Thanks man! I hope not, as I'd very much say the same :D Likewise, it was a pleasure and I'm looking forward to both tomorrow's video and future chats!
I don’t know if I am qualified to say that somebody or something is brilliant, but I can say that I really enjoyed it and have learned a whole lot. You both said a great many things that I had never occurred to me.
@@simpletomash We kinda adopt/acknowledge surrounding ppl's values instead so it must get to the point one ENTP realize that they don't really have their own opinion/value/.. on that one topic
For me, Fi allows me to actively evaulate my feelings (and the feelings of other people) - and be able to take a step back from them; "I am feeling this right now, but that is only because this and this -and that should not 'harm' the other person". In my head it sort of corresponds to being able to acknowledge my ego complexes and disregard it in the moment (take it out of the equation). In that sense, Fi enables me to be more 'objective' in the evaluation of people - not to be clouded by my own feelings or ego (to an extent - I am not enlightened (yet 😉)) /Infp
By the 12 minute mark I was already like...wow I can't imagine struggling with the Fi Si stuff, I do it so easily. The differences in people is truly facinating. I easily tie my inner emotions to my Si experience all the time. I will say though, when I started my journey I thought the same thing about Fe - that it was just superficial and not deep or authentic enough. It also confused me but you both know I always say that lol. I will carry on watching now.
@@CognitivePersonality otherworldly is a good way to describe it. The thought of being detached at all from my emotions is very foreign to me. I wish I was detached from a 45 minute presentation I have to do today though lol. I'll finish watching this when I get home :)
This was excellent especially for someone who misses "NT Support". I love when the theoretical explanations are applied to someone's personal experience. I struggle with that.
Cognitive Personality Theory well, i dont usually need to actively monitor it, unless im in a heightened emotional state and i realize that my emotions are not appropriate for the situation
Cool interview! Fi is a really interesting function. Even as a tertiary Fi it means a lot to me. I am fiercely identity independent haha. I like the interview type videos, they are fun every once and awhile.
Yeah I think the occasional video like this is refreshing :) Ahh yes, I posit convergent auxiliary Fi users such as yourself have an equally powerful, but nonetheless different, utilisation and relationship with this function.
LOVED this video, guys-- thank you both! --> I [an INFJ] definitely find it easiest to access feeling (to me, Fe and Fi are ultimately both feeling) through external manifestations of something I relate to personally (even if I don't know exactly why). So, I'll watch a movie, listen to a song, etc. that I feel resonates with something inside me. To me, this feels like impersonal, yet emotional on a "we're all human" level, and I am too(!)... So, it seems to me that the Fe needs are met, then the Fi "realizations"/"affirmations" happen in Fe's wake. ~ And the other access point for me is what you were referencing, Harry, with bypassing Ti entirely (due to mental/emotional/or physical fatigue, impasse point in clear perception at the moment, etc.) and going into this "melancholia" of Ni/Fi that feels like a dream, in many ways... Ni/Ti is me in my head, but feels sharp. Ni/Fi is me in my head, but blurry (perception/focus-wise) Thanks again!!! ^_^ --Matt
I love the Cognitive Personality Theory channel, but something about this discussion about Fi makes me laugh a little bit. As an Fi user (INFP), it seems to me that people into typology theory have built up an enormous number of false conclusions about what Fi actually is...and thus, there have developed a lot of prejudices about Fi users that are truly unfair. But if we are really looking at Fi as the polar antagonist of Ti, I think that we need to simply look at that polarity as simply the difference between creative input vs. critical feedback. Both are forms of commentary, both are forms of observation about the world. Both are, in essence, attempting to form a thesis or a hypothesis about the world, and both have valuable contributions to give towards that end. Fi is synthesizing, and Ti is breaking things down. But both are necessary sides of the same coin. To dismiss Fi is to dismiss essential aspects of consciousness, and frankly, it's quite dangerous. Now of course we won't expect INFP's and ENTP's to ever get along particularly well...but both are bringing out necessary information and commentary that leads to the progress of the species. It's simply that Ti users (perhaps out of pride) have extreme difficulty in acknowledging the validity of the Fi approach, even if a world without Fi would ultimately be a world that could not function. Fi is just as much of a tactical function as it is an emotional function--it is not just some kind of pointless mysteriousness or over-sentimentality. If you are even going to discuss the genius of the INTJ personality type, one must realize that tertiary Fi is the very thing that makes them able to create a coherent hypothesis...otherwise they would just be all information gathering and no synthesis. To suggest that Fi users are not deep or careful thinkers is one of the most egregious statements in all of typology, yet it is consistently one that one is likely to hear the most. Furthermore, it seems to me that people who are particularly poor with Fi (AKA ExTP's) don't really have much they can do in order to come to a more correct understanding of what it is, or how it manifests. Being in the Ti frame, one is in a constant state of deconstructive analysis. To be in a fully Fi frame, one is making observations about the world in a very unhurried and imaginative way. So my suggestion to Ti users who feel the need to 'abuse' Fi users for being dumb...is to consider that Fi users are simply providing the peripheral, observational information that they are missing when they are logically deconstructing something. You can't be constantly in a mode of focused deconstruction and also fully pay attention to the nuance of what is going on around you. You can't be tearing things down and simultaneously be constructing a narrative. Both sides of the (Ti--Fi) polarity should be thankful for what the other side provides, rather than claiming the other side of the polarity is totally invalid.
I totally agree with you! This conversation was very lighthearted in this sense, with both myself and Jeffrey entertainingn a fascination with a function neither of us experiences as a central focal point. Your points are excellent - in my latest video I explore the essential role Fi plays in existential reconciliation and true knowledge :)
So hard to understand the need to express emotion to understand them except that i need to do that with my logic. It sounds like a frustrating process to be unable to do so internally
AAAAH! this is amazing! i relate a lot to this! i actually have started the "crying routine" though its been more a byproduct from trying to access my Fi through journaling - i suppose one can say its accessing Fi through Si. writing about past experiences allows me to access the emotions i have buried (or rather at the time thought i didnt have). i dont cry easily or often as my own emotions are generally something that i choose to 'switch off' even if they are justified or logical because i dont want them to interfere with my decision making or with my understanding of whatever core issue im addressing. also, writing it down makes it more concrete, since my emotions tend to be rather nebulous and difficult to describe unless they are extreme and then too they're still basic like 'angry' 'sad' 'happy' 'playful' ahahha! though the writing is multi-faceted, in that not only am i recording past events and how they made/make me feel, but also where i used to be as a person, where i am now and where i want to be, because life has an uncanny way of directing a person in a completely different direction than one intended and so its important to keep reassessing, looking at the opportunities that *are* available and how to use them best to ones advantage towards meeting those dreams and future goals - or even entirely reworking/evolving them. im not a sentimental person and i generally go with the flow of what everyone wants and that has meant that ive never developed a clear view of who I am and what I like as opposed to what everyone else wants or likes. however i have come to the conclusion that nobody can know you better than you know yourself and so in order to achieve self understanding when faced with a decision where im inclined to do what everyone else wants, i ask myself "do i like this? do i want this? do i actually enjoy this? does this *feel* right to *me*?" without forcing myself to have a reason for my preference. Usually i already know the answer but keep wanting the input from others, which is not necessarily a good thing. of course, occasionally my preference is contrary to everyone else's and with this comes the fear of rejection ahahaha it sounds so silly but its true. for someone keyed up to maintain social harmony, being the salmon that swims upstream can be a bit difficult. so technically i've started following the advice i keep on giving everyone else to be true to themselves. though, at the same time, i have found that while there may be initial backlash, people eventually come around. I relate a lot to what Jeffrey says. i started out at a very young age with music as a means to connect with other people as well as to release all the emotions i didnt understand. for most of my childhood i felt detached from my physical self and it has been a long journey reconnecting and 'taking charge' of myself again in order to impact the world more in an active instead of reactive manner. my need to create has been a driving force - the times that i ignored it due to circumstances caused me such depression i literally felt like dying and so channeled this into writing. though, as Jeffrey says, the idea of creating something personal and then sharing it with the world is terrifying because what if people hate it? though at the same time it might help so many people too, so its a catch 22. at the same time i keep on thinking 'just do it' because otherwise when i no longer have the opportunity to share what i've created there will only be regret. thank you for the video! really it was very interesting! loved the theory and the viewpoints from infj and entp
Awesome essay - thank you! ;) I really relate to your using music as a medium for emotional connection - I'm not sure where I would be if I didn't find guitar all those years ago. Great insights!!
Gosh. When Jeffrey talked about the disconnect from the body…”it’s like being in a vehicle where you don’t fully understand the controls”…that hit so close to him for me. There have been many times where I’ve wished I could be a purely mental being and explore possibilities of everything without being tethered to things like…eating, sleeping, pooping, and just the general cleanup and maintenance of this weird body of mine. It can be frustrating when I’m highly engaged in something. ENFP here. :)
As a (most likely) INFP (Fi dom), this was an entertaining yet strange conversation to follow. For me, a value-based framework of decision making is taken for granted. Its strange to see others not grasping what Fi really is. It has nothing to do with emotions, but it can triggers strong emotions. But lets speak about emotions. Emotions are easy to be triggered. There are 4 basic emotions and everything is made from a combination of them. Joy, Sadness, Anger, Fear. Have someone cross your boundaries (like stealing or destroying your computer) and it will make you feel angry. Experience a great sense of disconnect (like a loss of someone or even yourself) and it will cause you sadness, tears or depression. Joy: have something that excites you. Fear: put the unknown or a threat in front of you (a tiger, or whatever serves that purpose). Yes, it is true. Emotions are linked to memories. Still as I said, a value-based decision making framework has nothing to do with emotions. Its actually similar to Ti, just replace logic with value-attribution. Value can be ethical (what feels right), what feels good (emotionally like excitement or sensed within the body), it could logic (linked to Te), etc. As an INFP I struggle with my unconscious functions too, especially Ti, Fe, Se. The dominant counterpart, Fe is easy for me to understand but hard to practice, as Fi is dominant. The dominant Fi also dips easily into Ti (but somewhat difficult to stay there). The counterpart of my tertiary Si, which is Se, is harder to hold, it can be done by for a few minutes like doing sports (but body often reverts back to introspective sensing or feeling).
And heads up for your comment about the need for INFPs to add 5% extra energy and publish that poetry or writing, which we use to process emotions. Much appreciated advice!
We thought it would be interesting to discuss Fi from the perspective of our own types as we both have the function in an oftentimes unconscious position, yet manifesting in a different manner :) That being said, the contrast between such an unconscious Fi and, say, a dominant Fi would be also very interesting! I do have collabs with two Fi users filmed and in the editing pipeline, however :)
Wow! I totally relate to the "floodgate" metaphor... As an ENTP it is exactly what Jeffrey said... At younger age I did use to access my Fi through negative events which caused me anxiety in some way... For example I always seemed like, atleast to other kids, somewhat aloof and while I was not exactly a class clown but I do heavily relate to that "word"... And this caused me... Basically I figured that my close friends didn't care about me as in "ME"... It was from their POV(subconsciously) I think like... There's this guy, he creates fun but he's not too strict about his boundaries or his values (bcuz I didn't have that strong Fi, let alone having that much assertion to atleast be open about it)... As a result I was often taken as somewhat expandible subconsciously by them... Which later through some events I began to understand... And this understanding brings me this "awkward uneasy"ness... Because I really can't blame them can I? It is how I am perceived from the outside and it's probably not going to change. But yeah, it does feel like a revelation whenever I tap into these thoughts... So to me... For a good amount of time I used to think Fi as something that's really really desirable (in contrast to how Jeffery said he used to look at it) but also I have this understanding that let's say... I don't have the right tools to access my Fi like an INFP, with that much precision and solid-ness... So internally I still think that atleast for me... Trying to understand my Fi values is a waste of time because although highly desire that function and the cohesion that it brings to the table... I don't think I'll be able to let's say... Stick to those values in the way I want.
Hey guys, Great conversation. There's so much to take from what you both shared! The main struggle for me with values was figuring them out while trying to understand how others and the world works. It became more complex when I was observing others and how they deal with their environment, especially since I picked up on what they value easily. It ultimately confused me more on how to know what I value. The idea that others have the answer to what's valuable, what's right or wrong, or how to act, etc. Though, I acted sometimes on values that I didn't know I had, like defending my friend from a group of bullies when we were 7 from an inner decision that it was harmful to my friend. There was already a set of inner values but I didn't understand what they are yet. Since I grew up in a certain belief system, I took them on, though as a teen I started to try to understand logically why would certain values exist, how they affect us, and what's their utility. I lacked a lot of knowledge on that front, so it took years for me to find answers, until it made sense to me logically the set of values I follow have reasons to exist that aim to keep me and others in a healthy state. My struggle with Fi other than the above is the internal mechanism that kept altering me I'm only focusing on what others value and helping them attain it, it usually comes in a feeling of resentment, annoyance or frustration. I realize then that I've neglected myself enough, haha. Taking into consideration that the psyche is a complex system with several aspects, and that several things are happening at the same time, it's possible through our own experience to develop a healthy, aligned value system in our own way and at our own pace. With regard to accessing Ne, I used to think for the longest time that there's usually a best way of going forward, part of me still does as a Ni dominant. Though at university, I realized that I was by default not recognizing there are different ways to address things and it might yield different possibilities. I start from the context I'm looking at, and have awareness not to disregard possibilities and to keep them in mind. Obviously, the flexibility of how many I could realize is less than a person who uses Ne more constantly and consciously. To access aspects of Ni, after generating possibilities, choose one or two that will give the best results possible in a given situation (depends on the results you're looking for, and if your evaluating them based on logic or value or both). Looking forward to new content! Best regards.
Amazing comment, thanks Zeinab! I can certainly relate to having a set of inner values that take time to understand on a logical-utility level and I'm glad you eventually made that reconciliation between Thinking and Feeling. Yes, it can certainly be difficult to balance the values of others with the values of the self. Developing such a value system, as well as chipping away at the values that impede this allignment, can certainly take time but, much as with the rest of individuation, it can very much be a lifelong journey! I'm also becoming increasingly mindful of the multi-faceted approach to finding solutions, and as you say this gives Ni even more options to choose from! And choose it shall ;) Cheers!
He's a super cool guy - it's great to be able to film a genuinely enjoyable conversation and share it with others. I hope people enjoy the collab as much as we did! Cheers for the comment :)
Joshua L does a very fair job of describing Fi. Worth checking out. It is the most human function, it gives human beings a purpose of existing rather than simply being machine cogs.
ENTP here. While using Fe and Si seems effective to bring emotions into our present moment (as much as that can be done) I argue that Se is better suited for the task. Heres how and why. For example, I’m an ENTP who has studied classical acting and graduated from a conservatory considered to be the best in the English speaking world. Regardless of your discipline, the school has musicians, dancers, singers and actors practice the work of F. M. Alexander. I learned and practiced through The Alexander Technique how to better sense my internal and external physical world simultaneously.. I learned that my emotions (and creativity/inspiration) would more easily bubble up from deep within my body if it remained free of internal tension. Surely, using Fe and watching a film or listening to music could easily evoke tears and my emotions yet, I believe there is a marked difference in using Se + Ne over Si + Fe. The former is a physical exploration and the latter takes place in the mind alone leading to an experience in the body. I am a subscriber to each of your channels. Thank you for this video!
Amazing contribution! I agree the Se-Te employment (the concrete objective such as breathing and postural exercises) allows axial fluidity with Ni-Fi (holistic overview of emotional state) while also grounding oneself in the here and now as an added bonus!
Harry: "where do you see yourself in 5 years (with fi)?" Jeffrey: 😶 "whoaaaa" LOL. Okay but really, this chat was phenomenal! Discussing fi as having these limbic and gut responses is spot on! I've also been thinking lately about how to access the functions and how I've personally noticed myself stretching different muscles. For example, I find that its helpful for me to engage Ni if I look at what I'm currently doing. What do I have going on right now? What have I placed in my life? What am I trying to set myself up for? I can sometimes be oblivious to those things...it feels like my Ni compass is buried underneath me. Anyway, great vid again, loved the conversation and chemistry. -Hillary
Ahaha I launched that one out of nowhere! Thanks Hillary - I've yet to properly check out your channel but I remember watching your own collab with Jeffrey and thought it was great! Function access is something I'm extremely passionate about myself, and as you say it can often be a counter-intuitive approach of looking towards a function's natural opposite (Se in this instance) and using the axis for activation of two extremes :) INFPs so often have a great Ni (particularly as adjoined to Ti) but you're right in that this vision-forming tends to be a struggle, partially because it involves choosing from all the possible options! Cheers for commenting! -Harry
I remember when I was 5 the teacher took the class to the school yard to pull the weeds, .. but i refused... I was upset (and crying) because i didn't understand why some plants had the right to live and others no… and frustrated, because nobody else really cared but me and everyone did what the teacher said! 😅 it seemed so clearly unfair to me... 😒 Is this an example of FI? 🤔
I am guessing that the trickster function may also be the savior of the personality. A problem of having a strong 1st/2nd function is that we equate the ego with ourselves. The 7th function tricks us out of this identification, suggesting that we identify with the Self, instead. As an ENTP, I am great at having profound conversations. I have been having them all my life, yet something was always missing. No matter how deep, and deeply metaphysical, the conversations were, they somehow seemed superficial to me. They seemed to carry a promise of something that I did not have. I came to see that something was missing in all the conversations because they did not fully engage my FI. The conversations were deeply stimulating, but they did not offer the consummation that a deeper way of feeling might offer. I am guessing that the 7th function is the “missing piece” in the personality, and that, without it, we are still treading the surface somehow, no matter how deep our interactions may be. In the soul’s quest for love, we look for our missing piece. When the personality is less developed, we might even develop a fantasy or dream of what that missing piece might be, and we assume that it is an intuition of our ultimate beloved. We may carry this “archetype” as a standard against which all human beings fall short. Or, we may project this archetype on other persons and fall in love with them for that reason. Actually developing the missing (7th) function helps us to reclaim it as a lost part of ourselves so that we don’t need to look for it elsewhere. I see now that my FI was trying to talk to me through the deep conversations. When I left the conversations and listened for the FI directly, a great deal changed in my life. I feel a wholeness and groundedness that I did not feel earlier. This is my experience with a “trickster” FI. I am wondering if something similar is true for people who have other trickster functions. What do you think?
@@silhouetta37 I don’t think we have to obey because as human beings we are in charge. A function isn’t a person, a function is a capability. We, though, are persons. When a function presents information to us, we can listen and consider and use discernment about how we might want to implement the function’s point of view. We are not our functions any more than we are our arms and legs, IMO. We are human beings (whatever that’s may mean) and out functions are not. Discovering more about a more hidden function might be like finding a gold coin in the road. The coin is an opportunity, but it does not get to tell you how to spend it. You are the one who gets to decide how to use it in a way that might be of the most benefit to you.
I’m not sure of my type yet but been trying to connect with Fi this week. Realised that when asked “what do you want/value?” my response is to either a) basically mirror back what you want, or b) consult my entire conception of the world over several weeks and deduce what I *should* want. I see my own desires basically as one pretty insignificant single data point in the context of “what does the whole world want/need?” so don’t pay it much attention. Unfortunately, recent experience has revealed that when I go to actually pursue my logical ideals actively in the world... it becomes quite important to have a relationship with the captain of your own ship! To be familiar with how she likes to behave, what I can expect her to do when I’m outside of my preferred situation of responding to other people’s requirements... Because it turns out she can really dig her toes in, if she doesn’t feel like doing what makes sense. Have just quit my idealistically dream job because I couldn’t wrangle her. She may not ultimately ‘matter’ more than anyone else, but it turns out she has to matter to me. Pondering this while listening to Jung exploring and personifying his own subconscious, I realised that it might help to picture this Self as an externalised character who I need to learn to adapt to, the same as I adapt to everyone else as if they were absolutes. At the moment she’s a little pixie thing on my shoulder. Or sometimes the stubborn lower half of a rather comically disharmonious centaur... I’m going to start trying to pay attention to what she wants, let her take the lead sometimes and find out for herself where that leads and gain some muscle and wisdom - instead of being just an occasional petulant child that only shows up to stop me from obeying my own logic. Feel like this must sound utterly crazy to anyone with strong Fi!
Do you think it's correct to say that the Fi-Te mode is when you see the self as a subject and others as objects, while Fe-Ti is when you see the self as an object and others as subjects? We can all obviously flip the equation, and do so all the time, but I guess we all have a default mode. My theory is that strong Fi comes from high volume output by the pro-personal emotions (strong connection with own body, possibly high disgust and lust circuits? high sense of violation when personal boundaries are crossed, rage circuits directed at threats to the self, shame in connection with loss of dignity - all leading to very clear delineation of where the self ends and the world begins), while Fe has all of these dialled down in relation to the self, and gets high output from the pro-social emotions (high care/cathexis response, possibly high trust? high innate distress when others suffer, high anxiety when out of step with the group, high sense of violation when the group/others are under threat, rage directed at threats to the group/others, personal shame in connection with social failure - all leading to a more diffuse and malleable sense of self with unclear boundaries). Makes sense for nature to produce variation in these settings across the population. A social species benefits from having a mix of people who are naturally communal minded, and people who can look at the community more objectively, and can embody drive and change.
I love that! I would say there is some truth here, as Fi-Te certainly tends to see others as object. I would say my Ti sees itself as an object and all Feeling as subject :) I appreciate your pro-personal/pro-social distinction! I would say this becomes tricky when dip functions are introduced, as Fi dominants and Fe authorities (e.g. INFJs) can experience both rather strongly.
My experience of introverted feeling (I’m INFP) is that it is a maelstrom. It’s exhausting. It’s really useful for artistic pursuits, but aside from that it’s kind of a burden. I would like to know if you get a sense of that when you try to access introverted feeling. Is it like opening a door and seeing a tornado outside?
Yes, I imagine it would be! In some ways it's a blessing to be detached, on a conscious level, from my emotions so often - but on the other hand, this lack of awareness can very much catch me off guard sometimes. If I leave it too long without Fi dialogue, then yes it is very much akin to a tornado! Usually, though, it's more akin a vast galaxy of unnamed solar systems :)
@@CognitivePersonality so much. And this is why I repress Fi although I know I shouldn't. But it can be so overwhelming. Crying : I can't cry. If I cry I'm in a total panic mode. I get terrible headaches, I am tired for the rest of the day, but that's also probably because I have CPTSD. And when I'm too happy, I get hypoglycemia ! Mentally I feel like I am not afraid of emotions, emotions are like thoughts, they are not you, just a part of you. But my body seems to disagree (and that sucks).
Apparently, you have yet to explore the vast extent of your (Fi). If you're restricting (Fi) to arts, then you're underestimating it a great deal. Aside from the artistic perspective, Fi users have a natural potential to be great philosophers and theorists, they are the best at understanding the human emotional realm and putting oneself at other people's shoes. And let's not forget that "Isabel myers briggs" who was an INFP is the creator of MBTI
Two questions: You said FI is more of an experience then a perspective is that true for someone like me an INFP? How would an INFP go about developing FE?
One way in which I (an ENTP) access my less conscious functions is to remember that they WANT to communicate with me, and then to wait to hear what they have to say. They are not inert items of buried treasure but living entities whose job is to express and serve the Self. If you have a child and ignore them, belittle them, or continually compare them unfavorably to their brothers and sisters, that child is going either to withdraw (go unconscious), or try to get your attention by getting in your way (nemesis), proving you wrong (critic), playing jokes and tricks on you (trickster), or, out of pure desperation, becoming very destructive (demon). The same child, growing up in an atmosphere of love, respect, appreciation, and even celebration, will likely grow and become a vital, contributing citizen in the world. Instead of pursuing the hidden functions, I accept as a premise and an honor that they want to talk to me and that, if I only listen, they will become my devoted servants and friends. (For this reason, I also love feelings like envious, disgusted, covetous, etc., as they are all our teachers.) A classic question in psychoanalytic circles is why Jungian patients have “Jungian” dreams, Freudian patients have “Freudian” dreams, Adlerian patients have “Adlerian” dreams, etc. My personal answer is that the “unconscious” wants to much to communicate with us that it will use any language that we agree to as a means for accomplishing that. The unconscious functions will also speak to us, willingly, if we only give them space and listen without judgment. I have learned from my FI trickster that it’s main concern is universal love and also that it feels enormous pain whenever I hurt another person or myself. It feels tenderly and delicately toward others in a way that I do not ordinarily feel. When I let it speak, it speaks with great benignity. My FI trickster joins with my FE child in understanding that we are all on a journey that we don’t understand, and that we can at least bring each other a little fun and joy, offer each other a little comfort, and include all of each other. I have learned from my SE demon that it is OK for me to be quiet, to be ignorant (not to know anything), and how to be present without judging when dark feelings from the past emerge. It is like the earth, willing to accept me without judgment. It has taught me the lesson of receptivity. For a long time, my inferior Si remembered only the things that hurt me; now it is remembering the events that served and nourished me as well.
I love your words on dreams! It does seem natural for the unconscious to use a mode of communication that we are most familiar with here. In many senses it is this function any self-improvement oriented individual will value the most, and can often feel like the final point of full integration.
Wow! I feel intrigued by your remark, “the final point of full integration.” How would anybody know that they had achieved that? I am guessing that the state of integration comes and goes for a long period of time until it finally settles in. Even then, some continuing disintegration is probably inevitable, as life is always moving. I am thinking that the point is to become increasingly skillful at allowing for disintegration in response to the challenges of life and, then, at finding new ways to re-integrate. In other words, we get better, and faster, at disintegrating and re-integrating and incorporating that twofold process into the work of growing.
Such great comments, Barbara; I relate to so much of this! Really nice to hear someone else express it, and to see the journey you've been on with this. Hope we can all keep learning and experimenting!
I love ti to fi aspect he said. I find it rather true that I can understand fi through ti in way. When I try to figure out if I like something or how I feel about something I usually have a list full of pros or cons of that thing in my head. But other than I'm very fi blind, probably more than other entps. Like people used to ask me how I was doing and I was just like: I don't know. Or making judgements if I like someone or not. Fi users adpecially are so quick to make judgements about that and I'm just sitting here being like: how can you judge someone after 5 minutes. However I do the same as in dipping into that through si as I later remember how fun or exciting this or that conversation was. Or I access through ti as I see people more so as structures or concepts with various sides and aspects to them and I weigh them out in order to make a judgement about someone. Concerning values I'm actually more closer to you. But kind of a mix of you and Jeffrey. Inititally I value understanding (I don't like the term truth as I don't believe there is an totally objective truth as you only ever are able to understand the univirse from your personal subjective human senses). However I always look for what makes sense for humanity and for that I usually see different historical or philosphical connection in order to form ideas and opinions what may work in the current political climate and what is the best for entire humanity. I actually talked about it with my ethics teacher when talking about kant (have a kind of kantish view as well). I like to insert an example: the develoapment of africa would be huge advantage of the people living there however developing industry may lead to more Co² emissions which can cause more damage due to climate change for entire humanity even though a large group may benefit from that. And this is usually how I approach things. I first try to understand the logic of multiple perspectives conncect those perspectives and weigh them to then hopefully come to possible ideas what be the most benefitital for humanity as current state. So as I don't follow any ideolgy or have strong values concerning that I'm rarely ever offended, especially since I also see and seek to understand multiple perspectives and where people are coming from. Of course I have certain values ad well such as freedom and democracy. Those are actually the only values I am truly passionate about. So I'm completely soaked in by my history studying books. For example I rooted heavily for Gorbatschow or in french revolution for the Jakobiner. I found that to be kind of entertaining as I normaly don't have any opnion an charecters and more so set value on the interaction and the story setting than relatable characters. History books are the only time I root for people haha.
Wow, thanks for the super in-depth comment! Indeed, similar to myself you have large Ti values with an Fi dip sufficient to give them personal meaning. Hmm yes I'd say I'm particularly attached to freedom and various civil rights in a manner that goes beyond considering them rational necessities.
INFJ here (I think) - my feeling about FI, i.e. my own feelings and values, is that I don't find them nearly so interesting as those of everyone else, in their infinite variety. Also I like so much being up in my head, that floaty place, and I crash down it from either when I sink into my own feelings or when I have to navigate practical aspects of the exterior sensate world. The harmony creating drive of INFJ means that I try to neutralize most of my emotions as soon as I feel they are taking over. Then figure out what brought them on and try to control it. This is both so as not to disrupt others as well as because it interrupts my head space. All except bliss. Bliss I can abandon myself to.
This is what I call great gabbing. One thing though: As an Infj we’d be extroverted feeling not introverted feeling, introverted thinking, and lastly extroverted sensing. Imagine the cognitive functions like a gradient rather than a toggle switch. The functions I was referring to goes like this if you’re an ‘E’ it would start extroverted function, introverted function, extroverted function, introverted function. You get the picture, for ‘I’s’ introverted, extroverted, introverted, extroverted.
That's the MBTI model, aye :) CPT departs from the box-model of cognitive functions and places them instead on a spectrum - all functions naturally dip into one another from various axis points and the psyche is in fact far more fluid than contemporary cognitive function models make it out to be. Same goes for type!
I'm not sure what introverted feeling is for me. When people tell me to be myself, it's kind of like slapping me in the face. What the !@#@ does that mean? I think that being myself is all relative to who I'm around. I don't know myself that well in terms of artsy type things or self-expression. I'm 6', an adult male in the process of becoming a man, an American, a Californian, a southerner in some ways (due to having a role model with West Virginian roots). I'm that, but it's not like I think that being an American, a Californian, a wannabe southerner or any of that stuff is fundamentally who I am. As an individual, I can't say much about myself. For example, I'm not that big on gay marriage. It's not because I think that it will cause problems for society or is fundamentally morally wrong, it's just not something that exists in my ideal cultural environment. If I was gay, (I'm not), then I would still be loyal to that culture and marry a woman and make her as happy as possible.
I cry all the time as a entp, at a sentiment, words..I always said it's the fe in me..many friends are intjs & infps so maybe its rubbed off on me with their dom fi It's weird, tho a entp I really look into what I value,how I see fe can be seen as manipulative too.. I've been told I use both fe fi half half. I dont take criticism well like most entps..but deffo see why fi users see fe as artificial I found instead of problem solving , and fixing most people want to be just heard and respecting what they are going through.. walking with them in their issue.. Took a counselling course to understand to let people figure out their own stuff cos their way might work differently to my way.. huge lesson.
F-types : "you hurt my feelings" Me (ENTP) : "you hurt my thoughts" and "ew, feelings* ?" while perceiving the F-type thinks about the same about thinking like "you can't approach feelings by thinking" me "oh yes you can" (and vice versa) 😁 They : nerds are dumb Me : emotional people, ugh ! * Where do you buy those (even if I know I repress those as much as possible, which often backfires.
@@coolamericano of course. In many ways its a protection from many of the emotional or crisis of conscience others go through. But having no idea who you are or seeing yourself as an individual is very hard since it seems to come so easily to everyone else. That bring said fi is subjective and nothing more than opinion made up by arrogant entitled people that think their morality will last more than 70 years and not just fade away andvfirgotten
Is it self-serving to call this a brilliant conversation? 🤔😆 Thanks so much for this conversation, Harry! Looking forward to the next one.
Thanks man! I hope not, as I'd very much say the same :D
Likewise, it was a pleasure and I'm looking forward to both tomorrow's video and future chats!
Yes, it is self serving. You were talking pretty much the entire time!
You are very articulate and articulate the concepts and ideas I have a hard time articulating.
You are so ENTP
I don’t know if I am qualified to say that somebody or something is brilliant, but I can say that I really enjoyed it and have learned a whole lot. You both said a great many things that I had never occurred to me.
"He's an ENTP - a genuine ENTP." LOL!
Hah, I couldn't resist adding that on!
Hahaha...my God!😂😂😂😂
a shiny one! those are rare...
@@slazerlombardi haha what do you mean by shiny? :)
@@CognitivePersonality Could you do an interview or... with an INTP please
As an INFP (not sure if I am but I fit the closest to Fi-Si) it sounds so alien to me when people don't know what they value.
Heh, quite!
Guess what? Fe users don't care♡
@@simpletomash We kinda adopt/acknowledge surrounding ppl's values instead so it must get to the point one ENTP realize that they don't really have their own opinion/value/.. on that one topic
For me, Fi allows me to actively evaulate my feelings (and the feelings of other people) - and be able to take a step back from them; "I am feeling this right now, but that is only because this and this -and that should not 'harm' the other person". In my head it sort of corresponds to being able to acknowledge my ego complexes and disregard it in the moment (take it out of the equation).
In that sense, Fi enables me to be more 'objective' in the evaluation of people - not to be clouded by my own feelings or ego (to an extent - I am not enlightened (yet 😉))
/Infp
Yes, wonderful comment! This definitely corresponds to a conscious convergent Fi in the dominant position :)
Thanks for the great comment as usual!
@@CognitivePersonality Thank you :-)
By the 12 minute mark I was already like...wow I can't imagine struggling with the Fi Si stuff, I do it so easily. The differences in people is truly facinating. I easily tie my inner emotions to my Si experience all the time. I will say though, when I started my journey I thought the same thing about Fe - that it was just superficial and not deep or authentic enough. It also confused me but you both know I always say that lol. I will carry on watching now.
Fascinating! Yes, I'm not in the least bit surprised our Fi-Si struggles may seem almost otherworldly to an INFP :D
@@CognitivePersonality otherworldly is a good way to describe it. The thought of being detached at all from my emotions is very foreign to me. I wish I was detached from a 45 minute presentation I have to do today though lol. I'll finish watching this when I get home :)
As another genuine entp i thank you very much personally for the open perspective you are showing the wordl about how a real entp looks like
This was excellent especially for someone who misses "NT Support". I love when the theoretical explanations are applied to someone's personal experience. I struggle with that.
Thanks so much!
Loved that channel. Especially their typing people videos.
Fascinating- hearing you talk about activating te or Fi respectively requiring aloneness and space, i think thats the same for me and my Ti
Ahhh, that does make sense! Would you say you can actively monitor Fi even when around people?
Cognitive Personality Theory well, i dont usually need to actively monitor it, unless im in a heightened emotional state and i realize that my emotions are not appropriate for the situation
Cool interview! Fi is a really interesting function. Even as a tertiary Fi it means a lot to me. I am fiercely identity independent haha. I like the interview type videos, they are fun every once and awhile.
Yeah I think the occasional video like this is refreshing :)
Ahh yes, I posit convergent auxiliary Fi users such as yourself have an equally powerful, but nonetheless different, utilisation and relationship with this function.
LOVED this video, guys-- thank you both!
--> I [an INFJ] definitely find it easiest to access feeling (to me, Fe and Fi are ultimately both feeling) through external manifestations of something I relate to personally (even if I don't know exactly why). So, I'll watch a movie, listen to a song, etc. that I feel resonates with something inside me. To me, this feels like impersonal, yet emotional on a "we're all human" level, and I am too(!)... So, it seems to me that the Fe needs are met, then the Fi "realizations"/"affirmations" happen in Fe's wake.
~ And the other access point for me is what you were referencing, Harry, with bypassing Ti entirely (due to mental/emotional/or physical fatigue, impasse point in clear perception at the moment, etc.) and going into this "melancholia" of Ni/Fi that feels like a dream, in many ways... Ni/Ti is me in my head, but feels sharp. Ni/Fi is me in my head, but blurry (perception/focus-wise)
Thanks again!!! ^_^ --Matt
Thanks Matt! I really loved this chat and am a big fan of Jeffrey!
I love the Cognitive Personality Theory channel, but something about this discussion about Fi makes me laugh a little bit. As an Fi user (INFP), it seems to me that people into typology theory have built up an enormous number of false conclusions about what Fi actually is...and thus, there have developed a lot of prejudices about Fi users that are truly unfair. But if we are really looking at Fi as the polar antagonist of Ti, I think that we need to simply look at that polarity as simply the difference between creative input vs. critical feedback. Both are forms of commentary, both are forms of observation about the world. Both are, in essence, attempting to form a thesis or a hypothesis about the world, and both have valuable contributions to give towards that end. Fi is synthesizing, and Ti is breaking things down. But both are necessary sides of the same coin.
To dismiss Fi is to dismiss essential aspects of consciousness, and frankly, it's quite dangerous. Now of course we won't expect INFP's and ENTP's to ever get along particularly well...but both are bringing out necessary information and commentary that leads to the progress of the species. It's simply that Ti users (perhaps out of pride) have extreme difficulty in acknowledging the validity of the Fi approach, even if a world without Fi would ultimately be a world that could not function. Fi is just as much of a tactical function as it is an emotional function--it is not just some kind of pointless mysteriousness or over-sentimentality. If you are even going to discuss the genius of the INTJ personality type, one must realize that tertiary Fi is the very thing that makes them able to create a coherent hypothesis...otherwise they would just be all information gathering and no synthesis.
To suggest that Fi users are not deep or careful thinkers is one of the most egregious statements in all of typology, yet it is consistently one that one is likely to hear the most. Furthermore, it seems to me that people who are particularly poor with Fi (AKA ExTP's) don't really have much they can do in order to come to a more correct understanding of what it is, or how it manifests. Being in the Ti frame, one is in a constant state of deconstructive analysis. To be in a fully Fi frame, one is making observations about the world in a very unhurried and imaginative way. So my suggestion to Ti users who feel the need to 'abuse' Fi users for being dumb...is to consider that Fi users are simply providing the peripheral, observational information that they are missing when they are logically deconstructing something. You can't be constantly in a mode of focused deconstruction and also fully pay attention to the nuance of what is going on around you. You can't be tearing things down and simultaneously be constructing a narrative. Both sides of the (Ti--Fi) polarity should be thankful for what the other side provides, rather than claiming the other side of the polarity is totally invalid.
I totally agree with you! This conversation was very lighthearted in this sense, with both myself and Jeffrey entertainingn a fascination with a function neither of us experiences as a central focal point.
Your points are excellent - in my latest video I explore the essential role Fi plays in existential reconciliation and true knowledge :)
So hard to understand the need to express emotion to understand them except that i need to do that with my logic. It sounds like a frustrating process to be unable to do so internally
I WISH I had a conscious window into my Fi as you do, but I guess like the logical component in your respect it has its own advantages :)
Great video, I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation
Thanks Michelle - I can't wait to upload our own conversation too!
AAAAH! this is amazing! i relate a lot to this! i actually have started the "crying routine" though its been more a byproduct from trying to access my Fi through journaling - i suppose one can say its accessing Fi through Si. writing about past experiences allows me to access the emotions i have buried (or rather at the time thought i didnt have). i dont cry easily or often as my own emotions are generally something that i choose to 'switch off' even if they are justified or logical because i dont want them to interfere with my decision making or with my understanding of whatever core issue im addressing. also, writing it down makes it more concrete, since my emotions tend to be rather nebulous and difficult to describe unless they are extreme and then too they're still basic like 'angry' 'sad' 'happy' 'playful' ahahha! though the writing is multi-faceted, in that not only am i recording past events and how they made/make me feel, but also where i used to be as a person, where i am now and where i want to be, because life has an uncanny way of directing a person in a completely different direction than one intended and so its important to keep reassessing, looking at the opportunities that *are* available and how to use them best to ones advantage towards meeting those dreams and future goals - or even entirely reworking/evolving them.
im not a sentimental person and i generally go with the flow of what everyone wants and that has meant that ive never developed a clear view of who I am and what I like as opposed to what everyone else wants or likes. however i have come to the conclusion that nobody can know you better than you know yourself and so in order to achieve self understanding when faced with a decision where im inclined to do what everyone else wants, i ask myself "do i like this? do i want this? do i actually enjoy this? does this *feel* right to *me*?" without forcing myself to have a reason for my preference. Usually i already know the answer but keep wanting the input from others, which is not necessarily a good thing. of course, occasionally my preference is contrary to everyone else's and with this comes the fear of rejection ahahaha it sounds so silly but its true. for someone keyed up to maintain social harmony, being the salmon that swims upstream can be a bit difficult. so technically i've started following the advice i keep on giving everyone else to be true to themselves.
though, at the same time, i have found that while there may be initial backlash, people eventually come around. I relate a lot to what Jeffrey says. i started out at a very young age with music as a means to connect with other people as well as to release all the emotions i didnt understand. for most of my childhood i felt detached from my physical self and it has been a long journey reconnecting and 'taking charge' of myself again in order to impact the world more in an active instead of reactive manner. my need to create has been a driving force - the times that i ignored it due to circumstances caused me such depression i literally felt like dying and so channeled this into writing. though, as Jeffrey says, the idea of creating something personal and then sharing it with the world is terrifying because what if people hate it? though at the same time it might help so many people too, so its a catch 22. at the same time i keep on thinking 'just do it' because otherwise when i no longer have the opportunity to share what i've created there will only be regret.
thank you for the video! really it was very interesting! loved the theory and the viewpoints from infj and entp
Awesome essay - thank you! ;)
I really relate to your using music as a medium for emotional connection - I'm not sure where I would be if I didn't find guitar all those years ago.
Great insights!!
Gosh. When Jeffrey talked about the disconnect from the body…”it’s like being in a vehicle where you don’t fully understand the controls”…that hit so close to him for me. There have been many times where I’ve wished I could be a purely mental being and explore possibilities of everything without being tethered to things like…eating, sleeping, pooping, and just the general cleanup and maintenance of this weird body of mine. It can be frustrating when I’m highly engaged in something.
ENFP here. :)
Love this bromance!
As a (most likely) INFP (Fi dom), this was an entertaining yet strange conversation to follow. For me, a value-based framework of decision making is taken for granted. Its strange to see others not grasping what Fi really is.
It has nothing to do with emotions, but it can triggers strong emotions.
But lets speak about emotions. Emotions are easy to be triggered. There are 4 basic emotions and everything is made from a combination of them. Joy, Sadness, Anger, Fear. Have someone cross your boundaries (like stealing or destroying your computer) and it will make you feel angry. Experience a great sense of disconnect (like a loss of someone or even yourself) and it will cause you sadness, tears or depression. Joy: have something that excites you. Fear: put the unknown or a threat in front of you (a tiger, or whatever serves that purpose). Yes, it is true. Emotions are linked to memories.
Still as I said, a value-based decision making framework has nothing to do with emotions. Its actually similar to Ti, just replace logic with value-attribution. Value can be ethical (what feels right), what feels good (emotionally like excitement or sensed within the body), it could logic (linked to Te), etc.
As an INFP I struggle with my unconscious functions too, especially Ti, Fe, Se. The dominant counterpart, Fe is easy for me to understand but hard to practice, as Fi is dominant. The dominant Fi also dips easily into Ti (but somewhat difficult to stay there). The counterpart of my tertiary Si, which is Se, is harder to hold, it can be done by for a few minutes like doing sports (but body often reverts back to introspective sensing or feeling).
And heads up for your comment about the need for INFPs to add 5% extra energy and publish that poetry or writing, which we use to process emotions. Much appreciated advice!
Heh, indeed! Thanks for sharing :)
Also, I'm glad that bite of advice was useful!
Great to hear Fi from the perspective of an Fe user. But why not have an Fi dom/aux user to discuss Fi?
We thought it would be interesting to discuss Fi from the perspective of our own types as we both have the function in an oftentimes unconscious position, yet manifesting in a different manner :)
That being said, the contrast between such an unconscious Fi and, say, a dominant Fi would be also very interesting!
I do have collabs with two Fi users filmed and in the editing pipeline, however :)
Wow! I totally relate to the "floodgate" metaphor... As an ENTP it is exactly what Jeffrey said... At younger age I did use to access my Fi through negative events which caused me anxiety in some way... For example I always seemed like, atleast to other kids, somewhat aloof and while I was not exactly a class clown but I do heavily relate to that "word"... And this caused me... Basically I figured that my close friends didn't care about me as in "ME"... It was from their POV(subconsciously) I think like... There's this guy, he creates fun but he's not too strict about his boundaries or his values (bcuz I didn't have that strong Fi, let alone having that much assertion to atleast be open about it)... As a result I was often taken as somewhat expandible subconsciously by them... Which later through some events I began to understand... And this understanding brings me this "awkward uneasy"ness... Because I really can't blame them can I? It is how I am perceived from the outside and it's probably not going to change. But yeah, it does feel like a revelation whenever I tap into these thoughts...
So to me... For a good amount of time I used to think Fi as something that's really really desirable (in contrast to how Jeffery said he used to look at it) but also I have this understanding that let's say... I don't have the right tools to access my Fi like an INFP, with that much precision and solid-ness... So internally I still think that atleast for me... Trying to understand my Fi values is a waste of time because although highly desire that function and the cohesion that it brings to the table... I don't think I'll be able to let's say... Stick to those values in the way I want.
Very interesting; thanks for sharing! I would still encourage Fi development as sticking to values is only one half of the Fi equation :)
Well done boys - was fun! 👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks Sean - looking forward to releasing our own collab soon! :D
Much appreciated, Sean!
Hey guys,
Great conversation. There's so much to take from what you both shared!
The main struggle for me with values was figuring them out while trying to understand how others and the world works. It became more complex when I was observing others and how they deal with their environment, especially since I picked up on what they value easily. It ultimately confused me more on how to know what I value. The idea that others have the answer to what's valuable, what's right or wrong, or how to act, etc. Though, I acted sometimes on values that I didn't know I had, like defending my friend from a group of bullies when we were 7 from an inner decision that it was harmful to my friend. There was already a set of inner values but I didn't understand what they are yet. Since I grew up in a certain belief system, I took them on, though as a teen I started to try to understand logically why would certain values exist, how they affect us, and what's their utility. I lacked a lot of knowledge on that front, so it took years for me to find answers, until it made sense to me logically the set of values I follow have reasons to exist that aim to keep me and others in a healthy state.
My struggle with Fi other than the above is the internal mechanism that kept altering me I'm only focusing on what others value and helping them attain it, it usually comes in a feeling of resentment, annoyance or frustration. I realize then that I've neglected myself enough, haha.
Taking into consideration that the psyche is a complex system with several aspects, and that several things are happening at the same time, it's possible through our own experience to develop a healthy, aligned value system in our own way and at our own pace.
With regard to accessing Ne, I used to think for the longest time that there's usually a best way of going forward, part of me still does as a Ni dominant. Though at university, I realized that I was by default not recognizing there are different ways to address things and it might yield different possibilities. I start from the context I'm looking at, and have awareness not to disregard possibilities and to keep them in mind. Obviously, the flexibility of how many I could realize is less than a person who uses Ne more constantly and consciously.
To access aspects of Ni, after generating possibilities, choose one or two that will give the best results possible in a given situation (depends on the results you're looking for, and if your evaluating them based on logic or value or both).
Looking forward to new content!
Best regards.
Amazing comment, thanks Zeinab!
I can certainly relate to having a set of inner values that take time to understand on a logical-utility level and I'm glad you eventually made that reconciliation between Thinking and Feeling.
Yes, it can certainly be difficult to balance the values of others with the values of the self.
Developing such a value system, as well as chipping away at the values that impede this allignment, can certainly take time but, much as with the rest of individuation, it can very much be a lifelong journey!
I'm also becoming increasingly mindful of the multi-faceted approach to finding solutions, and as you say this gives Ni even more options to choose from! And choose it shall ;)
Cheers!
Jeffrey is my ENTP brother, weird how much we are a like. Loved the collab, great insights! Keep it up 👍🏾
He's a super cool guy - it's great to be able to film a genuinely enjoyable conversation and share it with others. I hope people enjoy the collab as much as we did!
Cheers for the comment :)
Joshua L does a very fair job of describing Fi. Worth checking out. It is the most human function, it gives human beings a purpose of existing rather than simply being machine cogs.
Nice, sounds like a nice explanation!
CPT intrinsically connects Fi to the limbic system (ie dopamine circuits) so offers a very similar perspective!
INFJs and ENTPs make a great Socionics pedagogue relationship.
Aye!
ENTP here.
While using Fe and Si seems effective to bring emotions
into our present moment (as much as that can be done) I argue that Se is better suited for the task. Heres how and why. For example, I’m an ENTP who has studied classical acting and graduated from a conservatory considered to be the best in the English speaking world. Regardless of your discipline, the school has musicians, dancers, singers and actors practice the work of F. M. Alexander. I learned and practiced through The Alexander Technique how to better sense my internal and external physical world simultaneously.. I learned that my emotions (and creativity/inspiration) would more easily bubble up from deep within my body if it remained free of internal tension. Surely, using Fe and watching a film or listening to music could easily evoke tears and my emotions yet, I believe there is a marked difference in using Se + Ne over Si + Fe. The former is a physical exploration and the latter takes place in the mind alone leading to an experience in the body.
I am a subscriber to each of your channels. Thank you for this video!
Amazing contribution! I agree the Se-Te employment (the concrete objective such as breathing and postural exercises) allows axial fluidity with Ni-Fi (holistic overview of emotional state) while also grounding oneself in the here and now as an added bonus!
According to Socionics Fi is the weakest cognitive function for the ENTP. Hence it is called the "vulnerable" function.
Depends on the person but generally I see the distinction!
Harry: "where do you see yourself in 5 years (with fi)?"
Jeffrey: 😶 "whoaaaa"
LOL. Okay but really, this chat was phenomenal! Discussing fi as having these limbic and gut responses is spot on! I've also been thinking lately about how to access the functions and how I've personally noticed myself stretching different muscles. For example, I find that its helpful for me to engage Ni if I look at what I'm currently doing. What do I have going on right now? What have I placed in my life? What am I trying to set myself up for? I can sometimes be oblivious to those things...it feels like my Ni compass is buried underneath me.
Anyway, great vid again, loved the conversation and chemistry.
-Hillary
Ahaha I launched that one out of nowhere!
Thanks Hillary - I've yet to properly check out your channel but I remember watching your own collab with Jeffrey and thought it was great!
Function access is something I'm extremely passionate about myself, and as you say it can often be a counter-intuitive approach of looking towards a function's natural opposite (Se in this instance) and using the axis for activation of two extremes :)
INFPs so often have a great Ni (particularly as adjoined to Ti) but you're right in that this vision-forming tends to be a struggle, partially because it involves choosing from all the possible options!
Cheers for commenting!
-Harry
Exploring the external abstract (part of what Ne does)
I remember when I was 5 the teacher took the class to the school yard to pull the weeds, .. but i refused... I was upset (and crying) because i didn't understand why some plants had the right to live and others no… and frustrated, because nobody else really cared but me and everyone did what the teacher said! 😅 it seemed so clearly unfair to me... 😒 Is this an example of FI? 🤔
I am guessing that the trickster function may also be the savior of the personality. A problem of having a strong 1st/2nd function is that we equate the ego with ourselves. The 7th function tricks us out of this identification, suggesting that we identify with the Self, instead.
As an ENTP, I am great at having profound conversations. I have been having them all my life, yet something was always missing. No matter how deep, and deeply metaphysical, the conversations were, they somehow seemed superficial to me. They seemed to carry a promise of something that I did not have. I came to see that something was missing in all the conversations because they did not fully engage my FI. The conversations were deeply stimulating, but they did not offer the consummation that a deeper way of feeling might offer.
I am guessing that the 7th function is the “missing piece” in the personality, and that, without it, we are still treading the surface somehow, no matter how deep our interactions may be.
In the soul’s quest for love, we look for our missing piece. When the personality is less developed, we might even develop a fantasy or dream of what that missing piece might be, and we assume that it is an intuition of our ultimate beloved. We may carry this “archetype” as a standard against which all human beings fall short. Or, we may project this archetype on other persons and fall in love with them for that reason.
Actually developing the missing (7th) function helps us to reclaim it as a lost part of ourselves so that we don’t need to look for it elsewhere. I see now that my FI was trying to talk to me through the deep conversations. When I left the conversations and listened for the FI directly, a great deal changed in my life. I feel a wholeness and groundedness that I did not feel earlier.
This is my experience with a “trickster” FI. I am wondering if something similar is true for people who have other trickster functions. What do you think?
This is so interesting, Barbara. Did you find that just listening was enough to connect with Fi? Or did you have to (eek!) obey it?
@@silhouetta37 I don’t think we have to obey because as human beings we are in charge. A function isn’t a person, a function is a capability. We, though, are persons. When a function presents information to us, we can listen and consider and use discernment about how we might want to implement the function’s point of view. We are not our functions any more than we are our arms and legs, IMO. We are human beings (whatever that’s may mean) and out functions are not.
Discovering more about a more hidden function might be like finding a gold coin in the road. The coin is an opportunity, but it does not get to tell you how to spend it. You are the one who gets to decide how to use it in a way that might be of the most benefit to you.
I’m not sure of my type yet but been trying to connect with Fi this week. Realised that when asked “what do you want/value?” my response is to either a) basically mirror back what you want, or b) consult my entire conception of the world over several weeks and deduce what I *should* want. I see my own desires basically as one pretty insignificant single data point in the context of “what does the whole world want/need?” so don’t pay it much attention.
Unfortunately, recent experience has revealed that when I go to actually pursue my logical ideals actively in the world... it becomes quite important to have a relationship with the captain of your own ship! To be familiar with how she likes to behave, what I can expect her to do when I’m outside of my preferred situation of responding to other people’s requirements... Because it turns out she can really dig her toes in, if she doesn’t feel like doing what makes sense. Have just quit my idealistically dream job because I couldn’t wrangle her. She may not ultimately ‘matter’ more than anyone else, but it turns out she has to matter to me.
Pondering this while listening to Jung exploring and personifying his own subconscious, I realised that it might help to picture this Self as an externalised character who I need to learn to adapt to, the same as I adapt to everyone else as if they were absolutes. At the moment she’s a little pixie thing on my shoulder. Or sometimes the stubborn lower half of a rather comically disharmonious centaur... I’m going to start trying to pay attention to what she wants, let her take the lead sometimes and find out for herself where that leads and gain some muscle and wisdom - instead of being just an occasional petulant child that only shows up to stop me from obeying my own logic.
Feel like this must sound utterly crazy to anyone with strong Fi!
I am certainly interesting in trying this strategy of third person self-framing out!
Do you think it's correct to say that the Fi-Te mode is when you see the self as a subject and others as objects, while Fe-Ti is when you see the self as an object and others as subjects? We can all obviously flip the equation, and do so all the time, but I guess we all have a default mode.
My theory is that strong Fi comes from high volume output by the pro-personal emotions (strong connection with own body, possibly high disgust and lust circuits? high sense of violation when personal boundaries are crossed, rage circuits directed at threats to the self, shame in connection with loss of dignity - all leading to very clear delineation of where the self ends and the world begins), while Fe has all of these dialled down in relation to the self, and gets high output from the pro-social emotions (high care/cathexis response, possibly high trust? high innate distress when others suffer, high anxiety when out of step with the group, high sense of violation when the group/others are under threat, rage directed at threats to the group/others, personal shame in connection with social failure - all leading to a more diffuse and malleable sense of self with unclear boundaries).
Makes sense for nature to produce variation in these settings across the population. A social species benefits from having a mix of people who are naturally communal minded, and people who can look at the community more objectively, and can embody drive and change.
I love that! I would say there is some truth here, as Fi-Te certainly tends to see others as object. I would say my Ti sees itself as an object and all Feeling as subject :)
I appreciate your pro-personal/pro-social distinction! I would say this becomes tricky when dip functions are introduced, as Fi dominants and Fe authorities (e.g. INFJs) can experience both rather strongly.
My experience of introverted feeling (I’m INFP) is that it is a maelstrom. It’s exhausting. It’s really useful for artistic pursuits, but aside from that it’s kind of a burden. I would like to know if you get a sense of that when you try to access introverted feeling. Is it like opening a door and seeing a tornado outside?
Yes, I imagine it would be! In some ways it's a blessing to be detached, on a conscious level, from my emotions so often - but on the other hand, this lack of awareness can very much catch me off guard sometimes.
If I leave it too long without Fi dialogue, then yes it is very much akin to a tornado! Usually, though, it's more akin a vast galaxy of unnamed solar systems :)
Cognitive Personality Theory Wow that’s a nice way to think of it!
@@CognitivePersonality so much. And this is why I repress Fi although I know I shouldn't. But it can be so overwhelming. Crying : I can't cry. If I cry I'm in a total panic mode. I get terrible headaches, I am tired for the rest of the day, but that's also probably because I have CPTSD. And when I'm too happy, I get hypoglycemia ! Mentally I feel like I am not afraid of emotions, emotions are like thoughts, they are not you, just a part of you. But my body seems to disagree (and that sucks).
Apparently, you have yet to explore the vast extent of your (Fi). If you're restricting (Fi) to arts, then you're underestimating it a great deal. Aside from the artistic perspective, Fi users have a natural potential to be great philosophers and theorists, they are the best at understanding the human emotional realm and putting oneself at other people's shoes. And let's not forget that "Isabel myers briggs" who was an INFP is the creator of MBTI
Two questions:
You said FI is more of an experience then a perspective is that true for someone like me an INFP?
How would an INFP go about developing FE?
One way in which I (an ENTP) access my less conscious functions is to remember that they WANT to communicate with me, and then to wait to hear what they have to say. They are not inert items of buried treasure but living entities whose job is to express and serve the Self.
If you have a child and ignore them, belittle them, or continually compare them unfavorably to their brothers and sisters, that child is going either to withdraw (go unconscious), or try to get your attention by getting in your way (nemesis), proving you wrong (critic), playing jokes and tricks on you (trickster), or, out of pure desperation, becoming very destructive (demon).
The same child, growing up in an atmosphere of love, respect, appreciation, and even celebration, will likely grow and become a vital, contributing citizen in the world. Instead of pursuing the hidden functions, I accept as a premise and an honor that they want to talk to me and that, if I only listen, they will become my devoted servants and friends. (For this reason, I also love feelings like envious, disgusted, covetous, etc., as they are all our teachers.)
A classic question in psychoanalytic circles is why Jungian patients have “Jungian” dreams, Freudian patients have “Freudian” dreams, Adlerian patients have “Adlerian” dreams, etc. My personal answer is that the “unconscious” wants to much to communicate with us that it will use any language that we agree to as a means for accomplishing that. The unconscious functions will also speak to us, willingly, if we only give them space and listen without judgment.
I have learned from my FI trickster that it’s main concern is universal love and also that it feels enormous pain whenever I hurt another person or myself. It feels tenderly and delicately toward others in a way that I do not ordinarily feel. When I let it speak, it speaks with great benignity. My FI trickster joins with my FE child in understanding that we are all on a journey that we don’t understand, and that we can at least bring each other a little fun and joy, offer each other a little comfort, and include all of each other.
I have learned from my SE demon that it is OK for me to be quiet, to be ignorant (not to know anything), and how to be present without judging when dark feelings from the past emerge. It is like the earth, willing to accept me without judgment. It has taught me the lesson of receptivity. For a long time, my inferior Si remembered only the things that hurt me; now it is remembering the events that served and nourished me as well.
I love your words on dreams! It does seem natural for the unconscious to use a mode of communication that we are most familiar with here.
In many senses it is this function any self-improvement oriented individual will value the most, and can often feel like the final point of full integration.
Wow! I feel intrigued by your remark, “the final point of full integration.” How would anybody know that they had achieved that? I am guessing that the state of integration comes and goes for a long period of time until it finally settles in. Even then, some continuing disintegration is probably inevitable, as life is always moving. I am thinking that the point is to become increasingly skillful at allowing for disintegration in response to the challenges of life and, then, at finding new ways to re-integrate. In other words, we get better, and faster, at disintegrating and re-integrating and incorporating that twofold process into the work of growing.
Such great comments, Barbara; I relate to so much of this! Really nice to hear someone else express it, and to see the journey you've been on with this. Hope we can all keep learning and experimenting!
So I'm doing Ti Ni
(For INTPs)
I love ti to fi aspect he said. I find it rather true that I can understand fi through ti in way. When I try to figure out if I like something or how I feel about something I usually have a list full of pros or cons of that thing in my head.
But other than I'm very fi blind, probably more than other entps. Like people used to ask me how I was doing and I was just like: I don't know. Or making judgements if I like someone or not. Fi users adpecially are so quick to make judgements about that and I'm just sitting here being like: how can you judge someone after 5 minutes.
However I do the same as in dipping into that through si as I later remember how fun or exciting this or that conversation was. Or I access through ti as I see people more so as structures or concepts with various sides and aspects to them and I weigh them out in order to make a judgement about someone.
Concerning values I'm actually more closer to you. But kind of a mix of you and Jeffrey. Inititally I value understanding (I don't like the term truth as I don't believe there is an totally objective truth as you only ever are able to understand the univirse from your personal subjective human senses). However I always look for what makes sense for humanity and for that I usually see different historical or philosphical connection in order to form ideas and opinions what may work in the current political climate and what is the best for entire humanity. I actually talked about it with my ethics teacher when talking about kant (have a kind of kantish view as well). I like to insert an example: the develoapment of africa would be huge advantage of the people living there however developing industry may lead to more Co² emissions which can cause more damage due to climate change for entire humanity even though a large group may benefit from that.
And this is usually how I approach things. I first try to understand the logic of multiple perspectives conncect those perspectives and weigh them to then hopefully come to possible ideas what be the most benefitital for humanity as current state. So as I don't follow any ideolgy or have strong values concerning that I'm rarely ever offended, especially since I also see and seek to understand multiple perspectives and where people are coming from.
Of course I have certain values ad well such as freedom and democracy. Those are actually the only values I am truly passionate about. So I'm completely soaked in by my history studying books. For example I rooted heavily for Gorbatschow or in french revolution for the Jakobiner.
I found that to be kind of entertaining as I normaly don't have any opnion an charecters and more so set value on the interaction and the story setting than relatable characters. History books are the only time I root for people haha.
Wow, thanks for the super in-depth comment!
Indeed, similar to myself you have large Ti values with an Fi dip sufficient to give them personal meaning.
Hmm yes I'd say I'm particularly attached to freedom and various civil rights in a manner that goes beyond considering them rational necessities.
im afraid of the steps I might take to try to secure freedom and self determination for as many people as I can, is it even my place?
INFJ here (I think) - my feeling about FI, i.e. my own feelings and values, is that I don't find them nearly so interesting as those of everyone else, in their infinite variety.
Also I like so much being up in my head, that floaty place, and I crash down it from either when I sink into my own feelings or when I have to navigate practical aspects of the exterior sensate world.
The harmony creating drive of INFJ means that I try to neutralize most of my emotions as soon as I feel they are taking over. Then figure out what brought them on and try to control it. This is both so as not to disrupt others as well as because it interrupts my head space. All except bliss. Bliss I can abandon myself to.
26:57 Ti
This is what I call great gabbing. One thing though: As an Infj we’d be extroverted feeling not introverted feeling, introverted thinking, and lastly extroverted sensing. Imagine the cognitive functions like a gradient rather than a toggle switch. The functions I was referring to goes like this if you’re an ‘E’ it would start extroverted function, introverted function, extroverted function, introverted function. You get the picture, for ‘I’s’ introverted, extroverted, introverted, extroverted.
That's the MBTI model, aye :)
CPT departs from the box-model of cognitive functions and places them instead on a spectrum - all functions naturally dip into one another from various axis points and the psyche is in fact far more fluid than contemporary cognitive function models make it out to be. Same goes for type!
I'm not sure what introverted feeling is for me. When people tell me to be myself, it's kind of like slapping me in the face. What the !@#@ does that mean? I think that being myself is all relative to who I'm around. I don't know myself that well in terms of artsy type things or self-expression. I'm 6', an adult male in the process of becoming a man, an American, a Californian, a southerner in some ways (due to having a role model with West Virginian roots). I'm that, but it's not like I think that being an American, a Californian, a wannabe southerner or any of that stuff is fundamentally who I am. As an individual, I can't say much about myself. For example, I'm not that big on gay marriage. It's not because I think that it will cause problems for society or is fundamentally morally wrong, it's just not something that exists in my ideal cultural environment. If I was gay, (I'm not), then I would still be loyal to that culture and marry a woman and make her as happy as possible.
I cry all the time as a entp, at a sentiment, words..I always said it's the fe in me..many friends are intjs & infps so maybe its rubbed off on me with their dom fi
It's weird, tho a entp I really look into what I value,how I see fe can be seen as manipulative too..
I've been told I use both fe fi half half.
I dont take criticism well like most entps..but deffo see why fi users see fe as artificial
I found instead of problem solving , and fixing most people want to be just heard and respecting what they are going through.. walking with them in their issue..
Took a counselling course to understand to let people figure out their own stuff cos their way might work differently to my way.. huge lesson.
Thanks for sharing :)
I don't even know my type. I studied cognitive functions but I am still stuck at guessing my functions.
It takes dedication and focus for sure, but it always helps to get a second opinion from a trusted source!
For an INFJ Fi is their critic function according to Beebe. They can be critical of their self worth.
Particularly mistyped INFPs!
Why do all entps drink something while they were speaking to followers at youtube ?
This is an excellent question!
11:53 and 12:52 ground yoursel
NPs are or can be very bubbly (it depends)
Introverted feeling, what is it good for absolutely nothing.
Entp parody
Ahahaha!
F-types : "you hurt my feelings"
Me (ENTP) : "you hurt my thoughts" and "ew, feelings* ?" while perceiving the F-type thinks about the same about thinking like "you can't approach feelings by thinking" me "oh yes you can" (and vice versa) 😁
They : nerds are dumb
Me : emotional people, ugh !
* Where do you buy those (even if I know I repress those as much as possible, which often backfires.
You wish you had it, that's why you talk shit about it. i mean it's your blind spot lol
@@coolamericano of course. In many ways its a protection from many of the emotional or crisis of conscience others go through. But having no idea who you are or seeing yourself as an individual is very hard since it seems to come so easily to everyone else.
That bring said fi is subjective and nothing more than opinion made up by arrogant entitled people that think their morality will last more than 70 years and not just fade away andvfirgotten
@@mattmatthewmatchuu Fi is no more subjective than your Ti. why the hate towards Fi users though? Relax