The CELICA SAGA - Part 1 (Cooling Fan Always ON?)
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- Опубликовано: 11 июн 2022
- Customer brought his 1997 Toyota Celica Convertible "Beater with a Heater" over to diagnose a couple annoying issues at 232k miles.
Issue 1: Radiator fan is always ON when the key is ON.
Issue 2: Annoying "surge" when cruising under load on the highway.
Let's dive right in and see what this classic Celica has in store :)
IVAN'S TEST LIGHT:
www.amazon.com/dp/B000M5ZWBA?...
BANANA JACK ADAPTERS:
www.amazon.com/dp/B07C535GBD?...
Enjoy!
Ivan 
Авто/Мото
Sounds like the car suffered front end damage. Whoever made the repairs forgot to swap over the temp sensor from the old radiator to the replacement one.
Nice breakdown on Toyotas crazy three relay cooling fan operation. Even though it looks complicated it apparently prevented disaster. He had one fan working and a missing temperature switch and still not over heating. Lol
Not so sure there is a budget concern, the owner has a lot of parts in the trunk that likely weren't needed.
Time for a coolant temp switch and a condenser cooling fan motor or motor assembly. Might find a used one as nothing shows on Rockauto for A/C fans.
Makes a lot of sense to verify the wiring and relays for integrity. Those cooling fan wires left unplugged from their sensors/switches however, indicate someone was messing around and left their work incomplete which is why the radiator fan is on 100%. He forgot to include that bit of info in his 2 page essay.
I agree, the owner just sounds abit cheap, i guess when the car needs an oil change that will be too much $ also ? the owner could probably find a really close match for the fan in the junk yard.
Ivan: making car repair great again!
Fan and a switch are cheap money. I would want it fixed right. Look forward to seeing the stumbling fix.
Ivan: I’ve been working on auto electrical for almost 50 yrs. & I really enjoy your “ thought process” ! You think out load because you have to hear your own voice , which makes sense to you, but in a garage atmosphere, my guys think I’m losing it…. because I talk to myself too much ! I am my best friend, for things make sense to me,,, & they don’t understand what’s going on other than replacing burnt fuses! LOL ! You are good ! You would be lying if you said that you didn’t learn something new when you “ pull back the Onion ! That one thing,,, you will forget in a few months if you don’t see the exact problem on the same model car ! LOL !
Nice to see a customer who really cares about his vehicle. Granted he's on a budget but I bet he would want it running as designed.
At 0: 32, "Automatic transmission, unfortunately", I'm with you on that Ivan!
My drink came out my nose when you said "it's not a Hyundai or Volkswagen"
Are you old enough to work on that car! Your awesome you and( SMA Eric O) are my guys.Honest straight to the point kind of diag. Working people need techs like you fair honest and fixed! Don't change ! That's why we watch.
The customer obviously loves that car 👍.
I believe that wire to the ECM is just to tell it that the fan(s) are on so it can adjust for load. The control is all old school thermo switches and relays.
Segue - My then teen aged son (he just turned 40) had just learned to drive, one of his buddies had an old Taurus with the exact same problem. At that time they used a GEM module (a metal box, full of mostly relays) to run many of the under hood items. I pulled the box off, cut off the rivets holding the cover on, hoping for a "Russian fix". None of the relays could easily be replaced, nor could I get a file/sandpaper in between the contacts to clean them. Of course the kid had no money and there are no "auto recycling yards" near by. I put the metal cover back on loosely. I took the handle of a screwdriver and gave it several good whacks. IT STARTED WORKING ! I used electrical tape to hold the cover back on. I was a "legend" in the neighborhood !
Unbelievably fast diag on the fans Ivan! Thanks!
Amazing as Always Ivan!
Ivan, you had a chance to frighten the owner, the words: Part 1 of 20 :-D
I have to give it to the owner, he tryed to fix it himself and didn't damage anything, and he kept all the parts he removed.
Thank you PHAD. Another great diagnostic video.
Ivan on to part II. Like how you do everything possible to help the customer. Also like how you show the system functionality through the wiring diagram. Looking forward to part two. 😊
I've been watching a lot of your videos being home on Disability. I just started panicking not being able to find part 2 to this video until I realized you just uploaded it today! Duh : Thanks for giving me terrific diagnosis tips and something to keep me entertained. I love watching you do the actual fixes the most because I don't get the scanner stuff all the time. But you sure gotta be smart to attack this stuff. Wished you lived out here in So Cal. You'd make a Killing!!!
Aaah! Have to wait! Oh well, hi Ivan, hope you have a great day!!
Excellent video! It should be relatively easy to find a fan, and hopefully the coolant temperature switch won't be a problem to obtain. Looking forward to part 2.
Hey Ivan. I had a customer with that surging problem!! This video will help me a lot on this job. I will check it out! Awesome video!! Great diagnosis!!
Great breakdown on how these relays work! Always stick to your basics when troubleshooting electrical concerns. Works every time! Good job Ivan!
OEM diagram was absolutely key here 🙂
Hi Ivan, another great diagnosis. I have a 2000 Camry with the V6 1MZ-FE motor. Same set up with the cooling fans. I replaced the AC trinary switch from Rockauto and had the fans run at high speed as soon as the car was startedd. Even though this was supposed to be the correct part, it would be off at low pressure as it should to cut the compressor and off at high pressure to cut the compressor. But it also controls the fans when the AC pressure in the condenser is high and should turn off to make the fans run in parallel. But when I put the switch in, the fans ran at high speed as soon as started. So this was not the correct switch. Found a Denso one at the wreckers that was labelled OFF, ON, OFF. This is the correct part. Saw a Corolla where the Denso switch was labelled OFF, OFF, OFF. So Toyota changed the set up for different models/years. Not surprisingly, one method to check if the fans are both working is simply to disconnect the AC trinary switch, or the connector going to the rad coolant temperature sensor or the connector going to the fans. Needless to say, this problem drove my crazy. The factory service manual provided the answer.
Good diagnosis. Definitely needs that coolant switch.
"Rev up your engine!" - Scotty Kilmer It seems that a new fan and temperature switch is cheap compared to the parts the customer already spent. Love the diagnostic, always seems easy when you do it Ivan.
I was perfectly happy buying cheap china parts from Rockauto. I never worried about them dying before their time. I loved saving the money. NOW, I find my self buying only name brand and spending more money. THanks a lot!
Great stuff man.
Very Interesting video Mr Ivan, I have found out that these toyota fan system is very dependable unless like in your case has been manipulated.
Bright Sunny day. Convertible top down. All that is missing is that beautiful wife of yours sitting in the passenger seat. Thank you for the video.
that shuddering is probably because around 60 the torque converter is right on the edge of locking and unlocking, depending on engine load. add to it 232k on the odo its probably lacking a little power so any small variable will try to unlock/lock it. those torque converter clutches wear out too.
Good theory, but this wasn't a case of torque converter shudder 🙂
I owned a 93 Celica with the same engine (there wasn't much difference between the 5th and 6th gen). I had an almost identical issue with my cooling fan running non stop. Turns out one the wires on that lower rad temp sensor had broken inside near the sensor connector (looked fine visually - probably salt corrosion). This caused the same thing electrically which put the fan in fail-safe mode. Miss that car!
Very good video I like it. Question is how do you access the wiring diagram and labor guides as well?
i got the best socket i have ever had from snapon the other day its 8mm on one side flip over 10mm on the other side they make them in several sizes
That three relay paralel/series cooling fan system is used in many French PSA cars.
You couldn’t resist a celica!
those are fun cars I had one at one time, looking forward to watching the video find out what the deal is. It was 111 yesterday you were making me sweat.
Good morning Ivan!
Happy Sunday!
Great car.
I think the ecm give some extra protection by giving a ground when instrument water temperature indicator sensor (which you did not show the connection) peg up.its a failsafe protection when radiator water temp fail to open when over-temp.just my logic.
Perhaps...also it might be an input to the ECM to bump up the idle speed when the fans are running full blast 👍
Keep in mind that grounding turns off fans. I think it's more likely an input to the ECM to let it know that either the engine or A/C has requested cooling.
Oh no,part 2!
5S-FE motor one of Toyota's best ever as long as you do timing belts.
Haha I have a 95. This thing refuses to die. I haven't touched anything in the engine bay except thermostat and battery since 2014. Might need a TB now that it hit 300k
What do you mean you haven't seen one of those in a long time. All you need to do is watch Scotty Kilmer's channel and I would bet at some point you will see one of those. Great video!
I love Ivan. He is not afraid of his background.
What background?
I think he is referring to your Trump flag and MAGA sign.
Well,,,, Dave,,,,, make a statement & run ! Time to “ man up “ & explain ! Or have you “ just moved on ! “ Don’t reply…. keep movin on !
I always thought the computer looked at the ECT and when the computer saw a certain voltage it close the relays turning on the fans I did not know the radiator had a pressure sensors like the AC douse.
Toyota fan switch is wired from the relay ground wire when the switch is defective or unplugged the fan is engaged, use your multimeter to do a continuity check from the fan switch wire to the relays wiring, if you do not find it there it's broken or wired wrong , the fan switch is on the thermostat housing it's a single wire there's also a single wire gauge switch it's normally smaller than the fan switch, fan switch wire is usually white and gauge switch wire is usually yellow green , hope that helps . Blessings.
Or just follow the wiring diagram 😁
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics wiring diagram is good but they tend to defer a little with wiring colors and relay pin location, I have a ee100 corolla and a ae 100 electrical wiring diagram manual and it's the same across them all .
Maybe that wire at the bottom that was just hanging out should be connected to the coolant temperature switch?
Ivan, it's your fault. Not really. Advertising the Aultel. Now for $600.00 you can do your own diagnostics, run down to the parts store, buy all these Chinese parts, come home and install them. Then they will start scratching their heads wondering why the vehicle still doesn't run. Then they come to you with a trunk full of used parts wanting you to fix it, but wait, don't spend a lot of time because I replaced everything I was supposed to. But the Aultel only tells you so much. Watching not only your videos but others really make me laugh. Every back yard mechanic wants to be a mechanic but no matter what you give them to work on these newer vehicles, they still have no idea what to do. Then once you diagnose them, just tell them so they can take it home and really screw it up more, not realizing that the car has to be programmed most of the time. So back to you. Just love it. lol
It is what it is haha
joins the owner in the guessing game, but I'd guess bad or unhooked radiator coolant temp sensor/s and an EGR valve issue flowing too much, but maybe evap. purge issue.
now time to watch and see.
I think those had a egr vacuum modulator, if those get goofy or have a vacuum/pressure delay/supply issue, like clogged/rusted steel tubing or the exhaust port tap(toyota loved to use steel tubing) all sorts of bad things would happen, from mild to major stumbles or complete part throttle/tip in cutout (old carbureted 22R's were bad for that)
I don't recall if the egr valve is bleeder type or not, if it is and rusted it may not be bleeding off enough and causing over-opening. head bashing ensues.
other thing, maybe an evap. purge flowing too much or charcoal filter fuel soaked.
Hopefully the owner get a new temp switch and fan. I’m curious of stumbling issue, I’m experiencing a similar issue
Part 2 will answer all your questions 👍😉
The stumbling sounds like ignition problems, but I'll watch part 2 to see.
could it be overcooling if fan runs all the time
When you go through a manufacturers electrical systems school, nearly all scenarios begin at the desk by describing a problem, then immediately going to the schematic to logic your way to the problem. 4 out of 5 times you can figure it out before even popping the hood.
Take the time to RTFB.
Just when you started reading the letter: suspect counterfeit parts.
I bet there is only part 1 and Ivan called it that just to mess with the owner 😂
His worst fears realized 3 part series
i sure wish i could have you look at my moms 93 toyota celica gt convertable been at shop for get this 9 months and towed it home yestarday not fixed of course
What's wrong with it? 9 months is ridiculous 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Pulled all the fuses 9 times…..what,,that didn’t fix it! Dah ! LOL
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics yes it is it runs rough and dies put alot of parts on it at first she could put seafoam in it and it would run ok for a little while thrn more seafoam.so many parts to name all the obvious fuel pump distributor.t-chain,ecm........i watch your channel alot you guys are fantastic at what you do,enjoy watching and learning ,thanks
Just replace the temperature switch.
How did you get Scotty Killmers car?
the 5S-FE was one of the most reliable engines Toyota ever made. was on the Camry Rav4 as well. Also a non-interference engine
I think all Toyota engines from the 90s over 2.0L are non interference and bomb proof 👌🙂 The smaller 1.6 and 1.8 like to burn oil after 200k miles if non synthetic oil is used 😕
I have an old Camry with the 3S-FE engine. Broken cambelt last month at highway speed! Zero consequential engine damage...
You got this you can do it
No worries... It's just a Toyota 😁👍
Oh boy. We have a part 1. Lol.
can't wait to see remaining parts
Bad or missing Relay. This was all over the Toyota Celica forums as a pattern failure. Don't Remember which one though.
Interesting. Never seen a Toyota OEM relay fail in any way... Or decide to take a hike on its own 😅
I rest my case ! Can’t remember everything, with all wiring I do,,,,, 3 months ago was 2 lifetimes ! LOL
Oh oh! The dreaded part deus. Will there be a part three?
Good diagnostics but the removed parts and that circuit isn't typical. The cooling fan being on all the time in cold weather will keep the engine cooler and prolong warmup, if trips are shorter it may never warm up. Porr performance guess, at 25 years and 230K miles parts can be failing like the transmission or ignition parts, surges could be a transmission works but isn't the best, the injectors or other parts providing gas and spark work kind of but have all those years and millage cycles on them.
Ivan making his own power probe with 17 pieces of wire and 16 connections haha...
I think you should have tested it before changing the MAP, just to verify the customer complaint.
Not to “ over rule” but I would have too ! Just to verify Chinese junk is our biggest electrical hurdle ! New does not mean good! Amen !!
Eh didn't want to waste my time with that lol
Possibly the pcm is looking for a feed back voltage for load?
Uh-oh there is a part 2, will there be a third? Lol
The wire going to the ECM likely tells the ECM to raise RPM because AC is running
So the chugging trans may be an overheat problem caused by dead fan and missing thermo switch.
Why would anyone delete the switch?
You might have fixed the stumbling by swapping back the OEM MAF if some other part the owner replaced after that was actually causing the problem but the Chinese MAF mimicked the SAME problem.
Even though it's as rare as lighting striking twice in the same place I've actually seen such problems
I noticed he didn't verify customer complaint before making changes. That can come back and bite.
These old Toyotas can have so many annoying little issues, but they keep running.
Son in from Tokyo, borrowed a mid 2010 Celia that has an oil drip🤨, pos gets to sit on street after piss’n on my driveway. And no I’m not looking for trouble🤣
Just like home delivery,,,,block off your driveway ! LOL
Coolant temp sensor....Ebay special. My guess from 1:29 into the video
Nice diagnostic of a deceptively simple circuit, but with a confusing operation. At first I thought relay 1 was a normally open (as it's printed on the case), instead of the normally closed required, but didn't count on the radiator temp switch being replaced by a plug :-)
Very curious for part 2!
I had to watch in again EGR relay is also part of the controlling side of the fan relays
EGR relay? What's that?
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics My bad E/G MAIN RELAY
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics what’s That,,,,, easy answer,,,,,, another guy that should not play around with his car before taking it to a garage!
Still learning here.
@@fredwalker839 playing around with the car is the best way to learn! It helps to have an extra car just in case you screw up 😁
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻🌷
Can I put the radiator temp switch where the radiator drain plug goes ?
In part 2 you disabled the EGR valve by I will assume plugging the vacuum line otherwise you would have a vacuum leak. The Celica is OBD2 correct so by disabling the EGR wouldn't that throw a code? If it threw a code wouldn't that put the ECM or PCM into a limp mode?
👌👌👏👍👍👍
Part 2 coming soon lol
EGR could be a vac leak, bad hose, bad egr valve etc.
So the part that I got from Rockauto was not defective, just the wrong part for this vehicle even though it said it was for a 2000 Camry.
Couldn't you check continuity of the suspected bad fan or apply power to it, to see if it runs ?
Sure. I did that with a test light which is a better test than an ohmmeter 😉
Morning
That would be "scalded cat".
Scolded would make sense too... BAD KITTY! 😻🤣
Not only do I love your diagnostics and detail in explaining but love your Trump Support!!!
The wiring diagram doesn't seem to suggest that the two radiator fan switches vary by engine. I'm asking myself why they would engineer the system with two switches, and the only thing I can figure is for fail-safe purposes. For example, if the radiator cracked and there was no coolant in the radiator, that switch wouldn't activate because it wouldn't be in contact with the coolant. However, the secondary switch on the engine is in an aluminum engine part, which would be able to activate as the engine heats up, even without coolant contact. I may be interpreting the diagram wrong, but one switch appears to be a two-wire, and the other appears to be a single-wire case grounded unit. Also, take notice of the (#1) and (#2) notations on the two legs of the circuit.
Keep in mind that this system is such that "open" means the fans need to run. If both water temp switches are present, the fans would only run if both indicate an overheat condition - quite the opposite of fail-safe.
If you lost your coolant, the radiator fans would be quite useless 😅
@@russellhltn1396 Yes, now that I look at it again, I was overthinking the whole thing. This is quite an interesting system, and it was hard to view everything in the video. My sister had a '91 Camry, and the wire corroded at the radiator fan switch terminal, which kept the fan on all the time. It was an easy fix, but I was always intrigued how the open circuit caused the fan to stay on all the time. A lot of other systems seem to work on the opposite principle.
Uh oh, a 90's Toyota. WWSKD? (What would Scotty Kilmer do?) :D
I'm guessing something like, ...watch my video on how to make your car run better with a bit of spray cleaner....
I say try some injection cleaner to see if that cures the stumbling.
I printed the diagram to follow along. The diagrams are absolutely incorrect, which is frustrating. Check the e/g main relay, pin 4. The diagram shows that when the ignition key is off, the relay coil gets de-energized, and the battery + wire (protected by a 100A fuse) gets grounded. These are pins 2 and 4 being connected at the relay. Awesome, a car that blows a 100A fuse by design when you turn off the key.
Also, as far as the pcm wire being connected to the fan relays 1 and 2.. How do you know if that's a pcm input (where it's monitoring for water temp and a/c press sensors,) or an output (which allows the pcm to turn on the fans?) Perhaps check data pids and bi-directional controls to see?
No, diagram is correct. Take another look. Pins 2 and 4 are never connected 😁
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Ah-ha! You're correct... yet so am I. The copy I printed from autorepairsource (which is free with my library card,) has the blade of the relay drawn opposite of yours. My copy shows the blade is always connected to pin 2, while yours is always connected to pin 1. So on your copy, when the e/g main relay coil isn't energized, pin 1 gets grounded. That must be weird to see that the 2 30a rdi and cds fuses are connected to ground and can carry current as a ground when the key is off. That makes way more sense than my copy though.
@@ablackformula yeah aftermarket diagrams are often incorrect and can get you in a rabbit hole 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics prime example,,,like parts,,,,you get what you pay for ! LOL
miss-drawn wiring diagrams and flip flopped pin components was commonplace back then, you always had to be on your toes and never just jump in stabbing and poking with test leads and power/ground sources or magic smoke would escape and you're left holding the bill.
A fan motor and a temp sensor….how expensive can it be? I’d fix it.
From Amazon,,, cheap,,,fix your problem,,,,get dealer parts for this guy’s Baby!
For once a partscannon who put proper Japanese parts on it not some cheap auto zone or eBay special parts on it
Except the MAP sensor 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Ya that was the worst kind of arftermarket it was a eBay special
Certainly not trying to tell a fisherman how to fish but a fan being in a constant on position makes it very difficult for the engine to get up correct operating temperatures and can cause a bucking problem ask me how I know.... Years before RUclips I ran into that with a Mazda GLC where the fan was wired up because otherwise it wouldn't work and I had no knowledge of basically anything other than how to change a tire and change your oil and my car could not pass in mission controls because of the constant on fan
Actually the thermostat is what controls operating temp setpoint... Fan can run all day long, won't hurt anything 😉
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I certainly understand what you're saying by it allowing more or less water through the water jackets in the block... Have watched the gauges jump back and forth up and down because the fan on the Mazda GLC was on at all times I finally passed the emissions test by pulling into the emissions place got out shut off the fan pulled into the bay and I passed I guess that's my individual case study perhaps not a reality case study lol
Finding an intermittent stumble under very specific conditions does not sound fun. Drive it until it gets worse. 😂
Every dual fan system is wired so that it one fan goes bad, the remaining fan goes on full time high speed
Actually in this case it shuts the other one down as well 😂. At least in low speed mode 😉
Ваня, что за прикол у тебя на стене с картинкой 130го ЗИЛа?
its irritating trying to find complete wiring diagrams without a pro subscription, I have a diy sub to all data for my truck and its missing a fair amount of diagrams, is disorganized also- the pro version is not..... its just rather expensive for the few (5) vehicles we have.