Not only have all these episodes been wonderful, but Ben has been wonderful, too. He knows how to ask and then he teaches how to listen. Big props to him.
Dina Yoffe is an amazing pianist and teacher. I still clearly remember the masterclass I had with her, where I played Chopin’s Scherzo in B-flat minor, Op. 31, No. 2. In just one hour, she gave me so much valuable knowledge, especially about Chopin’s legato. I left feeling truly inspired. She has a deep understanding of how Chopin’s music should sound and be learned. I completely agree that Chopin’s music is about creating a beautiful melody combined with solid technique 🙏🎹
Great interview, and it was a real pleasure to hear the snippets of Yoffe's performances -- clear, assured, powerful presentation that she seems to pull off not only effortlessly (ha!) but with inward laughter and delight in the moments of music-making.
She’s not wrong. I can’t tell you how many times I hear Chopin played like nothing but impressive technical displays, when we know that was the LEAST of his goals. Chopin is often distorted exaggeratedly these days: his technically challenging works are played way too fast and his sentimental works are played way too slow. And that’s in addition to the boring standardized interpretations we hear. I’m glad some pianists are pointing this out. One would think that the last person whose music you’d want to turn into empty meaningless technical displays would be Chopin when we know for a fact that that was NEVER something he wanted and I’m not sure it benefits his music to be played in this way.
Playing too fast or too slow is always a subjective matter. By whose yardstick do we measure this? Who determines? Do we have a consensus on this? Don't set up imaginary benchmarks where none exists.
@@Effulgent888- Well, I would say, by Chopin's own 'yardstick'. I highly recommend Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger's excellent book "Chopin vu par ses élèves", published in 1970. The English translation was published in 1986 under the title "Chopin: pianist and teacher - as seen by his pupils". There's a revised edition from 2006, but that edition has not been translated into English yet (as far as I know). I can't think of a better book for you to scrutinize in search of an answer to your important question. It helped me a great deal in better understanding Chopin's own playing style, his technique, his detailed writing, his intentions, his expectations and preferences. Maybe you will like the book too. For what it's worth, I also learned a lot from playing Chopin and Bach on a historical Pleyel with parallel strings, and from practicing Chopin without sustain pedal, as recommended by Dina Yoffe in this video.
@effulgent888 While tempo can be subjective, when you’re dealing exceptionally popular pieces by exceptionally popular composers (such as Chopin), there *is* typically a consensus on what the tempo should be. We (the classical/classical piano world) have arrived at that consensus after 200 years of the pieces being played, and the various interpretations streamlining toward a standard. And, of course, with recording, we have almost a century recorded performances by world-class pianists, and that has solidified the standard, because, like it or not, people are heavily influenced by those reference-level recordings. Moreover, a composer as meticulous as Chopin often gave fairly strict ideas about how he wanted his work to be played, including tempi instruction. As a result, there is an expected tempo for certain pieces, whether one would like to follow them or not. While one is free to play as fast or as slow as one wishes to, if one wants to have acclaim or success as a pianist while playing such very popular works, then, typically, one should be somewhere within the realm of that established tempo. Although there are some pianists who come along and push the limits and boundaries, they are very, very few and far between; and the amount who actually set a new standard are even rarer.
@@allegroaffettuoso9012- Although there is nothing wrong with your reasoning, I'm not sure if I fully understand your premise regarding concepts like 'consensus' and 'standardized interpretations'. I'd say that consensus in musical performance and interpretation is an inherently problematic concept, since it usually refers to convention, rather than knowledgeable, well-informed agreement. Like musical taste, convention is subject to constant change, which means that standardized interpretations are not necessarilly the result of a growing shared understanding of, or an increased appreciation for, a particular piece or type of music, but more a reflection of the expectations of the majority of people in the audience (which, by the way, usually doesn't include music critics). More often than not, those expectations don't evolve in a logical, gradual way; they are volatile and unpredictable to the point where nothing is permanent, except change itself (to use and paraphrase the words of Heraclitus). On the other hand, well-informed academic agreement on notions like the composer's intentions, historical performance practice, musical traditions regarding interpretation, etcetera, doesn't result in a permanent standard either, since it is just the result of an ongoing intellectual effort of discovery, reconstruction, interpretation, careful hypothesizing (aka educated guessing) and verification. The end result of such an intellectual process is more like an 'inference to the best explanation' in physics, depending on the goal of the research, the available sources/data, the nature of the applied research methods, etcetera. Musicology usually focuses on authenticity, which tends to hurt the practical relevance of the research, since it includes factors like the evolution of musical instruments, progress in musical education and music theory, the changing level of professional training over the past decades/centuries, the musical education of the audience; factors that can not be taken into account by musicians in an unambiguous way. In other words, consensus is a problematic, dynamic concept that has no clear definition in the musical performance practice, so how can it be a premise of your (otherwise valid) argument? Isn't musical consensus just an illusion, or at best a convention among a certain group of people at a certain point in time? After all, there were quite a few music critics in Chopin's time who seemed to be in agreement over the poor quality of several of Chopin's own performances, even when he played new repertoire that nobody had ever heard before. What are your thoughts on that? Happy New Year!
@@j.vonhogen9650 In this instance, consensus doesn’t refer to convention, but rather the “knowledgeable, well-informed agreement” you’re speaking of. At its most basic, “consensus” simply means “an agreement”, and that’s the context in which I’m using it. Consensus in classical music is an organic thing that arrives based on, A.) the composer’s instructions (and in this case, we’re dealing with a composer who is often exceptionally specific on matters like tempo), B.) nearly two centuries of generation defining pianists setting a standard giving unique interpretations and the collective ear of classical music haggling over what is best until the collective zeitgeist settles on an established range that is “right” for the piece, and C.) nearly a century of recordings, some of which become reference standards and further add to the consensus. With a composer like Chopin, for nearly all of his works, there is an expectation of how it should be played, generally; a consensus that has arisen based on the composer’s instructions and the nearly 200 years of development, evolution, and agreement around performance expectations of his works.
16:02 - "Practice without pedal." Yes, absolutely! Practicing Chopin without pedal will significantly improve your legato playing as well as your pedaling technique. In addition to that, you will get a higher appreciation for Chopin's excellent and highly detailed writing.
If you want to look at (most of) Chopin's music as etudes or having etude like qualities, you would really find them there. But I feel she's more pointing to the idea that all music can be approached as a study in some sort of technique. ie. learning technique through repertoire over exercises/studies. By bridging the etude with musicality, Chopin has really done a great service to piano music literature as a whole.
Some amazing insights here. Especially interesting is that the historical instruments of Chopin's time were not capable of being played on at the speeds many pianists do today. This got me thinking about Liszt's transcendental etudes and speeds at which these are played at today. Lots to ponder here on this most excellent interview. Indeed Dina Yoffe has a lot to share.
Perhaps Dina Yoffe has not had much experience on historical instruments. The consensus among specialists on early pianos seems to be that it is easier to play fast on them, which may be why some of Chopin's tempi are so hard to reach on modern pianos.
@@DismasZelenka That's very interesting! I would have expected them to be harder to play fast due to the limited escapement action on early pianos...unlike the triple escapement actions of today.
Never having tried one of those instruments myself, I always assumed the touch was lighter and easier to play fast, but it seems not. Makes sense in a way, since actions continued to improve and become more reliable since Chopin’s day.
@@DismasZelenkaAnother consideration is that it’s hard to know what a historical instrument would have been like when it was new… we have all tried pianos made long since the 19th century that are now really awful at the end of their lives. Even a restored instrument can be a shadow of its former self.
@@butwhatwouldiknow Some older instruments have been very well restored, but there are also now many newly made fortepianos. If you are interested, the Polish Chopin Institute's international Chopin competition on period instruments has a lot of videos of the 2023 competitors.
@rrg6625. No pianist can play Chopin’s etudes in «double speed». NOBODY! But some pianists play the etudes half as fast as Chopin marked with his own MM’s. The combination of children and logic confirms my claim.
Le tempo rapide devient souvent une sorte de convention pour les pianistes contemporains, je pense à la Mazurka op33/2, exécutée à toute allure sous prétexte qu'elle n'est pas faite "pour être dansée", on est privé du plaisir d'attendre les passages répétés de Ré majeur D à La majeur L ! Cela dit un tempo trop lent peut ne révéler qu'une recherche d'originalité, et là je pense au Nocturne op 48/1.
Fascinating interview, would love to hear more. Also 8:07 interesting what she says about historical pianos because I’ve heard the opposite - that historical piano keys have much lighter action and therefore one can actually follow his prescribed metronome markings. For example, I’ve pretty much never heard anyone play the winter wind etude at the blazing speed that Chopin writes. I’ve been assuming it’s easier on historical pianos (never played one myself though).
The pianos used by Chopin were single action. This means the key had to raise entirely to reset the action, and allow the next hit. So although the action is lighter, you cannot play nearly as fast. The double action was invented, however very rare at this point, and not owned by Chopin. There have been some videos by *he-who-shan't-be-named* on this exact topic, as he has recorded much of the repertoire on an 1840s Erard fortepiano (and is continuing to record regularly). Regardless of anyone's thoughts on Chopin's intentions, he simply did not play nearly as fast as we play today. It was a physical impossibility of the technology being used. I'm sure he *could* given our modern pianos, but he did not.
@@ExtraCrispyBits But you can find videos online of people playing quite virtuosic pieces on historical pianos from Chopin's time, including Chopin's own pleyel itself.
@@Chopin-Etudes-Cosplay You can find them playing somewhat fast, correct. You cannot find them playing anywhere near the marked tempi of the faster pieces. Especially when it comes to repeated notes or even trills. There are mechanical limits of single action pianos, by nature of needing to reset the key with a full key lift. Having personally played multiple single action pianos, they are a different beast entirely. Beautiful in their own right, but some of the material simply cannot be played at such speeds on single action.
@@ExtraCrispyBits Chopin hardly wrote repeated notes, possibly because of repetition problems. But this does not apply to he-who-shan't-be-named, since his Erard recordings (btw his piano is an English Erard from 1866) does have double-escapement. RUclips BTW is full of recordings of Tatiana Shebanova (Erard), Hardy RIttner (Graf), John Khouri (Broadwood) and many more. Judge for yourself.
@ExtraCrispyBits He-who-shant-be-named? Did voldemort study under Liszt, or did a pianist I'm unfamiliar with commit a transgression? I am entirely unaware of actual drama in the classical world.
Wonderful interview, but one query? Is Dina Yoffe right when she says at 8:08 on that it is impossible to play at these tempos on historical pianos? As far as I understand it, you need a different technique on period instruments, to take account of the lighter action. Specialist fortepianists who have mastered the technique are able to play just as fast as modern pianists on modern pianos. As an aside, the Warsaw Chopin Institute has a separate period instrument competition. Will the American Chopin Foundation be thinking about doing this?
Much agreed! I've played on many period instruments, and playing fast is much easier on them. Repeated notes are also no issue unless you're doing Scarlattis' d minor at Argerich's speed..
Check out Hardy Rittner’s recordings of the Chopin etudes, for one among many examples, on a Graf piano of the kind Chopin would have used when composing the op. 10 etudes. Chopin’s tempo marks are not impossible on period instruments.
@@bordersofelmet Simply not true. Get out a metronome and check for yourself. And calculating tempo by average à la Winters is total bunk- all musical and historically informed performance includes a degree of tempo flexibility (in fact, probably more than we’re used to today) as described in contemporary sources.
@@bordersofelmet You don't get the point, which is whether it is possible to play as fast on a historic piano as on a modern one. Rittner plays much of the passage work in Op.10 no. 12 at Chopin's tempo, or perhaps sometimes even more. So the very first bar starts under tempo, but speeds up to a little over. Because of the dramatic and emotional character of that particular Etude, his tempo is justifiably not rigid. I'll take your word for it that mathematically on average it works out at 135; I don't listen to music with a pocket calculator!. Did you check op.10 no.1? Rittner plays that almost throughout at Chopin's quarter = 176.
A point of view from someone who is able to play them all is always interesting... however, with the upcoming Chopin competition, I am traditionally starting to feel uneasy again. Why do the jurors desire to sit in the jury, considering they are going to hear 60-65 A minor Etudes? Is it about the prestige? And in the preselection the choice of Ballade has even further been restricted to only No. 2 or No. 3... Why is 25/8 considered a lesser etude than the others? And why is it even necessary to play only Chopin at the Warsaw competition? Is _comparison_ the name of the game here? The less options, the more comfortable it is to judge? Dina Yoffe is talking about many pianists doing the same rubato which has not been written by Chopin - but sometimes it seems to me that it is precisely the Chopin competition that is a considerable anti-Chopin tool, which makes his music more mainstream and standardized. I am not a concert pianist, but as a music lover this always leaves my common sense flabbergasted.
@@ZbynekPilbauer yeah there’s truth to that. Actually Dina Yoffe suggested in another part of the interview that didn’t make the get that the competition should require chamber music, and not only by Chopin but by Schumann, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, etc. But the larger point you make about competitions breeding sameness and conformity is true, and it’s not specific to the Chopin competition. Nonetheless there are pianists who transcend these negative aspects of the competition and end up proving their artistry in spite of the artificial pressures placed on them. I think the real positive is that it’s an event that brings people around the world together listening carefully to the same performances, developing their tastes and debating interpretations, and so on. There’s nothing quite like that, and the fact that it’s all Chopin creates common ground on which distinctive performances can be brought in relief.
@@benlawdy Thank you for your reply, that sounds like a healthy, logical way of perceiving competitions and I particularly agree with your last sentences about bringing people together. I still have an objection though. I really feel that the Chopin competition breeds sameness more than the others. Firstly because it focuses on the one composer who is by nature rare, noble, different, elusive - exactly the kind whom you would want to be the least standardized. There is also the added responsibility of it being perhaps the most prestigious competition out there. While the motivation behind the high production value and extensive preparation seems to be to popularize Chopin's music, I think the way it is being done at the moment is dangerous. And including Polonaise-Fantasie as an obligatory piece in the final round, that is just downright perverse. Of course, when I listen to Martín García García for example, I feel all the listening was worthwile, even if just for one or two pianists. Nonetheless, it still seems that García succeeded in spite of the competition, not because of it. What sometimes provokes me are those prefabricated tutorials (without the possibility of individual dialogue) titled "Improve _your_ Chopin Scherzo No. 2". It is almost as if those masterpieces have become a commonplace item, something prosaic that belongs to every pianist, and all that is left to do is turn a couple of screws every now and then to "make it work even more". Anyway, I got carried away by a couple of my random thoughts again - sorry for the long post.
The way that Dina Yoffe plays Chopin nobody can. I am a pianist too and l have heard many versions of Chopin played by different pianists but the feelings that l get when she plays Chopin l never get through any other pianists. Music is more than technique, even good pianists don’t fully understand that, they think they do. You need to have something special, that unique talent, passion and soul for art. I wish l could have studied with her. I agree with everything she is stating.
Благодаря Бену как будто опять встретился, Дина, с Вами десятилетия спустя как Вы приходили к нам или мы шли с родителями на Ваши с Мишей концерты, и мама говорила: "Какие же они замечательные!". Никто не знал и не мог знать, что будет происходить в мире, но все, имеющие глаза и уши, знали, что Вы будете подниматься все выше и выше. Обнимаю, Володя Гуревич, Москва
Hey Ben, just bought a book of Chopin Preludes and Études again after not playing them for a decade. I'm surprised at how much I remember. This time I'm gonna learn every single one of them. Thanks for the inspiration.
@@benlawdyunderstandable, weirdly enough I feel way more confident now than I did in the past. Op 10 no 1 was always the bane of my existence and now it doesn't seem so bad. I also have The prelude in E flat major another shot and realized it's not nearly as hard as I thought. Never realized how much I missed these pieces. Chopin really is the best teacher.
I couldn’t agree more with Maestra Yoffe, when she spoke of so many young pianists wanting to play faster than everybody else….I call them “entertainers” and RUclips Geniuses as opposed to “artists.” Yuja Wang and Lang Lang fall into this category, and I think Wang bares her butt and wears stiletto heels to keep the male experts in the audience from realizing that she’s simply not musical….her fingers are like mechanized jackhammers. If one listens to any of these speed demons next to a _real_ artist, such as Vladimir Ashkenazy as one example, their lack of musicality is just simply glaring. I’m thrilled by Yoffe’s artistry as well, and it was lovely to hear her wisdom.
The world of music has been constantly sped up with each generation. It's an inevitable consequence of the advancement of music and the emphasis on competition over enjoyment of a composition. Chopin's etudes, in particular, are not simple boring exercises. He created them to also be enjoyable to hear. When music simply becomes muscle memory, it loses a lot of character.
It’s so advisable video. Chopin is too lyrical for me to play fast and I’m annoyed with the difficulty of the Etudes. Ms. Yoffe’s comment wants to be my anthem for opening the door. Thanks for your help.
@Hérm…. Then you should blaim Chopin himself, because it is his own MM, and they are fast! But a number of young pianists plays some of the etudes even faster than Chopin’s MM.
@rand503. You never learn, do you? I have told you this before - we don’t dicuss taste! We discuss how to understand the ancient written sources. With great pleasure, I will now quote Wim Winters that sometimes has something good to shear: «What is ‘awful’ or not is personal, and cannot be used as a factual argument».
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Chopin didn't give too many MM markings. But yes, they are often fast -- unless you consider them in the whole beat. IF you do, you will find them not so fast.
Always great stuff Ben! Dina Yoffe' playing speaks directly to me. Too many artists play way too fast. Her tempo's are perfect for my musical tastes. You've now introduced me recently to 3 pianists Avery Gagliano, Dina Yoffe and Claire Huangci who are too good to be believed. Throw in Yeol Eum Son and Yuja and I could live happy forever. The world of classical piano has never been in better shape than it is today. Thanks.
At 8:08 of the video, she starts to talk about tempos and then goes on to say that people play too fast. Here’s the problem with that statement: The winners of these Piano Competitions, chosen by judges in her position of power, ALL USUALLY PLAY FAST. I’m NOT accusing this woman of bias, but other judges, have been accused of bias. The cd recordings on RUclips have pianists playing FAST. I’m NOT saying all of the pianists who make recordings play fast, but there’re enough that do this, so it can’t be ignored. They need a better system that can rate the expressiveness of the musician. The problem is that expressiveness IS SUBJECTIVE. Who’s to say one persons’ interpretation is better than another???? Then, when there’s a competition, this is where it gets ugly because, million dollar careers can be made by winning or just placing as one of the top players. I’ve heard of students placing 6th or 5th in these competitions that received recording contracts. By the way, there’s no written history that I’m aware of that state that Mozart, Beethoven, Hayden, or others won competitions. They just played well and people wanted to hear them because they wrote great music. I’m not saying that competitions are all bad but there’re stories of favoritism in them and preferences for pianists who play fast. The competitions should be a way to make connections in the music industry, as well as getting a performance opportunity to play in a concert hall and then to build on that.
It's great that she talks about what's actually in the score and how important it is. I've been to many masterclasses and it's inevitable that the teachers -- the late Leon Fleisher, Murray Perhia, Richard Goode, Andras Schiff are some that I"ve seen -- wind up reminding the students what the score actually says. And these are students at top conservatories and music schools! You would think that their own teachers would have taught them that.
As someone who grew up with studies by Hanon and Czerny (boring!), the idea of using Chopin etudes to develop technique and musicality appeals to me. They probably would have been too difficult for me as a young pianist, but I wish I had studied more than I did as a teenager.
The answer to the tempo is in front of your noses, dear readers, yet you still can not see it! I hope the day of the answer arrives to the mainstream area of music.
@davcaslop. Wim Winters confirms in several videos that the WBMP cannot be historically right when it comes to pace. Davcaslop, you know that all issues have multiple sides, and that also applies to this discussion. Want to know more?
@davcaslop. We do not need to present many examples to understand that the idea of WBMP cannot be historically correct. Wim Winters has fine versions of Bach’s two-part inventions, where in time signature C he follows the old practice of tempo ordinario. The results vary by 60-80 crotchets per minute, and it agrees with the sources. But look what he does when he plays Beethoven’s allegro movements from Beethoven’s piano sonatas. The allegro movements receive fewr crotchets per minute than the Baroque tempo ordinario. Which sources tells you that allegro tempo from 1800 was slower than 1700 tempo ordinario?
i wish pianists would take this message to heart and slow down not only the etudes but many of the codas, which are really unmusical and just a noisy blur at the tempos at which they generally played. Ballades 1 and 4 come to mind - two gorgeous pieces so often marred by rushed, unmusical codas.
Imo this is kind of an unfair generalization because the great ones where the pinnacle of their time, the purely technical were forgotten, same thing today. There are still amazing players, you just have to search for them, some of the less known that I really like are: martin garcia, kyohei sorita, sergio tiempo etc.
Brilliant information. Having done some composition, I must say, putting in articulation markings as a composer, generally you really mean it. You are saying what you want to hear. The notes are often not enough. Every pianist should pay attention. Of course you CAN change from it - even the composer-pianist did this sometimes (I have heard Rachmaninov playing differently from his own dynamic markings for example) - but it has to be mindful and deliberate, having looked at the composer's markings and saying "no, I understand, but I feel it THIS way".
Yeah these judges always claim they care about the “music” and “meaning” and not the tempo and that they prefer exciting playing with inaccuracies over boring perfect playing…. And then they pick as the finalists the most predictable cookie cutter international style perfect players they can find 😂
@@leaguenoob3085 kind of true, yeah. I suppose we should look at how Dina Yoffe voted to know for sure. Also, if everyone or almost everyone is playing a bit too fast, she’s still forced to pick among the best of those! But my sense is that what you describe is a product of imperfect voting systems that tend to favor an inoffensive standard. Averaging systems tend to weed out distinctiveness, since different elements of distinction in an artist appeal differently to different judges. Just an idle theory though; I haven’t studied it.
@@benlawdy in a lot of competitions the voting system is such that you don't win by having the most 'fantastic, what an artist'-scores, but the least 'I hate this'-scores. You don't win by convincing jury members, but by not offending any.
The issue of tempo comes down , at least for me, to the fact that if you play too fast, you miss the harmonic shifts that chopin pioneered. Growing up playing all the rapis tempi, i always peacticed slowly. I noticed harmonies that are missed when plated too fast, and the audience of course misses it entirely. Why would chooin write such gorgeous harmonies only to not allow any one ti hear them, except for the practicing studrnt? So i have bevome avfan of playinf yhem slower. This anger a lot of trained pianists, and i am pretty sure why. They trained very hard to yave a superior technique, and no one wants to hear they wasted their time. Their identity as a performing artisy is based on the fact they can play faster and louder on the the mist difficult pieces.
What are the thoughts that maybe chopin etudes are played twice as fast as it should be? I have been convinced that the tempo markings with metronome indication is impossible to attain so it cannot be correct.
So what if people made a rubato in winter wind? Nobody follows the score 100% accurately and chopen himself also wouldn't Not everyone can afford to study with a jury member of Chopin but it is dangerous to let people who don't understand it judge. It is very ugly to reduce them to "youtubeists" it has a disrespectful connotation and there's nothing wrong with being inspired by great artist one can find on RUclips especially since most people can't afford 700$ masterclasses where jury members teach.
Also, if she is someone who rates one rubato that she dislikes as unacceptable she doesn't value talent and shouldn't be a judge. Some people don't have the best professors who could teach them to fix the smallest of errors that is this rubato (not to say that it isn't false to never play that which isn't in the score because it shows terrible understanding of 1. What Chopin would want given his known opposite advice to his students 2. What it is tobe an artist) But more importantly she is dangerous because the purpose of chopin competition is to find a true artist true talent and maybe talent like that hasn't had the means to the best-- most expensive -- education so to punish them for not knowing everything - especially in this case when they say someone admirable do it - is literally losing sight of the most important part of judging
On that note thank you so much @benlawde for providing free knowledge to people who would love to work with these big artists but couldn't, you're not just a RUclipsr this provides so much value to people. Thank you.
A couple of weeks ago you told me you didn’t have a dog in the fight over Whole Beat Metronome Practice. But this video is so much about WBMP! Surprised you didn’t mention it. Bit of a disservice to viewers not to state the obvious.
@@MyMusicGenesis still no horse in the race, no dog in the fight, etc. Curious about WBMP but it’s not something I know enough about to allude to in this interview with Dina Yoffe! I also don’t believe that her general claim that pianists play faster today than in Chopin’s time is necessarily evidence of or even related to the WBMP thesis.
@@benlawdy Considering the ever-present arguments against the obvious: that Single Beat speeds ARE possible (they're often not), and that they were even MORE possible on historical instruments (not true)...the content of this video is 100% related to WBMP. Who's gonna tell Dina Yoffe that she's playing too slow? (She's not. She's playing sensitively, artistically, and beautifully. But it's under Single Beat tempo. And would have to be even slower on a period instrument.) All of your recent YT content is around this. You're curious about it, so learn about it. You're in the music ed space, and your viewers expect expertise.
@@MyMusicGenesis Is this really necessary? Your tone is uncalled for. Most of us are not coming here to nitpick the details in the weeds. And I’d say Ben’s expertise speaks for itself. Your pretension does as well.
@@nickwilson7697 Tempo is one of (if not THE) most critical choices a performer of this repertoire can make. It's not nitpicking, it's not details in the weeds. It's the forest. Pretension is talking around the issue without addressing the elephant in the room, which is that modern metronome interpretations destroy creativity rather than enhance it. I'd say on this issue Ben's expertise does not speak for itself since he chooses not to speak on the subject. Speaking out on an important topic when few others choose to doesn't make someone pretentious. Courageous maybe. I'll go with that. But thanks.
@@MyMusicGenesisDon’t be rude. Ben has a great channel that is interesting and informative. He has really engaging guests. It is perfectly fine to bring up WBMP and other ideas but perhaps lose the disdain in your suggestion.
The offer is there Ben. I think you should do a video discussing WBPM with Wim. I would have thought this was a topic you would jump at considering the content of this channel .ruclips.net/video/X0TXsrn-Rv8/видео.htmlsi=4WRRDeanGE3r-Oow
@robinthomsoncomposer. If there is a discussion, I hope that Wim Winters respects Ben Laude more than he respects some others. Comments Wim Winters finds annoying because the content is irrefutable, tend to disappear from his channel. Even I, with my moderate level of knowledge, find a number of errors and some manipulations in his videos. Wim Winters is more often manipulative than scientific.
@ “French/Polish pan-European composer” doesn’t quite roll off the tongue. ;) Of course it’s a testament to his greatness that different nations want to claim him as their own. But France was a cosmopolitan capital of the 19th Century, which paradoxically resists a narrowing of national identity, as you suggest (indeed, he is “European”… but then, after the 20th century, to be European spilled over into America through more forced exiles, so why can’t America claim him a little bit too… maybe just 1-2%? We have Garrick after all;). In other words, to be French is to be more than French, especially in post revolutionary Paris. An imperial capital, unlike Warsaw - embattled and victims of imperialism, which makes claims to nationalism sharper (and arguably more warranted). Any national designation is limiting on some level, of course, but I would still call Rachmaninoff a “Russian” composer rather than “Russian American.” Of course it’s not an exact parallel (he didn’t have an American father and fled from a place of privilege), but his late works have plenty of American influences as much as they preserve a longing for his homeland. It’s conventional to consider where someone grew up and where their “soul” resides - and for Chopin the answer is Poland, which he had to leave and never return only out of professional and political necessity.
If Chopin heard this woman (or any other pianists that try to dissect and analyse the music "intellectually") talk he will probably say "WTF are you talking about? Just play the damn thing!" When Liszt purportedly was sight-reading Chopin's etude, Chopin wrote "I wish I could steal his way of playing my etudes." Liszt just played. No dissection or analysis.
@@vavahlavulva4370 Chopin and Liszt were both teachers who dissected and analyzed music constantly. And even if what you’re saying is true, who cares? If it’s helpful for us today to dissect and analyze music today, then it’s worthwhile.
@@benlawdy 90.5% of the audience don't know what the hell is going on. Who are we kidding? That is why Yuja and Lang2 are up there. And yes they did dissect and analyse music but definitely not the way these pseudos are doing.
Great video as usual... however - there is no such thing as 'too fast', Ben - only 'too slow' - as my teacher/friend Peter Feuchtwanger said - the Russians tend to play everything too slow... (obviously he was talking about slow movements) Earl Wild was famously the fastest of all modern virtuosi...
No polish composer but french composer. Chopin has never been polish but french. His father was french so was his mother by his wedding. You have to verify his passeport were is indicated : born of french parents.
Not only have all these episodes been wonderful, but Ben has been wonderful, too. He knows how to ask and then he teaches how to listen. Big props to him.
Dina Yoffe is an amazing pianist and teacher. I still clearly remember the masterclass I had with her, where I played Chopin’s Scherzo in B-flat minor, Op. 31, No. 2. In just one hour, she gave me so much valuable knowledge, especially about Chopin’s legato. I left feeling truly inspired. She has a deep understanding of how Chopin’s music should sound and be learned. I completely agree that Chopin’s music is about creating a beautiful melody combined with solid technique 🙏🎹
The "who tf cares about this silly point of ceremony" vibe is such a clear indicator that you've found a master teacher
Never heard her playing, despite the low quality of the footage she seems truly Amazing at Chopin
Great interview, and it was a real pleasure to hear the snippets of Yoffe's performances -- clear, assured, powerful presentation that she seems to pull off not only effortlessly (ha!) but with inward laughter and delight in the moments of music-making.
All these new videos are great for me as I am currently recovering from sickness.
Chopin is healing me!
Hey Ben! Happy Thanksgiving;) I’m so glad you interviewed one of my teachers, Professor Joffe. She is an amazing musician and pianist.
@@elias-axelpettersson7292 thank you Elias! Happy Thanksgiving!
She’s not wrong. I can’t tell you how many times I hear Chopin played like nothing but impressive technical displays, when we know that was the LEAST of his goals. Chopin is often distorted exaggeratedly these days: his technically challenging works are played way too fast and his sentimental works are played way too slow. And that’s in addition to the boring standardized interpretations we hear. I’m glad some pianists are pointing this out. One would think that the last person whose music you’d want to turn into empty meaningless technical displays would be Chopin when we know for a fact that that was NEVER something he wanted and I’m not sure it benefits his music to be played in this way.
Playing too fast or too slow is always a subjective matter. By whose yardstick do we measure this? Who determines? Do we have a consensus on this? Don't set up imaginary benchmarks where none exists.
@@Effulgent888- Well, I would say, by Chopin's own 'yardstick'.
I highly recommend Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger's excellent book "Chopin vu par ses élèves", published in 1970. The English translation was published in 1986 under the title "Chopin: pianist and teacher - as seen by his pupils".
There's a revised edition from 2006, but that edition has not been translated into English yet (as far as I know).
I can't think of a better book for you to scrutinize in search of an answer to your important question. It helped me a great deal in better understanding Chopin's own playing style, his technique, his detailed writing, his intentions, his expectations and preferences. Maybe you will like the book too.
For what it's worth, I also learned a lot from playing Chopin and Bach on a historical Pleyel with parallel strings, and from practicing Chopin without sustain pedal, as recommended by Dina Yoffe in this video.
@effulgent888 While tempo can be subjective, when you’re dealing exceptionally popular pieces by exceptionally popular composers (such as Chopin), there *is* typically a consensus on what the tempo should be. We (the classical/classical piano world) have arrived at that consensus after 200 years of the pieces being played, and the various interpretations streamlining toward a standard. And, of course, with recording, we have almost a century recorded performances by world-class pianists, and that has solidified the standard, because, like it or not, people are heavily influenced by those reference-level recordings. Moreover, a composer as meticulous as Chopin often gave fairly strict ideas about how he wanted his work to be played, including tempi instruction. As a result, there is an expected tempo for certain pieces, whether one would like to follow them or not. While one is free to play as fast or as slow as one wishes to, if one wants to have acclaim or success as a pianist while playing such very popular works, then, typically, one should be somewhere within the realm of that established tempo. Although there are some pianists who come along and push the limits and boundaries, they are very, very few and far between; and the amount who actually set a new standard are even rarer.
@@allegroaffettuoso9012- Although there is nothing wrong with your reasoning, I'm not sure if I fully understand your premise regarding concepts like 'consensus' and 'standardized interpretations'.
I'd say that consensus in musical performance and interpretation is an inherently problematic concept, since it usually refers to convention, rather than knowledgeable, well-informed agreement.
Like musical taste, convention is subject to constant change, which means that standardized interpretations are not necessarilly the result of a growing shared understanding of, or an increased appreciation for, a particular piece or type of music, but more a reflection of the expectations of the majority of people in the audience (which, by the way, usually doesn't include music critics). More often than not, those expectations don't evolve in a logical, gradual way; they are volatile and unpredictable to the point where nothing is permanent, except change itself (to use and paraphrase the words of Heraclitus).
On the other hand, well-informed academic agreement on notions like the composer's intentions, historical performance practice, musical traditions regarding interpretation, etcetera, doesn't result in a permanent standard either, since it is just the result of an ongoing intellectual effort of discovery, reconstruction, interpretation, careful hypothesizing (aka educated guessing) and verification. The end result of such an intellectual process is more like an 'inference to the best explanation' in physics, depending on the goal of the research, the available sources/data, the nature of the applied research methods, etcetera.
Musicology usually focuses on authenticity, which tends to hurt the practical relevance of the research, since it includes factors like the evolution of musical instruments, progress in musical education and music theory, the changing level of professional training over the past decades/centuries, the musical education of the audience; factors that can not be taken into account by musicians in an unambiguous way.
In other words, consensus is a problematic, dynamic concept that has no clear definition in the musical performance practice, so how can it be a premise of your (otherwise valid) argument?
Isn't musical consensus just an illusion, or at best a convention among a certain group of people at a certain point in time? After all, there were quite a few music critics in Chopin's time who seemed to be in agreement over the poor quality of several of Chopin's own performances, even when he played new repertoire that nobody had ever heard before. What are your thoughts on that?
Happy New Year!
@@j.vonhogen9650 In this instance, consensus doesn’t refer to convention, but rather the “knowledgeable, well-informed agreement” you’re speaking of. At its most basic, “consensus” simply means “an agreement”, and that’s the context in which I’m using it. Consensus in classical music is an organic thing that arrives based on, A.) the composer’s instructions (and in this case, we’re dealing with a composer who is often exceptionally specific on matters like tempo), B.) nearly two centuries of generation defining pianists setting a standard giving unique interpretations and the collective ear of classical music haggling over what is best until the collective zeitgeist settles on an established range that is “right” for the piece, and C.) nearly a century of recordings, some of which become reference standards and further add to the consensus. With a composer like Chopin, for nearly all of his works, there is an expectation of how it should be played, generally; a consensus that has arisen based on the composer’s instructions and the nearly 200 years of development, evolution, and agreement around performance expectations of his works.
16:02 - "Practice without pedal."
Yes, absolutely! Practicing Chopin without pedal will significantly improve your legato playing as well as your pedaling technique. In addition to that, you will get a higher appreciation for Chopin's excellent and highly detailed writing.
I just love what she does with the voicing the recap of Op 10 no 3.
This episode is pure gold.
If you want to look at (most of) Chopin's music as etudes or having etude like qualities, you would really find them there. But I feel she's more pointing to the idea that all music can be approached as a study in some sort of technique. ie. learning technique through repertoire over exercises/studies. By bridging the etude with musicality, Chopin has really done a great service to piano music literature as a whole.
What profound nuggets of wisdom this great lady is sharing with us!
Maestra Dina Yoffe - What an extraordinary pianist !
wow her etudes are absolutely magnificent!!!
Some amazing insights here. Especially interesting is that the historical instruments of Chopin's time were not capable of being played on at the speeds many pianists do today. This got me thinking about Liszt's transcendental etudes and speeds at which these are played at today. Lots to ponder here on this most excellent interview. Indeed Dina Yoffe has a lot to share.
Perhaps Dina Yoffe has not had much experience on historical instruments. The consensus among specialists on early pianos seems to be that it is easier to play fast on them, which may be why some of Chopin's tempi are so hard to reach on modern pianos.
@@DismasZelenka That's very interesting! I would have expected them to be harder to play fast due to the limited escapement action on early pianos...unlike the triple escapement actions of today.
Never having tried one of those instruments myself, I always assumed the touch was lighter and easier to play fast, but it seems not. Makes sense in a way, since actions continued to improve and become more reliable since Chopin’s day.
@@DismasZelenkaAnother consideration is that it’s hard to know what a historical instrument would have been like when it was new… we have all tried pianos made long since the 19th century that are now really awful at the end of their lives. Even a restored instrument can be a shadow of its former self.
@@butwhatwouldiknow Some older instruments have been very well restored, but there are also now many newly made fortepianos. If you are interested, the Polish Chopin Institute's international Chopin competition on period instruments has a lot of videos of the 2023 competitors.
The double speed kills the musicality of Mr Chopins beautiful creations. Music is not a race to the end.
Is "too fast" the same as "double speed"? Explain yourself.
@rrg6625. No pianist can play Chopin’s etudes in «double speed». NOBODY! But some pianists play the etudes half as fast as Chopin marked with his own MM’s. The combination of children and logic confirms my claim.
Le tempo rapide devient souvent une sorte de convention pour les pianistes contemporains, je pense à la Mazurka op33/2, exécutée à toute allure sous prétexte qu'elle n'est pas faite "pour être dansée", on est privé du plaisir d'attendre les passages répétés de Ré majeur D à La majeur L ! Cela dit un tempo trop lent peut ne révéler qu'une recherche d'originalité, et là je pense au Nocturne op 48/1.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving with peace and love ❤️ !
Opus 10/3 at a more flowing tempo also avoids sentimental wallowing.
This was fascinating! Thank you so much for sharing.
Great interview, absolutely fascinating!
She's playing extremely fast too at her concert in 2000. Can the etudes be played even faster than this?
That was my reaction too! I’ve never heard them played at significantly faster tempos.
Fascinating interview, would love to hear more. Also 8:07 interesting what she says about historical pianos because I’ve heard the opposite - that historical piano keys have much lighter action and therefore one can actually follow his prescribed metronome markings. For example, I’ve pretty much never heard anyone play the winter wind etude at the blazing speed that Chopin writes. I’ve been assuming it’s easier on historical pianos (never played one myself though).
The pianos used by Chopin were single action. This means the key had to raise entirely to reset the action, and allow the next hit. So although the action is lighter, you cannot play nearly as fast. The double action was invented, however very rare at this point, and not owned by Chopin. There have been some videos by *he-who-shan't-be-named* on this exact topic, as he has recorded much of the repertoire on an 1840s Erard fortepiano (and is continuing to record regularly). Regardless of anyone's thoughts on Chopin's intentions, he simply did not play nearly as fast as we play today. It was a physical impossibility of the technology being used. I'm sure he *could* given our modern pianos, but he did not.
@@ExtraCrispyBits But you can find videos online of people playing quite virtuosic pieces on historical pianos from Chopin's time, including Chopin's own pleyel itself.
@@Chopin-Etudes-Cosplay You can find them playing somewhat fast, correct. You cannot find them playing anywhere near the marked tempi of the faster pieces. Especially when it comes to repeated notes or even trills. There are mechanical limits of single action pianos, by nature of needing to reset the key with a full key lift. Having personally played multiple single action pianos, they are a different beast entirely. Beautiful in their own right, but some of the material simply cannot be played at such speeds on single action.
@@ExtraCrispyBits Chopin hardly wrote repeated notes, possibly because of repetition problems. But this does not apply to he-who-shan't-be-named, since his Erard recordings (btw his piano is an English Erard from 1866) does have double-escapement.
RUclips BTW is full of recordings of Tatiana Shebanova (Erard), Hardy RIttner (Graf), John Khouri (Broadwood) and many more. Judge for yourself.
@ExtraCrispyBits He-who-shant-be-named? Did voldemort study under Liszt, or did a pianist I'm unfamiliar with commit a transgression? I am entirely unaware of actual drama in the classical world.
What a wonderful pianist and person.
Wonderful interview, but one query? Is Dina Yoffe right when she says at 8:08 on that it is impossible to play at these tempos on historical pianos? As far as I understand it, you need a different technique on period instruments, to take account of the lighter action. Specialist fortepianists who have mastered the technique are able to play just as fast as modern pianists on modern pianos. As an aside, the Warsaw Chopin Institute has a separate period instrument competition. Will the American Chopin Foundation be thinking about doing this?
Much agreed! I've played on many period instruments, and playing fast is much easier on them. Repeated notes are also no issue unless you're doing Scarlattis' d minor at Argerich's speed..
Check out Hardy Rittner’s recordings of the Chopin etudes, for one among many examples, on a Graf piano of the kind Chopin would have used when composing the op. 10 etudes. Chopin’s tempo marks are not impossible on period instruments.
@@bordersofelmet Simply not true. Get out a metronome and check for yourself. And calculating tempo by average à la Winters is total bunk- all musical and historically informed performance includes a degree of tempo flexibility (in fact, probably more than we’re used to today) as described in contemporary sources.
@@bordersofelmet You don't get the point, which is whether it is possible to play as fast on a historic piano as on a modern one. Rittner plays much of the passage work in Op.10 no. 12 at Chopin's tempo, or perhaps sometimes even more. So the very first bar starts under tempo, but speeds up to a little over. Because of the dramatic and emotional character of that particular Etude, his tempo is justifiably not rigid. I'll take your word for it that mathematically on average it works out at 135; I don't listen to music with a pocket calculator!. Did you check op.10 no.1? Rittner plays that almost throughout at Chopin's quarter = 176.
A point of view from someone who is able to play them all is always interesting... however, with the upcoming Chopin competition, I am traditionally starting to feel uneasy again. Why do the jurors desire to sit in the jury, considering they are going to hear 60-65 A minor Etudes? Is it about the prestige? And in the preselection the choice of Ballade has even further been restricted to only No. 2 or No. 3... Why is 25/8 considered a lesser etude than the others? And why is it even necessary to play only Chopin at the Warsaw competition? Is _comparison_ the name of the game here? The less options, the more comfortable it is to judge?
Dina Yoffe is talking about many pianists doing the same rubato which has not been written by Chopin - but sometimes it seems to me that it is precisely the Chopin competition that is a considerable anti-Chopin tool, which makes his music more mainstream and standardized. I am not a concert pianist, but as a music lover this always leaves my common sense flabbergasted.
@@ZbynekPilbauer yeah there’s truth to that. Actually Dina Yoffe suggested in another part of the interview that didn’t make the get that the competition should require chamber music, and not only by Chopin but by Schumann, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, etc. But the larger point you make about competitions breeding sameness and conformity is true, and it’s not specific to the Chopin competition. Nonetheless there are pianists who transcend these negative aspects of the competition and end up proving their artistry in spite of the artificial pressures placed on them. I think the real positive is that it’s an event that brings people around the world together listening carefully to the same performances, developing their tastes and debating interpretations, and so on. There’s nothing quite like that, and the fact that it’s all Chopin creates common ground on which distinctive performances can be brought in relief.
@@benlawdy Thank you for your reply, that sounds like a healthy, logical way of perceiving competitions and I particularly agree with your last sentences about bringing people together.
I still have an objection though. I really feel that the Chopin competition breeds sameness more than the others. Firstly because it focuses on the one composer who is by nature rare, noble, different, elusive - exactly the kind whom you would want to be the least standardized.
There is also the added responsibility of it being perhaps the most prestigious competition out there. While the motivation behind the high production value and extensive preparation seems to be to popularize Chopin's music, I think the way it is being done at the moment is dangerous. And including Polonaise-Fantasie as an obligatory piece in the final round, that is just downright perverse. Of course, when I listen to Martín García García for example, I feel all the listening was worthwile, even if just for one or two pianists. Nonetheless, it still seems that García succeeded in spite of the competition, not because of it.
What sometimes provokes me are those prefabricated tutorials (without the possibility of individual dialogue) titled "Improve _your_ Chopin Scherzo No. 2". It is almost as if those masterpieces have become a commonplace item, something prosaic that belongs to every pianist, and all that is left to do is turn a couple of screws every now and then to "make it work even more". Anyway, I got carried away by a couple of my random thoughts again - sorry for the long post.
@@ZbynekPilbauer now when you got it all of your chest. Do you feel better?
@@Zympans Why yes, thank you for your kind concern, anonymous internet gentleman.
@@ZbynekPilbauer 🥲
The way that Dina Yoffe plays Chopin nobody can. I am a pianist too and l have heard many versions of Chopin played by different pianists but the feelings that l get when she plays Chopin l never get through any other pianists. Music is more than technique, even good pianists don’t fully understand that, they think they do. You need to have something special, that unique talent, passion and soul for art. I wish l could have studied with her. I agree with everything she is stating.
Благодаря Бену как будто опять встретился, Дина, с Вами десятилетия спустя как Вы приходили к нам или мы шли с родителями на Ваши с Мишей концерты, и мама говорила: "Какие же они замечательные!". Никто не знал и не мог знать, что будет происходить в мире, но все, имеющие глаза и уши, знали, что Вы будете подниматься все выше и выше. Обнимаю, Володя Гуревич, Москва
wow she is such a genius ! great school of Chopin
Hey Ben, just bought a book of Chopin Preludes and Études again after not playing them for a decade. I'm surprised at how much I remember. This time I'm gonna learn every single one of them. Thanks for the inspiration.
@@nintendianajones64 best of luck! I will never get through them all
@@benlawdyunderstandable, weirdly enough I feel way more confident now than I did in the past. Op 10 no 1 was always the bane of my existence and now it doesn't seem so bad.
I also have The prelude in E flat major another shot and realized it's not nearly as hard as I thought.
Never realized how much I missed these pieces. Chopin really is the best teacher.
I couldn’t agree more with Maestra Yoffe, when she spoke of so many young pianists wanting to play faster than everybody else….I call them “entertainers” and RUclips Geniuses as opposed to “artists.” Yuja Wang and Lang Lang fall into this category, and I think Wang bares her butt and wears stiletto heels to keep the male experts in the audience from realizing that she’s simply not musical….her fingers are like mechanized jackhammers. If one listens to any of these speed demons next to a _real_ artist, such as Vladimir Ashkenazy as one example, their lack of musicality is just simply glaring. I’m thrilled by Yoffe’s artistry as well, and it was lovely to hear her wisdom.
The world of music has been constantly sped up with each generation. It's an inevitable consequence of the advancement of music and the emphasis on competition over enjoyment of a composition. Chopin's etudes, in particular, are not simple boring exercises. He created them to also be enjoyable to hear. When music simply becomes muscle memory, it loses a lot of character.
It’s so advisable video.
Chopin is too lyrical for me to play fast and I’m annoyed with the difficulty of the Etudes.
Ms. Yoffe’s comment wants to be my anthem for opening the door.
Thanks for your help.
When you play the etudes slower, they become playable, and they are more beautiful
@Hérm…. Then you should blaim Chopin himself, because it is his own MM, and they are fast! But a number of young pianists plays some of the etudes even faster than Chopin’s MM.
@rand503. You never learn, do you? I have told you this before - we don’t dicuss taste! We discuss how to understand the ancient written sources. With great pleasure, I will now quote Wim Winters that sometimes has something good to shear: «What is ‘awful’ or not is personal, and cannot be used as a factual argument».
@ You've "told me this before?" I've never met you. But I really don't need you to scold me for my opinions, okay?
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Chopin didn't give too many MM markings. But yes, they are often fast -- unless you consider them in the whole beat. IF you do, you will find them not so fast.
Always great stuff Ben! Dina Yoffe' playing speaks directly to me. Too many artists play way too fast. Her tempo's are perfect for my musical tastes.
You've now introduced me recently to 3 pianists Avery Gagliano, Dina Yoffe and Claire Huangci who are too good to be believed. Throw in Yeol Eum Son and Yuja and I could live happy forever. The world of classical piano has never been in better shape than it is today. Thanks.
@@nickk8416 that’s nice to hear, and you’re about to meet a lot more in coming weeks!
How about Chopin’s own metronome markings?
Only someone with a fastidious obsession over tempo would care about tempo markings. Lots of Chopin's works have no tempo indications whatsoever.
They are on the fast side.
@@motoroladefy2740 except op25/4, which is marked far slower than we usually hear it.
@@benlawdy exactly, or op. 6 nr. 2, or ...
At 8:08 of the video, she starts to talk about tempos and then goes on to say that people play too fast. Here’s the problem with that statement: The winners of these Piano Competitions, chosen by judges in her position of power, ALL USUALLY PLAY FAST. I’m NOT accusing this woman of bias, but other judges, have been accused of bias. The cd recordings on RUclips have pianists playing FAST. I’m NOT saying all of the pianists who make recordings play fast, but there’re enough that do this, so it can’t be ignored. They need a better system that can rate the expressiveness of the musician. The problem is that expressiveness IS SUBJECTIVE. Who’s to say one persons’ interpretation is better than another???? Then, when there’s a competition, this is where it gets ugly because, million dollar careers can be made by winning or just placing as one of the top players. I’ve heard of students placing 6th or 5th in these competitions that received recording contracts. By the way, there’s no written history that I’m aware of that state that Mozart, Beethoven, Hayden, or others won competitions. They just played well and people wanted to hear them because they wrote great music. I’m not saying that competitions are all bad but there’re stories of favoritism in them and preferences for pianists who play fast. The competitions should be a way to make connections in the music industry, as well as getting a performance opportunity to play in a concert hall and then to build on that.
It's great that she talks about what's actually in the score and how important it is. I've been to many masterclasses and it's inevitable that the teachers -- the late Leon Fleisher, Murray Perhia, Richard Goode, Andras Schiff are some that I"ve seen -- wind up reminding the students what the score actually says. And these are students at top conservatories and music schools! You would think that their own teachers would have taught them that.
As someone who grew up with studies by Hanon and Czerny (boring!), the idea of using Chopin etudes to develop technique and musicality appeals to me. They probably would have been too difficult for me as a young pianist, but I wish I had studied more than I did as a teenager.
Fabulous presentation and performance. Many thanks. Invaluable!
It's true if Bach Partitas as well called "Clavier-Übung"
18:40 Showpan?
Hope you enjoyed the show…dan
🤭
@@benlawdy It was a smashing success!
😂😂 Lovely ❤ Chopin can live up to that, no bother.
No diminuendo at the end of Etude Op. 10 N. 1?
The answer to the tempo is in front of your noses, dear readers, yet you still can not see it! I hope the day of the answer arrives to the mainstream area of music.
@davcaslop. Wim Winters confirms in several videos that the WBMP cannot be historically right when it comes to pace. Davcaslop, you know that all issues have multiple sides, and that also applies to this discussion. Want to know more?
@davcaslop, I asked you - do you want to know some more about the errors in Wim Winters’ videos?
@davcaslop. We do not need to present many examples to understand that the idea of WBMP cannot be historically correct. Wim Winters has fine versions of Bach’s two-part inventions, where in time signature C he follows the old practice of tempo ordinario. The results vary by 60-80 crotchets per minute, and it agrees with the sources. But look what he does when he plays Beethoven’s allegro movements from Beethoven’s piano sonatas. The allegro movements receive fewr crotchets per minute than the Baroque tempo ordinario. Which sources tells you that allegro tempo from 1800 was slower than 1700 tempo ordinario?
I do not know whether it was a fluke or what but she sang the excerpt from the E maj etude in the correct key, is she known to have perfect pitch?
My guess is she does have perfect pitch. Its not that uncommon among professional musicians
i wish pianists would take this message to heart and slow down not only the etudes but many of the codas, which are really unmusical and just a noisy blur at the tempos at which they generally played. Ballades 1 and 4 come to mind - two gorgeous pieces so often marred by rushed, unmusical codas.
Speed has become the new "musicality." I don't even listen to young players anymore. There is a gaping void in actual music making.
@@patrickstults3132 look up Kate Liu and you’ll be healed :)
Imo this is kind of an unfair generalization because the great ones where the pinnacle of their time, the purely technical were forgotten, same thing today. There are still amazing players, you just have to search for them, some of the less known that I really like are: martin garcia, kyohei sorita, sergio tiempo etc.
I wish she was my student.
A real info mine for someone participating in the 2025 Chopin Competition! Great video!
I like Dina Yoffe's balance between left and right hand very much. Something I miss in many renditions even from very renowned Pianists.
Brilliant information.
Having done some composition, I must say, putting in articulation markings as a composer, generally you really mean it. You are saying what you want to hear. The notes are often not enough. Every pianist should pay attention. Of course you CAN change from it - even the composer-pianist did this sometimes (I have heard Rachmaninov playing differently from his own dynamic markings for example) - but it has to be mindful and deliberate, having looked at the composer's markings and saying "no, I understand, but I feel it THIS way".
Specifically LLang , he is way too fast. Don’t get me wrong, he is amazing on earth.
He would be even better on mars? Haha sorry just kidding
Yeah these judges always claim they care about the “music” and “meaning” and not the tempo and that they prefer exciting playing with inaccuracies over boring perfect playing….
And then they pick as the finalists the most predictable cookie cutter international style perfect players they can find 😂
@@leaguenoob3085 kind of true, yeah. I suppose we should look at how Dina Yoffe voted to know for sure. Also, if everyone or almost everyone is playing a bit too fast, she’s still forced to pick among the best of those! But my sense is that what you describe is a product of imperfect voting systems that tend to favor an inoffensive standard. Averaging systems tend to weed out distinctiveness, since different elements of distinction in an artist appeal differently to different judges. Just an idle theory though; I haven’t studied it.
@@benlawdyI have a feeling that your ‘idle theory’ is right.
@@benlawdy in a lot of competitions the voting system is such that you don't win by having the most 'fantastic, what an artist'-scores, but the least 'I hate this'-scores.
You don't win by convincing jury members, but by not offending any.
i agree with your comment 100%
The issue of tempo comes down , at least for me, to the fact that if you play too fast, you miss the harmonic shifts that chopin pioneered. Growing up playing all the rapis tempi, i always peacticed slowly. I noticed harmonies that are missed when plated too fast, and the audience of course misses it entirely. Why would chooin write such gorgeous harmonies only to not allow any one ti hear them, except for the practicing studrnt?
So i have bevome avfan of playinf yhem slower. This anger a lot of trained pianists, and i am pretty sure why. They trained very hard to yave a superior technique, and no one wants to hear they wasted their time. Their identity as a performing artisy is based on the fact they can play faster and louder on the the mist difficult pieces.
Hi Ben - I have found the best etudes recording I ever did hear - Paul Badura - Skoda - ruclips.net/video/acynthfRX0M/видео.html
What are the thoughts that maybe chopin etudes are played twice as fast as it should be?
I have been convinced that the tempo markings with metronome indication is impossible to attain so it cannot be correct.
So what if people made a rubato in winter wind? Nobody follows the score 100% accurately and chopen himself also wouldn't
Not everyone can afford to study with a jury member of Chopin but it is dangerous to let people who don't understand it judge.
It is very ugly to reduce them to "youtubeists" it has a disrespectful connotation and there's nothing wrong with being inspired by great artist one can find on RUclips especially since most people can't afford 700$ masterclasses where jury members teach.
Also, if she is someone who rates one rubato that she dislikes as unacceptable she doesn't value talent and shouldn't be a judge.
Some people don't have the best professors who could teach them to fix the smallest of errors that is this rubato (not to say that it isn't false to never play that which isn't in the score because it shows terrible understanding of 1. What Chopin would want given his known opposite advice to his students 2. What it is tobe an artist)
But more importantly she is dangerous because the purpose of chopin competition is to find a true artist true talent and maybe talent like that hasn't had the means to the best-- most expensive -- education so to punish them for not knowing everything - especially in this case when they say someone admirable do it - is literally losing sight of the most important part of judging
On that note thank you so much @benlawde for providing free knowledge to people who would love to work with these big artists but couldn't, you're not just a RUclipsr this provides so much value to people. Thank you.
Too bad we couldn’t see her hands
You should do a video together with Wim Winters about tempo reconstruction. We might all get some intresting points.
A couple of weeks ago you told me you didn’t have a dog in the fight over Whole Beat Metronome Practice. But this video is so much about WBMP! Surprised you didn’t mention it.
Bit of a disservice to viewers not to state the obvious.
@@MyMusicGenesis still no horse in the race, no dog in the fight, etc. Curious about WBMP but it’s not something I know enough about to allude to in this interview with Dina Yoffe! I also don’t believe that her general claim that pianists play faster today than in Chopin’s time is necessarily evidence of or even related to the WBMP thesis.
@@benlawdy Considering the ever-present arguments against the obvious: that Single Beat speeds ARE possible (they're often not), and that they were even MORE possible on historical instruments (not true)...the content of this video is 100% related to WBMP.
Who's gonna tell Dina Yoffe that she's playing too slow? (She's not. She's playing sensitively, artistically, and beautifully. But it's under Single Beat tempo. And would have to be even slower on a period instrument.)
All of your recent YT content is around this. You're curious about it, so learn about it. You're in the music ed space, and your viewers expect expertise.
@@MyMusicGenesis Is this really necessary? Your tone is uncalled for. Most of us are not coming here to nitpick the details in the weeds. And I’d say Ben’s expertise speaks for itself. Your pretension does as well.
@@nickwilson7697 Tempo is one of (if not THE) most critical choices a performer of this repertoire can make. It's not nitpicking, it's not details in the weeds. It's the forest.
Pretension is talking around the issue without addressing the elephant in the room, which is that modern metronome interpretations destroy creativity rather than enhance it.
I'd say on this issue Ben's expertise does not speak for itself since he chooses not to speak on the subject.
Speaking out on an important topic when few others choose to doesn't make someone pretentious. Courageous maybe. I'll go with that. But thanks.
@@MyMusicGenesisDon’t be rude. Ben has a great channel that is interesting and informative. He has really engaging guests. It is perfectly fine to bring up WBMP and other ideas but perhaps lose the disdain in your suggestion.
The offer is there Ben. I think you should do a video discussing WBPM with Wim. I would have thought this was a topic you would jump at considering the content of this channel .ruclips.net/video/X0TXsrn-Rv8/видео.htmlsi=4WRRDeanGE3r-Oow
@robinthomsoncomposer. If there is a discussion, I hope that Wim Winters respects Ben Laude more than he respects some others. Comments Wim Winters finds annoying because the content is irrefutable, tend to disappear from his channel. Even I, with my moderate level of knowledge, find a number of errors and some manipulations in his videos. Wim Winters is more often manipulative than scientific.
Why do we keep calling him a Polish composer? He was half-French and lived his entire mature life in Paris.
@@NewMusic.FreshIdeas because he was born and raised in Poland and identified as Polish
His body is in Pere Lachaise, Paris. He had the French spirit and blood as much as Polish. He was European and French/Polish.
@ “French/Polish pan-European composer” doesn’t quite roll off the tongue. ;) Of course it’s a testament to his greatness that different nations want to claim him as their own. But France was a cosmopolitan capital of the 19th Century, which paradoxically resists a narrowing of national identity, as you suggest (indeed, he is “European”… but then, after the 20th century, to be European spilled over into America through more forced exiles, so why can’t America claim him a little bit too… maybe just 1-2%? We have Garrick after all;).
In other words, to be French is to be more than French, especially in post revolutionary Paris. An imperial capital, unlike Warsaw - embattled and victims of imperialism, which makes claims to nationalism sharper (and arguably more warranted). Any national designation is limiting on some level, of course, but I would still call Rachmaninoff a “Russian” composer rather than “Russian American.” Of course it’s not an exact parallel (he didn’t have an American father and fled from a place of privilege), but his late works have plenty of American influences as much as they preserve a longing for his homeland. It’s conventional to consider where someone grew up and where their “soul” resides - and for Chopin the answer is Poland, which he had to leave and never return only out of professional and political necessity.
IMO the video should be titled "What if you played "black key" on the white keys in the Chopin Competition?" 🙃
@@Zympans I could work on my clickbait game for sure
If Chopin heard this woman (or any other pianists that try to dissect and analyse the music "intellectually") talk he will probably say "WTF are you talking about? Just play the damn thing!" When Liszt purportedly was sight-reading Chopin's etude, Chopin wrote "I wish I could steal his way of playing my etudes." Liszt just played. No dissection or analysis.
@@vavahlavulva4370 Chopin and Liszt were both teachers who dissected and analyzed music constantly. And even if what you’re saying is true, who cares? If it’s helpful for us today to dissect and analyze music today, then it’s worthwhile.
@@benlawdy 90.5% of the audience don't know what the hell is going on. Who are we kidding? That is why Yuja and Lang2 are up there. And yes they did dissect and analyse music but definitely not the way these pseudos are doing.
Just read the book “Chopin the Teacher as seen by his Pupils”…Chopin dissected a lot and was quite strict according to his students…😊
Great video as usual... however - there is no such thing as 'too fast', Ben - only 'too slow' - as my teacher/friend Peter Feuchtwanger said - the Russians tend to play everything too slow... (obviously he was talking about slow movements)
Earl Wild was famously the fastest of all modern virtuosi...
No polish composer but french composer. Chopin has never been polish but french. His father was french so was his mother by his wedding. You have to verify his passeport were is indicated : born of french parents.