Did Gay Christians Exist in the Early Church?
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
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@masonmennenga @TheCounselofTrent
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The next time I hear that stupid idea that "Bob and Larry are gay" I cannot be held responsible for what I say.
i forgot jokes aren’t allowed on youtube anymore
I’m gonna make my bob and Larry toys I’ve had since I was a kid do things to each other because of you
@@masonmennenga That is itself a joke dude
@@masonmennenga It's not funny.
@@joelofjudah9144 people don’t follow me because of my looks joe
"Those who cannot conceive Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend." C.S. Lewis
I struggled with my Christian desires when I was younger and have finally decided that I can’t help being Christian.
What ?
Nope! You CHOSE to be Christian, just like a gay person CHOOSES to be gay or a sinner CHOOSES to eat shrimp or wear jeans! It's in the Bible that your going to hell if you do those things.
So... when did you first suspect you might be Christian?
Did you ever act out any impulses, like helping an old lady with her shopping, or stopping a bullying at school?
How do you feel about those desires now?
😄😆
@@loreman7267good expansion of the joke
@@loreman7267see? Being christian isn’t a choice or a lifestyle, bigots! It’s predestined!
What veggies tales even have to do with this nonsense bro 😭
2 men being in close proximity must mean that they are having intercourse to them apparently
Clearly it’s the cucumber’s fault 😂
I loath this modern reduction of intimacy to necessarily s*xual. As if two people can't be close without bumping uglies.
What does s*xual mean. Is that some new weird LIBERAL SLANG
That is what a lot of it comes down to in these discussions, at least on the popular level. "Look these guys were very close and meant a lot to each other, they must've been gay like me!"
It's honestly kinda sad if you think about it, that so many only have the framework that mutual importance between two people must be fundamentally sexual in nature.
@@Joshua4231 their was no evidence alexander the great was bisexual either the idea came from ONE count them 1 historian who claimed hot takes like " hercules scabard pointing down at this man he defeated is a simulation of masculine assault , thus this pottery is gay"
not joking that was an actual quote he said a mans scabbard pointing at the defeated mans bum was a sign of masculine assault and gay dominance.
cant make up what modern" scholars" come up with.
patroklos was called his lover but the term had a much different connotation
much like the sacred band of thebes wasnt gay.
😂 bumping uglies! That’s a new one!
@@Crossing-Blades thats older than i am.
Two guys who are good friends??? NO!!!!NO!!! THEY'RE GAY!!!!! what is wrong with people!!!!
you should watch the entire video to know what my argument is :)
It’s funny because what you just said, but in reverse, is what happened for a very long time in human history. “Gay? Nononononono, they were clearly just very good friends”
@@nickvanhoesen5065 maybe! :)
@@nickvanhoesen5065 maybe but not in every possible instance!!!
@@masonmennenga I did my good sir I did!!!
Paul literally wrote to the church in corinth , for their men to have their hair cut , since having long hair in Roman Greece was associated with homosexuality . Early christians literally disassociated themselves with any form homosexual icons or other forms of sinful practices .
Actually, it likely had more to do with masculinity and femininity. Sex was an act performed by the top to the bottom, no matter who the bottom was, female or male, they were considered feminine/submissive. Long hair was seen as a womanly trait, and therefore part of the submissive side. A dominant man wouldn't want to give up dominance, therefore, they would eschew long hair.
@@velocibadgery yeah it was also since short hair , was seen as a more masculine trait
Jesus had long hair. Does that mean he was gay in Paul's eyes?
@Empty_Robot 1. Jewish culture was different from Corinthian culture, different culture different rules. 2. We have no idea if Jesus's hair was long, if he was bald or really anything about his hair other than what would be typical for a Jewish man of the time.
@@Empty_Robot one, we don't know how long his hair was, two, Paul didn't know what being gay was.
Glad to see Catholics and Protestants unify in debunking blasphemers
One quote I’ve really appreciated from “Is God anti-gay” is: “The best antidote to the desire for unhealthy same-sex intimacy is to find healthy forms of same-sex intimacy”.
To claim there’s a sexual element in a close same-sex friendship, is really to do that relationship a disservice.
Modernity gaslighting at its most pathetic.
Well I mean homosexuality and trans people have been well documented throughout most of human history. The Romans and greeks loved gay sex and crossdressing.
@@vividfiber6668Where they christians?
@@somedude8964Were there probably Christians that struggled with the sin? Most likely. However they weren’t people who hypocritically said they were a Christian while living that lifestyle with no sense of struggle or repentance.
@@KingNazarudude is speaking truth
@@KingNazaru dude is cooking
They're so desperate to justify themselves
Titus 1:16
- They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
Perfectly put.
I'm still waiting for proof of your god. Until then, anything from that black book is fan fiction.
Timothy 2:12
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.”
@@SintiSnake misogyny 101 from the black book itself.
@@latinzane what do you expect from the most harmful cult in history?
I hoped someone was going to point out 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, where it shows there were early Christians who struggled with same-sex interests.
“The first word is malakoi, which literally means “soft” and is translated in the NRSV as “male prostitutes.” (Miner & Connoley, pg. 18) In terms of morality, during the first century, malakos referred to attributes such as laziness, degeneracy, decadence or lack of courage. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 17, citing Martin, Arsenokoites and Malakos, pg. 124). In the patriarchal culture at that time, being “soft like a woman” was a common insult. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 17) First- century Romans believed that any man who was more interested in pleasure than in duty, was woman-like. So Paul may have been referring to men who were weak or effeminate, such as those unfit for military service. In fact, the King James Version translates the word malakoi as “effeminate.”
Malakoi was also sometimes used to refer to male prostitutes, particularly young boys who were the passive partners in sexual relationships with men. (Dwyer, pg. 63) It was common at that time for married heterosexual men to keep a boy, often one who had been captured and castrated, for sexual pleasure. (Dwyer, pg. 63) So Paul may have been referring specifically to male prostitutes rather than soft men in general (Miner & Connoley, pg. 18), and this would certainly be appropriate on a list of sins. Of course, this sort of abuse would be abhorrent and intolerable to modern Christians, but it does not refer to consensual relationships between same-sex couples.
The second Greek word used here is “arsenokoites,” translated in the NRSV by the ambiguous term “sodomites.” Arsenokoites is a composite of two Greek words, arseno, meaning “male,” and koites, meaning “bed,” with the connotation of sexual intercourse. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 18, Helminiak, pg. 109) But when these two parts of the word are put together, the meaning is unclear. It may refer specifically to a man who has sex with another man, or it may be referring to a man who has sex with anyone, outside of marriage, including possibly a woman. Think, for example, of the English word “understand.” It is composed of two words, “under” and “stand,” but its meaning does not relate either to the act of standing, or to being under something. (Rogers, pg. 70)
One way to learn a word’s definition is to analyze it in other contexts. However, the word arsenokoites is extremely rare, appearing in only one other place in the Bible, I Timothy, which will be discussed below. The Greek word, arsenokoites, is not found anywhere else in Greek literature prior to the first century, when these passages of scripture were written. It appeared in only a few writings after that, most of which were derived from the vice list which appears in I Corinthians, without any context to shed light on its meaning. (Miner & Connoley, pgs. 18-20; Brownson, pg. 42)
There are, however, a few stories in non-Biblical Greek literature that suggest the word arsenokoites refers to instances where one male uses his superior power or position to take sexual advantage of another. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 20) Many scholars therefore conclude that the term refers to forcible male-on-male sex, or to sexual exploitation involving prostitution. (Miner & Connoley, pgs. 20-21; Helminiak, pgs. 109-110; Rogers, pgs. 70-71, citing Martin, Arsenokoites and Malakos, pg. 121) In fact, several scholars emphasize the link between these two terms (malakos and arsenokoites) and the common Greek practice of pederasty, which is the sexual use of younger boys (possibly the word malakos) by older men (possibly the word arsenokoites). (Helminiak, pg. 110) In this context, these words are certainly appropriate on a list of sinful vices.” elcvienna.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Booklet-about-Homosexuality-and-the-Bible-Sept.-2016.pdf.
@@MrMortal_Rathe miracle of reinterpretation 🌈
@@jncon8013 The miracle of critically evaluating what an author of a text likely said or didn’t say within that text.
You know it only mentions that homosexual is a sin right?
@@Itsdasummer32 Read my reply.
No way he said that about Bob and Larry. 😂
first mason mennenga video?
IP and trent horn on the same live stream. This is a greater crossover than Infinity War.
I completely agree bro
Out of everything he chose bob and larry
It's the same energy as "A war movie where a soldier holds his best friend in his arms, crying because his best friend is dying and he's powerless to save him" and they say "Oh! They are totally gay lovers!"
Do these people not have friends? They can't conceive of a relationship between two people that isn't sexual? C.S. Lewis has a great quote here.
"Those who cannot conceive Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend."
The only concept of friends they have are those they have casual sex with
The early Christians were very gay. But back then it meant happy.
A personal note, this is a desire that I have struggled with, but I understand what scripture says. I wish to obey my Lord more than what these sinful desires are.
you have my total respect brother! Trust the Lord!
Paul puts it clearly in Romans 8 that our current suffering are nothing compared to the glory we are yet to see, experience and live in forever, continue walking by the Spirit sibling in Christ, continue putting to death the desires of the flesh with much joy as Christ has enabled us by dying on the Cross in our place, bless you.
I hope you realise soon that you’re perfect just the way you are. Please don’t listen to these people who try to tell you otherwise. You should love who you love and not let others judge you for it❤️
@malgos6532 In regards to this, I do understand where you are coming from, but we have to ask the question of what love is. In regards to giving of one's own self in regards to time, money, and simple companionship, that is a good love. Now, when it comes to sexual desire, we have to ask, to what end is this desire supposed to produce? Of course, people who love each other have sex with one another, but good close bonds of friendships; that is something that does not happen often, especially with men who have no romantic interests with one another. If a man mourns his close friends death, does it mean that he loved him? Of course. But it was a different kind of love. Our culture has put too much emphasis on erotic love and not enough on brotherly or agape love. The desires that I have within myself I have come to peace with, but what I feel sexualy is not my ultimate identity. My identity is in Christ.
I don't hate myself, nor do I feel torn over these desires. As I mentioned before, I understand that these desires are there, but I choose not to act upon them. I would say having desire is not sinful in and of itself, rather feeding into that desire is what becomes sinful.
"14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."
James 1:14-15
I do appreciate the concern, but I am quite content with what I feel, but I have a greater desire to follow my savior.
@@someoneforhim Praise the Lord! Thank you for your encouraging testimony. Keep fighting the good fight, brother.
If they see two guys having lunch together they assume they're gay. They do the same with animals so, while completely wrong, it's not surprising. They have to justify their lifestyle somehow.
Researchers have recorded fairly normalized homosexual behaviour in more than 1500 species.
@@Hat_With_A_Hat_On - Animals also commit public nudity, inc*st, r*pe, cannibalism, polygamy, etc. Does that make it right?
Using animals as a reference point for morality will lead you to act like an animal.
@@hitreset1203It just makes it natural and normal. Humans are weird and have this thing they invented called morality.
Honestly, when someone says that a theory is disregarded by scholars is more of a reason for me to look into it. Scholars whos opinions are revered are normally the ones with a controlled narative.
Two people of the same sex can be best friends without it being or involving sexual.
Why is this concept so hard to understand?
Not Bob and Larry 😭😂
Nobody before the 20th century would have turned their sexual proclivities into an identity.
I love how not only you give evidence that refute thief arguments but also the sources of their arguments
"You leave my boys Bob and Larry out of this, they didn't do anything to you!"
Gay people really out themselves saying any close male friendship was a gay couple.
So done with this evil generation
There's always been people who struggled with sin. But the church has never accepted sin. Before someone makes a dumb comment that Paul "didn't actually condemn homosexuals", yes he did. Simply logical analysis and historical/cultural context of 1 Corinthians 6:9 make it clear Paul condemns homosexuality. Throughout the passage, he condemns sin in related pairs, saying both parties in two party sins are guilty. Condemning both the harlots and the adulterer as equally guilty of sexual immorality. Given this, let's analyze the verse's two keywords. Arsenokoitai and Malakoi. One is made up, so the definition is reliant upon the known word. Paul is the first recorded use of the word Arsenokoitai, which makes it likely he coined this word to describe the sin in question. Let's analyze Malakoi. Malakoi is literally "soft man". However, in historical and even modern Greek context, the word and its derivatives have been known to mean men who are sexually perverse. In documents from antiquity, we almost always see the word in reference to men who are receivers. Homosexual bottoms. Given this, we can assume based on the context of the passage and the usage of pairing two party sins with the equal opposite party, that Arsenokoitai, literally Ass-Man, is the homosexual top. This makes perfect sense, as in each example of sexual immorality, Paul is questioning contemporary morality. Whereas it was wring for a woman to whore about but not a man to be an adulterer, Paul condemns both. Similarly, while it was acceptable to be a homosexual top, it was not so to be the bottom, which was seen as shameful. Paul, however, like earlier in the passage, contradicts this common knowledge, instead saying both parties are equally full of shame and sin.
“The first word is malakoi, which literally means “soft” and is translated in the NRSV as “male prostitutes.” (Miner & Connoley, pg. 18) In terms of morality, during the first century, malakos referred to attributes such as laziness, degeneracy, decadence or lack of courage. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 17, citing Martin, Arsenokoites and Malakos, pg. 124). In the patriarchal culture at that time, being “soft like a woman” was a common insult. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 17) First- century Romans believed that any man who was more interested in pleasure than in duty, was woman-like. So Paul may have been referring to men who were weak or effeminate, such as those unfit for military service. In fact, the King James Version translates the word malakoi as “effeminate.”
Malakoi was also sometimes used to refer to male prostitutes, particularly young boys who were the passive partners in sexual relationships with men. (Dwyer, pg. 63) It was common at that time for married heterosexual men to keep a boy, often one who had been captured and castrated, for sexual pleasure. (Dwyer, pg. 63) So Paul may have been referring specifically to male prostitutes rather than soft men in general (Miner & Connoley, pg. 18), and this would certainly be appropriate on a list of sins. Of course, this sort of abuse would be abhorrent and intolerable to modern Christians, but it does not refer to consensual relationships between same-sex couples.
The second Greek word used here is “arsenokoites,” translated in the NRSV by the ambiguous term “sodomites.” Arsenokoites is a composite of two Greek words, arseno, meaning “male,” and koites, meaning “bed,” with the connotation of sexual intercourse. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 18, Helminiak, pg. 109) But when these two parts of the word are put together, the meaning is unclear. It may refer specifically to a man who has sex with another man, or it may be referring to a man who has sex with anyone, outside of marriage, including possibly a woman. Think, for example, of the English word “understand.” It is composed of two words, “under” and “stand,” but its meaning does not relate either to the act of standing, or to being under something. (Rogers, pg. 70)
One way to learn a word’s definition is to analyze it in other contexts. However, the word arsenokoites is extremely rare, appearing in only one other place in the Bible, I Timothy, which will be discussed below. The Greek word, arsenokoites, is not found anywhere else in Greek literature prior to the first century, when these passages of scripture were written. It appeared in only a few writings after that, most of which were derived from the vice list which appears in I Corinthians, without any context to shed light on its meaning. (Miner & Connoley, pgs. 18-20; Brownson, pg. 42)
There are, however, a few stories in non-Biblical Greek literature that suggest the word arsenokoites refers to instances where one male uses his superior power or position to take sexual advantage of another. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 20) Many scholars therefore conclude that the term refers to forcible male-on-male sex, or to sexual exploitation involving prostitution. (Miner & Connoley, pgs. 20-21; Helminiak, pgs. 109-110; Rogers, pgs. 70-71, citing Martin, Arsenokoites and Malakos, pg. 121) In fact, several scholars emphasize the link between these two terms (malakos and arsenokoites) and the common Greek practice of pederasty, which is the sexual use of younger boys (possibly the word malakos) by older men (possibly the word arsenokoites). (Helminiak, pg. 110) In this context, these words are certainly appropriate on a list of sinful vices. In short, no one is really sure what the words malakos and arsenokoites mean in this I Corinthians passage. The most that can be said, with any certainty, is that the passage appears to condemn sexual abuse and exploitation (Helminiak, pg. 113), a position with which all modern Christians should readily agree.” elcvienna.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Booklet-about-Homosexuality-and-the-Bible-Sept.-2016.pdf.
@@MrMortal_RaYou don’t seem to be getting a lot of replies. I wonder why?
Tldr
Jesus was trans.
@@turkleton4783 I wonder why apart from me, you won’t get any replies back to this comment either. Oh well.
@MrMortal_Ra Because research takes time. Here I am. Also, don't be so impressed. Bro copied and pasted a whole other dudes essay. So I checked out each of the authors cited in this passage and they have some issues as sources to say the least.
Two of my favorite Christian apologists working together. But wait. Two Christian men doing something together. I think you guys have something to tell your wives...
Wow... so 2 men enjoying close Christian fellowship makes them homosexuals? I suppose you also believe that a man and a woman can't also be bffs without sleeping with each other? Makes sense. Not everything is about sex. In fact, most things are actually NOT about sex. This became evident to me once I left high school and started interacting with the real world as adults do.
The same-sex union that existed in the middle ages is called Adelphopoiiesis and it was a spiritual union making 2 men, for example, united like brothers. Thus kind of union was not between 2 gay men
I'm so happy you're having Trent Horn on he's a very smart Christian Catholic😊
You and Trent working together!? Sign me up!
Titus 1:15 comes to mind.
To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
Saying that LGBTQI Christian’s didn’t exist (simply because that’s a term that didn’t exist) is disingenuous & you know it. It’s like saying toilets didn’t exist because flushing hadn’t been invented. Or shops didn’t exist because Tesco hadn’t been invented.
The real answer is that they don't exist because you cannot be both.
Again projecting modern terms and identities to people of the past who would have no idea what you're talking about. We can learn from the past but we can't speak for the people of the time period because the people were different at the time.
This reminds me of when I looked up the Christian practice of "enbrotherment" in which two men essentially adopt one another as brothers, and I came across articles claiming they were basically marriages. I was baffled. What part of "en *brother* ment" do these people not understand?
keep that cucumbers and tomatoes name out of your mouth!
😂😂😂
@@masonmennenga oh my goodness it’s the dude from the video 😱😱😱
@@Prowl_32 OMG HE ACTUALLY EXISTS 😂
@@Prowl_32 prowl why are you here
A 1000 yrs from now, someone somewhere is going to write a book on the obvious gay relationship between Frodo and Sam in LOTR and say JRR Tolkien was advocating gay love, despite his Catholic beliefs
Why must contemporary people insist upon looking backwards with three supremely modern eyes and INSIST only they can see situations that just weren't seen then as now?
The modern LGBTQIA+ crowd always see everything as about them and their sexuality.
Exactly. The extremists are narcissists who lack the empathy to see things from other's perspectives, hence why they only write self-serving fanfictions which are basically their own power fantasies broadcasted to the world.
Exited to watch a collab with you and Trent horn, gonna be awesome
End Wokeness
Wokeness is a made up term. Describe what exactly wokeness is to the class please
@@vividfiber6668All words are made up terms.
Define Woke.
@@vividfiber6668 Wokeness is the belief that (1) all of society is currently and intentionally designed to oppress or stigmatize certain groups (2) any gap in performance, success, or relevance between groups is evidence of this oppression (3) the solution is (A) equity, legislation requiring equal representation without regard to performance and (B) removal of current societal norms
@@rad_lad_2715 I agreed with everything here except on the point of 3A. Guess I'm not woke. Whoopie.
"Marriage is not possible for everyone - it is only for those with a special gift. Some are incapable of marriage from birth, some are made incapable by the actions of men, and some have made themselves so for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let the man who can accept what I have said, accept it." - Matthew 19: 11 & 12
As somebody grow up with VeggieTales I hate every time when they say Bob and Larry are gay stop saying things that are stupid people now again politicians exist so I guess we can’t stop all people from saying stupid stuff
Not the first time, as far back as Achilles and Patroclus, Alexander and Ephestiones, to today's kids cartoons like Luca and Alberto, two men united by brotherly love, have to be gay, no other possible explanation
Not Bob and Larry😂 what do they have to do with homosexuality? They’re cartoon vegetables meant to share the word of God to children. I watched veggietales as a kid, they never mentioned homosexuality in any episode I’ve ever seen
I Pray he repents and believes the gospel or on judgment Day. He will face God the Father as an unbeliever.
should he pray the sinners prayer?
The only thing that can save you is if God regenerates you and saves you from yourself and I pray he does. But it be his will.
@@ionlybowtogod9268you’re a calvinist?
My favorite part of this is that InspiringPhilosophy wasn't gonna let Veggie Tales go unanswered.
Ppl just be butchering Christian history left and right; and yet, no one bothers to do this to any other religions. You'd swear Christianity was the only faith on the planet as much as it's criticized. Which makes it that much more true.
Truth!!! The Bible is the ultimate truth!!!!
The Bible clearly tells us that homosexuality is a sin
( Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God )
1 corinthians 6 :9
And in roman 1:27
( In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.)
“The first word is malakoi, which literally means “soft” and is translated in the NRSV as “male prostitutes.” (Miner & Connoley, pg. 18) In terms of morality, during the first century, malakos referred to attributes such as laziness, degeneracy, decadence or lack of courage. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 17, citing Martin, Arsenokoites and Malakos, pg. 124). In the patriarchal culture at that time, being “soft like a woman” was a common insult. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 17) First- century Romans believed that any man who was more interested in pleasure than in duty, was woman-like. So Paul may have been referring to men who were weak or effeminate, such as those unfit for military service. In fact, the King James Version translates the word malakoi as “effeminate.”
Malakoi was also sometimes used to refer to male prostitutes, particularly young boys who were the passive partners in sexual relationships with men. (Dwyer, pg. 63) It was common at that time for married heterosexual men to keep a boy, often one who had been captured and castrated, for sexual pleasure. (Dwyer, pg. 63) So Paul may have been referring specifically to male prostitutes rather than soft men in general (Miner & Connoley, pg. 18), and this would certainly be appropriate on a list of sins. Of course, this sort of abuse would be abhorrent and intolerable to modern Christians, but it does not refer to consensual relationships between same-sex couples.
The second Greek word used here is “arsenokoites,” translated in the NRSV by the ambiguous term “sodomites.” Arsenokoites is a composite of two Greek words, arseno, meaning “male,” and koites, meaning “bed,” with the connotation of sexual intercourse. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 18, Helminiak, pg. 109) But when these two parts of the word are put together, the meaning is unclear. It may refer specifically to a man who has sex with another man, or it may be referring to a man who has sex with anyone, outside of marriage, including possibly a woman. Think, for example, of the English word “understand.” It is composed of two words, “under” and “stand,” but its meaning does not relate either to the act of standing, or to being under something. (Rogers, pg. 70)
One way to learn a word’s definition is to analyze it in other contexts. However, the word arsenokoites is extremely rare, appearing in only one other place in the Bible, I Timothy, which will be discussed below. The Greek word, arsenokoites, is not found anywhere else in Greek literature prior to the first century, when these passages of scripture were written. It appeared in only a few writings after that, most of which were derived from the vice list which appears in I Corinthians, without any context to shed light on its meaning. (Miner & Connoley, pgs. 18-20; Brownson, pg. 42)
There are, however, a few stories in non-Biblical Greek literature that suggest the word arsenokoites refers to instances where one male uses his superior power or position to take sexual advantage of another. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 20) Many scholars therefore conclude that the term refers to forcible male-on-male sex, or to sexual exploitation involving prostitution. (Miner & Connoley, pgs. 20-21; Helminiak, pgs. 109-110; Rogers, pgs. 70-71, citing Martin, Arsenokoites and Malakos, pg. 121) In fact, several scholars emphasize the link between these two terms (malakos and arsenokoites) and the common Greek practice of pederasty, which is the sexual use of younger boys (possibly the word malakos) by older men (possibly the word arsenokoites). (Helminiak, pg. 110) In this context, these words are certainly appropriate on a list of sinful vices. In short, no one is really sure what the words malakos and arsenokoites mean in this I Corinthians passage. The most that can be said, with any certainty, is that the passage appears to condemn sexual abuse and exploitation (Helminiak, pg. 113), a position with which all modern Christians should readily agree.” elcvienna.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Booklet-about-Homosexuality-and-the-Bible-Sept.-2016.pdf
@@MrMortal_RaYou’re just reaching at this point though. “It probably means this but there’s a chance it might mean this.” No. Arsenokoitai means men and bed and was addressed to the church of Corinth in response to their homosexual relationships and cross dressing. We know the context surrounding that word. Then there’s Jesus affirming what marriage is himself.
Also, there’s זָכָ֔ר (za-kar) and תּוֹעֵבָ֖ה (to-we-bah) which means male and abomination in a sexual context. If you’re being intellectually honest, all of the evidence, context, and the entire creation story points to homosexuality being abnormal and an abomination regarding the standard of God.
@@MrMortal_RaSo: It might just be something detestable, not sinful?
And so it's still sinful because men cant marry eachother?
@@MrMortal_Ra how do you justify Romans 1?
@@rarescevei8268 What? Explain?
During this time sexuality was a very different thing unlike what we think today. In Rome they had around the same concept of marriage even though they were pagans. Though not exactly the same. They also made fun of homosexuality through many different plays. There were still some gay relationships in the empire but they still weren’t excepted. In the cases that there were they would treat the submissive out of the two terribly then the dominant one would be also treated bad but to a lesser extent than the submissive of the two. That’s because there value of masculinity had a huge role in society. The elites of Roman society were expected to also go to war if need be like in second Punic war when Hannibal was wreaking havoc across all of Italy. The battle cannae was a prime example of this where every Roman senator who wasn’t of old age was involved in the battle and those of old age had sent their sons instead. The battle ended terribly of course with the Roman army being outmaneuvered and encircled and utterly annihilated.
Our identity is in Christ. I wince when I hear a believer label themselves by their sinful inclination no matter what that inclination may be.
We are crucified with Christ. It is not I that lives but Christ who lives in me.
"Bob and Larry are gay."
Bro they're vegetables.
Poor Bob and Larry 😂
God judge Sodom and Gomorrah, soon He will judge America...
People just make up crap and think it’s true.
Thanks for exposing this.
While I do think the idea that Christianity should absolutely be for anyone who wants it, even LQBTQ people, we shouldn't let them make up these stories about our history. Thanks for keeping everyone accountable for their words, man
Definitely leave Bob and Larry out of this mess! They are best friends! End of story.
Can you make a video about the arguments for Protestantism as based in the Bible? We know the work ethic part of it for sure but I’m interested to see what you can dig up. I’m a little slow and don’t have the time to pour over old documents and such. Me and my family LOVE your videos, and would love one on this topic, thank you IP!
Men cant show care and affection to each other without assuming romantic intentions ?
Um pretty sure they had the concepts down even if they didn’t use the same terminology. It’s widely known that Alexander the Great encouraged gay relations among his soldiers because he thought it would increase their bond and they would fight better to protect their lover. Which was well before Christianity. It was more accepted in Rome as well. The ancients just weren’t as prude.
They so badly want to be told their sins are acceptable.
Epic I’ll be there. God bless you and keep you.
I believe Veggie Tales has gone WOKE
If they come for Veggie Tales I might throw hands!
Two guys who had a close friendship in history
lgbt crowd and "historians":
tHeY MUst HavE BeEn gaY!!!🤪🤪🤪
Next thing you'll tell me is that Achilles and Patroclus weren't actually gay lovers but good friends forged through conflict
No way you want a historical instance of people being good friends instead of gay, and brought up the greeks. THE GREEKS WERE SOME WIERD DUDES
Did Websters update the definition of "next"?
Last I checked next implied a chronological advance rather than back 1-4+ centuries.
@@gonzoengineering4894 You thought you had something there. "Next thing *you'll* tell me" The *you'll* makes this a chronological advance.
@@thefighter6071 Do you think not knowing how adverbs work is a flex?
I hate when people deny the possibility of gay people living without sexual acts. So yeah, in early christanity there were gay people. They were everywhere and everytime no matter who they were
Why is it that whenever two males who are very close (good friends, like brothers, roomates) have to be assumed to be gay? Whatever happrned to the closeness and bondness males can have with each other without the preposition that they are gay? (Bob and Larry, Bert and Ernie). It's madness!
Unfortunately, the creator of VeggieTales (Phil Vischer) confirmed on Twitter what this dude said about Bob and Larry
Seriously?
Sadly, I'm not surprised. He also defended abortion.
No way he went after Bob and Larry, nuh uh he crossed a line.
You are my favorite Christian teacher, dude you are the best. I love your style.
I literally keep hearing this thing
Same with David and Jonathan being accepted gay men by God
Guys i have a really important question how many witnesses saw Jesus's resurrection
@@tuesdaynight9725 ty man
*N O N E*
@@HangrySaturn what about Jesus's disciples? There is evidence they witnessed the event
@@HangrySaturnYou should probably check out the babylon bee video on what if the resurrection was a hoax
@@WhosDeez-jq2sn "For the Bible tells me so" is not evidence.
I'm not accusing Michael Jones of being dishonest. I do indeed see that the comments which refute his false, opinionated narrative via factual, and historical Roman documents from that ancient era, and as well the expounding and explain the ancient Roman definition of "eunuch", which in part meant "born gay" are missing though oddly. And to remove those would indeed be suppressing the factual, historical truth which indeed would equate to being dishonest.
That’s right, you leave Bob and Larry out of this!
Bob and Larry aren't gay. If anything bob is Larry's social worker
Evil people will say anything.....
I struggled with being a human being and told people I'm a house cat damn it!!
I rember a couple of years back, I started to read how Bible scholars, would claim Paul epistles were forgeries, after reading more on the alphabet people I can see why people want to get ride of Paul’s writings
@@JuanGonzalez-kb3gm willkommen in der Realität. Er Epheser Brief ist nicht von Paulus 😘✝️🏳️🌈
I agree with you more than disagree,
Even if it wasn’t written by Paul, the early church viewed it as Authoritative, even more than 1st clement who was a disciple to Petter and Paul.
It could have been one of Paul’s students.
Heresy after heresy! Ugh 😣 🤮
I hear about toxic masculinity a lot. Bet this guy uses the phrase, but I’m trying to figure out what level of toxicity does it take for “two dudes are best friends? Impossible must be gay”
"there were gay Christians in first centurie"
IP: Well yes but actualy no
Hes saying homosexuals have existed, that doesn't mean they're condoned in the Bible
@@christiancastillo5729I know
The dude probably thought that Frodo and Sam were gay, too
Most serious academics these days accept that Jesus and his posey were all gay for each other. I don’t think this is even in debate among serious people.
It's not a debate because it's completely false, unsubstantiated, and ridiculous.
Are people not allowed to have nonsexual relationships anymore?
@@hitreset1203 is not a debate meaning it is entirely accepted as true in serious circles. But go ahead. Believe as you choose. You are only harming yourself
@@davidvernon3119 - Show me these "serious circles" please.
wasn't there like a story where a dude went to a really sinful town and they were gay and God said that was bad or sum
That is somewhat the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, albeit without any of the substance or recognizable features
They don’t do no other religion like this
I’m coming out the closet…
I’m
A Christian ✝️
God bless you Jesus can save you all!
So, explain David's love for Jonathan and what he meant by it "surpassing that of women", why they got naked in front of each other and why king Saul was angered by their relationship. I'm just reading the Bible. Didn't have to rely on some historian from Yale for that.
_"...merely united as brothers."_
I'm closer to my brother than most people I know are to most people they've had a sexual relationship with.
Why not ask Bob and Larry's cartoonist if they were gay? Doug TenNapel is here and active on youtube. I'm sure he'd be happy to clear this one up.
I dont struggle with homosexual desires I'm actually quite good at it
He really went after bob and Larry? There should be a defamation lawsuit
Let's close our eyes and assume he's right (which he isn't) and they were sharing the same bed it still doesn't matter doesn't change the Christan position on the issue.
Our scriptures are clear on the issue and that same sex intimacy is a sin, heck every kind of sexual activity outside marriage is a sin and the only marriage allowed is between a man and a woman.
I just want to encourage all to donate to Iocc.
I have checked the mony goes to the people in need.❤
Why is this staged like an interview. 😂. Did they really have to fake their own interview just to prove their narrow view of the world?
Christ soke against it.
Where did christ speak against homosexuality?
@@vividfiber6668He affirmed what marriage is, quoting Genesis 2:24. Plus, Paul received his knowledge from the ASCENDED Jesus, meaning Paul’s words are inspired by Jesus which clearly talks about all sexual immorality.
Not really.
The past: 2 men have a deep friendship.
Current gay people: they must have been secretly gay.
Stop representing all people who suffer with these desires.
@@rarescevei8268 its a generalization. Toughen up
@@jacobhargiss9909 Yeah, but we dont need to throw in people who struggle with keeping these urges under control.
@@rarescevei8268 if it doesnt apply to them, then I'm not talking about them
@@jacobhargiss9909 chill man it's not that hot
DONT BRING BOB AND LARRY INTO THIS