BAD vs GOOD TIMING CHAIN CHECK! [BMW N47 Timing Chain Noise and PicoScope 2204A] | Mechanic Mindset
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- Опубликовано: 1 июл 2020
- In this video, we look at how to diagnose a timing chain issue on a BMW with N47 engine with PicoScope. With a new timing chain installed, we look at the bad vs good! We will use the PicoScope 2204A and scope the crankshaft and camshaft sensor signals. We use the PicoScope advanced trigger function to help us hold the waveform still so we can analyse the CKP/CMP signals. We also use the PicoScope degrees measurement to compare the bad timing gear to the new one! This quick camshaft crankshaft correlation check will help identify mechanical faults without performing any mechanical test!
The BMW N47 Timing chain is a common part that fails, this check will help confirm any issues for this expensive repair! This check will help confirm a noisey BMW N47 timing chain.
Part 1: • OH DEAR! TIMING CHAIN ...
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I'm a construction equipment technician and I've been using the 2204A for several years now and never knew what the advance trigger setting can do. Now I know. I also learned more about the degrees of crank revolution thanks to your video. Thanks Darren, you just made my job easier and me better.
Thanks for the feedback! This is music to my ears, glad I have helped. Anything else you are interested to know more about? 👍
@@MechanicMindset I asked in your 5 tips video about sample rate settings. You kind of answered that in these timing chain videos.You had a good example in these of how changing the sample rate cleaned up the noise in your pattern. Again, thanks for the education. Great videos! I'm a permanent subscriber now and have watched them all but 2 so far (ran out of time this morning). Look forward to more.
That was interesting seeing the cam/crank staying in sync with each other at idle with the new chain, and constantly changing with the old chain. It looks a pain to replace
Yes I was pleased with the outcome of the comparison, amazing it was still running. To be fair, I’ve had them still running with valves touching pistons; they run but you can’t turn them over by hand!! Not too bad when you’ve done a few; I had to lift the engine 3 inch to get the sump out on this one. No bother if you’ve got all the kit. Cheers for watching 👍
Outstanding comparison between the good and bad. Thanks!
Baxrok2 Thanks, worked out great right?!
Fantastic video Darren, well done mate.
I like this one too 👍
Thank you sir. Good job. Have a blessed and safe week to you and your family.
Thanks for watching 👍
Very nice explanation of the effects of a loose chain.
Cheers! Hope it helps 👍
Darren your videos are excellent and very informative. Much appreciated that your using a scope that I own. Like. Home you retrieved the signal at the ECU/PCM. I own Hondas and will check my wiring diagrams to see where I can get the signal the easiest. Big help. My objective is to acquire all known good signals while everything is working correctly. Stay well and safe 😊 Artie
Nice validation of both the diagnostic procedure and repair. 👍
2204A for the win 😂
Great test, thanks for sharing!
Awesome result Darren!! Thanks for sharing !
I was please with the way this turned out. Always good for me to get my hands on faulty cars, it doesn’t happen often anymore!
Great job! Thanks for sharing!
Great content, subbed straight away. I've done a few of these now, they sound so much better afterwards if the chain is noisy. Always turn clockwise from front, anti clockwise from the back of the engine.
They are not bad to do once you’ve done a few. Thanks for the sub, great to have you on the channel! 👍
nice detailed vid, appreciate the work, thanks!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
Our PicoScope Training Is Now Live! www.mechanicmindset.com/diagnostic-coach
Excellent video. Thank you.
nice fix .. keep the good work
Thanks man!
Brilliant Darren thanks for sharring
Ian Kelly thanks for watching 👍
you pretty good at this stuff, good video
Thanks Henry! Glad you are enjoying the videos as much as I enjoy making them!
Awesome video thanks for sharing 👍
Cheers Lawson!
nice one , good job !!!
Cheers 👍
that was very interesting thank for sharing
Thanks for watching 👍
Darren, very good work man, thank you !!!
Cheers! Cool test right?!
Man you don't know how much you open my eyes with this trigger information. Thanks. Cheers.!
Super. Liked the videos very much. ThankYou 🔝🔝🔝
Thanks for watching!
Wonderful idea to show the internals mid way through replacing the chain, I will check the readouts with Picoscope and even if they're right - if I won't be replacing the chain yet - I will probably replace the tensioner, just to be on the safe(r) side. Once again, great video, very informative, thanks for sharing.
Glad you enjoyed the video! I just replaced the tensioner in my N47 recently. Cured the start up rattle
@@MechanicMindset I'll start with the tensioner then, glad you mentioned it. Mine hasn't got any rattles yet, but just went over 100k miles - unless it's one of not many with no issues / good servicing practice - but doubt that. Thanks again!
10 degree?? Oww. Not expected. So helpfull video to understand result of chain elongation. So clever. Cheers.
Haha, quite a lot right?! I have had them come in running with valve touching piston!!
@@MechanicMindset Exactly. Pls keep inform us like this. I’m looking forward new ones.
BRAVO!
Forever subscription!
WizRumburak Glad you enjoyed the video. Great to have you on the channel! Thanks 👍
Nice job 👍🏻
John Taylor Thanks for watching!
If you missed it, check out Part 1 here!! ruclips.net/video/g8U6l_7f-WM/видео.html
Link to PicoScope Waveforms:
eepurl.com/g9VVl9
Daniel kemmett Hi! Glad you enjoyed the videos. I don’t actually work in the tools much anymore, but give my mate a call, he will quote you. Bob @ Bimmer Worx Coventry 07791 182529. Tell him I sent you, I used to work with him at BMW main dealer 👍
Mechanic Mindset thank you so much mate I’ll give him a call
Daniel kemmett Hi, just following this up; did you manage to catch up with him? If not, give me a mail mechanicmindset@gmail.com 👍
thanks from algeria
Nice bit of testing with the wee pico
Cheers! I love this little 2204A! Thanks for watching 👍
Very good ! From BRAZIL !!
POWER Thanks for watching!
Awesome.cheers 🍺
Thanks.
Hi. I've just got to this video and it's brilliant ! I've got an 118d and has the timing chain done by the previous owner however the engine doesn't seems to sound normal and the fuel economy is very poor and the power quite low... Can you have a look at it please ? Where are you based ? Thanks
Thanks
thank for video
Hope you enjoyed it!
Genius!
great stuff!!! please keep em coming darren!!!
Glad you’re enjoying the channel 👍
Great video, I wish I would’ve watched it a day sooner. I just ran a crank to cam capture on a 2019 Colorado with a 3.6L with low compression no start.
Have you had a chance to try this method yet?
@@MechanicMindset Unfortunately I haven’t. To be honest we don’t get a lot of the older higher mileage stuff at the dealer. That’s one thing about this atmosphere a lot of the scope hands on comes from known goods. I try to scope as much as possible even if I do it on my own time ( which I do all the time). That’s a great video though. Keep them coming.
@@gcmd5852 I’ve seen a lot of your FB posts, some great tests you’ve done there, I’ve saved a few 👍
@@gcmd5852 Awesome!
Fantastic informative video thanks, will take a look at my Honda CRV with over 360,000 miles I think it’s stretched 😂..
Haha! It might be good, it is a Honda after all! Let me know what you find 👍
Thank you for these two videos, they were eye opening for me. They provide excellent explanation, focusing on the topic, with all important details shown, compared, repeated, etc. This is 1Mx better than most of the YT videos on diagnosing and repairing cars.
I have a few questions:
(1) Apparently, N47 has no VANOS. Can the same measurement be done on a VANOS engine? If yes, how can I interpret the result? In that case the relative angle of the camshaft sensor will not be constant due to the VANOS regulation.
(2) I'm trying to investigate the timing chain(s) of an N73 engine. Can I do the same measurement on this engine? Can it be done on the two cylinder banks separately, one by one?
(3) If replacement is necessary is it possible to replace N73 chains without removing the engine and the cylinder heads? (BMW documentation suggests digging out the whole engine and fully disassembling it, including removing the heads, which is a huge trouble, of course.)
Thank you in advance, all thoughts are appreciated.
Hi, thanks for the message. We only get VANOS in Petrol engines, however it should be adjusting at idle. You could did the test with the disconnected, but your known good would have to be in the same state. You can do the same test on the V engine, you’d be better off with a 4 channel scope. I’ve never done chains on the N73, but I’d imagine you are better taking the engine out. Maybe have a look around, I’m sure someone will have made a video. Cheers
Needed to get a cam+crank trace for nearly 5 years on my VW T5. After watching this video I bought a 2204A and the Hantek leads. Fingers crossed I get to the end of this problem.
Cool, it’s a great tool! What problem are you having?
@@MechanicMindset Had the cam changed a few years ago, ever since then it's not started with the cam sensor connected. I suspect it's this issue: dgmotorservices.co.uk/blog/?p=385 but I've never found a garage willing to go to this level of diagnosis.
@@seanhood980 That is odd. Any fault codes? Just trying to think what you can get wrong on that engine 🤔
From personal experience, I bought a 320d With an N47 engine (08 plate) about 4 years ago and only realised what the issue with the timing chain is after I purchased the car. Then I was a bit concerned so I decided to call BMW and ask them regarding the timing chase issue. Interestingly, they then confirmed that there was a recall on these engines and BMW confirmed that the timing chain tensioner was replaced with the new type due to the known issues. So, I would suggest to anyone having any concerns with the timing change (you are right, it is more the tensioner than the chain itself) to call BMW and ask them for this timing chain tensioner replacement scheme - free of charge of course. The car was on 74000, now on 116800 after 4years, and still running
Thanks for sharing!
Cheers Darren enjoying your channel great info on the advanced triggers in Pico, if u want better detail for longer captured just up sample rate to 500mhz cheers sandy
sandy anderson Cheers will give it a go. Thanks for watching 👍
Very nice videos. Did you use the "automotive" software or the standard software in your 2204 scope in this video?
Just the standard Pico 6. I don’t really use the automotive software - the real benefits of that kit come with the hardware and the Pico support accounts (I.e waveform library). Other than that, the software is pretty much the same. Pico 6 actually has more features like spectrum mode for frequency measurements!
Thanks for the great videos, a real education. I'm having a similar issue with my wife's 3 series, only it won't start at all. I've ordered a pico after watching your other videos so I can check through the fuel system and crank timing. How would I find out which cables to probe on the ecu for the crank and cam sensor? I'm guessing they wouldn't be the same.
Thanks again for the great content and Atb to you.
Great, happy they help! I have a schematic in this video and mention the pin numbers. If you have the same N47 engine, I would guess they are the same. 🤞
@@MechanicMindset thanks, I'll report back!
That timing chain was fine just like mine was when I replaced mine.. It's just piece of mind now they're done though!
George Austers Yeah I compared the old with the new when it was out, no stretch or damage. I reckon it was the tensioner that was the issue. Like you say, best to be replaced for piece of mind, they can make a right mess!!
Great! BMW should offer that test to every unfortunate N47 owner...
Haha....And then replace all the faulty units!
,In a 60-2, 1 tooth is 12*. The engine rotate 720 for a full cycle. So it was 20 degrees out.
Hi Darren mine has the same problem on my 320d a rattle and ticking noise how much money am i looking at to get a new one fitted? and thanks for the video i found it really helpful
Glad you enjoyed the video. If you find a good independent BMW shop, I would say in the region of £1000 but depends. You can get aftermarket parts for a decent price now
nice
Thanks!
Any advice on why my car wont start after a replacement it turns over, it died when in motion would anything be cutting it off from firing up due to shut down?😊
hi good video would those pin connections be the same on my 2011 x3 n47 cheers
It’s likely, but best check. You’ll soon know if they aren’t
just subsc!!
Excellent!
Great video I think I have same problem with mine n47 engine don't make any noise from cold start. Starts ticking once engine warm constantly ticking once engine reaches its temp. Do you think its timing chain been 2 garages and they aint got a clue. Its loudest is it the back injector. Thanks
Gaz Logan Thanks. Sorry but it’s hard to say without checking the timing or seeing the car myself. It could be anything. Although the chains are usually worse when stated from cold. Best find a good local independent BMW shop 👍
What would picscope you would recommend for tracing faults on newer BMW's. Can I use a scope to trace ground loop noise audible in speakers..? What scope will be good enough?
WizRumburak The scope I use here (2204A) is good for most tests, it’s really cheap too. The 4425A is the ultimate PicoScope for automotive, much higher ‘resolution’. I’ve not done much audio diagnostics with the scope. The non automotive scopes (like this 2204A) has a spectrum analyser mode which is more suited for frequency measurements. That might help pick up noise, but you might have to search through the frequency ranges to find your problem and will only confirm the noise you can hear. Locating the issue might be a bit more complicated. Something I must look in to 👍
Just wanted to ask how you removed the high pressure pump sprocket, did you put the cover back on and use the tool from the timing kit perhaps. I think I maybe changing my timing change soon, I’ve done one these before on a 118d but I had the engine out so used a different method to get the sprocket off.
Cheers, Chris.
Yeah, I just used the tools from the timing kit 👍
i know this is an old video out of curiosity someone i know has an E90 LCI 318D N47 engine it doesn't rattle only for around 3-4seconds on a cold start then completely silent but it'll randomly have fluctuations in the RPM or stall out occasionally but be fine after a restart, if you tap the accel while it's fluctuating the rpm's steady out aswell and some days it's fine some days it does it once or twice it's very random any idea what the cause of that could be? thinking maybe something todo with the EGR or DPF potentially a vacuum leak or sensor somewhere just looking for confirmation.
Yes, could be fuel or compression related. Especially if the chain has jumped or is slack. Hard to say without seeing it
That’s a very interesting video indeed....! Might be no harm now to carry out this check my wife’s 130,000mile x1 to see if it’s chain time or not ......!
Yes it's worth a look!
The tensioner can be leaking at the back if the seal is going out
Tensioner should be a service item in these engines 🤣
How does one find (or purchase from) detailed schematics like this? Especially if I'm not a service technician, but rather a curious owner of a specific model?
There’s a free app called Carmin that’s. It’s limited but has quite a bit on there.
very painful replacement job for BMW N-engines which the chain is behind, inaccessible unless the transmission is off. I see BMW tech bulletin 1131544 replacing timing chain by riveting, only replaces top-shaft chain. Do you think the middle chain(crank-fuel pump) needs replacement also?
Hi, yes we usually just replace all the chains; they all come in a reasonably priced kit. But yes, not the easiest to access, but once the gearbox is out and the sump is off, you're good to go! Cheers
the issue w/ bad timing chain, does it affect N47 engine or certain year model of N47 is not so bad after all? thank you
In my experience, they all need doing at some point. Not sure if they made a change. I’ve not seen any require a second chain
Should I get the timing chain kit or just the chain? I'm cheap if I can be.
Same 😂. Get the kit - I got the kit from Euro Car Parts. They do a great kit we use all the time, good price and they usually have offers when you order online 👍
@@MechanicMindset How much for it? And what brand is it?
Mate how long ( hours wise ) did it take u to replace the whole lot
marin khan Hi, I was taking my time, but I’d probably say about 8+ hours on my own - it’s a days work atleast. Although it depends on the configuration. This auto transmission takes longer to remove and I had to lift the engine off the mounts to get the sump out. Some people just take the engine out.
Hey, I did a reading and I am having 1.1 degree drift from crankshaft angle on camshaft on the first measurement and 38 degrees on the difference between both channels. Any thoughts on how much of a divergence of the angle reading is still acceptable mechanically for N47 engine before replacement? I have this chain for 66k km of mileage.
Hi, I have seen a few that are still running ok with 38 degrees difference. 1 degree drift is no where near as bad as this car. Do you have any noises from the chain? Has the car had a chain before already?
@@MechanicMindset Yes, the characteristic noises are there, but not so loud yet. I can hear them especially when the engine is warming up after a few hundred meters passed and when it is hot. This is the first chain (E90 LCI 2011), so it wasn't much driven (with this mileage), yet it is quite aged.
@@theAFKeyboard Sounds like it’s time! 😬
@@MechanicMindset Yup, it sound so hahaha. Very helpful video. Keep it up!
Hi there hope u well please can you help me some advice. I have a n47 1.6 2013 just on 60k on cold morning start I get a one to two second rattle then quickly goes away. I can switch off engine straight the way and start again while cold and wouldn't do it again. Only does it when sat there few hours and cold engine. Engine otherwise sounds very quiet no strange rattle on idle or throughout rev range drivers fine without issues. One person said can be cam solenoid or even tensioner. Car has full service history oil changes all the time. Any information will help me thanks
Hi, these engines don’t have a ‘cam solenoid’, no variable timings. It could be the top tensioner which shouldn’t be too difficult to change. If it’s never had chains, that sounds like the preferred repair. A tensioner might get rid of the noise but we can’t say what condition the chains are in. Also if the timing has jumped (which will also cause issues over time). Best to find a good independent garage to diagnose 👍
I just did this test on a 2008 123d with 100k on the clock. I got virtually no flutter between the cam and crank but I did measure 35 degree so it looks to be 5 degrees off without any chain noise while running cold or hot. The tensioner bolt is the old large 27mm one suggesting its never been done. I have a chain noise when I stop the engine though. Can you advise if mine is 5 degrees out does that mean that the valve timing is out by 5 degrees or is there some way the ecu can correct that? So over time the chain stretches and timing goes out? - this surely happens on all timing chains in all engines so over time do all engines get messed up valve timing??
Hi, I have seen some running fine where the timing is slightly different. Not sure exactly why this is! If unsure, best get the timing tools out. Chains should last forever and in my early days working at BMW (in the 2000s) I changed hardly any at all. If you have the noise and it’s never been done, it might be time. Mine is on 200k miles and not sure if it’s ever been done. Got a slight noise on start up so going to try replacing the tensioner. I’ll check the timing with scope too 👍
Hello. Just for information I checked my timing with the tool and the top chain was tight with no play on the links around the socket. The timing tool fitted perfectly and notches lined up perfectly so with 100k miles on a 2008 123d it looks like it's OK. As far as I know it's on the original chain/tensioner. I measured 35 degrees with the pico scope
I bought an e90 2008 with 200k mileage, there are no bad sounds or anything while driving but should I get someone to check the timing chain
Wouldn't hurt! Although at 200k, I would think it had one already!
@@MechanicMindset I hope you’re right, thanks for replying
I measured 3 client cars, no noise at all, f series n47, all measure arround 38-42 degrees
Yeah, I have also noticed varying readings between vehicle with no faults. Not sure how to explain this currently!
Could be a slight difference in camshaft timing tools? But that wouldn’t make sense as we have the dots to align on the cam sprockets..... 🤷♂️
@@MechanicMindset i have to say i've been mechanic in offecial bmw garage, and did a lot of chain replacements, most of them preventive, never saw one with spot on timing, as in timing tool lays not flat on the head. Later we had the call back action were we needed to check the tensioner ect, same, not one with correct timing, there must be a big tollerance in those ecu's before triggering cam fault i supose
Does the n47 have two cam shaft and is so is the single cam line represent both?
@@carclips6401 It has 2x gear driven. Sensor is on intake 👍
I just bought a 2013 bmw x1 16d.. n47 engine 2000cc Diesel turbo.. 147000km.. am I going to have problems with the timing chain? Thanks
Possibly. Do you have any history to confirm if it has already been done? Good news is that the repair is a lot cheaper than it used to be 🤞
@@MechanicMindset I have to ask it.. why is it cheaper? Thanks for the answer
@@riccardomarzotto7974 Cost of parts is much less now - no need to get genuine BMW parts
Hey i have a problem, i replace chain on 320d and when engne working sound is ticking like spaner or injecto
Hi, I suppose it could be many things. It’s hard to say without looking
@@MechanicMindset but i change kit of chain with spaner, then put new vp pump. Maby its not good in timing fire
@@valcic1993 Sorry, not sure. If you turned the engine over x2 and re check timing before you started engine it should be ok
@@MechanicMindset yes i check camshaft timing with tool thats ok. Maby vp 44 is not 100% in time
Can i send you video of working motor?
On your mail
at a quick guess 5 more degrees and an intake valve will have been kissed
More than likely. I have had them come in still running with valve kissing piston! 😱
Looks like engine mounts are gone... Engine is vibrating badly.
I think it is the refresh rate on the camera. If you see my other videos with the fiesta 3 cyl, that looks really bad too. But in real life they are fine. Also worth noting that the BMW has active engine mounts. They go soft at idle to reduce cabin vibration, and stiffened up under load 👍
It's the guides made of plastic crap