Building a Peltier cooler-based cloud chamber - A simple construction from a scientist
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- Опубликовано: 11 окт 2024
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In this video, I show you how to build a simple, Peltier cooler-based cloud chamber to show the presence of ionizing particles. I specifically address the most important part of the chamber, which is the cooler because many people seem to misunderstand how to use Peltier coolers.
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Excellent explanation of how Peltier coolers work. I saw a guy make a compressor based cloud chamber. It was very neat, but beyond most people's grasp. This is very accessible. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you very much!
Yes, compressors are a bit more cumbersome and noisy to work with and it is hard to make a cooling system at home with them. This version with Peltier coolers is indeed more accessible and one can build it in half an hour. Stay tuned, I will build a significantly larger one in the future.
@@CuriousScientist That sounds great, looking forward to it!
Great video, as a fellow scientist, you have another subscriber. Plus u are right what you say about the many who are demonstrating building cloud chambers, many leave out the necessary maths in order to make these things perform properly.
Thanks! Yeah, most of the builds I see here are very empirical, and they don't really put any effort into making them correctly. Oftentimes, the builds get a lot of attention because they are published by a popular RUclipsr, but they are not really good.
Awesome project - Making one with my daughter. We _just about_ got this working.. but ours is a bit feeble - just one or two trails 😂 A few questions you may be able to help we with please...
- Should the bottom ideally be airtight - where the base intersects the peltier? where the acrylic box intersects the base?
- The top for yours looks like it has a lid? is this so? is it needed ?
- How much alcohol to put in the sponge at the top? we try adding some by syringe, but sometimes add too much and it drips down - will that ruin it?
- Is it possible that our sources are weak? taken from old smoke detectors - if they are past their lifetime might the source be weak?
Sorry for so many questions!
Hi! It is nice to hear that you are trying to replicate my project!
- It does not have to be strictly airtight, but it is preferable. Otherwise, the air from the environment can mix with the alcohol vapour in the chamber which is not good. You can see it in the video (9:00) that the bottom part has a channel where the acrylic plates can sit. It is a quite tight fit, so it is airtight. And of course that plastic thingy sits tightly on the top of the Peltier cooler.
- Yes, it has a lid, it must have a lid. Otherwise, it would be a cloud pot and not a cloud _chamber_. It must be an enclosed environment, otherwise you cannot create the ideal conditions for the alcohol vapour to form.
- Ideally, a lot. If you have a sponge or a felt or something very porous, you should soak it to the point where it almost starts to drip. I realized it with my large cloud chamber that one needs a LOT of alcohol. A lot of vapour is needed to really fill up the volume of the chamber and create the supersaturated layer.
- Yes, but even without a source you should see traces from the natural background radiation and cosmic rays. Even after 432 years, you should still have half of your Am 241 from the smoke detector. So unless you have it since the pyramids, it should not be a problem. I am more suspicious about your chamber and the amount of alcohol.
Oh, and another tip! When you start seeing the "drizzling" droplets at the bottom of the chamber, get a plastic pipe, a plastic ruler or something similar, and start to rub it with a polymer cloth close to the chamber. You'll be surprised. :)
Thanks for your responses👍 . Also "it would be a cloud pot and not a cloud chamber" made me LOL .
You're welcome. I also uploaded a short yesterday about this topic. Please check it, it is only 1 minute.
Its working pretty well now :-)
Just as reference: We're putting about 20ml of alchohol into the sponge.. also changing the lighting source dramatically can show/hide the results.
Yes, a good incident light angle and view angle is crucial to see it well. I am glad you made it work!
My favorite channel
Thank you!
How long are the screws you used? Can you provide a link for it? Thanks.
Hi! I can not provide a link, but I can tell you that the bolts are M4x50mm hex socket head cap screws.
@@CuriousScientist Hi thanks for your response. I had another question, what do you think about the viability of producing cloud chambers on a mass scale using TEC modules? Do you think this would be possible? What constraints might there be?
It is possible, but the cooling has to be good. Otherwise, I don't see issues.
Why do you turn on the bottom cooler first? Is there a safety concern?
It is more like common sense. The bottom cooler has to cool the top one, right?! So, it is better to already start providing cooling for the top cooler by first powering on the bottom cooler. Then, afterwards the top cooler can be powered on, too. Otherwise, they might behave "funny" if they are started at the same time.
I have a question: rather than using a high quality heatsink which is likely to be quite expensive, would stacking the modules you described above and the place a smaller heatsink at the bottom that is submerged in frozen ice pack gel (can reach temperatures like -30 to my knowledge) work as a sufficient replacement for the heat dissipation system?
Hi! Absolutely! As long as you can keep it cold, anything works.
If you can't find anything second hand, then Thermalright has plenty of heatsinks are $20-35 range.
E.g. Assassin King 120 SE goes for $20 and is very simular to whats used here
Fascinating!
Thank you! Science is indeed cool and fascinating!
Incredible design!
Thank you!
Why did you not put thermal paste under the piece of glove?
Because the glove is so thin, it doesn't matter.
Hi there, I want to increase the surface area of the cooling side so I can see the trails in a larger surface area. Also it is difficult to see inside the chamber due to the small size of the chamber.
What would be the max surface area size you think I can do? Would 8cmX8cm work? Could I go larger?
I am using one TEC 2 module so it should be more powerful than these.
Hi! I have a video on building a 20x20 cm Peltier-cooled cloud chamber. Check that video, and you'll get a rough idea about the necessary cooling. BTW, there are several TEC2 Peltier coolers, so I have no suggestions because you haven't provided any parameters.
@@CuriousScientist @@CuriousScientist Hi, the module I am using is a TEC2-19006. Also, what do you think of the use of a high voltage grid within the chamber? Is it required?
I see that you have not used it in any of your videos.
Actually, I am working on the addition of a grid. It is not necessary, but it makes the traces more visible. So if it is not a big trouble, you should add it.
Hi! I would like to know how could you provide 90W for the bottom Peltier?
Did you use a especific power supply?
And why did you use a dc-dc converter?
Hi! The answers to your questions are carefully discussed in the video. Take your time and watch it!
I used a 12 V power supply and two DC-DC converters to adjust the voltage to both Peltier coolers individually.
I've embarked in replicating this. The most trouble I'm having is with the stupid acrylic sheets. Any advice?
Use smart acrylic sheets instead of stupid ones...
(If you don't describe the issue, I cannot help.)
@CuriousScientist I was just enduring my first experience with cutting acrylic sheets. Went through a few different methods, but finally got decent results with a proper setup with good clamps, a straight edge, a plastic trimmer blade, etc. I tried to do it without clamps and with an exacto knife at first, and found out pretty quickly that I wasn't very good at it. Finally got the chamber built, and I'm just awaiting on a power supply to arrive in a day or two. Great tutorial, very grateful for the clear explanations and instructions you gave. Hoping to see some alpha trails soon!
@@TrueBlueKangaroo They are relatively easy to cut if you know the technique. Just use a ruler and a sharp knife. After making the first cut, pull the knife through the groove you just created 5-10 times. You can still hold the ruler in place so the knife has a guide. Then put the sheet at the edge of the table in a way that the cut is facing upwards and it is parallel with the edge of the table. Support the whole area of the sheet sitting on the table and then just push the part down with a hand that is "hanging" in the air. You just really need a knife, a ruler and patience.
could it be made rainbow do you think?? or maybe useing addresable leds?
You can use colored LEDs to illuminate the oversaturated alcohol vapor, but making rainbow is based a different principle.
Hi, this is a very helpful video. I am trying to build this chamber for a school project. Is it reusable for multiple sessions? Also, what low radiation samples (minerals or other materials) could I use where one is a strong alpha emitter and one is a strong beta emitter? This is because I want to see if I can identify betas and alphas based on how they deflect near a magnet combined with their track shapes. Thanks!
Do you think a permanent magnet is strong enough to deflect them?
Hi! A strong neodymium magnet should be good enough, but you might not notice large deflections because the surface area is small (short path). The device can run as long as you want, but for a very long-term use, I would avoid plexi similar acrylic sheets for the chamber because they can crack due to the alcohol vapor. For the minerals, use Google. 😉
@@CuriousScientist Thank you, what dimensions of the stage do you think would have long enough paths to see deflection?
This is very hard to answer. It depends on how you create the particles. Their speed and the strength of the external magnetic field determine the curvature of the trajectory. The formula is r=mvqB, where r is the radius of the curvature, m is the mass of the particle, v is the speed, q is the charge, and B is the magnetic flux densely.
@@CuriousScientist Thank you for your insight again, I would like to ask another question if that's okay. I need to have good quality footage of the tracks so that I can look over them afterwards. Your video was a good example of the quality I am looking for, what kind of camera did you use?
I've watched a lot of your videos and I love them. But I still can't settle my mind on which peltier model should I use to make a single stage drink chiller/ or a personal ac (for use outdoor of course). Can you please recommend a peltier model for my use case? And also, is the TEC12708 the most efficient?
Hi! It depends on a lot of parameters. You haven't said anything about your power source, required cooling parameters and so on. Also, these Peltiers typically have similar efficiency, they just have different cooling power.
@@CuriousScientist for power source, I want to use 3x 3,7v lithium cell. For cooling power I'm not sure exactly but about 20-40w. I'm planning to cool the hot side by air with a radiator about 2/3 as big as a typical cpu cooler. I will appreciate any advice about my setup
If you want such a small cooling power, maybe even a 12703 is enough. You can check the datasheet of the Peltier coolers and see their charts. You can then see the achievable cooling power vs temperatures. Then you can pick that is closest to your requirements. However, 20 W cooling power is not so much, so don't have very high expectations.
@@CuriousScientist ok, thank you for your time.
@@long-d4k You're welcome. Let me know in the future about how your system works.
if the top Peltier is running at 7v and 1.88 amps , its total power generated is 13.16 watts , of which considering 30% efficiency will be converted to cooling , ie about 4 watts . the bottom Peltier's load is this 13.16 watts only , where did the additional 7watts come ?
Hi! The thermal load on the bottom Peltier's cold side is the Joule heat (U*I) of the top Peltier _plus_ the heat pumped by the top Peltier.
Is it possible to build the same but liquid cooled?
Sure.
@@CuriousScientist I motivated my physics teacher to build one with me so I don't know what's the best choice for long term. The device also needs to be easily handled, and we want to avoid parts that break over short time.
If you want an easy to handle device, then forget about water cooling. A CPU cooler is much simpler and especially cheaper. And on the long run it is easier to maintain. I can get this thing up and running within 2 minutes, and all I need is to connect 2 pairs of cables and put a little rag with alcohol in the chamber. Simple.
@@CuriousScientist ok thanks. I'll try to build my prototype as you showed, and maybe make it longer by adding one CPU cooler with the 2 cells.
Thanks for your advices!
Mine is having an issue. The alcohol just condenses at the bottom and nothing happens. My bottom peltier is a 12715 running at 12V and the top one is a 12712 running at 6V. My chamber is a 60mm diameter copper plate above the peltiers, with a plastic tube thats about 6" tall and 60mm in diameter as well and sits on top of the copper plate. I let the peltiers run for awhile, frost forms all around the plate, yet inside the chamber nothing happens and a liquid forms at the bottom. If I put something warm on the top of the chamber, also nothing happens and the liquid once again forms but no saturation occuring. I don't really know what is going wrong, and I am unsure what to do from here. The only thing I can thing that is potentially happening is the liquid on the bottom is infact just condensed water from the 91% isopropyl and it is not infact alcohol, but even if it is just water, no saturation is happening.
Hi! Have you done any measurements of the temperature of the bottom plate? It should go below -25°C in order to create the supersaturated alcohol vapour. It sounds like your bottom plate is too warm.
Why it is warm is a different story. Have you read my article on my website? I wrote a very detailed description of my system and your system seems to not follow those guidelines. It seems like you are "overdriving" the Peltiers and their waste heat is not dissipated properly. What kind of cooler do you use for the bottom Peltier?
@@CuriousScientist A CPU cooler similar to the one you had. Thermal paste applied between the 12715 and the CPU heat sink, and another layer between the 12715 and the 12712. I do not know the exact temperature of the top cooler attached to the plate, but my temperature gun arrives Monday. Drops of water on it freeze almost instantly though, which means at the very least it is cold. Which sort if implies the liquid condensing on the plate is alcohol and not water, since all the water should just freeze at the bottom.
Let's wait until that thermometer arrives. However, if you bought one of those IR thermometers, it might not be the best choice. A Pt100 or a K-type thermocouple would have been a better choice. In the meantime, you can try decreasing the voltage of the modules. It sounds counterintuitive, but les voltage can lead to lower temperatures due to the less Joule heat being generated.
@@CuriousScientist ok I've tested the temperature, it's only getting to -16C with the 12712 reduced to 3.3V and the 12715 remaining at 12V. Im not sure why it's achieving such poor results considering I got the 12715 and 12712 running at 12V and 6V (which did indeed have worse results) and it worked for the guide I read, but mine doesn't even get close. Not really sure what to do from here
I knew it was the temperature!
Well, get a better cooler. Or follow maybe my video instead of the guide you read.
Like your vids! You sound a lot like me and also curious in the same things, it's creepy actually :D
Thank you very much!
Are you me by any chance? 😀
@@CuriousScientist Maybe, are you also into lasers, RF stuff, radioactivity, 3d printing, circuit logic analyzers, smart home, VR? :D
Ah, then you are 50-60% me. 😄
@@CuriousScientist You'll get there :DDD
How much is this gonna cost?
I have all the parts listed on my website so you can calculate it... This tiny chamber is not super expensive, maybe around $100-150 with all the parts.
hey bro can i use 12705 with 12710. I have two 12v 5a smps one is variable and one is fixed also i have the 300W dc to dc buck converter
Hi! It should work.
@@CuriousScientist also I have a 12v 5a dc adaptor. So for 12710 I can use this adapter(*should I keep the V same because already the current is limited to 5a) and for the upper peltier 1205 I can use the 12v 5a SMPS for which can decrease the voltage to the upper peltier. Will this work now
Also my heatsink is L-10.5CM B-8CM H-4CM WITH FINS I'll just put it in water and freeze it. Also I will use a metal piece on peltier which I will colour black with permanent marker
5 A probably won't be enough for the 12710. The heatsink will probably be small. And the alcohol will dissolve the permanent marker...
@@CuriousScientist I'll then use a dark colour metal sheet. And will find a SMPS around 10A
Sir, online purchase link description
What???
I'm not trying to be rude, just help you pronounce the word parameter better its like (pah ram-iter), also I kind of get the basics of this in feeling but I like to keep most of it unknown until I have a reason to know it, and would like to ask you if you have ever looked up aerogel and starlight, I think aerogel may also nullify the transfer of cold at all compared to starlight, which is like glue and baking soda or something and only a heat insulator falls apart made from cheap supplies, but the gel should possibly disapate almost completely the transfer, so you would likely have to incorporate it in the inside in order to get more amazing results, but I'd like to hear your feedback.
No offense was taken. English is obviously not my native language so I appreciate constructive feedback. Sure, I have heard about the above materials (I am a material scientist, so it is kind of unavoidable to not know about them, especially aerogels). Aerogels are still some sort of exotic materials. They are expensive and hard to obtain. They are also brittle, so it would be really hard to incorporate them in my projects. I do not really need a good insulation in this specific project because it is a very little volume and the Peltier cooler and the CPU cooler can deal with the heat pretty well.
You can try to make air conditionel with peltie =40 degree
It won't work, even if you suggest it under all my Peltier cooler related videos...
14:53 don't do this at home.
proceeds to work with piece that was extracted from smoke alarm desighned 4 homes .
I am fairly educated in this field, so I know what I am doing. But that small piece of americium could cause a lot of issues if it is handled negligently.
Are the ads really worth it...?
What do you mean?
@@CuriousScientisti had 2 ads in the begining, 2 in the midle and 1 in the end. It's worsening the watching experience sooo much and you only have 10k subs, you shouldn't even earn a $ or two from this video
So i think ads are worsening your content's quality
Well, the easiest way to avoid this is to not watch my videos.
Also, the ads generate income, so I can pay for the components you can see in the video and I can pay for the web hosting for my website.
Why should not I earn money with my videos?
@@CuriousScientist it isn't what i said. I think it isn't worth the trouble. But hey man, do what you want, it's your channel, your videos, your content and i enjoy watching it. I discovered you with the linear CCD video btw. But 7 ads is really a lot... too much in my opinion
Hmm, that 7 ads is interesting because I haven't added that much. I only added 4. But I guess, I can only mark where the ads should pop up, but I cannot control how many ads should be shown at a place. I reduced it to two, we will see if other people will complain. (BTW, among those "only 10k subs", you are the first one to complain about the ads. 😄)
@RcLifeOn
I saw his video, and unfortunately, he has no idea about how to work with Peltier coolers.
@@CuriousScientist lol Ya that does not surprise me. Well if he sees this video he should be able to learn a lot!.
This is a great project. I want to make one to put on display. Building it into a shadow frame will also look very cool.
Looking forward to the 10 by 10. Managing all that heat can be difficult but you don't need much cooling power just need a large difference with these cloud chambers. Maybe using insulated glass could help with a larger chamber so you don't need as much cooling power. Also, the website looks great!
Thank you! I hope anyone watching the video will be able to learn something from it.
I think I more or less figured out the thermal management for the larger system. Let's hope it will also work in practice. Now I just need to save some money so I can buy the components. 😄
Also, thanks for the compliment on the website. I am glad to receive such feedback because I try to keep the website clean and tidy and easy to read.
@CuriousScientist Whats the rough estimate needed for the components for the larger chamber build?
@@mudbuckets8902 Hi! I think I could make a large one with a roughly 20 cm x 20 cm area from $400-$600, depending on the parts I can source.