Zsh & Fish Are A Trap: Learn How To Use Bash First
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
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I've talked very adamantly in the past about how much I don't like Oh My ZSH and how I think that it's not only a bad idea to use it's also detrimental to the image of ZSH but this also extends to other shells like Fish as well with Oh MY Fish so today I thought I'd talk about why you should learn how to use Bash first before considering another shell.
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I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand I totally agree that learning the underlying principles of any tool in your kit is a positive thing for long term growth. On the other, the older I get the more I can see the perspective of end users who quite simply want a means to an end without caring how it works. Both sides have merit in context.
For sure, but as I said towards the start I'm more directing this at the people who actually care about how their stuff works.
If you have a reason to be in Linux other than curiosity, there's almost certainly a value and probably an eventuality that you should understand the underlying principles. Some are able to slide by without it because Google and collaborative environments, but it doesn't take very long next to someone who does know what they're doing and those principles to notice when it's missing. If you're a software engineer, this may not be a critical function of your job. If you're systems engineer, devops role...you shouldn't be sliding by.
The old problem of ease of use and learning, many think ease of use means hiding the complexity from the user altogether, the ideal way would be exposing the complexity to the user but providing an easy path through said complexity, still easier said than done...
It's good that both extremes do exist but I think you should be conscious user who knows what they're getting into before they do it.
my favourite fish command is "bash".
oh-my-zsh is bloat. It can add a second or even more to your terminal emulator load time. Learn how to customize zsh yourself, there is plenty of documentation online. You don't need to use bash for months to learn zsh, just say no to oh-my-zsh.
So that's why luke smith was gonna rant about oh-my-zsh
Programs and applications are bloat.
or just install fish and never worry about configs or bloat
@@l4kr fish: has a messy codebase and this garbage is not even POSIX compatible.
zsh: POSIX compatible written in C. You can't do better than this.
Also learning to configure the shell is an essential part of knowing how tu use Unix systems.
I used bash for years before switching to zsh. I use zsh under my profile. But as root, bash. Always.
I agree with your points. Actually since I am a programmer by trade, this is true for other concepts like frameworks. I always say, learn the fundamental technology first. Understand it. When you switch to something like a framework or on topic zsh and ohmyzh for example, you already know what you need to.
Well I started using fish as my main shell when I realised all the configuration I did in zsh was there in fish by default. And zsh with all the configuration I want is quite noticeably slower .15s vs .05 for fish. That difference isn't affecting your productivity in any way, but it still is a noticeable difference nonetheless. And if you put #!/bin/bash at the top of your scripts, it'll run in bash anyway and none of your scripts will break.
At least on Arch there are system scripts marked as #!/bin/sh that are POSIX or written in Bash because it's assumed that Bash is your shell
@@BrodieRobertson I'm not an Arch user, but that sounds weird. I would think /bin/sh would be linked to bash even if you change your login shell, like how bin/sh is linked to dash on ubuntu.
@@JomJob Yup, /usr/bin/sh is symlinked to /usr/bin/bash on arch.
Don't tag Brodie's word as gospel, I'm wrong occasionally.
@@BrodieRobertson It is POSIX that /bin/sh be a Bourne type shell. Debian often has dash there (Debian Almquist shell) specifically to detect if scripts are mislabeled as sh when they need bash. Bash itself also has special behaviour for POSIX compatibility when run as sh. So.. not even bash will assume you want bash if you run bash as sh.
What about learning the original ```sh``` Bourne Shell first, before ```bash``` the Bourne Again Shell?
learn POSIX compliance
`sh` is mostly dead. Most distros just symlink `sh` to `bash` as it's mostly compliant.
I don't understand why people keep saying that running fish 'breaks' posix script. I've used fish as my main shell for years and I've never had a problem running or writing sh or bash scripts. Just put #!/bin/sh instead of #!/bin/fish in the first line. There you go. Anyway nobody is forced to write code for the same shell as their login shell. You can use fish as a login shell but still write bash if you want to share your scripts with more people. These days, I prefer writing in fish though, because it's much better and easier to write and read than posix shell script and the documentation is great.
The problem with using fish as your login shell is you will come across system scripts marked as #!/bin/sh and when fish is your login shell that won't go down well.
@@BrodieRobertson I don't use fish shell, but I really don't see a problem. Scripts marked as #!/bin/sh are run with whatever is symlinked to /bin/sh. It doesn't have to be fish, just because you are using it as your login shell. The one thing has literally nothing to do with the other. I could literally write my own shell, which only knows how to cd and I could use it as my login shell. No Problem for scripts using #!/bin/sh.
@@WizardGambles when system starts the scripts are not executed but sourced. There is a difference. When you source a script it modifies your current environment such as your environment variables. When sourcing a script no new shell process will be created, it will just use the current shell.
One can still set fish as default or login shell, but should make sure the their initialization scripts like /etc/profile are fish compliant.
I would recommend using fish only as a interactive shell. Bash as an interactive shell is very old school and complete garbage considering modern standards.
I looked at fish shell, and didn't go for it - I wanted a better bash - zsh. If I'm not in the mood to write bash scripts, (or it is not required) I usually just write JavaScript and do #!node at the top of the file.
@@BrodieRobertson Never had a problem with fish as my main shell on arch/manjaro, as I said. The computer runs the scripts in the shell you tell it too. Hell, even my bspwmrc was a sh script for the longest time until I bothered to rewrite it in fish. Just add the stuff you need to your PATH variable in fish and you're good to go, but that's like one line.
everyday im more and more convinced Brody is Luke with a wig and and a really bad fake Australian accent
What makes you say that?
Brodie is no 4chan brand fascist.
@@phylwx you are right little by little, Luke has showed himself to be a right winged, jesus freak, with some antiquated beliefs. Brodie lives in a little secluded island, i dont know if he has opinions about the western world and its decay
@@ΛάμψιςἈταξία It's very disappointing to hear that about Luke but I can't say you're wrong
Come on, Luke's extreme right wing views are really fun to watch.
Thumbnail reads weird, sync up the sentences with the colours
You're right, I was thinking it could be a bit better
Brodie Robertson thanks for all the content btw man you’re killing it
Thanks, I've been trying to improve on my weak points lately.
I loved your vid on ohmyzsh, I was always hesitant to install it because it seemed like too much, like it was bloat, and I'm glad I didn't
Thanks, I felt like it was a pretty good video for the time.
Same here. I never used zsh because I didn't care for the hype. Your approach to it is the only thing that was going to draw me.
@@RichardBronosky ohmyzsh is for hyping zoomers, true Zoomer shellers use easy-to-configure *plain* zsh
@@daveshouldaine2520 yes. I've been using zsh for about a month now. It's still a little mysterious. But, I'm learning it slowly. I used bash for 25 years and vim for 20, and never stopped learning new things about them.
I've been using fish for 4 years and I've never heard about a fish plugin manager. I just use it as a regular bash with autocompletion
The only reason I didn't start off with using oh my zsh was because I looked at it and said: "I just want these two things (syntax highlighting and fish autocompletion) and oh my zsh looks like it's going to make it too complicated". I'm actually surprised that I didn't install it because I thought it was too much work.
I admit I just use zsh because I used it on Mac and loved the syntax highlighting and autocompletion so much
Never got that weird ohmyzsh though
Looked like bloat
ZSH is great, I use it myself.
If it auto fills though why would you need to remember at all? It’s not like you’ll need to write it on paper at some point
Oh my zsh seemed to have a lot of stuff I didin't want/need, figured out how to get colorful outputs and autocompletion, that's all I needed from my ZSH lol
Why would have fish as login shell break your system?? Login shell is just a program being started by login command or terminal emulator, nothing else....
Not all bash scripts work in zsh... So it is not bash superset - e.g. read built-in in zsh doesn't have -a parameter.
Zsh is better for interactive use, bash for scripting.
If you want to learn, start with posix shell so use something like dash or ash. Then switch to bash. But most important thing in linux/Unix scripting is to understand what are shell built-in commands and what are external utilities. If you encounter Mac then you'll find out that some gnu stuff doesn't work, that bash there is old 3.5. if you meet some BSDs you see ksh! Good luck;)
For whatever reason my brain linked the shell symlinked to sh to the system shell I have no idea why. The point I was making wasn't specifically use bash, it was learn your default shell before you try anything else.
@@BrodieRobertson then you probably didn't change your login shell, which is just entry in your user's line in /etc/passwd, and I cannot imagine way it could break the system.
I suspect you changed default system shell (/bin/sh) via something like debian alternatives system. Fish is not posix compliant so then stuff breaks, of course.
i have been using linux for about 8 months now and today i switched to zsh and i love it
I switched to fish because tab completion on bash is broken on Fedora.
I agree, you do need to suffer a little, if you dont challenge yourseft you are not gonna grop. Muscle grows as a response to strees, the only caveat is it needs to be hable to overcome it or you will injure yourself.
My first shell was zsh. Now I use oksh! Zsh is too slow for my old laptop. Oksh is faster, lighter and have a clean single manpage. Much better!
For scrpting I just use dash.
Fish is actually the best of both worlds with this as it has abbreviations which don't hide the real commands for you, but instead just give you a shortcut for typing it and adding these aliases is soooo easy. Fish script IS better than POSIX compatible scripts as it's made for humans first and doesn't worry about posix compatibility. You can easily remember the syntax of most things after using it for a short time.
I really agree. Fish scripting is just superior. It have its faults ***cough cough*** read -p ***cough cough*** but it's waaaaay better and easier to read POSIX compatible lang.
Not even mentioning that for daily driving for average user this is the best shell
Oh, I am not using any plugins. For me, zsh is just a bash with syntax highlighting and better autocomplete
...fish bait, anyone? :)
My internet is bad atm, so I'll leave a like and a comment to help with the algorithm. Will watch later...
don't use fish. especially don't set default shell to fish.
lmao
Of my fish is barely used and in comparison to zsh, just not that needed
It comes pretty complete by default
I’m waiting for the “use ed(1) for 6 months before using lazy vi-sual bloat” ;-)
I might do a historical look back on ed
Sound advice!
Thanks.
I don't know man I kinda just knew you can do this stuff because isn't zsh a fork of bash or its earlier predecessors anyway ?
I surprisingly did not fall into this trap.
I love my fish shell and I have heard of oh my fish before. I thought it was just a bunch of configs that got popular, though, I had no idea it was a "plugin manager". I don't really see the point.
If there is some "plugin" I find interesting... just put it in the fish config? Yeah, I really don't get it.
Not sure I agree with avoiding fish/zsh as a new user, though. Autocomplete doesn't prevent you from learning. I've got an alias "git co" for "git checkout" and when I type it, in my head it's always "checkout", not "co". Don't know how zsh autocomplete works, but fish autocomplete is always from your history, so you have to have typed it correctly at least once. (or tab completed it, but even bash can do that, heh)
would be very nice to have a vid about creating first clean zshrc, most video available online rely on ohmyzsh
I like that idea
@@BrodieRobertson and I will like that video ;p
I came late in the game with fish and zsh. They're very nice. I think very bash like when I use them.
Excellent advices. More users should watch this. Many users just jump into these traps head first. Too many videos about all these shiny extra layers of scripts/tools that you "need" to use. Learn to be proficient with the default/standard tools first. The skill you acquire will be much much more portable and re-usable than the knowledge of those alternative tools. If you work on company or customer machines, those alternative tools might not be available.
If you want to make your workflow better: Fish
If you want to learn Linux: Bash
I used bash for years and I started using ZSH not too long ago because I needed some novelty, I love it, and I also use oh-my-zsh and I can still work even if it takes 50 more ms to open :p
Same thing happened with VIM, It is now roided up with plugins and man my workflow is so much better now.
I totally agree with your point of learning the low level stuff first, but if ZSH and oh-my-zsh makes you more efficient, why say no to efficiency?
I don't see any problem with using zsh out of the gate. My experience was that doing so allowed for some simple but super productive features bash didn't have, and yes, I did install ohmyzsh, but didn't really use any of the plugins - This didn't prevent me from creating my own aliases and functions in my ex file, and even customizing my prompt before realizing that I'd rather not spend hours doing so when Pure and powerlevel9k exist. But I do at least agree that omyzsh is not necessary, or even useful for most people.
Also all plugins extend a piece of software and all generally use functionality of the main software (or included libraries) to do it - an Emacs package doesn't become "not a plugin" because it is written in elisp. The same applies to zsh and ohmyzsh plugins. Similarly themes set the visual look of a piece of software, and zsh themes aren't "not a thing" because they are fancy custom prompts.
zsh w/ autocomplete and syntax highlighing > fish, just because of POSIX compliance
What do you gain by your interactive shell being POSIX compliant? I honestly don't understand this argument.
So you can write in POSIX compliant script
@@BrodieRobertson ^This
@@BrodieRobertson why do you want to write posix complaint code in an interactive shell?
@@BrodieRobertson I can understand you would like to write posix complaint code in a script, why in an interactive shell?
Never tried oh-my-zsh
I tried oh-my-posh on windows, and I absolutely hated it.
I have made my own aliases I like, did the new user setup, reverse engineered the prompt and I use autocomplete basically only for dirs and commands I know
One thing I don't like about ZSH is how to do terminal prompts like the ones oh-my-zsh uses
Custom prompts are extremely time consuming to make - although there are a couple theming frameworks that make things easier: powerlevel9k (now powerlevel10k) and pure are some examples. Powerlevel10k is modular based on environment variables - you can specify what you want in your prompt by setting them - might be a bit heavy, but I've never seen any performance problems and it looks great
nice video, was about to install zsh, you changed my mind.
I think the problem with zsh is *really* huge. Looking at my `man bash` vs `man zshall`, the bash page is about ¼th of the zsh combined man page (hence why they separated it into smaller man pages). So it's much harder to really configure zsh to do anything on your own, much less anything useful, which why such a plugin system became popular. I was able to configure bash to my liking (for the most part) in an evening or two by following the _Bash Pocket Guide_ from O'Reilly's and the bash man page. It's not impossible to do that with zsh, I've done myself, but it's a lot more work and I still don't have colours in my option completion.
Just use fish. Everything works out of the box and it even has the ability to configure everything in a browser like a gui. No annoying plugin systems required.
I like the Xonsh shell.
It seems like an interesting shell, I haven't ever tested it though
Can you make a video on what you like about zsh and which plugins you like?
I can certainly look into it
My prompt on zsh would work just as well on bash assuming your terminal uses a nerd font. It's just in my config file, and includes dynamic information like if you're in a Git repo it'll have info about the current status, nicely coloured, etc.
I've learn all of this the hard way
Honestly fish is just a better interactive shell. What’s there to argue about? I do look forward to more modern and thought out syntax in shells, there’s great potential still. I also think using python REPL as your shell is not actually that bad, since it’s so intuitive instead of bash where I still look up the syntax for checking a condition. But for scripts there’s unfortunately nothing better than posix shell (except maybe bash or python).
on nights of the full moon, this dude turns into a were-rabbit
ill just stick with bash
great video bro
I dis agree. It depends upon what you value. Let's say you are someone who wants to teach fish or zsh, it is good to have knowledge of bash. But if it is just to experience linux, bash will not be in my priority list. It is for simple reason that bash would become csh very soon. Similarly people usually argue using urxvt instead of alacrity, again waste of time. Even in programming some people tell to learn C before Python. No! Always start easy and simple that gets most of the work done and learn incrementally as you need more. I can understand 'oh-my-zsh' is a bad thing, but that does not make fish or zsh inherently bad. But bash is definitely not an alternative. Your advise rather should be to try to configure zsh on their own while using oh-my-zsh.
I said bash because bash is generally the default shell, but if you're on BSD then that's not the case. It's not that Bash is more difficult to use necessarily, but the configuration process is generally assumed to be manual so it requires you to actually think about what you're doing.
Learn C as soon as possible and Python as soon as it’s necessary. C is a great language and can totally be used as a first language and Python sucks.
zsh is now the default shell for Macbooks
I did hear about that happening
Soon it will happen even in Linux
@@SenthilBabuji some distros probably, but I can't see most doing it
@@BrodieRobertson I don't see any reason why zsh should not be default shell. Even bash was not default shell for a long time. But it is now the default shell in almost all distro. Bash is for sure inferior than zsh.
Now, imagine all the MacOS coomers trying to search for a Zsh theme instead of a prompt
Why even bother with fish or zsh in the first place?
Because they're cool
ive been using bash for a while and wanted to try a new shell
Thanks for the thoughts. Is there a way to get some better auto-completion features on bash to make it begin to compete with oh-my-zsh on that? One thing I find annoying is the printing to the screen of options after hitting tab just once, which repeats on repeated hitting of tab. I'd like to set it up to complete to the best of its ability on the first hit, without printing if it can't do anything, then print on the second hit, and not print again after subsequent hits
What?! You can't compare bash to omz. Bash is a shell and omz is a useless bloated plugin manager. Seems you didn't get the point of the video. And the fact that zsh can do things that bash can't is why so many people use it. Why would it exist if you could do all of that in bash?
I'm using ZSH because the keybindings are more customizable. Also I prefer it from programming perspective. Also I like the documentation of ZSH. It's not complete for my taste, but there is a lot of info.
As for oh-my-zsh, I always tried to avoid it because I have read somewhere several years ago that it's bad and should be viewed as deprecated.
And about plugins / aliases, there are none in normal ZSH. You write them by yourself. Of course there are some useful plugins (or modules, as they are more commonly called), like the regex (zsh/pcre), but for me it doesn't do anything bad. It only extends the scripting language.
For hard approach, I would recommend dash. It doesn't even have history, but for me completion is not bad.
Actually I don't know if I should be new to Linux or not. I once had a job interview and they asked about the difference between deb and rpm. I said I don't know. So that means I should be considered a newbie. On the other hand I see no need to stay with bash any longer. I like the simplicity of dash and the features of ZSH, but I don't really like bash for scripting.
> I once had a job interview and they asked about the difference between deb and rpm. I said I don't know.
because ricing arch desktop is way more fundamental, indeed.
> On the other hand I see no need to stay with bash any longer.
this confirmed that our simpleprogrammingcodesclown is indeed a newbie.
> I don't really like bash for scripting
we devops would say otherwise, kiddo.
have to deal with different machines every day, portability & generic .sh script structure is critically important compared to your fancy rainbow shell :)
@@NickDyers What is important to you (the 'devops' poser) is not important for most people.
4:21 it's like M$ persistently calling for example HTTP methods "verbs" etc... I did some consulting for a company that was using almost exclusively M$ tech stack and we had some communication issues at the beginning because of M$ renaming everything ;-]
i use bash as super user
the points you make in this video apply so entirely to rofi too. A great tool, but only after I'd installed an entire package to "theme" it and add plugins, I discover that all such features are already available in plain rofi if one reads the docs.
Hey ho... the world of Linux! :)
have been using zsh as default shell for ages (macos has zsh as a default shell). never used ohmyzsh.
last time i needed a shell script, and i was like, it’s better to write a bash script cause it’s more standard. but then i ran into a weird bug of bash eating newlines from a heredoc variable declared with the read command, and i didn’t know where i was wrong. changed shebang to zsh and it ran perfectly. fuck bash.
7:10 As a new user... yea you need to suffer a bit if you really want to hammer the knowledge in.
3:49 that and the obfuscation thing u mentioned. these things are sooo common in the "popular" software. the unnecessary dumbing down of things, or unnecessarily inventing new fancier names for existing things feels fishy to me.
I am all in for proper technical names
Great point! Fish shell is kinda of scandal especially for the Unix purists that want to uplift standards. Don’t use that! To your point: master bash and then, evolve into ZSH.
It annoys me beyond reason that some people think bash is an integral part to Linux and write hardcoded dependencies on it cuz of their bashismic scripts.
Just write portable scripts. It's not that hard.
Also, the fish documentation is sparse. When you start tinkering with it a lil, you run out of solutions for common problems quick.
That was my experience with fish, a few years ago. I have not revisited fish since.
Here I am using ash on Alpine. Bash is considered bloat lol
There is framework for bash, it's called bashit.
Oh course there is
Hey Brodie!
Have you thought of giving Linux+?
I have no idea what that is
@@BrodieRobertson It's an IT certification exam by Comptia like CCNA and CCNP.
It questions your basic Linux Sys Admin knowledge and efficiency.
Would you ever give it?
I'm barely a web developer at this point lol.
I lump system administration into the same category as network administration, I have a lot of respect for the people who do it but it's not something I want a part of.
just remembered this video all of a sudden, and... wait, bash? wasnt there something more pure posixy we were supposed to remain true to first for * years?
I use Bash as an example because it's a defacto standard at this point, my argument was learn how to work with a shell first and then use one of the more powerful options if you feel you need to. A lot of people skip all the way to ZSH and then start asking questions which you'd answer yourself if you just learnt how a shell works.
@@BrodieRobertson yeah, i just remember being nagged at about "bashisms" back in the day. ... tbh, it's never really stung me. (and further, i'm kinda finding fish's comforts similarly un-sting-y... and feeling less n less guilty about that, n more n more regretting not fish'ing sooner.).
Barely any likes on this one, i wonder why.
Like almost everything else the best shell (or editor, or IDE, or OS, or PL) is the one that you know backwards and forwards and are really good at using. The rate limiting factor isn't going to be the technology itself it's going to be your familiarity and your proficiency with it. So we can have these debates until the heat death of the universe and each person is going to argue in favor of that thing that they use every day. Find a tool that you like, learn it, get good at it, customize, tweak it and get your work done with it but there's no real use in trying to convince others that they should do it your way. Because they have done the same thing and ain't looking to change - just like you.
I came here to listen to rant about fish and Zed-sh , but Brodie is talking about Zee-sh and I don't what that is !!
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.
.
.
lol!!
Someone the other day told me it should be called zshell
@@BrodieRobertson 😂. Bro please do something about tmux and it's plugins. I would want to learn that.
But how will I have my precious agnoster prompt!?!?! (Yes, I'm kidding. Please put the pitchforks away.)
I've never heard of that one
@@BrodieRobertson It's my favourite prompt. I like the style and the functionality it adds, but another big part of it is that there's a similar status bar for vim/neovim so my environment feels very coherent.
github.com/agnoster/agnoster-zsh-theme
github.com/vim-airline/vim-airline
I just found some tmux status lines that are also in the same theme/style...though all the ones I've found just now are pretty old. I'll have to go try them and see what happens and if they need any fixing. (Eventually. I'm in the middle of migrating from Windows and MacOS to Linux being my primary OS, so with multiple file systems, lots of data, and being busy with lots of other stuff as well, I'm in a sort of migration hell at the moment. XD)
oh my zsh is good but it does hide a lot of things that are essential to understand mechanics of a shell, lucky me that I only found out about Zsh after 2-3 months of bash. Also, once you know how to customize Zsh you wont be using the oh my zsh but it does make managing plugins and "themes" a lot easier.
What do you think about loksh?
Haven't even heard of that one before.
@@BrodieRobertson loksh is another ksh, I think it’s derived from pdksh.
This whole video sounds like Linux elitism to me. Just use whatever suits your needs. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter.
At the end of the day use what you want but there is some educational value to be had using a tool that holds you hand less
nice video bro
amazing video
this should be good.
I hope so
15 years with bash will have been long enough. i'll stick with fish now. ;D
Yeah I think that should be enough experience lol
bash is so nasty. Theres no syntax highlighting ffs
This guy always comes across so ranty. Sure he means well though.
Did you expect anything different from a rant video?
@@BrodieRobertson Oh this is a rant video? In that case... a job well done!
@@axMf3qTI I do get your point though, I might come across more ranty than I would hope in some videos
@@BrodieRobertson It's cool though I still watch your videos. This time the video was playing in the background and I couldn't concentrate on something that needed my attention. So when I finally found the tab to turn the volume off or quit the video I was quite a bit annoyed… And I agree ... ppl should bash before they fish.
I would rather use python rather than the fish shell..lol
Xonsh
@@BrodieRobertson :D I switched to zsh after 3 years of bash and I tried oh my zsh and I was so annoyed to see so many folders and plugins lol. I used to call it oh my gosh too many folders. I currently use zsh but with few Plugins like web search. Oh my zsh is not necessary at all to use zsh as you mentioned.
Nailed it...
Dis isssss shitt
Sooo issss yourrrr spellllll