VICTIM: The hidden costs of over-identifying with our trauma.
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- We can experience powerful feelings of empathy for those who are victims of trauma in all its heartbreaking dimensions. It is difficult even to consider a shadow side to this already dark aspect of human experience. Nevertheless, it is important also to consider the difference between lived experiences of victimization and meaning-making narratives that not only can become calcified but self-reinforcing. If entrenched, narratives of victimization can become part of one’s identity and suppress life energy. We differentiate the emotions involved in suffering, mourning, and acceptance from more reified states of powerlessness. They describe how the presence of wisely witnessing others can help with healing, empowerment, and finding the path ahead to a more liberated sense of self.
HERE'S THE DREAM WE ANALYZE:
"I am being held in a prison against my will, and I am sharing a cell with a male colleague from work. The cell is very cold and silent. The whole place feels very sterile. When I look out of the window, I realize we are imprisoned on the moon. My male colleague is talking to me with an intensity in his expression. He is demanding a lot of my attention, and he says he wants me and needs me and that he has been having dreams about me- but I am trying to focus on getting out of the cell. He says it’s too late, and we are going to be executed in the most cosmic way- by being ejected into a black hole together."
REFERENCES:
Eye Movement Desensitization Movement (EMDR). en.wikipedia.o...
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"How it's alive in you is much more important than what happened to you." 👌
Absolutely!
Hi, I wanted to let you guys know that I appreciate the hard work that is put into these videos. I started listening to your videos about a month ago to keep myself entertained during house chores and I never expected to have my preexisting journaling practice become so enriched as a result. Listening to these videos keeps me from ruminating on unproductive thoughts whilst completing menial tasks and they also help me keep hope and an excitement for life alive :) thanks so much guys and keep it up !
being ruthlessly honest with finding out what the actual wound was really about I think is crucial in being able to own your part in the creation of the circumstances...regardless of whatever power or sense of disempowerment you had... what actually hurt you and victimised you.... for instance... as I child I was poorly nourished. As I entered puberty I made some friends who I would go to their place. They always had biscuits and cakes and soft drink..and a mother who cooked nice food. I never held back when food was offered. I heard them talking about me one day and one of the girls said that I was a 'scunge'. For some reason I thought they would understand my 'greed'. I have had a terrible time dealing with this wound , my self image etc throughout my life. However recently I was able to truly look at my behaviour and give people a reason for them to think of me that way, instead of being hurt that they did see me that way. Not sure if this means anything to anyone, but understanding that also there are so many things that will never be resolved, a lot of the pain gets swallowed in the brutality of the honesty of owning your part and allowing people their own human journey and perceptions.
Its difficult ... what u saying as a child and other kids we do what we do... prime survival instinct... we learn as we grow... the older we get mor ewe understand. .. it does go to our adulthood... i see my fathers behaviour but should i blame him... he had though time and i dis best i could...myself amd leartn myself too. And who cares its life .u hurtnoone is most important in stead of hanging around this ... if u want correct it if not no matter. Thats where forgivness comes in❤
Really appreciate how you carefully explore the subtleties of the Victim archetype. So many pitfalls on the path to healing the wounds of trauma. It's also very tricky when whole groups are systemically victimized without respite. It seems that when working with systemic victimization, the healing is much more difficult and I sense that other issues of how to cope with that reality must be addressed.
I wonder if you are familiar with the Inuit myth of Sedna,who I see as representing the victim archetype. Her father chops off her fingers and throws them along with his daughter into the sea. Her fingers then transform into different sea creatures, and Sedna becomes a goddess of chaos and destruction.
Thank you, Jeannie. It is a timely and tender topic. Lisa has made good use of the Sedna myth in other episodes. It certainly applies to this topic as well. You may also be interested in Don Kalsched's book 'Trauma and the Soul' - his concept of malignant innocence is relevant to this topic.
13:34 Jung quote about neurosis and running away from life (infancy)
38:36 Joseph discussing the splitting within the psyche after abuse; internalized perpetrator can take over internalized innocent child/victim and take over and press the person into perpetrating behavior themselves
As Lisa has often noted--quoting someone, I don't remember whom--neurotics tend to assume too much responsibility while those with character disorders don't assume enough. Another way of saying it, far from wallowing in victimhood, neurotics often attack themselves and don't even realize they weren't at fault (for example, in their childhoods). For people in that situation, understanding that they were victimized is essential to recovery. Finally they are able to take their own side and are set free.
Incredible description of the alchemical process. How about an entire episode on alchemy?
I've been thinking child-hero archetype (as Baby Herculer to Hero Hercules) and perhaps there is hero-side hidden in child-like victimhood. hero which is often missed because we are so enamored with hero-archetype.
This makes us blind to the idea that Hero is the one who enforces the victimhood. Interesting example of this might be socalled SJW-movement which often is critizied of basing on victimhood... while it does that with unsheathed sword, which seems heroic way to me. So there seems to be duality which gets missed: your child if you follow path i don't like and your hero if you follow path which i happen to like, both being sides of same coin.
This involves alchemy of moist sadness crystalizing into pilar of white salt, it gets dry and dogmatic. Tears of victim drying into arrows of hero. Hero still in grips of his victimhood. Perhaps hero is one who can't let go of his victimhood-status as without it he would not be hero anymore, no more dragons to fight? Pure white should turn into rotting yellow, but hero can't let that happen without dying. Hero-Hercules had to die to become constellation.
I've noticed myself that this is the way i maintain my victimhood, by attacking it's cause in hero-like manner, hiding the child behind my back. Only after i can let go of the hero i can let the issue to sooth out.
James Hillman's Myth of Family seems to follow those lines, but i don't think he pointed at this issue that hero needs victimhood as fuel, thou he seemed to sort of circle around it.
Sorry for long post, it's just that i've wondered this as well these past days.
What an insightful response! You are diving deep and finding gold! Thank you for sharing this.
I have a question tho, in the dream or having that kind of interaction with this coworker, could that not also be, seeing something in that person that they wished for in their own partnership or even in ourselves and that it has little to do with being attracted to this person but seeing something you wish for in your own relationship and instead of bringing that into the present relationship is starting to develop feeling for someone which is there for us and listens and has at least on that level that level shared commonalities but what I also thought about is the fear of loosing someone, you have this relationship and they are a good partner and you don't want to hurt them by realizing even for yourself that maybe that relationship has stooled, maybe also showed that the one you have now, it's not as you would want it to be? and maybe by feeling something for someone else we now have an excuse or a reason to step out of that relationship while we where only look for a concrete reason to why it is not working anymore instead of just admitting to ourselves that we are just not happy the way it is anymore. Sometimes we see things in others that we find attractive and instead of brining that into our own life or suggesting those things to our current partners to even see how they would feel about being more open about talking about certain things and being not having that depth with our partner we wish for, we find it in someone else. Is it okay to have people we share certain things with and some we do not but also if I where someones partner and I'd see them exchange much deeper conversations with someone else rather then with me, I for one would strongly question how strong our own connection is, if someone dose not feel safe enough to express certain feelings to me and maybe I would have to look at why and if I maybe do react a certain way when someone share something important with me, maybe they have tried a few time and my response to that did not appeal to them and they rather share those things with someone else so it is to me to take a look at how do I react and feel about someone sharing intimate thoughts and feeling with me even if those feeling are about me and it dose hurt to hear certain things, I rather have that honesty and work throw it, dose not mean that it dose not hurts to hear from your own partner that there is something they see that they do not enjoy but if we want to make it work it is worth a try, it can very much happen that for some reason someone dose not feel safe sharing very intimate things with us because of the way we would react to them of which we might not even be quite aware of. My point is, just because we share some things in common with others it dose not instantly mean that we should pursue a relationship with those people but also it is not a shame for feeling an attraction to someone and it is very human and I do believe it is healthy to tell that person but sometime we avoid that because it could potentially ruin what is there and we want to keep that fantasy or idealization alive because of the potential rejection we will have to encounter and then the distancing of said persons, because to them maybe it was never bout a romantic interest but rather a intimate friendship. Maybe it is pretty much what you people laid out but expressed in a different way, I'm not familiar with big words it is not my language.
Amazing conversation, I love what you are doing, I am very thankful!
An idea for a future podcast could be individuation as a couple! Companionship
The three of you deserve The Nobel Peace Prize for this episode alone. Cheers.
Wonderfully and thoughtfully expressed and articulated.
You guys are the best! Thank you for making these conversations available.
Have gone over this videos a few times now, always the most important thing to remember about therapy of any kind is what we want at the end. The is no perfect victim, and no perfect aggressor, good to humanise the actors in these stories so that they are not so powerful. Very useful discussion. Wish I had heard it a long time ago, but I guess I am only now really ready to receive it. Thanks I know it's four years later, but thank you
Great conversation, thanks for the observation and inspiration to grow.
30:39
Yes Joseph... I just got struck by the whole purpose of the theory of archetypes right there.
Truly loosened and freed from your subjectivity by viewing the objectivity of your subjectivity.
Your subjectivity is objective but the contents of your subjectivity is not.
(Or: the contents are objective, but maybe not in your particular life. The contents are not descriptive of the circumstances/objective reality)
Mind=blown, got struck by lightning, thank you.
You truly get freed from objective reality/circumstances, in a sense,
-when you see the objectivity of the psyche.
-when your subjectivity get’s crushed with it’s claim on objective knowledge.
Very useful for me......
Life-Changing once you 'Witness within the Dream' Thank You All so much...I witnessed and now am believing & slowly coming to understand my Inner world rather than blaming the Outer experience..
This entire episode is magic including the dream analysis!
14:20 self reinforcing victimhood, Jung quote
I have listened to this podcast twice. I wanted to understand my friends and family members who are victims. I started to see myself and the times I have been the victim and how I find was to solidify my victimhood.this wasn’t what I was signing up for. I am trying to make my unconscious, conscious. So I cannot say it is my fate . I will listen again and take notes. I will be working on this. Hey, this podcast has homework!
Understood, and BTW, have personally found dreamwork very helpful for the process of "making the unconscious, conscious."
Perfect time for me to come across this particular episode. Couldn't be more perfect. Incredibly enlightening and empowering! Thank you so much 💜
5:00
8min 30 = summary.
Thanks for your wise conversations.
Thank you Amy ~ Joseph
Hypochondiacal!!! Hystrionic who won't morn and move on. Exactly a 2cd gain. An entitlement and specialness of the victim. Do they want to resolve the trauma or stay in it.