The Joe Morello Take Five Cymbal at Memphis Drum Shop
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- Zildjian 20" A Take Five Reissue Ride Cymbal -
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Master drummer John Riley and director of cymbal innovations Paul Francis discussing the creation of the NEW Zildjian 20" A Take Five Reissue Ride Cymbal as well as comparing it to the original Take Five Ride Cymbal.
This cymbal is exclusive to Memphis Drum Shop and myCymbal.com
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Contact us at sales@memphisdrumshop.com
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This one is pretty much spot on. No one can recreate an exact replica. It's amazing how close they
got in recreating a classic like this one.
Yes. While the reissue is very close, I think it sounds like it has more "ping" and less "sizzle" than the original cymbal. Both sound wonderful, just a little different from each other.
Perfect example of how old cymbals sound better than new ones.
Different.
In this case definitely. But I've played a fair amount of vintage cymbals, and most weren't that great. It's extremely hit or miss. There's a lot of inconsistency, especially with older cymbals.
New ones have good and bad cymbals. Old cymbals were either good or got tossed. Just like music. Plus the aging of a cymbal is always a factor.
I bought my first 3 Ziljian "Avedis" cymbals in 1965, two 14" medium hi-hats (matched) and one 19" medium ride (actually a medium-thin) that I use as ride and crash. I knew next to nothing at the time about them but I lucked out because I've bought many different brands and models of cymbals since then and these are the ones I use 100% of the time but matched up with new "A" models for larger venues (one 16" crash, one 18" crash and one 20" medium ride). For small venues, I use the 19" as the primary ride.
These 3 original 1965 models have the exact patina as the "Take 5" cymbal and this patina is much prettier than the shiny new penny look. I still clean them the same way as I did back then and they still look as new. Wipe down with an acidic cleaner, followed by an dish detergent soap and water wash and rinse, immediately towel dried and sprayed with furniture polish. This procedure has worked ever since then with no tarnish or fingerprints. The sound stays "clean".
There are no words to describe the sound and the holes are still perfect and they've gone from the 60's rock & roll and motown to today's standards and classic swing and light rock.
Newer is not always better.
i have a pair of paiste 602 15“ hi hat cymbals
i bought them around 1970
and they are so sweet sounding
almost on ever occasion i play them someone comes up to ask about them
they always sounded good from the start but the „ sweetness „
came later
The new one's a bit darker but pretty close...I can't even imagine holding Joe Morello's ride let alone playing it ❤
Mr. Riley's hands are so blessed that he can make a trash can lid sound as great as any of those beautiful cymbals. BTW, although it is impossible to match their sounds perfectly 100%, it is my opinion that both of them sound fantastic.. Blessings from Costa Rica.
...and again, John Riley is simply a phenomenal player!
They’re similar...maybe/slightly. But certainly not the same. That vintage is so darn good...the years are good to old Zildjians for sure.
Yes, but when that take five was recorded. It was new cymbal back then..
I think meinl is better than any cymbals ever made. Including old k’s
@@a5dr3 LMFAO I highly doubt that lol but whatever floats YOUR boat...
@@a5dr3 meinl is really overrated right now, it's an okay brand, but to say any brand is just flat out better then anything else ever made is kind of ridiculous
@@cancel432 ikr, top of the line of any of the big cymbal brands are great.
I could listen to that ride pattern on these all day! Perfect blend of stick definition and wash.
Very close. The original sounds a bit more airy and with a touch of sparkle, but I have a feeling the new one will probably sound like that in 60 years.
Yep, but I won't be.
Agreed. The only thing the new one needs is time to mature...
handidrummed I completely agree, there is a touch more sparkle/top-end attack on the original
Great video... I have an A Zildjian 20" ride from the late 1950s...still sounds wonderful
I have a 50s pair of hats that are pretty impressive zildjian made some incredible shit
The old Zildjian's had more complexity and tonal range.
Would it be a medium ride ? What did they label it back then ?
These replicas are great cymbals. They have nice articulation and a beautiful, pure, wash. Zildjian and Memphis Drum Shop did a great job with these.
Regarding the slight tonal differences,
remember that when Joe Morello recorded Take Five, the original ride cymbal was brand new.
Yay for gear!
To everyone complaining that these cymbals don’t “sound” the same... these are all hand made Zildjian cymbals. Even though they are made to the same specs they will never sound the same. These are lathed and hand hammered. That gives every cymbal it’s own fingerprint. The goal was not an identical sound... it was to achieve a similar feel when you play it. No two Zildjian cymbals ever sound the same.
If you claim you recreated it, than expect people will compare them.
That’s complete BS. It’s very easy to match cymbals actually. They’re not hand made at all. The originals weren’t hand made either. They’re machine pressed and machine hammered. They’re hand lathed. That’s about it.
They got the hammering and the weight completely wrong. Something which is relatively easy to do within a small tolerance.
@@climbjay Original 50's - cymbal still hand held by a worker and guided under the drop hammer, not like they are do today - computer operated. Sure no Turk was thrashing his hammer on one of Joe's though. Have one myself.
@@climbjaynah, even with the exact same instructions on a machine, 2 cymbals will rarely sound exactly alike. I think the distinct tone from the vintage cymbal also has to do with aging of the metal. There has been some research that the tin and copper from the bronze in vintage cymbals separate over time. Causing them to become more brittle, and sound different
Wow! What a feat! Kudos to Zildjian for recreating this iconic cymbal!
I got mine today and I have to say it is the best sounding ride I have ever had . I would feel comfortable going to a live gig with just this cymbal. That is huge for me. This may be the perfect cymbal.
Guys out there!! Some Old A’s were fantastic!!! Another Favorite with Jazz players of that Era was the A Mini cup Ride- I have one in 20” and 18”-- you will Love these Cymbals!!!1 and still available!!!!
New is darker... beautifully sounding as the old, but darker IMHO. To me it matters less if the re-creation sounds exactly as the original; and more the way that it accomplishes the purpose of being a great cymbal, with that clarity of tone and spread that made the ols As so fantastic. Tks for the explanation and tks, of course, for Mr. Riley playing.
The whole point of a replica… is to replicate
I own a vintage 22" Zildjain. I was also able to watch Dave perform at his graduate school, UOP, a couple years before he passed.
They are different in tonal characteristics,sorry they don’t sound the same if the new ride
was made to match the original!!
The new ride has more definition while the original has more spread!!
Both of them sound,fantastic!!!!
truthbtold totally agree with you
The original was brand new when Take Five was recorded.
That comes with age, they recreated manufacture process not sound, thats impossible
Both fundamentally low pitched, defined , clear
It's not completely due to age, that new cymbal has alot of characteristics of most modern day cymbals. ...overly focused, flat ping with no wash and cheap tin sounding. If anything an aged cymbal, without much cleaning, would sound more dull, instead it's the exact opposite here. Goes to show how these companies were bought out several times,imported/exported and couldn't be who they were even with the aid of an original prototype right in front of them, which the requirement is hilarious in itself.
I just picked up the 22" A avedis dark ride cymbal, and man it really sounds similar to the older joe morello one. Got that specifically for jazz gigs and it sounds sensational. I really love it! Thanks to memphis drum shop for being awesome with that purchase!
Another one with similar qualities is the 20" K crash ride. Depending on weight, the pitch is almost the same with a tiny bit less low overtone. Of course it's hard to judge as they use EQ and compressors on these RUclips videos.
Superb series of videos with Joe's Take Five and John's beautiful K collection. I think I noticed another Joe influence... the classic Datejust...all class Mr Riley!
Exquisite playing. Thanks John.
What a beautiful sound. Wish I had one.
I thought that looked like A. Zildjian & Cie Vintage hammering! Sounds a lot like one too. Have always liked that line. A bit drier and less shimmery than the original.
That may be the most beautiful ride I’ve ever heard.
great demo ....thanks Gents
The new one has an overtone I'm not crazy about.
The patina and lack of big black logos make these cymbals far more beautiful than the shiny "bling" of today. This reissue cymbal is on my bucket list. Love it, even though it is shiny.
I think the bells are different here. It appears the older bell is pressed to be almost a separate component to the cymbal, whereas the newer bell is integrated and colors the sound. If you look closely, the old bell has a distinct beginning. The new bell does not, as it slopes and morphs into the bow. At least that’s my take on it as to why they’re so different in overall sound quality.
I noticed that too
The bell is so critical to the sound. My 1965 Avedis hi hats were made before the A-Series New Beat trend of the heavier bottom cymbal. Both are extremely light weight and the bottom cymbal is lighter than the top (top - 710g, bottom - 685g) and yet, the bottom one sounds so much deeper than the top simply because of a shallower bell. When I nest them for packing, the bottom easily "spoons" inside the top but the top cannot "spoon" inside the bottom at all.
These cymbals are fantastic for soft jazz while using brushes in very low volume settings. Although they have been played regularly for almost 60 years, they are physically perfect while showing only the well earned patina. That's saying a lot for cymbals that were born into a 60's rock band with a self taught nut banging on them. I will probably have them placed in my casket so I can take them with me.
im not a zildjian guy at all, but that cymbal sounds absolutely lush!
Very Nice Sweet sound of Ori cymbal
I'd play either one of them they both sound great
How interesting. Personally I think they both sound fantastic.
I can't put my finger on where they went wrong. The 2 cymbals compliment each other very well, and sound like they come from the same family...but nobody else is going to be playing these 2 cymbals on the same kit. I have a feeling the new version is on the heavy side, giving it a more 'gongy' crash, and they have used the Brilliant Finish to try and bring the tone down to closer to the original.
I’ll put my finger on it, having Paul Francis develop it.
He was so way off the mark with a LOT of the releases during his time. He really wasn’t an artist or a total nerd/fanatic. You have to be obsessive to a fault to get these things right. He was just a company boy.
The K Constantinople hi hats of the last 10 or so year are some of the worst weight matchings ever. I had a pair that sat in the cymbal bag completely unused for five years until I got so damn sick of them I took them to a cymablsmith and had them lathed down in weight. Now they sound incredible… and Zildjian just released a K Con Light Hat 🤦🏻♂️
I think that if the new version were sand finished it would be closer yet to the original. By the way, they did a great job! And the newest looks beautiful!
The ride figures and sticking sounds very nice
on both cymbals ... myself having played a 20inch
like Joe's since 1965, and played this style for over 50years ..
the replica doesn't even come close for the crash ... here in 2023
there are a lot of 20inch 60's Zildjians for around $150 Cdn ..
The old one is better and it should be. It's the one Joe selected from probably dozens of others. All he had to do was listen to lots of cymbals and reject most of them. A great player and a great man got a better A Zildjian than I will ever play. He deserved it.
Excellent! I've tried patina on a NEW Avedis cymbal.. and it comes close to the 50's cymbal! More mids are noticeable in the vintage one. The new Avedis are perfect for recording and have great stick definition. The center slope is more gradual and flatter giving a more scooped wash compared to the vintage one IMO. 👍
Also FYI for anyone looking for this ride but can't find it, the 22" S medium is a surprisingly good alternative, same principle where it's pingy but with a delicate wash as well.
Spetacular! I'm a Paiste drummer, but I love Morello's Zildjian and playing. Awesome! And I did not felt much difference between these two cymbals. Congratulations! :)
Looks like more attention was given to the aesthetic and to the trademarks of the old cymbal instead of the sound.
The old one sounds slightly darker and better to my ear, but the recreation is great and will age well with time and years of playing :)
Yes, that's the whole point.
Very interesting. I’m sure this won’t be available for long. Meanwhile, how about John Riley? Swings his ass off, terrific ideas/creativity
Morello to me is the most musical drummer ever.
Rikko K absolutely!
Ever is a long, long time and it's not over yet. Have you listened to Sid Catlett, Joe Jones, Baby Dodds, Philly Joe Jones, Billy Higgins, Frank Butler, Ben Riley, to name a few? It's ok to prefer Morelo but don't limit yourself.
@@farshimelt ...Or even limit yourself to just American drummers ;)
Nice cymbal and nicely played
That’s pretty darn nice
Nice presentation.
The player makes the cymbal sing .Morello could have used a garbage can lid and still cooked that groove all day long
So true
It wouldn't have sound the same ! yes he could've played the groove but would have sounded like a trash can...
The old one sounds more warmer , the other a little brighter !
Another iconic A Zildjian cymbal to recreate ,would be the 60s A 18" crash /ride as used by Earl Palmer ,on everything from Sinatras Swinging Brass, Flinstones,to the Odd couple theme.I have a early 80S one (not saying its like Earls one)And in Zildjians old catalogues it was misdescribed as having a Light crash, But its the loudest crash ive ever owned,inc a 1979 A Rock Crash. I think Zildjian changed the design of the A 18 Crash/Ride circa 10 years ago?
They both sound fantastic! If I had to choose, I’d go with the original because it crashes better and has a brighter wash. Both are great though
Many good comments and observations. To my ear..the difference that stands out the most is the immediate impact when the tip of the stick touches the cymbal. The newer model sounds like the stick is dancing on top of the grooves...a bit more direct but as if one is playing on a slightly harder surface. The vintage model sounds like the stick is actually being absorbed by the cymbal and going "into" the tonal grooves causing the entire spirit of the cymbal to shine. The new model doesn't have that depth of character in my opinion. Now...you wouldn't ever play both at the same time and I imagine if we just heard the new one for a while on it's own....(with nothing to compare it to)..we would be more accepting of it.
They may not sound equal now, but wait for it to take some patina. They both sound beautifully btw.
I picked out a Zildjian 20" ride back in the 60s that sounded the same when I bought my first drum set - so sorry now I sold all some years ago when I needed the $$ - think I got less than $400 for all - Slingerland jazz set with Zildjians.
original is darker, but of course that comes with age
Now THAT'S a tall order!
The main overtone of the original cymbal is G, about a minor third lower than the new which is around Bb. That aside, the overall character of the cymbal is indeed very similar.
Wasn't it an Avedis Zildjian cymbal?? I have a 22' from the 1960's that sounds almost exactly like the recording by Joe Morello and the Dave Brubeck Five...
I have one too. What is the weight of yours? Mine is 2665g. I did not pay much for it and it gets used a lot.
Awesome.
Kinda late to the conversation here, but I just assumed Joe always used Paiste Formula 602s. Never knew or read that he played Zildjians in the early days. The lathing on those original Formula 602 cymbals is almost identical to the older Zildjian A.s...hence the legendary great tone. I have a (NOS) pre-serial number Paiste Formula 602 20" Medium Ride that I bought almost 40 years ago, because I thought it was the type of cymbal that Joe used on the "Time Out" recording. I can tell the difference between the two cymbals here, mainly because the "replica" cymbal is definitely heavier and has more pronounced overtones. Also, if you look real quick, at the very beginning of this clip, you will see a definite dent in Joe's original cymbal, on the top side. Did any of you guys see it too? When John Riley picks it up and flips it over, you can even see the dent showing ever so slightly on the bottom side. You have to look real fast to see it. I'm surprised they didn't call attention to it when discussing it. Paul and his fellow cymbalsmiths at Zildjian did a fantastic job in producing a cymbal that has most of the qualities of Joe's old cymbal. Not an easy task. It is still the "go to" sound that I look for in choosing a ride cymbal.
That dent is probably from the Zildjian trademark stamp.
Great post and great story and most of all.....GREAT match. Where are they, how much and where can I buy one? Thanks again!
memphisdrumshop.com/cymbals/zildjian/take-5-reissue
currently $300 down from $500
The Morello cymbal sounds very different. First of all, it sounds thinner, yet more refined. When he rides on it it has much more spread, a very lovely, velvety blanket of refined overtones, typical of the finer examples of A's of that era. The "replica" sounds much more like a common stock Zildjian of today, albeit a nicer one, but sorry - not really close to the luster of the original. No wonder it was the only cymbal Morello played on the session, it's all he needed. The old A's are highly underrated, which is great; they are far cheaper to buy on eBay than K's.
stick definition was very similar.... when crashed, both were totally different
The sound of Joe Morello's ride is the only thing I dislike about the original Take Five recording. To me the very different sounding copy in this video is less irritating but that's about all.
The replica sounds more like the original Take-Five-recording. But Joe's cymbal in this RUclips sounds way better than the replica. Maybe, that's the influence of 50 years of aging. Like a superior red vine?
Why they don’t sound closer? Original have some great crashability but new one seems to sound kinka heavy when crashed.
the new one sounds like Zildjian removed a bunch of the higher frequencies through hammering. It's a good clear cymbal, but doesn't have that same liveliness the older A has.
Soundtrip😎🍺🍺🍺
Yo tengo un Ride Avedis Z 20 inch.Años 60 una joya.Lo trajo a Chile Tom Mellito en los 80.Cada vez suena mejor.Lo mantengo protegido.Un tesoro.La replica de Morello necesita tiempo y el pulso de él.
I like the sound of Joe's original Take Five cymbal better.
I think that you like the sound of the recording of Joe's cymbal.
That did a remarkable job on it.
It's not that they don't make cymbals like they used to. It's that with all the attention to detail, they still can't make cymbals like they used to.
Nothing made today will sound like something made 60 yrs. ago. Unless you heard that cymbal, in a room, 60 yrs. ago, you have no basis for comparison and even then, you remember sound for only a few seconds.
hammering like Zagrebin
Hmm..close but not the same. Could it be the 'new reissue' version has to 'age in' a bit? I find with cast bronze Zildjian cymbals that they do 'age in' with time..sort of a 'sonic patina' if you will.
can I learn to play like that ?
The recreation has a bit more of a zing, but that may just be due to the different production processes. Regardless, it's a work of art and to say that it is based on the legendary man himselfs cymbal is pretty dang cymbalic😅
I’m sure I’ll be in the minority, but I never liked the tone of Joe Morello’s ride on the Time Out album. Still really cool to see and hear it being played here.
i agree with you... i would have like a darker ping 20 inch like many of the players had from the A series
Here's another one... and it's hard to say if the drummers had made the same cymbal choices if they had the same variety that we have for ourselves nowadays. I think not.
Close, but the old AZ has a wider splash sound.Go again Zildjian , nearly there.
My question is, where are the other ones that ARE the take five cymbal
The new cymbal should take on the sound of the original after several decades of use
Still a Little more air on the 57 one I would say ;-)
Send the original to paiste and I bet they could create an accurate copy. I would pay $1000 for it.
Saluda could also do a great job with it.
Did they put a STICKER on that vintage ride?!??
Paul did a great job with copying the original cymbal. You can't get a total copy of any vintage cymbal right on the dot. This is the closet I have heard Zildjian do in copying cymbals though in my opinion.
I like the old one much better.
What’s the weight?
How many cymbals were made?
They are kinda similar, but the "wash" is very different imo...
Funny that Joe later played his Paiste 602 signature cymbals. In his own words: "The Zildjians were played out"...
Therefore they have copied a cymbal that Joe didn't use anymore and I can imagine that after 60 years a cymbal sounds different... :)
i want one
I’m not a drummer, but I am highly skeptical the new cymbal would sound like Morello’s. Saying that, playing any instrument, ANY, is a combination of the instrument itself and the and the musician.
It reminds me of a story when Slash was visiting Eddie Van Halen. They were doodling around and Eddie got up to go get something. Slash picked up Eddie’s guitar and played around on it. When Eddie returned Slash asked Eddie to return the guitar to the settings he had before he got up. Eddie told him he didn’t touch anything!
There sort of close
The recording is not the same at all. Microphone, mic preamp, tape recorder and the sound of the room make the original cymbal sound it's own signature.
It costs what?
So can I buy the new version, what range is it?
Absolutely! Here is the link to what is currently in stock:
memphisdrumshop.com/search/A20TK5
It will be updated as we get more of them in.
Thanks!
-MDS
Not quite the same. The original sounds warmer and of higher quality.
I clicked on the link and it says that the cymbal is out of stock. Are these just not in stock yet, or are they already sold out?
They are currently out of stock, but you can contact us at sales@memphisdrumshop.com or 901-276-2328 and we can let you know when we have more in stock.
Thanks!
-MDS
Are cymbals like wine? They certainly get better by age
Yes, if they sound good to begin with. "Good" is subjective.
Formula 602 20"!
Original ride is still better. Not even so - it's unique, it's just perfect. I can't get how after 50 years of global experience Zildjian was not able to REALLY recreate that magic sound.
I absolutely prefer the pitch and shimmer of the new one, but I'm guessing it'll age like Joe's....in 60 years. :D
if it's played a lot.
Line 10 of the new ones up and see how no two sound alike. These guys were allowed to go to the factory and pick from hundreds. Jealous!