Soaking Penny Blacks off an 1840s Wrapper:
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2024
- During my trip to the 2022 Stampex in London, I watched Bill Barrell remove Penny Black Stamps from an 1840s cover, this reveals an interesting lesson in the world of philatelic rarities and how they can deceive buyers. Also, using Hydrogen Peroxide, Bill removes years of sulfurization to reveal the true colors of the maltese crosses.
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I've used the peroxide method for years. Bill uses 12% strength, but you can buy a weaker mix, I use 3%. That means the reaction isn't as fast and you have a bit of time to watch the progress and judge when you're happy it's done. Some stamps take a little longer than others. As Bill noted, this is only for the Line Engraved stamps.
Question: Does the reaction automatically stop when the true color of the stamp is reached ? From Bill Barrell's explanation I take it that is not the case ... if that is true, then how do you determine when the stamp has reached the correct color ? It looks to me that this would be purely subjective, no ? If I wait a bit longer I get a lighter stamp, if I wash the stamp sooner I get a darker stamp. But then ... would this not be (almost) purely for aesthetics and not a objective repair of the stamp ?
@@michaelpurm2779 no the reaction doesn't stop, although it slows down as the impurity is reacted away. It's one reason I use a weaker solution. When you collect enough of these stamps you recognise the colour range. If you leave it long enough it risks damaging the fibres. The target is the surface reactants that over 150+ years have left a dark appearance. Hence painting it on top works. You'll notice that Bill said 30s in the peroxide....that's all it needs for the stronger solution. A weaker solution allows you to monitor progress and remove when ready.....still not very long. You find that stamps, especially the later reds (SG40 and plates) and the blues of the same period are the worst affected, largely due to the materials in the ink. You can find some crazy dark examples that the less well educated describe as rare shades when they really aren't. Ultimately, it's a perfectly ok thing to do as its just getting rid of the gunk. It's not repairing the stamp in any way.
Thank you Scott!! Totally pinning this conversation for others to see.
Hi Scott. You know me, but I try to stay anonymous on here!
The main problem is on 2d blues. I start off with warm water (the reaction is quicker when warm) only. I then add 8 vols hydrogen peroxide drop by drop and swirl gently. Once the discoloration is removed and the true colour restored, I quickly pour out the fluid and add distilled water to stop the reaction. I've restored some lovely examples that way, including a beautiful strip of 3 SG23as which I got for £25 in horribly discoloured condition and restored to pristine glory.
This was a rollercoaster episode for my anxiety. Well done Bill and Graham.
😂 Same!
Same here... it was like thriller :D
Ha! Yes I think we all went through a thriller with Bill 😆
Very hitchcockian. Starts with an earthquake an rises... First: "Why is he soaking cover with Penny Black??? Somebody stop him!! AHH... OK... Makes sense.... "
But it wasn't much easier later on... 😁
Glad I wasn't the only one who was freaking out.....
It was awesome witnessing this rare scene, and even better to review from an #philately episode. 🙌
Your supporting camera work was on point 👌. Thank you Richard!! 🙏😊
Fascinating detective work by Bill
He certainly knows his way around a Penny Black 🔎😊. Thanks for watching!
A superb vignette. I admit to being very apprehensive watching Mr. Barrell subject Penny Blacks, 182 years old, to hydrogen peroxide, but he is obviously a real pro.
Thanks Chai, I’m right there with you! As some one else wrote here, it was a bit of a rollercoaster for my anxiety 😆. Thanks for watching!
Who would have thought a video on stamps would have my heart racing from nerves. All of the things he did to those penny blacks! Obviously though, an experienced professional. I learned a lot from this today!
It was a great episode
Oh totally, watching this in person gave me the jitters 😅. Thanks for watching, Lisa!
@@ExploringStampsThe water and peroxide didn't bother me but how he was flipping the wet stamps about had me a little on edge
Have not seen or heard of that peroxide trick. Wow. He knows what he is doing. Quality detective work right there! Great video Graham!
Thank you Kyle, I was merely a student here, Bill clearly knows his way around old line engraved stamps.
Excellent video, and great information from a line engrave stamp expert.
Be very very careful with the use of Hydrogen Peroxide. on postage stamps.
I have read about some concerns regarding the long terms effect on the strength of the paper.
So be mindful of Bill's advice to limit the exposure to 30 seconds or less. And be sure of the inks on the stamps you are cleaning!
There is also a viewpoint that the discolouration or sulphurization of he stamp reflects part of it's 182 year journey. Our role as collectors is to be careful custodians of the material for the relatively brief period that we own them!
Thank you Paul. And yes I think that viewpoint is valid for discussion. I can totally understand both sides of the debate, perhaps something I can explore in the future 🤔
I agree. Im not a stamp collector but I am a collector. Although after watching this....I feel the need to start researching and buying.
Loved the forensic work. Putting a row of four Penny Blacks into water was scary enough, then putting them into a bath of Hydrogen Peroxide was crazy, loved the result. Great video Graham.
Thank you Frank. The forensic element was super fascinating to watch, Bill is a philatelic detective 🕵️♂️
Thanks for watching
Love your videos ...thank you
A very nice educative video on how to spot alterations to a PB cover. Many thanks to Bill for shining light on this. 👍👍👍
Thank you 😊, glad you found it informative
Well done Bill!! So interesting to watch.
He is clearly a master of his trade 👏. Thanks for watching Penny!
I am visiting the UK right now and wished I’d have been able to visit the show. I’ve done business as a client (in Australia) with Bill and his staff and its good to actually see him in the flesh. As to other matters: I purchased a embossed issue of 1848-55 on cover, and like the wrapper in the video I think mine (and others have told me so) is not tied and contrived - original stamps and original cover later combined. I have kept this item as a warning to myself.
Thank you for sharing, Peter. I think this is a lesson for all of us, as these contrived items seem to be a lot more common than we would like.
Bill and his team are awesome, it was a terrific experience to see him explore this wrapper. Thanks for watching!
Brilliant video. Bill is such a great dealer and person.
He is! It was really cool watching him work, a master of his trade. Thanks for watching!
Incredibly interesting and informative! Witnessing the detective work of an expert philatelist was so eye opening and educational. Thanks Bill and Graham.
Thanks Gary 😊 glad to see that you found it interesting! Thanks for watching.
Many thanks for these explanations. I had heard of this method but I did not know the technique. Always so instructive, congratulations for your work. I can't wait to see the next video which will undoubtedly be the continuation of the visit!
You are very welcome!
My next vid is probably season episode of Exploring Stamps (which is almost fully edited) and then I’ll post another about Stampex, I have A Lot of footage to edit 😊. Thanks for watching!!!
It was really a great episode, Graham! When bill got the Hydrozen Peroxide, my heartbeat gone up 😂
But I'm mostly amazed just how he predicted that the maltese cross was red, not brown. However, a great episode, enjoyed a lot 😄
Glad you enjoyed it! I was also impressed with how Bill predicted and figured out the cover, clearly a master of his trade 😊. Thanks for watching!!
Heard about using Hydrogen Peroxide many times, really nice to see it in action. Thanks Bill and Graham
You are very welcome Philip, I hadn’t really paid attention to the idea of Hydrogen Peroxide, but after this I now need to do some reading up on it. Thanks for watching 😊
Very informative, thanks for sharing ! I never treated my classic old stamps with hydrogen peroxide because I see that darkening as a part of their history. But from the dealer´s view, it´s just another cup of tea...😉 Greets from GER, U.
Thank you. Yes it’s totally a valid point for debate, do you keep the history of its exposure in the last 182 years, or do you try to keep it as it was issued back in 1840… it’s an interesting discussion.
Thanks for watching!!
Amazing video! Wow. Full on respect for the philatelic expertise that is out there - and Bill Barrell in particular! Cheers Graham.
Glad you enjoyed it! 😊
What a fine person Bill is, and what a treat to learn so much in such a short time from some one so knowledgeable. Well done, again.
It was a treat! Bill was very generous in sharing his time with me and allowing all the cameras, it was really cool seeing him in action. Thanks for watching, Mark 😊
Great job again! I was a big fan of H2O2 as a surgeon, but I know now that I have to use it as a philatelist too :)) Thanks a mil Graham!
Oh nice!! This H2O2 seems to be pretty useful stuff 🤔
Glad you enjoyed the video, thanks for watching, Zsolt
Who woulda thought Id sit through an entire video about stamps. Very interesting.
Thank you 🙏 😊 glad we were able to lure you in and watch the full vid, it really is interesting!
The way he manipulates the stamps and the cover almost gave me a heart attack 😂 il do it so softly
😅 same with me!!
Fascinating. Thanks for signing my postcard on the Saturday
You are very welcome! Thank you for your support and for watching the channel 😊
Fascinating!! Very well made video, it would be great to see more of these
Would love to film more! Thanks Markus.
Hi Graham, I was very sorry to have missed you at Stampex 2022, but my ticket was for the Thursday (September 29). I did ask at the reception and they told me that you were due on the Friday and the Saturday. A great disappointment but couldn't be helped. Hope you enjoyed your visit as much as I did this time. There's always next year !! Hahaha ! Best wishes to yourself and Laura.
Ah so sorry I didnt see you, yes I showed up on the Friday and Saturday, it was a very short visit again. Maybe next year 😊. Thanks Ian!!
Well, I never doubted Bill knew exactly what he was doing.😄 Great episode (again) G.
Haha, well... I initially thought he was crazy 😂, glad you enjoyed it Ted.
Forgot to say what a fascinating episode you have produced here, Graham. Very informative yet very scary !!
Thank you, Ian 😊
It would be on my mind to experiment with stamps of much much lesser value in first attempting that method of cleaning. Well done episode as always.
That’s a good idea! I’ll probably do the same with some beaten up Penny reds… I’ll keep the Penny blacks far away from any chemicals 😅
Great video, I loved the way close ups of the stamps were shown.
Thank you 😊 glad you liked the format.
It is great to see experts at 'work'. Can't believe how nervous I was as Bill was waving the wet stamps about.
Oh I think we were all nervous 😬, those lethal tip tweezers and the wet stamps were totally stressing me out 😅
Really fascinating episode! Thank you Bill and Graham.
Thank you Kevin 😊. Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent episode!!!!
Thanks Lawrence 😊
The first épisode I watched since long...still excellent Graham..👍
Yay welcome back Fred! thanks for watching 😊
Fantastically educational, Graham 👍 really great to see!
Excellent video! Saving this for future reference.
Thanks Greg! Glad you found it useful! 😊
Wow!! The short version brought me here and I am glad it did!!
This was a terrifying video ... and a revelation at the same time!😳
You can always learn new things about stamps 🤔 so many ways of doing it 👍👍👍👍🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺😎
Yup, I’m always learning 👍👍
You know, seeing someone soaking penny blacks off a cover (genuine or not) is something i have seen for the first time today... To think that back in the 1840s and 1850s Victorians were doing the same to their own everyday mail!
Same, my first time seeing such a thing as well.
Funny to think that maybe someone in the future would be upset with me throwing away an envelope I get in the mail today with a 2022 stamp on it, but that could be the case as I would prob have done that in 1840.
Great video! Loved watching the process and learning from an expert. Keep up the great work! Wisconsin, USA.
Another excellent video. It was great to see you at Stampex last week.
Thank you 😊 I hope you enjoyed Stampex!!
What an interesting video. Thank you.
You are very welcome 😊 thank you for watching!
Great show Bill! I won't dare to soak the strip of Penny Back off the cover. And the use of peroxide WOW
I have to admit that I cringed when I first saw the topic, but it turned out to make perfect sense and to be very interesting. Thanks Graham!
Hi we met at Stampex. Really nice show and nice video.
Thank you! It was nice meeting you. Thank you for watching and supporting the channel!
As usual, I end up learning so much and enjoying a topic more than expected. Thanks for the unusual and informative. Keep branching out, amigo!
You are very welcome 😊. Thank you for watching!
Brilliant Barrell👍
Indeed 👍
As he drops the cover in the water, at the lower left on the envelope you can see in manuscript "free". So the cover never had stamps on it in the first place, as Bill explains for other reasons. Also if a cover had 4 stamps on it, you would see more evidence that it carried more than just a sheet of paper. Great video -- we linked to it from StampAuctionNetwork today.
Yes! That’s another good point, I didn’t get Bill pointing it out on camera but you are absolutely correct. Thank you so much for sharing the video 🙏 😊
Knowledge, knowledge, knowledge... anothoer great episode 🔍
Exactly! 😊 that’s what it’s all about. Thanks for watching!
Fascinating episode 👍
Thanks Louis, glad you found it fascinating 😬
That was really neat!
Bill was so cool to talk to, he did a great job walking us through the process 😊
Great stuff Bill. Simon
Thanks for watching, Simon 😊
Fantastic video thanks for viewing Diane Oz
Excellent video and explanation of the use of peroxide to reverse sulphuretting. Should only be done by an experienced hand though, which is what happened here. Thanks for the post.
You are very welcome Glenn, I might try experiment on LATE Penny reds where there are known to be issues, I think I’ll keep the chemicals away from my Penny Blacks 😅. Thanks for watching!
Learned something again. Thanks Graham!! Not sure whether I will ever use peroxide but at least I now know of the possibility:-)
Glad you found it interesting, thanks for watching, Kees. 😊
What a great video. Several lessons in one, fascinating, thanks for sharing but I don't think I'll be doing that with any of my penny blacks! Far too scary..
Same! Maybe I’ll try with some beaten up Penny reds, but the Penny blacks won’t come near any chemicals. Glad you enjoyed it!! 😃
excellent episode
Thank you 😊
Excellent video
Thank you 😊
Super. Danke für interessante Video.
You are very welcome 😊 Thanks for watching.
That was exiting to watch great show.
Thank you Iwan, glad you enjoyed it 😊
Thank you
That is amazing!
It really was, I was impressed with how Bill explored the cover and stamps. Thanks Karen 😊
Nice. I use this technique on the orange USA stamps turned brown. Works wonders
Oh great to hear! I need to look more into the process and perhaps discuss it in a future video. Thanks Erik!
Yes, me too. Orange 🍊 stamps are the worst
Now I see why he had no problem with the other guy trying to boost his profits, he was about to show how to change the stamp to increase value, love it 😀 😂
Never heard of bleaching them before
Very interesting! These stamps are nearing 200 years old now - no wonder why the experienced UK dealers are so adept at stuff like this.
That was teaching everyone skills of interest
I agree, interesting for all philatelists, Bill gave us a great set of lessons
fascinating episode, @ 12:19 i have to admit i prefer the before shot as it gives the stamp more contrast.
After giving it some thought though I have to be honest I'm not convinced that the H2O2 isn't simply bleaching the stamp / cancellation as opposed to removing oxidation. If you bleach black ink you get brown ink.
Furthe, before and after photos prove little unless the before picture was taken (ahem, in color) some 180 years ago..
Listen to Bill: he's an expert and a really nice guy.
Yup 😊 👍
As a philatelist and professional chemist - I was shouting 'put the cap back on the bottle of hydrogen peroxide!'. By all means use chemical methods, but keep your work area clear and clean, wear latex gloves, eye protection, and be ready for spills and unexpected cross-contamination affecting other areas and valuable items.
Agreed! Safety first 👍🧑🔬
I am not a chemist, but, I have serious concerns about this demonstration.
I have no doubt that hydrogen peroxide removes sulphurisation, but it is also known to be a strong bleaching agent, and it seems to me that some of the effect that we are seeing could be due to bleaching and not just from the sulphurisation being removed.
Bill himself confirms the bleaching ability of HP when at 10:15 he makes mention of someone forgetting a few penny blacks in hydrogen peroxide overnight only to find them blank the next morning. Of course, overnight is a lot longer than 30 seconds, but it does show that bleaching will occur, we just do not know how much occurs in 30 seconds.
Bill then turns his attention to four penny reds, of which the left-most one is much more sulphurised than the others. After treating it with HP it appears that he has removed the sulphurisation. However, the stamp is now a completely different colour to the others, even in comparison to the least sulpherised example. More significantly, however, the few seconds of exposure to the HP has considerably reduced the intensity of the black cancel illustrating just how powerful a bleaching agent HP is.
As for the black Maltese Crosses on the strip of penny blacks supposedly having originally been red, I believe that he is mistaken. Black iron gall ink, which was in widespread use at the time, is known to oxidise and slowly turn brown due to exposure to oxygen i.e it rusts. hydrogen peroxide on the other hand is a very strong oxidising agent and will rust iron in minutes, and that is the effect being demonstrated here, which is simply the hydrogen peroxide oxidising the black ink and turning it brown.
Clive
Totally valid comments and observations. Perhaps this is something that we can explore further and do some experiments in a future video, I have other questions as well. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts..
Very much near to 30 k
🤞 still some distance to go!
besides the interesting peroxide information, I still have a question about just taking of stamps from enveloppes..... Is it better to use demin-water (demineralised) = osmose water ? In belgium we have a lot of calcium in our tapwater...
Graham did you receive my postcard yet. I have a question ,i will print my own pages using ALBUMEASY. I asked PALO if they supply pages without the borders, they don't unfortunately. The next thing is to obtain paper and cut to size of 297 x 310mm [unless there is on the market this size]. looking forward what you got in your stamp journey here. Best regards
There are probably quite a few of these 'forgery' covers out there, it seems like a simple thing to create :(
Probably! I had never really thought of it as a way to hide tears and creases, but it makes complete sense, so sadly I think you are correct.
@@ExploringStamps Good thing we now know to look for it. :)
Who else was nervous when he was flipping those penny blacks around while they were wet?
Me 🙋🏼♂️
@@ExploringStampsAnd me!
They're Retrobrighting stamps now!
Could he also use the more hightech forensic philately methods like the spectrometer VSC6000 , I think it could provide even more information about the history of the stamps and cover.
You got me with the clickbait title
Ha success!! 💪
Gummed (unused w/ original gum) stamps can’t be treated similarly with hydrogen peroxide I.e. brushed on. Am I right?
Can be done to a mint stamp but brush lightly. Must keep the back dry. A ticklish operation not for the faint hearted!
Awesome :-)
Thank you 😊
Wow :)
😊👍
oops, that first penny red looks ruined, now not like the other three, it's way too bright....or is that a genuine color variation?
It's the actual color. The other 3 are oxidized
By the way: I am collecting in Germany, the classics, obviously, like post-1945. And yes, we have a massive problem with forgery too, e.g. with the Posthorn series....🙄
I see his point, but I have to admit I cringed at watching him soak that wrapper. Personally I'd have left it as is and make a note on my album page. But that's just me.
Interesting video. The problem with using invasive techniques as shown here is that you need to understand why you are using them and the potential intended and unintended consequences. A conservator is unlikely to use the HP that Bill uses. Rather a ACS reagent grade 30% would be used diluted with deionised alkalised water to about 5% and reagent like magnesium bicarbonate or TAED added to reduce the acidity to approx. 8ph. What you are trying to do use the 'bleach' to remove contaminates without damaging the paper or leave lasting damage. HP over time and exposed to light can eventually result in a darkening of the colour or colour reversion. So, while the video is interesting and instructive it demonstrates the pitfalls of using invasive techniques.
When are you doing Indian stamp video
Hopefully soon. I’m right now exploring stamps from Nepal 🇳🇵 😊
Who’s Phil Ately?
Only the coolest person out there 😎
👍👍👍
I watched a few videos and I have a few stamps that I would like to sell please send me a copy of a book or information we’re I can find out the value of them thanks
The worlds most expensive stamp, the Swedish 3 skilling is a fake, were the color has been altered. But nobody cares any longer. It's always the last sale that is more important than the truth.
Nope not a fake
Boa noite tenho várias stamp para negociar.
Cúllar Vega.
saya mempunyai beberapa prangko langka milik kakek saya, kepada siapa saya bisa menjualnya?
You can maybe try find a stamp club or society near you, and ask to have them look at your collection.
@@ExploringStamps terima kasih ini sangat membantu
Do you have an email address? I’d like to send you pictures of my stamp collection and get your advice
I usually call this "inaccurate"
I usually call this a “bot”
Is bot short for something?
那位朋友能把地址公告广大藏友吗..
for what? what are you doing? you destroyed the collection envelope. a bad example for others
It’s a fake item, somebody created it. So isn’t it better to rescue the Penny Blacks and sell them for what they are worth?
@@ExploringStamps That makes sense.
As a postal history seller I think soaking the penny blacks off the original cover is something you should never do. Its always better to see where the stamps came from and were sent to with the destination & postmarks intact on the original cover. What a shame to ruin that cover.
Thanks for commenting Duncan, but if you watch the video, you will see that it is not the original cover and this is why the Penny blacks were soaked off of it.
it was not the original cover, so he can do this
You missed the point of the video Duncan
That was really cool!
It was! Bill was really generous to let me film him. Thanks Todd!
@@ExploringStamps The though of putting peroxide on a penny black is terrifying!