- I went with the Ethereal summoner pledge. Is there any way I could pay an addition amount (without having to just pledge another $40+cnd ) to just get the hardcover book added ?
Kalashtar for psychic glamour. 12 levels in rogue swashbuckler for expertise, panache, and reliable talent. 8 levels in fighter samurai for elegant courtier. max cha and wis. +22 to persuasion min roll of 32, with advantage on all persuasion checks. max is only 42 but panache lets you charm a creature.
@@nyanbrox5418 depends if your DM makes you roll deception as well if you're trying to use a false premise in your persuasion or you decide blunt force intimidation is more appropriate for what you want.
@@TheJackman007 oh does the samurai skill not simply apply to all charisma checks, well yeah ok that kinda makes sense to have charm then. wait isn't charm a wisdom save, like not very effective on elves and those with high insight. well i guess you need to be like a rogue using expertise in insight to catch you out then, but thats still only gonna work when you are lying. ok this is a super build
I imagine something like a robot butler who has been created to teach etiquette to generations of a specific family, since they never age, and something had gone awry leading them to travel the world. something with manners akin to the kingsman mentor.
Going 14+ lore bard, 3+ levels paladin is better. With guidance, cutting words, and channel divinity, expertise and peerless skill. Max rolls gives you 20+17+12+12+5+4=70, average is 47, with glibness you can bring the average up to 52. Add simulacrum for another inspiration dice d12, and you can roll a max of 82. Wonder what you can do with deception rolls of 82.
Would you be able to add Halfling (Greater Mark of Hospitality) for 1d6, Bend luck from wild sorcerer ally (1d4) as well as guidance? Assuming max rolls 20 on roll 5 from charisma, 6 if used a tome 12 from expertise 12 from peerless 5 from channel divinity 6 from greater mark of hospitality From ally 12 from Bardic Inspiration 4 from guidance 4 from bend luck For a max total of 81, minimum of 43 with glibness I dont know how cutting words would factor in, unless the DM tries for an opposing persuasion check?
If you make a rogue Kalashtar with 16 of wisdom, psychic glamore and expert in insight at level 1 you have a passive insight of 22, no one can lie to you, and you can tell your colleagues by telepathy if someone tries to cheat them 😀. I leave this here and I make my way out slowly. PD: sorry mi english :I
@@irok1 "But NaT oNe MeANs CRitICal faILurE" Instead of convincing the villagers to fight against the oppressive lord, you convince them to fight for him and manage to get imprisoned by him
To people poitning out nat ones don't count on ability checks, yes I know and that's why I capitalized random letters in the sentence to emulate sarcasm to make it a somewhat obvious joke.
Robot202 but he has decided that your ethos should be immortalized beside his own. “The truth you’ve revealed to me” he says “and never must this truth fail to be spoken.” “He will be immortalized in undeath to preach the philosophy he taught to you as it is blended with its new and perfected focus through rotted eyes.” “Go!” He shouts to his remaining guards. “Find the headmaster of... -what school did he say he went to again? Oh yes there. Find this great sage! Bring him to me, dead AND alive!” He has sent wights to take your mentor into eternity with them. They’ve left, running toward your hometown on fetid legs. You could stop them in time, but that would mean Bbeg the necromancer escapes again. Another village will die before the moon turns as he replaces the minions you trashed and turned away, pushing so deep into the catacombs to find him this time. Be careful when you talk to strangers, no matter what the roll.
If they have expertise when your proficiency's maximum (+6x2=+12) and have max charisma (+5) They get a total of +17 And if the d20 & they were given a maximum inspiration die (d12) and a guidance spell (d4) and they all landed on their maximum value You get **20+12+17+4=53** 53 is the maximum skill roll you have in D&D normally
Persuasion isn't mind control. As others have said, the DC to persuade someone into doing something antithetical is infinity, because no check can do that.
the issue lies that while i 100% agree with that definition, then that would basically make this build useless, or rather "overgeared" if a much lower skill can achieve the same result, where in most cases it definitely can.
@@EricBohm , Over the course of several months or years... that has happened before. It takes a very long time for people to change that much. Persuasion is broke because of DMs.
@@aralornwolf3140 it is definitely possible to brainwash someone over a reasonable amount of time. None of the broken persuasion check stories match that scenario. They're all *boop* "I will give you all the things because this chat won me over" variations.
That's what I've been saying! Cha is all one needs. With Cha, you can make Str characters feel bad about themselves. Int, too. Even them Dex guys will cry
@@KuaEtus It's nice to have certain scores low, based on character. One of my two favorite builds is a Protector Aasimar Order Cleric that goes either Feyloc or Valor Bard. They have 15 str, 14 con, low dex and about 12 int. However, they have good Cha and Wis. I also play a bit of monks, rangers and played a druid, and considering clerics more often these days. I love to have my insight and often times, perception, too. The observant feat is a favorite
@@ashenwuss1651 i love that feet too, I said in another comment a build that you might like: "If you make a rogue Kalashtar (wayfinder's guide to Eberron pag 62) with 16 of wisdom, psychic glamore and expert on insight at level 1 you have a passive insight of 22, no one can lie to you, and you can tell your colleagues by telepathy if someone tries to cheat them 😀." PD: again, sorry mi english :P
Those awkward moments when the Bard realizes he's (she's?) been ditched by the party and only has a guitar and a dagger against a whole tribe of orcs... ;o)
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 Let's just hope those orcs are from Many Arrows and not other orcs or deserters from Many Arrows. With their king trying to rebuild his kingdom and trying to seek peace with humans the bard might find themselves a part of a political negotiation. At least King Lorgru would make sure the bard returns to the party via negotiation. Yet good luck on Many Arrows trying to make peace with dwarves. The dwarf in the party may just want to kill them all regardless in order to rescue the bard.
oh no only 51 persuasion what a travesty. look im sure you can find a ioun stone of concentration somewhere. or just ask someone for it as im sure they will just give you whatever you want at this point. since you are quite literally killgrave
I once had a 29 passive perception on accident with a bard/rogue. The GM ruled "Your passive perception is actually 15 but you have permanent truesight."
I made a fire genasi cleric with 23 passive perception but I had advantage on all perception checks. The dm made it so I could survey everything at a glance, but traps must be investigated for.
if there was another Bard in the party, they could inspire the one doing the check. adding anywhere from a 1d6 to 1d12 boost to the roll. Creating a range from 31 to 67
@@stevencooper1103 some dms, rightly in my mind, think about persuasion as a check to see if you succeed with a real and possible thing. A high roll doesn't convince something that would never happen
Keep in mind there are already hard limits on what can happen. Most persuasion magic, for example, won't allow you to make your target kill itself or do harm to itself. If magic can't force that to happen, neither should your sweet words. Things like handing over a kingdom would also be ineffective, unless you include extras like fake documents, disguises, deception rolls, etc. TBH if I wanted to specialize in something social, I'd go with deception more than persuasion. It's easier to succeed in making a lie believable than getting crazy things to happen just through nice conversation, other than a one night stand seduction lol.
I disagree with you completely. Magic to "persuade" is essentially magically forcing them to agree, and a beings will power may impose limits on that magical force. However sweet words as you called it is really just a convincing argument. A person who is convinced that something is true, believes that thing them self, so there is no opposing will. A true master of manipulation is more powerful than magic because the target willingly agrees with you of their own free will. That is a massive difference than what magic tries to do.
Another youtuber i watched put it into words that clicked for me "Saying that you should be able to convince the king that you are the king if you roll high enough, would be like saying you can jump to the moon by rolling a high enough athletics check", i think i would basically let the person succeed every persuasion check the person might be inclined to do, maybe even treat it like magic and go a bit further, however if they will start developing a reputation that they can charm anything and anybody and nobody should listen to anything they say, maybe even be captured, gagged and treated like a tool for persuading enemy political factions, not in an evil way or anything, also if they wanted to dedicate that much to persuading people then ofc i would let them have fun with it, but if its going to disrupt the game or just be assumed as a permanent charm then i would rather turn it into a straight up charm ability, like an innate ability.
You're getting a bit too much reality in there. Not the first part, that I agree with. But the no one listening part is going out of your way to punish a player for playing a particular type of character and that's just no bueno as a GM. You don't have people not fight combats because the Barbarian is good at combat, or not use magic because the Wizard can identify it. I think the reputation bit is good enough. People in the world having heard of you seems more than fair, they plan for ways around you, the same as town guards that have seen the Barb throw a man a dozen feet, or enemy spellcasters having a counterspell.
@@LupineShadowOmega "You don't have people not fight combats because the Barbarian is good at combat, or not use magic because the Wizard can identify it" if the badguy has any intelligence he would prepare charm spells for the barbarian, and anti magic zones against the wizard, atleast to whatever extent there is. Constantly persuading people to do things that they dont want to do and using them to further your own goals would be the actual moves of a psychopath, which i mean if they want to play that is 100% fine, but that only works as long as you keep moving. If we assume that numbers matters up to that extent then imagine the consequences of going around casting charm on every single person you meet, afterwards making them regret what they did, regardless of its magic or not they would assume it was something akin to it, which would be punished. Not that i ever imagine i would need to deal with that high of a persuasion check, and if they did my players arent pricks enough to abuse it, was a case of "what if the players want to abuse a playstyle" then there would be lashback, people arent going to hunt them down and tie them for making a grieving wife feel better by talking to her, but if they constantly go around to noble houses and make them do things they dont want to do? or end up trying to persuade the wrong person? then there would be consequences, Much like if you had the 24 strength barbarian go around punching through houses and walls because they were too lazy to use the door there would be consequences, or the wizard who can use wish, hell even less than that might be abused by the people in power. If you have a build, thats cool, but im not worried about it since if it goes to an extent i find detrimental i will just do something about it, like literally everything else. and it punishes a playstyle? if the player goes around and bangs everything they meet circumventing everything with the same single roll then that isnt as much a playstyle as not playing the game.
@@zoulsgaming9455 yes I'm sure that ambassadors, courtiers, lawyers, and mediators are all psychopaths. >_> Getting people to change their opinions on things is a time tested skill and isn't automatically nefarious. Also, as the DM you should probably know the difference between something magically forcing someone to do something and people using social wiles to their advantage. Those are very different things and one of them has consequences because of its magical nature. People in this very comments section have pointed out how you shouldn't even have a roll if something is literally impossible or goes against the basic personality of a creature. The only exception probably being something like Charm or Friends that is an actual work of magic and comes with consequences for this fact. As the DM you are the arbitrator of the rules. And the world. If you think something shouldn't be possible with a roll then it isn't. However you shouldn't punish a character or their player just because you didn't expect a type of character. Instead you play and give reasons for why things play out the way they do. So the no one believing bit is no fun and arguably being a dick. Meanwhile, "People have heard of you and thus warn their business partners and lock up their daughters." is not. The Noble example is again flawed, because "do what they don't want to do is vague" and doesn't necessarily fit. Heck, what does it mean to "abuse it" really. If you're walking around making deals with people, I'd assume the way you're thought of afterward would depend on what you did and how you did it. You're good as your word, I doubt people are going to feel the need to do anything. They might say "Damn that dude is good at haggling" but I doubt there would be a need for consequences. If you go around cheating people, again that can be solved by the reputation bit. If you get a rep as a con-man and cheat, then less people are going to want to deal with you. Or if not less, maybe the wrong kinds of people, maybe you become a mark for a cheat yourself. If you want to go around banging everything, what difference does it make? How is that not a playstyle? People play the game for tons of different reasons, be they RP, Crunch, Fluff, Storytelling, etc. If someone wants to be a flamboyant ladies man (their gender and orientation could be any), freaking let them. Especially as that too is going to have story elements attached to it. Like I said, being good at convincing people of things isn't the same as mind control. If a character is always convincing people to sleep with them, then that's a two way street. Both parties bring their own issues and anyone that has ever been in a relationship knows how volatile that can be. Me being me they'd get a Scott Pilgrim style conglomeration of evil exes, but for less dramatic people, spies, people using you, the list goes on really. Again, I don't see us as disagreeing too much here, I just feel that you're being way too heavy handed about a situation that would handle itself rather organically if the DM is thinking around a problem or what they see as one instead of wanting to nuke it from orbit just to be sure.
@@LupineShadowOmega You are correct, i dont think we disagree, i think you are misunderstanding what it is i am writing, for your example, lets use drunken hookups instead, people get persuaded to do something while drunk, they regret it the day after, that regret sticks as you mentioned, the ex's. However the general consensus goes from the idea that if you roll high enough almost anything is possible, i would say not, and if we were to treat say 50 as an actual number that mattered, then that would be almost akin to a straight up charm spell if we also assume that 1 is a horrible failure making a fool out of yourself, and 30 is considered "impossible". You cant say "oh its not about people abusing it" because that is precisely what im talking about, as you conveniently ignored, if people go around curing depression with happy words or making the world a better place then they aint gonna be targeted. But forexample, what is the difference on persuasion and intimidation? i see the consequences as similar, if you went up an used intimidation of 50 on a person they would do whatever the hell you want them to, out of fear for their lives, that has consequences, likewise charming them up with persuasion to the point where they agree to something that they know is a bad idea might also have consequences. If they go around and sleep with every wife and every daughter, then i would tell them to get out of my game because in my game sex and sexuality isnt much of a thing since i dont feel like doing erotic roleplay for them. Going around and ABUSING, using it to your every advantage with complete disregard for player, story, prep, dm, or anything else, is a abuse, expecting to solve every encounter by making anybody give up, or fall for their charms, or sleep with them is the equivalent to solving everything with combat and murder hoboing, which isnt fun either. If i wanted to abuse this i would personally make a changeling with actor and charlatan, and just keep changing personalities and do whatever the hell i wanted, but what fun is that, likewise if my player wanted to make a kalashtar with persuasion advantage and this high persuasion they would need an extremely good reason to do so or take a hike. I wouldnt let them roll for something that is impossible, however i feel as soon as people get that high in rolls then it doesnt matter and it just breaks the game, it would be like a person who has +20 to his attack modifier, why the hell would i ever bother rolling? if a person wanted to make this character for a oneshot as a smoothtalking swashbuckler esque type then that would be super cool, but if it was something where they would solve every single issue, them alone, never giving any spotlight time to the other 3 people in the party then that would be an issue, mainly because persuasion is such a vague check that seems to work in a near infinite amount of possibilities, entirely overshadowing deception and intimidation. Regardless this built is just absurd and will break the game entirely, its like the massive skeleton army necromancer builds, they are fun in theory but if a player wanted to do that then we are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay outside the normal rules of the game, even if it can be done with the rules of the game, a 30 is the highest skillcheck in the book suggested as "impossible" so anything over that also just bends the rules of the game and universe to their will if you believe in the dice mattering that much, if you dont then throw this entire build out the window because it doenst matter. TL:DR : If a player wants to abuse a persuasion this high to get everybody to bend to his will then there will be consequences if its for a good story reason, and if its to powerplay then he would get booted from my game. Also, dont be a prick and tell me how to play my table, as i wont tell you how to play yours.
For anyone reading these super long comments and wanted a summery, help understanding, or for the people above that don't know what they are talking about her you go: Firstly Definitions: Persuasion is the skill for getting someone to do something that they have no objection to doing normally.Deception is the skill for making someone believe something that they might not have believed before. Intimidation is the skill for getting someone to do something that they normally would object to doing, using fear to do so. Secondly Risk/Reward:Reward: If you wanted to go to bed with a random lady, for example, using Persuasion might work if that lady was attracted to you, using Deception might work if you convinced that lady that their future sun would be the king and so going to bed with you would be good for them, and using Intimidation might work to make a lady attracted to you and therefor go to bed with you. Risk: If you used Persuasion, the risk could be that rumors would be spread and the lady would ruin her reputation, then she would get mad seeking revenge against you. If you used Deception, than whatever you told her, when it didn't happen, she might declare that you lied and seek revenge, using your new status to further her gains. And if you used Intimidation she might run off to a powerful person to protect her from you, maybe using this other person to avenge her. Whatever the risk is that the DM decides, It should be fair for the thing that you did, and I say risk because the lady might have liked the time you spent together. As a player, Never hog the spotlight from the other players and make sure that what you what to do is ok with them first, you don't want to lose your friends to a silly game. Thirdly Stats: If a player gets a 50 in say Persuasion normally, than as a DM it's not strictly about success or failure, I would say It's about making sure that Persuasion is the right check to be making in that case. Moderating the game is one of the jobs of the DM, If your a DM don't skip to Nerfing the build because it's annoying, talk to the player first, than implement higher risks, and then finally if things are still broken Nerf the ability. Maybe when skills get this high it's the time to use Crits in your skill checks if you haven't already been. I see now that talking about this makes long comments, sorry for that. If you are the DM and you don't want to run a game the way I am saying, that is fine. I am only giving my opinion and hoping your ok with it. I am only like 16 years old so what do I know? but as you should be, Stay Nerdy.
Personally, for something like asking a king to hand over his kingdom, I'd probably place an additional modifier to the opposing roll. However, I'd say a 55 is enough to nearly persuade gods.
My old group stopped using Exploding Dice when I rolled a 96 total to Bluff (4 20s) with my Ranger in Pathfinder. We played that you rolled Bluff before RPing the check so you could play the Bluff... I rolled 96 (last 3 throws were the DM's die) and looked up with a grin and said in character: "Hey look! A random and convenient distraction!"
they forgot about the two magical items that increase charisma and wisdom by 2 and max of 2, allowing an extra 2 to the check allowing it to be 32 - 57 so
I DM'd my first game a couple weeks back, and ran Krenkos way. The rouge decided to walk up and knock on Falish's door, was greeted to a feapon in the face, but said they were wanting to perform a heist on a bank, told them to roll, they rolled a nat 20. I think it was 24 total. So now she is convinced they want to break into and rob the most secure bank in the city.
One important thing to note is if your DM lets you make a Mark of Hospitality Halfling, you can add a d4 to any persuasion check and a d6 at level 8 with the feat. So the build I'm currently doing is Lore Bard 14/ Redemption Paladin 6. I only went 6 because of "Aura of Protection", not really for the persuasion part of the build. At level 20 it has a max roll of 62, although very unlikely. d20 + d10 (Peerless Skill) + d6 (Greater Dragonmark (Hospitality)) + d4 (Guidance) + 5 (Cha) + 6 (Prof) + 6 (Expertise) + 5 (Emissary of Peace)
Make this build Go into a game Walk into a room with bbeg Walk out to the rest of your party assuring them they won’t cause any more trouble, you gave them a stern talking to.
yeah, rules as written the speech skills are basically mind control. Door monster explains it wonderfully in their D&D diplomacy video. I have fun with it that way, but I know a lot of dms don't. honestly, if they don't work like that then there's really no reason to use them. if they don't produce visible results, you're better off just hitting stuff with a hammer. Example: magic talking sentient puzzle door, if you don't want to solve the puzzle you can go around, you can try and smash it down, or you can roll that persuasion check. "may I please go through?" "Well since you asked nicely, sure".
Thats a bit believable atleast. Our DM gave us the example of asking a King to give you his kingdom, you roll well and he spares your life instead of executing you. I like the middle ground, Wormtongue in LoTR has a hold on the king, so much that he is in charge, but the king still 'has' his kingdom. (Im sure this is wrong since theres obviously some spell combined with him but you get the trope)
The dice have spoken. The king is bewildered, thinks that you might be a devil. Will contemplate your proposal, using the time to fortify his hold against devils and magic.
Good work! Remember that Deception and Intimidation are a thing too! You might not Persuade a King to abdicate, but Deception can spread rumours he plans to disinherit the Crown Prince. You might say, "nobody would believe that" "yeah they would".
You'd have to have a plan and work on it for sometime. But seems plausible to me. Same with persuading a King to abdicate, one roll won't do it. But if you : poison the King so he starts acting crazy then spread rumours of it among the commoners, then go and bribe, blackmail, or persuade the nobles to support the Crown Prince (or yourselves) instead then sure.
This is why I tell my players not to power game a stat it doesn't matter what you as the player thinks about the lie. The ruling on the lie being too farfetched is actually a rule in the game I don't have to always let you roll. Do I want to tell you no. Not always but if the rulers kids are good aligned they aren't going to be inclined to believe something like that if they're parent doesn't act that way toward them bonds between characters matter enough to render rolling pointless.
@@kholtsclaw5266 Certainly at my table, I try to make sure that players will always be better off imagining their PCs as real people in a real situation and _just telling me_ what their character is going to try to do and how they are trying to do it than they will by trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat by using a rules loophole. In my experience at least, one of the prime causes of players coming up with retarded plans - and not just in social interaction -that crash and burn is this failure to imagine, "What if this situation were real?" and actually roleplay.
The best way to handle this is make the player role-play the persuasion. If they can't come up with a scenario where such a persuasion attempt makes any kind of sense then don't let it succeed. For example a prisoner trying to persuade a guard to open the cell door, give them their sword, and then allow the prisoner to lock them in the cell while they escape. What if the prisoner was accused of murdering people the guard knows, maybe even other guards during a previous escape attempt. What if the guard serves an evil sorcerer who'll do terrible things to them if the prisoner escapes? What could the prisoner say or offer that could convince that guard? But if the players do their homework and make a persuasion attempt that makes sense as the DM you should give it a chance to work. My players convinced a Lawful Evil Blackguard (paladin) to abandon his allies by pointing out that they were behaving in chaotic ways that were at odds with that Blackguard's vows. The blackguard listened, stated "this is no longer my fight", and walked away. But if you allow the die to be rolled as the DM you should respect the result. Back in 2e D&D days a psionic character going through the Q series modules killed Lolth twice with psychic crush by roll 1% each time. RNG gives and RNG takes away.
I really wish that vicious mockery gained a bonus from persuasion. It doesn't matter whether or not they are unable to understand you, But if you're using gestures with words laced with magic I feel like you can mentally hurt and insult anyone.
@@Stormeris Depends on if that's outside of their personality :P At that point, if you roll 3 natural 20s in a row for a total of +35 each time, sure. You can fuck Vecna. Congrats. Campaign over. Let me know the names of any kids you have/adopt together and may the two of you live happily ever after. My point is that it's impossible to convince someone to do a 180 with a single roll, but it might be possible to do 5 times 36 and thus achieve the same effect. Not so much for the memes, but I think it could be really dramatic to have multiple instances where you slowly influence the BBEG to the point where, in the final encounter, you might persuade them to give up on their evil plan entirely.
@@oOPPHOo I reiterate if they aren't intelligent enough to understand your argument you can try to presaude someone all you want if they don't understand the points your making they may just get frustrated with you. Also Vecna wouldn't fuck you that is outside his godly personality, he's going to use you and turn on you before you turn on him at best if you have nothing important to offer him you basically just walked into your own death. He's more likely to turn you into an undead than speak to you he doesn't even talk to his own cultists really.
I think I would be mostly impressed that one of my players did this because it would take some time just to make sure it actually works because it's very hard to roll 1 natural 20 just alone but I think the role play would have to be something very creative when talking to someone of power ie- king,queen or anyone in power. But I wouldn't be mad
A slight change that I have seen: though it lowers the max score but it increases the minimum. By taking 11 levels in rouge, 4 in paladin, 8 in fighter. That way you get reliable talent and the lowest with rolling you can get is 11. For a minimum of 38, but still have a max of 51. If you add magic items: a stone of good luck as an item can add an additional +1 to your rolls A tome of leadership and influence: adds another+1 to cha And tome of understanding +1 to wis Now there is a max total of +58 (going with your level spread)
So I like to think about these things by bringing them into the day to day. If you were a king could anybody walk in and convince you to hand them the crown? No they couldn't no matter how glib. Now if it goes from skill to magic then of course all becomes possible. But as long as it is a skill it has limits no matter the roll. Cause confusion? Sure. Seed doubts? Absolutely. But cause you to do something completely against your very core identity? No.
A success on an impossible roll equals survival not success. -You don’t get to seduce the dragon but he may decide he owns you now. He would have killed you if he didn’t suddenly like you so much. So you survive, but no... You will never leave again without talking him into thinking you’re just going out for a pack of smokes. Now you got a young red dragon looking for you in that town you said the two of you would visit together someday You wanna ghost an adult black dragon, you just messed with the WRONG person. That’s not a breakup you do with a “sending” scroll like it’s a burner cell. You’d be better off convincing him that you were just a house pet.
With great beating wings and overturned patio tables the great beast lands in a puff of sulfur and the shaking of earth. A glass breaks. The crowd is stricken paralyzed by terror as the beast leans in to ask a waiter, Huff ...”is this Michaels coffee? I was looking for a small half elven man named Lai who might have stopped in. Maybe you remember him?” The breaking of another glass in the background.
"I know you must hear this from your food all the time, but you must bleach or something, 'cause that's one dazzling smile you got there...and do I detect a hint of minty freshness?" (1st Persaude check) *succeeds* "And you know what else? You know what else? You're-" (Perception check)*succeeds* "A girl dragon! Oh sure! I mean...of course you're a girl dragon, 'cause you're just reeking of feminine beauty and..." (2nd Persuade check) *succeeds* "Man, I'd really love to stay, but I'm an asthmatic and I don't know if it'd work out, you going to be blowing smoke rings and stuff..." (3rd Persuade check) *fails, gets carried off by horny dragon*
There is actually a way to get 62 on a max and it starts off with fighter no less. Have a 20 on Charisma giving you a +5 then choose prodigy since you are half elf giving you proficiency on and expertise on persuasion and this so far is just level four and by yourself already have a plus 9 choose the The purple Dragon Knight which doubles your Persuasion profiency bonus and now at level 7 you have a +14 reach up to level 17 now by yourself you have +23 pick up cleric Guidance 1d4 that sorcercer gives you that 1d4 and take three levels of Paladin that you have leftover and pick up the Emissary peace +5. So 23+4+4+5+20=56 and there you go already passed their 55 and the Bard gives you Inspiration +6 and that will give a 62 on a persuasion check
Kind of glad you guys bring this up... AND great video, btw... I know you guys meant some of the intro' to be a bit looney, for comical purpose, but this is exactly the kind of thing that can deteriorate a game into a rules lawyering versus reality shouting match... AND like so many others, it's best advised for a Table to take it to session-0... or even (should there be inexperience and lack of planning) bring it up as a "tween-session conversation"... I prefer to handle most of this sort of thing, math/logic to absurdity, with some criteria on the limits of antics... AND we settle the discussion of the relative lunacy tolerance at the Table before anything has a chance to get out of hand. When math/leveling might get to a degree of game-breaking, there's a compromising trade-off. It's been that way (more or less) since 3.5 came out and really screwed with the statistical models and pertinent limits. Maybe that was a case of "piss poor word choices" in a few key areas... but debatably, it destabilized sizeable chunks of the game through wide open interpretation... and we sought to put a fairly final nail in that coffin for our table. I'm lucky, and admittedly have story focused Players (for the most part)... So when powers or abilities reach a point where they're either impossible to deal with (without crushing the rest of the party hopelessly) OR so far ahead of XP-schedule, that there's clearly something wrong... either I'll call a Player aside, or (more often) a Player will call me aside for a tentative chat on dropping points from one ability, and adding a reasonable facsimile of worth to some other aspect of the Character... This is tentative, so the rest of the table can be consulted at some "break point" in the game... AND they get the dubious agency to argue points for or against this trade as "legit"... I'm only a GM, and I'm not perfect. It's always possible I could miss calculate, disturbingly off-set power or balance in the party or the game, and we should be willing and capable of just fixing the issue. Whether it's a discussion at length, or short and sweet, we have some form of passive vote... where inaction on the matter signifies at least "no argument" against the trade-off... and then get back to the game. I'm still in charge of whatever narrative in-game actually makes the trade-off happen... so there's a crude logic to it. It's not a matter of "this PC archetype gets plus X in persuasion every Y levels... and will achieve abilities to command gods at will... but the GM can't have that crap" It's part of the story... Ordinarily the archetype does, but something interesting, magical, or cursed happened to this one... and he can't continue gaining powers in that anymore... if it's any consolation (and it is) he CAN do this other stuff that's really friggin' cool anyways... and normally wouldn't be able to. ;o)
None of this is likely, but it's fun to think about: As a 5th-level Hexblade Warlock with the Dhampir lineage, add a proficiency in Persuasion, with an assumed 16 CHA. Take the Eldritch Smite invocation at 5th level. Use Hexblade Curse (for proficiency bonus) on a creature, as well as Wrathful Smite (for an extra 1d6). Now, attack with Vampiric Bite, expending a 3rd-level spell slot (for an extra 3d8). If you get a crit, on a 19 or 20, you will do 2d4+3+3+1d6+3d8 damage. If you do max damage and add this total to your next Persuasion roll, and then nat 20 the Persuasion, I think you'll get a 70, if I did the math right.
Nothing quite this extreme, but I'm actually planning on playing a smooth talking changeling warlock, master of disguise and manipulation type. I'm not going out of my way to get all that but it should still be pretty cool. Already planning on picking up linguist, will probably get actor too.
1. Guidance and enhance abilities are concentration spell so cannot have both by yourself 2 in the PHB they say that if as the DM you deem something impossible (jumping to the moon) no matter how ridiculously high the amount of bonus your player add together, do NOT let them roll. if they cannot roll they cannot roll 20+55+4+12 so no jumping to the moon
I have a 4- eloquence bard 1- hexblade (for armor and shield(s) and was able to get the UA diplomat feat. So I was able to double persuasion twice. Minimum current check is 26 persuasion and 20 deception which will keep climbing
I would not "remove all the limits" for this, and I know this makes me sound like a fun hater, but hear me out. If a player builds their character to hit a 55 Persuasion, they've built it so they can do that CONSISTENTLY. If a wild roll gets you something over the top good, once every few sessions? Sure, have that moment. But I'm not having you smugly rolling those dice between your fingers every time I try to threaten you because you can hit a DC 30 check rolling a 1. I'm not having you just talk to every character and getting everything you want and removing every ounce of challenge from the rest of the party. We didn't all gather around the table to watch you roll dice for three hours and talk about how cool you are. We came to have a game as a group where we tell a cool story. Bro.
simple solution: make persuasion not op. if a character can get a 50 on a strength check, do you let them lift a mountain? i'd say obviously not, no matter how strong you are there are tons of reasons why you can't lift a mountain. some people have a resolve as big as a mountain. you can make you story have characters like that. maybe have slightly less nuanced villains and more pure evil villains. you make a 55 persuasion check, they now exactly what point you are making and why it's a good point, they just don't give a shit. or look at what languages they know and have the opponents not speak that language.
@@vinx.9099 This is the thing. Players should be declaring actions (stating an intention and an approach), not rolls. If a player's stated action cannot achieve their intention, no roll. I don't give a shit how high your PC's modifier is, the King isn't handing them his crown just because they asked really nicely.
Maybe I missed it, but I missed what the Warlock bonus was? There was a mention of it at the start, twice, but then we got bard, fighter, paladin sorcerer.
I'd allow it because a social munchkin is gonna be weak in other areas lol. Especially a multiclasser like the one you're suggesting. The wild Sorc alone will probably tpk the campaign before the 55 check becomes an issue. 😋
i'm running a heavy social campaign right now, and i have 2 strong cha characters. A paladin and a bard. i have had to rule situations with over 25 already, without any "power game combo" and i have not doubt that i will have some over 30 in a few sessions. The premise for me, is to make the game interesting. So if you can "convice" a king of giving everything to you in your first meeting, or seduce a deamon lord. a) its boring. b) its an experience inmersion break. So my rule is when you make a roll on that kind of situations, and you have an outstanding performance. The situation would "change" but not in the way that braks everything. The king would laugh at you, and give you some gift and offer you to be the new buffon of the court. or the deamon lord would try to capture you to use you as a sex toy, instead of killing you. if you are talking with a dragon, could be he gives you a quest instead of attaking you. and things like that... "rule of coolness aplied"
I notice that the Divine Soul Sorcerer (Xanathar's Guide), allows the character to learn or swap out (when available) a Sorcerer or a Cleric cantrip or spell, thus not needing to take the Magic Initiate Feat. The Aasimar (Protector) has stat bonuses to WIS (+1) & CHA (+2).
I want to see this done with intimidation any enemy that sees just cowers in fear their is no better way to run through a goblin camp than scaring the crap out of all the goblins and walking right up to their boss a butchering him and telling the goblins they work for you now
My friend was in a homebrew game where this basically happened. He didn't have crazy intimidation, but on more than one occasion he crit the roll and the enemey crit failed the save against it and so they had a heart attack and died. Eventually their DM gave him an intimidation aura, so that enemies who got near him just had to make a save against being intimidated. I think he even gave a king a heart attack by accident because he was intimidating a group of people and the king just happened to walk into it and crit failed the save.
the swashbuckler rogue's panache ability is super powerful I've used it multiple times on a Rakshasa, one of the only ways to charm them due to their limited magic immunity
my adorable 6 year old half elf bard girl with +13 persuasion, guidance, hex, cutting words, and a host of other shit that builds off of that just made me LOVE persuasion XD. She can bullshit her way out of anything. You have no idea how "oh, I am just a kid" can get you out of sticky situations when you've said the wrong thing or happen to be at the wrong place.
The Kalashtar have "Psychic glamure" that give them advantage on Persuasión, Insight, Intimidation, or Performance, and have TELEPATHI, they can speach in your mind and make you think their are you conscience!!! That can break anyone if you study the person enough. Sorry my english :P, you are awesome :D.
This gets even crazier when you add magic items. Ioun stone of mastery adds 1 to your proficiency which makes your expertise give +14. Stone of good luck adds +1 to skill checks. Scroll of Glibness means that now, anytime you roll lower than a 15 on the dice it is counted as a 15. This means that your check is now at +30, with 2d4 and a minimum of a 15 on the dice for a range of 53-58
Only thing I noticed that was off with this is that Bad Luck can only be used on another creature, so instead of 30-55 the range is 29-51. Still thoroughly impressive.
I find it funny whenever people don't suggest Rogue is a CHA class. It's the only class that gets all four CHA skills outside of Bards. The only intelligence skill it gets is Investigation, and Insight and Perception are their only wisdom skills, and a couple subclasses rely heavily on CHA immediately after DEX.
Dip your Rogue in Hexbade and throw on some medium armor and a shield while rocking that Booming Blade and you’ve got yourself a full on Charisma class.
Tom Forge Personally I prefer Eldritch Blast/Agonizing Blast/Repelling Blast. Between EB and Booming Blade you have great options both in melee and at range, each combining with Cunning Action to add a whole new battlefield control element to the Rogue - soft lock with BB into disengage or disengage into forced movement push with EB, depending on the situation. You don’t need more than 14 Dex since your AC will already be at 19 backed up by the Shield spell. And in some ways you are a better Eldritch Blaster than a full Warlock because you also have at-will advantage on EB if you Cunning Action Hide.
The way to fix this in my opinion is to remember that the dice roll doesn't control everything. There are some things you just cannot persuade someone to do, no matter how high the roll. Idk I use rolls like this when I'm not sure what the outcome is. If I'm a shopkeeper and you want my goods for free, I'm not just gonna give them to you no matter how hard you try. If the shopkeeper has a viable reason to be open to this, that's another matter.
Star Wars Campaign. Clone Wars Era. One of my party members nearly solved the whole war by convincing the Droids that he was a prophet of "Machanicron" and that they should rise up against all organics. Successive crits lead to a wide spread massacre across an entire planet, though it was a good distraction, and would probably have lead to some interesting developments if the game hadn't fully imploded. ALL HAIL MACHANICRON, PERSUASION FOR THE WIN.
Say use logic for persuasion and other skill checks. I say ‘no roll’ if it’s no possible without magic. Also I use random dice creation charts for various things for the NPCs (if I don’t already have the in my notes) such as (but not limited too); gender, race, other physical details, mood, sexuality (orientation), sexuality( horniness and fidelity) , preferred appearance/race of potential partners (chart based on world), goals, religious/similar restrictions, etc. So roll quickly (I have the on hand on cards) I can say roll this for the same guardVersion 1) female, human, muscular and 5’7”; long wavy deep brown hair, brown skin with black eyes, one thin scar on the right cheek and wearing half plate beating a halberd in the cities colours. She is in a frustrated mood and brooks no insult. Straight and persuadable to more casual sex but looking more for a monogamous long term relationship. She prefers muscular men of more mammalian humanoid build hasn’t yet been with a less mammalian person. Seeks to competently finish her shift then go relax, have fun and sleep. She gas no societal or religious pressures against casual sex but has the pressure of her family to have ‘legitimate children’ luckily anti fertility tea is available to prevent unwanted pregnancy at low cost and no danger. Version 2) a male, Tiefling slender and 6’ tall long curving black horns with pink skin and solid golden eyes. His hair is straight deep purple and cut at the shoulders. Wearing halfplate in the towns colours he has a loaded crossbow slung over his shoulders and a long sword at his hip. He is in a happy affable mood and loves telling jokes. Pansexual and very easily persuaded to have sex with anyone adult. He seeks sex after his shift ends shortly as well as music, a good meal and sleep. He does not want or seek any kind of serious long term relationship and even a suggestion of this or children makes him upset, unaroused and disinterested in that person. There are no societal or religious restrictions on his sexual behaviour. Now I started with; is humanoid, wearing halfplate and the guards colours for the city, bearing standard guards weapons for this city and wants to have fun, eat and sleep when their guard shift ends soon. See how these random rolls fill in the details! (I have charts for human appearance, Tiefling appearance, etc.) anyways if the ‘charming’ pansexual bard was female she wouldn’t even get a roll with the version 1 of the city guard, however the DC to persuade the version 2 guard into bed is very low the DC would go up if they mention; long term relationships and/or children. In conclusion I highly recommend random charts and determining these key details as soon as the players seem keen on potential seduction. Great video thanks.
This checks out except for the double concentration (enhance ability + guidance), which someone mentioned earlier, and the cutting words. As DM I'd rule that you can't cutting words someone you're trying to persuade. In this scenario, being antagonistic to someone you're trying to persuade (and not deceive) would impose disadvantage on your roll or advantage on the NPC's opposing roll. Minor factors I disagree with. The rest of it totes works.
You can't use bend luck on your own rolls, and how are you using a reaction for it and cutting words in the same round? And how are you concentrating on guidance and enhance ability at the same time?
to be fair with a high wisdom and charisma with a solid hp score from your 7d10 from fighter and extra attack they could potentially be fairly rounded but just be really good at their gimmick. Its not like they can ONLY do that and everything else is just garbage right? charisma for bard spells, fighter/ paladin for 2 fighting styles and heavy armor + any weapon they want. and its not like you can just completely ignore any and all persuasion checks and if you do you are a shit dm lol
I'll do you one (well actually 18) better, making the absolute total 73. Have a high level bard use telepathy on the player doing the check. Using bardic inspiration gives another D12. And the pièce de resistance the historian feat - using telepathy the bard is able to make take the help action giving advantage and the historian feat to add their own proficiency bonus to the roll as well.
Lore Bard 15 peerless skill and expertise 1d12 + (double profeciency) take guidance cantrip as feat or magical secrets Devotion Paladin +5 bonus (does not stack with others) Draconic Sorcerer 1 x2 persuasion on dragons base is ((6*2)*2)Proficiency/Expertise/Draconian ancestry+5(devotion)+1d12(peerless skill)+1d4(guidance)+5(charisma mod) 24+5+5+1d12+1d4 34+(2-16) Minimum +36 Maximum +50 D20 roll is 1-20 so min is 37 and max is 70 vs dragons But wait there's more, take 3 ioun stones of mastery and 2 books of of charisma making max stat 24 with a +7 modifier and proffiency of a +9 instead of a +6: so 36+5+7+1d12+1d4 1d20+48+(2-16) Min is 51 max is 84 with an average of 67.5 Peerless skill takes no action so you can cutting words as a reaction. So that means we can counter check Without magic its 37-70 with a minus 1-12 on the DC and with magic items its 51-84 with a minus 1-12 on the DC that is if you have the magic items and roll perfect you can have an effective ****96 Charisma Check*****
D&D 5e does have a general lack of social rules compared to the other parts of the game, but heavens take a gander at Palladium some time. A high mental affinity attribute gives the character a percentage which is called "bonus to trust/intimidate." In the forty year history of the company, not a one of its games has ever explained how to use this stat. Is it a bonus added to skill rolls? Is it a target number for its own roll? It's up to the GM to house rule the matter, and most ignore the stat altogether.
Last campaign I played in we got to past 15th level.. Our goliath barbarian and he had a huge persuasion check cause he got expertise from deck of many things
Starting a campaign soon playing a Kalashtar Eloquence Bard that will eventually multi to Fey Wanderer Ranger & get the actor Feat & tepathically incept thoughts into people heads in their voice using Deception skill.
you will have a base +22 to persuasion with this build without using any active abilities, that is technically better than the rogues never rolling below a 27 with reliable talent on average. not to mention you still have all those magic items for adding dice to ability checks
You won't get your ASI's until you're level 4 in those classes. Assuming you're sticking with Standard Array, that means you can put a 15 in Cha and a 13 in Wis with Human Variant for 16 Cha and 14 Wis (I'd put the other 14 in Con). So with Level 3 Bard, you're going to get, at best, 3 + 4 + 2 (1d4) = 9. You then switch to Fighter for level 7 Samurai. You got at least 1 ASI now, so I'll assume you put it into 18 Cha. Now you're looking at 4 + 8 + 2 + 2 (1d4) = 16. Add another level 3 with the Redemption Paladin at level 13 to bump that up to 4 + 10 + 2 + 2 (1d4) + 5 = 23. With the level 6 Sorcerer for Wild Mage at level 19, you can finally get your second ASI and let's say you put it into Cha again for 20. Now, you roll 5 + 12 + 2 + 2 (1d4) + 5 + 2 (1d4) = 29 at Advantage. You can crank it up to 30 if you put your last level to go into Bard Level 4 to get one last ASI. So, 30 + 20 = 50. At best, you're looking at 34 assuming you roll max on both 1d4s. I want to how how you're getting to 55. Did I miss something? Edit: Bend Luck from the Sorcerer only works on another creature (RAW). So, you'd have to drop that 1d4 on yourself.
![[ADD] Add a village to your next TTRPG session, here's why!](/img/1.gif)
Out of the Box: Encounters for 5th Edition - bit.ly/OotBE
so we can become alcibiades ruclips.net/video/kRLkjBUgB2o/видео.html
What if there was a setting where all Half-breeds came from a group of ancient bards, or a country of these spawn?
- I went with the Ethereal summoner pledge. Is there any way I could pay an addition amount (without having to just pledge another $40+cnd ) to just get the hardcover book added ?
a tip : you can watch series on flixzone. Been using it for watching loads of movies during the lockdown.
@Mohammad Louis Yup, I have been watching on Flixzone} for months myself :D
A 55 charms the DM for the rest of the session. You acquire the McGuffin, turn the BBEG towards the light, and convince Valve to release Half-Life 3.
You can't make that check its against valve personality to release half life 3
@@kholtsclaw5266 55 to persuasion doesn't care, it defies valve's mediocre logic
By the time the bard gets to the level where they can roll 50’s, the party has most likely started their own kingdom.
Dead Humorous but with that 50+ persuasion that kingdom now has half dragons
Yeeteth Yoinketh can’t argue with that
Kalashtar for psychic glamour. 12 levels in rogue swashbuckler for expertise, panache, and reliable talent. 8 levels in fighter samurai for elegant courtier. max cha and wis.
+22 to persuasion min roll of 32, with advantage on all persuasion checks. max is only 42 but panache lets you charm a creature.
hmm, wouldn't charm not help you at all if you already have advantage on persuasion checks?
plus you'll be able to back up your words with a little muscle. trying to build a charisma fighter and this might be just what I need.
@@nyanbrox5418 depends if your DM makes you roll deception as well if you're trying to use a false premise in your persuasion or you decide blunt force intimidation is more appropriate for what you want.
@@TheJackman007 oh does the samurai skill not simply apply to all charisma checks, well yeah ok that kinda makes sense to have charm then.
wait isn't charm a wisdom save, like not very effective on elves and those with high insight.
well i guess you need to be like a rogue using expertise in insight to catch you out then, but thats still only gonna work when you are lying. ok this is a super build
A warforged designed for social encounters? Sounds like C3PO.
Bryan Smith why have you awakened me without skin? Raw nerves exposed to the world! Every step is a new nightmare.
And one time, he randomly says to the party, "We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life."
I imagine something like a robot butler who has been created to teach etiquette to generations of a specific family, since they never age, and something had gone awry leading them to travel the world. something with manners akin to the kingsman mentor.
ZoulsGaming I would name him Jeeves, so that I may ask him.
That's more R2D2
Going 14+ lore bard, 3+ levels paladin is better. With guidance, cutting words, and channel divinity, expertise and peerless skill. Max rolls gives you 20+17+12+12+5+4=70, average is 47, with glibness you can bring the average up to 52. Add simulacrum for another inspiration dice d12, and you can roll a max of 82. Wonder what you can do with deception rolls of 82.
Unfortunately a creature can only have one bardic inspiration at a time but love everything else
“I am the real you. You are merely a simulacrum of me.”
@@chrisvelo2595 peerless skill can stack with inspiration from another bard. They're separate abilities.
@@havok8570 you right
Would you be able to add Halfling (Greater Mark of Hospitality) for 1d6, Bend luck from wild sorcerer ally (1d4) as well as guidance?
Assuming max rolls
20 on roll
5 from charisma, 6 if used a tome
12 from expertise
12 from peerless
5 from channel divinity
6 from greater mark of hospitality
From ally
12 from Bardic Inspiration
4 from guidance
4 from bend luck
For a max total of 81, minimum of 43 with glibness
I dont know how cutting words would factor in, unless the DM tries for an opposing persuasion check?
If you make a rogue Kalashtar with 16 of wisdom, psychic glamore and expert in insight at level 1 you have a passive insight of 22, no one can lie to you, and you can tell your colleagues by telepathy if someone tries to cheat them 😀.
I leave this here and I make my way out slowly.
PD: sorry mi english :I
If one of my players had a +27 to persuasion, I probably wouldn't even make them roll on the check
"Nat 1"
"So 28"
@@irok1
"But NaT oNe MeANs CRitICal faILurE"
Instead of convincing the villagers to fight against the oppressive lord, you convince them to fight for him and manage to get imprisoned by him
@@jm-nf8xf Nat 1's dont apply to skill checks
@@jm-nf8xf you have advantage and there is no nat ones for ability checks
To people poitning out nat ones don't count on ability checks, yes I know and that's why I capitalized random letters in the sentence to emulate sarcasm to make it a somewhat obvious joke.
*Rolls 55 to convince BBEG to stop doing evil*
Dm: .........
dm: the BBEG has chosen a new path, his new mission is to destroy all of existence, and reform the world in a flawless image, as it's god.
DM decides the man who has dedicated his entire life, and possibly his afterlife to his cause is too determined to be swayed by any words.
Robot202 but he has decided that your ethos should be immortalized beside his own.
“The truth you’ve revealed to me” he says “and never must this truth fail to be spoken.”
“He will be immortalized in undeath to preach the philosophy he taught to you as it is blended with its new and perfected focus through rotted eyes.”
“Go!” He shouts to his remaining guards. “Find the headmaster of... -what school did he say he went to again? Oh yes there.
Find this great sage! Bring him to me, dead AND alive!”
He has sent wights to take your mentor into eternity with them.
They’ve left, running toward your hometown on fetid legs.
You could stop them in time, but that would mean Bbeg the necromancer escapes again.
Another village will die before the moon turns as he replaces the minions you trashed and turned away, pushing so deep into the catacombs to find him this time.
Be careful when you talk to strangers, no matter what the roll.
@@twilightgardenspresentatio6384 This is how you deal with high rolling shenanigans. Wish I could like it twice.
If they have expertise when your proficiency's maximum (+6x2=+12) and have max charisma (+5)
They get a total of +17
And if the d20 & they were given a maximum inspiration die (d12) and a guidance spell (d4) and they all landed on their maximum value
You get **20+12+17+4=53**
53 is the maximum skill roll you have in D&D normally
Persuasion isn't mind control. As others have said, the DC to persuade someone into doing something antithetical is infinity, because no check can do that.
the issue lies that while i 100% agree with that definition, then that would basically make this build useless, or rather "overgeared" if a much lower skill can achieve the same result, where in most cases it definitely can.
although can't people irl convince people to do something they would never do in a million years given time
@@EricBohm ,
Over the course of several months or years... that has happened before. It takes a very long time for people to change that much. Persuasion is broke because of DMs.
@@aralornwolf3140 it is definitely possible to brainwash someone over a reasonable amount of time. None of the broken persuasion check stories match that scenario. They're all *boop* "I will give you all the things because this chat won me over" variations.
30 straight up in lore is a player doing the impossible if you check.
Never, and I mean _never,_ should you underestimate the charisma skills.
That's what I've been saying! Cha is all one needs. With Cha, you can make Str characters feel bad about themselves. Int, too. Even them Dex guys will cry
All mi characters habe a cha of 8 jajajah, but they always have high wisdom so they can not be cheat easily.
@@KuaEtus It's nice to have certain scores low, based on character. One of my two favorite builds is a Protector Aasimar Order Cleric that goes either Feyloc or Valor Bard. They have 15 str, 14 con, low dex and about 12 int. However, they have good Cha and Wis. I also play a bit of monks, rangers and played a druid, and considering clerics more often these days. I love to have my insight and often times, perception, too. The observant feat is a favorite
I love playing my super greasy and gross Dwarven Wizard with a CHA of 8.
@@ashenwuss1651 i love that feet too, I said in another comment a build that you might like:
"If you make a rogue Kalashtar (wayfinder's guide to Eberron pag 62) with 16 of wisdom, psychic glamore and expert on insight at level 1 you have a passive insight of 22, no one can lie to you, and you can tell your colleagues by telepathy if someone tries to cheat them 😀."
PD: again, sorry mi english :P
That explains how half-orcs are a thing. Human bards are charming orcs left and right.
Them human bards are just so dang persuasive.
Nerdarchist Dave
Well the half orc does have access to prodigy so the skills can be passed down.
those orcish bards charming humans all over the place.
Those awkward moments when the Bard realizes he's (she's?) been ditched by the party and only has a guitar and a dagger against a whole tribe of orcs... ;o)
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 Let's just hope those orcs are from Many Arrows and not other orcs or deserters from Many Arrows.
With their king trying to rebuild his kingdom and trying to seek peace with humans the bard might find themselves a part of a political negotiation.
At least King Lorgru would make sure the bard returns to the party via negotiation. Yet good luck on Many Arrows trying to make peace with dwarves. The dwarf in the party may just want to kill them all regardless in order to rescue the bard.
Guidance and enhance ability are both concentration, so you better have that cleric wingman with you...:)
oh no only 51 persuasion what a travesty.
look im sure you can find a ioun stone of concentration somewhere. or just ask someone for it as im sure they will just give you whatever you want at this point.
since you are quite literally killgrave
I once had a 29 passive perception on accident with a bard/rogue. The GM ruled "Your passive perception is actually 15 but you have permanent truesight."
I made a fire genasi cleric with 23 passive perception but I had advantage on all perception checks. The dm made it so I could survey everything at a glance, but traps must be investigated for.
If one of my players, especially the bard, rolled a 55, I would legitimately get up and leave the room.
if there was another Bard in the party, they could inspire the one doing the check. adding anywhere from a 1d6 to 1d12 boost to the roll. Creating a range from 31 to 67
What can't you get with an 87 persuasion check.
@@stevencooper1103 some dms, rightly in my mind, think about persuasion as a check to see if you succeed with a real and possible thing. A high roll doesn't convince something that would never happen
@@AllThingsFascinate If 30 is nearly imposible shouldn't over 50 be imposible?
@@AllThingsFascinate yes. I think there should be a monster persuasian manual.
Keep in mind there are already hard limits on what can happen. Most persuasion magic, for example, won't allow you to make your target kill itself or do harm to itself.
If magic can't force that to happen, neither should your sweet words. Things like handing over a kingdom would also be ineffective, unless you include extras like fake documents, disguises, deception rolls, etc.
TBH if I wanted to specialize in something social, I'd go with deception more than persuasion. It's easier to succeed in making a lie believable than getting crazy things to happen just through nice conversation, other than a one night stand seduction lol.
I disagree with you completely. Magic to "persuade" is essentially magically forcing them to agree, and a beings will power may impose limits on that magical force. However sweet words as you called it is really just a convincing argument. A person who is convinced that something is true, believes that thing them self, so there is no opposing will. A true master of manipulation is more powerful than magic because the target willingly agrees with you of their own free will. That is a massive difference than what magic tries to do.
Hannibal lecter would disagree
Another youtuber i watched put it into words that clicked for me "Saying that you should be able to convince the king that you are the king if you roll high enough, would be like saying you can jump to the moon by rolling a high enough athletics check", i think i would basically let the person succeed every persuasion check the person might be inclined to do, maybe even treat it like magic and go a bit further, however if they will start developing a reputation that they can charm anything and anybody and nobody should listen to anything they say, maybe even be captured, gagged and treated like a tool for persuading enemy political factions, not in an evil way or anything, also if they wanted to dedicate that much to persuading people then ofc i would let them have fun with it, but if its going to disrupt the game or just be assumed as a permanent charm then i would rather turn it into a straight up charm ability, like an innate ability.
You're getting a bit too much reality in there. Not the first part, that I agree with. But the no one listening part is going out of your way to punish a player for playing a particular type of character and that's just no bueno as a GM. You don't have people not fight combats because the Barbarian is good at combat, or not use magic because the Wizard can identify it. I think the reputation bit is good enough. People in the world having heard of you seems more than fair, they plan for ways around you, the same as town guards that have seen the Barb throw a man a dozen feet, or enemy spellcasters having a counterspell.
@@LupineShadowOmega "You don't have people not fight combats because the Barbarian is good at combat, or not use magic because the Wizard can identify it" if the badguy has any intelligence he would prepare charm spells for the barbarian, and anti magic zones against the wizard, atleast to whatever extent there is.
Constantly persuading people to do things that they dont want to do and using them to further your own goals would be the actual moves of a psychopath, which i mean if they want to play that is 100% fine, but that only works as long as you keep moving. If we assume that numbers matters up to that extent then imagine the consequences of going around casting charm on every single person you meet, afterwards making them regret what they did, regardless of its magic or not they would assume it was something akin to it, which would be punished.
Not that i ever imagine i would need to deal with that high of a persuasion check, and if they did my players arent pricks enough to abuse it, was a case of "what if the players want to abuse a playstyle" then there would be lashback, people arent going to hunt them down and tie them for making a grieving wife feel better by talking to her, but if they constantly go around to noble houses and make them do things they dont want to do? or end up trying to persuade the wrong person? then there would be consequences, Much like if you had the 24 strength barbarian go around punching through houses and walls because they were too lazy to use the door there would be consequences, or the wizard who can use wish, hell even less than that might be abused by the people in power.
If you have a build, thats cool, but im not worried about it since if it goes to an extent i find detrimental i will just do something about it, like literally everything else. and it punishes a playstyle? if the player goes around and bangs everything they meet circumventing everything with the same single roll then that isnt as much a playstyle as not playing the game.
@@zoulsgaming9455 yes I'm sure that ambassadors, courtiers, lawyers, and mediators are all psychopaths. >_>
Getting people to change their opinions on things is a time tested skill and isn't automatically nefarious. Also, as the DM you should probably know the difference between something magically forcing someone to do something and people using social wiles to their advantage. Those are very different things and one of them has consequences because of its magical nature.
People in this very comments section have pointed out how you shouldn't even have a roll if something is literally impossible or goes against the basic personality of a creature. The only exception probably being something like Charm or Friends that is an actual work of magic and comes with consequences for this fact.
As the DM you are the arbitrator of the rules. And the world. If you think something shouldn't be possible with a roll then it isn't. However you shouldn't punish a character or their player just because you didn't expect a type of character. Instead you play and give reasons for why things play out the way they do. So the no one believing bit is no fun and arguably being a dick. Meanwhile, "People have heard of you and thus warn their business partners and lock up their daughters." is not.
The Noble example is again flawed, because "do what they don't want to do is vague" and doesn't necessarily fit. Heck, what does it mean to "abuse it" really. If you're walking around making deals with people, I'd assume the way you're thought of afterward would depend on what you did and how you did it. You're good as your word, I doubt people are going to feel the need to do anything. They might say "Damn that dude is good at haggling" but I doubt there would be a need for consequences. If you go around cheating people, again that can be solved by the reputation bit. If you get a rep as a con-man and cheat, then less people are going to want to deal with you. Or if not less, maybe the wrong kinds of people, maybe you become a mark for a cheat yourself.
If you want to go around banging everything, what difference does it make? How is that not a playstyle? People play the game for tons of different reasons, be they RP, Crunch, Fluff, Storytelling, etc.
If someone wants to be a flamboyant ladies man (their gender and orientation could be any), freaking let them. Especially as that too is going to have story elements attached to it. Like I said, being good at convincing people of things isn't the same as mind control.
If a character is always convincing people to sleep with them, then that's a two way street. Both parties bring their own issues and anyone that has ever been in a relationship knows how volatile that can be. Me being me they'd get a Scott Pilgrim style conglomeration of evil exes, but for less dramatic people, spies, people using you, the list goes on really.
Again, I don't see us as disagreeing too much here, I just feel that you're being way too heavy handed about a situation that would handle itself rather organically if the DM is thinking around a problem or what they see as one instead of wanting to nuke it from orbit just to be sure.
@@LupineShadowOmega You are correct, i dont think we disagree, i think you are misunderstanding what it is i am writing, for your example, lets use drunken hookups instead, people get persuaded to do something while drunk, they regret it the day after, that regret sticks as you mentioned, the ex's. However the general consensus goes from the idea that if you roll high enough almost anything is possible, i would say not, and if we were to treat say 50 as an actual number that mattered, then that would be almost akin to a straight up charm spell if we also assume that 1 is a horrible failure making a fool out of yourself, and 30 is considered "impossible".
You cant say "oh its not about people abusing it" because that is precisely what im talking about, as you conveniently ignored, if people go around curing depression with happy words or making the world a better place then they aint gonna be targeted. But forexample, what is the difference on persuasion and intimidation? i see the consequences as similar, if you went up an used intimidation of 50 on a person they would do whatever the hell you want them to, out of fear for their lives, that has consequences, likewise charming them up with persuasion to the point where they agree to something that they know is a bad idea might also have consequences. If they go around and sleep with every wife and every daughter, then i would tell them to get out of my game because in my game sex and sexuality isnt much of a thing since i dont feel like doing erotic roleplay for them. Going around and ABUSING, using it to your every advantage with complete disregard for player, story, prep, dm, or anything else, is a abuse, expecting to solve every encounter by making anybody give up, or fall for their charms, or sleep with them is the equivalent to solving everything with combat and murder hoboing, which isnt fun either.
If i wanted to abuse this i would personally make a changeling with actor and charlatan, and just keep changing personalities and do whatever the hell i wanted, but what fun is that, likewise if my player wanted to make a kalashtar with persuasion advantage and this high persuasion they would need an extremely good reason to do so or take a hike.
I wouldnt let them roll for something that is impossible, however i feel as soon as people get that high in rolls then it doesnt matter and it just breaks the game, it would be like a person who has +20 to his attack modifier, why the hell would i ever bother rolling? if a person wanted to make this character for a oneshot as a smoothtalking swashbuckler esque type then that would be super cool, but if it was something where they would solve every single issue, them alone, never giving any spotlight time to the other 3 people in the party then that would be an issue, mainly because persuasion is such a vague check that seems to work in a near infinite amount of possibilities, entirely overshadowing deception and intimidation.
Regardless this built is just absurd and will break the game entirely, its like the massive skeleton army necromancer builds, they are fun in theory but if a player wanted to do that then we are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay outside the normal rules of the game, even if it can be done with the rules of the game, a 30 is the highest skillcheck in the book suggested as "impossible" so anything over that also just bends the rules of the game and universe to their will if you believe in the dice mattering that much, if you dont then throw this entire build out the window because it doenst matter.
TL:DR : If a player wants to abuse a persuasion this high to get everybody to bend to his will then there will be consequences if its for a good story reason, and if its to powerplay then he would get booted from my game. Also, dont be a prick and tell me how to play my table, as i wont tell you how to play yours.
For anyone reading these super long comments and wanted a summery, help understanding, or for the people above that don't know what they are talking about her you go:
Firstly Definitions:
Persuasion is the skill for getting someone to do something that they have no objection to doing normally.Deception is the skill for making someone believe something that they might not have believed before. Intimidation is the skill for getting someone to do something that they normally would object to doing, using fear to do so.
Secondly Risk/Reward:Reward: If you wanted to go to bed with a random lady, for example, using Persuasion might work if that lady was attracted to you, using Deception might work if you convinced that lady that their future sun would be the king and so going to bed with you would be good for them, and using Intimidation might work to make a lady attracted to you and therefor go to bed with you.
Risk: If you used Persuasion, the risk could be that rumors would be spread and the lady would ruin her reputation, then she would get mad seeking revenge against you. If you used Deception, than whatever you told her, when it didn't happen, she might declare that you lied and seek revenge, using your new status to further her gains. And if you used Intimidation she might run off to a powerful person to protect her from you, maybe using this other person to avenge her.
Whatever the risk is that the DM decides, It should be fair for the thing that you did, and I say risk because the lady might have liked the time you spent together. As a player, Never hog the spotlight from the other players and make sure that what you what to do is ok with them first, you don't want to lose your friends to a silly game.
Thirdly Stats:
If a player gets a 50 in say Persuasion normally, than as a DM it's not strictly about success or failure, I would say It's about making sure that Persuasion is the right check to be making in that case. Moderating the game is one of the jobs of the DM, If your a DM don't skip to Nerfing the build because it's annoying, talk to the player first, than implement higher risks, and then finally if things are still broken Nerf the ability. Maybe when skills get this high it's the time to use Crits in your skill checks if you haven't already been.
I see now that talking about this makes long comments, sorry for that. If you are the DM and you don't want to run a game the way I am saying, that is fine. I am only giving my opinion and hoping your ok with it. I am only like 16 years old so what do I know? but as you should be, Stay Nerdy.
Personally, for something like asking a king to hand over his kingdom, I'd probably place an additional modifier to the opposing roll. However, I'd say a 55 is enough to nearly persuade gods.
While it might not grant yoh the kingdom it grant you unprecedented access to the king.
Nerdarchist Dave
I usually say that some things are impossible to persuade regardless how high the roll is.
My old group stopped using Exploding Dice when I rolled a 96 total to Bluff (4 20s) with my Ranger in Pathfinder. We played that you rolled Bluff before RPing the check so you could play the Bluff...
I rolled 96 (last 3 throws were the DM's die) and looked up with a grin and said in character:
"Hey look! A random and convenient distraction!"
they forgot about the two magical items that increase charisma and wisdom by 2 and max of 2, allowing an extra 2 to the check allowing it to be 32 - 57
so
I DM'd my first game a couple weeks back, and ran Krenkos way. The rouge decided to walk up and knock on Falish's door, was greeted to a feapon in the face, but said they were wanting to perform a heist on a bank, told them to roll, they rolled a nat 20. I think it was 24 total. So now she is convinced they want to break into and rob the most secure bank in the city.
loving the new cameras and angles and editing, great job with the build too guys!
One important thing to note is if your DM lets you make a Mark of Hospitality Halfling, you can add a d4 to any persuasion check and a d6 at level 8 with the feat. So the build I'm currently doing is Lore Bard 14/ Redemption Paladin 6. I only went 6 because of "Aura of Protection", not really for the persuasion part of the build. At level 20 it has a max roll of 62, although very unlikely. d20 + d10 (Peerless Skill) + d6 (Greater Dragonmark (Hospitality)) + d4 (Guidance) + 5 (Cha) + 6 (Prof) + 6 (Expertise) + 5 (Emissary of Peace)
Bards the true monsters
Make this build
Go into a game
Walk into a room with bbeg
Walk out to the rest of your party assuring them they won’t cause any more trouble, you gave them a stern talking to.
You can take skill expertise as a feat and make your persuasion an expert then channel divinity as a redemption paladin. It is pretty damn good
yeah, rules as written the speech skills are basically mind control. Door monster explains it wonderfully in their D&D diplomacy video. I have fun with it that way, but I know a lot of dms don't. honestly, if they don't work like that then there's really no reason to use them. if they don't produce visible results, you're better off just hitting stuff with a hammer. Example: magic talking sentient puzzle door, if you don't want to solve the puzzle you can go around, you can try and smash it down, or you can roll that persuasion check. "may I please go through?" "Well since you asked nicely, sure".
Thats a bit believable atleast. Our DM gave us the example of asking a King to give you his kingdom, you roll well and he spares your life instead of executing you.
I like the middle ground, Wormtongue in LoTR has a hold on the king, so much that he is in charge, but the king still 'has' his kingdom. (Im sure this is wrong since theres obviously some spell combined with him but you get the trope)
@@Yarxov ...i'd rather get the kingdom. i'm all for the ridiculous on those nat 20 rolls.
You did forget about warlock fiend. At level 6 you can add a d10 to Ability check or saving throw. PS you can use the tome to get guidance.
So... Changeling takes the King’s shape, and the Kenku uses his performance skill to throw his voice and sound like the King.
The kingdom is ours!
Well until the real king shows up. Now let the hijinks begin.
Nerdarchist Dave
Nerdarchy He’s an imposter! I’M the real King! *rolls 55 persuasion* 😜
The dice have spoken.
The king is bewildered, thinks that you might be a devil. Will contemplate your proposal, using the time to fortify his hold against devils and magic.
You guys are so close to 100k subs! I'm glad i could join the party
Thanks. We are on our way.
Nerdarchist Dave
Good work! Remember that Deception and Intimidation are a thing too! You might not Persuade a King to abdicate, but Deception can spread rumours he plans to disinherit the Crown Prince. You might say, "nobody would believe that" "yeah they would".
If the GM rules that you lie is obviously not true, you don't _get_ to roll.
You'd have to have a plan and work on it for sometime. But seems plausible to me. Same with persuading a King to abdicate, one roll won't do it. But if you : poison the King so he starts acting crazy then spread rumours of it among the commoners, then go and bribe, blackmail, or persuade the nobles to support the Crown Prince (or yourselves) instead then sure.
This is why I tell my players not to power game a stat it doesn't matter what you as the player thinks about the lie. The ruling on the lie being too farfetched is actually a rule in the game I don't have to always let you roll. Do I want to tell you no. Not always but if the rulers kids are good aligned they aren't going to be inclined to believe something like that if they're parent doesn't act that way toward them bonds between characters matter enough to render rolling pointless.
@@kholtsclaw5266
Certainly at my table, I try to make sure that players will always be better off imagining their PCs as real people in a real situation and _just telling me_ what their character is going to try to do and how they are trying to do it than they will by trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat by using a rules loophole.
In my experience at least, one of the prime causes of players coming up with retarded plans - and not just in social interaction -that crash and burn is this failure to imagine, "What if this situation were real?" and actually roleplay.
The best way to handle this is make the player role-play the persuasion. If they can't come up with a scenario where such a persuasion attempt makes any kind of sense then don't let it succeed.
For example a prisoner trying to persuade a guard to open the cell door, give them their sword, and then allow the prisoner to lock them in the cell while they escape. What if the prisoner was accused of murdering people the guard knows, maybe even other guards during a previous escape attempt. What if the guard serves an evil sorcerer who'll do terrible things to them if the prisoner escapes? What could the prisoner say or offer that could convince that guard?
But if the players do their homework and make a persuasion attempt that makes sense as the DM you should give it a chance to work. My players convinced a Lawful Evil Blackguard (paladin) to abandon his allies by pointing out that they were behaving in chaotic ways that were at odds with that Blackguard's vows. The blackguard listened, stated "this is no longer my fight", and walked away.
But if you allow the die to be rolled as the DM you should respect the result. Back in 2e D&D days a psionic character going through the Q series modules killed Lolth twice with psychic crush by roll 1% each time. RNG gives and RNG takes away.
You might like this article.
theangrygm.com/help-my-players-are-talking-to-things/
*Runs into a mass of unintelligent creatures that speak no languages and are pissed af at your presence*
I really wish that vicious mockery gained a bonus from persuasion. It doesn't matter whether or not they are unable to understand you, But if you're using gestures with words laced with magic I feel like you can mentally hurt and insult anyone.
Big factors is you can't persuade someone to do something completely outside of their personality.
But can you convince someone that something he thought was completely outside their personality is actually NOT outside their personality?
You can try but if they aren't intelligent enough to understand your argument it doesn't matter.
@@Stormeris Depends on if that's outside of their personality :P
At that point, if you roll 3 natural 20s in a row for a total of +35 each time, sure. You can fuck Vecna. Congrats. Campaign over. Let me know the names of any kids you have/adopt together and may the two of you live happily ever after.
My point is that it's impossible to convince someone to do a 180 with a single roll, but it might be possible to do 5 times 36 and thus achieve the same effect. Not so much for the memes, but I think it could be really dramatic to have multiple instances where you slowly influence the BBEG to the point where, in the final encounter, you might persuade them to give up on their evil plan entirely.
@@oOPPHOo I reiterate if they aren't intelligent enough to understand your argument you can try to presaude someone all you want if they don't understand the points your making they may just get frustrated with you. Also Vecna wouldn't fuck you that is outside his godly personality, he's going to use you and turn on you before you turn on him at best if you have nothing important to offer him you basically just walked into your own death. He's more likely to turn you into an undead than speak to you he doesn't even talk to his own cultists really.
Of someone got a 55 for persuasion i say screw the rules they can persuade someone to fly through pure belief at that point
I was scrolling past my reccomend feed, and that thumbnail just caught my eye as I was passing through.
Woo hoo! It had one job and it did it.
Nerdarchist Dave
That 55 persuasion roll got you lol
I think I would be mostly impressed that one of my players did this because it would take some time just to make sure it actually works because it's very hard to roll 1 natural 20 just alone but I think the role play would have to be something very creative when talking to someone of power ie- king,queen or anyone in power. But I wouldn't be mad
A slight change that I have seen: though it lowers the max score but it increases the minimum.
By taking 11 levels in rouge, 4 in paladin, 8 in fighter.
That way you get reliable talent and the lowest with rolling you can get is 11. For a minimum of 38, but still have a max of 51.
If you add magic items: a stone of good luck as an item can add an additional +1 to your rolls
A tome of leadership and influence: adds another+1 to cha
And tome of understanding +1 to wis
Now there is a max total of +58 (going with your level spread)
So I like to think about these things by bringing them into the day to day. If you were a king could anybody walk in and convince you to hand them the crown? No they couldn't no matter how glib. Now if it goes from skill to magic then of course all becomes possible. But as long as it is a skill it has limits no matter the roll. Cause confusion? Sure. Seed doubts? Absolutely. But cause you to do something completely against your very core identity? No.
Obviously some of examples were absurd for comedic affect.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy oh yeah I know I was more responding to the discussion in the comments.
A success on an impossible roll equals survival not success.
-You don’t get to seduce the dragon but he may decide he owns you now.
He would have killed you if he didn’t suddenly like you so much.
So you survive, but no... You will never leave again without talking him into thinking you’re just going out for a pack of smokes.
Now you got a young red dragon looking for you in that town you said the two of you would visit together someday
You wanna ghost an adult black dragon, you just messed with the WRONG person. That’s not a breakup you do with a “sending” scroll like it’s a burner cell.
You’d be better off convincing him that you were just a house pet.
With great beating wings and overturned patio tables the great beast lands in a puff of sulfur and the shaking of earth. A glass breaks. The crowd is stricken paralyzed by terror as the beast leans in to ask a waiter,
Huff ...”is this Michaels coffee? I was looking for a small half elven man named Lai who might have stopped in. Maybe you remember him?”
The breaking of another glass in the background.
"I know you must hear this from your food all the time, but you must bleach or something, 'cause that's one dazzling smile you got there...and do I detect a hint of minty freshness?"
(1st Persaude check) *succeeds*
"And you know what else? You know what else? You're-"
(Perception check)*succeeds*
"A girl dragon! Oh sure! I mean...of course you're a girl dragon, 'cause you're just reeking of feminine beauty and..."
(2nd Persuade check) *succeeds*
"Man, I'd really love to stay, but I'm an asthmatic and I don't know if it'd work out, you going to be blowing smoke rings and stuff..."
(3rd Persuade check) *fails, gets carried off by horny dragon*
There is actually a way to get 62 on a max and it starts off with fighter no less. Have a 20 on Charisma giving you a +5 then choose prodigy since you are half elf giving you proficiency on and expertise on persuasion and this so far is just level four and by yourself already have a plus 9 choose the The purple Dragon Knight which doubles your Persuasion profiency bonus and now at level 7 you have a +14 reach up to level 17 now by yourself you have +23 pick up cleric Guidance 1d4 that sorcercer gives you that 1d4 and take three levels of Paladin that you have leftover and pick up the Emissary peace +5. So 23+4+4+5+20=56 and there you go already passed their 55 and the Bard gives you Inspiration +6 and that will give a 62 on a persuasion check
Kind of glad you guys bring this up... AND great video, btw...
I know you guys meant some of the intro' to be a bit looney, for comical purpose, but this is exactly the kind of thing that can deteriorate a game into a rules lawyering versus reality shouting match... AND like so many others, it's best advised for a Table to take it to session-0... or even (should there be inexperience and lack of planning) bring it up as a "tween-session conversation"...
I prefer to handle most of this sort of thing, math/logic to absurdity, with some criteria on the limits of antics... AND we settle the discussion of the relative lunacy tolerance at the Table before anything has a chance to get out of hand.
When math/leveling might get to a degree of game-breaking, there's a compromising trade-off. It's been that way (more or less) since 3.5 came out and really screwed with the statistical models and pertinent limits. Maybe that was a case of "piss poor word choices" in a few key areas... but debatably, it destabilized sizeable chunks of the game through wide open interpretation... and we sought to put a fairly final nail in that coffin for our table.
I'm lucky, and admittedly have story focused Players (for the most part)... So when powers or abilities reach a point where they're either impossible to deal with (without crushing the rest of the party hopelessly) OR so far ahead of XP-schedule, that there's clearly something wrong... either I'll call a Player aside, or (more often) a Player will call me aside for a tentative chat on dropping points from one ability, and adding a reasonable facsimile of worth to some other aspect of the Character...
This is tentative, so the rest of the table can be consulted at some "break point" in the game... AND they get the dubious agency to argue points for or against this trade as "legit"... I'm only a GM, and I'm not perfect. It's always possible I could miss calculate, disturbingly off-set power or balance in the party or the game, and we should be willing and capable of just fixing the issue.
Whether it's a discussion at length, or short and sweet, we have some form of passive vote... where inaction on the matter signifies at least "no argument" against the trade-off... and then get back to the game.
I'm still in charge of whatever narrative in-game actually makes the trade-off happen... so there's a crude logic to it. It's not a matter of "this PC archetype gets plus X in persuasion every Y levels... and will achieve abilities to command gods at will... but the GM can't have that crap"
It's part of the story... Ordinarily the archetype does, but something interesting, magical, or cursed happened to this one... and he can't continue gaining powers in that anymore... if it's any consolation (and it is) he CAN do this other stuff that's really friggin' cool anyways... and normally wouldn't be able to. ;o)
None of this is likely, but it's fun to think about: As a 5th-level Hexblade Warlock with the Dhampir lineage, add a proficiency in Persuasion, with an assumed 16 CHA. Take the Eldritch Smite invocation at 5th level. Use Hexblade Curse (for proficiency bonus) on a creature, as well as Wrathful Smite (for an extra 1d6). Now, attack with Vampiric Bite, expending a 3rd-level spell slot (for an extra 3d8). If you get a crit, on a 19 or 20, you will do 2d4+3+3+1d6+3d8 damage. If you do max damage and add this total to your next Persuasion roll, and then nat 20 the Persuasion, I think you'll get a 70, if I did the math right.
Nothing quite this extreme, but I'm actually planning on playing a smooth talking changeling warlock, master of disguise and manipulation type. I'm not going out of my way to get all that but it should still be pretty cool. Already planning on picking up linguist, will probably get actor too.
Kalashtar (psychic glamour persuasion) mastermind rogue was my personal persuasion master
1. Guidance and enhance abilities are concentration spell so cannot have both by yourself
2 in the PHB they say that if as the DM you deem something impossible (jumping to the moon) no matter how ridiculously high the amount of bonus your player add together, do NOT let them roll. if they cannot roll they cannot roll 20+55+4+12 so no jumping to the moon
I have a 4- eloquence bard 1- hexblade (for armor and shield(s) and was able to get the UA diplomat feat. So I was able to double persuasion twice. Minimum current check is 26 persuasion and 20 deception which will keep climbing
There are definently breakable things in dnd.
Nerdarchist Dave
I would not "remove all the limits" for this, and I know this makes me sound like a fun hater, but hear me out.
If a player builds their character to hit a 55 Persuasion, they've built it so they can do that CONSISTENTLY. If a wild roll gets you something over the top good, once every few sessions? Sure, have that moment. But I'm not having you smugly rolling those dice between your fingers every time I try to threaten you because you can hit a DC 30 check rolling a 1. I'm not having you just talk to every character and getting everything you want and removing every ounce of challenge from the rest of the party. We didn't all gather around the table to watch you roll dice for three hours and talk about how cool you are. We came to have a game as a group where we tell a cool story. Bro.
simple solution:
make persuasion not op. if a character can get a 50 on a strength check, do you let them lift a mountain? i'd say obviously not, no matter how strong you are there are tons of reasons why you can't lift a mountain. some people have a resolve as big as a mountain. you can make you story have characters like that. maybe have slightly less nuanced villains and more pure evil villains. you make a 55 persuasion check, they now exactly what point you are making and why it's a good point, they just don't give a shit. or look at what languages they know and have the opponents not speak that language.
@@vinx.9099
This is the thing. Players should be declaring actions (stating an intention and an approach), not rolls. If a player's stated action cannot achieve their intention, no roll.
I don't give a shit how high your PC's modifier is, the King isn't handing them his crown just because they asked really nicely.
Maybe I missed it, but I missed what the Warlock bonus was? There was a mention of it at the start, twice, but then we got bard, fighter, paladin sorcerer.
Fiend Devil's Own Luck I believe.
Nerdarchist Dave
I love this! I like to imagine a baddie boss being like Kilgrave from Jessica Jones. Persuading people to do anything he says.
did you see the end of season 3 of jessica jones?
Well I believe with enough finesse overtime a solid plan of persuasion And manipulation you can definitely get a king to hand you over his kingdom
I'd allow it because a social munchkin is gonna be weak in other areas lol. Especially a multiclasser like the one you're suggesting.
The wild Sorc alone will probably tpk the campaign before the 55 check becomes an issue. 😋
i'm running a heavy social campaign right now, and i have 2 strong cha characters. A paladin and a bard. i have had to rule situations with over 25 already, without any "power game combo" and i have not doubt that i will have some over 30 in a few sessions.
The premise for me, is to make the game interesting. So if you can "convice" a king of giving everything to you in your first meeting, or seduce a deamon lord.
a) its boring.
b) its an experience inmersion break.
So my rule is when you make a roll on that kind of situations, and you have an outstanding performance. The situation would "change" but not in the way that braks everything. The king would laugh at you, and give you some gift and offer you to be the new buffon of the court. or the deamon lord would try to capture you to use you as a sex toy, instead of killing you. if you are talking with a dragon, could be he gives you a quest instead of attaking you. and things like that... "rule of coolness aplied"
I notice that the Divine Soul Sorcerer (Xanathar's Guide), allows the character to learn or swap out (when available) a Sorcerer or a Cleric cantrip or spell, thus not needing to take the Magic Initiate Feat. The Aasimar (Protector) has stat bonuses to WIS (+1) & CHA (+2).
You can't swap out cantrips that you have chosen but it does at least let you choose new ones from either list.
The horrifying part is:
They stopped with scores at 20. You can have Magical Bonuses that bring your scores past 20!
I want to see this done with intimidation any enemy that sees just cowers in fear their is no better way to run through a goblin camp than scaring the crap out of all the goblins and walking right up to their boss a butchering him and telling the goblins they work for you now
My friend was in a homebrew game where this basically happened. He didn't have crazy intimidation, but on more than one occasion he crit the roll and the enemey crit failed the save against it and so they had a heart attack and died. Eventually their DM gave him an intimidation aura, so that enemies who got near him just had to make a save against being intimidated. I think he even gave a king a heart attack by accident because he was intimidating a group of people and the king just happened to walk into it and crit failed the save.
Ioun Stone of Mastery for +7 proficiency instead of +6, which is doubled to +14 instead of +12 with expertise. So that's a 57 persuasion.
Some of these use concentration, or reaction. Only one concentration spell, only one reaction. Useful video guys, but quite an oversight.
the swashbuckler rogue's panache ability is super powerful
I've used it multiple times on a Rakshasa, one of the only ways to charm them due to their limited magic immunity
my adorable 6 year old half elf bard girl with +13 persuasion, guidance, hex, cutting words, and a host of other shit that builds off of that just made me LOVE persuasion XD. She can bullshit her way out of anything. You have no idea how "oh, I am just a kid" can get you out of sticky situations when you've said the wrong thing or happen to be at the wrong place.
The Kalashtar have "Psychic glamure" that give them advantage on Persuasión, Insight, Intimidation, or Performance, and have TELEPATHI, they can speach in your mind and make you think their are you conscience!!! That can break anyone if you study the person enough.
Sorry my english :P, you are awesome :D.
This gets even crazier when you add magic items. Ioun stone of mastery adds 1 to your proficiency which makes your expertise give +14. Stone of good luck adds +1 to skill checks. Scroll of Glibness means that now, anytime you roll lower than a 15 on the dice it is counted as a 15.
This means that your check is now at +30, with 2d4 and a minimum of a 15 on the dice for a range of 53-58
This build got so much better with eloquence bard
You guys did forget that you could also add bardic inspiration to the roll.
A Transformer built for partying? Did you mean Blaster?
Oh you went there.
Nerdarchist Dave
I haven't watxhed the video, but the Terry Thackery meme makes me happy.
I had a bard/monk in my first full length campaign I ran. I jokingly called it the Way of the Cadence.
I actually may want to try to develop this...
Only thing I noticed that was off with this is that Bad Luck can only be used on another creature, so instead of 30-55 the range is 29-51. Still thoroughly impressive.
The book sounds great, good luck with it. Also I think of cartography as functional art.
As a DM it doesnt matter what the player rolls,it's not magic.There is and should be limits on what a skill check can do
Sexually exhausted those orcs to save the party... What a man.
I find it funny whenever people don't suggest Rogue is a CHA class. It's the only class that gets all four CHA skills outside of Bards. The only intelligence skill it gets is Investigation, and Insight and Perception are their only wisdom skills, and a couple subclasses rely heavily on CHA immediately after DEX.
Dip your Rogue in Hexbade and throw on some medium armor and a shield while rocking that Booming Blade and you’ve got yourself a full on Charisma class.
@@M0ebius Arguably even better than Paladin, as you can still rely wholly on DEX, if you take Armor of Shadows at War2.
Tom Forge Personally I prefer Eldritch Blast/Agonizing Blast/Repelling Blast. Between EB and Booming Blade you have great options both in melee and at range, each combining with Cunning Action to add a whole new battlefield control element to the Rogue - soft lock with BB into disengage or disengage into forced movement push with EB, depending on the situation. You don’t need more than 14 Dex since your AC will already be at 19 backed up by the Shield spell.
And in some ways you are a better Eldritch Blaster than a full Warlock because you also have at-will advantage on EB if you Cunning Action Hide.
The way to fix this in my opinion is to remember that the dice roll doesn't control everything. There are some things you just cannot persuade someone to do, no matter how high the roll. Idk I use rolls like this when I'm not sure what the outcome is. If I'm a shopkeeper and you want my goods for free, I'm not just gonna give them to you no matter how hard you try. If the shopkeeper has a viable reason to be open to this, that's another matter.
Dark ones own luck, fiend warlock lets you add a d10 to the roll. But you don’t get it until level 6, not sure if you looked into this yet
Variant Human: Prodigy. Expertise in Persuasion. Samurai Fighter Archetype. Cap Wisdom and Charisma.
Ioun stone of mastery for an additional +2, stone of good luck for +1 and an epic boon if you exceed level 20
Guidance and Enhance Ability both use concentration.
If you go divine soul, you can add 2d4 without any spell use or action loss.
What? Another Kenku build?
Damnit. I was typing this joke in, then you guys mentioned Kenku. Ah, I'm not surprised. Gg, dudes!
Star Wars Campaign. Clone Wars Era. One of my party members nearly solved the whole war by convincing the Droids that he was a prophet of "Machanicron" and that they should rise up against all organics. Successive crits lead to a wide spread massacre across an entire planet, though it was a good distraction, and would probably have lead to some interesting developments if the game hadn't fully imploded. ALL HAIL MACHANICRON, PERSUASION FOR THE WIN.
Say use logic for persuasion and other skill checks. I say ‘no roll’ if it’s no possible without magic. Also I use random dice creation charts for various things for the NPCs (if I don’t already have the in my notes) such as (but not limited too); gender, race, other physical details, mood, sexuality (orientation), sexuality( horniness and fidelity) , preferred appearance/race of potential partners (chart based on world), goals, religious/similar restrictions, etc. So roll quickly (I have the on hand on cards) I can say roll this for the same guardVersion 1) female, human, muscular and 5’7”; long wavy deep brown hair, brown skin with black eyes, one thin scar on the right cheek and wearing half plate beating a halberd in the cities colours. She is in a frustrated mood and brooks no insult. Straight and persuadable to more casual sex but looking more for a monogamous long term relationship. She prefers muscular men of more mammalian humanoid build hasn’t yet been with a less mammalian person. Seeks to competently finish her shift then go relax, have fun and sleep. She gas no societal or religious pressures against casual sex but has the pressure of her family to have ‘legitimate children’ luckily anti fertility tea is available to prevent unwanted pregnancy at low cost and no danger. Version 2) a male, Tiefling slender and 6’ tall long curving black horns with pink skin and solid golden eyes. His hair is straight deep purple and cut at the shoulders. Wearing halfplate in the towns colours he has a loaded crossbow slung over his shoulders and a long sword at his hip. He is in a happy affable mood and loves telling jokes. Pansexual and very easily persuaded to have sex with anyone adult. He seeks sex after his shift ends shortly as well as music, a good meal and sleep. He does not want or seek any kind of serious long term relationship and even a suggestion of this or children makes him upset, unaroused and disinterested in that person. There are no societal or religious restrictions on his sexual behaviour.
Now I started with; is humanoid, wearing halfplate and the guards colours for the city, bearing standard guards weapons for this city and wants to have fun, eat and sleep when their guard shift ends soon. See how these random rolls fill in the details! (I have charts for human appearance, Tiefling appearance, etc.) anyways if the ‘charming’ pansexual bard was female she wouldn’t even get a roll with the version 1 of the city guard, however the DC to persuade the version 2 guard into bed is very low the DC would go up if they mention; long term relationships and/or children.
In conclusion I highly recommend random charts and determining these key details as soon as the players seem keen on potential seduction.
Great video thanks.
This checks out except for the double concentration (enhance ability + guidance), which someone mentioned earlier, and the cutting words.
As DM I'd rule that you can't cutting words someone you're trying to persuade. In this scenario, being antagonistic to someone you're trying to persuade (and not deceive) would impose disadvantage on your roll or advantage on the NPC's opposing roll.
Minor factors I disagree with. The rest of it totes works.
You can't use bend luck on your own rolls, and how are you using a reaction for it and cutting words in the same round? And how are you concentrating on guidance and enhance ability at the same time?
Clearly they are in error, but it is easily overcome. You just need a sorcerer wingman.
If a player min/max's like this, they will be a very sad panda in my game. I avoid these issues during sessions zero though
to be fair with a high wisdom and charisma with a solid hp score from your 7d10 from fighter and extra attack they could potentially be fairly rounded but just be really good at their gimmick. Its not like they can ONLY do that and everything else is just garbage right? charisma for bard spells, fighter/ paladin for 2 fighting styles and heavy armor + any weapon they want. and its not like you can just completely ignore any and all persuasion checks and if you do you are a shit dm lol
That mask looks like the Owlbear from the Dragonstrike boardgame' VHS movie.
Bend luck can only affect other creatures, as explained in the spell. So you could only use it to lower someones insight check against you
FYI changlings can alter there voice as well as there appearance... so they dont really need the kenku at all.
I'll do you one (well actually 18) better, making the absolute total 73.
Have a high level bard use telepathy on the player doing the check.
Using bardic inspiration gives another D12.
And the pièce de resistance the historian feat - using telepathy the bard is able to make take the help action giving advantage and the historian feat to add their own proficiency bonus to the roll as well.
And if you want to go really nuts just add any number of Tomes of understanding and/or leadership.
What about Bardic Inspiration? That's potentially another 1d10
Lore Bard 15 peerless skill and expertise 1d12 + (double profeciency)
take guidance cantrip as feat or magical secrets
Devotion Paladin +5 bonus (does not stack with others)
Draconic Sorcerer 1 x2 persuasion on dragons
base is ((6*2)*2)Proficiency/Expertise/Draconian ancestry+5(devotion)+1d12(peerless skill)+1d4(guidance)+5(charisma mod)
24+5+5+1d12+1d4
34+(2-16)
Minimum +36 Maximum +50
D20 roll is 1-20 so min is 37 and max is 70 vs dragons
But wait there's more, take 3 ioun stones of mastery and 2 books of of charisma making max stat 24 with a +7 modifier and proffiency of a +9 instead of a +6:
so 36+5+7+1d12+1d4
1d20+48+(2-16)
Min is 51 max is 84 with an average of 67.5
Peerless skill takes no action so you can cutting words as a reaction.
So that means we can counter check
Without magic its 37-70 with a minus 1-12 on the DC
and with magic items its 51-84 with a minus 1-12 on the DC
that is if you have the magic items and roll perfect you can have an effective ****96 Charisma Check*****
THE DICE HAVE SPOKEN
THE DND GODS HAVE DEEMED THAT YOU HAVE BEEN BLESSED WITH THIS UNFORSEEN POWER
Holy crap that mask freaked me out.
Rawr! Ted's a scary monster.
Nerdarchist Dave
D&D 5e does have a general lack of social rules compared to the other parts of the game, but heavens take a gander at Palladium some time. A high mental affinity attribute gives the character a percentage which is called "bonus to trust/intimidate." In the forty year history of the company, not a one of its games has ever explained how to use this stat. Is it a bonus added to skill rolls? Is it a target number for its own roll? It's up to the GM to house rule the matter, and most ignore the stat altogether.
Last campaign I played in we got to past 15th level.. Our goliath barbarian and he had a huge persuasion check cause he got expertise from deck of many things
Starting a campaign soon playing a Kalashtar Eloquence Bard that will eventually multi to Fey Wanderer Ranger & get the actor Feat & tepathically incept thoughts into people heads in their voice using Deception skill.
going draconic ancestry you can DOUBLE your proficiency bonus on charisma based checks on dragons
you will have a base +22 to persuasion with this build without using any active abilities,
that is technically better than the rogues never rolling below a 27 with reliable talent on average.
not to mention you still have all those magic items for adding dice to ability checks
I'm rarely disappointed by your videos, but I must say....I was VERY disappointed that Ted didn't do the entire episode as dude dragon.
infernal calling spell makes the demon do a contest roll against your charisma check vs their insight!
You won't get your ASI's until you're level 4 in those classes. Assuming you're sticking with Standard Array, that means you can put a 15 in Cha and a 13 in Wis with Human Variant for 16 Cha and 14 Wis (I'd put the other 14 in Con). So with Level 3 Bard, you're going to get, at best, 3 + 4 + 2 (1d4) = 9. You then switch to Fighter for level 7 Samurai. You got at least 1 ASI now, so I'll assume you put it into 18 Cha. Now you're looking at 4 + 8 + 2 + 2 (1d4) = 16. Add another level 3 with the Redemption Paladin at level 13 to bump that up to 4 + 10 + 2 + 2 (1d4) + 5 = 23. With the level 6 Sorcerer for Wild Mage at level 19, you can finally get your second ASI and let's say you put it into Cha again for 20. Now, you roll 5 + 12 + 2 + 2 (1d4) + 5 + 2 (1d4) = 29 at Advantage. You can crank it up to 30 if you put your last level to go into Bard Level 4 to get one last ASI. So, 30 + 20 = 50. At best, you're looking at 34 assuming you roll max on both 1d4s.
I want to how how you're getting to 55. Did I miss something?
Edit: Bend Luck from the Sorcerer only works on another creature (RAW). So, you'd have to drop that 1d4 on yourself.