Extra info: 1. "But locked diffs split torque" - no, no they don't. An open diff always splits torque 50 50. Locked diffs can go to 100% on a wheel. Think about a 4x4 that's twin locked, climbing a steep hill, diagonal wheels in the air...pretty much the lower rear wheel is doing all the work. 2. TCS is a generic term meaning Traction Control System. Each manufacturer has their own definition of what it includes. Brake TCS is definitely not the same as ESC. 3. Would tyres make a difference? Not really, no. You can see my Ranger also runs out of alex flex and that has good, new, all-terrains on it. The Shark gets cross-axled, diagonal wheels in the air/little grip. At that point you could have muddies aired down to 10psi and it'd still spin wheels, albeit a bit less. The problem here is not grip of the tyres, it is distributing torque to the wheels that need it. Yes, good tyres make a difference offroad, but it's not what is being tested here. In the second cross-axle situation when the rear left is in the ditch that's where tyres would make more of a difference, but again it's still not the root cause. 4. Cross-axle lockers - yes, they would help, but the fundamental problem is front/rear torque distribution.
ruclips.net/video/G-t4uRA75BI/видео.htmlsi=MQj5X2B14DrvdNro&t=596 In this video, it seems the truck passing a similar ditch more easily. Is there any difference between the two trucks?
@@L2SFBC Think he means sandy munro.. a yankee car teardown guy. His company rips apart teslas and other cars and explains how they all work etc.. A good channel too.
Thanks robert. Good analytical video with objective comparisons too. No bullshit, fluff or annoying music. -good stuff. One thing i would like explained, about hybrids is about the power of these vehicles. They seem to defy physics, either that or their stated max power output is not available 100% of the time. I dont hear this fact mentioned but surely it would be significant to many buyers if the max power (or even half of it) is not always available or drops of suddenly at some point, esp while towing a trailer uphill when you most need it. I mean as i understand it the petrol engine is 135kw, mostly acting as a generator for the power of the front and rear electric motors but able to kick in and physically connect to the front axle when needed. The battery can additionally supply the power for the front and rear electric motors. So when you're using a lot of power towing a trailer uphill or just generally thrashing the ute in the sand etc and deplete the battery power, how do you then get 320kw of thrust (electrical/mechanical or both) power from a 135kw engine? or can you? does the 320kw of power suddenly drop off at some point untill the battery power is restored? Sorry probably havnt explained that very well. Just seems funny how with a relatively small battery that can be depleted easily, a 135kw engine can somehow provide the 320kw of power, esp when you consider generation and power transmission losses etc. Is this 320kw of output always available or does it kind of tell you that only lower power output will be available soon because youre getting low on electrical power. Also, if the ICE engine is physically powering the front diff at least some of that power is not available to provide the watts that should be charging up the battery. In an ICE car, if it states that its a 320kw car, that 320kw is theoretically available 100percent of the time if you were not concerned about the consequences of hammering it at full throttle.
Good question. The max power is 320kW / 650Nm, the combined total of the front and rear motors. I think your point is whether the ICE engine can constantly generate enough energy to keep the electric motors operating at that level, without also depleting the battery? This is a question I have too, but in practice I don't think it'll be a problem as how often do you drive any car flat-out, demanding maximum power and torque? Only for a few seconds generally. The car has a big battery and you also can't take max power/torque figures from an ICE and translate them into energy requirements for electric motors. ICE cars may be able to deliver 320kW say, but are always computer-limited to delivering less to save the transmission.
@@L2SFBC thanks for your reply Robert. I understand that Max power is not used all the time but I was exaggerating the scenario to the max explain the point. Even in a less extreme example it kinda just doesn't seem right though. I'm guessing I'm probably wrong because I never hear of anyone complaining about such problems. But If the shark can go about 80 km on a smooth road on purely electrical power well that's probably 40 km in sand towing a camper maybe, so that's like going onto a beach doing 20 km then turning around and coming back assuming using electric only. Ok that's not realistic, you wouldn't do that but even with the addition of the ICE engine you are going to be depleting that battery pretty fast I would imagine, then in that scenario you then get back on the highway and drive into a headwind at 110kmh with your camper in tow, having to floor it to pass the odd road train before the next town 300 km up the road.. not an unrealistic scenario I think. Somehow it just doesn't seem likely this system would maintain enough power over the expected range while that little motor is generating its butt off trying to provide enough juice to the 320 kW electric motors. I mean it the shark has an estimated range of 800 km using ICE plus battery power but only 80km on pure electric you'd think the battery reserves would be depleted pretty fast even if they weren't being used at anywhere near the absolute maximum. Why do some of these companies even bother with the 'mild' hybrid systems that don't seems to help economy or power that much if this is the case? You'd think they'd all go for a puny engine and huge power and Ok economy like the shark rather than bigger engine and mild benefits like the hilux and tank hybrid etc. Anyway, thanks again for the vids. Keep them coming. I'm sure we'll soon hear about it if any of the shark owners start getting limited down to sardine power levels during long taxing road trips.
Yes...good questions. We can theorise. What I want to do is put a decent trailer behind it and go for a sand drive. That'll tell us the answers. Then, slog up and down High Country hills. I know Rangers can do it, can the Shark?
Real offroad, sand dunes where a usual low range is needed, will be interesting how this performs particularly when the batt could be low due to tiny engine using all its power like Simpson Desert and not much to regen the batt. Real world fully loaded testing absolutely needs to be done with such a new platform. Thanks for an objective test Robert and not the 'brand gushing' from most others.
Thank you, and yes this is the sort of test we need to do, load it up, and slog through dunes for a couple of hours. Can the generator keep up? Will anything overheat? This is what needs to be known before I can recommend people replace their diesel utes with it. Same thing for slogging up/down Vic High Country mountains.
@@L2SFBC From experience with an Outlander PHEV for full performance you never let the drive battery get below 25% if facing long hills or hard driving. Even though it maintains a buffer for "pure hybrid" use and is never fully depleted normally it won't be able to provide as much current as a higher state of charge (to protect the battery), so the ICE generator has to do the most work, therefore, less total power.
Will be getting one of these next year in New Zealand. Could not give a rats about off road ability. Like most kiwis who roll around in a ute, the closest it will be getting to gravel will be the sand pit at my son's daycare. 😆
About the acceleration test, Bao 5 has 3 OTA since it launched last year, in eco/normal mode, both front and rear motors are driving until the speed reach 40km/h, then its FWD, thats the first software that came with Bao5. Then they made it only drive the front motor unless you hit you accelerator to hard, but the rear motor kick-in was too slow, a lot of users complained about this, this is the 2nd OTA, it looks like your testing with normal mode. In the third OTA, still fwd when you start, but the rear motor kick-in response is now very good now, no more horrible torque steer like the 2nd OTA. So I think since the Shark is still a prototype, it will fix that normal mode
Will be interesting to see how well it does hill descents and whether it has HDC or really strong regen. Very impressive content and analysis as usual!
Absolutely superb analysis. For my own city driving, I want to get what is called Suzuki Grand Vitata mild hybrid AWD variant (Suzuki's AllGrip Select) in my country. From your video, it's like a parallel hybrid that's FWD-biased but with a drive shaft that will power the rear wheels as well if it detects slip. The hybrid system there acts like a mileage enhancer - 800+ km on 45 litre petrol tank. Very little power, but I am a slow driver so I am cool with that. One can cruise at 120 kmph in it. What I also like in it is the great suspension for where I live. They AWD has a lockable center diff as well under certain conditions. They also have a FWD strong hybrid variant here that has been frequently tested to deliver 1200+ km on a 45-litre petrol tank, and has an EV mode that kicks in when the speeds are low, like in crawling traffic. But, that one doesn't come with that AWD system that I want over here.
Thank you, more to come. AllGrip Select is an on-demand system, FWD then brings in rears as you say. Happily, it also has a lock mode to ensure the front and rear axles spin at the same speeds, solving the problem you see with the Shark. This is easy with AllGrip as it has a mechanical linkage, whereas with the Shark it has a software powertrain and that is much harder.
@@L2SFBC I have to appreciate the technical videos you make. Thank you so much for that. Numbers and measures are a much better way to evaluate, and you seem to know your stuff.
@@L2SFBC After watching about 10 other media outlets do the same tests, same utes, same location nearly all of them stated that these are pre production vehicles that have been used for evaluating Aussie conditions and will more that likley have different software specs when sales start.
Comprehensive Thank you Given the torque benefits from electric motors, I'm somewhat disappointed with how it's performed Hopefully the engineers can figure things out 🤔
Great to see that you have called them out for how they have setup the launch model. The fact they haven’t fitted lockers is annoying. They did on the leopard 5 suv but not the shark…… why.
So far the only person i have seen test the off road ability properly. I actually seen someone at that same press event go "it has loads of flex" as he went over that cross axle section wheels in the air XD. I have been worried about its poor implementation of traction control since seeing one of their vehicles struggle over a metal ramp at their own event. Good news its easy enough to fix with software. But will they?
Loads of flex? No! It has a reasonable amount of flex. "Loads" is what a Rubicon can do with its disconnect. What you saw was not a complete offroad test, but it was the best I could do at the location and with the available time. More to come.
@L2SFBC I completely agree. I'm not criticising the lack of flex. I'm criticising the majority of "motor journalists" that just drink up the cool aid and say such things as "it has loads of flex." Very refreshing to see some one such as yourself actually testing thing properly. 👌
@@L2SFBC absolutely there are disadvantages. That's why most modern 4wds are IFS. I'm keen to see the built in advantages of the onboard power system for camping. It's obviously not a rock crawler, but so many people think that's what they need when it will never get used. My comment was meant to be tongue in cheek.
This is by far the most comprehensive and technically sound review i have seen. Just curious to know what happens to total power and torque in byd shark once battery is down to 25% and engine is used to charge the battery as well as drive the wheels. Does the total power drop or remain the same? Thnx
@ many thnx. When u test the shark pl also check if it is able to maintain power and torque going up a long hill after battery is down to 25% and engine is on. Practically speaking battery will retain charge for first 80km and thereafter once its down to 25% the real test begins when engine turns on to drive wheels and charge the battery. It remains to be seen if car is able to retain the same power and torque figures with this small engine both on flat road and long inclines.
Software would go a long way yes. It's immensely difficult to program a replacement for diffs/powertrains, and carmakers are proving this every time I look at EVs. The *potential* is there to be better than a mechanical powertrain, but if the software isn't up to it, then the result will be worse.
A technical analysis from a 4x4 experts, 🎉Robert, what else they need to improve in order to tow up to 3.5 tons. I don’t need it much on hardcore off-road but capable to tow 3.5 tons of caravan on Dirt road.
The utes been on sale in Mexico for a while now. Everyone mentions the engine only couples itself to the generator. The total HP power output is electric motor output, if the Atkinson motor was coupling to the drive train it would be more than the total 450 HP.
only above 70km/h, similar to Sealion6. Remember it is single gear, so having the engine coupled to drive train at low speeds will be very inefficient.
I think most journalists don’t have the engineering background to understand how this system works. I have watched many reviews and have seen many journalists not understanding how the engine actually couples directly with the front axle above 70kph. Robert explains it a lot better than most.
Thanks for the detailed review. Thanks for clarifying that's its a pre production vehicle as well. One question. 1.would this be able to do river crossings? Would anything happen to the batteries?
After watching about 10 other media outlets do the same tests with the same utes at the same location you were the only one who managed to make the Shark stumble over that exact same bias axle rut. How is this so? As you said "Sand" mode worked well. If I take my 80 series out and just drive it off road and don't lock it up, it will get stuck at some point. Is that a problem with my vehicle or a problem with my choices? Maybe BYD need to educate drivers on the modes and when they should use them. I'm sure when you did it in your Ranger you had it optimized for that condition. Also nearly all the other reviewers stated that these are pre production vehicles that have been used for evaluating Aussie conditions and will more that likley have different software specs when sales start. Did you not get that memo?
I clearly stated in the video these were pre production cars multiple times and with captions. I tried all the modes to see which worked best. You can see the results. I would not have guessed sand mode would work best. The Ranger has no modes to optimise. It is an old PX. The one optimisation I could have done was use the rear locker but I didn't as that would have been a pointless comparison. It would have crawled that in 2WD rear locked. At the end you can see a proper drive of the obstacle. The idea is to test the traction systems which requires a slow speed drive. Momentum fixes everything. Offroad you may well be in a situation where you need to start from a cross axle situation.
looked like you drove faster with your ranger than the byd in that same spot. try same speed and not stoping next time because it looked like you not only drove slower but also stop for a sec with the byd. 21:05
How about its towing capability? Appreciate claimed weight limit etc but it would be great to see it towing fully loaded over hills and how this impacts the EV range and then the subsequent fuel economy when the battery runs out
These are all very valid points with one exception: The ute had pure road tires on it. So how it would behave with proper Terrain tires is an unknown. At work I drove extensively in very rough Terrains of all kinds with Rangers/Hiluxes/D-Maxes etc. I have had a couple delivered from work that still had their "normal" tires on them and all then failed to deal with conditions as seen here.
No, that's not right. The Shark gets cross-axled, diagonal wheels in the air/little grip. At that point you could have muddies aired down to 10psi and it'd still spin wheels, albeit a bit less. You see with my Ranger that has good all-terrains on it that it also spins when cross-axled. The problem here is not grip of the tyres, it is distributing torque to the wheels that need it. Yes, good tyres make a difference offroad, but it's not what is being tested here. In the second cross-axle situation when the rear left is in the ditch that's where tyres would make more of a difference, but again it's still not the root cause.
It needs a tweak in the programme & some software upgrades. May be the data gathering and statistics didn't match for actual use. Anyhow, been waiting for this system for decades.
@19:34 I beg to differ. not staying in one set model can cause "automation mode confusion" which is a big thing. I prefer "dumb automatic" systems which do not override operator input.
So what sort is hybrid is the RAV4 where the ICE can only drive the front wheel and electric can drive the front and the rear. But the rear can’t be driven by the ICE at all? Appears similar to the Shark and yet is different as the ICE isn’t restricted to use over 70km/h.
Parallel. Whether it is FWD, RWD or AWD makes no difference. RAV4s have a conventional ICE, gearbox and torque convertor. Yes, the rear is electric only, but the front is not, so it's parallel. But yes, arguably series-parallel!
@@L2SFBCBy the looks of it the Front motor might be more powerful than the rear (this config is the other way round for example in an AWD Tesla with the front motor being the less powerful one); as well as a Front Bias. That diagonal test was abysmal. My Discovery Sport only allows ⅛ wheel rotation before brake TCS is activated making it ridiculously capable. We have to remember this is a prototype and final configurations & tweaking aren’t complete.
Yes, well, Land Rover are the best at offroad electronics. I would have liked to have a Land Rover handy to demonstrate the difference. BYD does have a way to go and as you say it's a pre-production car.
Interesting analysis. I have the new gen Outlander PHEV, which has a similar drive-train set-up. However, it DEFINITELY has a rear-wheel power bias, especially on acceleration, and a more mature AWD system. It lacks the off-road staples like clearance, protection, tyres etc - but for a soft-roader it's surprisingly capable due to all that low speed torque available and smooth power delivery, especially on sandy tracks and the like common around WA when camping etc. I think BYD has used the same drive-train from their Seal 6 (which is pretty much an Outlander PHEV copy in principle) so I'm interested to see how they have adapted it and whether the absence of a geared low-range will be missed or not.
I have great respect for Mitsubishi's powertrains in their 4x4s and my tests of Evos. BYD doesn't seem to have that pedigree. I drove a Sealion AWD and found it to be feel front-drive biased too. I'm going to look at whether EVs need low range...is the "oh but it develops max torque off idle so no need for low range" mantra actually true? A few calculations make for interesting conclusions...
You sure the byd system is a copy of Misubishi one considering the BYD system is far more efficent, powerful and sophisticated. And the byd pHEv solution was date back in 2008 and the AWD solution was from 2016. Around the time first geen out lander come about.
The BYD DM systems are not a copy of Mitsubishi, but they have similar principles. At least they are not very old fashioned PHEV tech, like the Ranger PHEV will be.
@@vasil7410 Don't have to get defensive of BYD people. I'm merely pointing out the Outlander has been developed in wider markets for longer and that the hybrid drive-trains are more comparable than most, hence my interest. It's not a competition 🙂
The diff lock on byd discrption is correct. You do split the torque 50/50 when both half can take the toqure. You just have solid axle. You cant make the traction wheel spin, none traction well not spin with diff lock regardless the type. Another correction, brake TCS and stability control are the same thing. They uses the same control model and actuation system. The stability control can achived brake TCS if the control module capable of such.
No, an open diff always splits torque 50 50. Locked diff can go to 100 on a wheel. TCS is a generic term meaning Traction Control System. Each manufacturer has their own definition of what it includes. Brake TCS is definitely not the same as ESC, as ESC is an umbrella term which incorporates TCS, if TCS is defined as engine and brake traction control.
@@L2SFBC : I am confused. Open diff, left wheel has no grip and spin like crazy while right wheel - which may have some grip - don't spin at all. Vehicule stuck. How is that 50/50? Is it a terminology gotcha? Thanks.
Switch to EV mode for crossing you think? Will this negate the need for a snorkel for under wadding depth crossings? No more anxiety for non sorkel applications? Drive for 5-10 minutes before reactivating HEV and all should be good - in this theory then the airbox should have a drain hole to let excess escape or do you think a snorkel option will come to keep the tradition?
@@L2SFBC would have to turn on EV MAX MODE to prevent accidents foot down click and activate HEV I think, just to be 100% sure the car won’t self activate HEV thinking it wants power from driver input - unless BYD have made a specific mode for this.
@@L2SFBC tks for the feedback, specifically I'd like to address the range anxiety. Short question_BYD Shark low battery, Full gas tank, want to get home, What Drive Mode/Modes can I use in this situation? NB:I live in the Caribbean & BYD has launched a branch in my country, but we ain't gonna have Charging stations for a Decade or 2... but I'm cool with home charging, ( I live on a small island, WON'T be driving Far... can't really) so I think the BYD Shark6 could be excellent, once I know it can Operate, MOVE, with an Input of gas if the battery is low.
Why the complexity for the 4x4 modes? Isn't as simple as send power to the wheels that are turning at a speed closest to the average speed of the vehicle? I appreciate determining the instantaneous speed of the vehicle and supplying the required torque to each wheel is complex but the choices presented to the driver are over the top or marketing hype?
There was a time when Adaptive Terrain Systems were great, but now electronics are so adaptable I query the need for them. The Grenadier does just fine without for example, albeit its BTC is poor, but that's not a adaptive terrain problem.
Great video! I own both a Tesla and a V8 76 series Land Cruiser, so I'm definitely open to different powertrains. I was hoping 4wd hybrids would offer the best of both worlds: plenty of torque for towing and a petrol engine for those inland trips where charging isn't an option. But, if I'm understanding this correctly, the issue is that when towing or maybe normal driving, you can still run out of battery and can't rely solely on the motor if it only kicks in to drive the wheels at speeds over 70 km/h. That seems like a big limitation. I know we don’t have much real-world data yet, but the BYD Shark is supposed to get 7.5L/100km in hybrid mode, and the new Prado is around 7.9L/100km. So, I’m wondering: why go hybrid if the fuel efficiency is nearly the same as a full internal combustion engine? Unless you’re doing city driving on electric (which i will admit there is not really a lot of options if you wanted an electric ute) it doesn’t seem like a great option for 4wd camping and beach runs unless you have reliable power access. And i thought these duel cabs major market was families who want to go away and tow their caravan.
Not really, no - the ICE acts as a generator, in the same way a diesel-electric train works. It's not a case of exhausting the battery then switching to petrol. The petrol engine is almost constantly charging the battery, or generating electricity for the motors, unless the vehicle is in EV-mode in which case it does nothing. The computers cleverly mix all the power sources for best effect. The 7.5L figure is only when the battery is depleted to its minimum. When it has 'sufficient' SoC it's 2L/100km. There are definitely use cases for a PHEV, and if this one is affordable, then it can save you money if your needs meet what it can do. Also, you have a HUGE battery which can be used for purposes other than propelling the car, so another reason to use it. I think PHEV utes, and this one in particular, are an exciting new option once everyone understands their capability.
Considering they say they have been testing here for some time, it obviously has not been off road - thats disappointing. Heres hoping they tweak via software updates, wouldn't take much.
Even as a pre-prod vehicle - considering they have completely separate control of front and rear axles, that calibration is terrible. Looks like they'll do a Tesla and releasing in effectively beta stage, and let customers iron out the bugs...
Brake traction control really just seems like a lazy and cheap way to have limited slip differentials. However, if these two systems work combined, it could be very effective.
BTC is better than an LSD in some ways as it can be more effective and there is no negative effect when it's not working. A really good combination is a torque-biasing cross-axle diff plus BTC. For track cars, I like Torsens, Quaifes or similar, open diffs...not so much.
@@L2SFBCan LSD can transfer more torque to the dri ing wheel. With brake traction control the diff is acting as a gearbox so you get double the wheel speed with half the torque to the drive wheel. I think a better solution would be a diff with a clutch that can be engaged.
It’s a fully electric car and the controls are very different from mechanical ICE cars. Why would you NOT use the mountain mode when clearly you are driving on a mountainous terrain? And then turn around to make that misuse look like a smart move😅 And as some one else pointed out, let 5-10psi off the tires and use the same tires if you were to compare two vehicles side by side. Otherwise, the results are not conclusive at best.
No, there is an Eco mode which is your maximum economy mode, not Normal. As for Mountain mode...it's a test, so I tried all possibly relevant modes. This included Mountain, but not Eco. Turns out, Sand worked best which is not what I would have expected. This is why all the offroad modes need to be tested. As for the side by side test - reducing tyre pressure is pointless for this test, the objective is to test the traction systems. The Ranger did have all-terrains as I pointed out, but once the vehicle is balancing on two diagonal wheels...the tyre tread is of less importance than the ability of the vehicle to distribute torque left and right which is what a good traction system should do.
@@L2SFBC Mind you, I didn’t say normal mode is the most economic mode. I said it was optimized for economy and urban condition and thus a vastly different algorithm. And sand mode yields similar result as mountain mode. And it’s not optimized for fuel economy. (you also said all modes should get a test drive yet the eco mode was not tested?) Anyway you missed my point. An electric differential lock is very much an algorithm, different from mechanical ones. What you are doing to “test” out the hybrid UTE is not conclusive at best. A semi-rigorous test needs to have some kind of standards and procedures.
I said all relevant modes. Eco isn't relevant for that test but Normal is as many 4x4s operate quite well in their Normal modes, and owners only switch in tougher terrain. Yes an electronic locker is an algorithm. The SHARK has a conventional axle diff so it would benefit from a locker. What it needs is better front and rear torque distribution which is as you say software and hopefully will be improved with an update.
The nice thing with these BYDs and much of the EVs is that they can just update software over the air and these problems can be solved without having to buy a new car 😂
I don’t think so, as all BYD “off-road” SUVs in China are equipped with physical front/rear locks, a simulated center diff lock and a physical low-gear at the rear axle only.
BYD doesn't have good traction control behaviour. I have an Atto3 and when a wheel slips it cuts the power and takes too long to increase the power. Other EVs I have tried (Tesla, Volvo, MG4) are so smooth on the traction control you don't feel it.
Quad motors represent even more of a challenge for software programmers as they now have to figure out left/right wheels speeds and torque distribution, not just front/rear. The potential is good, but only if the programming is up to the mark. If not, the result is a vehicle inferior to a conventional drivetrain and potentially even dangerours. See my video on IWD for more.
@@L2SFBC As a person with 34 years software engineering experience across all sorts of industries including automotive, I strongly disagree. It is the most trivial exercise to emulate a triple locked diff setup. You're matching RPM at all corners limited to torque of highest traction wheel by the throttle input. Child's play. Clearly this drive mode would need to be special and isn't suitable for on road conditions unless the goal is 4 wheel helis.
I agree with simple triple-locked, but I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the challenge of effective IWD across many different terrains. There it is much more of a challenge than simply monitoring four wheel speeds and increasing/decreasing torque when a threshold is exceeded. IWD should be able to do better than a triple-locked system, for example torque-bias front or rear as required, and left or right in response to driver input and also conditions varying from high to low speed, low and high mu, load on wheels and more. I think that's a complex task, you don't?
@@L2SFBC yes, but not off road, a bit of scrub is okay off road, be it sand, mud, whatever. The beauty of triple lock is that the torque moves around automatically and the low grip wheels are maximised by keeping the slip angle low or at driver request at least consistent. Triple locked will excell in sand, mud, rock climbing equally. The only reason you might NOT engage them all aside from convenience is potential for breakage. When that is no longer a concern why not run that mode constantly. Keep in mind that the software can do your ackerman speed differences for you automatically as it knows where the steering wheel is, so even that's not at all a concern. On pavement there would be no scrub, but you could for eg spin all 4 wildly and lose control, so not ideal for your average idiot.
No triple locked is not the answer in all offroad conditons. For example in sand it will generate additional drag needlessly, you'd want the torque/wheel speed of each wheel to exactly match the arc, and also pivot the car via torque vectoring. Drive around triple-locked and you'll end up stuck....unless I've misunderstood you? You mean starting triple-locked as a base, and then change as required according to steering angle etc? That would make sense, but I feel some field testing would be needed, and you'd want to torque-steer the car too. Also, I don't want a situation where a rear-locked car loses traction on the back axle and pivots, I want the front to pull through like a locked front, open rear. Then we come to hills....
This vehicle has the articulation of a frying pan. Literally no up travel on either axle in the videos when crossing the ditch at a diagonal. Let's just hope the traction control system is still in the "pre-production" phase and will be improved before production starts.
It's not great, but workable enough. The suspension tune needs work, that's coming in the next video. It's either not locally tuned, or not tuned well.
We had a short on-road section, maybe 10km all up. Time was limited, as is always the case. Often some journos don't even use all the little time they have available.
@@L2SFBC oh right! Interesting! Thanks for filling me in... I just wondered why all the channels I've seen review it didn't seem to have any on road footage... At least not that I've seen yet... So now I understand
Extra info:
1. "But locked diffs split torque" - no, no they don't. An open diff always splits torque 50 50. Locked diffs can go to 100% on a wheel. Think about a 4x4 that's twin locked, climbing a steep hill, diagonal wheels in the air...pretty much the lower rear wheel is doing all the work.
2. TCS is a generic term meaning Traction Control System. Each manufacturer has their own definition of what it includes. Brake TCS is definitely not the same as ESC.
3. Would tyres make a difference? Not really, no. You can see my Ranger also runs out of alex flex and that has good, new, all-terrains on it. The Shark gets cross-axled, diagonal wheels in the air/little grip. At that point you could have muddies aired down to 10psi and it'd still spin wheels, albeit a bit less. The problem here is not grip of the tyres, it is distributing torque to the wheels that need it. Yes, good tyres make a difference offroad, but it's not what is being tested here. In the second cross-axle situation when the rear left is in the ditch that's where tyres would make more of a difference, but again it's still not the root cause.
4. Cross-axle lockers - yes, they would help, but the fundamental problem is front/rear torque distribution.
ruclips.net/video/G-t4uRA75BI/видео.htmlsi=MQj5X2B14DrvdNro&t=596 In this video, it seems the truck passing a similar ditch more easily. Is there any difference between the two trucks?
It's 50% of total vehicle power, there's no mechanical linkage to send power from front axle to rear axle or vice versa.
Good job!
Excellent video, can we ask BYD for a response.
Very interesting and informative. So much useful information despite only having the car for two hours. Well done!
Glad it was helpful!
This channel is better than munros
No simping , simply knowledge based
Thanks...who is munros?
@@L2SFBC munro live on RUclips
youtube.com/@munrolive
@@L2SFBC Think he means sandy munro.. a yankee car teardown guy. His company rips apart teslas and other cars and explains how they all work etc.. A good channel too.
The most informative videos so far on BYD Shark!
Quality work Robert, thumbs up.
The articulation on this rig is incredible!
Thanks robert. Good analytical video with objective comparisons too. No bullshit, fluff or annoying music. -good stuff.
One thing i would like explained, about hybrids is about the power of these vehicles.
They seem to defy physics, either that or their stated max power output is not available 100% of the time. I dont hear this fact mentioned but surely it would be significant to many buyers if the max power (or even half of it) is not always available or drops of suddenly at some point, esp while towing a trailer uphill when you most need it.
I mean as i understand it the petrol engine is 135kw, mostly acting as a generator for the power of the front and rear electric motors but able to kick in and physically connect to the front axle when needed. The battery can additionally supply the power for the front and rear electric motors.
So when you're using a lot of power towing a trailer uphill or just generally thrashing the ute in the sand etc and deplete the battery power, how do you then get 320kw of thrust (electrical/mechanical or both) power from a 135kw engine? or can you? does the 320kw of power suddenly drop off at some point untill the battery power is restored?
Sorry probably havnt explained that very well. Just seems funny how with a relatively small battery that can be depleted easily, a 135kw engine can somehow provide the 320kw of power, esp when you consider generation and power transmission losses etc. Is this 320kw of output always available or does it kind of tell you that only lower power output will be available soon because youre getting low on electrical power.
Also, if the ICE engine is physically powering the front diff at least some of that power is not available to provide the watts that should be charging up the battery.
In an ICE car, if it states that its a 320kw car, that 320kw is theoretically available 100percent of the time if you were not concerned about the consequences of hammering it at full throttle.
Good question. The max power is 320kW / 650Nm, the combined total of the front and rear motors. I think your point is whether the ICE engine can constantly generate enough energy to keep the electric motors operating at that level, without also depleting the battery? This is a question I have too, but in practice I don't think it'll be a problem as how often do you drive any car flat-out, demanding maximum power and torque? Only for a few seconds generally. The car has a big battery and you also can't take max power/torque figures from an ICE and translate them into energy requirements for electric motors. ICE cars may be able to deliver 320kW say, but are always computer-limited to delivering less to save the transmission.
@@L2SFBC thanks for your reply Robert.
I understand that Max power is not used all the time but I was exaggerating the scenario to the max explain the point. Even in a less extreme example it kinda just doesn't seem right though. I'm guessing I'm probably wrong because I never hear of anyone complaining about such problems.
But If the shark can go about 80 km on a smooth road on purely electrical power well that's probably 40 km in sand towing a camper maybe, so that's like going onto a beach doing 20 km then turning around and coming back assuming using electric only. Ok that's not realistic, you wouldn't do that but even with the addition of the ICE engine you are going to be depleting that battery pretty fast I would imagine, then in that scenario you then get back on the highway and drive into a headwind at 110kmh with your camper in tow, having to floor it to pass the odd road train before the next town 300 km up the road.. not an unrealistic scenario I think. Somehow it just doesn't seem likely this system would maintain enough power over the expected range while that little motor is generating its butt off trying to provide enough juice to the 320 kW electric motors.
I mean it the shark has an estimated range of 800 km using ICE plus battery power but only 80km on pure electric you'd think the battery reserves would be depleted pretty fast even if they weren't being used at anywhere near the absolute maximum.
Why do some of these companies even bother with the 'mild' hybrid systems that don't seems to help economy or power that much if this is the case? You'd think they'd all go for a puny engine and huge power and Ok economy like the shark rather than bigger engine and mild benefits like the hilux and tank hybrid etc.
Anyway, thanks again for the vids. Keep them coming. I'm sure we'll soon hear about it if any of the shark owners start getting limited down to sardine power levels during long taxing road trips.
Yes...good questions. We can theorise. What I want to do is put a decent trailer behind it and go for a sand drive. That'll tell us the answers. Then, slog up and down High Country hills. I know Rangers can do it, can the Shark?
Real offroad, sand dunes where a usual low range is needed, will be interesting how this performs particularly when the batt could be low due to tiny engine using all its power like Simpson Desert and not much to regen the batt. Real world fully loaded testing absolutely needs to be done with such a new platform. Thanks for an objective test Robert and not the 'brand gushing' from most others.
Thank you, and yes this is the sort of test we need to do, load it up, and slog through dunes for a couple of hours. Can the generator keep up? Will anything overheat? This is what needs to be known before I can recommend people replace their diesel utes with it. Same thing for slogging up/down Vic High Country mountains.
@@L2SFBC From experience with an Outlander PHEV for full performance you never let the drive battery get below 25% if facing long hills or hard driving. Even though it maintains a buffer for "pure hybrid" use and is never fully depleted normally it won't be able to provide as much current as a higher state of charge (to protect the battery), so the ICE generator has to do the most work, therefore, less total power.
Let another 5-10psi out of the tyres…
Will be getting one of these next year in New Zealand. Could not give a rats about off road ability. Like most kiwis who roll around in a ute, the closest it will be getting to gravel will be the sand pit at my son's daycare. 😆
Will be a great ute for you then!
@@L2SFBC Yes it will be ideal. :)
That’s the problem. Too many people driving around in utes that don’t actually need them.
@@rippedup1931those same people bagging out this Ute “pff can’t even tow 3.5t” mean while the tow ball they have is still brand new
Thanks
Thank you so much, first Super Thanks on this one!
About the acceleration test, Bao 5 has 3 OTA since it launched last year, in eco/normal mode, both front and rear motors are driving until the speed reach 40km/h, then its FWD, thats the first software that came with Bao5. Then they made it only drive the front motor unless you hit you accelerator to hard, but the rear motor kick-in was too slow, a lot of users complained about this, this is the 2nd OTA, it looks like your testing with normal mode. In the third OTA, still fwd when you start, but the rear motor kick-in response is now very good now, no more horrible torque steer like the 2nd OTA.
So I think since the Shark is still a prototype, it will fix that normal mode
Agreed, thank you
geez mate.. get more than you bargained for watching this. Next level car review amazing stuff
nice work mate
Thanks 👍
Excellent video. Most in depth reports on the SHARK.
Glad you liked it!
Thank you I appreciate your work
Glad you liked it!
Will be interesting to see how well it does hill descents and whether it has HDC or really strong regen.
Very impressive content and analysis as usual!
I'm just finishing Part 2 where I talk about HDC and regen. I'm afraid the news is not good.
I’d be assuming OTA updates for an ABS module wouldn’t be a thing either. But anyway, looking forward to round 2!
No, the ABS is software, so it could be updated as well, make better use of the hardware.
Yeah that would be really nice if it was just something like dropping some new application data on there
Absolutely superb analysis.
For my own city driving, I want to get what is called Suzuki Grand Vitata mild hybrid AWD variant (Suzuki's AllGrip Select) in my country. From your video, it's like a parallel hybrid that's FWD-biased but with a drive shaft that will power the rear wheels as well if it detects slip. The hybrid system there acts like a mileage enhancer - 800+ km on 45 litre petrol tank. Very little power, but I am a slow driver so I am cool with that. One can cruise at 120 kmph in it. What I also like in it is the great suspension for where I live. They AWD has a lockable center diff as well under certain conditions.
They also have a FWD strong hybrid variant here that has been frequently tested to deliver 1200+ km on a 45-litre petrol tank, and has an EV mode that kicks in when the speeds are low, like in crawling traffic. But, that one doesn't come with that AWD system that I want over here.
Thank you, more to come. AllGrip Select is an on-demand system, FWD then brings in rears as you say. Happily, it also has a lock mode to ensure the front and rear axles spin at the same speeds, solving the problem you see with the Shark. This is easy with AllGrip as it has a mechanical linkage, whereas with the Shark it has a software powertrain and that is much harder.
@@L2SFBC I have to appreciate the technical videos you make. Thank you so much for that. Numbers and measures are a much better way to evaluate, and you seem to know your stuff.
very informative!! nice work Robert
Glad it was helpful!
BYD are know for constant OTA software updates. If the media point out these issues I would bet they they update ASAP.
Maybe. BYD need to a) agree there is a problem b) know how to fix it and c) fix it. We'll see how much of a, b, and c comes true.
If made in China They'll find the way to makes it look bad
@@L2SFBC I think we shall see with these more Software Defined Vehicles, that such problems as the off-roading are rapidly rectified.
@@L2SFBC After watching about 10 other media outlets do the same tests, same utes, same location nearly all of them stated that these are pre production vehicles that have been used for evaluating Aussie conditions and will more that likley have different software specs when sales start.
Yes, I noted the same. I did ask what the differences to production may be, but no clear answer.
Interesting! I guess this is the future.
Yes and now also, the present!
Excellent review, vey scientific
Glad you liked it!
Great detailed content. Subscribed
Thanks for the sub!
Comprehensive
Thank you
Given the torque benefits from electric motors, I'm somewhat disappointed with how it's performed
Hopefully the engineers can figure things out 🤔
Great to see that you have called them out for how they have setup the launch model. The fact they haven’t fitted lockers is annoying. They did on the leopard 5 suv but not the shark…… why.
Yes, cross-axle lockers would help, but fundamentally it's a front/rear torque split problem.
Maybe because it isn't built to be a serious off roader because MARKET 😅
It does have some offroad capability. Just the software does not maximise the potential of the hardware.
Wouldnt a simple rear locker solve this issue
My raptor is no better than what was shown but when rear locker on it simply rolls on through
@@L2SFBCso it could potentially be resolved with software updates?
So far the only person i have seen test the off road ability properly. I actually seen someone at that same press event go "it has loads of flex" as he went over that cross axle section wheels in the air XD. I have been worried about its poor implementation of traction control since seeing one of their vehicles struggle over a metal ramp at their own event. Good news its easy enough to fix with software. But will they?
Loads of flex? No! It has a reasonable amount of flex. "Loads" is what a Rubicon can do with its disconnect. What you saw was not a complete offroad test, but it was the best I could do at the location and with the available time. More to come.
It has about as much flex as an anorexic chicken
It's not terrible, I don't consider its suspension flex to be a criticism point. There are disadvantages to lots of flex.
@L2SFBC I completely agree. I'm not criticising the lack of flex. I'm criticising the majority of "motor journalists" that just drink up the cool aid and say such things as "it has loads of flex." Very refreshing to see some one such as yourself actually testing thing properly. 👌
@@L2SFBC absolutely there are disadvantages. That's why most modern 4wds are IFS.
I'm keen to see the built in advantages of the onboard power system for camping.
It's obviously not a rock crawler, but so many people think that's what they need when it will never get used. My comment was meant to be tongue in cheek.
This is by far the most comprehensive and technically sound review i have seen.
Just curious to know what happens to total power and torque in byd shark once battery is down to 25% and engine is used to charge the battery as well as drive the wheels. Does the total power drop or remain the same? Thnx
Good question. I need the car to test. Suspect it'll be fine.
@ many thnx. When u test the shark pl also check if it is able to maintain power and torque going up a long hill after battery is down to 25% and engine is on. Practically speaking battery will retain charge for first 80km and thereafter once its down to 25% the real test begins when engine turns on to drive wheels and charge the battery. It remains to be seen if car is able to retain the same power and torque figures with this small engine both on flat road and long inclines.
@mazbpl yep
I feel the shortfalls could be fixed via a software update.
Best to wait a year or ywo before purchase
Software would go a long way yes. It's immensely difficult to program a replacement for diffs/powertrains, and carmakers are proving this every time I look at EVs. The *potential* is there to be better than a mechanical powertrain, but if the software isn't up to it, then the result will be worse.
A technical analysis from a 4x4 experts, 🎉Robert, what else they need to improve in order to tow up to 3.5 tons. I don’t need it much on hardcore off-road but capable to tow 3.5 tons of caravan on Dirt road.
Stand by for towing & weights analysis, I have the numbers, and it's quite good news!
Makes you wonder how BYD's commissioning process (if there even is one) works. It appears to have impressive capabilities, let down by code.
I am hoping that the diffs are pretty standard in terms of design so a companies can create proper Lockers for the front and rear.
Yes, it's more the front/rear torque split that concerns me at this point.
Hope you can test tank500/300 in the future
Me too!
I agree. It's a shame that it is front wheel biased. Also the software for the different modes needs some improvement.
The utes been on sale in Mexico for a while now. Everyone mentions the engine only couples itself to the generator. The total HP power output is electric motor output, if the Atkinson motor was coupling to the drive train it would be more than the total 450 HP.
go higher speed，more than 100km/h
only above 70km/h, similar to Sealion6. Remember it is single gear, so having the engine coupled to drive train at low speeds will be very inefficient.
I think most journalists don’t have the engineering background to understand how this system works. I have watched many reviews and have seen many journalists not understanding how the engine actually couples directly with the front axle above 70kph. Robert explains it a lot better than most.
No the ICE will direct drive above about 70kmh via a clutch. So it is not a true series hybrid but close enough.
Exact right boonhowe
Thanks for the detailed review. Thanks for clarifying that's its a pre production vehicle as well. One question. 1.would this be able to do river crossings? Would anything happen to the batteries?
700mm Wading. Water crossings are fine.
After watching about 10 other media outlets do the same tests with the same utes at the same location you were the only one who managed to make the Shark stumble over that exact same bias axle rut.
How is this so? As you said "Sand" mode worked well. If I take my 80 series out and just drive it off road and don't lock it up, it will get stuck at some point. Is that a problem with my vehicle or a problem with my choices?
Maybe BYD need to educate drivers on the modes and when they should use them.
I'm sure when you did it in your Ranger you had it optimized for that condition.
Also nearly all the other reviewers stated that these are pre production vehicles that have been used for evaluating Aussie conditions and will more that likley have different software specs when sales start. Did you not get that memo?
I clearly stated in the video these were pre production cars multiple times and with captions.
I tried all the modes to see which worked best. You can see the results. I would not have guessed sand mode would work best.
The Ranger has no modes to optimise. It is an old PX. The one optimisation I could have done was use the rear locker but I didn't as that would have been a pointless comparison. It would have crawled that in 2WD rear locked.
At the end you can see a proper drive of the obstacle.
The idea is to test the traction systems which requires a slow speed drive. Momentum fixes everything. Offroad you may well be in a situation where you need to start from a cross axle situation.
looked like you drove faster with your ranger than the byd in that same spot. try same speed and not stoping next time because it looked like you not only drove slower but also stop for a sec with the byd. 21:05
Both cars came to a halt in pretty much the same spot, thus forcing BTC to work.
Yep. The momentum carried the ranger through. It would be interesting to see the ranger stop in the same position and then drive out the same.
Some of that momentum you see will be the way the TC reacts.
How about its towing capability? Appreciate claimed weight limit etc but it would be great to see it towing fully loaded over hills and how this impacts the EV range and then the subsequent fuel economy when the battery runs out
Towing coming in Part 3
Great work Robert. I guess you have moved
When are you doing a full review, there is a whole group waiting for your analysis.
I know soon as BYD give me a car!
I have been driving my Fangchengbao Bao 5 for nearly a year
Ask me any question if you are interested in this BYD platform
The weirdest thing about the cross axial crawling is the engine just runs to a preset rpm to charge the battery pack, now crazy rev variation.
These are all very valid points with one exception: The ute had pure road tires on it. So how it would behave with proper Terrain tires is an unknown. At work I drove extensively in very rough Terrains of all kinds with Rangers/Hiluxes/D-Maxes etc. I have had a couple delivered from work that still had their "normal" tires on them and all then failed to deal with conditions as seen here.
No, that's not right. The Shark gets cross-axled, diagonal wheels in the air/little grip. At that point you could have muddies aired down to 10psi and it'd still spin wheels, albeit a bit less. You see with my Ranger that has good all-terrains on it that it also spins when cross-axled. The problem here is not grip of the tyres, it is distributing torque to the wheels that need it. Yes, good tyres make a difference offroad, but it's not what is being tested here. In the second cross-axle situation when the rear left is in the ditch that's where tyres would make more of a difference, but again it's still not the root cause.
The Shark can be ordered with AT's, Toyos or BFG
Early BYD DM cars are using that kind of P2 motor design, its quiet outdated, the new DMO is P1+P3+P4, so there are 3 e motors and 1 ICE engine
It needs a tweak in the programme & some software upgrades. May be the data gathering and statistics didn't match for actual use.
Anyhow, been waiting for this system for decades.
Sand mode looks pretty good to be fair but I don't think fancy traction control can ever beat a proper locker.
Both have their place and situations where one outperforms the other.
@19:34 I beg to differ. not staying in one set model can cause "automation mode confusion" which is a big thing. I prefer "dumb automatic" systems which do not override operator input.
Fair point, yes you want it easy to drive.
Thanks for the review. Are there any heat management considerations?
Not that I saw, but yet to test under duress.
So what sort is hybrid is the RAV4 where the ICE can only drive the front wheel and electric can drive the front and the rear. But the rear can’t be driven by the ICE at all? Appears similar to the Shark and yet is different as the ICE isn’t restricted to use over 70km/h.
Parallel. Whether it is FWD, RWD or AWD makes no difference. RAV4s have a conventional ICE, gearbox and torque convertor. Yes, the rear is electric only, but the front is not, so it's parallel. But yes, arguably series-parallel!
@@L2SFBCBy the looks of it the Front motor might be more powerful than the rear (this config is the other way round for example in an AWD Tesla with the front motor being the less powerful one); as well as a Front Bias.
That diagonal test was abysmal.
My Discovery Sport only allows ⅛ wheel rotation before brake TCS is activated making it ridiculously capable.
We have to remember this is a prototype and final configurations & tweaking aren’t complete.
Yes, well, Land Rover are the best at offroad electronics. I would have liked to have a Land Rover handy to demonstrate the difference. BYD does have a way to go and as you say it's a pre-production car.
Interesting analysis. I have the new gen Outlander PHEV, which has a similar drive-train set-up. However, it DEFINITELY has a rear-wheel power bias, especially on acceleration, and a more mature AWD system. It lacks the off-road staples like clearance, protection, tyres etc - but for a soft-roader it's surprisingly capable due to all that low speed torque available and smooth power delivery, especially on sandy tracks and the like common around WA when camping etc. I think BYD has used the same drive-train from their Seal 6 (which is pretty much an Outlander PHEV copy in principle) so I'm interested to see how they have adapted it and whether the absence of a geared low-range will be missed or not.
I have great respect for Mitsubishi's powertrains in their 4x4s and my tests of Evos. BYD doesn't seem to have that pedigree. I drove a Sealion AWD and found it to be feel front-drive biased too.
I'm going to look at whether EVs need low range...is the "oh but it develops max torque off idle so no need for low range" mantra actually true? A few calculations make for interesting conclusions...
You sure the byd system is a copy of Misubishi one considering the BYD system is far more efficent, powerful and sophisticated. And the byd pHEv solution was date back in 2008 and the AWD solution was from 2016. Around the time first geen out lander come about.
The BYD DM systems are not a copy of Mitsubishi, but they have similar principles. At least they are not very old fashioned PHEV tech, like the Ranger PHEV will be.
@@vasil7410 Don't have to get defensive of BYD people. I'm merely pointing out the Outlander has been developed in wider markets for longer and that the hybrid drive-trains are more comparable than most, hence my interest. It's not a competition 🙂
@@L2SFBC I look forward to it.
The diff lock on byd discrption is correct. You do split the torque 50/50 when both half can take the toqure. You just have solid axle. You cant make the traction wheel spin, none traction well not spin with diff lock regardless the type.
Another correction, brake TCS and stability control are the same thing. They uses the same control model and actuation system. The stability control can achived brake TCS if the control module capable of such.
No, an open diff always splits torque 50 50. Locked diff can go to 100 on a wheel. TCS is a generic term meaning Traction Control System. Each manufacturer has their own definition of what it includes. Brake TCS is definitely not the same as ESC, as ESC is an umbrella term which incorporates TCS, if TCS is defined as engine and brake traction control.
@@L2SFBC : I am confused. Open diff, left wheel has no grip and spin like crazy while right wheel - which may have some grip - don't spin at all. Vehicule stuck. How is that 50/50? Is it a terminology gotcha? Thanks.
My understanding is open diff provides drive to wheel of least resistance and locked diff provides equal drive to both wheels. No?
So basically the front wheels always spin faster than the rear?
If so, then in soft ground the front will dig in and be bogged.
Not necessarily. The software should work it out.
When you say the water issue has been solved along time ago, clarify more on this - your option it’s safe for water crossings?
Yes, safe for water.
Switch to EV mode for crossing you think? Will this negate the need for a snorkel for under wadding depth crossings? No more anxiety for non sorkel applications? Drive for 5-10 minutes before reactivating HEV and all should be good - in this theory then the airbox should have a drain hole to let excess escape or do you think a snorkel option will come to keep the tradition?
@AllTerrainAction yes should be able to stopper up the air intake and go in!
@@L2SFBC would have to turn on EV MAX MODE to prevent accidents foot down click and activate HEV I think, just to be 100% sure the car won’t self activate HEV thinking it wants power from driver input - unless BYD have made a specific mode for this.
@AllTerrainActionEV yes I think they should!
How about a give power to 4 wheels button
should be the default!
@@L2SFBC My new three setting proposal 1: Adaptive TC 2: All 4 wheel 3: OFF
Looks like a smooth power take up by the drive shafts, or do you think it might snap? Looked Jimny like. Was the type of test I looked out for.
Are the offroad issues fixable woth software updates?
Some of them
@L2SFBC, Great vid,simple Question. Which mode do I use if I have low to zero battery power, but get a full tank of Gas with the BYD Shark6?
You won't get zero. Lowest will be 15%, and that's an override from 25%. The mode depends on what you want to do with the car.
not sure about Shark, but BYD off-roader leopard 5 with similar setup can generate 20kw with ICE in stationary, max 90kw on road.
@@L2SFBC tks for the feedback, specifically I'd like to address the range anxiety. Short question_BYD Shark low battery, Full gas tank, want to get home, What Drive Mode/Modes can I use in this situation?
NB:I live in the Caribbean & BYD has launched a branch in my country, but we ain't gonna have Charging stations for a Decade or 2... but I'm cool with home charging, ( I live on a small island, WON'T be driving Far... can't really) so I think the BYD Shark6 could be excellent, once I know it can Operate, MOVE, with an Input of gas if the battery is low.
So, can it tow a caravan long distance? Plus gcm and better tow capacity
Got all the detail on that, coming soon. Only so much can go into one video.
How do you fix it or replace parts take the body off the rails
Wondering if you should caveat that this is a pre-production model being tested, and not the actual model that will be sold to the public?
I did!
@@L2SFBC Apologies I saw that afterwards. :)
Soon to feature on the “I got bogged at Inskip Point “ channel 😂
Yeah, i've noticed that with most Chinese 4x4's, they still have some way to go with their 4x4 systems.
Being Chinese, they will probably rapidly catch up and surpass Japan!
Not just Chinese vehicles. My Ford Everest has pretty average TC as do a lot of the utes on the market.
@@backdoc94 model year 2024 - 2025?
Question.: SInce most these cars are now "software" based, the slipping issue in snow mode may very well be just a software update correct?
Yes, proper software would help immensely.
Why the complexity for the 4x4 modes? Isn't as simple as send power to the wheels that are turning at a speed closest to the average speed of the vehicle? I appreciate determining the instantaneous speed of the vehicle and supplying the required torque to each wheel is complex but the choices presented to the driver are over the top or marketing hype?
There was a time when Adaptive Terrain Systems were great, but now electronics are so adaptable I query the need for them. The Grenadier does just fine without for example, albeit its BTC is poor, but that's not a adaptive terrain problem.
Great video! I own both a Tesla and a V8 76 series Land Cruiser, so I'm definitely open to different powertrains. I was hoping 4wd hybrids would offer the best of both worlds: plenty of torque for towing and a petrol engine for those inland trips where charging isn't an option. But, if I'm understanding this correctly, the issue is that when towing or maybe normal driving, you can still run out of battery and can't rely solely on the motor if it only kicks in to drive the wheels at speeds over 70 km/h. That seems like a big limitation.
I know we don’t have much real-world data yet, but the BYD Shark is supposed to get 7.5L/100km in hybrid mode, and the new Prado is around 7.9L/100km. So, I’m wondering: why go hybrid if the fuel efficiency is nearly the same as a full internal combustion engine? Unless you’re doing city driving on electric (which i will admit there is not really a lot of options if you wanted an electric ute) it doesn’t seem like a great option for 4wd camping and beach runs unless you have reliable power access. And i thought these duel cabs major market was families who want to go away and tow their caravan.
Not really, no - the ICE acts as a generator, in the same way a diesel-electric train works. It's not a case of exhausting the battery then switching to petrol. The petrol engine is almost constantly charging the battery, or generating electricity for the motors, unless the vehicle is in EV-mode in which case it does nothing. The computers cleverly mix all the power sources for best effect.
The 7.5L figure is only when the battery is depleted to its minimum. When it has 'sufficient' SoC it's 2L/100km.
There are definitely use cases for a PHEV, and if this one is affordable, then it can save you money if your needs meet what it can do. Also, you have a HUGE battery which can be used for purposes other than propelling the car, so another reason to use it.
I think PHEV utes, and this one in particular, are an exciting new option once everyone understands their capability.
Considering they say they have been testing here for some time, it obviously has not been off road - thats disappointing. Heres hoping they tweak via software updates, wouldn't take much.
I tow a 1300kg boat, some camping and exploring, no real hardcore off-roading and think this sounds like a very good option to look into
Yes it would be great for your use case!
@@L2SFBC any idea what the downball load is?
Yes. Towing weight analysis on the way with all specs
@@L2SFBC excellent, thanks 👍
What is the suspension on the shark?
Appears to have none on the articulation test 😂
Flexes like a railway track
Even as a pre-prod vehicle - considering they have completely separate control of front and rear axles, that calibration is terrible. Looks like they'll do a Tesla and releasing in effectively beta stage, and let customers iron out the bugs...
Brake traction control really just seems like a lazy and cheap way to have limited slip differentials. However, if these two systems work combined, it could be very effective.
BTC is better than an LSD in some ways as it can be more effective and there is no negative effect when it's not working. A really good combination is a torque-biasing cross-axle diff plus BTC. For track cars, I like Torsens, Quaifes or similar, open diffs...not so much.
@@L2SFBCan LSD can transfer more torque to the dri ing wheel. With brake traction control the diff is acting as a gearbox so you get double the wheel speed with half the torque to the drive wheel. I think a better solution would be a diff with a clutch that can be engaged.
No reason the wheel spin can't be addressed with a software update
Yep!
ROFL at the 1 tyre fire, so hilarious.
It’s a fully electric car and the controls are very different from mechanical ICE cars. Why would you NOT use the mountain mode when clearly you are driving on a mountainous terrain? And then turn around to make that misuse look like a smart move😅 And as some one else pointed out, let 5-10psi off the tires and use the same tires if you were to compare two vehicles side by side. Otherwise, the results are not conclusive at best.
The normal mode is optimized for fuel economy for city drive.
No, there is an Eco mode which is your maximum economy mode, not Normal.
As for Mountain mode...it's a test, so I tried all possibly relevant modes. This included Mountain, but not Eco. Turns out, Sand worked best which is not what I would have expected. This is why all the offroad modes need to be tested.
As for the side by side test - reducing tyre pressure is pointless for this test, the objective is to test the traction systems. The Ranger did have all-terrains as I pointed out, but once the vehicle is balancing on two diagonal wheels...the tyre tread is of less importance than the ability of the vehicle to distribute torque left and right which is what a good traction system should do.
@@L2SFBC Mind you, I didn’t say normal mode is the most economic mode. I said it was optimized for economy and urban condition and thus a vastly different algorithm. And sand mode yields similar result as mountain mode. And it’s not optimized for fuel economy. (you also said all modes should get a test drive yet the eco mode was not tested?)
Anyway you missed my point. An electric differential lock is very much an algorithm, different from mechanical ones.
What you are doing to “test” out the hybrid UTE is not conclusive at best. A semi-rigorous test needs to have some kind of standards and procedures.
I said all relevant modes. Eco isn't relevant for that test but Normal is as many 4x4s operate quite well in their Normal modes, and owners only switch in tougher terrain.
Yes an electronic locker is an algorithm. The SHARK has a conventional axle diff so it would benefit from a locker. What it needs is better front and rear torque distribution which is as you say software and hopefully will be improved with an update.
The nice thing with these BYDs and much of the EVs is that they can just update software over the air and these problems can be solved without having to buy a new car 😂
Yep!
Can that be fix with software updates
I don’t think so, as all BYD “off-road” SUVs in China are equipped with physical front/rear locks, a simulated center diff lock and a physical low-gear at the rear axle only.
BYD doesn't have good traction control behaviour. I have an Atto3 and when a wheel slips it cuts the power and takes too long to increase the power. Other EVs I have tried (Tesla, Volvo, MG4) are so smooth on the traction control you don't feel it.
also review other Chinese 4x4s
Have done some
On the toyota, you turn a dial to engage 4wd high, and just drive…
Painful watching wheel spin on a simple off road like that by a ute.. yeah they need to update it asap
You need quad motors to do off road well without locking axles and lockable centre. Braked is meh.
Quad motors represent even more of a challenge for software programmers as they now have to figure out left/right wheels speeds and torque distribution, not just front/rear. The potential is good, but only if the programming is up to the mark. If not, the result is a vehicle inferior to a conventional drivetrain and potentially even dangerours. See my video on IWD for more.
@@L2SFBC As a person with 34 years software engineering experience across all sorts of industries including automotive, I strongly disagree. It is the most trivial exercise to emulate a triple locked diff setup. You're matching RPM at all corners limited to torque of highest traction wheel by the throttle input. Child's play. Clearly this drive mode would need to be special and isn't suitable for on road conditions unless the goal is 4 wheel helis.
I agree with simple triple-locked, but I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the challenge of effective IWD across many different terrains. There it is much more of a challenge than simply monitoring four wheel speeds and increasing/decreasing torque when a threshold is exceeded. IWD should be able to do better than a triple-locked system, for example torque-bias front or rear as required, and left or right in response to driver input and also conditions varying from high to low speed, low and high mu, load on wheels and more. I think that's a complex task, you don't?
@@L2SFBC yes, but not off road, a bit of scrub is okay off road, be it sand, mud, whatever. The beauty of triple lock is that the torque moves around automatically and the low grip wheels are maximised by keeping the slip angle low or at driver request at least consistent. Triple locked will excell in sand, mud, rock climbing equally. The only reason you might NOT engage them all aside from convenience is potential for breakage. When that is no longer a concern why not run that mode constantly. Keep in mind that the software can do your ackerman speed differences for you automatically as it knows where the steering wheel is, so even that's not at all a concern. On pavement there would be no scrub, but you could for eg spin all 4 wildly and lose control, so not ideal for your average idiot.
No triple locked is not the answer in all offroad conditons. For example in sand it will generate additional drag needlessly, you'd want the torque/wheel speed of each wheel to exactly match the arc, and also pivot the car via torque vectoring. Drive around triple-locked and you'll end up stuck....unless I've misunderstood you? You mean starting triple-locked as a base, and then change as required according to steering angle etc? That would make sense, but I feel some field testing would be needed, and you'd want to torque-steer the car too. Also, I don't want a situation where a rear-locked car loses traction on the back axle and pivots, I want the front to pull through like a locked front, open rear. Then we come to hills....
Sounds like the same setup as an Outlander
Similar yes
This vehicle has the articulation of a frying pan. Literally no up travel on either axle in the videos when crossing the ditch at a diagonal. Let's just hope the traction control system is still in the "pre-production" phase and will be improved before production starts.
It's not great, but workable enough. The suspension tune needs work, that's coming in the next video. It's either not locally tuned, or not tuned well.
According to BYD hill decent can be set at 2kmh
Not on the car I drove. Asked specifically
@ apparently it can set to the speed you are driving at
Jeeze, my 80 series would just roll through that with nothing engaged and zero technology 🤔
not unless you've got ultra long travel suspension it wouldn't!
Didn't they want all you journalists to drive it on the road or something? Or maybe that bit is just still embargoed
We had a short on-road section, maybe 10km all up. Time was limited, as is always the case. Often some journos don't even use all the little time they have available.
@@L2SFBC oh right! Interesting! Thanks for filling me in... I just wondered why all the channels I've seen review it didn't seem to have any on road footage... At least not that I've seen yet... So now I understand
We had no chance to take any on road footage and there was none supplied.
@@L2SFBC ahh right! Okey doke. Cheers
honestly my 20 years old touareg TC is better than any of those modes 🙄
Very dissapointing off road, I expected much better.
Remember this is a pre-prod vehicle, and there can be software updates...so let's see what the production models are like.
@@L2SFBC Software for true 4x4ing?
@@brunoterlingen2203 not yet but one day it will be normal. Just like cars used to be inferior to horses
The battery os too small
Why so?
So it's a Mitsubishi
Off-road capability is a almost zero.
Clearly no better than a city suv. Shame.
No, WAY better than a city SUV.
These things are shite off road
It's hard to please ex Britishers. They moved their bodies to Aboriginal lands but their hearts and minds are Anglo American
2.7 Tonne? With poor engineering, no wonder it is not even up to 1994 standard - leave well alone I would say.
Thanks
Thank you so much, Super Thanks mean a lot to me, more than the monetary value!