New tests show that Righteous Defense is based on spell hit, but this is believed to be a bug or oversight, as Righteous Defense was changed in patch 2.3 to be affected by physical hit instead of spell hit
I've been tanking shit as a prot pally since Classic, Like I tanked nef and huhu for my guild because the blessing threat. Like I spend so much of my life studying pally stuff. What I'm trying to say is that I learned some really valuable info from this video and I big appriciate you clearing some of this stuff up. in particular the spell hit and cons info was mind blowing. Thanks a ton sir.
This was amazing, thank you for putting it together. I'm dying to find a guide this detailed to understand pvp defenses and prot pally functionality because I'm unclear how much of it translates over. I'm trying to figure out what to focus on to be a difficult to kill player, not as focused on high damange.
For pvp, you basically just want as much resilience as you can get. It got buffed in Wrath and gives reduced damage taken in addition to the other effects it used to have. Keep in mind this video is for TBC, so some things have changed. For example, drink walking isn't a thing anymore
Nice video. Been getting back into my prot pally and really picking up some great stuff thanks to your vids. Quick question I don't seem to be able to find the WA for drink walking (great trick I didn't knew about btw so already big thanks for that one). Could you possibly link it?
Really nice video! I didn't know the exact number which gives you crush immunity, only that you had to have 490 defense skill to be immune. Every time I would get new gear I tried to be over that and now that I know it's not necessary if you have the % for crit immune, I could change a few pieces. Thank you so much!
You’re talking about 2 entirely different things. Crush immune is different than Crit immune which is what you get by getting 490 defense. Crush immune is 102.4 avoidance.
Thank you very much for the upload, super informative😀. Just a noob question, I often see pallies keep the Windfury buff rather than oil(what I usually do), do Windfury attacks proc seal of righteousness?
Hey happy to help! Windfury attacks will indeed proc seal of righteousness. Oil+wrath of air vs windfury is very close on single target (WF is generally slightly better but RNG based), so I'd just go with whatever makes the most sense for everyone else in your group. Windfury will make you take slightly more damage too due to parry haste, which is something to consider. For multi target bosses/trash you will definitely want wrath of air+oil
Hey, thanks! This is the sanc aura build I typically use: tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/-053051305000012252105-05205020300301 and this is the full mitigation build I typically use (2 in reckoning can be swapped to spell warding as needed): tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/-0530513350000122521551-05205 Main differences are the mitigation build will actually have better initial threat, since it has avenger's shield, while the sanc build will have better sustained threat. The mitigation build will be tankier of course due to shield specialization and ardent defender; however, the value of both of those talents can vary greatly depending on what you're fighting. For example, both talents were godlike for survivability when tanking murlocs on pre-nerf Tidewalker, but they're both far less useful against a boss like Magtheridon who does huge damage in single hits, which diminishes the value of block value and ardent defender (Mag can just take you from 40-0% and leap frog ardent defender). So our tankier variant really shines when we're taking lots of small, fast hits and is a lot less valuable when we're taking big, slow hits. Which build you choose will largely depend on what you're having the most trouble with, survivability or threat
I wish there was more easily digestible info on Armor and Spell hit, I noticed that wearing pvp vindicator makes me feel more tanky then with my T5 offpieces and i wonder if it is because of Armor and armor buff scalling in raids
This is a good resource for seeing how armor affects your ability to withstand burst damage: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fZDkcdOfR4o0VfZdp5wZFPaKd8DtEE-gqJKyQQUmliU/edit?usp=sharing It depends what you're tanking how valuable the extra armor will be. For tanking something like Azgalor, it's really valuable to get extra armor and stam at almost any cost. For something like Rage Winterchill, your armor won't really matter at all
I played prot pala for a while now and I never used any other seals than seal of righteousness and putting up seal of wisdom if its missing. It works fine for me but do I miss out on something if I dont use seal of vengeance?
There's a very small advantage to using SoV on some stuff. You can also Seal Twist SoR into SoV, but it's really mana intensive, so only really useful with a shadow priest or if you're taking a lot of damage. Personally, I almost never use SoV because it's such a headache. The whole RNG to reapply the DOT frustrates me to no end lol. Sometimes you'll swing for 8 seconds and get no procs and lose your 5 stack and wonder why you're even using SoV
Really awesome guide! I was wondering if you could do a guide on paladin openings, with or without avengers shield, when to twist vengeance into righteousness if that even happen, holy shield on pull, consecration before holy shield. That would help a lot of paladin aspirants like me for example!
Thanks! I'll add that to the list. Got a ton of vids I'm working on atm with phase 3 ptr out now. I can give you some simple answers for now though. You can't twist vengeance into righteousness, has to be righteousness into vengeance. Just use vengeance while righteousness is active and your swing timer has Avenger's Shield (if you have it)-> Consecrate-> Judgement -> Re-seal is my typical opener
Just need 5.6% combined crit reduction from resil and defense combined for bosses and 5.0/5.2/5.4% for lvl 70/71/72 mobs. As long as you're hitting those crit reduction numbers, you're good
What ring would you suggest taking from the Vials of Eternity quest? Spell power or the tanky one? Surely the spell power one is going to be really nice for threat when exalted
@@SubtleFW But what do you do? When he was showing it on the video he never 'sits to drink' so you just keep runing and spending waters? Do you lose a consumable each time?
Could be useful for some trash, we'll be fighting a ton of aoe trash next tier. A solid block value set might allow you to just single tank some huge packs like in hyjal. Haven't gotten a chance to play around on PTR yet though, hoping they bring that back up this week. Other than that, block value is great for soloing bosses. I think raptor boss will be soloable with some t6 gear and huge BV sets are always fun to cheese heroics
Shear cannot miss, so you'll need 101.8% avoidance without including chance to be missed. Block rating is gonna give you the most avoidance, followed by dodge, and then parry, so that's the order to prioritize. I talk about shear sets a bit in my T6 BIS vid: ruclips.net/video/ZVALsT8eZOQ/видео.html Here's the early shear set I'm aiming for (no T6 gear, since I don't know what I'll have early): seventyupgrades.com/set/iw3a2mrU4HZrfiq4yjVy5R
Wait so if I am crush immune I am automatically crit immune ? But in theory the gear will always have enough defense to make you crit immune either way ?
Short answer: as long as you have 102.4% total avoidance, you are both crit and crush immune regardless of reduced chance to be crit from defense and resilience. In most cases, you will get passive crit immunity from defense/resil (lots of sets use a pvp weapon, shield or both) enroute to reaching 102.4% avoidance without trying. However, in t6 gear, it is quite easy to make sets that are uncrushable and uncritable through active avoidance (holy shield) while being slightly passively crittable. Longer answer: It just goes down the defense table in order until the total is 100% (miss/dodge/parry/block are reduced by 0.2% per lvl mob has over you, hence why we need 102.4% for bosses to make up for the 2.4% total reduction), so it is possible you could be crush immune but still critable in a case where you were fighting a boss and had, let's say, 101.4% avoidance and 4.6% reduced chance to be crit. That would leave a 1% chance to be crit. So in that case you would actually be both critable and uncrushable at the same time, since your total outcomes would add up to 100% (99% boss avoidance + 1% chance to be crit) before we got to crushing blows on the defense table.
wtf of 5% until 12/15 hit... go jump... the part hard of this one is to know when ando how to change gear in every situation, u are a pro :) what happend with talents of shield specialitation is a 30% total dmg absorb wich dmg % is calcultate ? thanks MORE VIDEOS PLS
It just takes some time and experience to learn what gear to use when, you'll get there. Shield spec just increases shield block value by 30%, and block value damage reduction is applied after all other damage reductions, such as armor and improved righteous fury. It's situationally good, just depends what you're doing. I'll keep the vids coming!
@subtlefw just letting you know, the Hyjal rep dmg ring procs from any judgement renewals that are put onto a mob for that extra 95 spl dmg. Not sure if you knew that or not! Just wanted to share in case you think that would be worth the add to our bis gear. Believe end game that’s the route I’m going to take.
@@SubtleFW Honestly kind of figures this to be a game changer, figured this out on the p4 test server. Figured it would definitely be a game changer. That’s all judgement renewals. Including(crusader). So I figured it was worth reporting and kind of a game changer for pallys when it comes down to which ring to choose from Hyjal rep. Preciate what you do though bro. Keep up the good work! 💙
@@vipespcxbox6012 yah definitely appreciate the info. The time til proc after cd is available was my biggest concern when comparing it to spell hit ring options. Thank you for the support!
There's not really much to OT in Kara, but you could maybe OT some stuff on trash. Just make sure you have 5.4% reduced chance to be crit for that. Once you start MTing Kara, you'll want 102.4% avoidance for Malchezaar, but pretty much all of the other bosses you just need to be uncrittable (5.6% reduced crit chance)
Most important thing is to know the various benchmarks, such as 5% + 0.2% per lvl mob is above you for crit reduction and 102.4% avoidance for uncrush. Once you have a good understanding of both the benchmarks you're aiming for and the specific mob's capabilities, you can easily tailor your sets for the particular thing you're fighting. It does take time and experience to learn though, it isn't something you'll figure out overnight. Prot pally has a ton of depth in gearing decisions and that can make it either a really interesting or frustrating class depending on your playstyle and preferences
Haha sorry forgot to do that. Every 2 seconds you get a tick of mana and water just works as a mana regen buff (you can open up your character sheet and see you gain a ton of mana regen while drinking). With drink walking, we're just timing it so that when this 2 second tick happens, we have increased mana regen from the brief moment we have the drinking buff
New tests show that Righteous Defense is based on spell hit, but this is believed to be a bug or oversight, as Righteous Defense was changed in patch 2.3 to be affected by physical hit instead of spell hit
Yikes
Beautiful guide. Especially the reasons WHY. Thank you for finally discussing WHY the 2.4% is extra on the 100% avoidance
As a ret main who's being geared for prot backup, this is really really helpful info. Thanks!
Glad I could help!
@@SubtleFW Hey Subtle, thx as well, but please have a look at the addon "HidingBar"! Your minimapbuttons are haunting me :D
@@ICanHazMarzipan hahaha I'll check it out! Thanks for the recommendation, they haunt me too
I've been tanking shit as a prot pally since Classic, Like I tanked nef and huhu for my guild because the blessing threat. Like I spend so much of my life studying pally stuff. What I'm trying to say is that I learned some really valuable info from this video and I big appriciate you clearing some of this stuff up. in particular the spell hit and cons info was mind blowing. Thanks a ton sir.
Love to hear that! I'm always trying to improve myself and help others improve in the process
This was amazing, thank you for putting it together. I'm dying to find a guide this detailed to understand pvp defenses and prot pally functionality because I'm unclear how much of it translates over. I'm trying to figure out what to focus on to be a difficult to kill player, not as focused on high damange.
For pvp, you basically just want as much resilience as you can get. It got buffed in Wrath and gives reduced damage taken in addition to the other effects it used to have. Keep in mind this video is for TBC, so some things have changed. For example, drink walking isn't a thing anymore
This is a really great video. Especially the spel coefficients! Thanks!
Awesome video… I can’t wait to see your numbers for wrath… again thank you
Thanks, glad to help! Absolutely cannot wait for Wrath, gonna be such a good time!
drink walking was really something new for me :D thanks for sharing
happy to help!
Nice video. Been getting back into my prot pally and really picking up some great stuff thanks to your vids. Quick question I don't seem to be able to find the WA for drink walking (great trick I didn't knew about btw so already big thanks for that one). Could you possibly link it?
Fantastic video! Just what I was looking for! U are the prot paladin prophet and this a chapter of ur holy bible!
Haha thank you, glad I could help
Really nice video! I didn't know the exact number which gives you crush immunity, only that you had to have 490 defense skill to be immune. Every time I would get new gear I tried to be over that and now that I know it's not necessary if you have the % for crit immune, I could change a few pieces. Thank you so much!
You’re talking about 2 entirely different things. Crush immune is different than Crit immune which is what you get by getting 490 defense. Crush immune is 102.4 avoidance.
@@jhunt123456 ye you are right. wanted to say crit immune
What do you think about switching between seal of vengeance and righteousness to keep the vengeance dot up?
It's a small gain if done perfectly but a lot of extra work. I think it's better to just use SoR and spend your attention elsewhere
Thank you very much for the upload, super informative😀. Just a noob question, I often see pallies keep the Windfury buff rather than oil(what I usually do), do Windfury attacks proc seal of righteousness?
Hey happy to help! Windfury attacks will indeed proc seal of righteousness. Oil+wrath of air vs windfury is very close on single target (WF is generally slightly better but RNG based), so I'd just go with whatever makes the most sense for everyone else in your group. Windfury will make you take slightly more damage too due to parry haste, which is something to consider. For multi target bosses/trash you will definitely want wrath of air+oil
@@SubtleFW That's amazing, thank you so much.😁
hello, great guide, can you go in depth on difference between sanct aura and full mitigation build with high spell power?
Hey, thanks! This is the sanc aura build I typically use: tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/-053051305000012252105-05205020300301 and this is the full mitigation build I typically use (2 in reckoning can be swapped to spell warding as needed): tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/-0530513350000122521551-05205
Main differences are the mitigation build will actually have better initial threat, since it has avenger's shield, while the sanc build will have better sustained threat. The mitigation build will be tankier of course due to shield specialization and ardent defender; however, the value of both of those talents can vary greatly depending on what you're fighting. For example, both talents were godlike for survivability when tanking murlocs on pre-nerf Tidewalker, but they're both far less useful against a boss like Magtheridon who does huge damage in single hits, which diminishes the value of block value and ardent defender (Mag can just take you from 40-0% and leap frog ardent defender). So our tankier variant really shines when we're taking lots of small, fast hits and is a lot less valuable when we're taking big, slow hits. Which build you choose will largely depend on what you're having the most trouble with, survivability or threat
I wish there was more easily digestible info on Armor and Spell hit, I noticed that wearing pvp vindicator makes me feel more tanky then with my T5 offpieces and i wonder if it is because of Armor and armor buff scalling in raids
This is a good resource for seeing how armor affects your ability to withstand burst damage: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fZDkcdOfR4o0VfZdp5wZFPaKd8DtEE-gqJKyQQUmliU/edit?usp=sharing
It depends what you're tanking how valuable the extra armor will be. For tanking something like Azgalor, it's really valuable to get extra armor and stam at almost any cost. For something like Rage Winterchill, your armor won't really matter at all
I played prot pala for a while now and I never used any other seals than seal of righteousness and putting up seal of wisdom if its missing. It works fine for me but do I miss out on something if I dont use seal of vengeance?
There's a very small advantage to using SoV on some stuff. You can also Seal Twist SoR into SoV, but it's really mana intensive, so only really useful with a shadow priest or if you're taking a lot of damage. Personally, I almost never use SoV because it's such a headache. The whole RNG to reapply the DOT frustrates me to no end lol. Sometimes you'll swing for 8 seconds and get no procs and lose your 5 stack and wonder why you're even using SoV
Really awesome guide!
I was wondering if you could do a guide on paladin openings, with or without avengers shield, when to twist vengeance into righteousness if that even happen, holy shield on pull, consecration before holy shield.
That would help a lot of paladin aspirants like me for example!
Thanks! I'll add that to the list. Got a ton of vids I'm working on atm with phase 3 ptr out now. I can give you some simple answers for now though. You can't twist vengeance into righteousness, has to be righteousness into vengeance. Just use vengeance while righteousness is active and your swing timer has Avenger's Shield (if you have it)-> Consecrate-> Judgement -> Re-seal is my typical opener
I have 460 def but a decent resi and my tankeadin was telling me I'm uncriteable, I'm good or should I stack more def?
Just need 5.6% combined crit reduction from resil and defense combined for bosses and 5.0/5.2/5.4% for lvl 70/71/72 mobs. As long as you're hitting those crit reduction numbers, you're good
@@SubtleFW yup, 5.8 to be exactly, tyty!, i'll didn't know Resi was that good
@@oriba7815 yah resil is very efficient for just crit reduction but you miss out on the avoidance defense gives, so that's the tradeoff
What ring would you suggest taking from the Vials of Eternity quest? Spell power or the tanky one? Surely the spell power one is going to be really nice for threat when exalted
Spell power one for sure
Lol I was sitting for like half an hour thinking what to take. Ended up with spell power.
Does this drink walking still work? And i assume with every class and do you know by chance if it works in arena aswell? Thanks!
Yah it'll work anywhere with any class so long as it's pure water and not a combo food/water item like mage table food/water
@@SubtleFW But what do you do? When he was showing it on the video he never 'sits to drink' so you just keep runing and spending waters? Do you lose a consumable each time?
@@amorymckeever2665 yah it takes 1 water everytime you do it, so ideally get a bunch of conjured water from a mage at the start of a raid/dungeon
any thoughts if block value could be any good for phase 3? i built a block value set for morogrim and now its super useless.
Could be useful for some trash, we'll be fighting a ton of aoe trash next tier. A solid block value set might allow you to just single tank some huge packs like in hyjal. Haven't gotten a chance to play around on PTR yet though, hoping they bring that back up this week. Other than that, block value is great for soloing bosses. I think raptor boss will be soloable with some t6 gear and huge BV sets are always fun to cheese heroics
Illidan may not crush but what about his Shear ability? What would be the best defense to favour to mitigate that?
Shear cannot miss, so you'll need 101.8% avoidance without including chance to be missed. Block rating is gonna give you the most avoidance, followed by dodge, and then parry, so that's the order to prioritize. I talk about shear sets a bit in my T6 BIS vid: ruclips.net/video/ZVALsT8eZOQ/видео.html
Here's the early shear set I'm aiming for (no T6 gear, since I don't know what I'll have early): seventyupgrades.com/set/iw3a2mrU4HZrfiq4yjVy5R
Wait so if I am crush immune I am automatically crit immune ? But in theory the gear will always have enough defense to make you crit immune either way ?
Short answer: as long as you have 102.4% total avoidance, you are both crit and crush immune regardless of reduced chance to be crit from defense and resilience. In most cases, you will get passive crit immunity from defense/resil (lots of sets use a pvp weapon, shield or both) enroute to reaching 102.4% avoidance without trying. However, in t6 gear, it is quite easy to make sets that are uncrushable and uncritable through active avoidance (holy shield) while being slightly passively crittable.
Longer answer: It just goes down the defense table in order until the total is 100% (miss/dodge/parry/block are reduced by 0.2% per lvl mob has over you, hence why we need 102.4% for bosses to make up for the 2.4% total reduction), so it is possible you could be crush immune but still critable in a case where you were fighting a boss and had, let's say, 101.4% avoidance and 4.6% reduced chance to be crit. That would leave a 1% chance to be crit. So in that case you would actually be both critable and uncrushable at the same time, since your total outcomes would add up to 100% (99% boss avoidance + 1% chance to be crit) before we got to crushing blows on the defense table.
Such a great video thanks dude
wtf of 5% until 12/15 hit... go jump... the part hard of this one is to know when ando how to change gear in every situation, u are a pro :)
what happend with talents of shield specialitation is a 30% total dmg absorb wich dmg % is calcultate ? thanks
MORE VIDEOS PLS
It just takes some time and experience to learn what gear to use when, you'll get there. Shield spec just increases shield block value by 30%, and block value damage reduction is applied after all other damage reductions, such as armor and improved righteous fury. It's situationally good, just depends what you're doing. I'll keep the vids coming!
@subtlefw just letting you know, the Hyjal rep dmg ring procs from any judgement renewals that are put onto a mob for that extra 95 spl dmg. Not sure if you knew that or not! Just wanted to share in case you think that would be worth the add to our bis gear. Believe end game that’s the route I’m going to take.
That's good to know, I actually didn't know that. I've been using it in all my sets lately, and it is really strong. Thanks!
@@SubtleFW Honestly kind of figures this to be a game changer, figured this out on the p4 test server. Figured it would definitely be a game changer. That’s all judgement renewals. Including(crusader). So I figured it was worth reporting and kind of a game changer for pallys when it comes down to which ring to choose from Hyjal rep. Preciate what you do though bro. Keep up the good work! 💙
@@vipespcxbox6012 yah definitely appreciate the info. The time til proc after cd is available was my biggest concern when comparing it to spell hit ring options. Thank you for the support!
Do i need 102.4 avoidence for ot karazhan? I have 490 defense
There's not really much to OT in Kara, but you could maybe OT some stuff on trash. Just make sure you have 5.4% reduced chance to be crit for that. Once you start MTing Kara, you'll want 102.4% avoidance for Malchezaar, but pretty much all of the other bosses you just need to be uncrittable (5.6% reduced crit chance)
Damn 1 whole extra bag of gear life must be so hard
It's rough. Need those 24 slotters from pre patch
how to be a sweatlord 101.
How disappointing, gearing being situational.... how will I know that I'm enough for the job?
Most important thing is to know the various benchmarks, such as 5% + 0.2% per lvl mob is above you for crit reduction and 102.4% avoidance for uncrush. Once you have a good understanding of both the benchmarks you're aiming for and the specific mob's capabilities, you can easily tailor your sets for the particular thing you're fighting. It does take time and experience to learn though, it isn't something you'll figure out overnight. Prot pally has a ton of depth in gearing decisions and that can make it either a really interesting or frustrating class depending on your playstyle and preferences
Drink walking lmao what an insane waste of gold XD
Get your mages to make you some!
@@SubtleFW fair i guess XD
Thanks for the guide man, but why did you not exaplain the most interesting part - drinkwalking. -_- How it works? O.o
Haha sorry forgot to do that. Every 2 seconds you get a tick of mana and water just works as a mana regen buff (you can open up your character sheet and see you gain a ton of mana regen while drinking). With drink walking, we're just timing it so that when this 2 second tick happens, we have increased mana regen from the brief moment we have the drinking buff