@@toteoma3034The 1950s foods were disgusting. I have a 1959 Betty Crocker cookbook i bought out of curiosity, and its repulsive. Thank goodness for Julia Child to introduce real cooking!
You found ONE of the fetal flaw in the video, yet no one is pointing out. Be aware, these flaws are not indicative of flaws that exist in the Lifestyle. Just this video. Thus this video is pretty unfair, and is now a strawman. The video has a few major errors, and Dr. Jordan seems to not have understood the community. Thus, the video suffers from a weird “True Wayism” that seems to try to discredit the entire movement by pigeonholing us all into a specific relationship standard that we don't even agree with. What more, Dr. Jordan Cooper does this to such an extent, that he makes our entire movement into something it's not, and something that is clearly broken. Fact: the TRAD wives movement isn't based on 1950's. 1950's Trad Wives are a subset of the larger Trad wives movement. Most TRAD relationships are not this way, only some of them are. The Larger TRAD Wives movement does not put a year or ideal on this. And then there is Domestic Discipline, which encompasses the TRAD Wives movement, but includes reverse gender roles where the woman takes the lead. Example 1, For instance, many Muslims are apart of the TRAD wives movement, and they certainly are not modelling their relationships after leave it to beaver. Example 2, many women work in TRAD wives relationships, and are not stay at home moms. Example 3, I've never heard anyone advocating for solo parenting, or for isolation. Quite the opposite, we always see this type of relationship as a partnership. Church and other community supports are a common part of the discussions. Example 4, I've never heard anyone claim they want to model their relationship after a bad TV show "Leave it to beaver." Most TRAD wives instead base their relationship after the Bible or the Koran. Example 5, I've seen both Christians and Muslims TRAD wives support non-monogamous relationships. Example 6, Many TRAD relationships do NOT give all the power to the man. Specifically, the woman is said to have control at home, while the man is in control of his carrier. I've known more TRAD wives to be in control of the finances then the man. Example 7, I've heard many TRAD relationships that support Domestic Discipline for the husband as well.
I think the appeal for us younger men is that the “traditional” (as we know it) model pushes back against the modern trend. The dating scene is abysmal for many today, and people are looking for solutions that generally worked, even if they’re idealized and misunderstood. People must have some kind of model, and I think the tradwife movement symbolizes the search for something that works in society.
@@DrJordanBCooper Thank you. I suppose that’s where figures like yourself need to step in. I think there’s a tectonic shift in the way society and relationships are working and I find it discouraging when leaders in the church are unprepared and frankly, ignorant to the signs of trouble. It’s very troubling when you have a large population of single young men that are angry.
@@MiguelGebremedhin Glad to have your perspective. I am a bit older and was raised just as the wave of "women's rights" and divorce was beginning to rise. I think Dr. Cooper's best point is that the community that once supported traditionalism is GONE. We can't go back. But we can try to bring virtue forward to our time. I am sorry to hear so many young men are so disillusioned. Don't give in and don't give up. Best to you, Miguel.
@Miguel G Especially to your last part. It's amazing how blind people are to it. People wonder why mass shootings are common, that's a big reason why.
@@MiguelGebremedhin Alot of young men need to focus on self-improvement, that is part of growing up. Anger is just what happens when you resist the unstoppable force of reality. That's a tough pill to swallow in such a narcissistic age, of course, but there's no sugar-coating it. The tradwife thing just seems like people that are being naive. There's a difference between having conservative values, and seeing the past in an overly romantic way. Reading more books critical of the history is useful to understand the limitations in idolizing the past (and not just dismissing critical historiography as "woke"), and helping to build a better future in the present.
Very well articulated, and you put the argument succinctly with the point “traditional family requires traditional society.” Indeed, in many discussions “nuclear family” and “traditional family” are conflated, which is a mistake. “Pornifiction of tradition” was also an outstanding phrase-completely agree.
Yeah, I'm glad to hear the distinction between 1950s nuclear family and the traditional extended family unit. Clans and tribes are much more "traditional" than the lone nuclear family.
I would have also added the traditional rural society/life (rather than traditional city). The whole family worked together on the farm and often the extended families worked on each other's farms. etc.
The biggest problem with recreating the 1950's is dealing with the fact that the 1950's created the 1960's. There is really some kind of super masochistic death spiral we are on where we want to keep doing this nonsense over and over and over again.
Pendulum Swing on a loop. 1950s is a swing from the 1940s when women were working while men were away at war, they had a taste of independence and getting a paycheck. They discovered they had options and when the men came back, they took notice and reminded women they need to be barefoot and pregnant again. And the daughters got sick of their fathers treatments of their mother and in comes the 1960s. This Tradwife movement is not thoroughly thought out, the fact that they record themselves doing chores, and trying to get attention is not traditionalism. Are they doing it for their family or for their own image, are they doing this to counter and trigger the Feminist movement... then its for all the wrong reasons, its as bad as people who fall in love for the sake of falling in love, they overlook red flags of their prospective partners because they're so caught up in the movement and impressing their social circle of tradwife friends. Their daughters will become feminists in a couple of decades.
@@Dilley_G45 Genesis says that a man will "rule over" his wife. Anyone who thinks this is always accomplished politely is a fool. And those who are instead ruled by their wives are doubly so.
@@Catholic-Perennialist I agree that something is missing from Dr. Cooper's (brief) presentation on this point. My experience has been that politeness towards a woman invites domination from her and furthermore is never appreciated. But we have to be careful with "ruling over". As a comparison, being given dominion over the earth does not imply the command to cut down every last tree. The silent, attached meanings we apply to "rule over" are almost certainly not the same as they were 3,000 years ago. But I agree that "polite" is not enough and is sometimes counterproductive.
Off topic, I know: but that is a heck of a jacket. Moving on, this is excellent. I have three daughters (18, 17, and 16). They are increasingly bombarded with the Andrew Tates of the world on one side, and this postmodern (?) version of the traditional wife/woman ethos (which goes well beyond biblical descriptors of womanhood) on the other. I don't know where they will find a good man (they certainly are all but absent in the modern church). I'm excited to show this to them (and to my own wife). I want them to know there is a better way for understanding this discussion. Also, discussions like this make me want to be a better husband and dad. Thank you.
You have to go to a traditional church. I was that "pretty girl that someone is going to snatch up," and it didn't happen, for the reasons you gave. Hopefully, I can spare your daughters some of my pain. If they want to start a family, it's not going to be at a Baptist/Evangelical/Non-denominational church. Try Catholic (TLM), Orthodox, and high church Lutheran. You'll still have your Tates and Born Again Blow-up Dolls, but that's also where the good men are. I hope they don't have to go through what I did.
Traditional homes operated with the help of Grandparents, Uncles and Aunts, adult siblings, and not just a few cousins. All this operated within a vibrant local church. My parents grew up in a Trad. community like that in the 1930s, and I grew up the same way in t6he same community in the 1950s and 1960s.
Thanks for mentioning that women were isolated and they needed to interact with others and they were getting depressed. Also thanks for saying that no one can be a super person and do everything and get it done by themselves.
I'm thankful that I have a wife who homeschools my kids, teaches them scripture, feeds my family, is understanding and kind, and was willing to let me lead her out of Calvinism into confessional Lutheranism. God be praised for s good wife. As much as I enjoy good traditions it's much better to have a wife that is biblical and keeps the faith.
In my seminary class, only real doctrinal differences came down pretty much to the sacraments. We compared confessions like the 39 Articles (reformed camp) and the Augsburg.
@@felixcharles9773 Articles are very Reformed. Article 17 and the Articles on the Sacraments alone are enough for them to be in the Reformed camp. They’re as Reformed as any other Confessions of the 1500s. CofE was a signature to the Canons of Dort.
@Psalm 144:1 The doctrine of the Eucharist appears Reformed (and I mean truly of Calvin and not how the modern Reformed treat the Eucharist), but the Articles as a whole are not wholly and solidly Reformed. I think you see a mix of some Reformed, Lutheran, and Roman Catholic concepts.
Thank you so much for pointing out that women have become so isolated because of car dependent suburbs. Corporate media the auto industry and dividing cities up based on wealth has made the family unit so obsolete. I would love to see this video go viral
Another big difference is the Economic differences. That 1950's idea was only supportable due to the best economy America had ever enjoyed. Prior to that, women worked constantly just to maintain a home, just look at the Amish, where women work hard and long to maintain the household.
In traditional societies children weren't sitting at home doing their homeschooling with mama, and they weren't off at some public school. Most children were working as soon as they were of helpful age. I say this as someone who homeschools 3 children (mainly because I don't think public schools are an option these days, and private schools went Covid mad as well).
My wife became a full time mother and homemaker after our son was born. Initially it was for health reasons. That was 42 years ago. It helped that she had a college degree in home economics, when people valued such things enough to study it). She is also not a feminist, so to her it as an honor to be a full time homemaker. We both decided that homemaking can be a career if you can afford it and desire it. We learned to be extremely frugal. I learned many skills to repair my home and appliances so we could afford our lifestyle. She learned gardening. She had friends who were also full-time homemakers. This “traditional” approach is not what most Americans desire, I realize. It has been, however a great blessing to us. Neither of us believe it is a sin not to choose this route for other reasons, as this is the category of nature more than grace.
I think any sort of "traditional" marriage is going to have a far more (dare I say) complementarian aspect to it than what is being expressed as desirous here. When you look at agrarian communities, men and women share in the work of making a family, farm, and business (and more!) work together and flow smoothly. There's really no sharp delineation between parent, homemaker, and breadwinner. The husband and wife share in different aspects of it.
Yeah this whole idea of complementarianism was just a product of the industrial revolution. For Christian (or other religious) traditions that have roots predating the industrial revolution I think not only do we already have examples of an actual traditional family structure in our past to aspire to, but they're far better ones than the modern invention of the complimentarian relationship and the nuclear family.
@harrygarris6921 I'm not sure the postindustrial vision is complementarian in any true or meaningful sense. When one whole sphere of family life is the sole domain of either husband or wife, they cannot care for or complement each other (or help each other in the task of providing for and running a home and family).
Besides the nuclear family phenomenon, the problem with the tradwife is that the tradcity doesn't exist anymore. Mixed use buildings are what makes trad work. The man works at home and so does the wife. Or they at least work in close proximity to each other, their home, and their community.
Our cities are literally monuments to greed. When God made a home for man, it was a garden. The man and the woman didn't need pharmaceutical products or credit card reward points. They were naked and they had absolutely everything they needed. I get angry whenever I hear b*omers extol the virtues of Capitalism and blame every bad thing on Marxism, as if they were synonymous with Good and Evil. There's a third option. Build an economy around people instead of around either corporations or government. You can have a market economy without usury, and you can have progress without the uneven scales called "intellectual property". Above all of that, you can have freedom without insider trading, bribery, and corruption. They have the audacity to complain that the world has changed when they spent the last 70 years selling every valuable thing they they had for temporary wealth. Now the moths have eaten their nice clothes. The thieves have broken in and stolen all their pretty gems and crystals. And all the gold has turned to rust. If they had just been a little more careful in their reckless pursuit of riches, maybe we wouldn't be waist-deep in internet porn, drinking water contaminated by birth-control hormones. It seems we are in the times when "the love of many shall grow cold". Now, more than ever, the church needs to hold together and embody a radical culture od generosity and sacrificial love. Like one body. We can get through this together... but what an uphill battle it will be. Lord help us all.
I don't know if you cover this in "5 Problems with the Trad Movement" (will watch that next) but what I would also mention about this idealized suburbia is that it gave rise to a massive father hunger. Dads were providing all the material goods their kids could want but those kids didn't have their DADS. Hence the "free love" movement where girls searched for that fatherly love in sexual encounters and men searched for a sense of manhood in sexual encounters.
A real father can show his love and acceptance towards his children even while working full time. What a child needs is stability, and Mom being there instead of them at a sitters or home alone while she is at work. There are far more divorces now with both parents working. How is the benifial for the children?
@@shirleysmith4614Ask Divorce Lawyers tho... guess who struggles the most post-divorce.... SAHM. Husbands leave them for a younger woman, mom usually is stuck with the kids and if its really traditional, they have 4 or 5 kids average, and no man with good principles wants to take that on, they want to start their own fro. scratch wirh someone they deem "pure". Moms can not live off of child support or alimony, so they have to get out to work, but with what experience? No experience means low wages. Even mothers with degrees and ivy league credentials who post poned their career for 10 years, are often chosen last and if selected, their salary does not reflect what they deserve given their qualities prior to being a SAHM. This is why some mothers work during marriage, but they work from home so that their resumes dont show a huge pause. Being a SAHM is a stigma for most of modern society and women who give up their career for their children are often times more than not, looked down upon and perceived as "dumb" by the corporate world.
Thank you SO MUCH for articulating this!! I’ve been unnerved & disturbed by the “trad” profiles (lady or man owned), but couldn’t put my finger on why. Especially as I love living in the country and all…it’s just not the same as “trad living” (and I am A-OK with that!).
I think the TradWife movement has been immensely helpful in highlighting a healthy alternative to the modern female ideal of a 9-5 working mum. The tradwife ideal has helped putting a beautiful picture on something much more natural and an ideal closer to the Scriptural ideal of womanhood, Titus 2:3-5. Though it might have a few just short-comings I think it is a very important counter-view to the dominant perspective which is much, much worse. Lastly, I think the criticism of the traditional housewife in a modern society is somewhat mistaken. Why would we believe there that is a juxtaposition between a modern stay-at-home mum taking care of family, children and house, and a social closeknit life with friends and families? Wives meet, play dates between the children of different families allow the mothers some well-deserved time for socializing and entertainment with other adult women while the children play with each other.
@@christinerosenquist7657 Not trying to be contentious here but you haven’t actually answered his question. He asked why a wife can’t have friends and raise her kids not whether or not she can be with her friends all the time or if her husband helps with the kids or not.
All good points, but I would refer you to my comment under the video where I described one of the shortcomings of trying to be a traditional family in a non-traditional society. If you lack extended family support, that can be a big problem. Also, I've noticed something about friendships with other moms my age. They inevitably have to occur during playdates, which are rife with noise and constant interruptions, therefore they tend to be superficial and not like the very close "best friendships" many girls had when they were younger. I would argue that role is rightly shifted to the husband, but I still find that my friendships with other women are less than satisfying. And as the other replier mentioned, being a homemaker takes a lot of work, and there isn't a whole lot of time or opportunity to do playdates anyway. With a robust community of extended family around to help, a lot of these problems would be solved. I'm not going to abandon our traditional lifestyle because we can't live in the ideal traditional society. It's still much better than the alternative, but these are real problems.
Didn't realize there was a Tradwife Phenomenon going on. Although your description of the stay-at-home wife/mother in the suburbs perfectly describes my upbringing during the 1960s.
The nuclear family got that name for a reason. It came about in the same age as we were discovering the field of atomic science. It's about as "traditional" as the scientific discipline itself is, no more than 100 years.
Most trad wives are just in it for the cottage core aesthetic from my experience, not actually bettering themselves into tradwives. A lot of trad women that *aren't* in that camp are former leftist women who are older and just now became trad, for various reasons. Not all of them Godly though.
Without starting at an analysis of the "trad wife" phenomenon, I have been independently thinking about the bits of advice you gave at the end: finding a functional role in society, the value of finding a wife and starting a family, etc, largely initiated by studying the topic of Inanna-Ishtar/Mary/Babalon. Interesting synchronicity there.
Love listening to Dr. Cooper seriously discuss a meme. That’s at least how I see the trad wife stuff. It’s just a meme joke about some idealized version of women. I always get a laugh from them when I see them.
One of the most impactful books I've ever read was Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam, where he discusses the decline of civic and social involvement in America. I agree with your first point that traditional living involved living in share community, civic and social engagement, and close familial ties (both geographical and relationally) that would be lacking in this distorted view of "trad life". I think traditional family life is important for Christians, and as a means of truly countering post-modern life, but in a way that's authentic and not gimmicky.
The New Deal lead to wealthy reactionary figures like William Randolph Hurst dumping money into right wing libertarian think tanks and paying off preachers (even Billy Graham) and eventually that took its toll on society in response to this "gospel" of individualism and dog-eat-dog capitalism.
I'm with the tradwives. My wife and I have lived this way for 16 years now (13 with a son) and we're both very glad we did. And I do find it to be traditional, living more or less along the lines of traditional values, though what it looks like might change with advances in technology, etc. I also think that the promotion of this lifestyle would be a major step toward gradually changing "society" back into a traditional one as well, for whatever that's worth. And you don't explain why you think it's "an impossibility" for some/most women to live in that way, but thankfully we have examples that prove the contrary. I don't think this tradwife "phenomenon" is incompatible or at odds in any way with society being more traditional, being concerned with extended family or even having them live in the same house. But it's not necessary either. It's also not unrealistic to expect your wife to take care of "everything" around the house, since that "everything" isn't everything. Traditionally, the man does whatever repair work needed around the house, mows the lawn, etc. in addition to the full-time job the wife doesn't have to worry about. Finally, just because people in general make things look nicer for the purposes of whatever video they're putting on social media, doesn't mean we can single tradwives out for it. I have seen a *few* channels that were obviously fetishizing being a tradwife, but for the most part they are about cooking and cleaning, dressing modestly, etc. Good on you, though, for pointing out the hypocrisy of men saying they want a tradwife but not themselves acting in traditional ways (loving and honoring the wife, showing they are willing and able to provide for and protect them).
Good to see this video. I’ve been moving towards wanting to be more traditional and came to the conclusion that it’s more than being the wife that stays at home to cook, clean and watch the kids. It should extend further than that. Community and especially with family is very important.
Dr Cooper, there is a fun word that is used online to describe the kind of ostentatious behaviors you see online. Larp: short for Live Action Role Playing The "Tradwife" phenomenon is a bunch of Larp
Great thoughts. I think you absolutely nailed it in that the type of man who wants a tradwife either wants a woman roleplaying as such or thinks such a woman will be easier to control because that type of man doesn't respect women.
Traditional gender roles are not bad or wrong in themselves, the problem comes when a husband has a sense of entitlement and demands that his wife should live according to those roles.
While some women certainly get into the tradwife thing for attention or just because they like the aesthetic, I think it's also being used by others as a visible way of separating themselves from mainstream culture. Similar to men who always wear suits and make it a point to talk like characters from a movie made in the 1940's, like that guy who does those fast food reviews. It may be eccentric, and some certainly take it too far, but I don't know that it's necessarily a bad thing. It stems from a desire to set oneself apart from the rest of society. A lot people, especially younger people, simply don't know how to do that in any better way. Also, it's not a good idea to take anything said on 4chan seriously. It's common to go on there and deliberately act like the worst caricature of people you disagree with, either to make that group look bad or just for the fun of it. I used to do that all the time, mostly for the fun of it.
There are a number of errors in this video. I'm not usually picky, but the TRAD wife / Domestic Discipline lifestyle is much broader then just the 1950's girls you are talking about. It encompasses all sorts of times, and practices. Typically, the TRAD wife movement is based on the real idea that Men traditionally held the dominant roles, whereas the larger domestic discipline is more flexible. This is contrary to your claim that it is based on 1950s. Yes, SOME TRAD Wives do “1950 Traditional Marriages,” but certainly not all of them (like me). I have talked to MANY Muslims, and many people, they all did things differently. I also do not believe any credible person is preaching for the woman to be isolated or solo in her position. This is not how it works, at all, and will not work. I've never seen anyone propose the things you say, and you seem to be a weird type of Truewayer, who is more about bashing. Dr. Jordan, I don't think you understand the community at all.
Thank you Dr. Cooper! I’m a very conservative Christian, but was never really drawn to the trad wife movement as I didn’t think it was necessarily equivalent with the idea of a good and Godly wife. I also feel like it gives men an out with their responsibilities of raising and being very involved with their children as well which has had detrimental consequences societally. Thanks again!
Very useful! We have drifted far from time honored tradition in virtually every way. It is a hopeful sign I guess that there are young people who are trying to find it again. But at the same time, it is not something that can easily be recovered again, and certainly not in a Tick Toc video. The best place to start is not in trying to recapture the 1950’s, but by going to Holy Scripture. There you will find the counsel of God for husbands and wives for all times and cultures.
Hi Dr. Cooper, I enjoyed this video and your thoughts on it, and I am hoping maybe you could address some antidotes to the problem of family formation (both meeting a spouse and having children) in a future video, which you somewhat touched on here. Dating/meeting spouses has become a bit of a cess put for most (which may produce some of the problems you acknowledge, the channel Whatifalthist has a great video on the problems) and it has be come so expensive to even have children that it becomes incredibly stressful and delayed. I am married and my wife and I both work and are educated, and we still aren't established/wealthy enough to afford children, and women often push off having children or feel guilty working instead of staying at home, as it is too expensive not to work. It sounds like taking advantage of family and community is the key, but I know that's not always option. I would be interested to hear your opinions on possible ways to address these issues if possible. Cheers!
Love this. Perfect video. Just think how many people (women) are beating themselves up trying to meet an impossible standard. I find it interesting (?) that even men who know nothing about the Bible, believe women should be submissive but have not a single clue what their responsibilities are. I guess the scarier part is thinking how that may have been modeled in their families as they were growing up.
Wouldn't adding the element of isolation, and a requirement for a dozen children, when none is suggested to begin with, count as a logical fallacy of some sort? I missed the bit where these women are suggesting either of those things.
A straw man argument is a logical fallacy of distorting an opposing position into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version. The person using the strawman pretends to attack their opponent’s stance, while in reality they are actually attacking a distorted version of that stance, which their opponent doesn’t necessarily support. The technique often takes quotes out of context or, more often, incorrectly paraphrases or summarizes an opponent's position.
How realistic is it that women in the 50s were at home in the suburbs on their own not talking to anyone, watching soaps and speaking to their friends by phone? The suburbs in this picture we're drawing would have lines upon lines of nuclear family homes, therefore a woman at home in each house, not communicating with each other? A time when most people went to church, what about the community they would find there? You go to church each Sunday, speak to other people and especially other women. Gives you a chance to meet other women if you are alone. Also this was a time when families had washing machines, dryers, microwaves etc. gadgets that would free a lot of time for women. The children go off to school at a young age. I wasn't a tradwife in the 1950s but it doesn't sound like the image painted is feasible.
I was with you until the end when it seems like you think men who want a woman who is modest, not sleeping around, has traditional moral values, wants a family, etc. are often misogynistic. I don't think the latter applies to most men who have traditional values. Most men I encounter like that simply want a woman who will say faithful to them, share regular moments of physical intimacy with them, and be grateful for what he does for her, and they're annoyed or upset that they can't even find that. There are some of those chauvinistic or misogynistic men, but they're a minority of men who want to be married with children, because I would say most guys like that don't want to be married, but are instead the minority group who take advantage of the hypersexualized culture and hypergamous attitude of women. The other guys want a Disney princess or fictional waifu type girl that may be strong, independent, and adventurous, but also loves her husband like Giselle from Enchanted.
Oh certainly not. I am a man who wanted precisely those things, and I think that most decent men do. I'm just talking about some of the rhetoric in the radtrad sphere.
@@DrJordanBCooper Okay. I haven't seen that, but I guess I'm not exposed to those areas. I don't use 4Chan. The worst I usually see are the really progressive attitudes on Reddit that suck you in wanting to say something only to regret it after seeing how people respond negatively to almost any traditional Christian view.
I’m gonna be honest cause I’m a little frustrated, what can we do instead of the tradwife thing? Cause I honestly have no idea. I’m a young woman and I’m just trying to do my best here. So what can I do to have a good life if society won’t let it happen? This is hopeless.
I'm not saying you *can't* do it, but don't go into it without understanding the difficulties. Surround yourself with family/community as much as possible.
@@DrJordanBCooper You actually said you can't do it, because apparently all TradWives are isolated and not with a partner, and has no community. I'm a bit lost, as I don't think my extensive experience with this community is in any way the same as yours. I've never heard anyone advocate for that, and everyone considers this a relationship where the two people support each other. You also had claimed that all TRAD relationships are modelled from 1950's, but that is only one type of TRAD relationships. Ultimately, this video suffers from a weird "TrueWayism," in that you claim all relationships must follow your broken model, and that is just not true. We reject this, extensively.
I feel the difference in a "traditional wife" and what I consider myself, "a modern housewife" is that I have a choice to be a stay at home wife and mom. I do what I want and what I think is best for my family. Which is to prioritize my marriage and family over my career. This has not always been a happy choice but it's important to me and is still A Choice. I don't feel the 1950's traditional wife had a choice.
Excellent reflections Dr Cooper. Thank you. Could have done without the cover, advertising that lady's wares. i understand how it's helpful to get clicks, but also drives more attention to her fetish. I just pray people will listen to what you have to say about it. I agree with the commenter below, you've made an excellent description of the pornification of traditional values, and of everything else. Once we realize that's just a flimsy filter put on everything, people will see its emptiness. (i hope!) Thanks for all you do!
@@DrJordanBCooper I understand your intent. I do hope it drives people to discover you. Side note: From what i understand the effect in the brain is hardly different whether the object is clothed or not if the stimulation is meant to be prurient, i.e., the modern hyper-sensitized lust trigger. Not a comment on your use of it, but the effect of the pornification of anything.
@@dialogos585 It looks like he has now changed the thumbnail to an equally clear but more "tasteful" one. Which i really appreciate, I really appreciate him taking this feedback despite it not being a heavily liked comment.
Judging by the comments, I see that the general ability of most of the commenters to listen and comprehend is about nil. I don’t see you telling people not to get married until society is changed, nor do I see you attacking the actual traditional families. Verbal comprehension seems to be at an all time societal low. I have seen the tradwife phenomenon strike many of my unmarried male peers. It seems to be a mechanism for externalizing the blame for their own personal inability to attract a decent woman. Being an internet theology edgelord is not attractive to women. Virtue, strength, and competence are. Online RadTrad “communities” have a tendency to be quite opinionated, backbiting, and rude - none of which are keys to successful marriage. I second your points made in this video. A lot of these keyboard warriors need to adjust their expectations on both ends - there have never been idealized, virtuous Christian women just floating around. They have always been few, which is why scripture praises them so highly. Additionally, a woman like that is not likely to be attracted to a sweat-stained beast who spends his time trolling feminists on twitter. Men who are competent at their work, venerable in their conduct, and self-sacrificial in all things will not remain single for long. The good Christian men that I know have almost all gotten married (to good women) quite young, with very few exceptions. The ones who didn’t marry young patiently maintained their chastity until a good match came along, and married a bit older. Good women exist.
I support a biblical model of marriage and family, but as a girl, if I stayed home alone all day with nothing to do but house chores, I would lose my mind. Many men who want a "tradwife" just want free sex and a cook, not someone who they actually respect
As with every movement it begins with one small step at a time…and society can be changed back to a more traditional, and sane, and family oriented society. Doc, you are so off base and all over the place. How about Traditional Woman rather than Traditional Wife. Your sort made pansies out of men and real women are hungry for a real man. We, now, have all the conveniences of this era which make life easier and more enjoyable to be home. And who the heck is moving to a cabin in the woods? A Trad woman still takes her kids to sports practice, attends school functions, religious services and does more than cook, clean and eat bon-bons. Those are the places where she meets like minds or working moms dragging their tired bodies to events. In The corporate world women are replaceable; in her family she’s invaluable. Women are finally getting back to being wholesome and feminine. I believe this will rub off on men. For so long, women wanted no respect, rejected being treated like a “lady”, became foul-mouthed and looked like grunge. Do you blame men for being equally disrespectful and foul? Ya got what ya asked for. I have complete faith that a traditional woman’s movement can succeed because women have the spine it takes. Naysayers, like you, just won’t believe in the power of Eve.
There should be nothing wrong with traditional values. However those traditional values should be with in the culture of the day. It should not mean isolation from said society.
I think Cooper has strayed too far into an academic explanation and not a pragmatic one. I see the Tradwife movement as embracing a Biblical view of marriage, of the union of two into one to start a family. Here the male is the head of the household and the female the heart. Broadly speaking, the former provides food, clothing and shelter while the latter physical, mental and emotional nurturing. The objective is raise children to become functioning members of society, and of the world to come. Today new obstacles both blur those roles and make a clear demarkation of them difficult. The culture is overly permissive, the government lax in enforcing laws and providing security and too willing to usurp traditional parental roles and responsibilities, something corporations follow in their advocacy practices for their products/services and hiring. Thus, another need exists to adapt, whether by the man, woman or both, to provide physical security in the home, whether by intrusion or accident such as fire, situational awareness aka 'street smarts' for life outside the home, and mental acuity to offset the rogue individuals and charlaton corporations who would prey on the unsuspecting or inexperienced. Doing this needs a team, starting with a husband and wife, but also spreading to the church.
I think you misunderstand the traditional roles of the family unit. Traditional homes are not dependent on society to be successful. A strong supportive community is important but not required. Society today is the antithesis of traditional families yet the Amish, Mennonite, and other like communities still survive and flourish. As a traditional wife and mother I am certainly not isolated or unfulfilled by any means. Neither is the burden of raising the family squarely on my shoulders alone. You seem to present this as a fantasy but I can tell you this is reality and not at all as you present it.
Jordan, I think you may be overthinking this. Is what theses ladies wanting to imulate so bad? Sure, perhaps not all the pieces are in place in terms of family close by or society is not on board....so what. I believe i grew up in a traditional family and woukd consider my mom to be very traditional. She did not work out of the home until all three of us graduated high school. She wasca stsy at home mom responsibke gor everything insidevtge house. Dsd took csre of everything outside the house. As my father was in the military, we had no blood family ever close by. But i always said growing up i had 2000 parents on the military base. If i was goofing off during flag retreat at 1630, rest assured i woukd hear about it from another parent and my parents would know about when i hot hone. I went into the military myself, married my college sweetheart and had a traditional marriage. She stayed with the kids until they were well into high school but did not have to work. Her support groups was our church womens bible study group and the Officers Wives Club. I applaud the ladies who want to emulate a more traditional family role. What harm can it do? It seems to me a lot better than having a stranger raise your kids while you both work
I think tradwife is more traditional for Americians or modern times vs ancient times. I am very confused on where you get no socializing for tradwives. Homeschooling family are very social. Being in a suburban area means you're around other families. I'd argue today is more isolating than the 1950s. They knew all their neighbors, we don't.
Now you see Mary not knowing where Jesus was when he was in the Temple was something I heard Evangelicals use to say that Mary wasn't a good mother... (yea I know we're not Catholic here, but while I don't worship Mary, accusing her of being a "bad mother" seems a little blasphemous adjacent, but maybe that's just me)
Where's all the pictures of the women slumped over the kitchen counter, puffing a cigarette and downing their benzos with the morning coffee?? I mean we all know the 50s was the decade of housewife syndrome; where's all the realistic photos of depressed women slaving away to care for their manchild and their pet sperm?? Would love to see some dreamy, watercolor photos of their bills too, just to remind people why this is an unattainable fairytale for most people in 2023 where a gallon of milk is 5 dollars.
12 kids? Yeah, of course she’s gonna need help. But lots of SAHMs have 2, 3, or maybe 4 or 5 at the max. In the 50’s and 60’s, during the day time, stay at home moms socialized with neighbors and friends most days - often by necessity as most families only had one car - the men would car pool and leave a vehicle at home. What is exactly wrong with women doing what they want to do? If they want to go out and work in industry, fine. If they want to stay home with the kids and sacrifice their lifestyle, fine? They think they should submit to their husband, fine. They want to dump their lameass husband, fine. Everyone’s so down on these ladies - none of these ladies is forcing anyone to do anything they don’t want
I agree with everything you said about men, but I think there needs to be an equal discussion on women. Husbands and wives need to respect and complement each other, and in my opinion they need to accept that they have been graced with different abilities that make them better at different roles in the family. Men should not act like pigs, but blue haired western feminists are the reason why men are walking away. Let’s have a discussion about this please.
I think you're to focused on the meaning of traditional, it's never going to be 1950's again, its 2023 so you got to adapt "traditional" to the age we live in e.g. tradwife may mean that the wife stays at home and takes care of home/kids, but that doesn't mean that they are isolated, they still live in the age of the internet. You need to consider what traditional means in this day and age, not what it did in 1950's.
As a homeschool kid (now adult), I can affirm that it's all LARPing. Can't stand that Christian Right of 80s/90s junk and don't understand why anyone would want to bring it back -- especially sad that Lutherans are pushing for it now. I thought I got away from it all when I got into Lutheranism and away from the IFB circles I was around before.
Same here. I became Lutheran to get away from that stuff as well. I’m seeing many but not all Lutherans default to RR 80s/90s methodology and reactionism. However, it will not work and I think eventually conservative Lutheranism will take a different path of engagement. Right now everyone is learning how to navigate things and are going with what they know or are comfortable with. We are beyond that and need to leave these old ways of thinking behind as they were abject failures to begin with. I personally think doubling down on the essentials (word, sacrament, Gospel) and emphasis on participation in the divine nature as well as a renewed love of neighbor is the way forward. Right now many are driven by fear and will not take a posture of listening and engaging. Every one is too knee jerk reactionary currently.
@Will Most Exactly. Lutherans are always 2 decades or so behind Evangelicalism. First, in experimental worship, now in culture war. We're acting like we're the first to discover homeschooling -- and the conspiratorial/reactionary baggage -- as an option, meanwhile, me and everyone else who lived through the 90s is like "yeah.. that's a great way to push your kids out of the faith."
Well the ifb is a whole different thing than confessional Lutheranism. Also if I may ask why do you use the word reactionary as if its bad? Doesnt that need qualification? Why did u change from.ifb to Lutheranism? Or am I completely.missing your point?
I agree with all Rev Cooper's points, yet something is missing. Okay, so it was just 11.5 minutes. But if we assume a man abides by Dr. Cooper's exhortations, he still has not recovered a meaningful sense of masculinity. Prioritizing a wife's needs, without an overriding sense of masculineduty, just leads to male subservience and female tyranny, which I what I now see around me. We need the other, invisible, mysterious part to this equation.
That is the reason why the MGTOW (often MGGW called by Christians) philosophy started in the west. MGGW- men going God's way Once you are legally married your wife is basically given a gun that she can use anytime to blow you to legal, financial and social oblivion. I would like to see this topic being seriously addressed by the church.
Does it ever occur to the Dr. that successful traditional families are also forming traditional communities? It should also be understood that the blurring of gender roles precipitates divorce. And women despise nice men.
@@DrJordanBCooper Then I challenge you to highlight the good that is being done by those attempting to return to normalcy, rather than criticizing a whole movement based on its abberants.
Men who say “women despise nice men” are not “nice” men. If you have to insist you are a nice man, you are not a nice man. Women want good men. My husband is a good man. I married him. 🤷♀️
@@thecourtmagician What most women mean by "good" is a man who will hold down a job and not cheat. Beyond that, women have little use for spirituality in a man. Religion is _their_ tool to manipulate men; they take offense when it is weilded by their husbands. Men should strive to be ungodly and godlike, never "nice."
@@Catholic-Perennialist what’s wrong with wanting a man who won’t cheat? When I met my husband, (who was clear before we met that he was a Christian), he was polite, thoughtful, and had many other good qualities. He doesn’t feel the need to talk poorly about women. He has never cheated on me, he does have a decent job (as I did before we had our kid, not that that is a character quality)cares about his family, goes to church…A good man. Not sure what you are trying to say. 🤷♀️
With all due respect, Dr. Cooper, there are two problems that I take issue with. First, like most (if not all) church leaders, you call out only the men and gloss over the fact the feminism and the state did spoil women, religious and secular alike. Second, as far as I can tell, many of those men used to b pleasant before they got their hearts broken for the 100th time by women. As an easterner, I can see that men in the west have been dealt a very bad hand and have been time and time again trampled on, degraded and humiliated all for the sake of appearing impartial. Which made many of those men give up. This is not supposed to be an excuse, but rather an explanation.
If you keep getting a man gets heart broken a hundred times, then theres a problem with him and he should go to therapy instead of lashing out against world like a cynical child.
Calling a 1950s style “tradwife” traditional is like saying Billy Graham is a church father. 😂
Yes, 1950s style wives were pathetic. Just feed the kids TV-Dinners and processed food! I think this type of mother created some modern issues.
I've found my internet community.
@@toteoma3034The 1950s foods were disgusting. I have a 1959 Betty Crocker cookbook i bought out of curiosity, and its repulsive. Thank goodness for Julia Child to introduce real cooking!
Exactly! They're just cosplayers.
You found ONE of the fetal flaw in the video, yet no one is pointing out. Be aware, these flaws are not indicative of flaws that exist in the Lifestyle. Just this video. Thus this video is pretty unfair, and is now a strawman.
The video has a few major errors, and Dr. Jordan seems to not have understood the community. Thus, the video suffers from a weird “True Wayism” that seems to try to discredit the entire movement by pigeonholing us all into a specific relationship standard that we don't even agree with. What more, Dr. Jordan Cooper does this to such an extent, that he makes our entire movement into something it's not, and something that is clearly broken.
Fact: the TRAD wives movement isn't based on 1950's. 1950's Trad Wives are a subset of the larger Trad wives movement. Most TRAD relationships are not this way, only some of them are. The Larger TRAD Wives movement does not put a year or ideal on this. And then there is Domestic Discipline, which encompasses the TRAD Wives movement, but includes reverse gender roles where the woman takes the lead.
Example 1, For instance, many Muslims are apart of the TRAD wives movement, and they certainly are not modelling their relationships after leave it to beaver.
Example 2, many women work in TRAD wives relationships, and are not stay at home moms.
Example 3, I've never heard anyone advocating for solo parenting, or for isolation. Quite the opposite, we always see this type of relationship as a partnership. Church and other community supports are a common part of the discussions.
Example 4, I've never heard anyone claim they want to model their relationship after a bad TV show "Leave it to beaver." Most TRAD wives instead base their relationship after the Bible or the Koran.
Example 5, I've seen both Christians and Muslims TRAD wives support non-monogamous relationships.
Example 6, Many TRAD relationships do NOT give all the power to the man. Specifically, the woman is said to have control at home, while the man is in control of his carrier. I've known more TRAD wives to be in control of the finances then the man.
Example 7, I've heard many TRAD relationships that support Domestic Discipline for the husband as well.
I think the appeal for us younger men is that the “traditional” (as we know it) model pushes back against the modern trend. The dating scene is abysmal for many today, and people are looking for solutions that generally worked, even if they’re idealized and misunderstood. People must have some kind of model, and I think the tradwife movement symbolizes the search for something that works in society.
Oh totally! And I think the impulse is right. But I think it needs to be done in a way that's not so naive.
@@DrJordanBCooper Thank you. I suppose that’s where figures like yourself need to step in. I think there’s a tectonic shift in the way society and relationships are working and I find it discouraging when leaders in the church are unprepared and frankly, ignorant to the signs of trouble. It’s very troubling when you have a large population of single young men that are angry.
@@MiguelGebremedhin Glad to have your perspective. I am a bit older and was raised just as the wave of "women's rights" and divorce was beginning to rise. I think Dr. Cooper's best point is that the community that once supported traditionalism is GONE. We can't go back. But we can try to bring virtue forward to our time. I am sorry to hear so many young men are so disillusioned. Don't give in and don't give up. Best to you, Miguel.
@Miguel G Especially to your last part. It's amazing how blind people are to it. People wonder why mass shootings are common, that's a big reason why.
@@MiguelGebremedhin Alot of young men need to focus on self-improvement, that is part of growing up. Anger is just what happens when you resist the unstoppable force of reality. That's a tough pill to swallow in such a narcissistic age, of course, but there's no sugar-coating it.
The tradwife thing just seems like people that are being naive. There's a difference between having conservative values, and seeing the past in an overly romantic way. Reading more books critical of the history is useful to understand the limitations in idolizing the past (and not just dismissing critical historiography as "woke"), and helping to build a better future in the present.
Very well articulated, and you put the argument succinctly with the point “traditional family requires traditional society.” Indeed, in many discussions “nuclear family” and “traditional family” are conflated, which is a mistake. “Pornifiction of tradition” was also an outstanding phrase-completely agree.
totaly agree! both points were new to me but instantly resonated
Yeah, I'm glad to hear the distinction between 1950s nuclear family and the traditional extended family unit. Clans and tribes are much more "traditional" than the lone nuclear family.
It was something I never had thought of myself and found it so insightful.
@@lamisanicole5640 those are hair?
I would have also added the traditional rural society/life (rather than traditional city). The whole family worked together on the farm and often the extended families worked on each other's farms. etc.
The biggest problem with recreating the 1950's is dealing with the fact that the 1950's created the 1960's. There is really some kind of super masochistic death spiral we are on where we want to keep doing this nonsense over and over and over again.
Pendulum Swing on a loop. 1950s is a swing from the 1940s when women were working while men were away at war, they had a taste of independence and getting a paycheck. They discovered they had options and when the men came back, they took notice and reminded women they need to be barefoot and pregnant again. And the daughters got sick of their fathers treatments of their mother and in comes the 1960s. This Tradwife movement is not thoroughly thought out, the fact that they record themselves doing chores, and trying to get attention is not traditionalism. Are they doing it for their family or for their own image, are they doing this to counter and trigger the Feminist movement... then its for all the wrong reasons, its as bad as people who fall in love for the sake of falling in love, they overlook red flags of their prospective partners because they're so caught up in the movement and impressing their social circle of tradwife friends. Their daughters will become feminists in a couple of decades.
With this idea, we should never repeat the past. You contradict yourself. So what is your point exactly?
well-said
@@pweetypooCorrect. We should never seek to emulate the past.
Chivalry is a key part of being a traditional man. Many young men don't have a matured view of what "traditional" means. Great video, Dr. Cooper.
Many young men have been punished for chivalry. Hence they abandoned it. Nice guys finished last and often they don't finish at all
@@Dilley_G45 Genesis says that a man will "rule over" his wife. Anyone who thinks this is always accomplished politely is a fool. And those who are instead ruled by their wives are doubly so.
@@Catholic-Perennialist no disagreement. But I was replying to another post.
@@Catholic-Perennialist I agree that something is missing from Dr. Cooper's (brief) presentation on this point. My experience has been that politeness towards a woman invites domination from her and furthermore is never appreciated. But we have to be careful with "ruling over". As a comparison, being given dominion over the earth does not imply the command to cut down every last tree. The silent, attached meanings we apply to "rule over" are almost certainly not the same as they were 3,000 years ago. But I agree that "polite" is not enough and is sometimes counterproductive.
@@jeffb1275 I only quote the scripture. You provide the overreach.
Off topic, I know: but that is a heck of a jacket. Moving on, this is excellent. I have three daughters (18, 17, and 16). They are increasingly bombarded with the Andrew Tates of the world on one side, and this postmodern (?) version of the traditional wife/woman ethos (which goes well beyond biblical descriptors of womanhood) on the other. I don't know where they will find a good man (they certainly are all but absent in the modern church). I'm excited to show this to them (and to my own wife). I want them to know there is a better way for understanding this discussion. Also, discussions like this make me want to be a better husband and dad. Thank you.
You have to go to a traditional church. I was that "pretty girl that someone is going to snatch up," and it didn't happen, for the reasons you gave. Hopefully, I can spare your daughters some of my pain. If they want to start a family, it's not going to be at a Baptist/Evangelical/Non-denominational church. Try Catholic (TLM), Orthodox, and high church Lutheran. You'll still have your Tates and Born Again Blow-up Dolls, but that's also where the good men are. I hope they don't have to go through what I did.
Traditional homes operated with the help of Grandparents, Uncles and Aunts, adult siblings, and not just a few cousins. All this operated within a vibrant local church. My parents grew up in a Trad. community like that in the 1930s, and I grew up the same way in t6he same community in the 1950s and 1960s.
Thanks for mentioning that women were isolated and they needed to interact with others and they were getting depressed. Also thanks for saying that no one can be a super person and do everything and get it done by themselves.
I'm thankful that I have a wife who homeschools my kids, teaches them scripture, feeds my family, is understanding and kind, and was willing to let me lead her out of Calvinism into confessional Lutheranism. God be praised for s good wife. As much as I enjoy good traditions it's much better to have a wife that is biblical and keeps the faith.
In my seminary class, only real doctrinal differences came down pretty much to the sacraments. We compared confessions like the 39 Articles (reformed camp) and the Augsburg.
39 Articles are Anglican, not reformed
@@felixcharles9773 Articles are very Reformed. Article 17 and the Articles on the Sacraments alone are enough for them to be in the Reformed camp. They’re as Reformed as any other Confessions of the 1500s. CofE was a signature to the Canons of Dort.
bless her. praying for my charismatic wife to come along with me into catholicism
@Psalm 144:1 The doctrine of the Eucharist appears Reformed (and I mean truly of Calvin and not how the modern Reformed treat the Eucharist), but the Articles as a whole are not wholly and solidly Reformed. I think you see a mix of some Reformed, Lutheran, and Roman Catholic concepts.
Thank you so much for pointing out that women have become so isolated because of car dependent suburbs. Corporate media the auto industry and dividing cities up based on wealth has made the family unit so obsolete.
I would love to see this video go viral
Ford didn't invent the car....Daimler and Benz did. But yes....Ford made it cheaper, and the suburbizarion was also a result of decaying inner cities.
You lost me at "A tradwife who is not married" 😅
They're interesting women
🤣🤣🤣
Another big difference is the Economic differences. That 1950's idea was only supportable due to the best economy America had ever enjoyed. Prior to that, women worked constantly just to maintain a home, just look at the Amish, where women work hard and long to maintain the household.
In traditional societies children weren't sitting at home doing their homeschooling with mama, and they weren't off at some public school. Most children were working as soon as they were of helpful age.
I say this as someone who homeschools 3 children (mainly because I don't think public schools are an option these days, and private schools went Covid mad as well).
My wife became a full time mother and homemaker after our son was born. Initially it was for health reasons. That was 42 years ago. It helped that she had a college degree in home economics, when people valued such things enough to study it). She is also not a feminist, so to her it as an honor to be a full time homemaker. We both decided that homemaking can be a career if you can afford it and desire it. We learned to be extremely frugal. I learned many skills to repair my home and appliances so we could afford our lifestyle. She learned gardening. She had friends who were also full-time homemakers. This “traditional” approach is not what most Americans desire, I realize. It has been, however a great blessing to us. Neither of us believe it is a sin not to choose this route for other reasons, as this is the category of nature more than grace.
I think any sort of "traditional" marriage is going to have a far more (dare I say) complementarian aspect to it than what is being expressed as desirous here. When you look at agrarian communities, men and women share in the work of making a family, farm, and business (and more!) work together and flow smoothly. There's really no sharp delineation between parent, homemaker, and breadwinner. The husband and wife share in different aspects of it.
Yeah this whole idea of complementarianism was just a product of the industrial revolution. For Christian (or other religious) traditions that have roots predating the industrial revolution I think not only do we already have examples of an actual traditional family structure in our past to aspire to, but they're far better ones than the modern invention of the complimentarian relationship and the nuclear family.
@harrygarris6921 I'm not sure the postindustrial vision is complementarian in any true or meaningful sense. When one whole sphere of family life is the sole domain of either husband or wife, they cannot care for or complement each other (or help each other in the task of providing for and running a home and family).
Besides the nuclear family phenomenon, the problem with the tradwife is that the tradcity doesn't exist anymore. Mixed use buildings are what makes trad work. The man works at home and so does the wife. Or they at least work in close proximity to each other, their home, and their community.
Our cities are literally monuments to greed. When God made a home for man, it was a garden. The man and the woman didn't need pharmaceutical products or credit card reward points. They were naked and they had absolutely everything they needed.
I get angry whenever I hear b*omers extol the virtues of Capitalism and blame every bad thing on Marxism, as if they were synonymous with Good and Evil. There's a third option. Build an economy around people instead of around either corporations or government. You can have a market economy without usury, and you can have progress without the uneven scales called "intellectual property". Above all of that, you can have freedom without insider trading, bribery, and corruption.
They have the audacity to complain that the world has changed when they spent the last 70 years selling every valuable thing they they had for temporary wealth. Now the moths have eaten their nice clothes. The thieves have broken in and stolen all their pretty gems and crystals. And all the gold has turned to rust. If they had just been a little more careful in their reckless pursuit of riches, maybe we wouldn't be waist-deep in internet porn, drinking water contaminated by birth-control hormones.
It seems we are in the times when "the love of many shall grow cold". Now, more than ever, the church needs to hold together and embody a radical culture od generosity and sacrificial love. Like one body. We can get through this together... but what an uphill battle it will be. Lord help us all.
I don't know if you cover this in "5 Problems with the Trad Movement" (will watch that next) but what I would also mention about this idealized suburbia is that it gave rise to a massive father hunger. Dads were providing all the material goods their kids could want but those kids didn't have their DADS. Hence the "free love" movement where girls searched for that fatherly love in sexual encounters and men searched for a sense of manhood in sexual encounters.
Interesting 🤔 never thought about it like that
A real father can show his love and acceptance towards his children even while working full time. What a child needs is stability, and Mom being there instead of them at a sitters or home alone while she is at work. There are far more divorces now with both parents working. How is the benifial for the children?
@@shirleysmith4614Ask Divorce Lawyers tho... guess who struggles the most post-divorce.... SAHM. Husbands leave them for a younger woman, mom usually is stuck with the kids and if its really traditional, they have 4 or 5 kids average, and no man with good principles wants to take that on, they want to start their own fro. scratch wirh someone they deem "pure". Moms can not live off of child support or alimony, so they have to get out to work, but with what experience? No experience means low wages. Even mothers with degrees and ivy league credentials who post poned their career for 10 years, are often chosen last and if selected, their salary does not reflect what they deserve given their qualities prior to being a SAHM. This is why some mothers work during marriage, but they work from home so that their resumes dont show a huge pause. Being a SAHM is a stigma for most of modern society and women who give up their career for their children are often times more than not, looked down upon and perceived as "dumb" by the corporate world.
Thank you SO MUCH for articulating this!! I’ve been unnerved & disturbed by the “trad” profiles (lady or man owned), but couldn’t put my finger on why. Especially as I love living in the country and all…it’s just not the same as “trad living” (and I am A-OK with that!).
As someone says it in the comments and it made sense why it irks me, even as a SAHM myself... it is a PORNIFICATION OF Traditionalism.
I think the TradWife movement has been immensely helpful in highlighting a healthy alternative to the modern female ideal of a 9-5 working mum. The tradwife ideal has helped putting a beautiful picture on something much more natural and an ideal closer to the Scriptural ideal of womanhood, Titus 2:3-5.
Though it might have a few just short-comings I think it is a very important counter-view to the dominant perspective which is much, much worse.
Lastly, I think the criticism of the traditional housewife in a modern society is somewhat mistaken. Why would we believe there that is a juxtaposition between a modern stay-at-home mum taking care of family, children and house, and a social closeknit life with friends and families? Wives meet, play dates between the children of different families allow the mothers some well-deserved time for socializing and entertainment with other adult women while the children play with each other.
@@christinerosenquist7657
Not trying to be contentious here but you haven’t actually answered his question. He asked why a wife can’t have friends and raise her kids not whether or not she can be with her friends all the time or if her husband helps with the kids or not.
All good points, but I would refer you to my comment under the video where I described one of the shortcomings of trying to be a traditional family in a non-traditional society. If you lack extended family support, that can be a big problem.
Also, I've noticed something about friendships with other moms my age. They inevitably have to occur during playdates, which are rife with noise and constant interruptions, therefore they tend to be superficial and not like the very close "best friendships" many girls had when they were younger. I would argue that role is rightly shifted to the husband, but I still find that my friendships with other women are less than satisfying.
And as the other replier mentioned, being a homemaker takes a lot of work, and there isn't a whole lot of time or opportunity to do playdates anyway.
With a robust community of extended family around to help, a lot of these problems would be solved. I'm not going to abandon our traditional lifestyle because we can't live in the ideal traditional society. It's still much better than the alternative, but these are real problems.
How is this trad? Half of women already do this. It's called being a stay-at-home mom
Didn't realize there was a Tradwife Phenomenon going on. Although your description of the stay-at-home wife/mother in the suburbs perfectly describes my upbringing during the 1960s.
The nuclear family got that name for a reason. It came about in the same age as we were discovering the field of atomic science. It's about as "traditional" as the scientific discipline itself is, no more than 100 years.
Most trad wives are just in it for the cottage core aesthetic from my experience, not actually bettering themselves into tradwives. A lot of trad women that *aren't* in that camp are former leftist women who are older and just now became trad, for various reasons. Not all of them Godly though.
Thank you for putting words to some issues I've always seen with this movement. Dr. Cooper does not miss.
Without starting at an analysis of the "trad wife" phenomenon, I have been independently thinking about the bits of advice you gave at the end: finding a functional role in society, the value of finding a wife and starting a family, etc, largely initiated by studying the topic of Inanna-Ishtar/Mary/Babalon. Interesting synchronicity there.
Love listening to Dr. Cooper seriously discuss a meme. That’s at least how I see the trad wife stuff. It’s just a meme joke about some idealized version of women. I always get a laugh from them when I see them.
Being in control of oneself is the first step.
I like the traditional family model that includes multiple generations underthe same roof
This is the ultimate "Ackshually" video. My goodness.
One of the most impactful books I've ever read was Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam, where he discusses the decline of civic and social involvement in America. I agree with your first point that traditional living involved living in share community, civic and social engagement, and close familial ties (both geographical and relationally) that would be lacking in this distorted view of "trad life". I think traditional family life is important for Christians, and as a means of truly countering post-modern life, but in a way that's authentic and not gimmicky.
I'll have to give it a read.
The New Deal lead to wealthy reactionary figures like William Randolph Hurst dumping money into right wing libertarian think tanks and paying off preachers (even Billy Graham) and eventually that took its toll on society in response to this "gospel" of individualism and dog-eat-dog capitalism.
@Dr. Jordan B Cooper He wrote it back in 2000 so it's a bit dated, but I saw he added a chapter recently on technology
On your first point, you are describing conservative Amish & Mennonite communities very well.
I'm with the tradwives. My wife and I have lived this way for 16 years now (13 with a son) and we're both very glad we did. And I do find it to be traditional, living more or less along the lines of traditional values, though what it looks like might change with advances in technology, etc.
I also think that the promotion of this lifestyle would be a major step toward gradually changing "society" back into a traditional one as well, for whatever that's worth. And you don't explain why you think it's "an impossibility" for some/most women to live in that way, but thankfully we have examples that prove the contrary. I don't think this tradwife "phenomenon" is incompatible or at odds in any way with society being more traditional, being concerned with extended family or even having them live in the same house. But it's not necessary either.
It's also not unrealistic to expect your wife to take care of "everything" around the house, since that "everything" isn't everything. Traditionally, the man does whatever repair work needed around the house, mows the lawn, etc. in addition to the full-time job the wife doesn't have to worry about.
Finally, just because people in general make things look nicer for the purposes of whatever video they're putting on social media, doesn't mean we can single tradwives out for it. I have seen a *few* channels that were obviously fetishizing being a tradwife, but for the most part they are about cooking and cleaning, dressing modestly, etc.
Good on you, though, for pointing out the hypocrisy of men saying they want a tradwife but not themselves acting in traditional ways (loving and honoring the wife, showing they are willing and able to provide for and protect them).
Good to see this video. I’ve been moving towards wanting to be more traditional and came to the conclusion that it’s more than being the wife that stays at home to cook, clean and watch the kids. It should extend further than that. Community and especially with family is very important.
You hit the nail on the head. Great video!
Dr Cooper, there is a fun word that is used online to describe the kind of ostentatious behaviors you see online.
Larp: short for
Live
Action
Role
Playing
The "Tradwife" phenomenon is a bunch of Larp
it's the life stile not the time frame that matters, A house hold sutch as this Takes both party's to keep.
We can't be trad and also hyper-individualists
Great thoughts. I think you absolutely nailed it in that the type of man who wants a tradwife either wants a woman roleplaying as such or thinks such a woman will be easier to control because that type of man doesn't respect women.
Traditional gender roles are not bad or wrong in themselves, the problem comes when a husband has a sense of entitlement and demands that his wife should live according to those roles.
It's super trad to vlog about your entire life...on TikTok...
While some women certainly get into the tradwife thing for attention or just because they like the aesthetic, I think it's also being used by others as a visible way of separating themselves from mainstream culture. Similar to men who always wear suits and make it a point to talk like characters from a movie made in the 1940's, like that guy who does those fast food reviews. It may be eccentric, and some certainly take it too far, but I don't know that it's necessarily a bad thing. It stems from a desire to set oneself apart from the rest of society. A lot people, especially younger people, simply don't know how to do that in any better way.
Also, it's not a good idea to take anything said on 4chan seriously. It's common to go on there and deliberately act like the worst caricature of people you disagree with, either to make that group look bad or just for the fun of it. I used to do that all the time, mostly for the fun of it.
Reviewbrah is the man.
There are a number of errors in this video. I'm not usually picky, but the TRAD wife / Domestic Discipline lifestyle is much broader then just the 1950's girls you are talking about. It encompasses all sorts of times, and practices. Typically, the TRAD wife movement is based on the real idea that Men traditionally held the dominant roles, whereas the larger domestic discipline is more flexible. This is contrary to your claim that it is based on 1950s. Yes, SOME TRAD Wives do “1950 Traditional Marriages,” but certainly not all of them (like me).
I have talked to MANY Muslims, and many people, they all did things differently. I also do not believe any credible person is preaching for the woman to be isolated or solo in her position. This is not how it works, at all, and will not work. I've never seen anyone propose the things you say, and you seem to be a weird type of Truewayer, who is more about bashing. Dr. Jordan, I don't think you understand the community at all.
Thank you Dr. Cooper! I’m a very conservative Christian, but was never really drawn to the trad wife movement as I didn’t think it was necessarily equivalent with the idea of a good and Godly wife. I also feel like it gives men an out with their responsibilities of raising and being very involved with their children as well which has had detrimental consequences societally. Thanks again!
Very useful! We have drifted far from time honored tradition in virtually every way. It is a hopeful sign I guess that there are young people who are trying to find it again. But at the same time, it is not something that can easily be recovered again, and certainly not in a Tick Toc video. The best place to start is not in trying to recapture the 1950’s, but by going to Holy Scripture. There you will find the counsel of God for husbands and wives for all times and cultures.
Hi Dr. Cooper, I enjoyed this video and your thoughts on it, and I am hoping maybe you could address some antidotes to the problem of family formation (both meeting a spouse and having children) in a future video, which you somewhat touched on here. Dating/meeting spouses has become a bit of a cess put for most (which may produce some of the problems you acknowledge, the channel Whatifalthist has a great video on the problems) and it has be come so expensive to even have children that it becomes incredibly stressful and delayed. I am married and my wife and I both work and are educated, and we still aren't established/wealthy enough to afford children, and women often push off having children or feel guilty working instead of staying at home, as it is too expensive not to work. It sounds like taking advantage of family and community is the key, but I know that's not always option. I would be interested to hear your opinions on possible ways to address these issues if possible. Cheers!
Love this. Perfect video. Just think how many people (women) are beating themselves up trying to meet an impossible standard. I find it interesting (?) that even men who know nothing about the Bible, believe women should be submissive but have not a single clue what their responsibilities are. I guess the scarier part is thinking how that may have been modeled in their families as they were growing up.
Wouldn't adding the element of isolation, and a requirement for a dozen children, when none is suggested to begin with, count as a logical fallacy of some sort?
I missed the bit where these women are suggesting either of those things.
Fantastic video Dr. Cooper!
What software do you use to record yourself btw?
I record on a Samsung S8 Ultra tablet, which has a really nice built in camera.
A straw man argument is a logical fallacy of distorting an opposing position into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version. The person using the strawman pretends to attack their opponent’s stance, while in reality they are actually attacking a distorted version of that stance, which their opponent doesn’t necessarily support. The technique often takes quotes out of context or, more often, incorrectly paraphrases or summarizes an opponent's position.
How realistic is it that women in the 50s were at home in the suburbs on their own not talking to anyone, watching soaps and speaking to their friends by phone?
The suburbs in this picture we're drawing would have lines upon lines of nuclear family homes, therefore a woman at home in each house, not communicating with each other?
A time when most people went to church, what about the community they would find there? You go to church each Sunday, speak to other people and especially other women. Gives you a chance to meet other women if you are alone.
Also this was a time when families had washing machines, dryers, microwaves etc. gadgets that would free a lot of time for women. The children go off to school at a young age.
I wasn't a tradwife in the 1950s but it doesn't sound like the image painted is feasible.
I was with you until the end when it seems like you think men who want a woman who is modest, not sleeping around, has traditional moral values, wants a family, etc. are often misogynistic. I don't think the latter applies to most men who have traditional values. Most men I encounter like that simply want a woman who will say faithful to them, share regular moments of physical intimacy with them, and be grateful for what he does for her, and they're annoyed or upset that they can't even find that. There are some of those chauvinistic or misogynistic men, but they're a minority of men who want to be married with children, because I would say most guys like that don't want to be married, but are instead the minority group who take advantage of the hypersexualized culture and hypergamous attitude of women. The other guys want a Disney princess or fictional waifu type girl that may be strong, independent, and adventurous, but also loves her husband like Giselle from Enchanted.
Oh certainly not. I am a man who wanted precisely those things, and I think that most decent men do. I'm just talking about some of the rhetoric in the radtrad sphere.
@@DrJordanBCooper Okay. I haven't seen that, but I guess I'm not exposed to those areas. I don't use 4Chan. The worst I usually see are the really progressive attitudes on Reddit that suck you in wanting to say something only to regret it after seeing how people respond negatively to almost any traditional Christian view.
@@litigioussociety4249 Reddit is awful with its leftist bias.
I’m gonna be honest cause I’m a little frustrated, what can we do instead of the tradwife thing? Cause I honestly have no idea. I’m a young woman and I’m just trying to do my best here. So what can I do to have a good life if society won’t let it happen? This is hopeless.
I'm not saying you *can't* do it, but don't go into it without understanding the difficulties. Surround yourself with family/community as much as possible.
@@DrJordanBCooper You actually said you can't do it, because apparently all TradWives are isolated and not with a partner, and has no community. I'm a bit lost, as I don't think my extensive experience with this community is in any way the same as yours. I've never heard anyone advocate for that, and everyone considers this a relationship where the two people support each other. You also had claimed that all TRAD relationships are modelled from 1950's, but that is only one type of TRAD relationships. Ultimately, this video suffers from a weird "TrueWayism," in that you claim all relationships must follow your broken model, and that is just not true. We reject this, extensively.
Good morning! Great video.
I feel the difference in a "traditional wife" and what I consider myself, "a modern housewife" is that I have a choice to be a stay at home wife and mom. I do what I want and what I think is best for my family. Which is to prioritize my marriage and family over my career. This has not always been a happy choice but it's important to me and is still A Choice. I don't feel the 1950's traditional wife had a choice.
That's a helpful critique. 50s America relies too heavily on the nuclear home.
Excellent reflections Dr Cooper. Thank you.
Could have done without the cover, advertising that lady's wares. i understand how it's helpful to get clicks, but also drives more attention to her fetish. I just pray people will listen to what you have to say about it.
I agree with the commenter below, you've made an excellent description of the pornification of traditional values, and of everything else. Once we realize that's just a flimsy filter put on everything, people will see its emptiness. (i hope!)
Thanks for all you do!
I get it, but I think the images kinda speak for the problem here, so I thought it worthwhile. She *is* clothed though.
@@DrJordanBCooper I understand your intent. I do hope it drives people to discover you.
Side note: From what i understand the effect in the brain is hardly different whether the object is clothed or not if the stimulation is meant to be prurient, i.e., the modern hyper-sensitized lust trigger. Not a comment on your use of it, but the effect of the pornification of anything.
@@dialogos585 It looks like he has now changed the thumbnail to an equally clear but more "tasteful" one. Which i really appreciate, I really appreciate him taking this feedback despite it not being a heavily liked comment.
Hi doc Coop. Could you please make a review about the recent debate between Dr. Gavin Ortlund and Trent Horn in your next program?
Judging by the comments, I see that the general ability of most of the commenters to listen and comprehend is about nil. I don’t see you telling people not to get married until society is changed, nor do I see you attacking the actual traditional families. Verbal comprehension seems to be at an all time societal low.
I have seen the tradwife phenomenon strike many of my unmarried male peers. It seems to be a mechanism for externalizing the blame for their own personal inability to attract a decent woman. Being an internet theology edgelord is not attractive to women. Virtue, strength, and competence are. Online RadTrad “communities” have a tendency to be quite opinionated, backbiting, and rude - none of which are keys to successful marriage.
I second your points made in this video. A lot of these keyboard warriors need to adjust their expectations on both ends - there have never been idealized, virtuous Christian women just floating around. They have always been few, which is why scripture praises them so highly. Additionally, a woman like that is not likely to be attracted to a sweat-stained beast who spends his time trolling feminists on twitter. Men who are competent at their work, venerable in their conduct, and self-sacrificial in all things will not remain single for long. The good Christian men that I know have almost all gotten married (to good women) quite young, with very few exceptions. The ones who didn’t marry young patiently maintained their chastity until a good match came along, and married a bit older. Good women exist.
I support a biblical model of marriage and family, but as a girl, if I stayed home alone all day with nothing to do but house chores, I would lose my mind. Many men who want a "tradwife" just want free sex and a cook, not someone who they actually respect
As with every movement it begins with one small step at a time…and society can be changed back to a more traditional, and sane, and family oriented society. Doc, you are so off base and all over the place. How about Traditional Woman rather than Traditional Wife. Your sort made pansies out of men and real women are hungry for a real man. We, now, have all the conveniences of this era which make life easier and more enjoyable to be home. And who the heck is moving to a cabin in the woods? A Trad woman still takes her kids to sports practice, attends school functions, religious services and does more than cook, clean and eat bon-bons. Those are the places where she meets like minds or working moms dragging their tired bodies to events. In The corporate world women are replaceable; in her family she’s invaluable. Women are finally getting back to being wholesome and feminine. I believe this will rub off on men. For so long, women wanted no respect, rejected being treated like a “lady”, became foul-mouthed and looked like grunge. Do you blame men for being equally disrespectful and foul? Ya got what ya asked for. I have complete faith that a traditional woman’s movement can succeed because women have the spine it takes. Naysayers, like you, just won’t believe in the power of Eve.
I agreed with everything you said up until "Jesus rebuked Mary"
There should be nothing wrong with traditional values. However those traditional values should be with in the culture of the day. It should not mean isolation from said society.
Juxtaposition exercise: this video's subject and current marriage rates/birth rates.
Fantastic vid, thank you!
A strangely important message
I think Cooper has strayed too far into an academic explanation and not a pragmatic one. I see the Tradwife movement as embracing a Biblical view of marriage, of the union of two into one to start a family. Here the male is the head of the household and the female the heart. Broadly speaking, the former provides food, clothing and shelter while the latter physical, mental and emotional nurturing. The objective is raise children to become functioning members of society, and of the world to come. Today new obstacles both blur those roles and make a clear demarkation of them difficult. The culture is overly permissive, the government lax in enforcing laws and providing security and too willing to usurp traditional parental roles and responsibilities, something corporations follow in their advocacy practices for their products/services and hiring. Thus, another need exists to adapt, whether by the man, woman or both, to provide physical security in the home, whether by intrusion or accident such as fire, situational awareness aka 'street smarts' for life outside the home, and mental acuity to offset the rogue individuals and charlaton corporations who would prey on the unsuspecting or inexperienced. Doing this needs a team, starting with a husband and wife, but also spreading to the church.
A great analysis. Thanks.
Dr. Cooper subtweeting Andrew Tate in the second half 👀
Outstanding video!
Interesting take.
I think you misunderstand the traditional roles of the family unit. Traditional homes are not dependent on society to be successful. A strong supportive community is important but not required. Society today is the antithesis of traditional families yet the Amish, Mennonite, and other like communities still survive and flourish. As a traditional wife and mother I am certainly not isolated or unfulfilled by any means. Neither is the burden of raising the family squarely on my shoulders alone. You seem to present this as a fantasy but I can tell you this is reality and not at all as you present it.
Proverbs 31 is not the definition of a #Tradwife.
Baloney cosplay is what it is. Give your head a shake people
Ive never heard of it although a Christian wife must be subject to her husband as taught in the new testament
Jordan, I think you may be overthinking this. Is what theses ladies wanting to imulate so bad? Sure, perhaps not all the pieces are in place in terms of family close by or society is not on board....so what. I believe i grew up in a traditional family and woukd consider my mom to be very traditional. She did not work out of the home until all three of us graduated high school. She wasca stsy at home mom responsibke gor everything insidevtge house. Dsd took csre of everything outside the house. As my father was in the military, we had no blood family ever close by. But i always said growing up i had 2000 parents on the military base. If i was goofing off during flag retreat at 1630, rest assured i woukd hear about it from another parent and my parents would know about when i hot hone.
I went into the military myself, married my college sweetheart and had a traditional marriage. She stayed with the kids until they were well into high school but did not have to work. Her support groups was our church womens bible study group and the Officers Wives Club.
I applaud the ladies who want to emulate a more traditional family role. What harm can it do? It seems to me a lot better than having a stranger raise your kids while you both work
so all it takes is two-three generations of families to change society...
I would like to grow a nice manly beard like yours, but my wife won't let me. Is there anything I am doing wrong?
I think tradwife is more traditional for Americians or modern times vs ancient times. I am very confused on where you get no socializing for tradwives. Homeschooling family are very social. Being in a suburban area means you're around other families.
I'd argue today is more isolating than the 1950s. They knew all their neighbors, we don't.
There is definitely a difference between trad wives and stepford wives 😂
Now you see Mary not knowing where Jesus was when he was in the Temple was something I heard Evangelicals use to say that Mary wasn't a good mother... (yea I know we're not Catholic here, but while I don't worship Mary, accusing her of being a "bad mother" seems a little blasphemous adjacent, but maybe that's just me)
Where's all the pictures of the women slumped over the kitchen counter, puffing a cigarette and downing their benzos with the morning coffee?? I mean we all know the 50s was the decade of housewife syndrome; where's all the realistic photos of depressed women slaving away to care for their manchild and their pet sperm?? Would love to see some dreamy, watercolor photos of their bills too, just to remind people why this is an unattainable fairytale for most people in 2023 where a gallon of milk is 5 dollars.
Be able to say Titus 2 without flinching.
12 kids? Yeah, of course she’s gonna need help. But lots of SAHMs have 2, 3, or maybe 4 or 5 at the max. In the 50’s and 60’s, during the day time, stay at home moms socialized with neighbors and friends most days - often by necessity as most families only had one car - the men would car pool and leave a vehicle at home. What is exactly wrong with women doing what they want to do? If they want to go out and work in industry, fine. If they want to stay home with the kids and sacrifice their lifestyle, fine? They think they should submit to their husband, fine. They want to dump their lameass husband, fine. Everyone’s so down on these ladies - none of these ladies is forcing anyone to do anything they don’t want
*Phenomenon
I agree with everything you said about men, but I think there needs to be an equal discussion on women. Husbands and wives need to respect and complement each other, and in my opinion they need to accept that they have been graced with different abilities that make them better at different roles in the family. Men should not act like pigs, but blue haired western feminists are the reason why men are walking away. Let’s have a discussion about this please.
He'll need lady Lutheran advanced degree holders with hyphenated surnames to do that.
He cannot touch the Third Rail.
Thank you for bringing this to the surface🙏🏻
I think you're to focused on the meaning of traditional, it's never going to be 1950's again, its 2023 so you got to adapt "traditional" to the age we live in e.g. tradwife may mean that the wife stays at home and takes care of home/kids, but that doesn't mean that they are isolated, they still live in the age of the internet. You need to consider what traditional means in this day and age, not what it did in 1950's.
"Manners maketh men"
As a homeschool kid (now adult), I can affirm that it's all LARPing. Can't stand that Christian Right of 80s/90s junk and don't understand why anyone would want to bring it back -- especially sad that Lutherans are pushing for it now. I thought I got away from it all when I got into Lutheranism and away from the IFB circles I was around before.
Same here. I became Lutheran to get away from that stuff as well. I’m seeing many but not all Lutherans default to RR 80s/90s methodology and reactionism. However, it will not work and I think eventually conservative Lutheranism will take a different path of engagement. Right now everyone is learning how to navigate things and are going with what they know or are comfortable with. We are beyond that and need to leave these old ways of thinking behind as they were abject failures to begin with. I personally think doubling down on the essentials (word, sacrament, Gospel) and emphasis on participation in the divine nature as well as a renewed love of neighbor is the way forward. Right now many are driven by fear and will not take a posture of listening and engaging. Every one is too knee jerk reactionary currently.
@Will Most Exactly. Lutherans are always 2 decades or so behind Evangelicalism. First, in experimental worship, now in culture war.
We're acting like we're the first to discover homeschooling -- and the conspiratorial/reactionary baggage -- as an option, meanwhile, me and everyone else who lived through the 90s is like "yeah.. that's a great way to push your kids out of the faith."
Well the ifb is a whole different thing than confessional Lutheranism. Also if I may ask why do you use the word reactionary as if its bad? Doesnt that need qualification? Why did u change from.ifb to Lutheranism? Or am I completely.missing your point?
Do you think public schools of today are better than Christian families homeschooling?
Become the type of man that a trad wife would be attracted to, you might say
This is really helpful, Jordan. Thanks.
I agree with all Rev Cooper's points, yet something is missing. Okay, so it was just 11.5 minutes. But if we assume a man abides by Dr. Cooper's exhortations, he still has not recovered a meaningful sense of masculinity. Prioritizing a wife's needs, without an overriding sense of masculineduty, just leads to male subservience and female tyranny, which I what I now see around me. We need the other, invisible, mysterious part to this equation.
I have addressed that in other places.
That is the reason why the MGTOW (often MGGW called by Christians) philosophy started in the west.
MGGW- men going God's way
Once you are legally married your wife is basically given a gun that she can use anytime to blow you to legal, financial and social oblivion.
I would like to see this topic being seriously addressed by the church.
Does it ever occur to the Dr. that successful traditional families are also forming traditional communities?
It should also be understood that the blurring of gender roles precipitates divorce.
And women despise nice men.
I'm not saying that none of these people are forming traditional communities. I hope they are.
@@DrJordanBCooper Then I challenge you to highlight the good that is being done by those attempting to return to normalcy, rather than criticizing a whole movement based on its abberants.
Men who say “women despise nice men” are not “nice” men. If you have to insist you are a nice man, you are not a nice man. Women want good men. My husband is a good man. I married him. 🤷♀️
@@thecourtmagician What most women mean by "good" is a man who will hold down a job and not cheat.
Beyond that, women have little use for spirituality in a man. Religion is _their_ tool to manipulate men; they take offense when it is weilded by their husbands.
Men should strive to be ungodly and godlike, never "nice."
@@Catholic-Perennialist what’s wrong with wanting a man who won’t cheat? When I met my husband, (who was clear before we met that he was a Christian), he was polite, thoughtful, and had many other good qualities. He doesn’t feel the need to talk poorly about women. He has never cheated on me, he does have a decent job (as I did before we had our kid, not that that is a character quality)cares about his family, goes to church…A good man. Not sure what you are trying to say. 🤷♀️
With all due respect, Dr. Cooper, there are two problems that I take issue with.
First, like most (if not all) church leaders, you call out only the men and gloss over the fact the feminism and the state did spoil women, religious and secular alike.
Second, as far as I can tell, many of those men used to b pleasant before they got their hearts broken for the 100th time by women.
As an easterner, I can see that men in the west have been dealt a very bad hand and have been time and time again trampled on, degraded and humiliated all for the sake of appearing impartial.
Which made many of those men give up.
This is not supposed to be an excuse, but rather an explanation.
I think that's fairly accurate
If you keep getting a man gets heart broken a hundred times, then theres a problem with him and he should go to therapy instead of lashing out against world like a cynical child.
Yes, for 4chan bad we get it you’re just bringing up outliers for brownie points.
You realize you've just angered every Postmillennial "Webbonite" Christian Nationalist in your audience, right? 😃
The Wilsonites are seething
To paraphrase Sam Hyde "you'd be better off with the rockabilly chick than the girl who posts her cooking on social media"
2nd!
😆
(context I stole first place)
“Pornification of traditionalism” is precisely the correct phrase to be applied to trad men
What is this? Never heard of it. Probably another weird American thing😉😄