of it is he is just used to training in elite gyms with ass to grass hack/pendulum/leg presses/belt squats and hasn’t needed to just make the shit in front of him work no matter what for a while
i love how you supported your arguments with scientific papers, peer opinion, and your coaching experience. unlike mike in this case tbh front squats look damn sick so i was gonna keep doing them anyway but genuinely such a great job on this response !!
He performed confirmation bias. Nothing impressive about it. He then used a tired argument about hunching over for computer usage leading to a lack of shoulder mobility, with zero evidence. Then made claims of fear mongering, with no evidence yet again to support his opposing claims.
I think this very representative of one of the very few gripes I have with Dr Mike’s/RP’s training philosophy. They seem to really be averse to what they describe as “interference effects”, which a lot of other people might say is “bonus volume”. It makes total sense from the pure science based angle, where you want to be able to exactly pinpoint training variables. Having to figure out whether your upper back is fatigued from upper back work vs front squats and adjusting effective volumes accordingly is harder to do with a pure science based approach as opposed to a more mixed approach. I absolutely love my front squats, but I’d be damned if I don’t do them with a slow eccentric and pause like Dr Mike does his squats.
First time I tried front squats, I felt so uncomfortable with all that weight on my shoulders, that I gave up after a single set of 10 reps. A year or so later, I gave them another try and this time I was determined to force myself to like them. So after persisting for a couple of weeks, the movement started feeling very natural and before long they became my favourite squat variation. My only concern is that after 2-3 years of practicing them consistently, I hit a wall, where the limiting factor is not my quad strength/stamina anymore but my core strength/ability to brace and I can't break through.
Dr. Mike never said they won’t build your quads. He said there are better movements in a hypertrophy context that don’t have some of the drawbacks. Obviously you’ll grow if you train a muscle.
I was actually baffled when I saw this video. I changed to front squats as my main squat and I dont regret it (I have very mobile wrists, hips and knees so learning the movement wasnt to difficult, but I still have a lot to learn). Unfortunately I had an operation due to a burst appendix so I need to take a lot of time off the gym after coming home fron hospital, but I will sure go back to performing the front squat when I am able to train again.
Fear mongering in the fitness community on youtube is a huge problem. i am a few months into my lifting journey and i swore off doing RDL's because some youtuber i used to watch in the early days scared me that they would destroy my lower back. Tried it for the first time this week (form was subpar but back was on fire afterwards). I regret not doing them sooner. Same goes for behind-the-neck press. It's the only OHP I can do with no pain and i love that movement
I'm actually so freaking happy to hear someone calling out Dr. Mike! I love all the technical nuances that he discusses in his videos, but lately I've felt that he's put a lot of stuff out there that is not up to the standard that I held for his channel's content.
I exclusively front squatted for 1,5 years due to rehab reasons. I went a bit heavier on my back squat this week and it felt solid. Front squatting definitely made my back squat "squattier", as Bald Omni Man likes to say.
After getting back to front squats a month ago I can say 2 things that might be helpful: 1) Front squat work my abs in a way no other form of squatty motion does. Once I got them back, my obliques were feeling it. 2) Because of Gainz, my front rack is significantly worst than before but using straps for the front squats aloud me to get in a great front rack position, one that I’m not able to archive without the external help of the straps. There are some oly weightlifters explaining how to used them on YT
Why train abs when you can do front squats, romanian deadlifts, and dumbbell rows… Take those within a rep of failure and they are better than 99% of ab workouts
I tried to get an olympic lifter style front rack at some point but decided that fucc it, I'll just zombie squat and I've been a happy front squatter ever since.
Completely agree. And I'm going to say something unpopular. Front squats are better than back squats for the majority of people. You use less weight and can reach deeper positions. You also work on your balance and stability and put less pressure on your back. I personally prefer them over back squats.
For someone whose goal is hypertrophy, I believe for most viewers of rp and Geoff channel, why would I want to work on stability and balance? I'll rather do back squat than front squats for reasons Dr mike listed. But I'll rather do pendulum or hack squat over back squats lol
Stability and balance work help you avoid injuries that would take away weeks or months of training. You should incorporate that kind of work on an accessory day at least@@heibaimao
my best quad growth came from a phase of doing front squats 2x weekly. I have an SSB which in theory would be better, but it tries to fold over your thorasic spine (and neck), so its basically the same problem as with a front squat. you just dont lose the bar if you start to hinge.
I've always sort of disliked doing front squats, but this actually inspired me to give them another try 💪 So completely agree with you here Geoff. In fact, if an exercise feels “hard” or “uncomfortable” due to poor mobility or posture, it’s probably the exercise you should be doing. Every movement cannot be isolated and 100% optimal for the hypertrophy of a certain muscle, sometimes you gotta work a bit on the "whole package".
No lol ur just adding fatigue and taking focus away from other muscles. If those muscles are weak, u should probably add specifications to ur program. But hey if ppl wanna do more work for less have at it
@@ChiefVince117 So what is your point - to only do isolations? The point of a front squat is to work your quads, core, upper back and maybe posture. How's that taking focus away from other muscles, if those are the areas you want to improve? I have a separate quad day and a hamstring/glute day anyway, so doing a quad-focused squat on my quad day makes perfect sense. I still sumo deadlift too, because I find it to be a great glute exercise. Boohoo, I guess I must be really fatigued. People are so afraid of fatigue that it’s getting absolutely ridiculous. Fatigue can be managed and if your programming is smart at all, you're not squatting or deadlifting every day anyway.
@@RR_9 yeah buddy idk what part of the "whole package" ur working on during front Squats, but I'd bet money it's doing nothing for there development. And what muscle group can't u isolate that front Squats hit? Nothing besides increased fatigue for no gain.
@@ChiefVince117 So basically you’re saying that all compound movements are useless? What do you do for quads, leg extensions only? And I guess for hamstrings, leg curls only? The romanian deadlift must be very “non-optimal” because it works some of your back too. Oh and I guess bench pressing is out, because not only it works your chest, it also works your triceps and delts. Yikes, so much fatigue! I never said the front squat should be the only thing to do on a quad day. But you don’t have to be an exercise scientist to know that some kind of squat variation is a good idea. Pick whichever variation you feel in your quads best.
@@RR_9 dude read what u said, but not all compound lifts are equal some are more optimal. All I said was that ur reasoning was silly. Front Squats do not train "the whole package" better than back Squats and if ur stabilizer muscles are weak there are better ways too train.
TLDR: Injured shoulder and bicep front squatting due to poor form but front squat allows me to train quads without back pain via previous back injury. I recommend for people with back injuries that still want to grow quads. Also dont be lazy, do mobility and rehab. Tale of Woe [Disclaimer: Most useful for beginners, smoll legs, and injured folk. If you're just curious go ahead as well. Otherwise if you read the TLDR you good to go] I injured my right shoulder and bicep failing a front squat in 2022. The scene: 24 year old M year 5 of serious lifting. Lean ~180lbs. Last set of a 3x8 225lbs. Poor wrist flexibility so I use the arms crossed position. Lower back injury from earlier in the year impedes on lifts, have not started using a belt yet as a bandaid solution. Knees cooked because I have very poor ankle flexibility and remarkably stiff hips. Prior to my set muscle mommies pull up on the rack next to me so I feel emboldened to complete the set despite lower back pain. Set 3 rep 7 I was "finito" but had to push through to impress the muscle mommies that I will never talk to, that dont care about my meager front squat and baby quads. The bar slid down from only my right delt, to my right bicep and instead of dropping the weight (no safety) I tried to keep it up and felt a pulling sensation in my bicep, finished the rep and racked. No obvious deformity in my bicep a little redness in the area but I could not tell if that was from the bar sliding or a new injury. Subsequent push and pull days I started to feel a weakness and discomfort in my right shoulder and bicep but I trained through it. Maybe a year and a half later with a CT of my right shoulder done showing there is no strain (I question the use of a CT, ought to have been an MRI but my provider was very stubborn about my musculoskeletal complaints). 2024 I still feel weakness in my R bicep and R shoulder. There used to be pain in my R shoulder near my right trapezius/ scapular area running to roughly my R acromion. That had lasted for almost a year and some change. However the weakness in my right bicep is sustained. No pain. Some of my lifts have been affected such as weighted pull ups, bench, bicep curls, anything requiring my right bicep or right shoulder stability in some capacity. I have not sought out a sports medicine provider or a physical therapist but I do use what I have seen here and there from squat university and other resources to rehab my suspected injuries. CONCLUSION: So while I agree with Dr. Mike on the potential for injury for front squat, there is a baseline for injury in any lift especially if done improperly/ form breakdown. In my case it was avoidable for many reasons: 1.) I had already been dealing with a lower back injury that made it difficult to do any squatting or hinging movements, so no lower back injury = probably no front squat injury. 2.) I did not have any safeties so I could not properly fail the lift. 3.) My form was breaking down causing my upper back to round and the bar to roll forward, so improper form/ form breakdown as Geoffrey mentions in the video. Front squats continue to be a squatting movement that I am able to do so NOW with minimal if any lower back pain partially because the pain has diminished over time and secondarily I suspect because of the more upright posture front squats require of you and so its one of the better stimulating exercises for my quads. Also my as previously stated my knees are cooked in part from the poor ankle flexibility which is bypassed a little with the biomechanics of front squatting. I can successfully complete more sets of front squats especially as compared to back sqaut and leg press, I feel the quads being worked without the lower back being the limiting factor. I appreciate Geoffrey for offering a different more nuanced perspective on front squats. Hit 285x5 recently on front squats so ya boy is still progressing on front squats despite the setbacks which is to say to the injured ones out there keep at it and train smarter. Buy shoes with elevated heels to squat for those with poor ankle mobility, def helps.
I started front squatting because of a shoulder/back injury and it allowed me to squat without injury. I just had to learn to use a lot less weight because you need more stabilizing.
Lesson learned: don't lift unsafely just to impress the muscle mommies you're not gonna even talk to and probably won't talk to you either cuz you're both scared of each other lol
Thanks for your common sense interpretation of this video. I am 53 and a novice lifter. I had lumbar back pain due to arthritis and spinal stenosis. I worked out in my basement for the last 6 months. Due to shoulder injuries back squats were painful. I bought a front squat harness and have been using it to front squat. 6 months into lifting and all my back pain is gone. I credit it to the front squat and trap bar deadlift.
Thank you so much for talking about this. I watched Dr. Mike's video and I'm pretty new to lifting. When I started to learn how to squat I was doing goblet squats with a kettlebell and I tried to do backsquats but I just can't do it. I can't get the depth and I really struggle with the wrists and grip with backsquats. But frontsquats really work for me. After watching the video it turned me off even wanting to do squats but then I thought if it works for me why not. And also it's still a squatting movement and I think any form of a squatting movement where you can progressively overload is surely a good thing.
True! i hate when i really like someones content, and teachings , but then there comes one video just from the algorithm and clicks , and my admiration and respect goes down the drain ....
The more experience I gain, whether it be vicariously through others or myself, the more times I find myself being confused by Mike's viewpoints and the way he delivers them. I had all the same issues as Mike mentioned with the front squat, but that doesn't make it a bad exercise categorically. It was just bad for me at the time.
I fuckin love front squats they help me so much with my manual labor job I have to clear (sometimes very large) tree branches out. While most of my cooworkers either can’t pick them up, or maybe “Jefferson curl” it up (😬), I can put it in the crook of my elbow and zercher squat it up. I got that strength from front squats CrossFit MFs will do 20 reps of clean and jerks with ungodly form and call it “functional strength” and then shit on tried and true movements like the front squat. If that ain’t “functional strength” I don’t know what is. I’m also tall and so I hate the way back squats force me into hinging. I already do good mornings
Find Mike’s old videos to be very useful, his channel has got to a size now where unfortunately the new ones are very regular and can be hit and miss. Important to remember that even with all his credentials he isn’t always right, like anyone.
Makes no sense his content now is better than ever. His old content was all infront of a whiteboard and low production value. you're just used to watching content creators that put no effort into audio/video and editting like Geoffrey here who is lazy and half asses everything
@@PEEERRRR The thing you can't seem to grasp is that Geoff does all of his videos by himself, while Mike has a big team. Also his videos HAVE objectively gotten worse, with less practical information and more fun bullshit. Clearly you just watch his videos with your brain off, since all you care about is production value and comedy. Please take Mike's dick out of your mouth, so you can actually make a good argument next time.
I started using front squats as an accessory to my back squat after seeing training video of Mike Tuchscherer and Greg Nuckols using them. I’ve PR my last two peak cycles. I used straps like Tuchscherer. Their fun and they give my upper back a little break.
Mike has a lot of good content but I think his channel is trying to appeal to teenagers and early-20s males, judging by the crude humor and emphasis on getting jacked as fast as possible. From a marketing perspective, it makes sense, but will probably bias a lot of what he has to say.
I think throwing in front squats every once in a while can be a check on mobility. Being able to do a front squat is a big indicator of good mobility health. Need healthy ankles and shoulders.
I use the front squat after listening to Arnold I am 6'5" and the regular squat I either leaned forward to much or I couldn't go as deep. I think what feels best and your body dimensions makes alot of difference. It's difficult for use to listen to little guys like Mike on certain exercises they are good because they don't see pass short guy style training.
Thanks for making this. I laid off front squatting for a bit after I watched some of Dr Mike’s video. Got a badly impinged hip, and some sciatica that shifts between the left and right hip mostly on the right side tho (desk jobs suck man). Cannot do back squats to save my life, it sends sharp pain down my right hip badly. I can front squat tho, still have a little Hip pain, but nothing compared to the back squat. The front squat helped with reducing a lot of that pain. The pain slowly started coming back after I stopped doing it consistently. Earlier today I was thinking to myself “I really should go back to front squats, those helped a lot” then I saw this video, and It was a blessing. Thanks man.
Platz front squats are superb for building the quads. The amount of tension you get is just nuts since a larger portion of the tension is shifted to the knee extensors since you can't really hinge. As you referenced, there's inherently less systemic fatigue since the absolute loads are less, hence less spinal loading. Another benefit, if you have imbalances, is that hip shift isn't really a thing on front squats. You can also get around shoulder/wrist mobility issues by either doing zombie squats (less stable, I don't really like them) or my preferred method, attaching your lifting straps to the bar and holding on to the long strap portion. This puts the bar perfectly in the front rack without crushing your throat, and makes grinding a lot easier since there's no shoulder or wrist pain. You can also very easily dump the weight if you fail without risking a wrist injury.
My glutes and adductors somehow still seem to be the prime movers in platz squats. Whenever I don't have access to a leg extension machine my quads are on the backburner
You make such a good point about equipment availability. I worked out in my home gym for the past 3 years, and i did not have access to a squat rack. I was forced to do front squats by cleaning the weight. Ironically, i made better gains in my legs during this period than when i had a commercial gym
Front squats are amazing, really! They gave me a lot of fun and pain learning them because it took some months to do it properly besides I was high bar squatting 120kg x 2, I couldn't front squat more than 30kg x 4 because of my mobility and wrists hurted a lot, but doing these it got better and 2 months later I got my PR to 100kg x 3. Also, I used to struggle reaching parallel on high bar squats, but, first time I tried these, ATG was easily achieved and I felt really comfortable in the position! Edit: also they look cool af imo, I always wanted to learn to do them lol
Damn. My high bar squat Is too in that range (best being 120x2 and 110x6, not ATG but below parallel), but I am very glute dominant. So I have been trying to do front squats for a while and I JUST CAN'T. I love the challenge they pose and I definetly feel my quads better but I can't even perform 8 reps with 60kg without the bar falling off. I use the "arms crossed" front rack cause my wrist get WRECKED doing oly style rack. Should I build up from a lower weight?
@@Luca_S_8 maybe you just have long femurs man, so it may be harder for you to keep that upright torso and keeping that bar on your shoulders. I would do zombie squats! Geoff has a video on them. I would do them until I feel comfortable and then move to front squats, I think that's a solid progression and you would properly learn to keep that chest up. Good luck mate!
Imho front squats are inferior. The only benefit of front squats is that is forces you to squat in knee- or quad-dominant manner, thats true. But in return you get discomfort in holding the bar on your shoulders (yes it doesnt cause injuries, I agree), upper back muscles limitation (its too taxing and annoying to be a feature, its rather a bug) and less flexibility in choosing weight on a bar cause doing low reps high weight is very unstable. This balance between bar rolling down and bar rolling up that it literally chokes you is giga annoying imho. Also yes in front squats we can squat deeper cause torso is more upright and hip socket conflict (or whatever its called) is happening slightly later, but this benefit is not worth it. In back squat however you can either squat knee- or hip-dominant, depending on your technique. This video made me think that GVS thinks that back squat (even high bar) is a lot more hip dominant, but I might be wrong. You can do less weight more reps or more weight less reps as you like. Its a lot more comfortable to hold a bar on a back and you can focus on actually doing squats and working your quads (or hips) and almost forget about upper body. At the end of the day your quad dont know what type of squat you are doing, cause its just extending the knee. In both squats we are trying to keep center of mass more or less slightly above the middle of the feet so quads actually dont feel much difference (thats why EMG is similar I think), so the only difference really in both squats is in the upper body and mostly how we hold the bar. Is this discomfort of holding the bar on your shoulders instead of holding it on your back worth it? Hell no.
I think Mike fully subscribes to the “maximum stability for maximum output” camp and just assumes most other “less stable, less ability for power output” variations are inferior. I find it fascinating when sports scientists think this way.
I did a 405 front squat when I was training it last year. I think it’s great for the dead and squat like u said. Upper back demands is a pro. It’s more difficult variation for me than SSB. I do the cross arm style which Mike didn’t like. Could also use two straps for a modified front rack style but meh
I just added front squat to my routine when Dr Mike uploaded that video, made me second guess myself. But then I actually front squatted and it felt so much more responsive for me, I LOVE back squat, but I think front squat is superior for keeping me disciplined about my form and focus on the lift. Front squatting makes me feel as powerful as when I OHP, so that is a huge bonus.
Really great content. I also commented on RP's video supporting for Front Squats. If I may suggest something, you can probably invest on a better microphone or minimize room echo. I feel like your audio quality is really poor relative to the content quality.
I have to agree, I am glad you made this video. I’ve been consistently front squatting for about 2 years and they have been amazing. My quads have gotten way bigger and I have never encountered any of the issues that he mentioned. I also worked as a personal trainer for a while and I always taught my clients front squats before back squats because otherwise people try to hinge a back squat. None of my clients ever had any problems with them either so I was really thrown off when I saw this video as I love RP and I watch them all of the time.
Lately, Dr. Mike has chosen some weird hills to die on. Front squats is one, then that one bizarre video were he was arguing that extremely low body fat % is not unhealthy. Maybe front squats are just one tool in the box and not a one-size-fits-all and maybe being stripped of all bodyfat is not healthy because there's no one who maintains it for any significant amount of time unless they're literally sick.
I'll never be able to put my gratitude towards front squats into words. I had a few year period where back squats would hurt my lower back, thus forcing me to lay off them. The only alternative where I could load respectable weight was the front squat. Yes, there is leg press, hack squat, etc. I don't care. Nothing beats free weights. I would not have been able to squat for a very long time if not for the front squat. Not only that, but when I did get past the back pain, my back squat form was impeccable from the movement pattern the front squat had drilled into me for years. Forever grateful such a useful movement exists.
12:00 this is really encouraging to listen to. I went to a gym that was both cheap and had a ton of machines, but it was always full of people, to the point that I had to wait to even start doing squats or doing them as a second/third exercise, just because both squat racks were occupied. And no, I didn't go at the hour everybody goes, which is around 7-8pm, I'm talking about going both at 8AM and even at 2-3PM, it was full all day. Recently I found another gym that was around the same price, it was closer to my house, and it is always really empty (a friend told me, I went and damn that was true). It has no smith machine, nor hacksquat, let alone any complex machine. I think the only machines it has are cables and a leg press, that's all. Hearing this from someone who really has the experience encourages me to stick to that gym.
It took me many many months to get comfortable with front squats but they actually give me a quad pump, which back squats never did. Thanks for an alternative viewpoint.
My only gripe with front squats is sometimes they feel like they're choking you. With that said the only "injury" that I've had from them is some powerbar knurl marks around my clavicles from over-enthusiastically re-racking the bar after hitting a PR. Whoops! There is a bit of truth to your arm proportions and how the front rack feels. Biceps start getting in the way, too. But...just use straps around the bar... or do 'em zombie style. Better gains guaranteed if you're mumbling 'mmmmmm braaains' during your sets. 😁
i do a lot of low bar squats due to powerlifting. i’ve been doing front squats as an accessory for the past 4-5 months and love them for exactly what you said! they force you to not hinge your squat so hard and stay properly upright, and actually bring quads in to compensate for low bar kinda throwing them away lmao. imo, high bar back squat is a little too similar of a movement pattern to low bar, and there is a nonzero sad ego component of doing heel elevated high bar back squats with like 60-70% of my low bar weight. heel elevated front squats are different enough to the ol brain that the lower weight feels like less of a bummer
I saw the RP video in question and rolled my eyes at it. I think I had been at the gym supersetting 5x5s of back and front squats at 70 KG (not much for the back squat... but that front rack position tho). But then, at 44-years old, I decided to take up Olympic weightlifting for my mid-life crisis.
I had to switch to front squats using a front squat harness due to an injury. I love them! The hard part was learning the technique and making the necessary adjustments to my posture. I definitely feel my quads working harder than when I was high bar squatting.
Great nuanced answer to Dr. Mikes unusual poor quality video! I have been doing front squats for a while now to fix my posture and it works quite good. Well done. All the best.
We went from the only compounds no isolation era to the only machines/isolation era. While this lift won’t directly contribute to growing certain parts (like the upper back) it can be used as a tool to sneak some indirect extra volume and as an accessory / variation to improve upon other squat variations! Just my take - everything movement makes sense for specific people/goals when applied correctly
I'm glad Mike made this hot take. It makes for enjoyable and interesting discussion, it would suck if everybody was always on the same side (which they never are, if it ever appears to be that way then some only pretend or lay low as to not experience others antipathy, which is very common unfortunately). This is also the reason why I don't mind Athleanx takes on exercises like upright rows and leg extensions much, it's great to have completely different lookouts on the same thing, it's up to everyone to form ones own opinion by experimenting and researching. I like front squats a lot, back squat makes me bend forward uncomfortably much, front squats feel much nicer from the get go and I've been progressing quite well.
I suppose it's good to start a discussion, but most people who saw that video won't see the rebuttals. Same with any athlean-x video that has millions of views, the layperson sees that and doesn't ever go beyond that, so they avoid movements for no reason. I don't think "starting the conversation" in general justifies misinformation.
Fronts are my go-to when I’m dealing with injuries. Low back injury, knee injury, adductor injury… front squats have been more merciful on pretty much everything. I do find that I start to hate them when I go for more than 5 reps, but that’s fine since I can still fuck with high-rep high bar squats (had to drop heavy high bars due to recent injury) on a different day. It’s fun to see my technique getting better and better.
I'm tall and have a love for ATG squatting, which doesn't go hand in hand. The first time I tried front squats with clean nad position, I felt like it doubled my T, made me a real man. Hard, but so rewarding. A couple of months later I saw a video of Klokov front squatting some crazy weight and it only solidifird my conviction. Front squats forever.
Front squats might not stack up in regards to pure hypertrophy of the quads compared to the latest and greatest in exquisitely engineered exercise equipment technology, but for a lot of lifters, they're absolutely viable. If you use a home gym, a hotel gym, or a bunch of Tiktok kiddos are swarming the machines, they're quite possibly the best option. I don't love front squats, but I've benefited from them a lot and I think they're a nice tool to have in your exercise variable toolbox. Maybe they take slightly longer to learn, but we're not looking for an 8 week transformation here, we lift for LIFE.
Sometimes content creators target optimal so much they forget what is practical.
While it may have some downsides that contribute to many disliking them, I don't see it being any worse for quad activation compared to high or low bar, and EMG studies confirm this. So that statement was truly just summoned from the ether; logical sounding but untrue. I'd wager a study comparing the movements for long term muscle growth would probably see very similar results. So, not terrible.
They work the ability to brace, something almost everyone has to work on, myself included. They target upper back strength and size, which few people have too much of. I've seen them firsthand improve posture in clients as well, which in the modern age is sometimes needed. They force you to stay upright and thus keep the movement in the quads.
A lot of the comments on RPs video were defending this movement for a reason. I didn't cherry pick the comments I used, the majority of them were quite positive with regards to front squats. It's just as safe as any other squat variation when progressed reasonably and I strongly object to Mike's statements with regard to injury risk. You can summon up injury risk for literally ANY MOVEMENT IMAGINEABLE and many channels have built their following doing just that! We should judge a movement when it's done correctly, not butchered.
Overall Renaissance Periodization still puts out excellent content, and I've personally enjoyed their content for years, but this particular video didn't sit well with me, and I didn't view their take on it as reasonable or nuanced. I understand that to a certain extent this is "the RUclips game" which most big channels partake in, but let's remember why we started creating content in the first place.
I'm not saying front squats are the best quad exercise. They're far from perfect. I'm taking a much easier position to defend. I'm just saying they're not terrible.
"Sometimes content creators target optimal so much they forget what is practical."
Based gvs quote right here
BASED
I agree. Front squats are not terrible. I think of them as an entry-level Joel Seedman lift. After perfecting them, a person can advance to single-legged Bosu ball squats. And remember to only go to 90 degrees max.
Good call. Good video. 🎯
They are the best quad exercise. I like Dr. Mike alright. But he gotta take this L
Thus the Front Squat saga debate begin. Now waiting for at least: a 2 hour response video from NH, multiple response videos from BB and reaction video from Dr. Milo.
Also maybe a rant video from Alex and "It's time to stop spreading lies! My legs are getting too big doing front squats" from Bald Omni Man
Alan Thrall joins in with "do whatever, man, just workout" spread to half an hour with some flashbacks to his time in the military.
Okay but what does Jason Blaha think?
Dr. Mike is an expert in overcomplicating everything that isn't complicated.
Front squats enjoyer checking in. My quads are okayish (and I don't even use them for BBing purposes anyway).
Watch those front squat shoulder injuries, man. If you ever want a respectable bench press you better stop😏😏😏
@@GVS 😂😂😂
@GVS uncle freak a 500 lb bench enjoyer:
@@PBJG5 he knows lol. 500lbs+ front squat enjoyer too though
I'm sold on front squats. Not only do they make you better at life, but I have a messed up neck, and for some reason in some round about way which I cannot figure out, regular front squatting eliminates symptoms of whatever the fuck is going on with my neck. When you can't afford to get neck injuries checked out something that eliminates all symptoms is a must.
I'm so glad you made this video. Totally agree.
We've favoured front-loaded squats (both goblet and front squats) with thousands of people for over a decade. No injuries or shoulder problems. Plus, one of the studies you referenced recommends front squats as a safer squat alternative.
With online clients, front-loaded squats encourage WAY better technique. When we ask a beginner client to send a video of a goblet squat, front squat, and a back squat. Nine times out of ten, the goblet and front squats will be almost perfect, and the back squat will be a train wreck.
For some extra credibility, I was speaking with Greg Nuckols about squats a couple of years ago. He recommended front squats (and safety-bar squats) as being the safest, encouraging the best technique, and stimulating the most muscle growth. Of note, he mentioned that they aren't just great for the upper back, they're also great for the serratus anterior, improving shoulder health and stability.
Thanks for chiming in and well said!
Heel-elevated front squats also played an instrumental role in fixing my right hip flexor pain. The deeper range of motion, the compromised position it puts you in helped improve my mobility and I've been able to back squat pain free since including them.
that defeats on of the main reasons for front sqauting( anlke mobility)
Front squatting already has less of an ankle mobility demand than high bar back squats - because the weight is in front of you, your center of mass moves forward, and therefore your knees don’t have to go as far in front of the toes. Arguably, getting a position where you can “relax” into a deeper position is better for mobility rather than a stance where you have to “force” yourself into a position.
@@danielfoley6839 ifl it depends on what you're front squatting for. the main reason i front squat is *not* for ankle mobility, but as an excellent quad movement with relatively less lower back fatigue than a back squat. Heel Elevation allows me to squat even MORE upright making it even less fatiguing on da back while making sure my legs and upper back get absolutely torched.
I remember hip flexor pain during squatting 6 months or so into the gym, it was annoying as hell and honestly I don't even know when exactly and why it went away. I figured maybe it had something to do with starting hanging knee raises and decline sit ups later on (both weighted). I love the front squat even though I am a little frightened of stagnating as I did for quite a while when backsquatting. Stagnation is destruction for motivation, especially when you really can't see why it's happening.
again not a problem with the exercise. problem with you. This is why everyone here is small.
Facts! Many of Dr. Mike's arguments for avoiding front squats were reasons TO do them 💪
I've tried to love front squats because they look cool and everyone I've seen with big front squats also have huge quads. My experience with them was basically as Dr.Mike described. They felt like more of a balancing act than a quad exercise. I get a way crazier burn and pump in my quads with high bar squats with much less fatigue. Front squats also make my shoulders feel like they're going to snap. I don't see the point when you can just place the bar on your back and it becomes 1000x better. If you don't have fancy machines and you want squat alternatives then you can do sissy squats, split squats, etc...
Nothing will train high bar squat pattern more than front squats
It might seem pointless to someone like you, however, to someone like me, it is the easiest way to hit a deep squat. I have improved my high bar technique to a point im happy with, but going for, say 315 x 12, it all ends up being very hard on my lower back (even when in the video it looks like my form never regressed). My biggest criticism with front squat is that if you try and max out, it might feel like you wanna pass out, also, I can’t get a huge breath in before starting the descent like in back squat.
@@_Azeem_That makes zero sense
@@Jonathan-sk9de if your using a clean grip, try and point your sternum up aggressively to get a bigger breath. the other grips are much less stable for the upper back so they will limit your ribcage expansion
Same here, squat how you like, I love low bar and my quads get plenty of work.
8:57 - A point I'd like to add as a 5'5 lifter, being short makes it a bit easier but it still comes down to proportions. I've a shorter torso, longer femurs, and a relatively shorter tibia. I can squat almost ATG with high bar but I still have to lean forward, making it hard to target the quads primarily. I hope front squats solve that.
Ah true. Typically taller lifters have longer legs proportionately but yes it's just about the ratios.
One thing Mike didn't touch on is front squats can be good for people who get low back pain with high bar squats, too. I have long legs and short torso. Keeping bar over mid foot with high bar means I need to go almost sumo, or lean forward so much my low back hurts. With front squat, more of that load is easier to shift to my core/abs.
Edit: LOL as soon as I typed that, it came up in this video.
Edit 2: I can use less weight to get more quad stimulus, which is something Dr. Mike is usually all about. Hurts my ego to front squat low weight vs back squat big weight, but my goal is growing quads without hurting my knees or back.
If trying to keep the bar over your midfoot with a back squat hurts..just don't do that.
@@whwhywhywhywhywhywhy wrong i squat 10 reps with 315 (just did it yesterday ATG) literally no problem with doing it on the mid foot, it's literally how you are supposed to squat with perfect form. im not sure why this comment section is full of weird advice.
@@whwhywhywhywhywhywhy and fall backwards or fall forwards?
@@PEEERRRR Right? But yeah, I can keep it over mid foot. But my low back gets fatigued before my quads break a sweat. If I try to push to the point of my quads getting any kind of work out, I have to sacrifice my lumbar spine... and nah, I'll stick to leg extensions, split squats, and front squats.
@claytonslade2366 interesting... a guy at my gym front squats 405 but he's also 7feet 300pounds and not obese. Other than him I see no one front squatting or anyone online unless they train for Olympic lifting.
dr mike is goatie good, he is extremely knowledgeable but on some of his opinions he depends on almost pure 'on paper' knowledge. its good so that we have disagreements against good top tier ftiness youtubers it means we have much left to learn.
Super smart guy, but still has blind spots like all of us do. He's shown he can reconsider his opinions and I hope he does.
yep ofcourse, even you had a video regarding fitness topics you were wrong about and there was like a lot of them, natural hypertrophy and alex have done stuff like that too so I hope dr mike follows suit.@@GVS
His pull-up advice blew up my lats in a matter of 8 weeks (they were the greatest 8 weeks of gains of my life) but you know even though he is very smart and has a lot of good advice nobody is infallible… I found doing rows ultra strict like he sometimes makes bodybuilders who come workout with him do didn’t do as much for my back as a lil bit of body english but still being stricter than 90% of gym goers
@@GVSim gonna guess part of it is he is built to highbar all day, and another part of it is he is just used to training in elite gyms with ass to grass hack/pendulum/leg presses/belt squats and hasn’t needed to just make the shit in front of him work no matter what for a while
For him, the argument makes perfect sense. But more broadly speaking, even for hypertrophy, they're very viable.@@chairmanlifts
i love how you supported your arguments with scientific papers, peer opinion, and your coaching experience. unlike mike in this case
tbh front squats look damn sick so i was gonna keep doing them anyway but genuinely such a great job on this response !!
The value of doing something because it’s badass/looks cool is underrated.
He performed confirmation bias. Nothing impressive about it. He then used a tired argument about hunching over for computer usage leading to a lack of shoulder mobility, with zero evidence. Then made claims of fear mongering, with no evidence yet again to support his opposing claims.
I think this very representative of one of the very few gripes I have with Dr Mike’s/RP’s training philosophy. They seem to really be averse to what they describe as “interference effects”, which a lot of other people might say is “bonus volume”. It makes total sense from the pure science based angle, where you want to be able to exactly pinpoint training variables. Having to figure out whether your upper back is fatigued from upper back work vs front squats and adjusting effective volumes accordingly is harder to do with a pure science based approach as opposed to a more mixed approach. I absolutely love my front squats, but I’d be damned if I don’t do them with a slow eccentric and pause like Dr Mike does his squats.
I hate front squats, but if Dr Mike is against them, I guess I'll support them. Never thought I'd die side-by-side with a front squat...
lmao
so glad u talked about this. dr mike be saying some crazy stuff sometimes. altho hes one of my fav channels
I ruptured a thumb tendon doing front squats (missed the rerack). That means front squats are DANGEROUS, EVIL and NO ONE should EVER do one.
i really respect you making this video tbh
First time I tried front squats, I felt so uncomfortable with all that weight on my shoulders, that I gave up after a single set of 10 reps. A year or so later, I gave them another try and this time I was determined to force myself to like them. So after persisting for a couple of weeks, the movement started feeling very natural and before long they became my favourite squat variation. My only concern is that after 2-3 years of practicing them consistently, I hit a wall, where the limiting factor is not my quad strength/stamina anymore but my core strength/ability to brace and I can't break through.
Do dead bugs.
Dr. Mike never said they won’t build your quads. He said there are better movements in a hypertrophy context that don’t have some of the drawbacks. Obviously you’ll grow if you train a muscle.
the guy cant even get into a good front squat arm position due to lack of mobility
But still wrong.
I was actually baffled when I saw this video. I changed to front squats as my main squat and I dont regret it (I have very mobile wrists, hips and knees so learning the movement wasnt to difficult, but I still have a lot to learn).
Unfortunately I had an operation due to a burst appendix so I need to take a lot of time off the gym after coming home fron hospital, but I will sure go back to performing the front squat when I am able to train again.
Get well soon, wishing you a speedy recovery!
Fear mongering in the fitness community on youtube is a huge problem. i am a few months into my lifting journey and i swore off doing RDL's because some youtuber i used to watch in the early days scared me that they would destroy my lower back. Tried it for the first time this week (form was subpar but back was on fire afterwards). I regret not doing them sooner.
Same goes for behind-the-neck press. It's the only OHP I can do with no pain and i love that movement
I'm actually so freaking happy to hear someone calling out Dr. Mike! I love all the technical nuances that he discusses in his videos, but lately I've felt that he's put a lot of stuff out there that is not up to the standard that I held for his channel's content.
I exclusively front squatted for 1,5 years due to rehab reasons. I went a bit heavier on my back squat this week and it felt solid.
Front squatting definitely made my back squat "squattier", as Bald Omni Man likes to say.
After getting back to front squats a month ago I can say 2 things that might be helpful:
1) Front squat work my abs in a way no other form of squatty motion does. Once I got them back, my obliques were feeling it.
2) Because of Gainz, my front rack is significantly worst than before but using straps for the front squats aloud me to get in a great front rack position, one that I’m not able to archive without the external help of the straps. There are some oly weightlifters explaining how to used them on YT
Why train abs when you can do front squats, romanian deadlifts, and dumbbell rows… Take those within a rep of failure and they are better than 99% of ab workouts
I tried to get an olympic lifter style front rack at some point but decided that fucc it, I'll just zombie squat and I've been a happy front squatter ever since.
Completely agree. And I'm going to say something unpopular. Front squats are better than back squats for the majority of people. You use less weight and can reach deeper positions. You also work on your balance and stability and put less pressure on your back. I personally prefer them over back squats.
I think goblet squats with elevated heels will teach almost everyone how to squat in the first try. Front squat are a great progression from there.
Even Zerchers are preferable to me vs back squats. Also more functional, how often do you need to carry stuff on your back vs in front of you?
For someone whose goal is hypertrophy, I believe for most viewers of rp and Geoff channel, why would I want to work on stability and balance? I'll rather do back squat than front squats for reasons Dr mike listed. But I'll rather do pendulum or hack squat over back squats lol
Stability and balance work help you avoid injuries that would take away weeks or months of training. You should incorporate that kind of work on an accessory day at least@@heibaimao
@@heibaimaofor purely hypertrophy tbh i think a lot of people can get away with purely mechanized forms of squatting instead of free weight barbells
I loooove this video!! This is a good example of why you’re my absolute favorite fitness RUclipsr.
my best quad growth came from a phase of doing front squats 2x weekly. I have an SSB which in theory would be better, but it tries to fold over your thorasic spine (and neck), so its basically the same problem as with a front squat. you just dont lose the bar if you start to hinge.
This is the only dr mike video where I wasnt buying it. I literally did front squats that same day after watching it
This channel is growing!
I've always sort of disliked doing front squats, but this actually inspired me to give them another try 💪 So completely agree with you here Geoff.
In fact, if an exercise feels “hard” or “uncomfortable” due to poor mobility or posture, it’s probably the exercise you should be doing. Every movement cannot be isolated and 100% optimal for the hypertrophy of a certain muscle, sometimes you gotta work a bit on the "whole package".
No lol ur just adding fatigue and taking focus away from other muscles. If those muscles are weak, u should probably add specifications to ur program. But hey if ppl wanna do more work for less have at it
@@ChiefVince117 So what is your point - to only do isolations? The point of a front squat is to work your quads, core, upper back and maybe posture. How's that taking focus away from other muscles, if those are the areas you want to improve?
I have a separate quad day and a hamstring/glute day anyway, so doing a quad-focused squat on my quad day makes perfect sense. I still sumo deadlift too, because I find it to be a great glute exercise. Boohoo, I guess I must be really fatigued.
People are so afraid of fatigue that it’s getting absolutely ridiculous. Fatigue can be managed and if your programming is smart at all, you're not squatting or deadlifting every day anyway.
@@RR_9 yeah buddy idk what part of the "whole package" ur working on during front Squats, but I'd bet money it's doing nothing for there development. And what muscle group can't u isolate that front Squats hit? Nothing besides increased fatigue for no gain.
@@ChiefVince117 So basically you’re saying that all compound movements are useless? What do you do for quads, leg extensions only? And I guess for hamstrings, leg curls only? The romanian deadlift must be very “non-optimal” because it works some of your back too. Oh and I guess bench pressing is out, because not only it works your chest, it also works your triceps and delts. Yikes, so much fatigue!
I never said the front squat should be the only thing to do on a quad day. But you don’t have to be an exercise scientist to know that some kind of squat variation is a good idea. Pick whichever variation you feel in your quads best.
@@RR_9 dude read what u said, but not all compound lifts are equal some are more optimal. All I said was that ur reasoning was silly. Front Squats do not train "the whole package" better than back Squats and if ur stabilizer muscles are weak there are better ways too train.
TLDR: Injured shoulder and bicep front squatting due to poor form but front squat allows me to train quads without back pain via previous back injury. I recommend for people with back injuries that still want to grow quads. Also dont be lazy, do mobility and rehab.
Tale of Woe [Disclaimer: Most useful for beginners, smoll legs, and injured folk. If you're just curious go ahead as well. Otherwise if you read the TLDR you good to go]
I injured my right shoulder and bicep failing a front squat in 2022. The scene: 24 year old M year 5 of serious lifting. Lean ~180lbs. Last set of a 3x8 225lbs. Poor wrist flexibility so I use the arms crossed position. Lower back injury from earlier in the year impedes on lifts, have not started using a belt yet as a bandaid solution. Knees cooked because I have very poor ankle flexibility and remarkably stiff hips.
Prior to my set muscle mommies pull up on the rack next to me so I feel emboldened to complete the set despite lower back pain. Set 3 rep 7 I was "finito" but had to push through to impress the muscle mommies that I will never talk to, that dont care about my meager front squat and baby quads. The bar slid down from only my right delt, to my right bicep and instead of dropping the weight (no safety) I tried to keep it up and felt a pulling sensation in my bicep, finished the rep and racked. No obvious deformity in my bicep a little redness in the area but I could not tell if that was from the bar sliding or a new injury. Subsequent push and pull days I started to feel a weakness and discomfort in my right shoulder and bicep but I trained through it.
Maybe a year and a half later with a CT of my right shoulder done showing there is no strain (I question the use of a CT, ought to have been an MRI but my provider was very stubborn about my musculoskeletal complaints). 2024 I still feel weakness in my R bicep and R shoulder. There used to be pain in my R shoulder near my right trapezius/ scapular area running to roughly my R acromion. That had lasted for almost a year and some change. However the weakness in my right bicep is sustained. No pain. Some of my lifts have been affected such as weighted pull ups, bench, bicep curls, anything requiring my right bicep or right shoulder stability in some capacity. I have not sought out a sports medicine provider or a physical therapist but I do use what I have seen here and there from squat university and other resources to rehab my suspected injuries.
CONCLUSION: So while I agree with Dr. Mike on the potential for injury for front squat, there is a baseline for injury in any lift especially if done improperly/ form breakdown. In my case it was avoidable for many reasons: 1.) I had already been dealing with a lower back injury that made it difficult to do any squatting or hinging movements, so no lower back injury = probably no front squat injury. 2.) I did not have any safeties so I could not properly fail the lift. 3.) My form was breaking down causing my upper back to round and the bar to roll forward, so improper form/ form breakdown as Geoffrey mentions in the video.
Front squats continue to be a squatting movement that I am able to do so NOW with minimal if any lower back pain partially because the pain has diminished over time and secondarily I suspect because of the more upright posture front squats require of you and so its one of the better stimulating exercises for my quads. Also my as previously stated my knees are cooked in part from the poor ankle flexibility which is bypassed a little with the biomechanics of front squatting. I can successfully complete more sets of front squats especially as compared to back sqaut and leg press, I feel the quads being worked without the lower back being the limiting factor. I appreciate Geoffrey for offering a different more nuanced perspective on front squats.
Hit 285x5 recently on front squats so ya boy is still progressing on front squats despite the setbacks which is to say to the injured ones out there keep at it and train smarter. Buy shoes with elevated heels to squat for those with poor ankle mobility, def helps.
I started front squatting because of a shoulder/back injury and it allowed me to squat without injury. I just had to learn to use a lot less weight because you need more stabilizing.
Lesson learned: don't lift unsafely just to impress the muscle mommies you're not gonna even talk to and probably won't talk to you either cuz you're both scared of each other lol
Thanks for your common sense interpretation of this video. I am 53 and a novice lifter. I had lumbar back pain due to arthritis and spinal stenosis. I worked out in my basement for the last 6 months. Due to shoulder injuries back squats were painful. I bought a front squat harness and have been using it to front squat. 6 months into lifting and all my back pain is gone. I credit it to the front squat and trap bar deadlift.
Thank you so much for talking about this. I watched Dr. Mike's video and I'm pretty new to lifting. When I started to learn how to squat I was doing goblet squats with a kettlebell and I tried to do backsquats but I just can't do it. I can't get the depth and I really struggle with the wrists and grip with backsquats. But frontsquats really work for me. After watching the video it turned me off even wanting to do squats but then I thought if it works for me why not. And also it's still a squatting movement and I think any form of a squatting movement where you can progressively overload is surely a good thing.
True!
i hate when i really like someones content, and teachings , but then there comes one video just from the algorithm and clicks , and my admiration and respect goes down the drain ....
The more experience I gain, whether it be vicariously through others or myself, the more times I find myself being confused by Mike's viewpoints and the way he delivers them. I had all the same issues as Mike mentioned with the front squat, but that doesn't make it a bad exercise categorically. It was just bad for me at the time.
I fuckin love front squats they help me so much with my manual labor job
I have to clear (sometimes very large) tree branches out. While most of my cooworkers either can’t pick them up, or maybe “Jefferson curl” it up (😬), I can put it in the crook of my elbow and zercher squat it up. I got that strength from front squats
CrossFit MFs will do 20 reps of clean and jerks with ungodly form and call it “functional strength” and then shit on tried and true movements like the front squat. If that ain’t “functional strength” I don’t know what is.
I’m also tall and so I hate the way back squats force me into hinging. I already do good mornings
Find Mike’s old videos to be very useful, his channel has got to a size now where unfortunately the new ones are very regular and can be hit and miss. Important to remember that even with all his credentials he isn’t always right, like anyone.
Between this and him starting needless drama with other channels I'm about ready to just unsub from RP.
The channel blew up last year and I found the videos generally to get worse over time
Thank you for saying this. Nobody is always right, doesnt matter who it is
Makes no sense his content now is better than ever. His old content was all infront of a whiteboard and low production value. you're just used to watching content creators that put no effort into audio/video and editting like Geoffrey here who is lazy and half asses everything
@@PEEERRRR
The thing you can't seem to grasp is that Geoff does all of his videos by himself, while Mike has a big team.
Also his videos HAVE objectively gotten worse, with less practical information and more fun bullshit.
Clearly you just watch his videos with your brain off, since all you care about is production value and comedy.
Please take Mike's dick out of your mouth, so you can actually make a good argument next time.
Never experienced lung collapse. Most I've front squatted 275 x 15 just below parallel.
Reading this gave me a lung collapse. My lawyers will be contacting you shortly.
I started using front squats as an accessory to my back squat after seeing training video of Mike Tuchscherer and Greg Nuckols using them. I’ve PR my last two peak cycles. I used straps like Tuchscherer. Their fun and they give my upper back a little break.
11:50 this absolutely true as a person who trains from home I wish if I could have a Hack squat or leg press , but I work with what I've got
Mike has a lot of good content but I think his channel is trying to appeal to teenagers and early-20s males, judging by the crude humor and emphasis on getting jacked as fast as possible. From a marketing perspective, it makes sense, but will probably bias a lot of what he has to say.
This better becomes a two year feud! peaking in a "the great Front Squat" 3 hour debate on revive stronger or Nippards channel
I think throwing in front squats every once in a while can be a check on mobility. Being able to do a front squat is a big indicator of good mobility health. Need healthy ankles and shoulders.
I use the front squat after listening to Arnold I am 6'5" and the regular squat I either leaned forward to much or I couldn't go as deep. I think what feels best and your body dimensions makes alot of difference. It's difficult for use to listen to little guys like Mike on certain exercises they are good because they don't see pass short guy style training.
Thanks for making this.
I laid off front squatting for a bit after I watched some of Dr Mike’s video.
Got a badly impinged hip, and some sciatica that shifts between the left and right hip mostly on the right side tho (desk jobs suck man). Cannot do back squats to save my life, it sends sharp pain down my right hip badly.
I can front squat tho, still have a little
Hip pain, but nothing compared to the back squat.
The front squat helped with reducing a lot of that pain.
The pain slowly started coming back after I stopped doing it consistently. Earlier today I was thinking to myself “I really should go back to front squats, those helped a lot” then I saw this video, and It was a blessing. Thanks man.
With my build front squats are the easiest to keep over center of gravity and hit good depth, it just feels like up and down vs when it's on my back.
Platz front squats are superb for building the quads. The amount of tension you get is just nuts since a larger portion of the tension is shifted to the knee extensors since you can't really hinge. As you referenced, there's inherently less systemic fatigue since the absolute loads are less, hence less spinal loading.
Another benefit, if you have imbalances, is that hip shift isn't really a thing on front squats. You can also get around shoulder/wrist mobility issues by either doing zombie squats (less stable, I don't really like them) or my preferred method, attaching your lifting straps to the bar and holding on to the long strap portion. This puts the bar perfectly in the front rack without crushing your throat, and makes grinding a lot easier since there's no shoulder or wrist pain. You can also very easily dump the weight if you fail without risking a wrist injury.
My glutes and adductors somehow still seem to be the prime movers in platz squats. Whenever I don't have access to a leg extension machine my quads are on the backburner
@@rockyevans1584 Front squats are actually more glutes than quads according to some emgs.
@@joojotin I feel that. Greedy glutes stealing m'quad gains
@@rockyevans1584 My problem is opposite, quads and adductors take over everything.
@joojotin dammit, between us we'd have the perfect male leg
You make such a good point about equipment availability. I worked out in my home gym for the past 3 years, and i did not have access to a squat rack. I was forced to do front squats by cleaning the weight. Ironically, i made better gains in my legs during this period than when i had a commercial gym
Front squats are amazing, really! They gave me a lot of fun and pain learning them because it took some months to do it properly besides I was high bar squatting 120kg x 2, I couldn't front squat more than 30kg x 4 because of my mobility and wrists hurted a lot, but doing these it got better and 2 months later I got my PR to 100kg x 3. Also, I used to struggle reaching parallel on high bar squats, but, first time I tried these, ATG was easily achieved and I felt really comfortable in the position!
Edit: also they look cool af imo, I always wanted to learn to do them lol
100kg x 3 is pretty damn good
Damn. My high bar squat Is too in that range (best being 120x2 and 110x6, not ATG but below parallel), but I am very glute dominant. So I have been trying to do front squats for a while and I JUST CAN'T. I love the challenge they pose and I definetly feel my quads better but I can't even perform 8 reps with 60kg without the bar falling off. I use the "arms crossed" front rack cause my wrist get WRECKED doing oly style rack. Should I build up from a lower weight?
@@CraftingStudios1337 thank u brah! how much is yours?
@@Luca_S_8 maybe you just have long femurs man, so it may be harder for you to keep that upright torso and keeping that bar on your shoulders. I would do zombie squats! Geoff has a video on them. I would do them until I feel comfortable and then move to front squats, I think that's a solid progression and you would properly learn to keep that chest up. Good luck mate!
the iron graveyard is back
Just wait until you see his most recent video on how to stay motivated as a natural...
Already seen, and yea, not the best take in my opinion.
😂 oh you're serious and it's a real video
I watched it and I can't even tell you what it was about. Just waffling on for like ten minutes.
that's not even his ball park... what is he doing
Imho front squats are inferior. The only benefit of front squats is that is forces you to squat in knee- or quad-dominant manner, thats true. But in return you get discomfort in holding the bar on your shoulders (yes it doesnt cause injuries, I agree), upper back muscles limitation (its too taxing and annoying to be a feature, its rather a bug) and less flexibility in choosing weight on a bar cause doing low reps high weight is very unstable. This balance between bar rolling down and bar rolling up that it literally chokes you is giga annoying imho. Also yes in front squats we can squat deeper cause torso is more upright and hip socket conflict (or whatever its called) is happening slightly later, but this benefit is not worth it.
In back squat however you can either squat knee- or hip-dominant, depending on your technique. This video made me think that GVS thinks that back squat (even high bar) is a lot more hip dominant, but I might be wrong. You can do less weight more reps or more weight less reps as you like. Its a lot more comfortable to hold a bar on a back and you can focus on actually doing squats and working your quads (or hips) and almost forget about upper body.
At the end of the day your quad dont know what type of squat you are doing, cause its just extending the knee. In both squats we are trying to keep center of mass more or less slightly above the middle of the feet so quads actually dont feel much difference (thats why EMG is similar I think), so the only difference really in both squats is in the upper body and mostly how we hold the bar. Is this discomfort of holding the bar on your shoulders instead of holding it on your back worth it? Hell no.
Finally Gvs.. i fucking love your videos and i completely agree with everything said.
I just came back from watching Alec Enkiri roasting Mike.
I think Mike fully subscribes to the “maximum stability for maximum output” camp and just assumes most other “less stable, less ability for power output” variations are inferior. I find it fascinating when sports scientists think this way.
I did a 405 front squat when I was training it last year. I think it’s great for the dead and squat like u said. Upper back demands is a pro. It’s more difficult variation for me than SSB. I do the cross arm style which Mike didn’t like. Could also use two straps for a modified front rack style but meh
Nicely dismantled 👌
Fantastic supplemental. Front squats 1000% improved my standard squat.
I just added front squat to my routine when Dr Mike uploaded that video, made me second guess myself. But then I actually front squatted and it felt so much more responsive for me, I LOVE back squat, but I think front squat is superior for keeping me disciplined about my form and focus on the lift. Front squatting makes me feel as powerful as when I OHP, so that is a huge bonus.
Amazing video and great Work
“Don’t worry John. I got you” 😂🤣😂🤣 I love you
Really great content. I also commented on RP's video supporting for Front Squats. If I may suggest something, you can probably invest on a better microphone or minimize room echo. I feel like your audio quality is really poor relative to the content quality.
Thanks yea, working on that. Should be upgraded soon.
Great feedback
I have to agree, I am glad you made this video. I’ve been consistently front squatting for about 2 years and they have been amazing. My quads have gotten way bigger and I have never encountered any of the issues that he mentioned.
I also worked as a personal trainer for a while and I always taught my clients front squats before back squats because otherwise people try to hinge a back squat. None of my clients ever had any problems with them either so I was really thrown off when I saw this video as I love RP and I watch them all of the time.
I just started including Front squats for a month and Suprise, Suprise Mike comes up with this video
0:13 The eyebrow drop of concern. It’s the little things that get me.
dr mikes a short king so he’s looking at squats from a different angle. Like a lower to the ground than most angle
Lately, Dr. Mike has chosen some weird hills to die on. Front squats is one, then that one bizarre video were he was arguing that extremely low body fat % is not unhealthy. Maybe front squats are just one tool in the box and not a one-size-fits-all and maybe being stripped of all bodyfat is not healthy because there's no one who maintains it for any significant amount of time unless they're literally sick.
Great video, made me do front squats today.
This is an extremely helpful video. Dr. Mike had me legitimately convinced that front quads are just worst for quad hypertrophy than back squats
In some cases, yes. In other cases, no. Not for everyone but many love em.
Barbell Force 💀
I'll never be able to put my gratitude towards front squats into words. I had a few year period where back squats would hurt my lower back, thus forcing me to lay off them. The only alternative where I could load respectable weight was the front squat. Yes, there is leg press, hack squat, etc. I don't care. Nothing beats free weights. I would not have been able to squat for a very long time if not for the front squat. Not only that, but when I did get past the back pain, my back squat form was impeccable from the movement pattern the front squat had drilled into me for years. Forever grateful such a useful movement exists.
Well done sir. Subbed 👊🏼
This is the third burn I watch from people I follow towards Dr. Mike and they are all correct lmao
Informative and occasionally comedic, good stuff Geoff
Great video Geoff! I’m getting a bit worried about RP. Hope they keep their heads with all the subs.
12:00 this is really encouraging to listen to. I went to a gym that was both cheap and had a ton of machines, but it was always full of people, to the point that I had to wait to even start doing squats or doing them as a second/third exercise, just because both squat racks were occupied. And no, I didn't go at the hour everybody goes, which is around 7-8pm, I'm talking about going both at 8AM and even at 2-3PM, it was full all day.
Recently I found another gym that was around the same price, it was closer to my house, and it is always really empty (a friend told me, I went and damn that was true). It has no smith machine, nor hacksquat, let alone any complex machine. I think the only machines it has are cables and a leg press, that's all.
Hearing this from someone who really has the experience encourages me to stick to that gym.
It took me many many months to get comfortable with front squats but they actually give me a quad pump, which back squats never did. Thanks for an alternative viewpoint.
Great work Geoff, tbh I was waiting for your answer to that video :D
My only gripe with front squats is sometimes they feel like they're choking you. With that said the only "injury" that I've had from them is some powerbar knurl marks around my clavicles from over-enthusiastically re-racking the bar after hitting a PR. Whoops!
There is a bit of truth to your arm proportions and how the front rack feels. Biceps start getting in the way, too. But...just use straps around the bar... or do 'em zombie style. Better gains guaranteed if you're mumbling 'mmmmmm braaains' during your sets. 😁
I like movements that expose weaknesses.
My gym doesn't have a lot of the fancy leg machines in it. So I'm absolutely keeping them in my routine for variety.
i do a lot of low bar squats due to powerlifting. i’ve been doing front squats as an accessory for the past 4-5 months and love them for exactly what you said! they force you to not hinge your squat so hard and stay properly upright, and actually bring quads in to compensate for low bar kinda throwing them away lmao.
imo, high bar back squat is a little too similar of a movement pattern to low bar, and there is a nonzero sad ego component of doing heel elevated high bar back squats with like 60-70% of my low bar weight. heel elevated front squats are different enough to the ol brain that the lower weight feels like less of a bummer
This is a good call out, a much more nuanced video (what happened Dr. Mike?,) and I appreciate your standards 💪
I fucking enjoyed every bit of this..cannot lie. Thank you.
I saw the RP video in question and rolled my eyes at it. I think I had been at the gym supersetting 5x5s of back and front squats at 70 KG (not much for the back squat... but that front rack position tho). But then, at 44-years old, I decided to take up Olympic weightlifting for my mid-life crisis.
That's a great mid-life crisis choice!
You guys are both right; Mike just has a more myopic view of lifting.
Great video. People need to start calling this guy out more and more. He contradicts himself and misrepresents data constantly.
Whatever you say, random youtube commenter
@@MrLamorso lol good timing your response right before Geoff puts out a video on even more BS from israetel. Nailed it bro
I had to switch to front squats using a front squat harness due to an injury. I love them! The hard part was learning the technique and making the necessary adjustments to my posture. I definitely feel my quads working harder than when I was high bar squatting.
Great nuanced answer to Dr. Mikes unusual poor quality video! I have been doing front squats for a while now to fix my posture and it works quite good. Well done. All the best.
Awesome video bro. I was surprised by Mikes video too
Zombie squats ftw
If there is no risk involment why do it
-Tom Platz
We went from the only compounds no isolation era to the only machines/isolation era. While this lift won’t directly contribute to growing certain parts (like the upper back) it can be used as a tool to sneak some indirect extra volume and as an accessory / variation to improve upon other squat variations! Just my take - everything movement makes sense for specific people/goals when applied correctly
Glad a I watched this vid. Mikes video really influenced me lol. Thanks again Geoff
I had surgery to my left clavicle and can’t front squat. I agree with dr Mike on that.
I'm glad Mike made this hot take. It makes for enjoyable and interesting discussion, it would suck if everybody was always on the same side (which they never are, if it ever appears to be that way then some only pretend or lay low as to not experience others antipathy, which is very common unfortunately).
This is also the reason why I don't mind Athleanx takes on exercises like upright rows and leg extensions much, it's great to have completely different lookouts on the same thing, it's up to everyone to form ones own opinion by experimenting and researching.
I like front squats a lot, back squat makes me bend forward uncomfortably much, front squats feel much nicer from the get go and I've been progressing quite well.
I suppose it's good to start a discussion, but most people who saw that video won't see the rebuttals. Same with any athlean-x video that has millions of views, the layperson sees that and doesn't ever go beyond that, so they avoid movements for no reason.
I don't think "starting the conversation" in general justifies misinformation.
Great vid. Absolutely love front squats
That is what I call is "When something doesn't fit my narrative...". And people will believe it because, you know, Dr.
Back squat fun 😱
Front squat enjoyer 😎
Fronts are my go-to when I’m dealing with injuries. Low back injury, knee injury, adductor injury… front squats have been more merciful on pretty much everything. I do find that I start to hate them when I go for more than 5 reps, but that’s fine since I can still fuck with high-rep high bar squats (had to drop heavy high bars due to recent injury) on a different day. It’s fun to see my technique getting better and better.
I'm tall and have a love for ATG squatting, which doesn't go hand in hand. The first time I tried front squats with clean nad position, I felt like it doubled my T, made me a real man. Hard, but so rewarding. A couple of months later I saw a video of Klokov front squatting some crazy weight and it only solidifird my conviction. Front squats forever.