Christ, as fast as those guys play, that seems like an easy one to miss. He has to roll a D6 as they’re not Phobos so must have been pretty psyched to roll a 6, and probably wasn’t even thinking about the max move of 5” for the Aggressors. That’s IMHO obviously.
I believe you have mis-ruled here, but I'm happy to be told why I'm wrong. In Warhammer, generic rules are overridden by specific rules, so the Core Rule limit of movement to the base movement characteristic would be overruled by the strategem changing the distance of the movement in its own wording. The core rule doesn't say "You can never move more than" or any other wording that suggests it isn't changeable, and I haven't seen any FAQ / Design Commentary stating this cannot be overruled by a specific strat / ability / effect, so why do you believe the strategem does not, as it says it does, alter the distance allowed by the normal move?
You sort of have the wrong end of this Mani vs John issue. John played the rule correctly, a judge ruled in his favor. Mani didn't like the ruling, and found another judge to rule on it, this other judge being wrong. John only moved his dudes 5" and then his Calgar 6". Which he was perfectly correct to do. The argument was about Calgar's movement, not all the Aggressors. John saying they can move 6" was merely a mistake in his wording, not in his play. He only moved them an actual 5". Mani essentially judge fished to get the answer he wanted after it was already ruled that John was correct. Not only was it a bad call on the part of Mani/the judge, it was completely out of line for him to judge fish to get the answer he wanted after it was already settled against him. Mani has another allegation against him at this event so let's just say it's not looking good for Mani right now. That one involves a secondary obbjective card that would have been bad for him had it been pulled going missing from his opponent's deck coincidentally while they took a short break. Not suspicious at all, no....
Ok but Mani did happen to be right. You can see in this very video that Calgar couldn't get >1 inch inside the wall. He is a 50mm base with 2 40mm bases behind him.
@@OccamsHammerIf you listen to the description of events, Calgar had just moved 6" forward into his position, meaning he should be able to move back with the roll of 6. This is part of why why good players narrate their moves, it makes it perfectly clear if moves like this are legal or not.
Is there not 2 or 3 head judges that the rest double check with? My experience is with larger events, there's a few judges that mostly point you to the rules/errata to answer your questions and if there's any grey area they get a higher judge to be the final ruling. In regards to Judge Phishing...if a judges rules wrong and you raise a question about later and it's found that the first one was wrong...doesn't make you the A**hole. I watch enough game streams from both these guys and more. Including events...there are always rules confusion/illumination that make it to the players directly from the chat group. I can Guarantee that these 2 and many others have people Watching the stream who have their phone numbers or at least someone elses on their team. You know there's people who probably hate watch just to catch people cheating or messing up rules. I'm 100% for it. In the end, the more catches leads to better players, better games and hopefully better written rules
The idea of games being reversed after the fact is extremely wierd and dangerous The ruling on the field stands. Whats the purpose of refs if thats not how it is?
@@garlicxlr no rule was actually broken though, the judges misrepresented the core rules of the game which caused the score flip, John Lennon did nothing wrong. It is some dumb RAW vs RAI symantic bullshit that should have been established in the tournament pack before the games even started.
The stratagem reading make a normal move up to D6” reads as if that replaces the movement characteristic. Is that not how it’s meant to be used? I don’t run Vanguard but a buddy does so it would be good to know how this kind of movement is supposed to work.
you can never move outside of your base movement, outside of charging, given you don't have a buff or aura, etc. However in mixed squads can move at their individual movements given they stay inside of coherency.
" a normal move up to D6” " so what's the unit's normal move capped at, as the D6" is up to not a flat move this D6". As per the video, the error is that because a character and his squad can do the 6" move max but the one being used could only go 5", it's an understandable oversight/confusion.
@@auretioustaak6579 a normal move for calgar is 5" not 6" and you can't exceed your normal move no matter conditions. Lennon doubted but Manni says nothing THIS TIME. After that, when lennon noticed his error, he went took a voluntary penality from himself with arbitor.
@@auretioustaak6579the calgar was the issue , there is no physical way to fit him in a legal way and "unchargable" when he has a 50mm base and 2 aggresors to movs around. That is the problem with intent play. People announce that they will place a unit in a specific way and then don't really check if, with regular move rules, it can actualy be performed. If he had to move eaxh model one by one starting with the models, he has started with, he would have found out that he can't set the unit up in a way that it A isn't charge wall blocking B has models standing on other models bases etc.
Update: Post-event I'm getting conflicting accounts about Liam Hackett's game regarding his card draws; until I verify exactly what happened I'll be cutting that portion of the video out. Will post an update later if it turns out the inital reports were inaccurate. Update on the update: I've reached out to a judge who was reportedly present for the game in question, but they refused to comment.
I'm of the belief that the stratagem is a replacement effect. And if he rolled a 6 he COULD move the full 6. The judge at the table thought this as well. Under "normal" circumstances you can never move further than your movement. But under normal circumstances you can't advance and charge OR advance and shoot. But we have things that replace the standard rules (assault and pistol weapons here respectively). IMO as a to and judge. The reason "normal move" is used there is to show what kind of a move it is for OTHER rules reasons (moving through your opponents models without fly for example. You couldn't do this as it's a normal move)
The interaction you desribed while true is one of the worst edge-cases of 9th/10th edition. Your ability tells you to roll something to know how far you can move but has that little word "normal move" that also means you are limited by your unit's move characteristic. It also makes some "scout without the scout tag" abilities very cumbersome to use.
Cheating requires intent, getting stuff wrong is not cheating. The current game has too many rules (wow really!?) and it's amazing that people at the top of the game can do so well to get them as right as they do. I'm sure our home pick up games include many mistakes, but no cheating at least.
That's because using the giant CHEATING word on his thumb makes you want to click it(click bait). Was the guy Cheating, he could have been, knowing the guy, it was, because these tourney players live, breath and eat this game, he know the rules just fine. That's my Take, but hey, maybe it was just a mistake.
I don't know in what country you live in but in my , if you take anabolics you can't then say your intention was nit to cheat. You do wrong , you cheat. There is even a flk saying about it "the tar shirt burns bright on the cheater" .
@@piotrjeske4599 Haha, I like the saying Piotr. We have the term "honest mistake", which is one where you did get something wrong, but you had no idea, no intent, you'd be shocked yourself to find out you got the thing wrong. We don't think badly of honest mistakes unless they're suspicious, half the time an honest mistake would disadvantage the player since it's random and unintended. But yeah, at tournaments, people have a responsibility to know their rules, but there are too many in 40k, it's harder and harder to be spot on all the time. I don't play tournaments so I don't have the stress of caring too much, we play for fun, we try our best to be accurate. I guess the reason we have murder vs manslaughter is the difference between intent and damage caused without intent, they are two different crimes, in gaming I'd say that an honest mistake is 'an error' (so you try to fix the game state and carry on), and an intended mistake is 'cheating' (so you get kicked out of the club and labelled a cheat), same goes for toilet dice, lol. All the best to you 😀👍
@@kinginyellow1490 Lenon was cheating SO hard (in front of his opponent, the referees and other players too btw, without anyone noticing, he is THAT good at cheating lmao) here that he in fact, he GAVE UP the game, himself, without anybody asking him to, after it was brought up to both players that he should not have been able to do what he did, even before there was discussion about the points or whatever else happened. And you know what, they still ended up facing each other after that in an incredible final. Really, it was just a mistake, and you clearly don't know the guy.
Re: Dice cheating specifically, Ive long said, we should treat dice in major tournaments like we do cards at a casino, combined with how bracelets are used for special events. Essemtially, charge a few bucks extra for entry, and issue event specific size and color dice which are not announced beforehand, forbid anyone bringing their own dice or using dice that do not meet the size, color and shape of the event speciifc dice. You break open your own personal cube of dice, you play those dice, you keep them after as a keepsake from the tournament. As for cards, I have always said we should require a players opponent draw a card at random from those available, rather than letting players draw their own. To prevent someone rigging their deck the way a magic player might attempt.
That would be incredibly expensive and wasteful - most players use upwards of 50/100 dice per game, you'd need thousands of unique dice making per event!
Nobody actually needs more than one brick of dice...and nobody said unique dice, just unnanounced shape/color/size so that nobody can easily bring their own and pass them off as event dice. Charge 10 bucks extra for the GT or RTT per dice cube that the entrant wants for the event, and ban outside dice, and nobody can ever complain about cheating dice again. Same as a casino. @@madslagsallupinthisgaff
What would count as hard evidence? Statements from either player or the judges wouldn't stop people from speculating. And that's all Trevy did was speculate "with a grain of salt." Other than analyzing the video, what evidence would clear it up? Genuinely asking.
@@shadwkeepr9107 you don’t speculate or report on any gossip or complaints until facts are cleared. In this case, a complete review of all tapes of the game. Both players questioned concerning the actions taken and their reasoning. All judges have to give a full accord of what they percieved to have transpired, and the actions and reasons for those actions in response.
He is saying it shouldn't be reported on at all, especially in the context of "cheating allegations" unless it came out officially as such. He is saying that anything else is just stoking the fires of rumor and not doing a service to the community as a whole.
Sounds like sheer error to me. Things like this could be avoided if GW didn't keep making it so hard for people to have the tools they need for easier gaming, without having to use their (often not as good, if even in existence) official merchandise. In this case, having a small (eg A6 size) reference card per unit in your army would make it incredibly easy to double check the stats of both your own and your opponent's forces at the drop of a hat. Meanwhile, placing down a card with the stratagem on it- and appropriate reference made in its text to the limitation of a normal move- would have ensured this error didn't occur. Actual USRs, rather than just for certain weapon abilities, would also be a significant advantage. In this case, if the stratagem was simply something like "allows the unit to make use of the 'Fallback' USR..." then not only would you need very wording for the stratagem, but all the equivalent's in other armies would be the same- making the game simpler and easier to balance as a result.
If johns unit was 1 inch behind the walls before he moved, and he max rolls an advance and moves them back to the same place, a 5" move, how is he not 1 inch from the walls if that is where he started his move?
I feel like Lennon would have won HARDER if he was forced to have 1 guy closer to the wall, that would FORCE the chosen to charge, and then only 1 or 2 models would be eligible to fight, and then the clap-back would wipe them. Shame it wasnt noticed at the time
I mean in my opinion. It’s a funky scenario, I feel like every game of Warhammer has a funky scenario that pops up. It’s really hard to make an exact call on what happened, and both players did play really well. I like that John was winning with non-parking lot marines too. He has a cool list and was doing cool things with it. Overall if both players are accepting of the outcome of the tournament then I feel like the community shouldn’t make a huge deal over it. They were able to settle this in effectively a BO3 later on and I think it was a really interesting finish.
I also dont really appreciate your super clickbait title. The contents of the video and title are completely different And when clickbait comes at the cost of peoples reputation, i think its gone too far Contents of the vid, totally fine and well done. Title, not fine
Since the stratagem changes the move characterisitic to whatever result is rolled the the Normal Movement rule shouldn't apply. That seems to be what Calvulated Feint is doing. It is describing a new movement value for out of phase Movement rahter than putting the unit into a new movement phase.
Liam Hackett was also suspected of smooth cheating at the WTC, last August. And player who played against him told the guy was very unpleasant to play against (the opposite of the same guy, one year before!)
otherwise, what is the truth? the stratagems that make a unit moves up to d6" or the base rule that say you can't move more than your mouvement characteristic? To me stratagem win over all. BTW, judges have changed their mind afterwards, but it was too late
It’s been a handful of hours since the event has finished, with all hearsay, and we’re feeling like it’s ok to drag people’s name’s through the dirt without anything conclusive? These players are people. Not fuel for clickbait.
If you are referring to John and Mani, no-one is dragging their names through the mud - it is made very clear that they both behaved very well throughout and there is no accusation of deliberate cheating.
@@silentaura5459 how about reading the full title of the video? I will grant you it may be a little misleading just because the original section on the cheating allegations (which apply to Liam Hackett) have been temporarily cut out while the claims are verified, but it is a report on claims of cheating, and there ARE claims of cheating, so it is reporting on this accurately. The misplays refers to the John Lennon Vs Mani Cheema game, and the video is extremely clear and explicit that both players conducted themselves very well.
Initially, did the unit move from behind the walls and then moved back using the Strategems? Would be interesting to know this because then it would be easy to judge.
Someone help me out - why does moving a unit behind cover stop the charge!? -Units do not need to be visible in order to charge -ruins: infantry and beasts can move through this normally. Unless they were actually 13" away I don't get it!?
They need to be within an inch of the wall to be charged and fought through the wall. If they are 1.1 inches away you can’t fit a model in the space so the charging unit needs to go around the wall.
I think if they are going to argue that they can only move 5" back because of the base move then how did they get 6" forward to start? What am I missing.. either way he rolled max both times so 5 or 6 they still would have moved out and back the same distance??
To reverse a play that was played out to both players understanding is beyond stupid for a tournament judge. Especially in a dice game. Even if they played it correctly, the following combat could have just as easily flubbed their dice rolls leaving the same result
Are you telling me if i have Ceaseless hunter on my Allarus Captain in a unit of Allarus Custodians, since they only have a movement of 5" on their datasheet, they can only make a 5" move with Ceaseless Hunter. First, that's not how I've been playing that. The ability says up to 6". Second, it does not say anywhere in the rules that i know of that ab out of sequence Normal Move is limited by the movement stat of the model. It's really unintuitive. I can see how it could be interpreted that way but it would be much easier to just state it plainly in the rules for types of movement.
NORMAL MOVES When a unit makes a Normal move, each model in that unit can move a distance in inches less than or equal to its Move (M) characteristic, but no model can be moved within Engagement Range of any enemy models (pg 7). Pg. 13 core rules.
All that the ability is saying is that movement is capped at 6in whether you move more or less than 6in. However, a unit cannot move more than their move characteristic per core rules. So 5in movement is capped at 5in etc whether you rolled a 5 or a 6.
If the ability said "the unit makes a normal move of up to 6"" then allarus would be capped at 5" . If it would just say move up to 6" then it can do 6".
this is RAW vs RAI symantics and should have been clarified in a tournament pack prior to the tournament taking place. As the clear intent is you can move the D6".
The judges discussed it with John and John at that time said "ah crap, my bad" and took the 10 point hit... However it was only afterwards that people realised that with Calgar being able to move 6inches that he may have been alright movement wise. From what people there have said, at no point was it Mani kicking off asking Judges to rule in his favour. It's just salty people spreading rumours to make out John was robbed and Mani is the villain.
The ruling during the game should stand. Such a scummy move for mani to go and complain getting a win on a technicality. Getting handed a game when it would have been played completely differently had the ruling happened at the time. Mani often comes off as a cry baby and this just confirms it imo.
Out of all the unconfirmed allegations to come out of that event, only bringing up one of them and then doing it by way of unnamed, Discord message is pretty cowardly. Shame that's where you're at with your content and channel.
When i did read the cheating in the title i thought there would have been at least some real cheating... Also reviewing a full game and give a penalty after it is settled for something like this is kind of toxic
"Normal move upto 6". So..... Your normal movement is 5 inches so you move 5 inches Your normal movement is 6 inches so you move 6 inches Your normal movement is 7 inches but you will only be allowed to move 6 inches It has to be a "normal move" which means your normal distance and I don't believe it can mean anything else Hope this helps
they should just move d6, anything else just seems idiotic. it will only say normal move so it can trigger anything that triggers off a normal move and avoid arguments about "well akshually its not a NORMAL move, its just a move" it needs to say up to because been forced to move 6 could also lead to idiotic argument where you need to say "i spin on the spot like a twat for 4" then move the extra 1" i actually wanted"
Clearly just a misplay. Pretty shitty to make this video with "cheating" in the title for something like this, especially when the tournament is still going on. No time for anyone to make any statements or commentary on their side lol. Like, come on
I don't think this qualifies as cheating. Seems more like honest mistakes. 40k is a very complex game, so even for experienced players it is easy to miss something if they are playing at a fast pace.
But can you honestly blame our host for the click bait title. Just think of views, the clicks, and that sweet sweet channel interaction as the AoW fans battle the AoW haters.
You should all be careful, saying people are cheating and such when most likely it is just a mistake. Allegations without substance can harm a person’s reputation. The competition organisers resolved any mistake and it is settled. Simple.
Liam Hackett was saw by about 5 people putting his drawn cards under his deck and getting 2 new cards. He got a yellow card for it, so it is confirmed.
THis feels a little like GW's fault for once again writting the rules badly. Cause if it said "If unit normal movement is shorter than your roll, then you must take the highest possible movement the unit can actually do, not the roll amount" this would heavily effect using this strat on gravis, terminators and centurions. But because it doesn't say that and all you get to understand this is the use of 'normal move' it can be very understandable that you wouldn't realize this is technically cheating. Yes this was for the annoying wall blocking strategy, but you can understand why he forgot, especially with the hype of actually getting the six. As for Marneus, to my understanding you must take the slowest unit as your movement range(outside of more niche movement I suppose if that's allowed, but generally just moving across the battlefield I guess just use the five instead of six) Which is weird cause to my understanding the leader uses the toughness average of his squad if they are being percisioned? So if marneus is leading a group of tacticus units his toughness would dragged down to four instead of six if someone used precision?
Mani did the "hard" tryharder all game and John, when he noticed his error, took a voluntary penality from himself with arbitor : It's fair play victory for Lennon. Otherwise, thx you for french wargame studio who filmed the game (it's prove this fact).
There were only 175 players at the event and hardly anyone left at the end. Cant believe you were actually there at the end to witness first hand everything that went on. Or your just commenting on peoples comments who were also not there.
Jesus Christ, 40k is turning into MTG its not a good thing and I have been warning people for years. Mani cheating or whining to get his way again..... shocking, utterly shocking.
At this level of play, in my opinion the cheating is deliberate. Could just be my PTSD from my days playing Magic the Gathering, but in my opinion players at this level should know the stratagems proper use. It's not massive, but it is classified as cheating.
I don't agree. Warhammer is a very messy game and requires allot of play by intent and making agreements with your opponent. You are playing for hours on end, mistakes happen all the time.
I played in worlds MTG in NYC over 10 years ago and the cheating there was rampant. I was very disappointed, and even more disappointed in the judges there. It wasn't long after that I stopped playing Magic, which i had played since Unlimited.
Playing warhammer is infinitely more complicated in terms of what you need to do, know, and manage than magic. Top players will still get rules and rule interactions wrong or just straight up forget things. Rules change between editions and formats too which makes it extra easy to fuck up. In this instance I find it really unlikely that John cheated purposefully
The video is way, way off from what really happy. I generally love the content both channels put out but it's been pretty evident for a long while that this channel has a significant dislike of the AoW team and this video is just bad.
It’s a valid tactic since a model cannot be inside a wall when moving. The opposite is worse since in 9th the rule was if you were within 1in of a wall and opponent was within 1in of the wall you were validly charged meaning chargers received 2 free inches to their charge rolls. That was reversed pretty quickly.
@@Jason-wh7in I agree that it's valid, and I agree that the ruling they made to fix it was worse. What I'm saying is that they should address it some other way to make this tactic impossible. I think Trevy had a good solution to this while back that included treating ruins like vehicles in the sense that you can embark/disembark units from them. So if you can make a charge to the wall the unit is hiding in, you can fight.
Every person on here saying Mani scouted out another judge to get a more favourable decision are just salty Americans or John fanboys, Mani had nothing to do with the second judge so stop crying over it.
Piss on AoW they do stuff like this and other things all thr time. Like Harpster trying to flip a game he lost at cherokee last year against one of the guy from my neck of the woods.
Lol. You sound butthurt you aren't as good as John. It's obvious Mani fished for a favorable ruling until he got it even though John gave himself a penalty for making a mistake
Christ, as fast as those guys play, that seems like an easy one to miss. He has to roll a D6 as they’re not Phobos so must have been pretty psyched to roll a 6, and probably wasn’t even thinking about the max move of 5” for the Aggressors. That’s IMHO obviously.
I believe you have mis-ruled here, but I'm happy to be told why I'm wrong. In Warhammer, generic rules are overridden by specific rules, so the Core Rule limit of movement to the base movement characteristic would be overruled by the strategem changing the distance of the movement in its own wording. The core rule doesn't say "You can never move more than" or any other wording that suggests it isn't changeable, and I haven't seen any FAQ / Design Commentary stating this cannot be overruled by a specific strat / ability / effect, so why do you believe the strategem does not, as it says it does, alter the distance allowed by the normal move?
You sort of have the wrong end of this Mani vs John issue. John played the rule correctly, a judge ruled in his favor. Mani didn't like the ruling, and found another judge to rule on it, this other judge being wrong. John only moved his dudes 5" and then his Calgar 6". Which he was perfectly correct to do. The argument was about Calgar's movement, not all the Aggressors. John saying they can move 6" was merely a mistake in his wording, not in his play. He only moved them an actual 5". Mani essentially judge fished to get the answer he wanted after it was already ruled that John was correct. Not only was it a bad call on the part of Mani/the judge, it was completely out of line for him to judge fish to get the answer he wanted after it was already settled against him. Mani has another allegation against him at this event so let's just say it's not looking good for Mani right now. That one involves a secondary obbjective card that would have been bad for him had it been pulled going missing from his opponent's deck coincidentally while they took a short break. Not suspicious at all, no....
Cry baby
Ok but Mani did happen to be right. You can see in this very video that Calgar couldn't get >1 inch inside the wall. He is a 50mm base with 2 40mm bases behind him.
fairplay (john) vs hard tryharder (mani as always), not more. Mani does the clown but he never plays for fun, always for the victory.
@@OccamsHammerIf you listen to the description of events, Calgar had just moved 6" forward into his position, meaning he should be able to move back with the roll of 6. This is part of why why good players narrate their moves, it makes it perfectly clear if moves like this are legal or not.
Is there not 2 or 3 head judges that the rest double check with? My experience is with larger events, there's a few judges that mostly point you to the rules/errata to answer your questions and if there's any grey area they get a higher judge to be the final ruling.
In regards to Judge Phishing...if a judges rules wrong and you raise a question about later and it's found that the first one was wrong...doesn't make you the A**hole.
I watch enough game streams from both these guys and more. Including events...there are always rules confusion/illumination that make it to the players directly from the chat group. I can Guarantee that these 2 and many others have people Watching the stream who have their phone numbers or at least someone elses on their team. You know there's people who probably hate watch just to catch people cheating or messing up rules. I'm 100% for it. In the end, the more catches leads to better players, better games and hopefully better written rules
The idea of games being reversed after the fact is extremely wierd and dangerous
The ruling on the field stands. Whats the purpose of refs if thats not how it is?
What do you mean? If you break a rule, the game is tainted. Especially if you win because of it.
@@garlicxlr no rule was actually broken though, the judges misrepresented the core rules of the game which caused the score flip, John Lennon did nothing wrong. It is some dumb RAW vs RAI symantic bullshit that should have been established in the tournament pack before the games even started.
The stratagem reading make a normal move up to D6” reads as if that replaces the movement characteristic. Is that not how it’s meant to be used? I don’t run Vanguard but a buddy does so it would be good to know how this kind of movement is supposed to work.
you can never move outside of your base movement, outside of charging, given you don't have a buff or aura, etc. However in mixed squads can move at their individual movements given they stay inside of coherency.
" a normal move up to D6” " so what's the unit's normal move capped at, as the D6" is up to not a flat move this D6". As per the video, the error is that because a character and his squad can do the 6" move max but the one being used could only go 5", it's an understandable oversight/confusion.
100% oversight/confusion. How this was considered a 10pt deduction is beyond me.
@@auretioustaak6579
@@auretioustaak6579 a normal move for calgar is 5" not 6" and you can't exceed your normal move no matter conditions. Lennon doubted but Manni says nothing THIS TIME. After that, when lennon noticed his error, he went took a voluntary penality from himself with arbitor.
@@auretioustaak6579the calgar was the issue , there is no physical way to fit him in a legal way and "unchargable" when he has a 50mm base and 2 aggresors to movs around. That is the problem with intent play. People announce that they will place a unit in a specific way and then don't really check if, with regular move rules, it can actualy be performed. If he had to move eaxh model one by one starting with the models, he has started with, he would have found out that he can't set the unit up in a way that it A isn't charge wall blocking B has models standing on other models bases etc.
Update: Post-event I'm getting conflicting accounts about Liam Hackett's game regarding his card draws; until I verify exactly what happened I'll be cutting that portion of the video out. Will post an update later if it turns out the inital reports were inaccurate.
Update on the update: I've reached out to a judge who was reportedly present for the game in question, but they refused to comment.
Maybe update the title too since no one was "cheating."
I'm of the belief that the stratagem is a replacement effect. And if he rolled a 6 he COULD move the full 6. The judge at the table thought this as well. Under "normal" circumstances you can never move further than your movement. But under normal circumstances you can't advance and charge OR advance and shoot. But we have things that replace the standard rules (assault and pistol weapons here respectively).
IMO as a to and judge. The reason "normal move" is used there is to show what kind of a move it is for OTHER rules reasons (moving through your opponents models without fly for example. You couldn't do this as it's a normal move)
The interaction you desribed while true is one of the worst edge-cases of 9th/10th edition.
Your ability tells you to roll something to know how far you can move but has that little word "normal move" that also means you are limited by your unit's move characteristic.
It also makes some "scout without the scout tag" abilities very cumbersome to use.
I did not know that restriction. If by some miracle I had ended up in that situation, I would have made the same mistake.
@@bilbostomperme too
Cheating requires intent, getting stuff wrong is not cheating. The current game has too many rules (wow really!?) and it's amazing that people at the top of the game can do so well to get them as right as they do. I'm sure our home pick up games include many mistakes, but no cheating at least.
That's because using the giant CHEATING word on his thumb makes you want to click it(click bait). Was the guy Cheating, he could have been, knowing the guy, it was, because these tourney players live, breath and eat this game, he know the rules just fine. That's my Take, but hey, maybe it was just a mistake.
I don't know in what country you live in but in my , if you take anabolics you can't then say your intention was nit to cheat. You do wrong , you cheat. There is even a flk saying about it "the tar shirt burns bright on the cheater" .
@@piotrjeske4599 Haha, I like the saying Piotr. We have the term "honest mistake", which is one where you did get something wrong, but you had no idea, no intent, you'd be shocked yourself to find out you got the thing wrong. We don't think badly of honest mistakes unless they're suspicious, half the time an honest mistake would disadvantage the player since it's random and unintended. But yeah, at tournaments, people have a responsibility to know their rules, but there are too many in 40k, it's harder and harder to be spot on all the time. I don't play tournaments so I don't have the stress of caring too much, we play for fun, we try our best to be accurate. I guess the reason we have murder vs manslaughter is the difference between intent and damage caused without intent, they are two different crimes, in gaming I'd say that an honest mistake is 'an error' (so you try to fix the game state and carry on), and an intended mistake is 'cheating' (so you get kicked out of the club and labelled a cheat), same goes for toilet dice, lol. All the best to you 😀👍
@@piotrjeske4599 also worth noting that in my country, it's not really possible to take anabolics by accident either, so bad example really.
@@kinginyellow1490 Lenon was cheating SO hard (in front of his opponent, the referees and other players too btw, without anyone noticing, he is THAT good at cheating lmao) here that he in fact, he GAVE UP the game, himself, without anybody asking him to, after it was brought up to both players that he should not have been able to do what he did, even before there was discussion about the points or whatever else happened. And you know what, they still ended up facing each other after that in an incredible final.
Really, it was just a mistake, and you clearly don't know the guy.
Seems innocent enough. I mean I hate the wall hiding base blocking sweaty crap, but this is the championships so expected.
And just highlights what a trash game system it is! 36 years and 10 Editions, countless FAQs etc. and still the game is filled with this trash!
Re: Dice cheating specifically, Ive long said, we should treat dice in major tournaments like we do cards at a casino, combined with how bracelets are used for special events. Essemtially, charge a few bucks extra for entry, and issue event specific size and color dice which are not announced beforehand, forbid anyone bringing their own dice or using dice that do not meet the size, color and shape of the event speciifc dice. You break open your own personal cube of dice, you play those dice, you keep them after as a keepsake from the tournament.
As for cards, I have always said we should require a players opponent draw a card at random from those available, rather than letting players draw their own. To prevent someone rigging their deck the way a magic player might attempt.
That would be incredibly expensive and wasteful - most players use upwards of 50/100 dice per game, you'd need thousands of unique dice making per event!
Nobody actually needs more than one brick of dice...and nobody said unique dice, just unnanounced shape/color/size so that nobody can easily bring their own and pass them off as event dice. Charge 10 bucks extra for the GT or RTT per dice cube that the entrant wants for the event, and ban outside dice, and nobody can ever complain about cheating dice again. Same as a casino. @@madslagsallupinthisgaff
Wow, so instead of getting hard evidence just report the quick and messy gossip. Not what the commity needs.
What would count as hard evidence? Statements from either player or the judges wouldn't stop people from speculating. And that's all Trevy did was speculate "with a grain of salt." Other than analyzing the video, what evidence would clear it up? Genuinely asking.
@@shadwkeepr9107 you don’t speculate or report on any gossip or complaints until facts are cleared. In this case, a complete review of all tapes of the game. Both players questioned concerning the actions taken and their reasoning. All judges have to give a full accord of what they percieved to have transpired, and the actions and reasons for those actions in response.
What was reported was what could be seen from the stream, this was specifically pointed out.
He is saying it shouldn't be reported on at all, especially in the context of "cheating allegations" unless it came out officially as such. He is saying that anything else is just stoking the fires of rumor and not doing a service to the community as a whole.
Sounds like sheer error to me.
Things like this could be avoided if GW didn't keep making it so hard for people to have the tools they need for easier gaming, without having to use their (often not as good, if even in existence) official merchandise.
In this case, having a small (eg A6 size) reference card per unit in your army would make it incredibly easy to double check the stats of both your own and your opponent's forces at the drop of a hat.
Meanwhile, placing down a card with the stratagem on it- and appropriate reference made in its text to the limitation of a normal move- would have ensured this error didn't occur.
Actual USRs, rather than just for certain weapon abilities, would also be a significant advantage.
In this case, if the stratagem was simply something like "allows the unit to make use of the 'Fallback' USR..." then not only would you need very wording for the stratagem, but all the equivalent's in other armies would be the same- making the game simpler and easier to balance as a result.
Any mention of the Rigg vs Mani game where a secondary card disappeared from Riggs deck when he left to the bathroom.
You cant reverse the game score like that. What if John rolls hot on saves or Mani rolls cold on wounds and will not wipe them?
If johns unit was 1 inch behind the walls before he moved, and he max rolls an advance and moves them back to the same place, a 5" move, how is he not 1 inch from the walls if that is where he started his move?
I feel like Lennon would have won HARDER if he was forced to have 1 guy closer to the wall, that would FORCE the chosen to charge, and then only 1 or 2 models would be eligible to fight, and then the clap-back would wipe them. Shame it wasnt noticed at the time
I mean in my opinion. It’s a funky scenario, I feel like every game of Warhammer has a funky scenario that pops up. It’s really hard to make an exact call on what happened, and both players did play really well. I like that John was winning with non-parking lot marines too. He has a cool list and was doing cool things with it. Overall if both players are accepting of the outcome of the tournament then I feel like the community shouldn’t make a huge deal over it. They were able to settle this in effectively a BO3 later on and I think it was a really interesting finish.
Agreed, 40K is full of busted nonsense rules that prevent it from being able to be taken seriously.
I also dont really appreciate your super clickbait title. The contents of the video and title are completely different
And when clickbait comes at the cost of peoples reputation, i think its gone too far
Contents of the vid, totally fine and well done. Title, not fine
this is just one more thing the WTC does better than GW. In WTC infantery and beast can stand inside wall, so this move would have been pointless
Since the stratagem changes the move characterisitic to whatever result is rolled the the Normal Movement rule shouldn't apply.
That seems to be what Calvulated Feint is doing. It is describing a new movement value for out of phase Movement rahter than putting the unit into a new movement phase.
Liam Hackett was also suspected of smooth cheating at the WTC, last August. And player who played against him told the guy was very unpleasant to play against (the opposite of the same guy, one year before!)
otherwise, what is the truth? the stratagems that make a unit moves up to d6" or the base rule that say you can't move more than your mouvement characteristic? To me stratagem win over all. BTW, judges have changed their mind afterwards, but it was too late
It’s been a handful of hours since the event has finished, with all hearsay, and we’re feeling like it’s ok to drag people’s name’s through the dirt without anything conclusive?
These players are people. Not fuel for clickbait.
whose name is getting dragged through the dirt here?
If you are referring to John and Mani, no-one is dragging their names through the mud - it is made very clear that they both behaved very well throughout and there is no accusation of deliberate cheating.
How about the click bait title that says tt is reporting on cheating?
@@silentaura5459 how about reading the full title of the video? I will grant you it may be a little misleading just because the original section on the cheating allegations (which apply to Liam Hackett) have been temporarily cut out while the claims are verified, but it is a report on claims of cheating, and there ARE claims of cheating, so it is reporting on this accurately. The misplays refers to the John Lennon Vs Mani Cheema game, and the video is extremely clear and explicit that both players conducted themselves very well.
Mani being a Prick again, Imagine my shock
Initially, did the unit move from behind the walls and then moved back using the Strategems? Would be interesting to know this because then it would be easy to judge.
Someone help me out - why does moving a unit behind cover stop the charge!?
-Units do not need to be visible in order to charge
-ruins: infantry and beasts can move through this normally.
Unless they were actually 13" away I don't get it!?
They need to be within an inch of the wall to be charged and fought through the wall. If they are 1.1 inches away you can’t fit a model in the space so the charging unit needs to go around the wall.
@@dr254 right! Thank you! Jeez that's super gamey but that's tournaments I guess.
Aggressors have 5" move and when put with characters with leader keyboard it moves to 6" but don't the aggressors have jump jet
I think if they are going to argue that they can only move 5" back because of the base move then how did they get 6" forward to start? What am I missing.. either way he rolled max both times so 5 or 6 they still would have moved out and back the same distance??
the first move was a 1" Advance (so the Aggressors moved a total of 6").
@@TacticalTortoiselmao you will reply to this but not top comment?
To reverse a play that was played out to both players understanding is beyond stupid for a tournament judge. Especially in a dice game. Even if they played it correctly, the following combat could have just as easily flubbed their dice rolls leaving the same result
Well either way looks like they both enjoyed the game and were really good about the whole thing.
Are you telling me if i have Ceaseless hunter on my Allarus Captain in a unit of Allarus Custodians, since they only have a movement of 5" on their datasheet, they can only make a 5" move with Ceaseless Hunter. First, that's not how I've been playing that. The ability says up to 6". Second, it does not say anywhere in the rules that i know of that ab out of sequence Normal Move is limited by the movement stat of the model. It's really unintuitive. I can see how it could be interpreted that way but it would be much easier to just state it plainly in the rules for types of movement.
NORMAL MOVES
When a unit makes a Normal move, each model in that unit
can move a distance in inches less than or equal to its Move (M)
characteristic, but no model can be moved within Engagement
Range of any enemy models (pg 7).
Pg. 13 core rules.
@@phaedrosx It does state that the unit can be moved up to 6".
All that the ability is saying is that movement is capped at 6in whether you move more or less than 6in. However, a unit cannot move more than their move characteristic per core rules. So 5in movement is capped at 5in etc whether you rolled a 5 or a 6.
If the ability said "the unit makes a normal move of up to 6"" then allarus would be capped at 5" . If it would just say move up to 6" then it can do 6".
rules are rules and interpretations are NOT rules. Read the rules book again man.
this is RAW vs RAI symantics and should have been clarified in a tournament pack prior to the tournament taking place. As the clear intent is you can move the D6".
Complex rules = increased probability of errors, mistakes, and misunderstanding.
Bro John got highway robbed either way
He really didn’t.
The judges discussed it with John and John at that time said "ah crap, my bad" and took the 10 point hit... However it was only afterwards that people realised that with Calgar being able to move 6inches that he may have been alright movement wise. From what people there have said, at no point was it Mani kicking off asking Judges to rule in his favour. It's just salty people spreading rumours to make out John was robbed and Mani is the villain.
@@danpsyker6122 the judges making a mistake and robbing John doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive with it being Mani’s fault…
@@MrTumnus1987 the judges made a wrong call and he possibly lost his shot to be the one world champion because of it- sounds like robbery to me lol
Tbh, I didn’t even know that the D6 roll is still limited by your movement.
This entire take is so ridiculously off point it should be embarrassing.
Do you prefer the one where Mani is the villain then and had everything to do with the Judges ruling etc?
The ruling during the game should stand. Such a scummy move for mani to go and complain getting a win on a technicality. Getting handed a game when it would have been played completely differently had the ruling happened at the time. Mani often comes off as a cry baby and this just confirms it imo.
Where has it been confirmed he did that? People are trying to discredit based off an echo chamber purely of rumour and conjecture.
Out of all the unconfirmed allegations to come out of that event, only bringing up one of them and then doing it by way of unnamed, Discord message is pretty cowardly.
Shame that's where you're at with your content and channel.
Seems like an honest mistake to me with the player getting caught up in the moment. Wouldn't call it cheating.
just another day in tournament Warhams... the Studio has jacked the game up so badly that even the actual "pro players" can never get it right.
What a joke! Its this kind of garbage that prevents 40K from being able to be taken seriously! Broken ruleset time and time again, what rubbish!
Out of the AoW guys John seems like the only straight shooter. I’d be interested to see what actually went down.
Seigs is a dude too
When i did read the cheating in the title i thought there would have been at least some real cheating... Also reviewing a full game and give a penalty after it is settled for something like this is kind of toxic
"Normal move upto 6". So.....
Your normal movement is 5 inches so you move 5 inches
Your normal movement is 6 inches so you move 6 inches
Your normal movement is 7 inches but you will only be allowed to move 6 inches
It has to be a "normal move" which means your normal distance and I don't believe it can mean anything else
Hope this helps
they should just move d6, anything else just seems idiotic. it will only say normal move so it can trigger anything that triggers off a normal move and avoid arguments about "well akshually its not a NORMAL move, its just a move"
it needs to say up to because been forced to move 6 could also lead to idiotic argument where you need to say "i spin on the spot like a twat for 4" then move the extra 1" i actually wanted"
Clearly just a misplay. Pretty shitty to make this video with "cheating" in the title for something like this, especially when the tournament is still going on. No time for anyone to make any statements or commentary on their side lol. Like, come on
I'm pretty sure that's directed at Mani and not John and Liam Hackett did cheat and intentionally.
Liam Hackett was found to have intentionally cheated, which was covered in this video. No-where does it allege that John or Mani cheated.
OOT but am I the only one that see that no one ever respect the standard 2" coherency in tournament games?
I don't think this qualifies as cheating. Seems more like honest mistakes. 40k is a very complex game, so even for experienced players it is easy to miss something if they are playing at a fast pace.
But can you honestly blame our host for the click bait title. Just think of views, the clicks, and that sweet sweet channel interaction as the AoW fans battle the AoW haters.
You should all be careful, saying people are cheating and such when most likely it is just a mistake. Allegations without substance can harm a person’s reputation. The competition organisers resolved any mistake and it is settled. Simple.
Liam Hackett was saw by about 5 people putting his drawn cards under his deck and getting 2 new cards. He got a yellow card for it, so it is confirmed.
THis feels a little like GW's fault for once again writting the rules badly. Cause if it said "If unit normal movement is shorter than your roll, then you must take the highest possible movement the unit can actually do, not the roll amount" this would heavily effect using this strat on gravis, terminators and centurions. But because it doesn't say that and all you get to understand this is the use of 'normal move' it can be very understandable that you wouldn't realize this is technically cheating.
Yes this was for the annoying wall blocking strategy, but you can understand why he forgot, especially with the hype of actually getting the six.
As for Marneus, to my understanding you must take the slowest unit as your movement range(outside of more niche movement I suppose if that's allowed, but generally just moving across the battlefield I guess just use the five instead of six) Which is weird cause to my understanding the leader uses the toughness average of his squad if they are being percisioned? So if marneus is leading a group of tacticus units his toughness would dragged down to four instead of six if someone used precision?
yeah unfortunately after warhammer opened up for "Everyone" this shit is in 100% of tournaments now..... reason i straight up Quit playing TTB...
Why is John shouting through that whole clip 😂
It's a tournament... its loud..
Mani did the "hard" tryharder all game and John, when he noticed his error, took a voluntary penality from himself with arbitor : It's fair play victory for Lennon.
Otherwise, thx you for french wargame studio who filmed the game (it's prove this fact).
I’m glad this is a simplified game system 😂
For Christ sake just let them play why everything gotta involve AI overseeing everything
So why did he need to move 6? Can’t they move through ruins walls?
if they're too close to the wall, chosen still can fight them, as they're also infantry
Sound like gripeing to me lost so moaned and moaned at a judge
There were only 175 players at the event and hardly anyone left at the end. Cant believe you were actually there at the end to witness first hand everything that went on. Or your just commenting on peoples comments who were also not there.
the state of competitive 40k sure is great! lmao.
Score reversal was beyond fair
Trying to incriminate someone's mistake for more clicks. Really shitty thing to do.
Jesus Christ, 40k is turning into MTG its not a good thing and I have been warning people for years. Mani cheating or whining to get his way again..... shocking, utterly shocking.
It's only cheating if it's intentional and consistent.
Anyone can make an error every now and then....
The cheating allogation is towards Liam Hackett, not John or Mani. Liam Hackett purposely put cards under his deck to allow him to draw 2 new cards.
ask me how i know your bald
Seem like a mistake to me.
At this level of play, in my opinion the cheating is deliberate. Could just be my PTSD from my days playing Magic the Gathering, but in my opinion players at this level should know the stratagems proper use. It's not massive, but it is classified as cheating.
I don't agree. Warhammer is a very messy game and requires allot of play by intent and making agreements with your opponent. You are playing for hours on end, mistakes happen all the time.
I played in worlds MTG in NYC over 10 years ago and the cheating there was rampant. I was very disappointed, and even more disappointed in the judges there. It wasn't long after that I stopped playing Magic, which i had played since Unlimited.
Playing warhammer is infinitely more complicated in terms of what you need to do, know, and manage than magic. Top players will still get rules and rule interactions wrong or just straight up forget things. Rules change between editions and formats too which makes it extra easy to fuck up. In this instance I find it really unlikely that John cheated purposefully
Have you ever played a tournament @niknot.9920 ? you get stressed and forget stuff all the time.
The video is way, way off from what really happy. I generally love the content both channels put out but it's been pretty evident for a long while that this channel has a significant dislike of the AoW team and this video is just bad.
I think the ruling is dumb, and the tactic being employed is dumb. You shouldnt be able to use terrain to make yourself unchargable, period.
It’s a valid tactic since a model cannot be inside a wall when moving. The opposite is worse since in 9th the rule was if you were within 1in of a wall and opponent was within 1in of the wall you were validly charged meaning chargers received 2 free inches to their charge rolls. That was reversed pretty quickly.
@@Jason-wh7in I agree that it's valid, and I agree that the ruling they made to fix it was worse. What I'm saying is that they should address it some other way to make this tactic impossible. I think Trevy had a good solution to this while back that included treating ruins like vehicles in the sense that you can embark/disembark units from them. So if you can make a charge to the wall the unit is hiding in, you can fight.
Epic finals
Competitive warhammer players cheating...surely not 😅
Cheating at a 40k tournament? That *never* happens (sarcasm).
Here it is. Knew this was coming
Every person on here saying Mani scouted out another judge to get a more favourable decision are just salty Americans or John fanboys, Mani had nothing to do with the second judge so stop crying over it.
Not surprised an Aussie got caught cheating...
Big clickbait here
Scummy Click bait conjecture.
Piss on AoW they do stuff like this and other things all thr time. Like Harpster trying to flip a game he lost at cherokee last year against one of the guy from my neck of the woods.
What happened?
You mean voluntarily take a penalty at even the suggestion something what misplayed? Even if a judge ok'd it in the moment?
Shit take.
Lol. You sound butthurt you aren't as good as John.
It's obvious Mani fished for a favorable ruling until he got it even though John gave himself a penalty for making a mistake
Cool as always. 👍