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There's Section 31, The Obsidian Order, The Tal Shiar, then we have Klingon Intelligence, they must been up all night to think up the name of the last one.
Like Starfleet, the Klingons aren't known to do things that would compromise their code of honor, so their intelligence network is probably similar to standard Starfleet intelligence, which do play very loosely with the laws of the Federation as seen in the Pegasus incident of the Next Generation, but otherwise keep themselves within their codes of conduct. Section 31 is mainly a placeholder name as its an organization that officially doesn't exist, making it more akin to an independent paramilitary group that serves the Federation's interests. One thing I think Sisko got wrong about them is that they don't consider themselves Federation citizens, as they abandon everything, including their morality, identities and even lives, in order that the Federation endures. As Sloan said, they fight not for themselves but so that people with strong moral compasses like Bashir can flourish in peace.
It’s odd to say, “Klingon Intelligence.” Not something that comes to mind, and I admit that’s rude of my bias. I just think of Body Armor, Duels to the Death and Raptors.
Took me 30 seconds to find an English to Klingon online translator, came up with Maveq Tam, the Silent Dagger, I think it sounds pretty cool as a name for Klingon KGB...
Federation was founded by Vulcans, Andorians, Humans, and Tellarites. At least 3 of those groups being experts at espionage and black-ops, this sort of organization would have been an inevitability.
True. The Federation would never have survived its infancy (let alone, for over 200 years) if there weren't people in Star Fleet who were willing to get their hands dirty; and make the moral compromises necessary for its survival, that most humans of that era, didn't have the stomach for.
There's no indication Section 31 has any members that are non human and it existed and started on earth. I havent read the books which arent canon but I'm sure it's human only which also could indicate mistrust and xenophobia at the heart of Section 31.
In the Federation's post scarcity economy, an off the books intelligence agency like Section 31 would have a virtually limitless budget without ever being dependent on Starfleet proper. It's not like they need fleets and space stations, the only things that still come at a material cost in Federation society. More resource constrained aversary organizations like the Tal Shiar and Obsidian order would be at a serious disadvantage.
The realisation that the Federation employs a department like Section 31 is the equivalent of the courtroom speech that Jack Nicholson gave in 'A Few Good Men.' "Ideals" rarely survive when brought into conflict with reality. And to protect these "Ideals" there has to be people that are willing to sacrifice their own.
Exactly, a government like the Federation could never exist in real life; even if we succeeded to implement it, it would've been crushed in under a year because the sweet little idealists running it would not be able to bring themselves to save the lives of their citizens because their conscience would be left guilty
@@righteousdescent2271except that the Federation has survived several wars, skirmishes and political crises without Section 31 help and the fact the the Federation had an article in the Constitution saying that it’s ok to break our own rules in time of extraordinary threat means that they know they will need to do bad things sometimes. The Federation naivety makes it’s less militant and paranoid but it also makes it more attractive to neutral species, which is why it expands faster than any other power in any quadrant. Whether its population, borders, science or allies the Federation has grown and will continue to grow until it outnumbers and out powers everyone else.
Dennis Alfonso It should be directed by someone like Quentin Tarantino!!!!! It should also be aired on a streaming service/tv channel that allows a lot of violence. Lots of violence.
@@richardgilliland2699 I suspect that if Section 31 did its job properly there would not be much violence. Someone dying of a heart attack here, a stroke there, an offensive cancelled because of "corruption" in the upper ranks and a well placed strike. Violence is what they would do if the plan fails.
@@TheRealAmythyst I hate that you're right. Hardcore liberal trekkies still defend it, but it sucks so bad even they won't release the gross profit it makes.
@@Kentololable This just makes me even more angry that Kurtzman has had his contract with Viacom/CBS renewed. How much more can one man ruin Star Trek? Gene Rodenberry would be rolling in his grave
One minor inaccuracy. Bashir didn't interrogate Sloan for the cure to save the Founders out of grand altruistic compassion. He did it because Odo was patient zero who was unwittingly used by section 31 to infect the Founders. Saving Odo was entirely the reason Bashir and O'Brien basically committed mild treason, because he was a valued friend. As for the female Founder calling off the war. I think it was much less a negotiation for peace with the cure as a bargaining chip, as it was Odo sharing with her his memories how his friends(solids) went against their own government to save him(a changeling), even at the risk of imprisonment or helping the Dominion win. It was the final realization that not all solids are the enemy, and that the whole reason for the Dominion's expansion and conquest was misguided.
There are people who sacrifice their souls to protect what they hold dear most and there are people who too naive to do what have to be done. The worst is those who not act think that they do right
“The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist.” Section 31 were much scarier than Obsidian Order or Tal Shiar TBH.
In the alternate Star Trek timeline, Marcus worked for Section 31. He and his affiliates woke up and tortured and augment without knowing what they got their hands on in order to provoke a war with the Klingons. He was going to commit genocide and be the cause for the deaths of millions if not billions. I hate saying this, but Marcus as a psychopath was worse than Khan who was utterly batshit and a sociopath, willing to kill indiscriminately to destroy people less superior than himself. He leveled San Francisco. Either one of them having power is insane but Marcus opened pandora's box. Section 31 was corrupt to its core. At least justice of some kind was served upon Marcus. He was the instigator for all those acts.
jtjr26, please forgive my intrusion, I seem to notice that ONLY Memory Alpha (and through Mr. Harris-ENT:Divergence) outlined the basics of 31. I appreciate this poster's focusing on the facts.
section 31 is probably the only reason the federation never got wiped out by enemies who actually manned their militaries with soldiers and warships instead of research vessels and science hippie pacifists
A long time ago a friend of mine said TOS and TNG were like the "honeymoon" of human space exploration, diplomacy and alien relations, while DS9 was the "marriage"
I just wanted to say (again) how much I enjoy and appreciate your channel and content you produce. So much so that I have taken a liking to several titles that I had been unfamiliar with on account of watching the videos you have made discussing some aspect of them i.e "The wheel of time", so thank you for that! I am always eager to see what you have posted. I hope you continue the great work.
Tal shiar: You won't know when we're watching you, but you'll always know there's the chance, so don't be a hero. Obsidian Order: You say 4, but there are 5 lights. Comply. Section 31: You misunderstand, there is no such thing as Section 31. --file deleted--
It's kinda cool to think that section 31 has existed since before the actual founding of the federation. Not by much, but still pretty cool. Wouldn't be surprised if it was formed shortly after first contact in 2063.
@@jetsetatrophy67 Apparently the "group" known as thus took their "name" from section-31 of first the United Earth charter and then finally the Federation charter...Uncreative? Yes as their not meant to really exist but they do exist behind the scenes as they are the true unsung heroes of the Alpha Quadrant.
Section 31 are just expendable operatives. There is a much more powerful entity giving the orders behind it. Read Star Trek novel Section 31: Control for details. It blew my mind. It puts many things about the history of the Federation into a new shining perspective.
Liking the X Files vibe, I posted on here before the journey of a Mulder type protagonist who tries to uncover S31 yet realises they HAVE to exist and he becomes their latest recruit, it's not a necessarily turn to the Dark Side show more a, well yes you have peace and order through Star Fleet but they are only a shiny veneer of what's really going on, to quote Faith No More, oh it's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it....
it would be yet another overly pessimistic, dystopian view of the future. there's no way I'm watching something like that if it carries the Star Trek name.
They made a series of four Section 31 tie-in novels which came out before Enterprise aired (each one set during a different ST TV series). I have all four.
I´m sure Section 31 must have at least 1 big starship under their complete control (senior staff at least). It would be interesting to see a show like that and their morally grey adventures.
Love these vids. I stopped watching Discovery after about the 6th episode with that weak forced love interest. It's cool to see Section 31's fingers involved in everything. I might pick up the show again just to see that bit. God I wish for a legit new series that isn't a prequel. A proper continuation of the series.
Deep Space Nine started out kind of sucky but it got a lot better. the whole war with the Dominion was actually kind of good. although it did have its pitiful moments.
The ship vectors are brilliant, the logos, characters, all of them. I'm using Illustrator again to vectorize more characters and history. I'd watch all of Star Trek for these videos
Section 31 is an acknowledgement of the Truth. The truth that good men can not wage war, and remain good men, and that there are times where the all out comes are bad, but war is the least bad. As such paradise can't exist without devils to protect it
What if the entire senior staff "NX 01 USS Enterprise" was eventually recruited by section 31, that would close some of the hole in the story? And what if Capt. Archer was the most prominent member of said section?
Basically, Section 31 can be describe as an essential Black Oops intelligence unit. Section 31 is likely organize into a system of cells. Each cell is allow mostly to operate independently, The organization does show to have a system which allows any cell to contact one of the other cells. The main objectives of Section 31 are focus on intelligence gathering. Each of the episodes which feature Section 31 treat Section 31 as a rogue intelligence operation. Yet like any Black Oops unit, Section 31 must have some major rules design to prevent any cell from going rogue. One of the problems with an intelligence gathering Black Oops unit like Section 31 is focus on an occasional cell going rogue. Whenever a one cell or two go rogue, their actions do threaten to expose Section 31. Somehow, Starfleet Intelligence is able to cover up almost of any rogue cell activity. The best which Starfleet Intelligence can do with most of the rouge members is give them a slap of the wrist with a two by four board made from hard lumber. Basically, Section 31 is the Dark Oops unit of Starfleet Intelligence. Except on the occasional incident involving a rogue cell or two, Section 31 works very carefully in the Shadows as doing its primary job of intelligence gathering. Like any Dark Oops organization, Section 31 seems to never have to exist except in the minds of a few rogue zealot Starfleet Intelligence Officers.. Yet, Section 31 does exist.
Fan theory, Jake Sisko is actually an agent of Section 31 and has been since he decided not to join Star Fleet Academy!!! His writing authorship is simply a cover for his activities. This is why in many episodes he says he has his writing "sources" but we never discover who they are. Additionally, this is how and why Jake pushes for Major Kira and Odo to create a Starfleet resistance cell during the Dominion occupation of DS9. In addition, this is how Section 31 is able to poison Odo without having anyone in direct contact with Odo except... Jake Sisko. This is the real reason why Jake Sisko decides to stay on DS9 and how he somehow takes part indirectly in so many military operations. Additionally, Mourn the alien who frequents Quark's bar, is also a member of Section 31, which is why he is seemingly in the background but never directly interferes with the story.
What future shows would get wrong is that Section 31 was never an official branch, like the Tal'Shiar or the Obsidian Order. Section 31 had no badges or ships. They were a secret society operating within the Federation and Starfleet. A conspiracy based on a very loose interpretation of the Federation Charter.
It was in the best interests of the FEDERATION for Flox to find a cure? Unusually sloppy mistake for you, especially since you mention the founding of the Federation a couple of sentences later. Good video despite that though.
Not sure if anyone will read this but I dont think Section 31 is dead after the end of DS9. My guess is they had a hand in what happened to Mars which happened during the evacuation of Romulus. I think they are behind the synthetics and what the Romulans are doing with the Borg. ( Spoilers sorry) Makes sense maybe during Picards adventures about what happened to Doge he will meet up with someone from Section 31
The problem with Section 31 is that they are above any oversight. "Who watches the watchers?" In the quintessential DS9 episode, "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," it is not only revealed that Section 31 was working with a new member of the Romulan High Council and head of the Tal Shi'ar, but in fact may have been directing involved with the assassination of Vice Admiral Fujisake, formerly of Starfleet Intelligence. So evidently, Section 31 won't hesitate to knock off a high ranking member of Starfleet.
I think they justify it by weighing the risks and the rewards. If they feel the reward is worth the risk they gladly will kill members of Starfleet if it would benefit the federation survival. Section 31 is the Pragmantic Well Intentioned Extremist who does anything to protect the thing they took an oath to protect.
The concept of Section 31 was only truly implemented in DS9. Anything shown in TOS and TNG technically doesnt involve them, but could be retconned if desired
@@jt4369 As I am taking my kids through TNG I told them that Klingon honor is a two-edged sword. I suspect that the honor we hear the Klingons talking about brings up the idea of Samauri's, Knights, or whatever - fair play and humanity, based on the ideals of our culture. I suspect Klingon culture allows for fighting fairly, yet defines "fairness" differently than humans. We see some of that in our own cultures. The American ideal ending to a heroic story traditionally is the good guy defeats all the bad guys and rides off into the sunset with the girl. In Far Eastern cultures, like China, the ideal ending is the hero dying standing up with piles of dead bad guys around him with other (living) bad guys afraid to approach the standing corpse, as seen in a lot of Chinese made films in the 60s and 70s. Kor, from the old series and appearing briefly in DS9, said something about, " honor isn't what it used to be". Klingon culture is one of winning battles and, while we may view underhanded means of winning a war as "not quite fair" Klingons probably view victory as the final goal.
@@richardthomas5362 Fair observations. Then the universal translator lost a bit when it was doing its job, haha. And also good point about relativism in the use of language. I suspect that when Klingons use the word honor, in actuality it’s closer to what the Chinese would call ‘face’: social esteem, regardless of the means taken to get there. By the way, I’m ethnically Chinese and most of us would not include the second clause of my definition of face above. That’s part of the artifice, you see. True honor either no longer exists or only existed in men like Mr. Rogers, Daniel Inoue or maybe persons of dubious origin stories. For me, I might want the riches associated with I’ll-gotten “honor,” (quote marks deliberate), but internally such glory would be very bitter indeed. In, however, my single purpose was to secure victory, then “honor” is merely a bonus. All this lofty talk of honor only becomes more and more grating to my ears.
What if Starfleet as a whole was but a facade for Section 31? what if the man in glasses, future guy and Archer are somehow the same person? further what if Archer Is/Was a member of Section 31 well before he Assumed a Rank in Starfleet? along that thought what if all of the crew of NX01 Enterprise are all members of Section 31?
You know, section 31 almost doomed the alpha quadrant. The group of "enhanced humans" predicted that even if cardassia revolted (which it did) they would all still lose to the Dominion, and their predictions seem like they would come true had odo not seen the female changeling with the cure for his people. Had odo perished or had he not ended up on cardassia near the end of the war, the Dominion would have fought down to the last man standing.
You need to watch the excellent British spy series called Spooks, the MI5, British version of the CIA, routinely recruit non Brits into their group due to mutual interests, S31 and the Tal Shiar may have a mutual interest or adversary so it may be that they temporarily work together or it may just be individuals motivated by personal, political or financial reasons.
Can't help wondering what Gene Roddenberry would think about Section 31 being created by showrunners for the Star Trek Prime universe. Would he object? Unless I'm mistaken, he did have utopian ideals about what human beings could accomplish if we put aside our differences and worked together, hence the Original Star Trek series being the most diverse show on television at the time, including a Russian crewmember on the Enterprise during the Cold War :) But it was the 60's. Vietnam, Civil Rights, government upheaval, etc. Maybe he would understand that human beings, even in a science fiction utopia on Earth will still revert to old habits.
I don't think the federation would be able to exist without section 31. Even in the original series and TNG, Starfleet and the federation had suspect morals! They even used the prime directive to justify some of their bad decisions! Roddenberry would have agreed that section 31, would be a necessary organization within the federation! IMHO!
I think he would be okay with it specifically because its a rogue organization with no ties to starfleet beyond a mutual interest in the defense of the federation.
Star'ree the timelordin intelligence organization one of the most feared organization in history just like tal'shiar, obsidian order and the klingon intelligence.
Everything has been said on the channel is on point. But he forgot one thing, one crucial but yet fundamental point. Whatever is behind this one crucial point... what about the Droid attack on the wookies???
Cardassians or not, fighting back with conspiracy, manipulation, assassinations and disregard for justice and basic rights makes you antithetical to the fundamental ideals of the federation.
Section 31 is like having nuclear weapons. A last resort, but a weapon you never deprive yourself of, especially when the enemy is all too eager to use it against you. Let's not forget, the Dominian, Romulan and Klingons would have all done the same. It was only the Federation who had the the ability of a moment of pause to consider its actions.
Hi Civilization Doubt you will read this but I am having a lore dispute who does take me as a good source I've read the trilogy 7 times. The Hobbit 12 times. The Silmarillion 3 times, and alot of the Christopher Tolkien Books. He claims that the Maiar aren't Ainur.
@@oliverewarthopkins7818 Do your homework, it isn't and legally cannot be. It all has to do with the CBS and Viacom split. It is the reason why the JJ Abrams films had to be in a completely seperate universe, why Star Trek was off TV for so many years, and one of the reasons why Bryan Fuller left the series during development. Also, the Enterprise that appeared in discovery had to be different (there is an actual legal percentage that has to be different), same with uniforms and everything. The Enterprise was much larger than the canon one, same with the bridge and everything we saw. Discovery is not canon, and can never be. Unless Viacom and CBS re-merge (which may happen), we will never get a true canon Star Trek series or movie.
I noticed that many of the comments are strongly against the inclusion of STD. One suggestion: Distinguish what is classic timeline and what is Kelvin timeline. And preempt with audio and video which you are including beforehand, and why. That might ease tensions and prevent surprises. Also, since STD content will turn up first chronologically, you don’t want to risk viewership so early on, and risk ad revenue potential. I hope that helps.
Only one issue - Discovery is technically prime timeline. I will begrudgingly admit that it is canon, because that's what Paramount says. That doesn't mean I have to like it...
P. B Amygdala, as opposed to how Discovery ATTEMPTS to have us believe that their version of the universe is the #ActualPrimeUniverse, it is NOT at all. Instead, the glaring adjustments to ship/uniform styling, two issues that can be discussed at a later time, have been far removed from the original canon. Long story short, Discovery(as written), doesn't belong to the #ActualPrimeUniverse. It's ACTUALLY a separate timeline, known as the #kurtzmanuniverse.
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You should do a video on the Terran Empire and the Klingon/Cardassian Alliance.
I wanna know what section 31 was like in the TOS era.
Ironic that the most peace advocating power in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants has the most dangerous and effective intelligence agency.
There's Section 31, The Obsidian Order, The Tal Shiar, then we have Klingon Intelligence, they must been up all night to think up the name of the last one.
Like Starfleet, the Klingons aren't known to do things that would compromise their code of honor, so their intelligence network is probably similar to standard Starfleet intelligence, which do play very loosely with the laws of the Federation as seen in the Pegasus incident of the Next Generation, but otherwise keep themselves within their codes of conduct. Section 31 is mainly a placeholder name as its an organization that officially doesn't exist, making it more akin to an independent paramilitary group that serves the Federation's interests. One thing I think Sisko got wrong about them is that they don't consider themselves Federation citizens, as they abandon everything, including their morality, identities and even lives, in order that the Federation endures. As Sloan said, they fight not for themselves but so that people with strong moral compasses like Bashir can flourish in peace.
It’s odd to say, “Klingon Intelligence.” Not something that comes to mind, and I admit that’s rude of my bias. I just think of Body Armor, Duels to the Death and Raptors.
Meanwhile the Borg:. You will be assimulated. Resistance is futile.
😂😂😂😂😂
Took me 30 seconds to find an English to Klingon online translator, came up with Maveq Tam, the Silent Dagger, I think it sounds pretty cool as a name for Klingon KGB...
Federation was founded by Vulcans, Andorians, Humans, and Tellarites. At least 3 of those groups being experts at espionage and black-ops, this sort of organization would have been an inevitability.
True.
The Federation would never have survived its infancy (let alone, for over 200 years) if there weren't people in Star Fleet who were willing to get their hands dirty; and make the moral compromises necessary for its survival, that most humans of that era, didn't have the stomach for.
There's no indication Section 31 has any members that are non human and it existed and started on earth. I havent read the books which arent canon but I'm sure it's human only which also could indicate mistrust and xenophobia at the heart of Section 31.
@@BlackCloudBoss doubt section 31 was xenophobic. Koval was a operative memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Koval
In the Federation's post scarcity economy, an off the books intelligence agency like Section 31 would have a virtually limitless budget without ever being dependent on Starfleet proper. It's not like they need fleets and space stations, the only things that still come at a material cost in Federation society. More resource constrained aversary organizations like the Tal Shiar and Obsidian order would be at a serious disadvantage.
They would be full of Vulkans!
The realisation that the Federation employs a department like Section 31 is the equivalent of the courtroom speech that Jack Nicholson gave in 'A Few Good Men.'
"Ideals" rarely survive when brought into conflict with reality. And to protect these "Ideals" there has to be people that are willing to sacrifice their own.
@@JohnAlexanderiii Sorry, were you informing the world about what resides between your ears?
That's because reality and our idea of it rarely coincide.
Exactly, a government like the Federation could never exist in real life; even if we succeeded to implement it, it would've been crushed in under a year because the sweet little idealists running it would not be able to bring themselves to save the lives of their citizens because their conscience would be left guilty
@@righteousdescent2271except that the Federation has survived several wars, skirmishes and political crises without Section 31 help and the fact the the Federation had an article in the Constitution saying that it’s ok to break our own rules in time of extraordinary threat means that they know they will need to do bad things sometimes.
The Federation naivety makes it’s less militant and paranoid but it also makes it more attractive to neutral species, which is why it expands faster than any other power in any quadrant. Whether its population, borders, science or allies the Federation has grown and will continue to grow until it outnumbers and out powers everyone else.
Star Trek: Section 31, the TV series. Just imagine what it would be like if it were to be done correctly.
Dennis Alfonso It should be directed by someone like Quentin Tarantino!!!!! It should also be aired on a streaming service/tv channel that allows a lot of violence. Lots of violence.
@@richardgilliland2699 I suspect that if Section 31 did its job properly there would not be much violence. Someone dying of a heart attack here, a stroke there, an offensive cancelled because of "corruption" in the upper ranks and a well placed strike. Violence is what they would do if the plan fails.
@@richardgilliland2699 you got your wish it's called STAR TREK: DISCOVERY
@@TheRealAmythyst I hate that you're right. Hardcore liberal trekkies still defend it, but it sucks so bad even they won't release the gross profit it makes.
@@Kentololable This just makes me even more angry that Kurtzman has had his contract with Viacom/CBS renewed. How much more can one man ruin Star Trek? Gene Rodenberry would be rolling in his grave
One minor inaccuracy. Bashir didn't interrogate Sloan for the cure to save the Founders out of grand altruistic compassion. He did it because Odo was patient zero who was unwittingly used by section 31 to infect the Founders. Saving Odo was entirely the reason Bashir and O'Brien basically committed mild treason, because he was a valued friend. As for the female Founder calling off the war. I think it was much less a negotiation for peace with the cure as a bargaining chip, as it was Odo sharing with her his memories how his friends(solids) went against their own government to save him(a changeling), even at the risk of imprisonment or helping the Dominion win. It was the final realization that not all solids are the enemy, and that the whole reason for the Dominion's expansion and conquest was misguided.
lol @ the Arrested Development reference.
Josh Kim what reference?
Cian McCabe I think it's probably a mix of both. I always felt like she just wanted him back for his knowledge of the Cardassians and the Federation
@@DontarrestmePLZ "mild treason" is the reference.
damen whelan I'm pretty sure the phrase is Arrested Development is "light treason".
"Someone has to protect men like you from a Universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong"
Please tell the babies' first fantasy people that
CIA
There are people who sacrifice their souls to protect what they hold dear most and there are people who too naive to do what have to be done. The worst is those who not act think that they do right
“The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist.” Section 31 were much scarier than Obsidian Order or Tal Shiar TBH.
“Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer.” - Javik, The Avatar of Vengeance
This epic Prothean quote actually fits Section 31 well. Underrated my friend.
@@justinfrazier9555 definitely. Section 31 also has some similarities to Cerberus, now that i think about it.
Section 31 did nothing wrong.
just like their founder, Griffith.
I disagree
They won the war!
@@fumarc4501 I disagree with you. Section 31 did nothing wrong because AFAWK, Section 31 dosen't exist.
In the alternate Star Trek timeline, Marcus worked for Section 31. He and his affiliates woke up and tortured and augment without knowing what they got their hands on in order to provoke a war with the Klingons. He was going to commit genocide and be the cause for the deaths of millions if not billions. I hate saying this, but Marcus as a psychopath was worse than Khan who was utterly batshit and a sociopath, willing to kill indiscriminately to destroy people less superior than himself. He leveled San Francisco. Either one of them having power is insane but Marcus opened pandora's box. Section 31 was corrupt to its core. At least justice of some kind was served upon Marcus. He was the instigator for all those acts.
Section 31 is one of my favorite things about Deep Space 9. It makes the Federation seem less Pollyanna like.
Exactly.
jtjr26, please forgive my intrusion, I seem to notice that ONLY Memory Alpha (and through Mr. Harris-ENT:Divergence) outlined the basics of 31. I appreciate this poster's focusing on the facts.
section 31 is probably the only reason the federation never got wiped out by enemies who actually manned their militaries with soldiers and warships instead of research vessels and science hippie pacifists
Compare the tone of things in DS9 with the Dominion War and Section 31 with the first few seasons of TNG. Big difference.
A long time ago a friend of mine said TOS and TNG were like the "honeymoon" of human space exploration, diplomacy and alien relations, while DS9 was the "marriage"
I just wanted to say (again) how much I enjoy and appreciate your channel and content you produce. So much so that I have taken a liking to several titles that I had been unfamiliar with on account of watching the videos you have made discussing some aspect of them i.e "The wheel of time", so thank you for that! I am always eager to see what you have posted. I hope you continue the great work.
Tal shiar: You won't know when we're watching you, but you'll always know there's the chance, so don't be a hero.
Obsidian Order: You say 4, but there are 5 lights. Comply.
Section 31: You misunderstand, there is no such thing as Section 31.
--file deleted--
"Well, s**t... You talked to him." - Alexander Marcus (on Section 31 Agent *John Harrison*}
I love these art on these videos. It’s beautifully clear, and really helps to explain things.
Wasn't Section 31 behind the thief of an early Romulan cloaking device stolen by Captain James T. Kirk?
Nope. That was Capitan Kirk's own ideas but section 31 my have gave the ideas to Starfleet command
It's kinda cool to think that section 31 has existed since before the actual founding of the federation. Not by much, but still pretty cool. Wouldn't be surprised if it was formed shortly after first contact in 2063.
Bro, it was founded in 1947 by a mysterious and enigmatic man that constantly smoked cigarettes...
@@briscoethecollie1510 tell me more
I like to tell myself that Disney has their own Section 31 type enforcement squad
Wait a minute there is a Klingon "intelligence"?? Lol ;)
I always love your vids.
Quite the uncreative name for their group too compared to everyone else.
"intelligence " is a model of heavy disruptor mounted on their battleships
Romulans: “I know right!”
@@jetsetatrophy67 Apparently the "group" known as thus took their "name" from section-31 of first the United Earth charter and then finally the Federation charter...Uncreative? Yes as their not meant to really exist but they do exist behind the scenes as they are the true unsung heroes of the Alpha Quadrant.
I Hope we get to see the Section 31 Show coming in 2021.
Section 31 are just expendable operatives. There is a much more powerful entity giving the orders behind it. Read Star Trek novel Section 31: Control for details. It blew my mind. It puts many things about the history of the Federation into a new shining perspective.
I see the book as canon and forget the crap that is STD.
A Section 31 series would be some of the very best Trek ever. Like a combination of x-files, men in black, agents of shield, and james bond.
Liking the X Files vibe, I posted on here before the journey of a Mulder type protagonist who tries to uncover S31 yet realises they HAVE to exist and he becomes their latest recruit, it's not a necessarily turn to the Dark Side show more a, well yes you have peace and order through Star Fleet but they are only a shiny veneer of what's really going on, to quote Faith No More, oh it's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it....
it would be yet another overly pessimistic, dystopian view of the future. there's no way I'm watching something like that if it carries the Star Trek name.
Too bad no one has made a fan film about Section 31. Star Trek: Section 31
C Gibbons It's called, "Star Trek: Discovery."
No not discovery. I don't want to get an STD.
C Gibbons You already have one if you've watched ST:DS9. 😒
They made a series of four Section 31 tie-in novels which came out before Enterprise aired (each one set during a different ST TV series).
I have all four.
@@cheshirekat3050 really? I am interested. What are the names of those books.
I´m sure Section 31 must have at least 1 big starship under their complete control (senior staff at least). It would be interesting to see a show like that and their morally grey adventures.
Than go watch Star trek Discovery.
A Section 31 centered show would have been much better TV than the new Discovery
the Car Truth Report , maybe that will be the Tarantino Franchise...
TAKE MY MONEY!!
I was just thinking that a true morally grey organization would've fit STD's tone better than Starfleet between Archer and Kirk.
the Car Truth Report I like discovery
i love discovery :D
Love these vids.
I stopped watching Discovery after about the 6th episode with that weak forced love interest.
It's cool to see Section 31's fingers involved in everything. I might pick up the show again just to see that bit.
God I wish for a legit new series that isn't a prequel.
A proper continuation of the series.
It's a long fucking ride but them being together was for a good reason.
Deep Space Nine started out kind of sucky but it got a lot better. the whole war with the Dominion was actually kind of good. although it did have its pitiful moments.
Discovery definitely gets better in season 2.
From this i just realised, that whenever section 31 want to recruit a man, they pick a British guy!
@@francescobirsaalessandri3992 Philipa Georgiou and the Actress Michelle Yeoh are from Malaysia
@@dernerd9816 Oh, my mistake.
VC YT Khan is Indian.
Bashir is more Indian when the crusty brits dominated the street shitters
@@rikosaikawa9024 I thought he was a Pakistani.
The ship vectors are brilliant, the logos, characters, all of them. I'm using Illustrator again to vectorize more characters and history. I'd watch all of Star Trek for these videos
Section 31 also appears in Kelvin, precisely in Star Trek: In to Darkness
Thanks for the video. I’m new here. Liked and subscribed!
"someone has to protect this family from the man that protects this family"
- Skyler White
Can you go over time travel (Enterprise, Voyager, STO) next time?
I love the drawings
Section 31 is an acknowledgement of the Truth. The truth that good men can not wage war, and remain good men, and that there are times where the all out comes are bad, but war is the least bad.
As such paradise can't exist without devils to protect it
What if the entire senior staff "NX 01 USS Enterprise" was eventually recruited by section 31, that would close some of the hole in the story?
And what if Capt. Archer was the most prominent member of said section?
"This organization, this thing that has slithered it's way into the heart of the Federation, it has to be destroyed."
Now drink that root beer
Major Dakka bubbly... and insidious... just... like... the federation...
@@p.bamygdala2139 And the worst part is, if you keep drinking it, you start to like it...
Interesting video.
Civilizationx I love how you narrate I would love for you to narrate my life
So, section 31 is basically ONI?
*BRAVO* Thank You for the upload!
Very interesting
Federation's greatest and most powerful secret.
Hope to see a detailed Kelvin timeline video since it adds to things like section 31
Strange times to be in when "evil" becomes a "necessity"
Well, what do you think war is?
But what is more evil, war or a group that operate above the law in order to avoid war?
I’d be very surprised if the Federation didn’t have something like this
Section-31 is probably the true power in the Alpha Quadrant post Dominion war if not also the Beta Quadrant.
A good summary!
The recent leaks about tom hardy being young Picard and Wesley crusher being section 31 are intriguing .
Basically, Section 31 can be describe as an essential Black Oops intelligence unit. Section 31 is likely organize into a system of cells. Each cell is allow mostly to operate independently, The organization does show to have a system which allows any cell to contact one of the other cells. The main objectives of Section 31 are focus on intelligence gathering. Each of the episodes which feature Section 31 treat Section 31 as a rogue intelligence operation. Yet like any Black Oops unit, Section 31 must have some major rules design to prevent any cell from going rogue. One of the problems with an intelligence gathering Black Oops unit like Section 31 is focus on an occasional cell going rogue. Whenever a one cell or two go rogue, their actions do threaten to expose Section 31. Somehow, Starfleet Intelligence is able to cover up almost of any rogue cell activity. The best which Starfleet Intelligence can do with most of the rouge members is give them a slap of the wrist with a two by four board made from hard lumber. Basically, Section 31 is the Dark Oops unit of Starfleet Intelligence. Except on the occasional incident involving a rogue cell or two, Section 31 works very carefully in the Shadows as doing its primary job of intelligence gathering. Like any Dark Oops organization, Section 31 seems to never have to exist except in the minds of a few rogue zealot Starfleet Intelligence Officers.. Yet, Section 31 does exist.
The mining “accident” on Kronos’ moon facilitated the khitemor accords.
Fan theory, Jake Sisko is actually an agent of Section 31 and has been since he decided not to join Star Fleet Academy!!! His writing authorship is simply a cover for his activities. This is why in many episodes he says he has his writing "sources" but we never discover who they are. Additionally, this is how and why Jake pushes for Major Kira and Odo to create a Starfleet resistance cell during the Dominion occupation of DS9. In addition, this is how Section 31 is able to poison Odo without having anyone in direct contact with Odo except... Jake Sisko. This is the real reason why Jake Sisko decides to stay on DS9 and how he somehow takes part indirectly in so many military operations. Additionally, Mourn the alien who frequents Quark's bar, is also a member of Section 31, which is why he is seemingly in the background but never directly interferes with the story.
Did not mention Ash Tyler was part of Section 31. They mentioned Phillippa Georgiou.
This was made before season 2, I think. Also the author doesn't seem to think Discovery is part of prime canon, so... :-/
What future shows would get wrong is that Section 31 was never an official branch, like the Tal'Shiar or the Obsidian Order. Section 31 had no badges or ships. They were a secret society operating within the Federation and Starfleet. A conspiracy based on a very loose interpretation of the Federation Charter.
No mention of the Kelvin Timeline events from Star Trek: Into Darkness?
These vids primarily cover the prime universe material, but I may do one about alternates at some point as well.
Great Job. I love your voice dude.
It was in the best interests of the FEDERATION for Flox to find a cure? Unusually sloppy mistake for you, especially since you mention the founding of the Federation a couple of sentences later. Good video despite that though.
Whoops, didn't notice that thanks for letting me know.
I loved your video.
Have you read the Section 31 novel series?
make a video about the Kelvin Timeline star trek universe
Need a part 2
Not sure if anyone will read this but I dont think Section 31 is dead after the end of DS9. My guess is they had a hand in what happened to Mars which happened during the evacuation of Romulus. I think they are behind the synthetics and what the Romulans are doing with the Borg. ( Spoilers sorry) Makes sense maybe during Picards adventures about what happened to Doge he will meet up with someone from Section 31
Does the kelvin verses count? Admiral Marcus and the USS Vengeance was definitely Section 31
The problem with Section 31 is that they are above any oversight. "Who watches the watchers?" In the quintessential DS9 episode, "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," it is not only revealed that Section 31 was working with a new member of the Romulan High Council and head of the Tal Shi'ar, but in fact may have been directing involved with the assassination of Vice Admiral Fujisake, formerly of Starfleet Intelligence. So evidently, Section 31 won't hesitate to knock off a high ranking member of Starfleet.
I think they justify it by weighing the risks and the rewards. If they feel the reward is worth the risk they gladly will kill members of Starfleet if it would benefit the federation survival.
Section 31 is the Pragmantic Well Intentioned Extremist who does anything to protect the thing they took an oath to protect.
I can't remember but was section 31 ever mentioned (or showed up) in TOS or TNG?
The concept of Section 31 was only truly implemented in DS9. Anything shown in TOS and TNG technically doesnt involve them, but could be retconned if desired
They first showed up in Season 6 of DS9
More, please.
so section 31 is like cerberus from mass effect right
"You want me on that wall. You need me on that wall."
Please do the Voth species.
Really believe Section 31 is necessary evil!
Klingon Intelligence. Something about covert intelligence seems antithetical to notions of honor.
"In war, nothing is more honorable than victory". - Worf in DS9 episode - Way of the Warrior.
Good quote. But taking that to be true, then Klingon pontification makes them hypocritical. Worse, when they lose, they look pathetic.
@@jt4369 As I am taking my kids through TNG I told them that Klingon honor is a two-edged sword. I suspect that the honor we hear the Klingons talking about brings up the idea of Samauri's, Knights, or whatever - fair play and humanity, based on the ideals of our culture. I suspect Klingon culture allows for fighting fairly, yet defines "fairness" differently than humans. We see some of that in our own cultures. The American ideal ending to a heroic story traditionally is the good guy defeats all the bad guys and rides off into the sunset with the girl. In Far Eastern cultures, like China, the ideal ending is the hero dying standing up with piles of dead bad guys around him with other (living) bad guys afraid to approach the standing corpse, as seen in a lot of Chinese made films in the 60s and 70s. Kor, from the old series and appearing briefly in DS9, said something about, " honor isn't what it used to be". Klingon culture is one of winning battles and, while we may view underhanded means of winning a war as "not quite fair" Klingons probably view victory as the final goal.
@@richardthomas5362 Fair observations. Then the universal translator lost a bit when it was doing its job, haha. And also good point about relativism in the use of language. I suspect that when Klingons use the word honor, in actuality it’s closer to what the Chinese would call ‘face’: social esteem, regardless of the means taken to get there.
By the way, I’m ethnically Chinese and most of us would not include the second clause of my definition of face above. That’s part of the artifice, you see. True honor either no longer exists or only existed in men like Mr. Rogers, Daniel Inoue or maybe persons of dubious origin stories.
For me, I might want the riches associated with I’ll-gotten “honor,” (quote marks deliberate), but internally such glory would be very bitter indeed. In, however, my single purpose was to secure victory, then “honor” is merely a bonus. All this lofty talk of honor only becomes more and more grating to my ears.
This reminds me. Are there any Section 31 Klingon agents?
I have asked the computer to examine your speech patterns. It has determined that you are a highly advanced robot.
Archer looks really depressed @ 2:42
Dude have you *seen* Scott Bakula?
What if Starfleet as a whole was but a facade for Section 31?
what if the man in glasses, future guy and Archer are somehow the same person?
further what if Archer Is/Was a member of Section 31 well before he Assumed a Rank in Starfleet?
along that thought what if all of the crew of NX01 Enterprise are all members of Section 31?
Section 31's charter predated the Federation and was around with MACO
You know, section 31 almost doomed the alpha quadrant. The group of "enhanced humans" predicted that even if cardassia revolted (which it did) they would all still lose to the Dominion, and their predictions seem like they would come true had odo not seen the female changeling with the cure for his people. Had odo perished or had he not ended up on cardassia near the end of the war, the Dominion would have fought down to the last man standing.
You drew Odo with a nose? ;)
Nice video Civilization
Section 31 was formed before the Federation. That means before the Starfleet existed.
Starfleet was created decades before the Federation.
Yes, in 1947 in New Mexico I believe...
A Cool Spin off would be Star Trek the Obsidian Order.
I am curious to know how Section 31 recruited aliens not in the Federation to their cause like they did with the Romulan
You need to watch the excellent British spy series called Spooks, the MI5, British version of the CIA, routinely recruit non Brits into their group due to mutual interests, S31 and the Tal Shiar may have a mutual interest or adversary so it may be that they temporarily work together or it may just be individuals motivated by personal, political or financial reasons.
Can't help wondering what Gene Roddenberry would think about Section 31 being created by showrunners for the Star Trek Prime universe. Would he object? Unless I'm mistaken, he did have utopian ideals about what human beings could accomplish if we put aside our differences and worked together, hence the Original Star Trek series being the most diverse show on television at the time, including a Russian crewmember on the Enterprise during the Cold War :) But it was the 60's. Vietnam, Civil Rights, government upheaval, etc. Maybe he would understand that human beings, even in a science fiction utopia on Earth will still revert to old habits.
I don't think the federation would be able to exist without section 31. Even in the original series and TNG, Starfleet and the federation had suspect morals! They even used the prime directive to justify some of their bad decisions! Roddenberry would have agreed that section 31, would be a necessary organization within the federation! IMHO!
At best he likely would understand the reasoning as to why it exists.
I think he would be okay with it specifically because its a rogue organization with no ties to starfleet beyond a mutual interest in the defense of the federation.
Its was season 2 of Discovery will be about
Star'ree the timelordin intelligence organization one of the most feared organization in history just like tal'shiar, obsidian order and the klingon intelligence.
This sounds like a way to add to the Cannon from a Non Cannon source. Good thing Section 31 doesn't exist.
Should have been called the Klingon Intelligence Learning Legion, or KILL for short. That way it sounds more interesting
Everything has been said on the channel is on point. But he forgot one thing, one crucial but yet fundamental point. Whatever is behind this one crucial point... what about the Droid attack on the wookies???
You can't really fit DISC in between the other shows as it isn't canon, they say it's Prime but not canon there is a difference.
Am I the only one here who thinks that Section 31 were right?
Congratulations!! You are now both Cardassians!
Cardassians or not, fighting back with conspiracy, manipulation, assassinations and disregard for justice and basic rights makes you antithetical to the fundamental ideals of the federation.
What things did they never do?
Section 31 is like having nuclear weapons. A last resort, but a weapon you never deprive yourself of, especially when the enemy is all too eager to use it against you.
Let's not forget, the Dominian, Romulan and Klingons would have all done the same. It was only the Federation who had the the ability of a moment of pause to consider its actions.
No, I'm sure Fascists agree with you.
Hi Civilization Doubt you will read this but I am having a lore dispute who does take me as a good source I've read the trilogy 7 times. The Hobbit 12 times. The Silmarillion 3 times, and alot of the Christopher Tolkien Books. He claims that the Maiar aren't Ainur.
More great work
i can't wait till The Orville starts again.
Yay more trek! Keep em coming!
I didn't know Section 31 had general Zod wording for them🤣
Regardless of anybodies opinions on section 31 their virus saved Starfleet which they are older than. Their also not exactly xenophobic.
Kelvin timeline section 31?
No matter how great the vision of the world... There will always be a shadow
LONG LIVE SECTION 31, ADMIRALS MARCUS AND JELLICO AND ALL THEIR NEFARIOUS WORKS...
Anyone else find Section 31 to be awesome?
Liked the video ... until you said "Discovery". 😒
That is not canon with the other Series and first 10 films.
Yes it is, whether you like it or not.
@@oliverewarthopkins7818 Do your homework, it isn't and legally cannot be. It all has to do with the CBS and Viacom split. It is the reason why the JJ Abrams films had to be in a completely seperate universe, why Star Trek was off TV for so many years, and one of the reasons why Bryan Fuller left the series during development.
Also, the Enterprise that appeared in discovery had to be different (there is an actual legal percentage that has to be different), same with uniforms and everything. The Enterprise was much larger than the canon one, same with the bridge and everything we saw.
Discovery is not canon, and can never be. Unless Viacom and CBS re-merge (which may happen), we will never get a true canon Star Trek series or movie.
@@RantingThespian
STD was a cesspool. No matter merger or not.
They can crow canon all they want, it is an abomination for what ST stood for.
I noticed that many of the comments are strongly against the inclusion of STD.
One suggestion: Distinguish what is classic timeline and what is Kelvin timeline. And preempt with audio and video which you are including beforehand, and why. That might ease tensions and prevent surprises. Also, since STD content will turn up first chronologically, you don’t want to risk viewership so early on, and risk ad revenue potential. I hope that helps.
Only one issue - Discovery is technically prime timeline. I will begrudgingly admit that it is canon, because that's what Paramount says. That doesn't mean I have to like it...
Erinn van Wynsberghe It IS prime timeline, just like EVERY OTHER Star Trek episode that involves time travel and parallel universes.
P. B Amygdala, as opposed to how Discovery ATTEMPTS to have us believe that their version of the universe is the #ActualPrimeUniverse, it is NOT at all. Instead, the glaring adjustments to ship/uniform styling, two issues that can be discussed at a later time, have been far removed from the original canon. Long story short, Discovery(as written), doesn't belong to the #ActualPrimeUniverse. It's ACTUALLY a separate timeline, known as the #kurtzmanuniverse.