You dont want poisons applied in PVE. You get both instant and deadly through deadly brew automatically. You want MH to be able to proc wild strikes and Blackfathom sharpening stone on off hand.
@kYSMIGlolTV yea you right. the tooltip is a bit ambiguous in deadly brew regarding the chance for instant poison to be applied vs when its actually on the weapon. not sure if it has the same rate of application. -- at any rate this is definitely more PVP oriented, but the talent points are great for PVE
@nobruh3468 For sure, planning lots of stuff! We'll definitely be back for phase 2 rogue -- im cooking up a sick warlock build too -- I'll be streaming regularly on Twitch if you ever want to chill or ask me anything! I also play a lot of classic arenas and will be pushing end of season wrath and cataclysm content. Who knows maybe I'll even give the new retail expansion a chance 🤷♂️
@@Huckle777 i can’t speak for pve. But for PvP he is spot on. Way more burst than back stab build. Problem with back stab build is getting kited having quick draw is a game changer. You don’t know what you’re talking about man. Leave this guy alone, he made a wonderful guide
@@nobruh3468 Im a 98 average parse rogue, wsg exalted with 5k honor kills but sure, I dont know what im talking about. Mutilate absolutely is not more burst than backstab. How are you guys this delusional. Mutilate NEEDS tea to still do less damage than backstab. Sure the utility of quick draw is nice but I would rather just kill people in 2-3 globals. The guide literally has misinfo on poison, what bis weapons are but sure lets call it a good guide lmao
This is a good build all around you I’m using it now with, you can honestly get both daggers from BFD and go sub with improved ambush and crit for 490-900 depending on buffs
Sure - if you get the daggers after rolling against half the raid. At 2 raids a week at best not counting issues, scheduling, people dropping in and out...meh, no thanks.
@@russelladams9147I got both daggers like week 2 and our raid one had 3 rogues their drop rate is not that insane bro try getting the epic staff and maybe that logic applies
If you're using deadly brew, you don't need to apply instant poison. The DB rune applies instant poison, which then procs deadly poison. You can i stead use druid windfury or sharpening stones.
i wish you could use double meteor shard but it's a unique item. the other best dagger would be from warsong gulch revered. just want high weapon damage for big mutilates
What other dagger you use besides meteor shard? You made it seem like you use a sword in your main hand but you need 2 daggers to use mutilate so I'm confused there.. also crippling has 30% chance to proc so its better to use that on off hand for max deadly poison applications
How did I make it seem like I use a sword in my main hand, when I said to put meteor shard there. And clearly state you need 2x daggers for mutilate? I would suggest the warsong gulch revered dagger in the offhand. I'm currently using vampiric boot knife in the offhand. Thanks for watching
Also we aren't applying deadly poison in pvp. We don't use deadly brew we use Quickdraw in this guide. The mind numbing poison is primarily to apply the poisoned affect which increase mutilate damage by 20%. The mind numbing effect is also helpful against casters. We already have slow with Quickdraw, so imo min numbing is more valuable unless you really think you can swap poisons pre-fight without your enemy getting too far away.
@@ZorpoTV Is this build predicated on you needing to use Thistle Tea? It seems very expensive to use 30 silver every PvP kill and having to wait five minutes to engage in PvP again. Wouldn't it be more efficient to use Shadowstrike instead of Quick Draw and then use both Mind Numbing and Crippling poison to then restealth in case they range you? You could still deadzone melee and stun casters while also keeping up the pressure. This build of yours only seem to really shine if you use Thistle Tea, which is a shame.
@icebox1954 no you don't need thistle tea, this build is all around the best way to PVP. thistle tea is how to MAXIMIZE BURST. For any build in the entire game thistle tea is the only way to max your burst. But not required.
Epic gloves are best of course. You can also get the 2 piece cobrahn set bonus from pieces other than the gloves, like the belt for example. If venomstrike is your only ranged weapon you should try to get the 2 set bonus. If you have another ranged weapon that gives strength or agility then you don't care about the set bonus.
When you get to level 20 the rogue trainer in orgrimmar will have a quest chain available starting with the "shattered salute". Complete those quests to unlock poisons, and then mind-numbing poison will be available at your rogue class trainer some time between level 20 and 25, don't remember the exact lvl
neither one is a must-have to play this spec at all, but thistle tea definitely is the way to have the biggest burst possible. it has a 5 minute cooldown too, and you won't always need to or even get to use it on everyone. Thanks for watching and your comment!! 🔥
yes for the most part its the same idea, kite and build combo points with gouge and quickdraw, and try to get a couple normal bow/gun shots in too, then when you have 5 combo points and full energy then stun and you should be able to get in 2 big mutilates - if you are able to get mind numbing poison up with a few auto-attacks before you stun then your mutilates will deal 20% increased damage@@andy.bernard i have a couple clips here and on twitch if you need an example
The BFD gun is comparably good, but if you get lucky procs from the bow the bow can be better. Using the bow is more of a gamble but can pay off. It's also a lot easier to get the bow than the gun. Between the eyes isn't affect by weapon damage, but can cause the bow to go off, so the only way to get lucky big hits on between the eyes is to use the bow
I think the gun from BFD would be more worth it if you have the bis Leatherworking gloves instead of the cobrahn 2 piece set. When most people made bis lists I don't think they really considered the fact that Quickdraw and between the eyes can cause the bow effect to proc
And also, gear wise if we have 2% hit from set and gloves it means we dont have to spec 5 in hit for pvp, and use the 3 talent points for more mutilate dmg
Absolutely. I'll be doing this when I get to that point, but it's a bit of rng and time to get there. Can't wait til then. I'll probably post a short update at that point. i thought about mentioning this in the video but didn't want to overcomplicate things.
@lilsxnty I would leave 3 points in precision and put the other 3 free points into subtlety tree for increased backstab damage. This will boost mutilate damage more than the offhand damage talent. Great for PVP. If you're focused on PVE I would go more into the assassination tree, probably increased crit since we aren't using mutilate or backstab in PVE
for PVE I would even consider keeping the talents the same but instead of using blackfathom sharpening stone (+2% hit) on offhand maybe to use the +3 weapon damage stone since you would have the 2% hit from gear already. I think +10% offhand damage might outvalue the extra crit rating from assassin talent - especially with +3 damage stone - but this is all in theory @@lils4nti
Yes they do, read mutilate description. They all affect mutilate unless stated otherwise. The one talent says it boosts backstabbing damage when "behind the target" so I don't know how that part translates into mutilate.
warsong gulch revered dagger. if not, use the highest damage weapon doesn't put any damage-over-time effects. make sure you look at damage and not dps, because that's what is going to make mutilate hit hard.
It's close. it's the only way to proc lucky big hits with between the eyes, and its a lot easier to get to start off with, but the raid weapons are also good. Especially if you don't have the 2 piece cobrahn set. I actually recently got rid of the venomstrike bow and cobrahn gear on my rogue. Instead I'm using the void touched gloves and ranged weapon with +5 strength (I'd prefer the 6 agi gun) since i no longer have the venom set bonus. Another thing someone mentioned to be mindful of as a rogue using this build is the 17 ranged attack power crossbow from BFD. Apparently it increases the damage of Quickdraw and between the eyes by a lot!
The gear from the raid you'll hit bigger on mutilate but with the venomstrike bow and wailing caverns gear you'll be hitting bigger stuns and ranged attacks - hope that makes sense! There's lots of ways to gear up for this build. It's very versatile in general.
dunno if creating a build around maximising random weapon procs is better than maximising ability damage. Can the procs crit? If not then this is useless
Yes they can crit, and the build isn't "made around the proccs" more like the proccs fit into the build better than anything else. I don't really know what could be better for mutilate than a dagger with biggest flat damage available plus a random fire proc that doesn't break cc... lol. There is multiple viable gear configurations for this build, but you must prioritize high weapon damage without damage over time effects.
Playing lots of mutilate and backstab set ups. I believe backstab is the superior 1v1 build for ganking. Ambush, backstab,backstab, usually 100/0 most targets before they can respond. Mutas downfall is needing the poision applied to the target before you see the big numbers. Meaning the first muta for me would crit for 220ish and my bs hit for crit 350. Muta IMO is the best pve questing spec as well. Open with BtE and the 20 energy is back before the mob gets to you. Great vid and thanks!
I think there's probably zero chance that bow is better than the epic crossbow if you manage to get it as a rogue (which I did). My quick draw and between the eyes crits absolutely shreds cloth wearers. Would be happy to be proven wrong though
That's definitely something to consider - Great idea! - that attack power must be huge. A lot of these ranged weapons interact with those abilities more than I think people considered before the game launched. I would not roll for that crossbow against any hunters though, probably one of the more unlikely weapons to acquire as a rogue right now. Personally I just got the epic leatherworking gloves and dropped the cobrahn set piece, so I'm going to be using a ranged weapon with big stat to help my overall attack power for bigger mutilates AND ranged attacks. I think I'm going to try to get that crossbow too just to see. The power added to ranged attacks might outvalue the 6 agi. Might be a sleeper bis spec good call man!! Thanks for watching!
honestly it's hard to say there's anything better for raiding considering auto attacks are such a huge part of our damage and they need very high hit rating to never miss. More auto attacks also means more poison applications from deadly brew in PVE - there's not any gear now with expertise so maximizing hit rating is the only way to truly maximize poison application - similar to raiding asassination spec in other xpacs where hit/expertise cap is the main stat priority.
Yeah the only reason I actually started to be interested in this video, friggin hate that kid. He’s obvi better than me at the game but annoying as all hell
Ummmmmmm FYI, u don't need poisons AT ALL while using Deadly Brew. Applying Instant Poison isn't just worse than using sharpening stones, its COMPLETELY pointless. When you have wild strikes on main hand and a sharpening stone on offhand, if you read the description of Deadly Brew, it literally says "If your weapon doesn't have a poison applied, it has a chance to trigger Instant Poison ***as if Instant Poison were applied***." The tooltip is very clear. Poisons should only be applied while using Deadly Brew if you want to use Crippling or Mind-Numbing instead of Instant, the Instant Poison (+Deadly Poison) procs are built in, so use a Sharpening stone on top..... As for the PvP build, ur dead on m8, good shit, u might wanna switch mind-numbing out for crippling depending on what you're facing, 2 slows is better than 1 vs melee or hunter, especially when ur other slow is a 6 sec CD.
Build works fine for pvp but it tanks the hell out of your damage in pve. Tested both the assassin build and combat build and i lose about 10-15 dps. Which doesn't sound like a lot but at lvl 25 its huge.
I'm getting ready to run BFD after this reset. Will be logging! I don't have bis but i have decent gear. I appreciate the input. I'm wondering about how effective any other build can be without going full precision since we're relying heavily on deadly poison.
@ZorpoTV the extra combo point that ruthlessness and the 25 energy from relentless strikes just smooths out the rotation and the 45% uptime increas on slice and dice makes it so your not using your combo points so often on s@d but more so on envenom instead. The burst from the other build is nice but it hurts on sustain. The burst of the build you use is good for fights like Ghamoo-ra and Gelihast however.
@ZorpoTV yea I don't blame you for not wanting to constant repec and if you find pvp your focus do that. Being 2nd in dps is a good place to be in so if it works it works thats really all that matters. Just was brining in some perspective from the pve world is all. Amyways keep up the good work and the quality content.
Muti damage is pretty close to backstab tbh I'm critting for 250-300 consistently while only costing 40 energy. Def a pvp only thing and only if you want shadowstrike, fun for wpvp and jumping people
Mutilate does more damage than backstabbing by far and has 0 positioning requirement. Your backstabbing is also probably boosted by talent points I haven't even taken here because I went full hit to not miss gouge etc. Don't forget to factor in the 20% increased damage when targets are poisoned, and the 10% increased off-hand damage from talents here.
Also FYI you have to sacrifice both mutilate AND Quickdraw to play backstab/shadowstrike. Might be nice to have a teleport from stealth, but when you're caught out and don't have vanish your just going to get kited forever
@@ZorpoTV do you know if there's a way to make a macro that allows me to use quick draw and then between the eyes in a cast sequence? I've tried just about everything and can't get it to work.
i admit im one of those filthy riposte enjoyer, but i'm also playing my rogue to tank on a pve realm so the things your builds provide are not things immediately relevant for me.
Chipped bite of serakiss is 29-55 damage range vs meteor shard at 23-43 - however its poison dot wouldnt work for the guide's gouge playstyle @@ZorpoTV
warcraft logs doesn't show talent builds. all top rogues are using deadly brew (FOR PVE) which is going to look like assassination with damage from deadly poisons and envenom. my rogue shows as assassin spec on there too but I've used these talents every single run... I'll have some update logs today with much higher parse since I have all gear slots filled up now and replaced the engineering helm with 0 attack power to one with 24 attack power. I'll be running BFD today after the 10 am reset so I can get War Drums too.
warsong gulch revered dagger @leobleon2653 until then, whatever has the highest weapon damage to maximize mutilate, even if it is less dps than another faster hitting weapon. For this playstyle best not to use a dagger that applies any bleed or damage over time effects because it will break crowd control abilities like gouge.
You fundamentally don't understand how mutilate works so let me break it down for you. You can't just say mutilate is 200% weapon damage (100% wep dmg from each weapon) and make a complete comparison because the offhand damage is far reduced. Also, that 10% offhand damage only gets added to the offhand so you can't compare its % to backstab at face value. When taking at least 1 points in Opportunity (can easily take more depending on build choice) BOTH weapons of mutilate get 10% more damage and this applies when attacking from the front as well (this has been tested and confirmed). This 10% increase applies to all of backstab as well. You are completely wrong in thinking the offhand talent is good. It's over 2x worse than just taking a point in Opportunity, since it's 10% to BOTH weapons.. This is so basic to understand, Idk how you haven't realized it. To recommend off hand talent over Opportunity and claim you have more mutilate damage than backstab is just so outrageous I cant even believe you are that dumb. The mental gymnastics and delusion displayed to try making fake math to satisfy your ego and false take is just absurd. It's common knowledge and easily testable ( Ive tested the numbers myself many times) to prove that backstab is more damage.
You really deleted my comment that completely disproved your take. Hilarious. Im almost convinced this whole video is meme ragebait at this point because I can't believe someone would think thats how the additional damage adds up.
@Huckle777 ??? What comment. Lol I did the math on mutilate vs backstab and I don't really understand what you're going on about or why you keep coming back to my video triggered since the day it came out
@alistairbolden6340 how is disarm an instant win... you'll still get owned by casters. And if you disarm me I'll just press evasion or throw a sleep dust at you until the disarm is over. Disarm is a very limited win condition to be playing around.
Slice and dice plus evasion is bis, yes. Rage doesn't matter much when you dodge 99% attacks. Then build combo points up and ready to lock down with a stun nd full energy bar by the time evasion is going down.
@yannikbossmeyer they will only be able to press it maybe 2x during your evasion. Better than getting hit by so many other abilities honestly. You're probably going to dodge something once every 5 seconds anyways without evasion - so theyll be proccing overpower anyway - Trust me when I say using evasion is better than not against warrior. You're going to live a lot longer with evasion up. And while the warrior is getting rage you will also be farming slice and dice, combo points and a full energy bar.
Tbh mutilate doesnt do more dmg than backstab but it generates more CP, thats it basicaly. The guide is nice but i literaly 2-3 shot ppl with ambush openers + backstab without any thistle tea needed in the rotation
@Huckle777 have fun on backstab! I'll take any 1v1 challenger. You'll be pretty gimped without Quickdraw, and mutilate Def does more damage. Kinda strange to say outlaw Sabre isn't available when it is.
@@Huckle777 don't forget to factor in the 20% increased mutilate damage against poisoned targets + the 10% increased offhand damage given by talents in this build. I'm sorry but mutilate is king.
Bro said to put posion on mh in pve 😂 yeah fufk that windfury prock bro so smart ? And the pvp build is the best but you just need to spend 25 silver per kill for it to work using a thisel tea you sir are a clown not payo but u had some good info as well so i cant hate to much
You don't need thistle tea to kill someone. You just need it to do the maximum burst. Plenty of killing while it's on cooldown :) just need to manage your energy carefully. Also in PVE you don't have windfury available yet. We have wild strikes from druids. I'm not a huge pve player. But i wanted to include some info. Any mistakes have been corrected in the description. Thanks for stopping by!
@@ZorpoTV wild strikes is essentially wind fury bro and not to have it in raid is so bad almost stupid not only that but u actually want sharping atone on main hand if no wild strikes not poison and something like you said on off hand to make the poison work
@LewReviews I'm not running mutilate in pve so you don't need to have the poison in offhand. As many have mentioned the best thing to do in BFD is wild strikes on MH and blackfathom sharpen stone on OH. My apologies for leaving that out of the video. I rushed a lot of the PVE sections as that isn't really a major focus of mine but wanted to address all players in the guide. Luckily we have the comments and description to clear it up. I'll probably be getting crap about that for the rest of my life 😅
My logs are not a good reflection of the build. Haven't had any luck with gear until the last run got 3 pieces. Next run I'll be logging and actually trying to parse - going from no neck or trinket slot and using green dagger in offhand to now having bis weapons in both hands and fully geared - and went from 0 attack power helm to +24 atk power too so really massive upgrades - not full bis yet though. I spent more time doing pvp than getting fully geared up and trying to parse in the raid, but I'm finally getting some pretty good raid gear. That's not a big priority for me, I just wanted to include PVE Runes in the guide and make it known my thoughts on why I believe this build is viable if not bis for PVE at least on certain bosses right now.
Na, backstab is way better than mutilate. Outlaw sabre isn't even in the game for ally. Misinfo on applying poison in raids. Venomstrike is garbage for pvp you would be way better off using wsg bow or raptors end. Overall very bad video kek Any new rogues that need advice, please don't listen to this clown, I can answer any pve/pvp questions you have. This guy gave out so much pure misinfo and bad recommendations its actually wild
www.wowhead.com/classic/item=16886/outlaw-sabre I'm literally using this in pve. You're trippin. And mutilate DOES do much more damage. Even without factoring in +20% damage to poisoned targets and the +10% offhand damage talent were taking here.
@@ZorpoTV Only for horde. By taking the offhand talent you miss out on opportunity for flat 20% more dmg. This gets applied while in front as well for mutilate. Its like you dont know anything about rogue but insist on making false info videos. You are flat out wrong in saying mutilate does more dmg. I have compared these numbers myself. I crit for about 350-390 with backstab and mutilate barely hits 300, with poison proc it can go near 350. Do the simple math. Not to mention Mutilate simply uses too much energy.
by taking increased backstab damage you sacrifice 5% hit cap, so you won't be landing many gouges or getting many resets off. all you can do is press backstab, vanish and shadowstrike. after that, you're done especially if your enemy is able to get some distance or heal. @@Huckle777
I can feel the seething anger coming from your keyboard. It's almost like you know my build is better, but you'd have to admit you've been playing it all wrong this whole time!@@Huckle777
@@ZorpoTV LOL only one seething is you for being called out for making shit content. Im just frustrated you are putting out false info but really could care less. Youre just a bad rogue its simple.
You dont want poisons applied in PVE. You get both instant and deadly through deadly brew automatically. You want MH to be able to proc wild strikes and Blackfathom sharpening stone on off hand.
thanks. thats definitely better in BFD if you have a druid and can afford the stones. I'll add that to the description.
@@ZorpoTVdeadly brew automatically gives your weapons instant poison so in the overworld you don’t need to apply poisons either
@@ZorpoTV for dungeons, sharpening stones will end up being better (since deadly brew will be applying the instant poison anyway)
@kYSMIGlolTV yea you right. the tooltip is a bit ambiguous in deadly brew regarding the chance for instant poison to be applied vs when its actually on the weapon. not sure if it has the same rate of application. -- at any rate this is definitely more PVP oriented, but the talent points are great for PVE
I proc way more often with the poisons on maybe just me
This is the guide I’ve been looking for
that means a lot thank you!
please keep the content coming :) @@ZorpoTV
@nobruh3468 For sure, planning lots of stuff! We'll definitely be back for phase 2 rogue -- im cooking up a sick warlock build too -- I'll be streaming regularly on Twitch if you ever want to chill or ask me anything! I also play a lot of classic arenas and will be pushing end of season wrath and cataclysm content. Who knows maybe I'll even give the new retail expansion a chance 🤷♂️
@@Huckle777 i can’t speak for pve. But for PvP he is spot on. Way more burst than back stab build. Problem with back stab build is getting kited having quick draw is a game changer. You don’t know what you’re talking about man. Leave this guy alone, he made a wonderful guide
@@nobruh3468 Im a 98 average parse rogue, wsg exalted with 5k honor kills but sure, I dont know what im talking about.
Mutilate absolutely is not more burst than backstab. How are you guys this delusional. Mutilate NEEDS tea to still do less damage than backstab. Sure the utility of quick draw is nice but I would rather just kill people in 2-3 globals.
The guide literally has misinfo on poison, what bis weapons are but sure lets call it a good guide lmao
This is a good build all around you I’m using it now with, you can honestly get both daggers from BFD and go sub with improved ambush and crit for 490-900 depending on buffs
Sure - if you get the daggers after rolling against half the raid. At 2 raids a week at best not counting issues, scheduling, people dropping in and out...meh, no thanks.
half the raid? i never had any competition rolling on the daggers.@@russelladams9147
@@russelladams9147I got both daggers like week 2 and our raid one had 3 rogues their drop rate is not that insane bro try getting the epic staff and maybe that logic applies
??? Only rogues uses the main hand daggers, how many rogues do you have in your raid group?
@@formatomi all you need is main hand from turtle boss and sword off naga and you’ll clap go combat too
If you're using deadly brew, you don't need to apply instant poison. The DB rune applies instant poison, which then procs deadly poison. You can i stead use druid windfury or sharpening stones.
Thanks, it's been said 100 times and it's also in the description
Very good guide tbh, are we sure on the weapons for PvP, just double meteorshard?
i wish you could use double meteor shard but it's a unique item. the other best dagger would be from warsong gulch revered. just want high weapon damage for big mutilates
What other dagger you use besides meteor shard? You made it seem like you use a sword in your main hand but you need 2 daggers to use mutilate so I'm confused there.. also crippling has 30% chance to proc so its better to use that on off hand for max deadly poison applications
How did I make it seem like I use a sword in my main hand, when I said to put meteor shard there. And clearly state you need 2x daggers for mutilate? I would suggest the warsong gulch revered dagger in the offhand. I'm currently using vampiric boot knife in the offhand. Thanks for watching
Also we aren't applying deadly poison in pvp. We don't use deadly brew we use Quickdraw in this guide. The mind numbing poison is primarily to apply the poisoned affect which increase mutilate damage by 20%. The mind numbing effect is also helpful against casters. We already have slow with Quickdraw, so imo min numbing is more valuable unless you really think you can swap poisons pre-fight without your enemy getting too far away.
@@ZorpoTV Is this build predicated on you needing to use Thistle Tea? It seems very expensive to use 30 silver every PvP kill and having to wait five minutes to engage in PvP again. Wouldn't it be more efficient to use Shadowstrike instead of Quick Draw and then use both Mind Numbing and Crippling poison to then restealth in case they range you?
You could still deadzone melee and stun casters while also keeping up the pressure. This build of yours only seem to really shine if you use Thistle Tea, which is a shame.
@icebox1954 no you don't need thistle tea, this build is all around the best way to PVP. thistle tea is how to MAXIMIZE BURST. For any build in the entire game thistle tea is the only way to max your burst. But not required.
@@ZorpoTV Okay, thanks. I'll give this build a try without Thistle Tea.
So don’t use the which gloves? Use gloves of the fang over them?
Epic gloves are best of course. You can also get the 2 piece cobrahn set bonus from pieces other than the gloves, like the belt for example. If venomstrike is your only ranged weapon you should try to get the 2 set bonus. If you have another ranged weapon that gives strength or agility then you don't care about the set bonus.
@@ZorpoTV thanks fir answering :)
where do you learn mind numbing poison, ?
When you get to level 20 the rogue trainer in orgrimmar will have a quest chain available starting with the "shattered salute". Complete those quests to unlock poisons, and then mind-numbing poison will be available at your rogue class trainer some time between level 20 and 25, don't remember the exact lvl
thanks , i made the quest so i have the others poisons by strangly my trainer doesnt want to learn it to me@@ZorpoTV
@@ZorpoTV you need lvl 100 in poisons
@@HL-pu7hh thanks for clarifying
This is a great guide, other than the fact thistle tea is like 50s a cup and magic dust is 1g each lol.
neither one is a must-have to play this spec at all, but thistle tea definitely is the way to have the biggest burst possible. it has a 5 minute cooldown too, and you won't always need to or even get to use it on everyone.
Thanks for watching and your comment!! 🔥
@@ZorpoTV so would the rota be the same without the tea?
yes for the most part its the same idea, kite and build combo points with gouge and quickdraw, and try to get a couple normal bow/gun shots in too, then when you have 5 combo points and full energy then stun and you should be able to get in 2 big mutilates - if you are able to get mind numbing poison up with a few auto-attacks before you stun then your mutilates will deal 20% increased damage@@andy.bernard i have a couple clips here and on twitch if you need an example
How would you rate BFD gun vs the WC bow for PVP?
The BFD gun is comparably good, but if you get lucky procs from the bow the bow can be better. Using the bow is more of a gamble but can pay off. It's also a lot easier to get the bow than the gun. Between the eyes isn't affect by weapon damage, but can cause the bow to go off, so the only way to get lucky big hits on between the eyes is to use the bow
I think the gun from BFD would be more worth it if you have the bis Leatherworking gloves instead of the cobrahn 2 piece set. When most people made bis lists I don't think they really considered the fact that Quickdraw and between the eyes can cause the bow effect to proc
BFD gun 100% for PVE though
And also, gear wise if we have 2% hit from set and gloves it means we dont have to spec 5 in hit for pvp, and use the 3 talent points for more mutilate dmg
Absolutely. I'll be doing this when I get to that point, but it's a bit of rng and time to get there. Can't wait til then. I'll probably post a short update at that point. i thought about mentioning this in the video but didn't want to overcomplicate things.
where can I spend those points when I have the 2% of hit of gear?@@ZorpoTV
@lilsxnty I would leave 3 points in precision and put the other 3 free points into subtlety tree for increased backstab damage. This will boost mutilate damage more than the offhand damage talent. Great for PVP. If you're focused on PVE I would go more into the assassination tree, probably increased crit since we aren't using mutilate or backstab in PVE
tysm!@@ZorpoTV
for PVE I would even consider keeping the talents the same but instead of using blackfathom sharpening stone (+2% hit) on offhand maybe to use the +3 weapon damage stone since you would have the 2% hit from gear already. I think +10% offhand damage might outvalue the extra crit rating from assassin talent - especially with +3 damage stone - but this is all in theory @@lils4nti
Nice video mam . Gg thnx for tiene información. Only havr one question. Allí talents of rogue afect Backstab , afect mutilate to??
can read? ok!
Yes they do, read mutilate description. They all affect mutilate unless stated otherwise. The one talent says it boosts backstabbing damage when "behind the target" so I don't know how that part translates into mutilate.
whats the best off hand dagger to use with this?
warsong gulch revered dagger. if not, use the highest damage weapon doesn't put any damage-over-time effects. make sure you look at damage and not dps, because that's what is going to make mutilate hit hard.
Are you saying this pvp gear better than the gear in the raid ?
It's close. it's the only way to proc lucky big hits with between the eyes, and its a lot easier to get to start off with, but the raid weapons are also good. Especially if you don't have the 2 piece cobrahn set. I actually recently got rid of the venomstrike bow and cobrahn gear on my rogue. Instead I'm using the void touched gloves and ranged weapon with +5 strength (I'd prefer the 6 agi gun) since i no longer have the venom set bonus.
Another thing someone mentioned to be mindful of as a rogue using this build is the 17 ranged attack power crossbow from BFD. Apparently it increases the damage of Quickdraw and between the eyes by a lot!
The gear from the raid you'll hit bigger on mutilate but with the venomstrike bow and wailing caverns gear you'll be hitting bigger stuns and ranged attacks - hope that makes sense!
There's lots of ways to gear up for this build. It's very versatile in general.
0:55 Oh that's an easy one, don't be french.
Is magic dust baned in bgs ?
I cant use it 🥺
Have to be standing still
no, it's useable.
Man wonderful video! Love that you are challenging the norm. Though I saying to put instant poison on both weapons concerns me.
check the description/other comments. thanks for watching and the positive words!
Will do, thank you.@@ZorpoTV
dunno if creating a build around maximising random weapon procs is better than maximising ability damage. Can the procs crit? If not then this is useless
Yes they can crit, and the build isn't "made around the proccs" more like the proccs fit into the build better than anything else. I don't really know what could be better for mutilate than a dagger with biggest flat damage available plus a random fire proc that doesn't break cc... lol. There is multiple viable gear configurations for this build, but you must prioritize high weapon damage without damage over time effects.
@@ZorpoTV i guess sure if you're planning to Gouge someone every fight.
I don't know what to say... If you don't want to gouge, then play another build or another class? Thanks for your comment.@@brazzledazzle-o9w
@@ZorpoTV lol ok "if you dont gouge maybe play a different class" haha ok bro, thanks for the advice. 🤡
no problem thanks for comment!@@brazzledazzle-o9w
No mutilate in the PVE rotation?
No we're using saber Slash in PVE. Mutilate only for PVP.
Playing lots of mutilate and backstab set ups. I believe backstab is the superior 1v1 build for ganking. Ambush, backstab,backstab, usually 100/0 most targets before they can respond. Mutas downfall is needing the poision applied to the target before you see the big numbers. Meaning the first muta for me would crit for 220ish and my bs hit for crit 350. Muta IMO is the best pve questing spec as well. Open with BtE and the 20 energy is back before the mob gets to you. Great vid and thanks!
great vid man !
Thank you so much for coming
I think there's probably zero chance that bow is better than the epic crossbow if you manage to get it as a rogue (which I did). My quick draw and between the eyes crits absolutely shreds cloth wearers. Would be happy to be proven wrong though
That's definitely something to consider - Great idea! - that attack power must be huge. A lot of these ranged weapons interact with those abilities more than I think people considered before the game launched.
I would not roll for that crossbow against any hunters though, probably one of the more unlikely weapons to acquire as a rogue right now.
Personally I just got the epic leatherworking gloves and dropped the cobrahn set piece, so I'm going to be using a ranged weapon with big stat to help my overall attack power for bigger mutilates AND ranged attacks. I think I'm going to try to get that crossbow too just to see. The power added to ranged attacks might outvalue the 6 agi. Might be a sleeper bis spec good call man!! Thanks for watching!
Of course not if you take this from a hunter you're a twat haha. Luckily I do guild runs and our hunter had it :P@@ZorpoTV
this build is godly in pvp but talents need to be changed for optimally raiding
honestly it's hard to say there's anything better for raiding considering auto attacks are such a huge part of our damage and they need very high hit rating to never miss. More auto attacks also means more poison applications from deadly brew in PVE - there's not any gear now with expertise so maximizing hit rating is the only way to truly maximize poison application - similar to raiding asassination spec in other xpacs where hit/expertise cap is the main stat priority.
raiding suux
I'm so glad he ripped on Payo because honestly fek that clown. xD
Yeah the only reason I actually started to be interested in this video, friggin hate that kid. He’s obvi better than me at the game but annoying as all hell
Ummmmmmm FYI, u don't need poisons AT ALL while using Deadly Brew. Applying Instant Poison isn't just worse than using sharpening stones, its COMPLETELY pointless. When you have wild strikes on main hand and a sharpening stone on offhand, if you read the description of Deadly Brew, it literally says "If your weapon doesn't have a poison applied, it has a chance to trigger Instant Poison ***as if Instant Poison were applied***." The tooltip is very clear. Poisons should only be applied while using Deadly Brew if you want to use Crippling or Mind-Numbing instead of Instant, the Instant Poison (+Deadly Poison) procs are built in, so use a Sharpening stone on top..... As for the PvP build, ur dead on m8, good shit, u might wanna switch mind-numbing out for crippling depending on what you're facing, 2 slows is better than 1 vs melee or hunter, especially when ur other slow is a 6 sec CD.
well he should have taken his first sentence to heart😂
Yea this is more pvp oriented but tried to include some pve info. Cleared up the poisons in the description. Thanks for watching!
😬nice editing 😬nice mind numbing poisons 😬nice bow 😬nice tea spec 😬nice pve poisons (kinda fixed) 😬insane 2 piece set 😬im red pilled now
Thanks for your help with the algorithm, king
Build works fine for pvp but it tanks the hell out of your damage in pve. Tested both the assassin build and combat build and i lose about 10-15 dps. Which doesn't sound like a lot but at lvl 25 its huge.
I'm getting ready to run BFD after this reset. Will be logging! I don't have bis but i have decent gear. I appreciate the input. I'm wondering about how effective any other build can be without going full precision since we're relying heavily on deadly poison.
@ZorpoTV the extra combo point that ruthlessness and the 25 energy from relentless strikes just smooths out the rotation and the 45% uptime increas on slice and dice makes it so your not using your combo points so often on s@d but more so on envenom instead. The burst from the other build is nice but it hurts on sustain. The burst of the build you use is good for fights like Ghamoo-ra and Gelihast however.
@ZorpoTV yea I don't blame you for not wanting to constant repec and if you find pvp your focus do that. Being 2nd in dps is a good place to be in so if it works it works thats really all that matters. Just was brining in some perspective from the pve world is all. Amyways keep up the good work and the quality content.
Muti damage is pretty close to backstab tbh I'm critting for 250-300 consistently while only costing 40 energy. Def a pvp only thing and only if you want shadowstrike, fun for wpvp and jumping people
Mutilate does more damage than backstabbing by far and has 0 positioning requirement. Your backstabbing is also probably boosted by talent points I haven't even taken here because I went full hit to not miss gouge etc. Don't forget to factor in the 20% increased damage when targets are poisoned, and the 10% increased off-hand damage from talents here.
Also FYI you have to sacrifice both mutilate AND Quickdraw to play backstab/shadowstrike. Might be nice to have a teleport from stealth, but when you're caught out and don't have vanish your just going to get kited forever
@@ZorpoTV do you know if there's a way to make a macro that allows me to use quick draw and then between the eyes in a cast sequence? I've tried just about everything and can't get it to work.
@@svviftghost
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=20 quickdraw, between the eyes
@@ZorpoTV is that one line?
subbed pal keep it up .
Much appreciated
i admit im one of those filthy riposte enjoyer, but i'm also playing my rogue to tank on a pve realm so the things your builds provide are not things immediately relevant for me.
Glad to hear not everyone is playing the exact same builds. That's part of the fun of SOD. Thanks for stopping by and dropping a comment!
Love the video
How about a rogue tabk guide
man the dagger from BFD is better than the meteoir shard!
No it's not. Both daggers have lower weapon damage and don't have a fireblast proc. We're going for big mutilates in pvp, not dps.
Chipped bite of serakiss is 29-55 damage range vs meteor shard at 23-43 - however its poison dot wouldnt work for the guide's gouge playstyle @@ZorpoTV
@@ZorpoTV Chipped bite does less dmg than meteor shard? Are you braindead?
@@DegenerateNFT exactly
But let you have the mutilate damage bonus if your on weapon poisons dont proc, its synergy
Just look at warcraft logs, everyone use assassination spec for BFD, this combat spec can't compete. It will be good at lvl 40 though! :P
warcraft logs doesn't show talent builds. all top rogues are using deadly brew (FOR PVE) which is going to look like assassination with damage from deadly poisons and envenom. my rogue shows as assassin spec on there too but I've used these talents every single run... I'll have some update logs today with much higher parse since I have all gear slots filled up now and replaced the engineering helm with 0 attack power to one with 24 attack power. I'll be running BFD today after the 10 am reset so I can get War Drums too.
@@ZorpoTV Yeah, if you can show me logs then I’ll believe you:) Gonna try your spec today to see if I do better.
Please let me know what you think!
sound logic - giving it a shot... will let you know
@@hazardpay8560 glad to hear it let me know if you have any questions or need any help!
warsong gulch revered dagger @leobleon2653 until then, whatever has the highest weapon damage to maximize mutilate, even if it is less dps than another faster hitting weapon. For this playstyle best not to use a dagger that applies any bleed or damage over time effects because it will break crowd control abilities like gouge.
** Please read the description for more information regarding PVE Rotation and Weapon Poisons! -- Thank you all for watching!
You fundamentally don't understand how mutilate works so let me break it down for you. You can't just say mutilate is 200% weapon damage (100% wep dmg from each weapon) and make a complete comparison because the offhand damage is far reduced. Also, that 10% offhand damage only gets added to the offhand so you can't compare its % to backstab at face value.
When taking at least 1 points in Opportunity (can easily take more depending on build choice) BOTH weapons of mutilate get 10% more damage and this applies when attacking from the front as well (this has been tested and confirmed). This 10% increase applies to all of backstab as well.
You are completely wrong in thinking the offhand talent is good. It's over 2x worse than just taking a point in Opportunity, since it's 10% to BOTH weapons.. This is so basic to understand, Idk how you haven't realized it.
To recommend off hand talent over Opportunity and claim you have more mutilate damage than backstab is just so outrageous I cant even believe you are that dumb.
The mental gymnastics and delusion displayed to try making fake math to satisfy your ego and false take is just absurd.
It's common knowledge and easily testable ( Ive tested the numbers myself many times) to prove that backstab is more damage.
You really deleted my comment that completely disproved your take. Hilarious. Im almost convinced this whole video is meme ragebait at this point because I can't believe someone would think thats how the additional damage adds up.
@Huckle777 ??? What comment. Lol I did the math on mutilate vs backstab and I don't really understand what you're going on about or why you keep coming back to my video triggered since the day it came out
Tank rogue build is really the strongest SOD build. No one is running weapon chains so disarm = instant win.
@alistairbolden6340 how is disarm an instant win... you'll still get owned by casters. And if you disarm me I'll just press evasion or throw a sleep dust at you until the disarm is over.
Disarm is a very limited win condition to be playing around.
I don't know how anyone watches Payo. Literal subhuman begging 24/7
He's very entertaining! I just think I have his build beat here. and I had a good chuckle when I saw his riposte spec xD I don't know about that one.
Mutilate is turbo trash compared to the backstab build. 20 less energy, roughly around same damage if not more and you get shadowstrike
Yea this guy is fighting me in comments insisting mutilate is better when it outright is not. Total clown lmfao
@@Huckle777 I'm pretty sure he doesn't know that backstab gains 48 bonus damage and thinks it just does 150% damage.
lets apply snd vs warriors and give them even more rage😂
Slice and dice plus evasion is bis, yes. Rage doesn't matter much when you dodge 99% attacks. Then build combo points up and ready to lock down with a stun nd full energy bar by the time evasion is going down.
Never use evasion against Warriors..
@@yannikbossmeyer 🤣
@@ZorpoTV for real, they get overpower proccs and will slap the shit out of you 😂
@yannikbossmeyer they will only be able to press it maybe 2x during your evasion. Better than getting hit by so many other abilities honestly. You're probably going to dodge something once every 5 seconds anyways without evasion - so theyll be proccing overpower anyway - Trust me when I say using evasion is better than not against warrior. You're going to live a lot longer with evasion up. And while the warrior is getting rage you will also be farming slice and dice, combo points and a full energy bar.
Boy you broke
ok xd
subed
Tbh mutilate doesnt do more dmg than backstab but it generates more CP, thats it basicaly. The guide is nice but i literaly 2-3 shot ppl with ambush openers + backstab without any thistle tea needed in the rotation
Please read both tooltip for mutilate and backstab and do a little math.
Gee lets see, my backstabs crit for about 350 for 40 energy, my mutilate crits for about 350 for 60 energy. Wonder which is better. @@ZorpoTV
@@Huckle777 www.wowhead.com/classic/item=16886/outlaw-sabre
@Huckle777 have fun on backstab! I'll take any 1v1 challenger. You'll be pretty gimped without Quickdraw, and mutilate Def does more damage. Kinda strange to say outlaw Sabre isn't available when it is.
@@Huckle777 don't forget to factor in the 20% increased mutilate damage against poisoned targets + the 10% increased offhand damage given by talents in this build. I'm sorry but mutilate is king.
Bro said to put posion on mh in pve 😂 yeah fufk that windfury prock bro so smart ? And the pvp build is the best but you just need to spend 25 silver per kill for it to work using a thisel tea you sir are a clown not payo but u had some good info as well so i cant hate to much
You don't need thistle tea to kill someone. You just need it to do the maximum burst. Plenty of killing while it's on cooldown :) just need to manage your energy carefully. Also in PVE you don't have windfury available yet. We have wild strikes from druids. I'm not a huge pve player. But i wanted to include some info. Any mistakes have been corrected in the description. Thanks for stopping by!
@@ZorpoTV wild strikes is essentially wind fury bro and not to have it in raid is so bad almost stupid not only that but u actually want sharping atone on main hand if no wild strikes not poison and something like you said on off hand to make the poison work
@LewReviews I'm not running mutilate in pve so you don't need to have the poison in offhand. As many have mentioned the best thing to do in BFD is wild strikes on MH and blackfathom sharpen stone on OH. My apologies for leaving that out of the video. I rushed a lot of the PVE sections as that isn't really a major focus of mine but wanted to address all players in the guide. Luckily we have the comments and description to clear it up. I'll probably be getting crap about that for the rest of my life 😅
Could do without trolling Payo.. but good guide. ty
LOL payo is a clown wym
Checked your logs, wasnt impressed.
Nice video tho 👍🏻
My logs are not a good reflection of the build. Haven't had any luck with gear until the last run got 3 pieces. Next run I'll be logging and actually trying to parse - going from no neck or trinket slot and using green dagger in offhand to now having bis weapons in both hands and fully geared - and went from 0 attack power helm to +24 atk power too so really massive upgrades - not full bis yet though. I spent more time doing pvp than getting fully geared up and trying to parse in the raid, but I'm finally getting some pretty good raid gear. That's not a big priority for me, I just wanted to include PVE Runes in the guide and make it known my thoughts on why I believe this build is viable if not bis for PVE at least on certain bosses right now.
THAT GEAR SUCKS ..
Na, backstab is way better than mutilate. Outlaw sabre isn't even in the game for ally. Misinfo on applying poison in raids. Venomstrike is garbage for pvp you would be way better off using wsg bow or raptors end. Overall very bad video kek
Any new rogues that need advice, please don't listen to this clown, I can answer any pve/pvp questions you have. This guy gave out so much pure misinfo and bad recommendations its actually wild
www.wowhead.com/classic/item=16886/outlaw-sabre I'm literally using this in pve. You're trippin. And mutilate DOES do much more damage. Even without factoring in +20% damage to poisoned targets and the +10% offhand damage talent were taking here.
@@ZorpoTV Only for horde. By taking the offhand talent you miss out on opportunity for flat 20% more dmg. This gets applied while in front as well for mutilate. Its like you dont know anything about rogue but insist on making false info videos. You are flat out wrong in saying mutilate does more dmg. I have compared these numbers myself. I crit for about 350-390 with backstab and mutilate barely hits 300, with poison proc it can go near 350. Do the simple math. Not to mention Mutilate simply uses too much energy.
by taking increased backstab damage you sacrifice 5% hit cap, so you won't be landing many gouges or getting many resets off. all you can do is press backstab, vanish and shadowstrike. after that, you're done especially if your enemy is able to get some distance or heal. @@Huckle777
I can feel the seething anger coming from your keyboard. It's almost like you know my build is better, but you'd have to admit you've been playing it all wrong this whole time!@@Huckle777
@@ZorpoTV LOL only one seething is you for being called out for making shit content. Im just frustrated you are putting out false info but really could care less. Youre just a bad rogue its simple.