Stupid Boxed Sets: Boulez Complete Works
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- Опубликовано: 21 сен 2023
- The issue here is not so much that the 13-CD DG box of Boulez's complete works is stupid in itself, although you could make that argument on many levels, but rather that DG reissued this stuff at least two more times in larger Boulez collections. How many copies of this stuff does any sane person want?
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I guess we can safely assume there won't be a "Boulez for Beginners" video.😞
HAHAHAAAAA
Sure there will. It just won't have any recommendations.
Now, there's a dry wit! Ha-ha-ha!
Repons and notations
There are definitely more than six of us, even in the comment section alone. Boulez is similar to Mahler insofar as both were primarily admired as conductors in their lifetimes. Boulez' compositions will be appreciated more in the future, though it may take some time.
Protons will decay before that happens. You heard it here first.
The Boulez ‘Sur incices’ album from 2000 on DG won the 2000 Prix Caecilia and a Gramophone Award in 2001 and this record is indeed a ‘smoker’, as Dave would say. I don’t care for some Boulez/Boulez music on Erato either, but some of his (late) music is definitely worth the effort.
Would you make an exception in the case of the early work, Sonata No. 2?
Sur incises is a terrific piece.
I was fortunate enough to see Boulez conduct it.
I care ! I'm one of those six people who love Boulez's music! 😉 ( and it's true !🤣 )
Your necessary aclaration says it all. 😂😂
Sorry, I couldn't resist!!! Of course every one of us like what we like.
I’ve watched enough Dave to chalk his distaste for Boulez up to personal preference rather than prejudice, but I admit the whole thing is pretty comical. A box set of Boulez is targeted to a niche audience within a niche audience within a niche audience. What fraction of one percent of the public would pay hundreds of dollars for a CD box set of any sort, much less modernist classical?
As a collector, I have this box set. therefore, I am one of the chosen ones. However, I listened to a few things during the reception. However, since then, nothing at all. Interesting thing, kent nagano, in Montreal, included Boulez in his programs some timed between standard repertoire. It was audacious, but also it was an interesting social study, to see the reaction of the public, not very familiar with this repertoire. Our ears DON'T lie! it was screamingly true on these occasions.
With all due respect to the publics’ ears, I’d prefer to listen with my own. They’re just as fond of Haydn as they are of Luigi Nono. I’m grateful they’re as open as they are.
Same here, and I'm lucky enough to have heard him conduct many of his own works.
I have a deep love and fascination for Boulez's music, particularly its beauty and the frequent voluptuousness it exudes. Speaking of "Pli selon pli," Robert Craft once stated, "No living composer rivals [Boulez] in creating enchanting instrumental colors." Charles Rosen has hailed him as "“the master of iridescent sonorities.” (Forgive my quotes as they don't prove anything, it's just my enthusiasm for Boulez showing through.)
I would rather hear a box set of Boulez than a box set of someone like Couperin. He seems like a musician's musician more than someone who will appeal to most audiences or your typical classical music critic. There are certainly musicians outside of the classical world who have been his influenced by his work, and I don't know how many of the 20th century composers can make that claim.
I'm proud to be one of the six. But I kind of get it with respect to the piano sonatas which are dry as dust - three pieces which never should have been written. Pli selon Pli, Eclat and In Memoriam Maderna are all very colourful and fine.
If CANCRIZAN gets wind of this box...we are all doomed!!!
If Cancrizans got wind of this "review", it would be burned to ashes!
Are you kidding?!?!?! I LOVE this set! I don't like everything in there (Structures, Livre pour quatuor), but Derives, Sur Incises, Repons? Amazing music. And I used to say he was irrelevant before he died!
He's still irrelevant.
@@DavesClassicalGuide 🤣🤣🤣
@@DavesClassicalGuide Chacun a son gout
Indeed. It’s assertion not argument. Plainly it is not irrelevant, simply because Dave says so. @@armandobayolo3270
@@DavesClassicalGuide saying boulez is irrelevent because people dont write serial music is like saying john cage is irrelevent because people dont compose with cactus'. Many manyyyy artists have been influenced and had their perspective positively changed by listening to his works even if they havent replicated it exactly, similar to cage. He self titled as an extremist and you have to view him that way, not alongside other composers.
and to me, the sound worlds he makes are fun, interesting, and unique every time, I think anyone with an interest in sound owes it to themselves to delve into his catalogue and see what is possible compositionally and acoustically, and to really reap the sounds of pure atonality
I didn't realize that the cohort I belong to had only six members. Could've sworn it was above twenty.
Count me proudly in the six as well. An important and extremely enjoyable composer, whatever the merits of this latest reboxing of his works.
When I heard Boulez's Répons at the Park Avenue Armory some years ago, there were indeed only six of us. But we six were all cloned by AI so it appeared we were really 600 or so, which really beefed up the standing ovation at the end. That night Matthias Pintscher took the very effective step of programming the piece twice, and re-seating the audience after intermission so all six of us got a different antiphonal perspective.
On the other hand I recall a program at Carnegie under David Robertson, where we six heard the Rituel in Memoriam Bruno Maderna (wonderful antiphonal effects with various ensembles situated at all levels around the hall) and the orchestral Notations. During the latter, an audience member who was not one of the six loudly exited the hall at orchestra level slamming the door behind him. At which Robertson turned around and waved "bye-bye" to the poor offended critic. It was very funny.
Even if there are only six of us, it's like what people say of the Velvet Underground: they had few fans, but many of those fans went on to be in significant and popular bands. (Full disclosure: I am not a composer) Boulez's influence may be felt before his works become standard.
Why not put together a box set of great conductors and their own compositions...one conductor to a cd. It is surprising how many recordings can be dug up. (I would not include transcriptions). Then we can move on to soloists and their compositions (such as schnabel's atonal symphony).
And in the liner notes they can regale us with the list of works that were never recorded.
Preach it brother!...Amen 👍
I guess I'm the seventh person who loves the music of Boulez. I think my cat loves it even more.
How many box sets of Boulez does a sane person want? I have this one and I enjoy it-make of that what you will. As for the previous box sets, I figure I don't need them, but I can only imagine reissuing their content in a single box must have made sense commercially. But had I known about them when they came out, I might have bought them. After all, I wouldn't have known DG would have released the complete works in a single box down the road. I'm not after collecting performance after performance of this or that work; unless I find different performances of a particular work illuminating of each other, I'm happy with one version. There's too much music out there to spend hours and hours listening to different versions of Rachmaninoff's Second Piano Concerto.
There’s only five discs of Boulez in the big Boulez the Conductor box. So you certainly don’t get all the 13 discs that are in the box in the video. Whether that’s a good thing or not is another question!
Agree with you on both points. The Complete Boulez box has a lot of licensing from other labels, including for some important works (just to emphasise, I don’t like everything he did, but several of the licensed things there are rather important)
These are important comments above. I can see, say, one arguing that the 20th century cube is stupid in light of the Conductor mega box that came out just a few years later. But this Boulez as composer box is an entirely different product, and is mostly not duplicative.
It's duplicative enough.
Maybe they have multiple versions of the same pieces? Even with the three-disc Webern set, they had to pad the third disc out with his Bach and Schubert orchestrations.
@@DeflatingAtheism Not in this case. A lot of the CDs, as written above, are licensed from other labels (or culled from other DG releases that are no included in either Boulez box). 5 of the discs are in both Boulez boxes, and 7 are not. All discs contain unique works.
I'd say DG are geniuses! They made you get the same stuff three times when you don't even like it! If they had just done a big box to begin with then most wouldn't bother with the others if they came later.
Very true. Evil geniuses.
As a composer I can tell you, we can be incredibly "perfectionistic" (that is, insecure and vain) for the silliest reasons. Modern composers are a strange spieces.
Yes Dave, I couldn't agree more. One year after my birth (1970) then French president Pompidou asked Boulez to found an institution for research in music. So Boulez got his Institut de recherche et coordination acoustique/musique (IRCAM). It meant both survival of him and the modernist impression of what music should sound like. The fact that Pompidou waited for years to succeed De Gaulle fustrated him greatly and thus something like the Centre Pompidou got the IRCAM next to it. That was karma alright.
It wasn't karma, it was revenge.
@@ThreadBomb Rather stay Buddhist about it 🙂
Nice to know I'm part of the six. And to know there's another fan on this very channel.
Not many people read Spinoza either.
The funny thing is that I also read Spinoza ! I have one bilingual edition of his "ethics" book in french and latin. 😊
Which works by Pierre Boulez do you prefer?
@laurentwatteau8835 I'm not all that big on the solo piano music. But favorite scores include Le Marteau sans maitre, Pli selon pli, Le Soleil des eaux, Cummings ist der Dichter, and sur Incises, the last of which may be my favorite.
@@laurentwatteau8835 Unfortunately, I've never read Spinoza, but writers I admire have. At 76, I have to take him up soon if I'm going to read him at all.
@@steveschwartz8944 It's not the kind of book you read laughing from start to finish though 😃 By the way, I'm 49...
I think that Handel was doing all of those 'Thou art gone up' versions for practical reasons, different singers and voice types being available at different times. Bass, alto. I could be wrong.
As far as Boulez the composer goes, if Tinnitus Classics launches a White Elephant series, this box would be a flagship release. (Speaking as one who is happy to have complete Webern and Varese boxes.)
Hmm Mr Bailey, I wonder if you are ultimately comfortable with that comment (you obviously know a lot). If you like Webern and Varese I can’t imagine you’d be so dismissive of Boulez. Listening to sur incises now, maybe a good idea. There is no White Elephant in the room here.
Putting aside the stupidity of repeated reissues of the same material, I find a boxed set of Boulez's complete works to be quite convenient. It makes it that much easier to avoid them all at once, rather than as separate items.
I don't agree with you, but I had a good laugh at your clever joke.
I bet any Roger Norrington box would qualify as a stupid boxed set. :)
That's not stupid, it's criminal.
Haha 😂
@@DavesClassicalGuideNow, here’s a thought: A box of Norrington conducting Boulez!
Boulez Whoulez? Schmoulezzzzzzz
Love this video Dave, Boulez singlehandedly killed academic music by making it purely formulaic and taking the dogma of the second Viennese school as something that needs “improving”. Even towards the end of his life when he began conducting Zappa he frequently cringed when others brought up his juvenile statements as a young composer in Darmstadt.
EMI had a series of composers interpreting their own works lots of time ago. Hope Warner reissues it.
I made a video about it. Historical stuff.
I bought THIS one, after thinking about buying all the others BECAUSE throughout composition school, life, & all of that, I was CONSTANTLY being told that while Schoenberg, et al, followed their serialized concepts, PIERRE BOULEZ claimed none of them went far enough -- that only HE brought music to the heights it was forever destined to reach. So, in the back of my mind, always, I felt obligated to hear some Boulez SOME day. The other reason was Boulez's constant putting down of every composer and musician in the world, stating that he was the only intelligent living musician. Well, I finally did begin listening to one of the pieces, after buying this. Come to think of it, I streamed it. The box still sits on my shelf, untouched. I also read Rimsky-Korsakov's treatise on orchestration a few times, even writing it down again in my own words. His first comment is that amateur composers FIRST "discover" the percussion section and begin using every percussion instrument throughout everything. Later, they discover the harp and write nothing without constant harp glisses. Whatever work of Boulez's I began with, that's what he did. A few squeaks with percussion people tinging and banging things throughout. I thank you for this enightening video as it spares me the need to hear the entire boxed set!
It sounds like DG thinks Boulez fans are suckers. Are they right?
I understand that Messiaen was embarrased by this student of his who not only stunk as a composer but had no problem interrupting performances of Stravinsky's works.
At least his wife had the good sense (and taste) to perform the fabulous Second sonata.
Interesting, as I have a sense you like avant garde music. To say Boulez’s music “stunk” is quite a strong thing to say. In what sense does it stink? Just curious
To my mind, Boulez was trying too hard to push the envelope (maybe for ideological reasons), so it sounds very erratic. @@murraylow4523
Does that mean that Boulez didn't shower for a few days when he was in the process of composing? BTW, it's "stank" in past tense, and Boulez' music didn't and doesn't stink.
Well I’m glad to hear that. @@grafplaten
I think this box will be used in prisons, and they will play it on repeat when a criminal goes into isolation...
I’d prefer it to Elgar
And I am a part of the billions who do not like him. What a waste of compositional paper-but not a waste of my dollars to buy this...
Billions huh?
Yeah; if billions could stomach listening to his music. But don't give up hope Murray; aliens might still like him...
Lol. Billions don’t care much about *any* so called classical music, whether Boulez or even Mahler or Elgar. They play classical music here in London Underground stations to try and deter youth from hanging around (we are talking Vivaldi and similar here) @@bloodgrss
You mean there are really six of us!
So imagine murray; if they played Boulez in the Underground, it would kill their ridership totally...@@murraylow4523
Pierre Boulez, who, after hearing the twenty-one repetitions (Symphony No. 3 (Górecki)of an A-major chord at the end of the symphony, loudly exclaimed: "Merde!" . I think he was thinking about his own music compared with this masterpiece. Well another narcissist.
Just because different people like different things doesn’t make them narcissists…
I don’t mind the Gorecki, but can see why somebody with different taste might not like it at all. I mean I don’t like a lot of John Adam’s later music, but that is, of course a matter of taste, as many do.
I accept all opinions , yours and Boulez's . His loudly expression speaks clearly about him , his personality and his efforts to understand the others. Disorder such as a "pervasive pattern of grandiosity", which is characterized by feelings of entitlement and superiority, arrogant or haughty behaviors, and a generalized lack of empathy and concern for others. The problem , for me is that is music is like his personality. If you like it its more than ok for me but i am out of that club@@murraylow4523
Górecki makes it work, Boulez doesn't.
What do you mean, by “makes it work”? Personally I found that symphony, despite the harrowing subject matter, ultimately a bit boring. But as I just said that’s just me. @@aaronrabushka2180
I listened to your critique of M. Boulez work and was intrigued. I enjoyed his Ring but was not acquainted with any of his compositions. For this reason felt that I should listen to some of his works before commenting. I now have. What a load of worthless old crap- I should at least tell you what I listened to but, to be frank, I can’t be bothered to shut down the RUclips window in order to go back and check Spotify. This noise is the musical (and I use the term loosely) equivalent of the story “The Emperor’s New Clothes”. Thank you for saving me from wasting any more time his decompositions.
Ugh. I just can't imagine anyone listening to this entire set!! Random noises...not much else. OK in small doses.
I've been through my phase of forcing myself to listen to this stuff and appreciate it. At this point in my life, I just want to listen to music that sounds good to my ears, and I truly enjoy.
Yes, yes, At this late point in my life, I have too little time to hear the true, the lovely, the charming, the piquant, and the GREAT music to bother taking on musical esoterica of zilch appeal. @@LyleFrancisDelp
There is too much Handel and Cherrubini still to hear (or to hear adequately) and so much else besides to bother with 1950s through 1970s twee garbage posing a nutrients.
@@geraldparker8125 YES!!! Exactly.