Battle of the Aces: Erich Hartmann vs Hans-Joachim Marseille
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- Опубликовано: 4 сен 2024
- During World War II, two ace pilots emerged who were considered unmatched for their skill and combat record. They were Erich Hartmann - highest scoring ace of all time - and Hans-Joachim Marseille - the top ace in the North African campaign. A common debate is whether Marseille - despite having half the number of victories as Hartmann - was technically a better pilot. We take a look at this claim.
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I have the honour and privilege to see Marseille’s Battle of Britain Bf109E 4 every day at work and I never tire of it! And I always tell my visitors that I actually think if his engine hadn’t failed? Sabotage? That he would have been the Luftwaffe’s greatest Eagle ! So if anyone is in London ? Come and see his Bf109! At the Biggin Hill Heritage Hangar !!
It's definitely NOT an honor to view the plane of a nazi. Historical? Yes. Honor? Hell no.
Would love to see it if I ever get to Britain. It was a transmission issue according to Colin Heaton on Forgotten History (he’s very taken with Marseille.)
Thanks for the heads up, I will go there when I go to England
That is f*ing cool.
Lucky you mate !
Its a disservice to say Marseille died from a botched bail out without noting it was caused from engine failure on a newer 109G, not from combat.
Apparently he hit his plane's tail when bailing out which probably knocked him out, unabling him to pull his parachute open... His comrades buried him on the same spot where he fell to earth.
due to shortages in war materials, many German pilots died from engine failure, Marseilles engine blew up, soft valves, holed pistons , shortage of hard chrome, hard valve seats, holed pistons from pre ignition because of low grade octane fuel, this all caused engine failures that the allies never had a problem with sourcing raw materials for engines and 100 octane fuel
100%. In the book A Higher Call, Franz Stigler, who flew with Marseille said he was reluctant to fly the G model as it was having teething problems. Orders from Goering was the only reason he flew the G model and he wasn't in combat when he died.
there is a great book to read its called, the secret horse power race, its all about ww2 fighter engine development , the me109 engine would only last 50 hours before needing a rebuild, pilots could not use full power, its a very interesting book that gos through the development, materials shortage, bombing of factory's ect @@robcozens6644
@@robcozens6644- The Me 109 "Gustav" overcame its early problems and turned out to be so good that they nicknamed it "The Killer" !
Very hard to compare the two..both Germans both exceptional 109 aces..but incredibly different personalities fighting in completely different theatres..this was a great doco...one thing to note though was Edu Neumann's involvement in making Marseille the fighter pilot he was...few if any other Commanding officers knew how to harness his talent and make use of it...Neumann did...one of the great German fighter leaders of the war.
According to his biography, The Star of Africa, he was killed not by his behavior, but by a mechanical malfunction in his 109G. I've read both of Hartmann's biographies and agree that Hartmann was very much a team player rather than a lone wolf. Marseille was more of a WWI pilot, rescuing some of his opponents and being a bohemian.
It's kinda amazing he survived his early career tbh. He got shot down several times picking fights recklessly, often with Allied Aces.
Do you think the failed 109G is still out there in the desert?
I would doubt it.
Hartmann said all the pilots thought Marseille was the best ever
No doubt Marseille was the best!
He was a humble guy, I doubt he would disrespect a dead comrade like that. But in reality he was better.
@@hashteraksgage3281 Not really. Hartmann recognized the flying skills that characterized dogfigthing but at the same time he considered it a waste of time. He used ambush tactics going in and out picking targets that appeared unaware or not taking evasive action and blasting them at close range and then disengaging searching for another victim.
Marseille could truly outfly and outshot other pilots in a straight up dog fight which is why he inspired such awe.
@@Jauhl1 I've said this before and i'll say it again: If Hans-Joachin Marseille had been born ugly, you'd never had heard of Erich Hartmann.
@@Neat_profileHaha, interesting perspective, and it may very well be true. Then again, the world would miss out on the mythos around his larger than life personality and all his zany exploits (primarily pre-Africa). As Galland said, with a laugh, "Marseille was one in a million".
Actually Hartmann had the tricks. Kill and run to another one and kill it and repeat .On other side Marseille had Aimbot activated.
LoL
Hartmann lived to see another day. He also told the truth about the F 104 Starfighter. It can be said that he is the ultimate survivor and ace. Great video, good info, good graphics. I wonder if the deflection shot meant that you really couldn't see the target, nor the hits as you fired?
I think Marseille himself said about his deflection shooting in a dogfight that he would open fire the moment his adversary would disappear under the nose of his 109. His bullets would "draw a line" from the engine to the cockpit, maximizing the chances of a deadly hit to either the plane, the pilot or both.
@@thomasgangl8990 He really focused on engines. He preferred not to kill the pilot.
The “Hartmann lived to see another day” point is irrelevant as Jochen died testing out a new model of the BF109 which had oil issues. I did not watch this video, do not need to as I know more than they are likely to tell you. I have however read multiple books on both. Jochen was a much better pilot and a better shot. Hartmann flew in a completely different style and a lot smarter.
PS. You can always see where your bullets will be hitting, even on a high deflection shot. There is no such thing as blind shooting in a piston engine airplane, however modern planes do it all day long.
@@michaelrandold4656 Interesting. Ya I thought Hartmann was always calculating the one pass out of the sun approach. My college roommate whose last name was Hartmann, was a pilot in the US Navy from 1990-1998. His nickname was Bubi. What's funny is that he had a blonde baby face too.
@@michaelrandold4656 having not been alive during WW2 how can you know who was the better as you witnessed neither of them flying?
Tactician vs. Strategist
Team Player vs. Lone Wolf
Survivalist vs. Bloodthirsty Predator
There is little doubt who would win a dogfight, and who would likely last an entire war. It was so answered.
Marseille is way more entertaining, though.
@@jaybee9269 yes. not a Vulture
Marseilles was the opposite of blood thirsty, he disliked killing other airmen so much he made it a point to become such a good marksman so he could disable the plane without killing the pilot. He would also fly over RAF airfields to drop notes to inform them on the medical condition of pows he shot down. Egotistical or Eccentric would've been more appropriate.
@@smokinjay2378 To this day, the men who train fighter pilots state that it is audacity and that separates the best from the better. The ones that have no fear are the best. they always do what has to be done to win. Bloodthirsty still applies because such is not cautious nor careful behavior.
Lion vs Tiger
Although both were excellent pilots, I'm in the Hans-Joachim Marseille camp when it comes to natural skill. He was one with his plane, as told by his comrades, Hans-Joachim often performed maneuvers upon returning to base, thus learning intimately the abilities of his fighter. He could do things with his Messerschmitt Bf 109F many other pilots scarcely could not; his uncanny ability in regards to his aim and deflection shots were, in my opinion, second to none. He often returned to the airfield with ammunition remaining, such was his marksmanship so deadly, his rounds not wasted. Marseille often riddled his opponents cockpit and, or engine with short deadly bursts, sending the enemy plane plummeting to earth.
In either case, I would not wish to be flying around the same area of operation as an enemy pilot with these formidable aces on patrol.
I don’t think Marseille fired on planes with the intention of killing the pilot. He was a chivalrous fellow.
The animations are beautifully rendered but they depict a late model Bf-109 with an Erla canopy that Marseille never lived to see and Hartmann would not have used (if at all) until late in the war.
In his autobiography "My Logbook" Gunther Rall argues that Hartman should never have been promoted to Major. Rall describes him as a loner who neglected many administrative duties of a Major in favour of combat sorties.
The documentary correctly points out that the Soviets had a price on Hartmann's head and at the end of hostilities his Staffel surrendered to the Americans rather than face the wrath of the Russians. Once the Americans realized who he was, they handed Hartmann over to the Soviets. He would be imprisoned in harsh gulags for a decade, returning to Germany in a prisoner swap in 1955.
He had hoped to become a doctor, like his dad, but now in his early 30s he believed he was too old and accepted an invitation to join the newly formed West German Bundesluftwaffe. He trained in the US and Canada on the F-84, F-86 and the F-104 Starfighter. He felt that the F-104 was a tricky, almost dangerous aircraft to fly (essentially a big jet engine with small wings) and tried to dissuade the Luftwaffe from buying it, warning there would be a litany of accidents but he didn't know that the West German government had already decided to equip their air force with the F-104G, a German built, license produced version which had been adapted to carry more ordnance than most other Starfighters. Perhaps the combination of being a tricky plane to fly, overloading and inadequate pilot training was the cause of the huge number of F-104 fatalities in the Luftwaffe. Hartmann's warnings that this could happen embarrassed the military establishment and he was forced into retirement at the rank of Colonel.
Thanks for the excerpt. Two minor corrections: 1. The last German POWs released by the Soviets in 1955 were just released, there was no "swap". 2. EH was not forced to retire, he quit service on his own terms.
I don't know why you would add that citation from Rall casting Eric Hartmann in a bad light for staying with his squadron. The reason Eric "favored" combat sorties is because later in the war as a squadron leader, he felt that without his experience the young pilots under him wouldn't survive. So instead of becoming a poster boy for the nazis behind a cushy desk, he refused to give up his combat role and risked his life to protect these green pilots.
@@smokinjay2378
The rank of Major brought with it additional command and administrative duties that Rall believed Hartmann did not fulfill, that he instead continued focusing on his personal combat duties as though her were still a Captain.
@2:45 that's one of my relatives, Rudolph Resch, wow, never thought I'd see him mentioned in a RUclips video.
Thank you for an enlightening video.
This is a very good comparison between the two aces.
One of the reasons why other Luftwaffe aces (including Hartmann himself) felt that
Marseille was the best among them was that
the number of bullets he spent to bring down an enemy aircraft
was consistently less.
This was a testament to Marseille's flying acrobatic and sharpshooting skills,
besides his bravery or bravado.
There was one other quality that made Marseille stood out.
He tampered his wartime kills to show his chivalry towards his opponents.
Against orders from his superiors, including Luftwaffe supremo Hermann Goering,
he would risk his life time and again to drop a note on the closest enemy airbases
informing them of which aircraft he had shot down or where to rescue their downed pilots.
What a load of horseshit! Dropping notes to the enemy makes you the better pilot? You better talk to your weed dealer. He is making you stupid. And marksmanship has nothing to do with flying. Two separate things. Also, who really cares how many rounds of ammo a person used? How does that make one the best?
..man muss sich immer noch wundern , wie jung die waren...in dem Alter solche Taten zu verbringen..
..meine tiefste Hochachtung
Marseille was a real maverick.
There were 200 plus Luftwaffe aces that made allied aces look like try hards.
Well, at first glance it may certainly seem this way. But we must take into account a few things when comparing Western Allied to German aces. The Luftwaffe was outnumbered in the East practially from the beginning, although most Soviet fighters were inferior to the 109 (the Focke-Wulf was used in the East only from 1943 on) with the bulk their pilots being badly trained in comparison. It was much of a turkey shooting in the initial days, even if Luftwaffe pilots early on stated that nevertheless they just kept coming. Of course, the Soviets would gather experience, and even in late 1942 they would produce the La-5, which proved more than a match even for the latest versions of the 109, later joined by highly dangerous and feared types like the Yak-9. The Soviet numerical superiority, using hundreds of attack aircraft in succeessive waves during the major battles provided masses of targes, but also wore down the Luftwaffe, because with such scores of tail gunners (and escorts, of course) aiming at you there was no such thing as a slaughter of the lambs. the bulk of the Luftwaffe was fighting on that front right to the end. So at least the experienced German pilots could amass victories, whereas at the same time, the rest of the Luftwaffe was fighting a war of attrition, which neither production nor training capacities were prepared for. When the Germans did take the necessary steps, it was far too late, to which Hitler added his own stupidities in preventing any massive build-up of fighter strength to counter the threat posed by the 8th USAAF, which also kept decimating them with their superior fighters, numbers and pilots. Anyway, a mere two Jagdgeschwader had remained at the Channel. With the German fuel production and transportation systems having been pretty much demolished, they simply were not able to field too many fighters any more. All in all, when after the liberation of France and the Low Countries the bulk of the Western Allied Air forces got into striking range again, there was little left to shoot down. There ist an autobiographic novel by Rudolf Braunburg, a FW-190 pilot late in the war called "Der verratene Himmel". I don't know if it's available in English. There the desperation and hopelessness of the young and ill-trained German fighter pilots who are sent up against Mustangs and B-17s is well depicted. They dream about the glory of the fighter ace, but get butchered one by one. With few exceptions on the Soviet side, the German fighter pilots nevertheless thought themselves superior to them, even though being outnumbered all the time. When it comes to US, RAF and Commonwealth pilots, I have not come across any remark by the Germans that does not convey huge respect and even admiration for them. So I think that, taking the overall situation into account, it is rather the lack of opportunity that kept the Western pilots from racking up more kills, whereas the Germans nowhere and never ran out of targets. Still, of course, you still have to shoot down your opponent, and no doubt hundreds of German pilots did this effectively even under the most difficult of circumstances.
I seriously doubt the numbers. They would be high due to the imbalance in the strength on either side and the higher number of combat missions the Luftwaffe pilots flew, but I don't seriously believe that the aircraft claimed as destroyed in these tallies would match the actual losses. And, in saying that, there would be inaccuracies in some of the Allied totals as well I'd say.
@@marknorris1381 I heard this so often, guess which airforce had the striktest kill accounts, not the allies or the soviets. The german pilot had to prove it with his camera, his wingmann and Soldiers on the ground had to verify the kill.
@@PeterJ1851 still flawed in my opinion. Actual recorded losses compared to claims are the only way to prove I believe. Just my view.
Most of those "aces" flew since the war in Spain. They also flew during the invasion of USSR in 1941 where most of soviet planes were destroyed on the ground.
A completely incorrect comparison. The Marseille was an outstanding aerial fighter, fearless to the core, and certainly one of the best at the time. Hartmann was never a fighter, he never participated in air battles, but tried to sneak up on the enemy unnoticed, shoot a few aimed shots, and then run away as fast as he could. Hartmann never entered the battle face to face, but only inconspicuously from behind. As soon as Hartmann saw that he was noticed, he ran away.
The thing about Marseille that sets him apart. Is how much effort he went into checking on the people he shot down in North Africa. Along with the very ballsy stunt of performing Wagner music in front of Adolph and a few other high ranking people. Then switching to hard core New Orleans jazz that he loved to listen to. Hartmann was a damn good pilot. I have more respect for Marseille, despite the earlier drinking and womanizing. Of course versions of them did make it in the Strike Witches anime series.
He was the real „Maverick“ 🤪
Marseille is like John McEnroe, a man of charisma.
It was Scott Joplin that he played. Much more daring!
♥️
I actually feel dumber for reading your comment.
The thing is, his reckless behavior, inevitably shortened his career as a pilot. As a whole, Hartmann’s discipline and control pushed him to be the better pilot and stay alive.
His recklessness did nothing to shorten his career. Joachen died testing out the new BF109 model that was coming out.
On top of that, he even survived 10 tough years in a Soviet labor camp in Siberia after the war, with the Red guards making his life impossible as a revenge for the enormous casualties Hartmann produced among the Russian pilots. Any other man would have died of sheer starvation an exhaustion but Hartmann came out alive of that inferno in 1955, and a year later he joined the new Luftwaffe piloting the F-84 and F-86 Sabres.
He passed away in 1993 at 71.
I disagree
Marseille didn't die of recklessness, rather, a technical fault in the 109G ended his life tragically
Hartmann was an Ambush predator, and when he got into a dogfight with a Half decent Yak-1 Pilot, he ended up needing to be rescued else he be shot down, while Marseille often had incredible accuracy, comparable to Hartmann, but was a Master of the stick, both the 109 and his personal own(he was a voracious womanizer)
Also, as pointed out by the reply above me, Hartmann would serve as a POW in the USSR to which he'd survive, but that misses out a key detail
Beaten & starved by the NKVD on interrogations, Hartmann would, in show of defiance and humility(or blunt honesty), when the NKVD officers pointed out he was the highest scoring ace in history, he said it wasn't him, and it was Marseille, when the NKVD officers, asked the madness of how a man with 300+ Aerial victories wasn't the highest scoring ace but a man with 158 aerial victories?
Hartmann's response?
He essentially said something along the lines off"Marseille went up against Western Pilots, in Western Aircraft, with High Training standards, 1 victory against them was equal to 3 or 4 of my own victories" essentially calling the Red Air Force Incompetent in Training and calling the West better Airmen
That singular event would net him solitary confinement for the majority of his time as POW
Eyes like a hawk. A consistent trait of top fighter pilots.
Situation awareness and ability to perform under great duress.
Intuitive knowledge of his aircraft’s capabilities and flight dynamics.
While Marseille was probably the more skilled pilot overall, Hartmann definitely has to get the overall winner in this match up simply due to two additional factors in these analysis'. 1) Hartmann survived WWII and went into the new German Airforce later in life and became a Colonel. 2) Hartmann also survived 10 years in the Soviet Gulag system which is an incredible feat in itself. Although he wasn't liked very much by most of his military contemporaries, most of Marseille's fellow pilots said that Marseille was in fact a very skilled aerial marksman, to the likes of something they had never seen before. He could actively engage his adversaries , and more importantly, score hits, while in dives, sharp turns, rolls, inverted, and even while he will actively pulling fairly high "g" forces. Most pilots, while no doubt being very skilled at what they do, are trained to "line up" or get into a position of favor for them to fire their weapons. This was an area of aerial warfare that Marseille was an absolute expert. He either practiced constantly or remembered many of these "points of favorable positioning" for him. Some experts cast doubt on the claim that he shot down something to the likes of 17 aircraft in one day, however, some do agree that he could have gotten 10 or more and it is not totally out of the realm of possibility that he did in fact get the 17 he claimed. It's hard to speculate, but had Marseille survived the war, he certainly would have had the opportunity to surpass Hartmann's record due to how fast he was accumulating victories. Marseille held the philosophy of the "old school" pilot. He believed in a fair fight. If he saw an adversary was in a crippled aircraft and not actively engaged in air to air combat, he would not fire. He also flew messages of downed pilots and their condition and where they were being held to the enemy. He was ordered NOT to do that again, yet, he continued to do it. He was a young, handsome, playboy type of man from a very wealthy and aristocratic background and could care less about rank, or being a military solider. What he did care about was flying airplanes and he flew to protect his homeland like many German pilots of that time.....and probably a little bit of glory and fame in the process.
Yes Marseilles was called the greatest dog fighter and acrobatic pilot in the luftwaffe by Adolf Galland and others however by hit and run measured tactics Hartman survived the war and downed twice the enemy numbers for the Fuhrer. These measured tactically patient fighter pilots #1, #2 and # 3 men survived the war and downed almost 1000 total enemy aircraft! We have no one to compare to these 3 men.
But Marseille died because he had to test out a new variant of the 109, because of engine failure, not even during combat.
Another well done presentation, Bravo. I must say though, the word ''ejection'' has no place in this. Just a bit shy of as good as possible. Again ''Bravo!''
one thing for sure that amaze me & in my opinion was that they (german aces) never boasted their achievements
All the German aces were great pilots
Ironically by allowing aces to fight until they died, the Luftwaffe deprived itself of the best training skills and ultimately created a weaker structure than the RAF and USAAF…
They got the Iron cross or a wooden cross…
Germany always tried to fight a quick decisive war; they were at a disadvantage in long sustained fights
😂
weaker structure but much much better fighter aces
@@vantom6194 >> Not better; there was no rotation system.
@@jaybee9269 theorically that will make you better surviving hundreds of missions will make any man better both in skills and experience
I do miss Werner Mölders in this overview
You gained a new subscriber after this great video. Keep up the great work.
Hartmann was the fearsome aerial sniper, while Marseille was the unmatched dogfighter. It is interesting how different the two aforementioned flying aces were in terms of their upbringing, introduction to flying, discipline, tactics, and approach to combat. Marseille had a rather rough life and was introduced to flying quite late. He was not very disciplined but was an extremely talented and skillful pilot. He relied on his superior dogfighting skills and took risks, seeking challenges and glory regardless of the odds or how outnumbered he was.
Hartmann, on the other hand, enjoyed the support of his mother from a young age; she was one of the first female glider pilots in Germany. He trained with gliders from a very young age and was already a skillful pilot before joining the Luftwaffe. He relied not only on his skills and experience but also on his discipline and intelligence to maximize his chances of victory and minimize risk. He calculated the odds of an engagement and avoided unnecessary risks in dogfights, despite being very good at them, preferring to lurk and hunt his opponents. That is why he survived so many sorties and reached such an unimaginable score.
Marseille might have been a better dogfighter and more skillful pilot than Hartmann, but Hartmann's combination of skill, experience, discipline, and rationality made him the most successful ace of all time.
I haven't watched that many documentaries about the German aces, but this one's the first not to discredit the Soviet pilots.
And for that I should thank you
Unfortunately I think it’s common for historians to neglect the Russian influence on WW2 and this is just a symptom of that ! And I totally agree with you on this point!
@@austinguest5054 To be fair though, as of lately the Eastern front and the Soviets are getting more attention and proper evaluation compared to the past
I believe Werner Molders was the best of all...experienced, serious and a "natural" pilot. He died too soon in the early days of the war, not at his fault.
He was traveling as a passenger on a transport plane when they suffered mechanical issues and crashed.
dear sir I agree with you 100% not only werner was a great pilot but also a great leader and his tactics towards ariel warfare. Werner was the best and a great man. He is my Favorite pilot from ww2. Thank you Sir for mentioning him.
Jochen was the better fighter pilot to be sure. He had a unique attitude and skill set going into the war and he learned by failure and was able to do what a lot of people cannot, turn a failure into a positive. Hartmann flew as smart as one could during the war. He was always looking to set himself up in an advantageous position and had a heavy emphasis on situational awareness going into every single mission. A lot of people might assume by kill count that Hartman was surely the better pilot but you have to take note that Jochen down western trained pilots who where far better than their Russian counterparts for the most part.
PS. I flew under the call sign “Jochen” in Warbirds, but I flew like Hartmann and wracked up a 98 and a 102 kill streak where most other good pilots were getting 10-20 kill streaks. There is a method to setting yourself up for success and a certain amount of self discipline.
Excellent well presented video on these two great pilots, based on what I've read and seen on both pilots. This a long debated question on who was the best of the two and it's such a difficult thing to answer given the different theatres and opponents they fought. The opinions of other Luftwaffe pilots are interesting but then again very few actually flew with both to be able to compare the skills of each pilot. Even Johannes Steinhoff, who flew with Hartmann in JG 52, knew Marseille before he became a much better pilot, so his opinion of Marseille was very low (but for good reason at that time). I respect both great aces for their skills and the manner and difficult conditions in which they fought. Both were anti-Nazis, respected their opponents, and gave all they could for their country. RIP!
Excellent video AND topic ! What I want to say here is that this is the first time I have seen more pictures of these aces and I am angry that these have NOT been cleaned up and shown to us before ! And I mean all of these aces ! Please go into better detail for us and show these Aces for us again !!
great insight into the Ace mind , love your content love to request a bit longer in depth video on star of Africa . if you could I would be grateful.
What you said at 8:04 is very true and is a great observation by this pilot. I always judge my enemy by their actions and prioritize those with high experience first in a clutch situation to prevent them from gaining advantage
When talent intersects with work and a skilled mentor...amazing things can happen
'Ejection?' Not really an appropriate description for the time period mate! Bailing out would be better.
I must write ✍🏼 to state;
Very, very Simple, talented, Brave Brave 👮♂️men.
Really,
Flying & fighting in such simple, mechanical, machine gun firing aircrafts & becoming Aces♤.
A good presentation,
Many Thanks from,
New Delhi 🙏🏽 INDIA 🇮🇳
Marseille the most brilliant natural fighter pilot and Rudel the greatest most effective warrior.
true.
What F-15 is among fighter jets, E. Hartmann was among pilots.
My Great Uncle survived these men when he was a 17 Driver out of Naples, and then one day flying what might have been the SR71 of his day ferrying mechanics and parts to damaged and serviceable 17s in the area of combat.
On the way back one day, flying that stripped down P38 he stole from the 57 Fighter Group (if I recalled correctly), all weapons and ammo removed and the Armor Plate behind the seat as well, a Flight of Fokker Wolf was descending down on him blazing away at him caught low and nowhere to go.
Like the Post Eldorado Canyon flight of the SR71, he upon noticing the tracers in front of him and then all about, he pushed the throttle to the wall.
Still being sucked into his seat with the Tach pinned at 400 knots, it was a moment before he could look over his shoulder.
There was no sign of them. He blew out of there faster than anything that existed with men at the controls.
Another vote for Marseille, he often sed only an unbelievable low number of rounds to shoot down an enemy aircraft, add his steely nerves and the fact that all his victories were against Western forces and you surely have the most dangerous man in the air in HJM.
We will never see Hollywood produce a movie honouring these pilots. Clint Eastwood being the exception if he was 30 years younger.
Marseille’s life should be a Christopher Nolan film!
I think it’s impossible to say who was better. They were each the greatest in their own particular time and place in the world. Great video, by the way. Very thought provoking.
Its not, Hans was way more skilled. The man was so good at dogfights he would take on 6-7 aircraft by himself and his wingmen would just watch him in awe. And whereas Hartmann relied on shooting planes point blank, Hans was such a good marksman he would aim for the engines as to not kill the pilots. He was such a good shot that when he returned to the airfield the ground crew would check his guns for jams because he would have so much ammo left. He also had the highest test scores from flight school out of any german pilot during WWII.
Absolutely impeccable video 🙌
Enjoyed your video. Some of those pilots from back then you just wonder what makes them Tic. A story I remember a German pilot crash landed back to base with a shot to shit fighter and a bullet in him and takes off in another fresh armed Fueled plane to go back to the fight. ?
Back then men were men and it didn’t madder what flag you flew under.
the 109 G model failed Marseille
The fact that most of the German pilots because the Treaty had to start out in gliders made ANY flight not frivolous, made you look for both thermals and ready landing spots in almost complete silence without the engine and almost no gauges to distract you from the get go set a good foundation to survive from flying in combat .
Wonderfully put together. 👌
Very good analyzing job. From what we can know for certain and what we can justify you did a great and fair job. Gratulations.
This is a very, very good video!! It took a lot of research to correctly make this video! Thank You!
Fabulous work. Exceptionally educational and informative.
Many congratulations!
Thanks for that very interesting comparison !
I could hear many details, never seen before.
I prefer Günther Rall. He was no eternal teenager, was the 3rd scoring ace and a team player.
Always thought he seemed a nice fellow.
That is too simplistic, Rall and Hartmann clashed during their time as Bundeswehr officers (Starfighter issue), here Hartmann was most likely correct.
IIRC, Hartmann came to the Eastern Front in the summer of 1942, and by the Battle of Kursk in July 1943, he had "only" accumulated 22 kills. The remainder of 330 kills were scored between July 5th, 1943 and May 8th, 1945, with his last kill scored on that day. I know aviation fuel became a problem for Germany as the war progressed, though it would be fair to assume that Hartmann would be one of those who got priority on flight time. It would still be interesting to see a breakdown of how his sortie average developed over time.
The circumstances in which these pilots survived long enough to gain the experience is far more interesting than the comparison....There were many many amazingly talented pilots who werent as fortunate to survive getting shot down as a young pilot as Marseilles did....or get opponents like i16's to hone your skills. Marsellies was also shot up twice by the same hurricane pilot....James Denis. Surely the fact that the early 109's were a step ahead and certainly played a role in germanys early success
Doesn't matter what your opinion is, neither does mine. What does matter is the fact that both men were unique from each other in how they approached air combat.
Heres my observation for what its worth:
They would make a movie about Marseille and a documentary about Hartmann.
My own favorite is Bobo Galland then Molders.Hartmann is a cold fish and Marseille too unpredictable for me.
Marseille’s life was terribly romantic, though.
@@jaybee9269 Why? because he flew in the desert?
@@user-bx3hz6wl5m >> It’s romantic in its scope and epic-ness!
The Bf 109 F series didn't have the late Erla canopy. Also; Marseille was strongly opposed to using the Bf 109 G, since it was heavier and less agile.
Interesting how the narrator aces (pun intended) the pronunciation of the German "CH" in "Erich" (Hartmann) and "Hans-Joachim" (Marseille), but struggles with much more simple names such as Eduard Neumann ("Eh-doo-ard Noi-munn") and Heinrich Bär. Bär in fact means "bear" in English and is pronunced exactly the same.
As a lazy fuck myself… I am inspired by this guy. He was inexperienced. He mucked around, he chased women and drank himself sick and senseless. But he had RAW TALENT that saved him from his poor work ethic and lack of discipline.
I am not bashing this guy. I like this guy a lot! I am kind of like him! I mess around. I slack on my training and preparation and my talent makes me the king of the bronze medal. If I worked harder I might have more gold medals. But since I’m a jackass at heart and just got lucky genetically. I manage to do half of what I should.. and still get a bronze or silver medal almost every time
A very good documentary. The voice is excellent.
IMHO Marseille’s skill is unmatched. The truth is - no war was won by the greatest, it’s always won by by the most efficient, and Bubi was way more efficient in tactics, calculating risks and protecting the team. You never want Marseille as a wingman, but you forever admiring his craft, may the God save his troubled soul..
Thank u for this exceptional Documentary. Great Job \m/
Yes the Germans had pilots that had amazing scores. How many survived the war though?
Imagine if they used Hartmann to teach aerial tactics, and Marseille to teach aerial combat to new pilots, the last couple of years of the war wouldn't have been such a turkey shoot.
Both the Germans and Japanese used their pilots til they died, the Allies took their aces and had them train the newbies. that is why the allies didn't have aces with such ridiculous kill tallies.
How many German/Japanese planes were shot down compared to Allied?
Germany and Japan couldn't spare the men they were in a war of attrition where they had far fewer resources. They were not like the allies who could rotate pilots out and have their skilled pilots train new pilots. It honestly makes achievements by Germany even more impressive when you consider just how outnumbered they were in the skies. This also gave them far more opportunities for kills. That being said There is no doubt that Hans Joachim was the most skilled fighter pilot of all time. As all his victories were against Western aircraft which were considered better and had better pilots as compared to those of Russia. Erich Hartmann said as much as well. Not to mentions his skill as a gunner. Absolutely impressive.
I could not agree more. Well said.
Aka “Jochen” in Warbirds.
Thank you for doing this analysis. It's such a controversial topic in the sense that we are confirming the title of the greatest ace.
You took a very unbiased approach which is hard, i have both books on these two pilots and horrido. And to top it off the censored version of stucka pilot. There are so many pilots that could take this place and many contenders from the allies could be placed here with your analysis.
In the end your conclusion I feel is quite fare. Marseille would have been terrifying to go up against 1 on 1
17:28 is neither shortcoming nor recklessnes... Hartmann himself said the enemy aircraft needs to be as close as possible to use less ammunition while shooting it down more effectivly. ;)
Hartmann killed 8 Mustangs during the defense of Romanian Oil Fields. The other 344 planes he shot down were Soviet Planes. There is no doubt, that the western allied Pilots in general were better trained and leaded. Only the Elite Soviet Squadrons could keep up. Which is the reason the Soviet Pilots were the most successful Pilots of all Allied Forces. Marseille was the best - there is no doubt either. General Galland stated that in his book after the War. He was the commanding General of all Fighters.
But the Story about Hartmann is worth a full movie. He survived 10,5 years in Soviet Captivity. He stood his ground all this time even when he got convicted as a War Criminal. He wasn't an "easy" man after that. He joined the new build German Luftwaffe and become just a Colonel before he retired because many Superiors couldn't handle or stand him.
Really great video! I like that you don't taking sides. I'm also a great respecter both of them, and also many other Luftwaffe and other nations great pilots. Finland had great pilots, Japan too. Less know and having less kills, yet fought under very difficult conditions Hungarian pilots also had great results. The 101 Fighter Group know as the 'Red Pumas' were actually more effective than those German units flying in the same airspace fighting against the same enemy during the summer of 1944.
I really would love to see some content about Erich Rudorffer, one of the last great Luftwaffe aces. He passed away in 2016 in his age of 98.
Interesting/informative/entertaining. Excellent photography job enabling viewers to better understand what the orator is describing. Once again the disillusioned/arrogant upper echelon in Berlin. This time Goering was the worst enemy the Luftwaffe pilots had.
日本ではマルセイユがアフリカの星と称えられて有名で僕も映画で見て感銘しました。日本にも数多の撃墜王がいますが比較は失礼なので致しませんがよくぞ戦ったと感激しています。
As the video makes clear, Hans-Joachim Marseilles' exploits over the Libyan desert in 1941 and 1942 became the stuff of legend. On being attacked by Bf109s, one tactic of the British (if they were flying the Kittyhawk, which was inferior in performance to the Bf109) was to form a defensive circle with each aircraft protecting the 6 o clock of the aircraft in front. Marseille's tactic was to fly a looping circle under and then over each aircraft in the circle, thus enabling him to dispatch each aircraft at very close quarters and with the minimum number of shots. On 3 June 1942, for example, he shot down 6 British fighter aircraft and on 17 June 1942 he shot down a further 6 aircraft within 7 minutes. On one of his sorties, he was accompanied by another German ace, Ludwig Franzisket, who remarked that, on observing Marseilles attack a formation of British aircraft, he was so spellbound that he forget to fire his own guns. (Seite 34, "Deutsche Jagdflugzeuge 1939-1945 in Farbprofilen", Claes Sundin und Christer Bergstroem).
And see also Seiten 121-123 "Die Jaegerasse der deutschen Luftwaffe 1939-1945 Einsatz, Taktik and Technik" von Mike Spick, Bernard & Graefe Verlag.
The ratio of kills for length of time in combat btwn the two is quite comparable, as Hartmann was only on the Eastern Front for 2 1/2 years.
what does it make less comparable is that hartmann fought russian planes and pilots ( wish where not the best at least when we talk about the planes ) while marseille fought spitfites and hurricanes i think you cant realy commpare those too pilots for there complete diferent "flying style"
@@gehtdichnixan3200 That doesn't count after 1942. The Soviet planes '43 onwards were not worse than German planes. It gone so far that orders were given out to German pilots to not engage in turn fights with them.
@@23GreyFox when yyour outnumbert turnfights are a stupid idear no matter how good plane and pilot are
@@gehtdichnixan3200 I just wanted to show that your claim about bad Soviet Air Force is not historical accurate at the time Hartmann served at the eastern front.
They still were far worse than the german planes.
Marseille was the best. I am sure if you look at the ammunition expended vs kills his efficiency was unbeatable. Hartmann was a great pilot though, no doubt about it.
American protocol was that beyond a certain number of kills aces were pulled out of combat. Germany's aces stayed in combat regardless of how many kills they had- hence a few of them got very high scores.
We hafe do go on our Knies for both! (Please , my Englisch is terrible, sorry)
Erich Hartmann was indeed the highest-scoring Ace of WW II and of all times, however, he was also the most reckless, but it was Hans-Joachim Marseille "the Star of Africa" who was indeed the greatest fighter pilot to ever have lived, a Legendary Ace, the true successor to Manfred von Richthofen, the Red Baron, first of the Aces, Hartman himself & several other pilots in their memoirs even admit this fact,
KNIGHTS OF THE SKY NEVER DIE!
Sadly the world will never see pilots like this again
Marseille was definitely one of the best fighter pilots - stick and rudder skills, SA and gunnery. Unfortunately, by Sep 1942 the LW supply lines had been cut by the tremendous 2 years of fighting over Malta and the Med. RAF in the Western Desert were also gearing up for El Alamein and were grossly outnumbering the LW. There were even a few USAAF Squadrons arriving to fly with the RAF in the DAF.
Marseille was not optomistic about his chances at that point.
Brilliant analysis, terrible German pronunciation, but very happy to see Germany's best pilot, by far, recognised as such. A troubled, but incredibly gifted young man, who was fortunate enough to luck into having a commander who let him off the leash.
Beide hatten vollkommen unterschiedliche Flugweisen.
Marseille hat seine Maschienen im Flug bis zum Erbrechen vergewalltigt. Hartmann war mehr der Taktiker, der von "unten kam"....
Now do a comparison between Manfred Von Richtofen, the Red Baron and Rene Fonck (in my opinion, the best fighter pilot of WW1).
The suggestion that Marseilles was a lone wolf is utter nonsense. The entire flight would position themselves to protect him as he wheeled through the enemy formation. Marseilles is even quoted as saying his favorite victories where the ones he came to the aid of another pilot. His early war antics are not uncommon to new pilots and in time he came to understand this and avoid it.
But Im very grateful, very good film and great degree of info!!
Erich Hartmann fue el que más aviones abatió,pero el mejor tirador fue sin ninguna duda Marseille su disparo en deflexión era mortífero, llegando a derribo en un solo dia 17 aparatos enemigos,murió al averiariarse su avion y al saltar en paracaidas choco seguramente con una de las alas de su aparato,ya que su paracaidas no llego ni siquiera a abrirse,los alemanes nos guste o no fueron con diferencia los mejores pilotos de la segunda guerra mundial
Two great pilots with different tactics.
both were amazing pilots but for me number 1 is always Jochen Marseille ! this what he were doing in the air was mind blowing beside he shot 17 planes at one day sooo .. undefeated !! hartmann said that the best was Marseille and Galland said that Jochen was real virtuoso, noone can compared with his skills, just real legend ! regret that he died so young in such stupid accident :/
Thank you for this video.
It should be stated that even in Hartmann's memoirs, he wrote of being interrogated by a few Soviets after the war, them telling him how he was the greatest pilot to ever live due to him shooting down the most, but Hartmann actually stated about him being the best pilot being false and Marseille being a better pilot.
Erich Hartmann was a zoom and boom fighter , usualy fly alone with his wingman hidden by the sun at vey high altitude , very deadly , rarely got in a dogfight to help other pilots , his doctrine was to have as many kills as possible , Marseilles was everything together , well known to aim for the engine not to harm the pilot , true gentlemen , the best dogfighter and the most dangerous and skilled pilot ever existed
Amazing video!!!
I read that Marseille was totally happy with the Bf-109F, but was forced to go to the G-Model. This of course ended up killing him.
Marseille would most likely have very little trouble adapting to the eastern front since he posessed enough skill to choose not to kill his enemy and just destroy the aircraft.
One lived to old age was never shot down, was a team player and thought dogfighting was a waste of time. Hartmann was the man.
Thank you for your service 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Why is this even a topic? Fan of both. Hartmann top of the tree though.
Hartmann himself called Marseille the Ace of Aces in Soviet interrogations.
its a no brainer marseille is way ahead of hartmann .why its very different fighting well trained raf pilots then russian tractor farmers.marseille fought mainly english pilots im sure if he was on eastern front with his skill he would beat hartmann
You do know that the top-eleven or top-twelve of allied fighter pilots all were Russians - right? The best Western allied pilot (Pat Pattle of South Africa, flew for the RAF) had 41 victories to his tally, the next best West guy, Dick Bong (USA) had 40. The Russians had ten or eleven that was better. The very top allied pilot was Ivan Kozhedub. He had 64+4 victories to his tally. 64+2??? - Yes, the two were P-51 Mustangs that thought his La-7 fighter was a German FW 190, and attacked him. Kozhedub had no other option than to shoot them both down.
He also shot down in the least one Me 262 jet.
@@MeBallerman In MLHO Hans Joachim Marseille was the best fighter pilot in WWII, period. See what he has done in his short carreer.
@@AAlphonse-zd3tm He was one of the best, yes. But the opponents he fought in Africa were Hurricanes and P-40 Tomahawks. He completely outmatched these, at that time, obsolete fighters in his modern 109F-2 and F-4. But of course he was good. Hey - what's "MLHO"?
@@MeBallerman My little humble opinion
@MeBallerman
Pattle had 50 victories, possibly more but records are not extant following the fall of Greece. You are right about Soviet aces having the highest allied scores though.
I saw a Soviet film about the air war, its title was something like "Only old pilots fight". It was based on the memoirs of a Soviet ace and it showed how in his unit the new pilots from training were prevented by the units CO from going into action because they would be easy victims for the Luftwaffe. Soviet pilots arrived at the front with about 100 hours of flying time. An American pilot would not be operational until he had clocked up 300 hours.
The Soviet Pilots that survived and clocked up the flying hours had the potential to get big scores but they were starting from a massive disadvantage which allowed Hartmannand his ilk to get huge scores. I don't think the Soviets had a rotation system like the western allies so once at the front you fought until the end of the war or you were dead and injured.
Fantastic video..💫🙏
Might bear in mind that Germany retired the first pilot to reach milstone numbers. Mölders at 100 , Gollob 150, Graf 200, and Nowotny 250, The reason Hartmann could accumulate most victories was that at the time he crossed 300 there was no point in retiring him. Nowotny in particular had an absolutely insane rate of kills. Had he been allowed to continue and stay alive there was no way Hartmann would have been able to catch up with him.
a fair comparision isn't posible, at least being Marseille in a JG fighting in the western front..Hartmann had not to fight with planes like mustangs and latests versions of the spitfire, or tempest..maybe YAK 9, but again, a lot of reason do the comparision out of place