That seconds-long shot in "Pathfinder" near the end of the episode when the transmission's about to cut off, and she's blinking a little too fast and there are tears in her eyes... if that had been scripted, it would have been zoomed in on, I'm sure. It's subtle. To me, that says she was really, properly living the emotional journey of the character. Or in other words, Kate Mulgrew is a damned good actress.
If you like Kate Mulgrew, if you've by any chance not played the Dragon Age series, there's a character in that she plays where she really gets to chew the scenery. It's good stuff
I don't think so, if I'm allowed a contrarian viewpoint. What I DO think is that the role of Janeway suited Mulgrew to a T. She's perfect for it, which is emphasized because of the weakness of many of the other characters. But looking at her other roles I don't see a whole lot of depth.
I saw an interview once years ago (never have been able to find it since) where Kate Mulgrew said that she got so sick of inconsistent writing for Janeway that she just started playing her as mildly bipolar in order to try to reconcile all the different and contradictory interpretations of her that the various writers had. I always just want to hug Janeway, give her a handful of mood stabilizers, and tell her everything's going to be all right.
I found that I was tuning in to see Janeway, more than anything. To see Kate Mulgrew turn Janeway into a legend by the end of the show, half Katherine Hepburn half Captain Ahab, fueled by 70,000 light years of caffeine headaches... now that's something.
I've been a Katharine Hepburn fan for forty years and I loved how much Janeway reminded me of her. After the premier Entertainment Weekly made the same observation when writing about the show. Kate Mulgrew didn't like people comparing her to Hepburn, but later played her in a play after Voyager. So much of Mulgrew's character reminded me of everything I read about Hepburn. In the episode where they alien is trying to convince Janeway she was dead and should follow him, she said my father wouldn't try to protect her from anything, allowing her to make her own decisions. Just like Hepburn's dad.
Janeway and Voyager were literally abandoned by the producers and the creative ideas of their writing teams cannibalised by the writers of DS9 and the STNG film producers. That left Kate Mulgrew to surreptitiously add an undertone (through performance) of Janeway suffering a PTSD type mental illness to add some depth to the character which in my opinion was a success and on a performance level makes her one of the most interesting characters in Star Trek.
I love that she found a way to make it make sense. Janeway was definitely a flawed character, some of her decisions are night indefensible(goo!Janeway the worst of all, refusing to take her ship and crew to an environment they could survive in because that wasn't The Mission), which is so much more interesting and risky than someone who's always right and never selfish.
I don't agree Voyager was one of my favorite Star trek shows because of her captain. I'm one of those people who enjoys a mission or a puzzle solve. I really thought I was going to be disappointed but they got it right. I was a Star trek show that lasted the test of time. Not like the new crap
I disagree Voyager is my favorite I just loved the stories. And Katie Mulgrew acting is great. Looking back I had my doubts but the episode that won me over was Faces an episode that wasn't about the captain. Go back and watch it
It was a decision she had to make fast; and that decision haunted her. If you missed the part that she always felt guilty for it, you missed the entire point of the character.
Honestly Janeway comes across to me as someone raised on stories of other captains who has been ambitious and hard working, inteligent and talented, with a promising career ahead of her... When suddenly she winds up in WAY over her head. When she is suddenly slapped in the face with questions she never thought she'd have to answer, and under pressure to make decisions now. A good person who wants to uphold her ideals, but doesn't always understand the best way to go about it. Who finds the way they feel about a situation changing each time the situation does. Who is lost without guidance or command, and suddenly is responsible for everything. What many decry as examples of bad writing or poor character (I'm not saying they aren't necessarily) I find interesting because it drives in just how out of her league Janeway is, not as a matter of 'oh this episode something really hard came up' but more the entire series is 'This is SERIOUSLY my first command?! THIS?! How am I supposed to know how to deal with this?!' For the most part we're following people who are used to being captain, even if they aren't used to the specific situation coming up but this was supposed to be Janeway's first time in command, and it was supposed to last 3 weeks. Her chance to ease in to command. Instead... well. And thats largely why I enjoy watching her as a captain.
Short answer? They were ALL great, in their own unique ways, each perfect for specific/different scenarios. You had the "Go-Gettum" cowboy, the moralistic diplomat, the rough-edged 'by any means' family man, and the maternal badass who I regard as the balance of Picard/Sisko, given she had both reckless AND diplomatic chops - probably why she was the first to hit Admiral. I've left out Bakula's captain given his time was a bit short, but I'm sure people can pool positives and negatives there as well. The defining factor is, while comparisons are easy to make, they were all unique and could serve specific functions, often succeeding where others would fail depending on the climate or quadrant they were in.
out of all federation ships, Voyager and her crew had the toughest time in active duty, because they had no back up from starfleet and had to make allies and find resources and food, and was in fear of attack
Actually you did miss something. There was a comment made by Tuvok where he said that it would take several hours to get the array working (it was damaged by weapons fire), assuming he could even get it working at all, and there wasn't time because it was being pounded on by Kazon ships. So they were already trapped even before they made the decision to destroy it.
I was going to say, I just watched the pilot and I seemed to remember there being some throw away line explaining away why they couldn't use the array. Plus voyager was getting pummeled by the Kazon at that point as well weren't they? I was confused watching it since I had seen lots of criticism of janeway's decision here, but it made complete sense to me in the episode. Idk, maybe I need to watch it again
In the novelization, she convinces the Caretaker to stop treating the Ocampa like babies and to give them the tech so they can live on their own in 5 years. This was the last thing he did before he died. The Pilot cut out this 2 minute conversation
voyager is one of my most favorite star trek series do to the fact it is one of the only ones that deals with the burden of command. albeit, at sort of a juvenile level. there are many a plot points in many an episode that focus around her struggling with the decision she made and dealing with those consequences. and they way she handled decision making, dealing with dissension, dealing with people who challenged her position, listening to her command staff, delegation, problem solving. i dont know what it takes to be a great captain, but i know what it takes to be a great leader and she demonstrates those qualities.
I have always loved Voyager and Janeway. I thought that Janeway was a good captain, I loved the fact that she was a scientist, she was smart, compassionate, and a very capable captain. I also think the Kate Mulgrew did a great job of bringing her to life in a role that to me is iconic. I realise that everyone’s opinions are different and that’s just mine.
I really like Janeway. Janeway willingly killing/sacrificing herself probably 3-5 times cemented my appreciation of her commitment to the crew. I remember doing raised fist of solidarity when she went into rage mode hunting down that Starfleet crew in Equinox.
The majority of this video about "Is Janeway Actually a Great Captain?" Has nothing to do with that subject, as you run off on random tangents for 7+ minutes. Then you base her entire 7 season captain abilities on the first episode and Tuvix. None of this is sufficient reason to claim she's a bad captain. 1. Star Tred needs a reason to keep Voyager in the delta quadrant, Janeway made a decision as all captains do to set the sage of being stranded and spending the next 7 years making it back home (hence leaving because they can't remain there forever). 2. Once again, all captains must make decisions that aren't necessarily agreeable, that's what makes Star Trek, Star Trek. Star Trek presents a moral dilemma/some issue in many episodes that must be addressed. There are plenty of decisions Picard made that are questionable and make me dislike him, but overall I like more of his choices and dislike more of his choices (Just as Janeway) and understand they are guided by a moral compass. There are two perspectives to each of these 2 points that you didn't discuss. Your argument isn't sufficient enough to make your opinion on this matter valid.
"hence leaving because they can't remain there forever", expect thats the reason that is given for them to stay here, they dont even try to do a follow up of them helping the ocompa and then starting their journey
You actually missed a line from Tuvok. He said that he MIGHT be able to use the array to get them home, but it would take a minimum of several hours to figure out how to do it. In the meantime, the array and the ship are being bombarded by the Kazon, disabling the self destruct and who knows how many other systems. They couldn't have used it, it would've been completely disabled long before Tuvok could've ever figured it out. The choice was basically just to blow it up, or let the Kazon try to salvage it. They wouldn't have been able to get home with it. Your other points were very valid though. However, I will say that Kate Mulgrew gets WAY too much flak, when it wasn't her fault at all. She's a great actor, and in fact she kept Janeway from being MUCH worse, by demanding more control over the writing of her character. The writers were still awful, but if you notice, Janeway got a lot better written and more consistent toward the end of the show.
Listen, Janeway isn't the worst captain because Archer exists. Jokes aside, I think the biggest problem with Janeway was the writers not being consistent with her character. They often had her be right just because she was the captain and not for logical or narrative reasons.
It wasn't just about protecting the Ocampa. The Kazon with Caretaker technology would be bad news for the galaxy - Klingons of the Ozarks, sure...but then, give them the ability to zap themselves 70k lightyears ...or bring other ships to them. That was powerful technology that they didn't want in the hands of a warrior species. ...and the show repeatedly showed her guilt over her unilateral decision, and the crew's acceptance of it as a good call. Tuvix was her chance to revive for Kes what she found failing in herself - hope. She didn't make that decision until after Kes came to her, admitting her guilt over enjoying Tuvix, but wanting Neelix back. And she asked Chakotay an important question...when did he move from being a transporter accident to being an individual? He was interesting, smart, and personable - the best of two men - but he *was* two men...important members of her crew, and friends. She was faced with saving *two* crew members, or one. And she did it herself, because she knew it was a heavy decision, and one that would bring feelings of guilt - because it *was* murder...but as much as the whole crew loved Tuvix, like Kes, they also felt that guilt of wanting their two friends back (as flawed as they were on their own). No one objected. He pleaded, and no one but the Doctor objected - an EMH programmed to not take a life (with moral parameters that would themselves be challenged later, when he has to make a decision on which life to save - and it blips him into a systems failure!). So...she did it for the crew, the living, and the momentarily lost.
OK look. The point was that Janeway was in an impossible situation and she did what she thought was right. She believed she followed the prime directive, and by undoing what the caretaker did she's probably right. Was Janeway a great captain? I don't know. But I appreciate that she was human and made human mistakes. You have to remember that Voyager was made right after TNG, if you made her 'perfect' she would basically be a female Picard. Poor writing let her down, but I also think she was meant to be a little unstable and bat crazy, but still strong and respectable - it made for an interesting, controversial character (unfortunately this was never really explored properly). As a woman I found her relatable and enjoyed watching her screw up but also get it right. Dont get me wrong, I love the likes of Picard, but I hated that he was always perfect. I feel like if you put most people in charge of a Starship, they'd probably be exactly like Janeway and there's something appealing about that.
Then you should hate Janeway for the same reason. She can never be on the wrong side of a situation no matter what, and never learns anything other than to stick to her rigid way of looking at the world.
I liked her. I pretty much liked all of the captains for different reasons. But Janeway always had a special place in my heart because this is the chick who is completely devoted to her crew and their well being but also has the element of wanting to explore. Plus she is tough and has a lot of spirit, and the episode 'Endgame' when she gets the crew home in 7 years by sacrificing her older self just proves all I said.
People tend to forget that this was a time-sensitive situation. Tuvok explicitly says that it will take several hours to use the array to send them home. The Kazon were already there and shooting at them, and more Kazon reinforcements were coming. Voyager would have needed to not just plant time charges, but prevent the Kazon from boarding while the array was readied while trying not to be destroyed themselves. Voyager was already damaged and having trouble against the Kazon ship already there, so how likely is it that they would have survived long enough to activate the array and go home? It's not a choice between "plant charges and go home" or "be sure it blows up." It's a choice between "be sure it blows up", "try to hold position and be destroyed," and "cooperate with the Kazon." They couldn't even activate the array's self-destruct system, much less investigate activating any potential remaining defensive weapons. It's kind of a "why didn't they use the eagles to fly to Mordor" question: One the eagles were demi-gods and vulnerable to the ring's influence just like Gandalf so having the ring be near an eagle for an extended time would be suicide (Gandalf as a demi-god actively resisting it is already a gamble), and two the Nazgûl would have flown up and killed them because Sauron would see them coming (Sauron's eye could easily see that far).
Every Starfleet Captain: Run away!!!! Borg is on their way!!!! Kathrine: Come on assimilate me I am Janeway... She is the most fearless Captain AND she rhymes.
Also, on a side note, why couldn't the Caretaker use his super-advanced transporter to send the Ocampa to another planet in a less hostile part of the galaxy?
All I care about is that time travelers AND the borg both speak Janeway's name as a terrified curse. She is some kind of cthulhu-esque god of destruction and madness to them.
The whole reason I started watching Star Trek was because of Kate Mulgrew. She is the best actor on OITNB, so I did some searching and found Voyager. I still haven't finished it, but she's a damn good actor on Star Trek too.
Did you watch the second episode (Part 2). She did go back to the planet to tell them their caretaker is dead and then sealed them up underground from the kazan. This is where they picked up Kes and Nelix.
every time i try to watch the first episode of voyager, i get distracted up until the point where the doctor goes "tricorder. *beat* MEDICAL tricorder." and then realize ive completely neglected to pay any attention to the episode AGAIN and have to restart it. and its STILL my favorite first episode of a star trek series. (to be fair... i do like that tricorder line)
Prime Directive. If Janeway didn't try to board the array, there won't be any battle between Kazon and Voyager. The array's self destruct sequence won't be damaged and the Ocampan will be sealed underground by the array and the array will self destruct. Janeway just made what was supposed to happen happen. She can't stay and help the Ocampan, because it's against the prime directive.
I liked your thoughts on Janeway but here is my quick rebuttal: This was Janeway's first command and the mission to the Badlands to catch Chakotay was her first mission as Captain. Her prior experience was as a Science Officer on a ship in Federation space. She wasn't as prepared to be a leader making those big decisions like Picard or even Sisko were when she took command of Voyager. Her federation values and morality were consistently challenged in the Delta Quadrant in different ways and it was fascinating to see her meet (or not meet) those challenges and grow episode by episode. The whole point of the show was that the ship and Janeway were alone. Her decisions (right or wrong) were the final word and this was especially poignant on issues of morality. There are plenty of times when she fucked up and was inconsistent, but that's what humans do. She was the most relatable of all the captains and in-spite-of (or because of) her humanity and all the pros and cons that come with it, she was the most interesting captain.
Or at least that's how it should have been. The best episodes explored this situation properly, while other episodes just wrote Kathryn as a complete Mary-Sue. Kate Mulgrew found herself portraying Janeway as a person with Bipolar Disorder after a while, just to cope with the complete confusion and lack of consistency from the scripts.
The battle between Duty/Honor/Values vs Survival was discussed a LOT by her.... She was truly confused and "scared". She had NO CLUE what to do or how to do it. The struggle of how to proceed was strongly portrayed along with her "inner feelings" revealing her almost "panic mode" Actually one of her very first THOUGHTS about it ALL was who are we and what are we going to be.... Janeway.... once she realized the vastness and true scope of the shit OCEAN she was in and no paddle, quickly and ALMOST abandon the "federation" way of life/rules/morals right there at the start.... she did not care and she made it clear her ONLY job was to get the crew home and does the federation way get in her way of that. I think that scene where she shows her "fear" is one of the best in all of star trek as a captain is thinking of "mutiny" and denial of the whole way of life that was her..... She knew INSTANTLY that those values/way of of life would forever be a roadblock in her way of EVER seeing home again. In star trek many characters abandon/forsake/turn on the very core of federation values..... but they are pretty much always the "vilan' of it..... I personally would have had Janeway chose to abandon the federation as now the federation no longer exists.... in her new world at least. Nobody would have "blamed" her if she made that choice..... and if anyone would flame janeway for choosing that road...... WTF ever............ you are retarded then..... how can you do things in a way that works there...... when you are here, 99% chance you will never see "home" again OR the federation.... YA, I would have had janeway forsake "federation values" that govern decisions as she no longer lives or "flies" for the federation..... She lives and "flies" for the CREW . I would have then had janeway slowly turn into someone else..... the "villian" who betrayed starfleet, yet not the vilan, her actions justified by the crew AND the AUDIENCE (if you would not justify the dire NEED to forsake that set of "rules" then GTFO and go live some LIFE for a little bit, then come back and vote lol Then as the series went on, and the more "pirate like" janeway become the "show" would have 2 missions..... get the crew home (obviously) and now the "rescue" of Janeway as she almost disapear into this new "evil" person who took her over. This "plot" was done for a VERY short time on "Enterprise" with scott bakula when he went into the expanse...... I would have had janeway all but disapear as a MONSTER is slowly released within her that all but KILLS her. Find 1 small situation that would otherwise be forgotten yet this little almost nothing "situation" happens that breaks the "badass" Janeway's spell as she instantly "sees" the level of evil she as become..... someone must die for some stupid reason and be directly linked to a action taken by janeway, not a major one but a small "decision" she makes that cost the life of someone close.... the only one she truly calls "friend" is tuvok.... so i guess he is the ONLY death that would shatter the evil hold on her. And then finally makes her realize how wrong she was to quickly dismiss a way of life and way of doing things that was the CORE of who she truly is. Would have made for a more dynamic/dramatic/attention grabbing series..... Instead of a few situations where she looks the other way, a federation CREW, a federation LIFE VOID of the very values that make them who they are the very thing to push her away, and be the very thing to "bring her back" and save her from herself. And the WHOLE time she is the Vilan, she is NEVER the vilan.... simply a mom who will do anything to keep her children safe and get them home..... not 100% unique plot, because a lot of star trek episodes played with this idea for single situations, but would most definately be a unique SERIES PLOT and would have your attention and interest...... at least it would mine.
If anyone watched the episode “Night” Janeway expresses her regret for her decision with “The Caretaker”. She is a woman who sees the mistakes that she made and grows from that. Not to mention, she genuinely believed she was doing what was best. As Tuvok says “Regret is her constant companion”.
If you judge a captain solely from a single episode, none of them are portrayed as particularly competent. For all his eloquent speeches, Picard himself has had his ass saved by Q numerous times because he keeps sticking his nose in places where he should know better. Kirk is a narcissist who repeatedly refuses to hand over his ship, endangering his crew, when his judgement is impaired. I think Janeway should be given credit for managing to survive an impossible situation without the luxury of a Starbase to park at every week for repairs and resupplies.
Sure they didn't have the luxury of a starbase to park at... But that doesn't stop them from getting shot to hell in one episode and then magically everything's all shiny the next episode. =P
@@falconerd343 a testament to the skills of Torres and her team! 🤣 But in all likelihood, just a matter of budgeting ... and the Star Trek rule of the reset - you can have whatever happen that you'd like, but by the end, they're all back to normal. I do wish they would've shown the ship as slowly deteriorating...like, not even mention it, but just show it, little by little. They do constantly mention needing resources, fuel, supplies for repairs. I guess we just have to imagine it.
Janeway was the product of inconsistent writing, a casualty that claimed goddamned near everyone on the show who wasn't The Doctor, a hologram who develops more personality than everyone else, or Seven of Nine, who was brought on expressly to be sexy and not develop, but actually does. Then again, in something like three episodes, Janeway goes from talking about how much she'll miss her husband etc, etc, etc, to cozying up to that Sikarian guy so fast I thought her last name was Troi. It's like the writing staff of Voyager brought all the bad habits from TNG, without anything like the stellar acting and individual performances to counterbalance it.
I'm always baffled by the hate for Voyager. I loved it. It was literally the essence of Star trek - a trek across the stars, pure exploration. Voyager, along with so many other great Star trek episodes, deals loads with ethical questions and decisions designed to make us think, not only for the duration of the episode but well after the episode has finished. The lack of good writing in the first episode shouldn't denigrate the ethical choice that she made. Obviously we aren't going to get 3 seasons of Voyager helping the Ocampa, like he says, but I guess doesn't really mean, because he literally says what a bad decision it was to leave straight away. And, the Tuvix episode again is a brilliantly written ethical conundrum, which stays with you and makes you think about the choice that Janeway made, and whether or not you would have made the same one. Like in life, every situation is contextually different and we don't always make the same choices again and again. Janeway grows and develops as the series goes on, and for me, she goes from good, to brilliant.
There is a difference between Neelix in "Phage" and Tuvix. In "Phage" it's one life for one life, the choice is hard but obvious. With Tuvix, it's one life against two, if you just count Neelix and Tuvok. It's many more if you count Kes and Tukok's wife and children. The needs of the many apply in this situation.
I’ve always had a problem with the idea of them using the array to go home. It was originally used by the Caretaker to bring them there in the first place. And that blew half the ship apart and killed multiple crew. And that’s when used by someone who knows what he’s doing. Maybe Starfleet ships are just too primitive to comfortably survive the trip. And Tuvok(a security officer NOT an engineer or scientist) is just going to start punching buttons on ridiculously advanced technology he’s never even seen before? What if he completely destroys the ship? Or Voyager arrives back in the Alpha quadrant at the head of a wave that destroys a planet? Or they get the coordinations wrong and arrive somewhere three galaxies away? Not logical.
That's a really good point. I never thought of that before. There's more than just the moral dilemma of the Ocampa at stake here. There's also the issue of her own crew's safety and using the array could kill the rest of the remaining crew or cause some other disaster. Maybe her decision wasn't as impulsive as people think.
She was an Awesome Captain. She had to deal with a lot, but I think the story is really about bending or breaking the rules not really about following the rules. You have the Maqui crew that join her and so they are not starfleet material according to the entire story thing but become starfleet material. So, there you have some rules being bent or broken. Sure she destroyed the tower and left those people to fend for themselves but hey there was more of them later on and they had ships, So it should have made people not think so harshly of the first group she abandon in the beginning after the caretaker died. Spoiler: Then you have her old self coming back to break more rules and give the armor plating to make it threw a shortcut to save the people she loved the most in her crew. At the end it really is more of a Captain having conflicts of when to break rules and when to follow the StarFleet way.
about borg and control panels, here is an idea: Yea the ship thinks and they are a hivemind. But thats also a system, and every system has flaws. Maybe the Borg act like a crew to act more like a "Immune system" for internal buggs. Like this: Ship thinks. Ship thinks its fine, but its actually not. It has a big hole in its side, and the wall had some important, exploding consoles. But the ship thinks its fine because the system got damaged when the consoles exploded. But if it has drones operating as a crew, it can notice the damage from their perspective, see that functions follwos commands and such. Another idea is that the core ships, where the hivemind is the strongest, is where they place the newest recruits, and it helps the recruiting process to have the body perform tasks its familiar with, like pushing consoles. or the consoles serves a function that has nothing to do with operating the ship Borg 5524ado472 has fixed the warpcore, and may now push a candy-button of whatever color it wants 3 times as a sensory reward.
Nice summary. One thing that is often overlooked is the chances of success, however. Janeway's official reason for blowing up the array is to save the Ocampa BUT the Kazon are attacking and Voyager appears overmatched (not helped by the damage they suffered earlier, or the Kazon reinforcements en-route) and Tuvok claims that it will take hours to program the array to return them. I'm not convinced that they would have lasted that long. Even if they did, they would have been heavily damaged, and the array damaged a perfectly healthy Voyager on the way in. It would likely have destroyed a crippled ship. On the other hand, blowing up their prize forced the Kazon to retreat, and likely saved the lives of everyone on the crew. It is just a shame that she never said that.
Tuvok would have needed more time to figure out the Array, time they didn't have. Time bombs wouldn't be a sure thing. The Ocampa would notice that the Array exploded. The Kazon getting a hold of the Array would be bad for EVERYONE. Not just the Ocampa. As for Phage, not only would taking the lungs back kill the Vidian who had them, but it would have left Neelix infected with the Phage, and doomed to a short life full of pain and suffering.
The big question is, why would the discount Klingons, veritable space pirates of the Delta quadrant who barely have warp capable ships that are noticeably less advanced than Voyager.. be even capable of understanding the tech in the Array without blowing themselves up? And why wasn't such an advanced station (ignoring automation of any kind, let alone self destruct) without security lockouts to prevent unauthorized use or tampering?
The Tuvix argument was absurd IMHO, she wasn’t killing one person, she was saving 2. What happened to the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few? Tuvok and Neelix had family and friends who would mourn their loss. It also reminded me of the original series episode where Kirk splits in two and the bad Kirk was afraid to join back b/c he’d cease to exist but good Kirk said he’d still be a part of him; this was like the reverse but Tuvix would still be a part of both individuals.
I disagree with your reasoning. Mere numbers shouldn't change that calculation. Let's say, for example, that Tuvok and Neelix were kidnapped and the ransom was to hand over a third crew member to be executed. Should Janeway turn over that crew member to save two crew members?
David Ranney different situation, she’d actually be losing part of her crew in that situation; here, they weren’t losing a third member, they were restoring two members that were fused into one by accident.
@@darkjediMIK Regarding what David Ranney said - even though she'd be losing a part of her crew, she would save *more* of the crew by giving up the person for Tuvok and Neelix. That's perfectly in line with your many > few argument. The fact that Tuvix was created by two other beings fusing instead of being hostages is an irrelevant detail. Just like in Ranney's example, it is wrong to forcefully take one life in favor of two others.
Agreed. Unlike every other captain, it was just her. People say "Oh she varied too much"... yeah that means she looked at the situation and adjusted if she had to to the best of her ability. She took on the borg, species 8372, the species attacking the equinox (they aren't given enough respect as adversaries) and got her crew home with minnimal deaths. That she was an effective captain really isn't up for debate in my opinion. Not everyone has to like her (I don't like Picard but i can acknowledge he was effective) but she was effectivel
@@MsAussieSheila She was a great warlord for sure. As a steward of her crew and ship, great. But as a starfleet officer, she was horrible.Kirk, Picard, Archer, etc didn't fall back on starfleet, either, except in some rare circumstances, and their decisions weren't made by starfleet. Janeway, oddly enough, leaned on them more when they weren't even around.
I liked the time Janeway told the alians "We have out grown our need for religian". Apparently she had forgotten her first officer who prayed to dead squerals and what not.
The array issue is pretty easy to fix. Have the array set in a different part of galaxy, then place explosives to destroy it after it's used to return Voyager. But have the Kazon board the array to disable the explosives. Janeway is forced to blow the explosives early while Voyager is leaving. This causes Voyager to be thrown past their destination and all the way to the Delta Quadrant. The Ocampa are saved-ish, Janeway doesn't choose to strand her crew, but they still end up in the Delta Quadrant so we can have a show. As a bonus we loose the Kazon as a villain, win/win.
How about this: They get the array but can't immediately figure out how it works. Reverse-engineering it to the point where they might use it would take weeks or even months and the Kazon are already enroute. However, an early contact with the Kazon suggests that they might get the Kazon to let them use the array in peace as long as they share their findings and let the Kazon have the array afterwards (and agree to the Kazon looking over their shoulders to prevent any sabotage). So Janeway gets to choose between a) trying to get the array to work but having to fend off an unknown number of starships of unknown strength with half the surviving crew not even being aboard Voyager, b) trying to make a deal with the Kazon, selling out the Ocampa in the process or c) blowing up the array and stranding Voyager 70.000 lightyears from home. That way she still has to make a really painful decision - one choice is a gigantic gamble that might not even have a payoff, one goes against everything Starfleet stands for and one will screw over her crew and herself. Going with the third choice would be very Janeway without having everyone act like an idiot. The Kazon do remain as enemies but could be retooled - instead of ersatz Klingons they could be a fairly reasonable race (with some imperialistic ambitions) that just happens to REALLY hate the Voyager crew for blowing up a technological marvel they were after. This could later be used in situations where initially nice races suddenly turn Voyager away due to political pressure from the Kazon - or even just because the Kazon run a smear campaign and give Voyager a terrible reputation. A lot of the problems Voyager faces could really be run-on problems as their reputation overtakes them, marking them as "acceptable targets" wherever they go.
Like all leaders, we don't judge them by one decision, but by their entire tour of duty. Janeway's first decision was questionable, but it also reflected Federation Ideals. Oversimplified analysis: The Caretaker issued what amounted to a distress call, and a Federation officer chose to render aid. In hindsight, it could have been done differently, but she made the call that she thought she had to. Over her 7 year tour, there were times when her idealism and headstrong nature got them into trouble, but it also got them out of it. For most people, personality quirks can be assets and weaknesses when applied to different situations. Janeway is the same. So were the other Captains. I like Janeway. In many ways, she's the most Kirk-like of the four major series Captains (haven't seen Discovery yet, so I can't compare). She had to blend two crews, foster relationships across the galaxy, engage in trade for supplies, and represent the Federation on a journey that would have taken over 70 years without the series finale deus ex machina. That's a big burden, and for the most part, I think she shouldered it well. Except for the time she almost killed everybody because there was, "coffee in that nebula...."
she's the smartest, the most cunning, the most dedicated, and most versatile. she defeated the borg hard core more than once and chose to be assimilated to throw them off. Picard couldn't even hurt one cube and was forcibly assimilated. oh and EVERY time she left Chakotay in charge he nearly got the ship destroyed...she quickly became my favorite captain
She wasn't my favorite, and she was a perpetual war criminal, but yes... an insanely effective captain. Some of her monsterous Prime Directive violations would have even scared away Kirk -- and possibly even Trump, dare I say it. ;)
Agree. This series doesn't really get going (with a few exceptions, such as The 37s, S2 Ep1; or Janeway facing Fear -- played by Michael McKean of Better Call Saul fame-- finale of S2 Ep23) until UPN took over the series for season 3. UPN still used some scripts that came from CBS with the franchise, but after 7of9 was introduced in season 4, the series really took off.
Nah, I think her lowest moment is when she was about to sacrifice her crew because she refused to hand over the species 8472 captive to the Hirogen hunters and the crew only survived because Seven of Nine beamed the captive over without her permission, saving the crew. She even wanted to do a suicide mission and pursue the Hirogen who outnumbered and outgunned her to get the prisoner back and would have ensured Voyagers destruction.
I think it's disingenuous of people to compare janeway to other captains and say she's a "bad captain" without factoring in that her very predicament is totally different. I'm stating the obvious but she's literally out there alone (cause she's alone) with no backup and having to make snap decisions in life or death situations. And you're still going "she's a bad captain". She clearly has her moments but she always comes out the other way (often with pearls of wisdom too), like any other multifaceted character really. If you separate the writing from the character, how can youjustify kira's actions, for example, and then turn around and condemn janeway's without looking at the bigger picture? You don't need to justify their actions, you just need to accept they're not black and white characters. Try and compare janeway, who's blowing up every other episode, to picard, who has his ass firmly planted in his command chair and a whole plethora of starfleet brass just behind him. I don't think whether janeway is a good captain or not is the question to be asked, cause she literally had to make do with what she got. And I do think we have to acknowledge that she was a groundbreaking character for so many reasons, but that's another debate. Disclaimer: this is a rant not directed at anybody and I love every character mentioned in this comment. Also I enjoy every trek series under the sun (apart from Enterprise but that doesn't count for reasons)
I always thought Janeway should have set up explosives, like Tuvok suggested, and then stay behind and detonate them herself. This way she could save her ship and crew, and sacrifice herself in good Star Trek tradition. (Edited for grammer.)
While I agree that Janeway made a horrible decision in the Pilot, there is an upside to it that was revealed later. Had she not stranded her ship in the Delta Quadrant, then Species 8472 would have defeated the Borg and then gone to "cleanse the galaxy of all life." Which means that the Federation would have been wiped out as well.
Janeway was occasionally great. When the writers could decide what the hell they were doing with her. Kate Mulgrew is a damn fine actress but the writers couldn't get their acts together to give us a consistent character.
Voyager was my favorite installment of the Star Trek franchise. I thought each of the characters from Neelix to Janeway were fascinating. Captain Janeway was a strong leader with a great sense of humor.
Yeah-OK....ignoring the bad screenplay of the pilot....we really have to say the following: Star Trek definitely needed strong, intelligent, useful WOMEN. And Voyager is full of that. I mean TSO can be ignored in that regard, and the same has to be said about TNG (even though I love the series)...we only have great men in there, but women are pretty and that's basically it (well...ok the Doctor...but well, sickbay is really not the focus of the show...boring...). DS9 has some interesting female charakters, but altogether they do not have THAT much responsibility...they're often really girlish....and they are flawed (which is interesting to watch) but there aren't role models of any kind on that station. Then we have Voyager....an BAAMMMM those women aboard, they really nail it (LOL...shouldn't say it like that)! Seven, B'Elanna, Janeway!!! The Fuck, I mean how cool are they when it comes to portraying female strength!!! Intelligence, cleverness, creativity, strength, faith AND sexappeal! That's what girls need to watch! That's pretty rare on Tele! And Voyager has it all. Voyager changed the Star Trek Universe with all its male fans into something more balanced: out of a sudden there were women adoring the show, young girls being shaped by Janeway and her team...That's what I like so much about the role: Janeway inspired me as a young girl to become a scientist and still preserve your female, warm and sexy qualities. YEAH! Thanks for that shit!!!!
There aren’t female role models on DS9? What about Kira? Or Keiko? Jadzia maybe less of a role model. But she definitely didn’t fit into a stereotypical female role and showed that women could be more complex than just masculine or feminine traits.
I think that Janeway gets more crap then she really deserves she has plenty of moments where shes a proven leader and she was formidable and competent. The actual problem with voyager is the cause of all the problems in general... bad, or at least sloppy, writing. If it wasn't for that Voyager probably would of been a lot better then it was and maybe Janeway would of gotten less shit then she gets... probably only slightly though. It doesn't matter how good the writing is there are people who are gonna hate her regardless lol.
Did you ignore that it would've taken hours for them to actually reset the array to send them back home, which was time they didn't actually have (TUVOK: Captain, I can access the system to send us back to Federation space, but it will take several hours to activate.). Or that the Caretaker was more concerned about the Kazon getting the technology of the array? And the idea that it's better for them to just use the array to get home doesn't put the Ocampa into a better situation either.
Absolutely! It was seeing Robert Picardo's performance on Voyager that prompted me to watch the entire Stargate franchise. And who can forget his banter back and forth with Andy Dick (EMH Mark II) in Season 4, Episode 14 "Message in a Bottle?"
With what Janeway accomplished getting her crew back I'd say she is the best fucking captain we've seen on any star trek show or episode period. She had her bad moments but of course she is only human and to be expected to have flaws.
@@Captainkwirk ehhhh idk I beg to differ, cause like he said it was the fault in the writing to make Janeway have a bad decision plus usually what I seen from all the shows pilots aren't the strongest ep for Star trek which it's expected of from most the shows. Janeway like the other captains we seen isn't perfect and that's fine plus the show does improve massively over time. So I don't think the person commentating isn't in the wrong here 🖖
I mean, she's the worst WRITTEN Captain in all of Trek - It's pretty clear the writers constantly messed up or forgot what they'd already written and often just did shit without thinking it through.
Loved Voyager.. Janeway was an awesome Capt. She was able to unite two fractions and make them a team. No help from Starfleet and she still hold to the principals of Star Fleet
idk that she's the one that united the two crews necessarily. I think until pretty late into the show, there were divides between the crew. I think, as much as I hate to admit this, Chakotay may have actually been the one to do most of the work.
I like the flawed Janeway, much more interesting that she overreacted, and maybe bowed to pressure to get started for home because of that. That mistake caused her regret and drove several later decisions, definitely more interesting.
Just a reminder: Kate Mulgrew was NOT the originally-cast Capt Janeway. Geneviève Bujold was cast as Captain Nicole Janeway and filmed most of the pilot and, I believe, many scenes from season 1, before deciding a TV series was not for her. She was an older actress (French Canadian) with an entirely different approach to the role and the original scripts were written with Bujold 's character in mind. Mulgrew had not been their first choice but was called to do the show and brought in after filming had already started. She often had to film shots that were then dropped in to scenes already completed. We don't really see the Janeway written for Mulgrew in all her glory until season 3 (the first season after Voyager was acquired from CBS by UPN). This also explains the ridiculous wigs in season 1 and that ridiculous Victorian-era holonovel, Lambda One. Also, the lack of any physical action by Janeway -- which we see in later seasons. She has her moments in season 2, but season 3 is when the Mulgrew version of Janeway really takes off. ruclips.net/video/8SIZcDWKyw0/видео.html&ab_channel=aobadger ruclips.net/video/vFZHpCK1KhQ/видео.html&list=&ab_channel=jony26
It was more like a couple of days. She hated everything from the shooting schedule to the hair and makeup they had her in. www.startrek.com/article/star-trek-archive-the-fall-of-a-voyager-captain
I don't know how long Janeway would have remained a captain in Starfleet if she did things in the Alpha Quadrant the same way she did things in the Delta Quadrant. But in the Delta Quadrant they were alone with threats on most sides, and she was concerned most with surviving , keeping the ship running, keeping a functional community running, and getting her crew home.
It's not that complicated... as Emrys Ternal says below; destroying the array was a time sensitive situation. So, time bombs would not have worked. As far as "abandoning" the Ocampa to the Kazon; it is still a matter of following the Prime Directive. The array provided an unnatural imbalance to the natural order of things and the development of the region and the Ocampan homeworld. If Janeway stayed to hand hold them, she would have been violating the Prime Directive by actively interfering in the natural development of the Ocampa. The array was already interfering, but having it fall into Kazon hands would have been even worse. Destroying it and then leaving was about the only way to try to follow the Prime Directive. Besides; i honestly don't think the Kazon would really stand to gain that much from conquering the Ocampa without the technology of the Array anyway. Kazon were very much established as wanting advanced tech they don't have, which the Array certainly was. A similar event happened in the TOS episode; The Apple. A supercomputer was controlling a primitive people and stunting their development. Kirk and crew destroyed it and at the end basically said to the people , who have just had everything they ever knew of how to live life destroyed, "Good luck to you! Now you get to have sex and die and stuff! Gotta go!". Also; Tuvix was not a naturally occurring lifeform. He was a result of an accident that then "ended" the lives of two actual natural lifeforms. Tuvix was never supposed to exist. Also; if you still have issue with her decision to restore Tuvok and Neelix at the expense of Tuvix, just remember.. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Besides; in a future episode, Janeway terrified Fear itself. Janeway is awesome.
Yes! Good points. Also, she seems more and more willing to break the Prime Directive while out there. Between accusations of it limiting her imagination and realizing that it's difficult to adhere to when you don't have the whole Federation to back you up with it...she was filled with doubt more and more. Think about it, this young new captain, daughter of an admiral, raised under the tutelage that the rules of the Federation, the guidance of Starfleet, are tops...and she's out there realizing that *applying* them only brings further strife to the people she's trying to get home. She's not a religious person, so that's the closest thing she has to realizing her god is flawed. It's interesting to see Kate Mulgrew acting out those thought processes...steeling herself up for the difficult choices she doesn't want weighing on anyone else's conscience. If, back home, they review the actions of Voyager, they will have NO ONE to blame but her. She'll accept that.
Who 's to say what should and shouldn't exist. Evolution is a story of mutation. The whole idea behind the struggles of Cmd. Data was that, in order to be considered a life form (and a sentient one at that), you don't even need a biological base. When you feel and experience emotions and can think logically and be aware of that makes you a living being. So yeah, Janeway did kill Tuvix. No doubt about it.
Hey Guys, I actually was a TNG only fan until someone convinced me to watch Voyager and I got hooked. I, unlike most of you in the comments really like Janeway as a Captain. Yes, she is idealistic and does not take shortcuts if the right way is the most ethical but I really think that having those ideals are important when you are the top dog. It forces the people following you to work harder and better simply because you are demanding the best of them. It is truly conceivable to me, that this is the main reason why the ship Voyager was so successful. I could be wrong but I really believe that. In any event, I was very intrigued by the topic of this video and questioned my liking for her after watching you. I went back and watched the Pilot episodes. This is what I found, the reason why she destroyed the Array is that the Caretaker asked them to with his "dying breath" so to speak. When Janeway and Tuvok transported to the Array near the end of the two part series to configure the Array to send them back to the Alpha Quadrant, the Caretaker told her that he set a self destruct and it will go off in a few minutes. As it turned out, a Kazon ship collided with the Array and destroyed the self destruct mechanism. The Caretaker then told Janeway that the only way to save the Ocampa was through them destroying the Array. If the caretaker set the autodestruct, then he must have believed that he Ocampa were seriously better off with no help rather than the chance of the Kazon annihilating them. At this point also, it would become a Prime directive issue/interference issue if Voyager had tried to help the Ocampa after destroying the Array since that was not a part of his request. If Voyager had decided independently to destroy the Array on their own initiative then their help would have been warranted. However, they simply finished the job that the caretaker started and failed to complete. I would love to hear your opinions about this.
This is my second time watching this, and I agree with you on the bad writing. The real tragedy is, the fix is super-simple: just remove the line about Tuvok figuring out the array. Have him say he _might_ be able to figure it out, given some time. Then Janeway has a perfectly good reason to blow up the array; she could even try to hold it for a while, which threatens to start a pitched battle with the kayzon, pitting her desire to send her crew home against the knowledge that every minute she stays costs more kayzon lives (and probably at least a few crew lives as well). Could have been a really great scene where a captain makes a much more _rational_ sacrifice, given there's no guarantee that Tuvok could _ever_ work the array, and we see a captain who is reluctant to shed blood even in self-defense if retreat is a viable option. Then it could still haunt her "what if I'd given Tuvok more time? Could I have bought more time without wasting more lives?" Oh well. C'est la vis
The problem with your writing proposal, is that you are trying to make the episode story more tidy. But is _Star Trek_ really meant to always be so tidy? Of course Tuvok figured out the array. Because he is just too smart and too logical. Why wouldn't he figure it out? He is a Vulcan.
IMO she’s the best possible captain in the worst situation, like her and voyager are all alone with no backup or protection from the fleet. She can’t afford to be philosophical like Picard or adventurous like Kirk or even diplomatic (lol) like Sisko . Voyager simultaneous has to be in constant survival mode AND manage to stand for the ideals of star trek in an unknown world
My general feeling toward Voyager is this: great ideas, variable execution. Her character was believable, in-universe. I think the character was written to be the kind of daughter that Kirk would have had, and Kate was overall great with the material. Janeway was almost a woman out of time.
How did you think that Janeway was a terrible captain? I thought she was a pretty awesome captain. Second only to Picard. The show, Voyager, wasn't that great, but Janeway was an awesome captain. Pretty bad-ass, too. Yes, there are plot holes, but that shouldn't be held against the character over-all. The only strike I have against her is that she's too stubborn.
I'm pretty sure that she didn't just decide to destroy the Array to keep the Kazon away from it. They were under attack and the Kazon's objective was to take the Array. Voyager wasn't strong enough to win and if the battle continued, Voyager would have been destroyed and the Array would have been taken anyway. So she destroyed the Array, preventing the Kazon from using its technology. As I said, she had no other choice; if she retreated, she'd have no way to take the Array back from the Kazon and had she continue to fight, the Kazon would have destroyed Voyager and taken the Array. In the end, Voyager had no way to use the Array for themselves because of the Kazon, so it boiled down to the choice that prevented the Kazon from using it.
A better solution is obey the Prime Directive and don't interfere in the Kazon and Ocampa's affairs. Had she gone home and left the array to Kazon they more than likely would have destroyed themselves with it instead of the Ocampa. Because Janeway destroyed the array the Kazon were definitely still a round to enslave the Ocampa sometime around season 5 when their power ran out and they were forced to the surface. So for sure her breaking Star Fleet's highest law did nothing to help the Ocampa in the long term, but she caused major political disruption throughout the delta quadrant and got lot of her crew killed in the process.
+THX 1138, that ignores that they were drawn into the conflict and the Caretaker requested that they destroy the array on his behalf. +Shanbo26, The Caretaker himself said he wasn't strong enough to send them home, I'm curious as to how that would've worked without him.
I was really hoping this was going to go into the entire series. There are plenty of arguments for and against Janeway being a good captain throughout the show. I'm curious as to why you decided to only discuss the pilot.
TBF, the first episode of TNG (IMO the best series) has Troi having an orgasm on the bridge while Picard has to have his hand held by Q to avoid destroying humanity by shooting the crystalline entity. You have to just cut off the first season or two when evaluating a Star Trek series.
I think that analyzing only one of the very many exploits of Janeway is kind of a really crummy way of figuring out if she's a great captain. For example, I thought this video was shittier than all your other ones and that your still being biased [as you spent a good chunk of it only reviewing one episode, and displaying your bias] but, all your other episodes seem rather thoughtful and intelligent. If I had to review whether Steve Shives reviews are good or bad, and only focused on this one single episode of yours, I think we'd both agree that it's quite unfair. P.S. I can write a 20+ analysis of Captain Janeway and explain why she was more badass than all of the other captains even if you united all of their deeds into a single entity, maybe that might help? :P
8:40 they where in active combat with the Kazan they did not have time to set charges or anything like that. And thing about protecting the Ocompa is just not letting a violent race get advanced technology not a desire to Shepard them forever. I just disagree completely with your assessment honestly.
Capt Janeway is a badass and has to make many moral decisions for situations that aren't her fault. Kate is perfect for this role and makes the character work.
The caretakers station is in Star Trek a extremely powerful device that even when used for relative good could kidnap ships a quadrant away. Yet at the same time it appeared to be easy to us as it took no time to figure out they could use it to get back home. Weaponized this would be catastrophic for basically the galaxy. The technology of the foes voyagers is an unknown at the time, to entrust the galaxy on a time bomb would therefore be just as risky. Lastly, developing a species that has no warp technology would be in violation of the prime directive. Blowing up the station was the best that could be done…
Why even destroy the array at all? If Tuvok had control over it and knew how to use it they could have used it as a defensive weapon. Just teleport any approaching kazon ships to a random point in the galaxy. Voyager could hang around for a while, teach the Ocampa how to use it to defend themselves and then have them send the ship home. Job done.
your overlooking that the Ocompa were cut off behind the caretakers shields, Janeway had no way to help them or even communicate with them. Any action she could have taken would have only ultimately hurt the Ocompa.
I recently got hooked with the Star Trek franchise.. I watched TNG, the original, and im currently on Voyager.. I honestly believe Voyager is underrated.. It's just my opinion.
Captain Janeway perhaps did a better job, than most bosses of most jobs. She protected her crew, she was like a caring mother, she managed to form a few unlikely truces, while most bosses hardly even want to be bothered by their employee's personal problems.
If you thought the writing was bad in Voyager, check out the first season of TNG. Not only is the writing facepalm worthy, the acting and costumes don't help (I keep replaying the "Shut up Wesley" scene in my head every time I see Wesley). The first season is truly horrendous. But it gets much better (after Riker gets a beard). I think every show takes a few episodes to really get their feet under them. Next take an episode from the middle of the series and see if Janeway has matured as a captain or not.
I see Janeway as mostly a missed opportunity. Kate Mulgrew is a great actress, and she could've done SO MUCH MORE if the show had had any decent writing. I think she did the best job she could with the shitty writing we got.
Apparently Kate Mulgrew can be an " Awkward to Deal with " person . I think Robert Beltran , the Overlooked character of Chakotay , is a Far superior Actor . And Ethan Whatsisname . Neelix . Great character . Annoying ? NO ! Noticeable .
The main problem with Janeway was the various writers seemed to have very different ideas of who she was and what drove her. It led to situations where she'd argue one way in one episode and the complete opposite in another and is considered to be right both times. This wasn't the result of character development and a changed viewpoint. It was random. As a result, she seemed insane.
... this makes so much sense. When I (tried) to re-watch Voyager all the way through again after college, I was confused with Janeway's character (along with copious other reasons). The notion that the writers didn't agree on what drives a character, how and why they make decisions makes sense.... but instead, they just acted the way the plot needed them to act.
It is exactly this. Unfortunately some folks fall back to the 'you hate her because she is a woman' which is preposterous(especially when we all love Belana, the hard nosed fuck you im in charge Chief Engineer) and the conversation goes away. She was badly written, end of story. That doe's not excuse her(she is an awful captain as written/portrayed in the show) but it does help explain it.
I like Voyager better than Enterprise and DS9 because Voyager actually had characters I liked: the hologram Doctor, Janeway, Tuvok, Seven of Nine. In fact, after they got rid of Kes, even Neelix was okay. The only character I liked in Enterprise was T'Pol though Phlox was okay. In DS9, I liked Odo in season 1, but after that season Quark was the only character I liked until they brought Worf into the series. And I don't like Quark much at all. So the only character I really liked in DS9 was from TNG.
6 лет назад+1
VeganVorarephile I liked Flox in Enterprise. Once you got over the obvious Neelix clone apparance, his dry humour and wit actually were entertaining.
Nah, Archer was the worst captain. I can never get over the episode of Enterprise when the Captain spends his time with the alien captain, while his Engineer meets the aliens' sex slave, whom later begs the crew for asylum from being a sex slave. Archer refuses, the slave commits suicide, and somehow this is the Engineer's fault.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Good captain or not, Kate Mulgrew is a damned good actress.
When the Doctor hologram and a Borg Drone are liked more then the star Captain is not much to Gloat about.
That seconds-long shot in "Pathfinder" near the end of the episode when the transmission's about to cut off, and she's blinking a little too fast and there are tears in her eyes... if that had been scripted, it would have been zoomed in on, I'm sure. It's subtle. To me, that says she was really, properly living the emotional journey of the character. Or in other words, Kate Mulgrew is a damned good actress.
If you like Kate Mulgrew, if you've by any chance not played the Dragon Age series, there's a character in that she plays where she really gets to chew the scenery. It's good stuff
I don't think so, if I'm allowed a contrarian viewpoint. What I DO think is that the role of Janeway suited Mulgrew to a T. She's perfect for it, which is emphasized because of the weakness of many of the other characters. But looking at her other roles I don't see a whole lot of depth.
I love Kate Mulgrew. Unfortunately I hate Voyager.
I saw an interview once years ago (never have been able to find it since) where Kate Mulgrew said that she got so sick of inconsistent writing for Janeway that she just started playing her as mildly bipolar in order to try to reconcile all the different and contradictory interpretations of her that the various writers had. I always just want to hug Janeway, give her a handful of mood stabilizers, and tell her everything's going to be all right.
If that is true that is amazing
inconsistent writing that it drives the character crazy and yes now i also want to give Janeway a hug
I found that I was tuning in to see Janeway, more than anything. To see Kate Mulgrew turn Janeway into a legend by the end of the show, half Katherine Hepburn half Captain Ahab, fueled by 70,000 light years of caffeine headaches... now that's something.
I've been a Katharine Hepburn fan for forty years and I loved how much Janeway reminded me of her. After the premier Entertainment Weekly made the same observation when writing about the show. Kate Mulgrew didn't like people comparing her to Hepburn, but later played her in a play after Voyager. So much of Mulgrew's character reminded me of everything I read about Hepburn. In the episode where they alien is trying to convince Janeway she was dead and should follow him, she said my father wouldn't try to protect her from anything, allowing her to make her own decisions. Just like Hepburn's dad.
Janeway and Voyager were literally abandoned by the producers and the creative ideas of their writing teams cannibalised by the writers of DS9 and the STNG film producers. That left Kate Mulgrew to surreptitiously add an undertone (through performance) of Janeway suffering a PTSD type mental illness to add some depth to the character which in my opinion was a success and on a performance level makes her one of the most interesting characters in Star Trek.
I love that she found a way to make it make sense. Janeway was definitely a flawed character, some of her decisions are night indefensible(goo!Janeway the worst of all, refusing to take her ship and crew to an environment they could survive in because that wasn't The Mission), which is so much more interesting and risky than someone who's always right and never selfish.
I don't agree Voyager was one of my favorite Star trek shows because of her captain. I'm one of those people who enjoys a mission or a puzzle solve. I really thought I was going to be disappointed but they got it right. I was a Star trek show that lasted the test of time. Not like the new crap
One more thing. I would watch Voyager again before I would watch Star trek Picard here's a hint I never finished Picard it was so bad
I disagree Voyager is my favorite I just loved the stories. And Katie Mulgrew acting is great. Looking back I had my doubts but the episode that won me over was Faces an episode that wasn't about the captain. Go back and watch it
It was a decision she had to make fast; and that decision haunted her. If you missed the part that she always felt guilty for it, you missed the entire point of the character.
Honestly Janeway comes across to me as someone raised on stories of other captains who has been ambitious and hard working, inteligent and talented, with a promising career ahead of her...
When suddenly she winds up in WAY over her head. When she is suddenly slapped in the face with questions she never thought she'd have to answer, and under pressure to make decisions now. A good person who wants to uphold her ideals, but doesn't always understand the best way to go about it. Who finds the way they feel about a situation changing each time the situation does. Who is lost without guidance or command, and suddenly is responsible for everything.
What many decry as examples of bad writing or poor character (I'm not saying they aren't necessarily) I find interesting because it drives in just how out of her league Janeway is, not as a matter of 'oh this episode something really hard came up' but more the entire series is 'This is SERIOUSLY my first command?! THIS?! How am I supposed to know how to deal with this?!'
For the most part we're following people who are used to being captain, even if they aren't used to the specific situation coming up but this was supposed to be Janeway's first time in command, and it was supposed to last 3 weeks. Her chance to ease in to command.
Instead... well.
And thats largely why I enjoy watching her as a captain.
Short answer? They were ALL great, in their own unique ways, each perfect for specific/different scenarios. You had the "Go-Gettum" cowboy, the moralistic diplomat, the rough-edged 'by any means' family man, and the maternal badass who I regard as the balance of Picard/Sisko, given she had both reckless AND diplomatic chops - probably why she was the first to hit Admiral. I've left out Bakula's captain given his time was a bit short, but I'm sure people can pool positives and negatives there as well. The defining factor is, while comparisons are easy to make, they were all unique and could serve specific functions, often succeeding where others would fail depending on the climate or quadrant they were in.
out of all federation ships, Voyager and her crew had the toughest time in active duty, because they had no back up from starfleet and had to make allies and find resources and food, and was in fear of attack
Yet they had an endless supply of photon torpedoes and shuttles.
@@DavidSmith-fs5qj Yes, replicators were still working as long as they could do supply missions along the way. "There's coffee in that nebula!"
Actually you did miss something. There was a comment made by Tuvok where he said that it would take several hours to get the array working (it was damaged by weapons fire), assuming he could even get it working at all, and there wasn't time because it was being pounded on by Kazon ships. So they were already trapped even before they made the decision to destroy it.
I was going to say, I just watched the pilot and I seemed to remember there being some throw away line explaining away why they couldn't use the array. Plus voyager was getting pummeled by the Kazon at that point as well weren't they?
I was confused watching it since I had seen lots of criticism of janeway's decision here, but it made complete sense to me in the episode.
Idk, maybe I need to watch it again
Steve: "I'm not here to dick around with nerd questions"
Me: *glances at 195 video playlist of trek actually*
In the novelization, she convinces the Caretaker to stop treating the Ocampa like babies and to give them the tech so they can live on their own in 5 years. This was the last thing he did before he died. The Pilot cut out this 2 minute conversation
voyager is one of my most favorite star trek series do to the fact it is one of the only ones that deals with the burden of command. albeit, at sort of a juvenile level. there are many a plot points in many an episode that focus around her struggling with the decision she made and dealing with those consequences. and they way she handled decision making, dealing with dissension, dealing with people who challenged her position, listening to her command staff, delegation, problem solving. i dont know what it takes to be a great captain, but i know what it takes to be a great leader and she demonstrates those qualities.
I have always loved Voyager and Janeway. I thought that Janeway was a good captain, I loved the fact that she was a scientist, she was smart, compassionate, and a very capable captain. I also think the Kate Mulgrew did a great job of bringing her to life in a role that to me is iconic. I realise that everyone’s opinions are different and that’s just mine.
I really like Janeway. Janeway willingly killing/sacrificing herself probably 3-5 times cemented my appreciation of her commitment to the crew. I remember doing raised fist of solidarity when she went into rage mode hunting down that Starfleet crew in Equinox.
The majority of this video about "Is Janeway Actually a Great Captain?" Has nothing to do with that subject, as you run off on random tangents for 7+ minutes. Then you base her entire 7 season captain abilities on the first episode and Tuvix. None of this is sufficient reason to claim she's a bad captain. 1. Star Tred needs a reason to keep Voyager in the delta quadrant, Janeway made a decision as all captains do to set the sage of being stranded and spending the next 7 years making it back home (hence leaving because they can't remain there forever). 2. Once again, all captains must make decisions that aren't necessarily agreeable, that's what makes Star Trek, Star Trek. Star Trek presents a moral dilemma/some issue in many episodes that must be addressed. There are plenty of decisions Picard made that are questionable and make me dislike him, but overall I like more of his choices and dislike more of his choices (Just as Janeway) and understand they are guided by a moral compass. There are two perspectives to each of these 2 points that you didn't discuss. Your argument isn't sufficient enough to make your opinion on this matter valid.
"hence leaving because they can't remain there forever", expect thats the reason that is given for them to stay here, they dont even try to do a follow up of them helping the ocompa and then starting their journey
You actually missed a line from Tuvok. He said that he MIGHT be able to use the array to get them home, but it would take a minimum of several hours to figure out how to do it. In the meantime, the array and the ship are being bombarded by the Kazon, disabling the self destruct and who knows how many other systems. They couldn't have used it, it would've been completely disabled long before Tuvok could've ever figured it out. The choice was basically just to blow it up, or let the Kazon try to salvage it. They wouldn't have been able to get home with it. Your other points were very valid though. However, I will say that Kate Mulgrew gets WAY too much flak, when it wasn't her fault at all. She's a great actor, and in fact she kept Janeway from being MUCH worse, by demanding more control over the writing of her character. The writers were still awful, but if you notice, Janeway got a lot better written and more consistent toward the end of the show.
Listen, Janeway isn't the worst captain because Archer exists.
Jokes aside, I think the biggest problem with Janeway was the writers not being consistent with her character. They often had her be right just because she was the captain and not for logical or narrative reasons.
they shoulda just wrote in that once the caretaker dies, the array self-destructs.
It wasn't just about protecting the Ocampa. The Kazon with Caretaker technology would be bad news for the galaxy - Klingons of the Ozarks, sure...but then, give them the ability to zap themselves 70k lightyears ...or bring other ships to them. That was powerful technology that they didn't want in the hands of a warrior species.
...and the show repeatedly showed her guilt over her unilateral decision, and the crew's acceptance of it as a good call.
Tuvix was her chance to revive for Kes what she found failing in herself - hope. She didn't make that decision until after Kes came to her, admitting her guilt over enjoying Tuvix, but wanting Neelix back. And she asked Chakotay an important question...when did he move from being a transporter accident to being an individual? He was interesting, smart, and personable - the best of two men - but he *was* two men...important members of her crew, and friends. She was faced with saving *two* crew members, or one. And she did it herself, because she knew it was a heavy decision, and one that would bring feelings of guilt - because it *was* murder...but as much as the whole crew loved Tuvix, like Kes, they also felt that guilt of wanting their two friends back (as flawed as they were on their own). No one objected. He pleaded, and no one but the Doctor objected - an EMH programmed to not take a life (with moral parameters that would themselves be challenged later, when he has to make a decision on which life to save - and it blips him into a systems failure!). So...she did it for the crew, the living, and the momentarily lost.
Then just leave a time bomb behind after jumping through.
OK look. The point was that Janeway was in an impossible situation and she did what she thought was right. She believed she followed the prime directive, and by undoing what the caretaker did she's probably right.
Was Janeway a great captain? I don't know. But I appreciate that she was human and made human mistakes. You have to remember that Voyager was made right after TNG, if you made her 'perfect' she would basically be a female Picard. Poor writing let her down, but I also think she was meant to be a little unstable and bat crazy, but still strong and respectable - it made for an interesting, controversial character (unfortunately this was never really explored properly). As a woman I found her relatable and enjoyed watching her screw up but also get it right.
Dont get me wrong, I love the likes of Picard, but I hated that he was always perfect. I feel like if you put most people in charge of a Starship, they'd probably be exactly like Janeway and there's something appealing about that.
Then you should hate Janeway for the same reason. She can never be on the wrong side of a situation no matter what, and never learns anything other than to stick to her rigid way of looking at the world.
I liked her. I pretty much liked all of the captains for different reasons. But Janeway always had a special place in my heart because this is the chick who is completely devoted to her crew and their well being but also has the element of wanting to explore. Plus she is tough and has a lot of spirit, and the episode 'Endgame' when she gets the crew home in 7 years by sacrificing her older self just proves all I said.
Don't forget Captain Janeway literally looked fear in the face and kicked it's ass.
No, she didn't. She sent a hologram to do it for her while she sat her ass in engineering and played Candy Crush on her phone.
People tend to forget that this was a time-sensitive situation. Tuvok explicitly says that it will take several hours to use the array to send them home. The Kazon were already there and shooting at them, and more Kazon reinforcements were coming. Voyager would have needed to not just plant time charges, but prevent the Kazon from boarding while the array was readied while trying not to be destroyed themselves. Voyager was already damaged and having trouble against the Kazon ship already there, so how likely is it that they would have survived long enough to activate the array and go home?
It's not a choice between "plant charges and go home" or "be sure it blows up." It's a choice between "be sure it blows up", "try to hold position and be destroyed," and "cooperate with the Kazon." They couldn't even activate the array's self-destruct system, much less investigate activating any potential remaining defensive weapons.
It's kind of a "why didn't they use the eagles to fly to Mordor" question: One the eagles were demi-gods and vulnerable to the ring's influence just like Gandalf so having the ring be near an eagle for an extended time would be suicide (Gandalf as a demi-god actively resisting it is already a gamble), and two the Nazgûl would have flown up and killed them because Sauron would see them coming (Sauron's eye could easily see that far).
Every Starfleet Captain:
Run away!!!!
Borg is on their way!!!!
Kathrine:
Come on assimilate me
I am Janeway...
She is the most fearless Captain AND she rhymes.
Also, on a side note, why couldn't the Caretaker use his super-advanced transporter to send the Ocampa to another planet in a less hostile part of the galaxy?
All I care about is that time travelers AND the borg both speak Janeway's name as a terrified curse. She is some kind of cthulhu-esque god of destruction and madness to them.
The whole reason I started watching Star Trek was because of Kate Mulgrew. She is the best actor on OITNB, so I did some searching and found Voyager. I still haven't finished it, but she's a damn good actor on Star Trek too.
Did you watch the second episode (Part 2). She did go back to the planet to tell them their caretaker is dead and then sealed them up underground from the kazan. This is where they picked up Kes and Nelix.
Good point.
every time i try to watch the first episode of voyager, i get distracted up until the point where the doctor goes "tricorder. *beat* MEDICAL tricorder." and then realize ive completely neglected to pay any attention to the episode AGAIN and have to restart it.
and its STILL my favorite first episode of a star trek series.
(to be fair... i do like that tricorder line)
Janeway was the most "human" captain we ever saw! She was complicated, brilliant and compassionate.
Prime Directive. If Janeway didn't try to board the array, there won't be any battle between Kazon and Voyager. The array's self destruct sequence won't be damaged and the Ocampan will be sealed underground by the array and the array will self destruct. Janeway just made what was supposed to happen happen. She can't stay and help the Ocampan, because it's against the prime directive.
I liked your thoughts on Janeway but here is my quick rebuttal:
This was Janeway's first command and the mission to the Badlands to catch Chakotay was her first mission as Captain. Her prior experience was as a Science Officer on a ship in Federation space. She wasn't as prepared to be a leader making those big decisions like Picard or even Sisko were when she took command of Voyager. Her federation values and morality were consistently challenged in the Delta Quadrant in different ways and it was fascinating to see her meet (or not meet) those challenges and grow episode by episode. The whole point of the show was that the ship and Janeway were alone. Her decisions (right or wrong) were the final word and this was especially poignant on issues of morality. There are plenty of times when she fucked up and was inconsistent, but that's what humans do. She was the most relatable of all the captains and in-spite-of (or because of) her humanity and all the pros and cons that come with it, she was the most interesting captain.
Or at least that's how it should have been. The best episodes explored this situation properly, while other episodes just wrote Kathryn as a complete Mary-Sue. Kate Mulgrew found herself portraying Janeway as a person with Bipolar Disorder after a while, just to cope with the complete confusion and lack of consistency from the scripts.
The battle between Duty/Honor/Values vs Survival was discussed a LOT by her.... She was truly confused and "scared". She had NO CLUE what to do or how to do it. The struggle of how to proceed was strongly portrayed along with her "inner feelings" revealing her almost "panic mode" Actually one of her very first THOUGHTS about it ALL was who are we and what are we going to be.... Janeway.... once she realized the vastness and true scope of the shit OCEAN she was in and no paddle, quickly and ALMOST abandon the "federation" way of life/rules/morals right there at the start.... she did not care and she made it clear her ONLY job was to get the crew home and does the federation way get in her way of that. I think that scene where she shows her "fear" is one of the best in all of star trek as a captain is thinking of "mutiny" and denial of the whole way of life that was her..... She knew INSTANTLY that those values/way of of life would forever be a roadblock in her way of EVER seeing home again.
In star trek many characters abandon/forsake/turn on the very core of federation values..... but they are pretty much always the "vilan' of it.....
I personally would have had Janeway chose to abandon the federation as now the federation no longer exists.... in her new world at least. Nobody would have "blamed" her if she made that choice..... and if anyone would flame janeway for choosing that road...... WTF ever............ you are retarded then..... how can you do things in a way that works there...... when you are here, 99% chance you will never see "home" again OR the federation.... YA, I would have had janeway forsake "federation values" that govern decisions as she no longer lives or "flies" for the federation..... She lives and "flies" for the CREW .
I would have then had janeway slowly turn into someone else..... the "villian" who betrayed starfleet, yet not the vilan, her actions justified by the crew AND the AUDIENCE (if you would not justify the dire NEED to forsake that set of "rules" then GTFO and go live some LIFE for a little bit, then come back and vote lol
Then as the series went on, and the more "pirate like" janeway become the "show" would have 2 missions..... get the crew home (obviously) and now the "rescue" of Janeway as she almost disapear into this new "evil" person who took her over. This "plot" was done for a VERY short time on "Enterprise" with scott bakula when he went into the expanse...... I would have had janeway all but disapear as a MONSTER is slowly released within her that all but KILLS her. Find 1 small situation that would otherwise be forgotten yet this little almost nothing "situation" happens that breaks the "badass" Janeway's spell as she instantly "sees" the level of evil she as become..... someone must die for some stupid reason and be directly linked to a action taken by janeway, not a major one but a small "decision" she makes that cost the life of someone close.... the only one she truly calls "friend" is tuvok.... so i guess he is the ONLY death that would shatter the evil hold on her. And then finally makes her realize how wrong she was to quickly dismiss a way of life and way of doing things that was the CORE of who she truly is. Would have made for a more dynamic/dramatic/attention grabbing series..... Instead of a few situations where she looks the other way, a federation CREW, a federation LIFE VOID of the very values that make them who they are the very thing to push her away, and be the very thing to "bring her back" and save her from herself. And the WHOLE time she is the Vilan, she is NEVER the vilan.... simply a mom who will do anything to keep her children safe and get them home..... not 100% unique plot, because a lot of star trek episodes played with this idea for single situations, but would most definately be a unique SERIES PLOT and would have your attention and interest...... at least it would mine.
If anyone watched the episode “Night” Janeway expresses her regret for her decision with “The Caretaker”. She is a woman who sees the mistakes that she made and grows from that. Not to mention, she genuinely believed she was doing what was best. As Tuvok says “Regret is her constant companion”.
“You can’t kill my crew! That’s my job!” -Janeway, basically always
If you judge a captain solely from a single episode, none of them are portrayed as particularly competent. For all his eloquent speeches, Picard himself has had his ass saved by Q numerous times because he keeps sticking his nose in places where he should know better. Kirk is a narcissist who repeatedly refuses to hand over his ship, endangering his crew, when his judgement is impaired.
I think Janeway should be given credit for managing to survive an impossible situation without the luxury of a Starbase to park at every week for repairs and resupplies.
Sure they didn't have the luxury of a starbase to park at... But that doesn't stop them from getting shot to hell in one episode and then magically everything's all shiny the next episode. =P
@@falconerd343 a testament to the skills of Torres and her team! 🤣 But in all likelihood, just a matter of budgeting ... and the Star Trek rule of the reset - you can have whatever happen that you'd like, but by the end, they're all back to normal.
I do wish they would've shown the ship as slowly deteriorating...like, not even mention it, but just show it, little by little. They do constantly mention needing resources, fuel, supplies for repairs. I guess we just have to imagine it.
@@kaydb42 The rule of reset…sounds endemic to television and cinema in general, not just Star Trek. :P
Janeway was the product of inconsistent writing, a casualty that claimed goddamned near everyone on the show who wasn't The Doctor, a hologram who develops more personality than everyone else, or Seven of Nine, who was brought on expressly to be sexy and not develop, but actually does. Then again, in something like three episodes, Janeway goes from talking about how much she'll miss her husband etc, etc, etc, to cozying up to that Sikarian guy so fast I thought her last name was Troi. It's like the writing staff of Voyager brought all the bad habits from TNG, without anything like the stellar acting and individual performances to counterbalance it.
I'm always baffled by the hate for Voyager. I loved it. It was literally the essence of Star trek - a trek across the stars, pure exploration. Voyager, along with so many other great Star trek episodes, deals loads with ethical questions and decisions designed to make us think, not only for the duration of the episode but well after the episode has finished. The lack of good writing in the first episode shouldn't denigrate the ethical choice that she made. Obviously we aren't going to get 3 seasons of Voyager helping the Ocampa, like he says, but I guess doesn't really mean, because he literally says what a bad decision it was to leave straight away. And, the Tuvix episode again is a brilliantly written ethical conundrum, which stays with you and makes you think about the choice that Janeway made, and whether or not you would have made the same one. Like in life, every situation is contextually different and we don't always make the same choices again and again. Janeway grows and develops as the series goes on, and for me, she goes from good, to brilliant.
She's a good actor who got held back by crappy writing. An event that happens way to often in Hollywood...
There is a difference between Neelix in "Phage" and Tuvix. In "Phage" it's one life for one life, the choice is hard but obvious. With Tuvix, it's one life against two, if you just count Neelix and Tuvok. It's many more if you count Kes and Tukok's wife and children. The needs of the many apply in this situation.
I’ve always had a problem with the idea of them using the array to go home. It was originally used by the Caretaker to bring them there in the first place. And that blew half the ship apart and killed multiple crew. And that’s when used by someone who knows what he’s doing. Maybe Starfleet ships are just too primitive to comfortably survive the trip. And Tuvok(a security officer NOT an engineer or scientist) is just going to start punching buttons on ridiculously advanced technology he’s never even seen before? What if he completely destroys the ship? Or Voyager arrives back in the Alpha quadrant at the head of a wave that destroys a planet? Or they get the coordinations wrong and arrive somewhere three galaxies away? Not logical.
That's a really good point. I never thought of that before. There's more than just the moral dilemma of the Ocampa at stake here. There's also the issue of her own crew's safety and using the array could kill the rest of the remaining crew or cause some other disaster. Maybe her decision wasn't as impulsive as people think.
Damn, I wish that had been the argument in the story.
She was an Awesome Captain. She had to deal with a lot, but I think the story is really about bending or breaking the rules not really about following the rules.
You have the Maqui crew that join her and so they are not starfleet material according to the entire story thing but become starfleet material.
So, there you have some rules being bent or broken.
Sure she destroyed the tower and left those people to fend for themselves but hey there was more of them later on and they had ships, So it should have made people not think so harshly of the first group she abandon in the beginning after the caretaker died.
Spoiler:
Then you have her old self coming back to break more rules and give the armor plating to make it threw a shortcut to save the people she loved the most in her crew.
At the end it really is more of a Captain having conflicts of when to break rules and when to follow the StarFleet way.
she wasn't willing to trade one life for another: but was willing to trade one life for two... i mean that's just good math.
about borg and control panels, here is an idea:
Yea the ship thinks and they are a hivemind. But thats also a system, and every system has flaws. Maybe the Borg act like a crew to act more like a "Immune system" for internal buggs.
Like this:
Ship thinks. Ship thinks its fine, but its actually not. It has a big hole in its side, and the wall had some important, exploding consoles. But the ship thinks its fine because the system got damaged when the consoles exploded. But if it has drones operating as a crew, it can notice the damage from their perspective, see that functions follwos commands and such.
Another idea is that the core ships, where the hivemind is the strongest, is where they place the newest recruits, and it helps the recruiting process to have the body perform tasks its familiar with, like pushing consoles.
or the consoles serves a function that has nothing to do with operating the ship
Borg 5524ado472 has fixed the warpcore, and may now push a candy-button of whatever color it wants 3 times as a sensory reward.
Nice summary. One thing that is often overlooked is the chances of success, however. Janeway's official reason for blowing up the array is to save the Ocampa BUT the Kazon are attacking and Voyager appears overmatched (not helped by the damage they suffered earlier, or the Kazon reinforcements en-route) and Tuvok claims that it will take hours to program the array to return them. I'm not convinced that they would have lasted that long. Even if they did, they would have been heavily damaged, and the array damaged a perfectly healthy Voyager on the way in. It would likely have destroyed a crippled ship. On the other hand, blowing up their prize forced the Kazon to retreat, and likely saved the lives of everyone on the crew. It is just a shame that she never said that.
Tuvok would have needed more time to figure out the Array, time they didn't have.
Time bombs wouldn't be a sure thing.
The Ocampa would notice that the Array exploded.
The Kazon getting a hold of the Array would be bad for EVERYONE. Not just the Ocampa.
As for Phage, not only would taking the lungs back kill the Vidian who had them, but it would have left Neelix infected with the Phage, and doomed to a short life full of pain and suffering.
The big question is, why would the discount Klingons, veritable space pirates of the Delta quadrant who barely have warp capable ships that are noticeably less advanced than Voyager.. be even capable of understanding the tech in the Array without blowing themselves up? And why wasn't such an advanced station (ignoring automation of any kind, let alone self destruct) without security lockouts to prevent unauthorized use or tampering?
The Tuvix argument was absurd IMHO, she wasn’t killing one person, she was saving 2. What happened to the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few? Tuvok and Neelix had family and friends who would mourn their loss.
It also reminded me of the original series episode where Kirk splits in two and the bad Kirk was afraid to join back b/c he’d cease to exist but good Kirk said he’d still be a part of him; this was like the reverse but Tuvix would still be a part of both individuals.
I disagree with your reasoning. Mere numbers shouldn't change that calculation. Let's say, for example, that Tuvok and Neelix were kidnapped and the ransom was to hand over a third crew member to be executed. Should Janeway turn over that crew member to save two crew members?
David Ranney different situation, she’d actually be losing part of her crew in that situation; here, they weren’t losing a third member, they were restoring two members that were fused into one by accident.
@@darkjediMIK
Regarding what David Ranney said - even though she'd be losing a part of her crew, she would save *more* of the crew by giving up the person for Tuvok and Neelix. That's perfectly in line with your many > few argument. The fact that Tuvix was created by two other beings fusing instead of being hostages is an irrelevant detail. Just like in Ranney's example, it is wrong to forcefully take one life in favor of two others.
Love Janeway, love Voyager. Let’s not forget she didn’t have Starfleet to fall back on for the big decisions. She did a superb job.
Agreed. Unlike every other captain, it was just her. People say "Oh she varied too much"... yeah that means she looked at the situation and adjusted if she had to to the best of her ability.
She took on the borg, species 8372, the species attacking the equinox (they aren't given enough respect as adversaries) and got her crew home with minnimal deaths.
That she was an effective captain really isn't up for debate in my opinion. Not everyone has to like her (I don't like Picard but i can acknowledge he was effective) but she was effectivel
@@MsAussieSheila She was a great warlord for sure. As a steward of her crew and ship, great. But as a starfleet officer, she was horrible.Kirk, Picard, Archer, etc didn't fall back on starfleet, either, except in some rare circumstances, and their decisions weren't made by starfleet. Janeway, oddly enough, leaned on them more when they weren't even around.
I liked the time Janeway told the alians "We have out grown our need for religian". Apparently she had forgotten her first officer who prayed to dead squerals and what not.
The array issue is pretty easy to fix. Have the array set in a different part of galaxy, then place explosives to destroy it after it's used to return Voyager. But have the Kazon board the array to disable the explosives. Janeway is forced to blow the explosives early while Voyager is leaving. This causes Voyager to be thrown past their destination and all the way to the Delta Quadrant. The Ocampa are saved-ish, Janeway doesn't choose to strand her crew, but they still end up in the Delta Quadrant so we can have a show. As a bonus we loose the Kazon as a villain, win/win.
How about this: They get the array but can't immediately figure out how it works. Reverse-engineering it to the point where they might use it would take weeks or even months and the Kazon are already enroute. However, an early contact with the Kazon suggests that they might get the Kazon to let them use the array in peace as long as they share their findings and let the Kazon have the array afterwards (and agree to the Kazon looking over their shoulders to prevent any sabotage).
So Janeway gets to choose between a) trying to get the array to work but having to fend off an unknown number of starships of unknown strength with half the surviving crew not even being aboard Voyager, b) trying to make a deal with the Kazon, selling out the Ocampa in the process or c) blowing up the array and stranding Voyager 70.000 lightyears from home.
That way she still has to make a really painful decision - one choice is a gigantic gamble that might not even have a payoff, one goes against everything Starfleet stands for and one will screw over her crew and herself. Going with the third choice would be very Janeway without having everyone act like an idiot.
The Kazon do remain as enemies but could be retooled - instead of ersatz Klingons they could be a fairly reasonable race (with some imperialistic ambitions) that just happens to REALLY hate the Voyager crew for blowing up a technological marvel they were after. This could later be used in situations where initially nice races suddenly turn Voyager away due to political pressure from the Kazon - or even just because the Kazon run a smear campaign and give Voyager a terrible reputation. A lot of the problems Voyager faces could really be run-on problems as their reputation overtakes them, marking them as "acceptable targets" wherever they go.
@@j6cubic This is basically what Tuvok suggested, though!
Like all leaders, we don't judge them by one decision, but by their entire tour of duty. Janeway's first decision was questionable, but it also reflected Federation Ideals. Oversimplified analysis: The Caretaker issued what amounted to a distress call, and a Federation officer chose to render aid. In hindsight, it could have been done differently, but she made the call that she thought she had to.
Over her 7 year tour, there were times when her idealism and headstrong nature got them into trouble, but it also got them out of it. For most people, personality quirks can be assets and weaknesses when applied to different situations. Janeway is the same. So were the other Captains.
I like Janeway. In many ways, she's the most Kirk-like of the four major series Captains (haven't seen Discovery yet, so I can't compare). She had to blend two crews, foster relationships across the galaxy, engage in trade for supplies, and represent the Federation on a journey that would have taken over 70 years without the series finale deus ex machina. That's a big burden, and for the most part, I think she shouldered it well.
Except for the time she almost killed everybody because there was, "coffee in that nebula...."
I like her, she is a badass
she's the smartest, the most cunning, the most dedicated, and most versatile. she defeated the borg hard core more than once and chose to be assimilated to throw them off. Picard couldn't even hurt one cube and was forcibly assimilated. oh and EVERY time she left Chakotay in charge he nearly got the ship destroyed...she quickly became my favorite captain
She wasn't my favorite, and she was a perpetual war criminal, but yes... an insanely effective captain.
Some of her monsterous Prime Directive violations would have even scared away Kirk -- and possibly even Trump, dare I say it. ;)
I think that the pilot episode's ending was Janeway's lowest moment as a character. She gets SOOOOO much better after that.
Agree. This series doesn't really get going (with a few exceptions, such as The 37s, S2 Ep1; or Janeway facing Fear -- played by Michael McKean of Better Call Saul fame-- finale of S2 Ep23) until UPN took over the series for season 3. UPN still used some scripts that came from CBS with the franchise, but after 7of9 was introduced in season 4, the series really took off.
Nah, I think her lowest moment is when she was about to sacrifice her crew because she refused to hand over the species 8472 captive to the Hirogen hunters and the crew only survived because Seven of Nine beamed the captive over without her permission, saving the crew.
She even wanted to do a suicide mission and pursue the Hirogen who outnumbered and outgunned her to get the prisoner back and would have ensured Voyagers destruction.
I think it's disingenuous of people to compare janeway to other captains and say she's a "bad captain" without factoring in that her very predicament is totally different. I'm stating the obvious but she's literally out there alone (cause she's alone) with no backup and having to make snap decisions in life or death situations. And you're still going "she's a bad captain". She clearly has her moments but she always comes out the other way (often with pearls of wisdom too), like any other multifaceted character really. If you separate the writing from the character, how can youjustify kira's actions, for example, and then turn around and condemn janeway's without looking at the bigger picture? You don't need to justify their actions, you just need to accept they're not black and white characters. Try and compare janeway, who's blowing up every other episode, to picard, who has his ass firmly planted in his command chair and a whole plethora of starfleet brass just behind him. I don't think whether janeway is a good captain or not is the question to be asked, cause she literally had to make do with what she got.
And I do think we have to acknowledge that she was a groundbreaking character for so many reasons, but that's another debate.
Disclaimer: this is a rant not directed at anybody and I love every character mentioned in this comment. Also I enjoy every trek series under the sun (apart from Enterprise but that doesn't count for reasons)
"I'm not here to dick around wrestling with irrelevant nerd questions.... I'm here to determine if Janeway is actually a good captian!"
Love it!
I always thought Janeway should have set up explosives, like Tuvok suggested, and then stay behind and detonate them herself. This way she could save her ship and crew, and sacrifice herself in good Star Trek tradition.
(Edited for grammer.)
but not spelling... :)
While I agree that Janeway made a horrible decision in the Pilot, there is an upside to it that was revealed later.
Had she not stranded her ship in the Delta Quadrant, then Species 8472 would have defeated the Borg and then gone to "cleanse the galaxy of all life." Which means that the Federation would have been wiped out as well.
Janeway saves the galaxy! She's the greatest. lol
Janeway was occasionally great. When the writers could decide what the hell they were doing with her. Kate Mulgrew is a damn fine actress but the writers couldn't get their acts together to give us a consistent character.
Voyager was my favorite installment of the Star Trek franchise. I thought each of the characters from Neelix to Janeway were fascinating. Captain Janeway was a strong leader with a great sense of humor.
Is Janeway a Great Captain?
Yes
The End
10:00 What about Piccard refusing to help entire species on the brink of extinction?
Yeah-OK....ignoring the bad screenplay of the pilot....we really have to say the following: Star Trek definitely needed strong, intelligent, useful WOMEN. And Voyager is full of that. I mean TSO can be ignored in that regard, and the same has to be said about TNG (even though I love the series)...we only have great men in there, but women are pretty and that's basically it (well...ok the Doctor...but well, sickbay is really not the focus of the show...boring...). DS9 has some interesting female charakters, but altogether they do not have THAT much responsibility...they're often really girlish....and they are flawed (which is interesting to watch) but there aren't role models of any kind on that station. Then we have Voyager....an BAAMMMM those women aboard, they really nail it (LOL...shouldn't say it like that)! Seven, B'Elanna, Janeway!!! The Fuck, I mean how cool are they when it comes to portraying female strength!!! Intelligence, cleverness, creativity, strength, faith AND sexappeal! That's what girls need to watch! That's pretty rare on Tele! And Voyager has it all. Voyager changed the Star Trek Universe with all its male fans into something more balanced: out of a sudden there were women adoring the show, young girls being shaped by Janeway and her team...That's what I like so much about the role: Janeway inspired me as a young girl to become a scientist and still preserve your female, warm and sexy qualities. YEAH! Thanks for that shit!!!!
There aren’t female role models on DS9? What about Kira? Or Keiko? Jadzia maybe less of a role model. But she definitely didn’t fit into a stereotypical female role and showed that women could be more complex than just masculine or feminine traits.
He was SUPPOSED to be Nick Locarno, but they would have royalties issues with the writer of the episode.
I think that Janeway gets more crap then she really deserves she has plenty of moments where shes a proven leader and she was formidable and competent. The actual problem with voyager is the cause of all the problems in general... bad, or at least sloppy, writing. If it wasn't for that Voyager probably would of been a lot better then it was and maybe Janeway would of gotten less shit then she gets... probably only slightly though. It doesn't matter how good the writing is there are people who are gonna hate her regardless lol.
Did you ignore that it would've taken hours for them to actually reset the array to send them back home, which was time they didn't actually have (TUVOK: Captain, I can access the system to send us back to Federation space, but it will take several hours to activate.). Or that the Caretaker was more concerned about the Kazon getting the technology of the array? And the idea that it's better for them to just use the array to get home doesn't put the Ocampa into a better situation either.
the doctor was the best character in voyager.
Agreed.
Absolutely! It was seeing Robert Picardo's performance on Voyager that prompted me to watch the entire Stargate franchise. And who can forget his banter back and forth with Andy Dick (EMH Mark II) in Season 4, Episode 14 "Message in a Bottle?"
With what Janeway accomplished getting her crew back I'd say she is the best fucking captain we've seen on any star trek show or episode period. She had her bad moments but of course she is only human and to be expected to have flaws.
Considering she got them stuck there in the 1st place, you could not be more wrong.
@@Captainkwirk ehhhh idk I beg to differ, cause like he said it was the fault in the writing to make Janeway have a bad decision plus usually what I seen from all the shows pilots aren't the strongest ep for Star trek which it's expected of from most the shows. Janeway like the other captains we seen isn't perfect and that's fine plus the show does improve massively over time. So I don't think the person commentating isn't in the wrong here 🖖
I mean, she's the worst WRITTEN Captain in all of Trek - It's pretty clear the writers constantly messed up or forgot what they'd already written and often just did shit without thinking it through.
Loved Voyager.. Janeway was an awesome Capt. She was able to unite two fractions and make them a team. No help from Starfleet and she still hold to the principals of Star Fleet
idk that she's the one that united the two crews necessarily. I think until pretty late into the show, there were divides between the crew. I think, as much as I hate to admit this, Chakotay may have actually been the one to do most of the work.
I like the flawed Janeway, much more interesting that she overreacted, and maybe bowed to pressure to get started for home because of that. That mistake caused her regret and drove several later decisions, definitely more interesting.
I always loved Voyager and Captain Janeway.
Just a reminder: Kate Mulgrew was NOT the originally-cast Capt Janeway. Geneviève Bujold was cast as Captain Nicole Janeway and filmed most of the pilot and, I believe, many scenes from season 1, before deciding a TV series was not for her.
She was an older actress (French Canadian) with an entirely different approach to the role and the original scripts were written with Bujold 's character in mind. Mulgrew had not been their first choice but was called to do the show and brought in after filming had already started. She often had to film shots that were then dropped in to scenes already completed.
We don't really see the Janeway written for Mulgrew in all her glory until season 3 (the first season after Voyager was acquired from CBS by UPN). This also explains the ridiculous wigs in season 1 and that ridiculous Victorian-era holonovel, Lambda One. Also, the lack of any physical action by Janeway -- which we see in later seasons. She has her moments in season 2, but season 3 is when the Mulgrew version of Janeway really takes off.
ruclips.net/video/8SIZcDWKyw0/видео.html&ab_channel=aobadger
ruclips.net/video/vFZHpCK1KhQ/видео.html&list=&ab_channel=jony26
It was more like a couple of days. She hated everything from the shooting schedule to the hair and makeup they had her in. www.startrek.com/article/star-trek-archive-the-fall-of-a-voyager-captain
So they just let her out of a binding contract????
I don't know what actually happened but I bet they could see it would have been disastrous for the series. Did you see that pilot clip :O ?!
I don't know how long Janeway would have remained a captain in Starfleet if she did things in the Alpha Quadrant the same way she did things in the Delta Quadrant. But in the Delta Quadrant they were alone with threats on most sides, and she was concerned most with surviving , keeping the ship running, keeping a functional community running, and getting her crew home.
"Voyager" has always been my favorite "Star Trek" series; Janeway was a real badass captain.
The same here !
It's not that complicated... as Emrys Ternal says below; destroying the array was a time sensitive situation. So, time bombs would not have worked. As far as "abandoning" the Ocampa to the Kazon; it is still a matter of following the Prime Directive. The array provided an unnatural imbalance to the natural order of things and the development of the region and the Ocampan homeworld. If Janeway stayed to hand hold them, she would have been violating the Prime Directive by actively interfering in the natural development of the Ocampa. The array was already interfering, but having it fall into Kazon hands would have been even worse. Destroying it and then leaving was about the only way to try to follow the Prime Directive. Besides; i honestly don't think the Kazon would really stand to gain that much from conquering the Ocampa without the technology of the Array anyway. Kazon were very much established as wanting advanced tech they don't have, which the Array certainly was.
A similar event happened in the TOS episode; The Apple. A supercomputer was controlling a primitive people and stunting their development. Kirk and crew destroyed it and at the end basically said to the people , who have just had everything they ever knew of how to live life destroyed, "Good luck to you! Now you get to have sex and die and stuff! Gotta go!".
Also; Tuvix was not a naturally occurring lifeform. He was a result of an accident that then "ended" the lives of two actual natural lifeforms. Tuvix was never supposed to exist. Also; if you still have issue with her decision to restore Tuvok and Neelix at the expense of Tuvix, just remember.. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Besides; in a future episode, Janeway terrified Fear itself. Janeway is awesome.
Yes! Good points.
Also, she seems more and more willing to break the Prime Directive while out there. Between accusations of it limiting her imagination and realizing that it's difficult to adhere to when you don't have the whole Federation to back you up with it...she was filled with doubt more and more. Think about it, this young new captain, daughter of an admiral, raised under the tutelage that the rules of the Federation, the guidance of Starfleet, are tops...and she's out there realizing that *applying* them only brings further strife to the people she's trying to get home. She's not a religious person, so that's the closest thing she has to realizing her god is flawed. It's interesting to see Kate Mulgrew acting out those thought processes...steeling herself up for the difficult choices she doesn't want weighing on anyone else's conscience. If, back home, they review the actions of Voyager, they will have NO ONE to blame but her. She'll accept that.
I thought it was 3 life forms Neelix, Tuvok and an orchid (hmmmm I will have to go watch it again)
Who 's to say what should and shouldn't exist. Evolution is a story of mutation. The whole idea behind the struggles of Cmd. Data was that, in order to be considered a life form (and a sentient one at that), you don't even need a biological base. When you feel and experience emotions and can think logically and be aware of that makes you a living being. So yeah, Janeway did kill Tuvix. No doubt about it.
Hey Guys,
I actually was a TNG only fan until someone convinced me to watch Voyager and I got hooked. I, unlike most of you in the comments really like Janeway as a Captain. Yes, she is idealistic and does not take shortcuts if the right way is the most ethical but I really think that having those ideals are important when you are the top dog. It forces the people following you to work harder and better simply because you are demanding the best of them. It is truly conceivable to me, that this is the main reason why the ship Voyager was so successful. I could be wrong but I really believe that.
In any event, I was very intrigued by the topic of this video and questioned my liking for her after watching you. I went back and watched the Pilot episodes. This is what I found, the reason why she destroyed the Array is that the Caretaker asked them to with his "dying breath" so to speak. When Janeway and Tuvok transported to the Array near the end of the two part series to configure the Array to send them back to the Alpha Quadrant, the Caretaker told her that he set a self destruct and it will go off in a few minutes. As it turned out, a Kazon ship collided with the Array and destroyed the self destruct mechanism. The Caretaker then told Janeway that the only way to save the Ocampa was through them destroying the Array. If the caretaker set the autodestruct, then he must have believed that he Ocampa were seriously better off with no help rather than the chance of the Kazon annihilating them. At this point also, it would become a Prime directive issue/interference issue if Voyager had tried to help the Ocampa after destroying the Array since that was not a part of his request. If Voyager had decided independently to destroy the Array on their own initiative then their help would have been warranted. However, they simply finished the job that the caretaker started and failed to complete.
I would love to hear your opinions about this.
This is my second time watching this, and I agree with you on the bad writing. The real tragedy is, the fix is super-simple: just remove the line about Tuvok figuring out the array. Have him say he _might_ be able to figure it out, given some time. Then Janeway has a perfectly good reason to blow up the array; she could even try to hold it for a while, which threatens to start a pitched battle with the kayzon, pitting her desire to send her crew home against the knowledge that every minute she stays costs more kayzon lives (and probably at least a few crew lives as well). Could have been a really great scene where a captain makes a much more _rational_ sacrifice, given there's no guarantee that Tuvok could _ever_ work the array, and we see a captain who is reluctant to shed blood even in self-defense if retreat is a viable option. Then it could still haunt her "what if I'd given Tuvok more time? Could I have bought more time without wasting more lives?" Oh well. C'est la vis
The problem with your writing proposal, is that you are trying to make the episode story more tidy. But is _Star Trek_ really meant to always be so tidy?
Of course Tuvok figured out the array. Because he is just too smart and too logical. Why wouldn't he figure it out? He is a Vulcan.
IMO she’s the best possible captain in the worst situation, like her and voyager are all alone with no backup or protection from the fleet. She can’t afford to be philosophical like Picard or adventurous like Kirk or even diplomatic (lol) like Sisko . Voyager simultaneous has to be in constant survival mode AND manage to stand for the ideals of star trek in an unknown world
My general feeling toward Voyager is this: great ideas, variable execution. Her character was believable, in-universe. I think the character was written to be the kind of daughter that Kirk would have had, and Kate was overall great with the material. Janeway was almost a woman out of time.
How did you think that Janeway was a terrible captain? I thought she was a pretty awesome captain. Second only to Picard. The show, Voyager, wasn't that great, but Janeway was an awesome captain. Pretty bad-ass, too.
Yes, there are plot holes, but that shouldn't be held against the character over-all. The only strike I have against her is that she's too stubborn.
I'm pretty sure that she didn't just decide to destroy the Array to keep the Kazon away from it. They were under attack and the Kazon's objective was to take the Array. Voyager wasn't strong enough to win and if the battle continued, Voyager would have been destroyed and the Array would have been taken anyway. So she destroyed the Array, preventing the Kazon from using its technology. As I said, she had no other choice; if she retreated, she'd have no way to take the Array back from the Kazon and had she continue to fight, the Kazon would have destroyed Voyager and taken the Array. In the end, Voyager had no way to use the Array for themselves because of the Kazon, so it boiled down to the choice that prevented the Kazon from using it.
Like he said, time. Bomb. Use the array, then set the bomb to go off one second later. There, best of both worlds.
A better solution is obey the Prime Directive and don't interfere in the Kazon and Ocampa's affairs. Had she gone home and left the array to Kazon they more than likely would have destroyed themselves with it instead of the Ocampa. Because Janeway destroyed the array the Kazon were definitely still a round to enslave the Ocampa sometime around season 5 when their power ran out and they were forced to the surface.
So for sure her breaking Star Fleet's highest law did nothing to help the Ocampa in the long term, but she caused major political disruption throughout the delta quadrant and got lot of her crew killed in the process.
+THX 1138, that ignores that they were drawn into the conflict and the Caretaker requested that they destroy the array on his behalf. +Shanbo26, The Caretaker himself said he wasn't strong enough to send them home, I'm curious as to how that would've worked without him.
Voyager was always my favorite Star trek show. The care taker array would've been used to harm many other planets and people.
To explain "Tom Paris": You got to love the lengths a show will go through to not pay royalties to the original writer.
I was really hoping this was going to go into the entire series. There are plenty of arguments for and against Janeway being a good captain throughout the show. I'm curious as to why you decided to only discuss the pilot.
TBF, the first episode of TNG (IMO the best series) has Troi having an orgasm on the bridge while Picard has to have his hand held by Q to avoid destroying humanity by shooting the crystalline entity. You have to just cut off the first season or two when evaluating a Star Trek series.
AGREE. I think each series has the most number of cringe worthy episodes the first season.
I think that analyzing only one of the very many exploits of Janeway is kind of a really crummy way of figuring out if she's a great captain. For example, I thought this video was shittier than all your other ones and that your still being biased [as you spent a good chunk of it only reviewing one episode, and displaying your bias] but, all your other episodes seem rather thoughtful and intelligent. If I had to review whether Steve Shives reviews are good or bad, and only focused on this one single episode of yours, I think we'd both agree that it's quite unfair.
P.S.
I can write a 20+ analysis of Captain Janeway and explain why she was more badass than all of the other captains even if you united all of their deeds into a single entity, maybe that might help? :P
8:40 they where in active combat with the Kazan they did not have time to set charges or anything like that. And thing about protecting the Ocompa is just not letting a violent race get advanced technology not a desire to Shepard them forever. I just disagree completely with your assessment honestly.
Literally that. Kazan be like Ocompa gone. Ok we will settle down and knit quilts 🙃.
Capt Janeway is a badass and has to make many moral decisions for situations that aren't her fault. Kate is perfect for this role and makes the character work.
Of course she is badass! She got assimilated by choice.
The caretakers station is in Star Trek a extremely powerful device that even when used for relative good could kidnap ships a quadrant away. Yet at the same time it appeared to be easy to us as it took no time to figure out they could use it to get back home.
Weaponized this would be catastrophic for basically the galaxy.
The technology of the foes voyagers is an unknown at the time, to entrust the galaxy on a time bomb would therefore be just as risky.
Lastly, developing a species that has no warp technology would be in violation of the prime directive.
Blowing up the station was the best that could be done…
Why even destroy the array at all? If Tuvok had control over it and knew how to use it they could have used it as a defensive weapon. Just teleport any approaching kazon ships to a random point in the galaxy. Voyager could hang around for a while, teach the Ocampa how to use it to defend themselves and then have them send the ship home. Job done.
Then that’s making The Kazon another species problem and that’s not how Starfleet do things
She never forgot about stranding her crew. This is evident by the many times in the show it's seen to haunt her.
your overlooking that the Ocompa were cut off behind the caretakers shields, Janeway had no way to help them or even communicate with them. Any action she could have taken would have only ultimately hurt the Ocompa.
I recently got hooked with the Star Trek franchise.. I watched TNG, the original, and im currently on Voyager.. I honestly believe Voyager is underrated.. It's just my opinion.
Some DS9 fans think, that it was cancelled because of voyager. Which is funny, because TNG fans thought exactly the same about ds9
Captain Janeway perhaps did a better job, than most bosses of most jobs. She protected her crew, she was like a caring mother, she managed to form a few unlikely truces, while most bosses hardly even want to be bothered by their employee's personal problems.
If you thought the writing was bad in Voyager, check out the first season of TNG. Not only is the writing facepalm worthy, the acting and costumes don't help (I keep replaying the "Shut up Wesley" scene in my head every time I see Wesley). The first season is truly horrendous. But it gets much better (after Riker gets a beard). I think every show takes a few episodes to really get their feet under them.
Next take an episode from the middle of the series and see if Janeway has matured as a captain or not.
Macrophage - Janeway's got a pulse rifle 😎
I see Janeway as mostly a missed opportunity. Kate Mulgrew is a great actress, and she could've done SO MUCH MORE if the show had had any decent writing. I think she did the best job she could with the shitty writing we got.
Apparently Kate Mulgrew can be an " Awkward to Deal with " person .
I think Robert Beltran , the Overlooked character of Chakotay , is a Far superior Actor .
And Ethan Whatsisname . Neelix . Great character . Annoying ? NO ! Noticeable .
I think, Janeway just had to make some very tough decisions. That doesn't make her a bad captain.
The main problem with Janeway was the various writers seemed to have very different ideas of who she was and what drove her. It led to situations where she'd argue one way in one episode and the complete opposite in another and is considered to be right both times. This wasn't the result of character development and a changed viewpoint. It was random. As a result, she seemed insane.
... this makes so much sense. When I (tried) to re-watch Voyager all the way through again after college, I was confused with Janeway's character (along with copious other reasons). The notion that the writers didn't agree on what drives a character, how and why they make decisions makes sense.... but instead, they just acted the way the plot needed them to act.
It is exactly this. Unfortunately some folks fall back to the 'you hate her because she is a woman' which is preposterous(especially when we all love Belana, the hard nosed fuck you im in charge Chief Engineer) and the conversation goes away. She was badly written, end of story. That doe's not excuse her(she is an awful captain as written/portrayed in the show) but it does help explain it.
I like Voyager better than Enterprise and DS9 because Voyager actually had characters I liked: the hologram Doctor, Janeway, Tuvok, Seven of Nine. In fact, after they got rid of Kes, even Neelix was okay. The only character I liked in Enterprise was T'Pol though Phlox was okay. In DS9, I liked Odo in season 1, but after that season Quark was the only character I liked until they brought Worf into the series. And I don't like Quark much at all. So the only character I really liked in DS9 was from TNG.
VeganVorarephile I liked Flox in Enterprise. Once you got over the obvious Neelix clone apparance, his dry humour and wit actually were entertaining.
Nah, Archer was the worst captain. I can never get over the episode of Enterprise when the Captain spends his time with the alien captain, while his Engineer meets the aliens' sex slave, whom later begs the crew for asylum from being a sex slave. Archer refuses, the slave commits suicide, and somehow this is the Engineer's fault.