What are your thoughts on this? Would you rather buy a cooled camera with smaller sensor, or a larger sensor but uncooled camera if they were the same price? Support me on Patreon!: www.patreon.com/cuivlazygeek
I agree with your advices, Cuiv! Unfortunately I have chosen uncooled versions (178mm, 585 mc) so far, because of financial reasons. :) When I will average, I will buy a cooled camera. Step by Step, because my actual priority is going for the AM3 mount first. :D
I also started off with an uncooled OSC camera which was nice but I was never able to calibrate it really nicely and switched to a cooled mono later on which was kind of a relief in my workflow. However, the biggest step actually was the first try of narrowband filters.
Hi Cuiv! Another great video! You'll see a more dramatic difference with a cooled camera when shooting narrowband (in a light polluted area such as Tokyo). The reason is twofold: (a) Obviously when shooting broadband the dominant noise source is light pollution, as you mentioned in the video. But that's not necessarily true with narrowband filters. The narrowband filters reduce the light pollution noise to be much more in line with other noise sources such as thermal noise and read noise. (b) When imaging in narrowband, your subexposures will be naturally longer. So for the same total integration, you'll have fewer subexposures, thus lowering the read noise contribution (albeit indirectly). So what's left is the thermal noise. And that is helped a lot by cooling. So in summary, you'll see the biggest improvement by cooling the camera in light polluted areas when you shoot in narrowband. Using narrowband filters reduce the light pollution directly, and reduce the read noise indirectly. What's left is the thermal noise which is sensitive to camera sensor cooling.
Having used my DSLR for over 10 years, switching to a cooled astro cam was such a massive improvement in my capture process. I used to dedicated 45-60 minutes every session for dark frames but no more! With that said, I've gotten some amazing images with an uncooled DSLR. Having used it for so long, I was used to all the little quirks of capturing and processing and it worked for me for a long time. And I figured 10 years with a DSLR was long enough before I decided to switch to an astrocam. Very informative video, Cuiv!
Well, depends on the camera, too. I have bought an ASI294MC Pro, and i still have to shoot as many darks as with my DSLR. Then there's the fact that Dual-NB look much (very much) cleaner when used with the DSLR, because the Light/Flat Output of the 294MC are quite unusable in the red and green channels. I used to extract the blue channel from debayered master flats and use that for calibration, but it's still miscolored in heavily stretched lights. Time to settle on a more recent model...
@@makrospex Do you have a Dark library? Being able to create a dark library was my favorite part of getting a cooled camera because of the time savings. I have a 533MC Pro, and haven't had any issues using a dual-NB filter. Are you using the same filter for your DSLR and 294MC pro? Or are they two different products? Just wondering if maybe you have a filter that's messing with your colors.
@@Naztronomy Yes, with this camera it's obligatory to use dark frames, as well as flat darks (or was it dark flats?), because of amp glow (which your 533 does not show) and dark currents. It's a well known problem with the Sensor of the 294MC, intoducing an "Elaton effect". The filter is OK, i checked back with the manufacturer. The 533MC doesn't show these kind of artifacts. Otherwise, the 294MC is ahead of the DSLR in about any other aspect in astrophotgraphy.
Agree 100%! Cooled camera's make the arguably least interesting part of astrophotography (collecting calibration frames) much easier (as in not having to retake them all the time!). CS!
Hi Cuiv! I would have to agree that cooled is the way to go for deep sky photography as you have to swamp out the signal noise to pull out the faint details. When the sensor is not cooled, it is more difficult due to the camera producing more thermal and electronic noise masking the wanted signal you are trying to capture. I figured this out when shooting Nebulae with my DSLR and could not understand why the images just did not look as good as cooled cameras. Now that I know this and I want every camera cooled unless I plan do to planetary photography as there is plenty of signal so the noise is very low. I now even cool my experimental cameras and that makes a huge difference! Thanks for the video and clear skies!
Another excellent video Cuiv. I have often wondered about trying something similar. What would also be an interesting experiment would be to compare the value of different negative (-5,-10,-15,-20) temperatures. When I first started I used to run at the lowest temperatures I could achieve at up to 90% power. However that meant having multiple sets of darks for different times of the year. Soon got wise to that!! I now use -15C and can achieve that all year round here in northern England. We don’t get proper astronomical darkness at this latitude in June July so then not really an issue as very little imaging done. Keep up the superb content and thank you
I have also wondered why he shoots at only -10. I run my 2600MC Pro at -20c most of the year, but I can’t quite get down there in the hottest months. I don’t THINK it would be a big deal to have a summer temp and a winter temp. I just shoot lights, flats and Bias, no darks. But if there is no appreciable difference between -10 and -20, I could shoot at -10 and not have to worry about it. Of course, I shoot in a Bortle 4/5 zone, so it might make more of a difference for me than Quiv…
If you take darks in April and October (every 6 months) you can have your darks prepped for both summer temps and winter temps. I run -10 during summer, but sometimes I need to go lower than -10 for consistency so in winter you could do -20
@@ColeRees Hi, yes agree and if I had more imaging time from late May to early August it would be well worth the time doing that. It's just been a better work around for me to do my annual set of darks & bias frames at the beginning of the September and that does me through to the following mid May time. I just was wondering if Cuiv might find a similar difference in noise levels between -10 and -20 Celsius?? I suspect not as most cooling v noise plots show an exponential(ish) improvement with more severe cooling. Clear skies :)
@@stephenthexton7056 the difference between -10 and -20 is entirely dependent on the camera sensor. I use -10 on my 294mm pro, while one of our other members uses -20 on is 1600gt to get his noise where he likes it. The QHY 268M performs best at -15 or better. I shoot -10 for the QHY but I think I’m going to go up to -15. Test it yourself by running a Nina sequence
I'm just after first night with my 533MC-P and it's waaay easier to get good looking picture compared to DSLR. First of all it works with NINA a lot better - my Nikon was disconnecting from time to time and I was so annoyed with this that I decided to buy intervalometer and skip connecting it with the PC. Now it works and I can use sequence manager for example. Pictures of course also looks better with the cooled sensor - and what you mentioned about darks and biases also came into my mind. Square sensor is not that bad either - especially for a more or less newbie like me - it's much easier to frame the picture without a need of electronic rotator. The best buy of my astro gear so far (along with ioptron cem26p mount ofc)
@Cuiv, The Lazy Geek Why not determine the amount of noise in two stacks quantitatively? Select the same portion of the background in two images and do a statistics analysis on it. The standard deviation will be the noise in that region.
I used to use a 178 but calibrating the glow with darks was so difficult. I now use a 585 (SV705) and I don't do darks anymore. I only use bias and I have a master for two gain settings. Dithering does the rest. I'm impatient so I only do a few hours and I don't struggle with noise.
I'm not sure about the _automatic_ background extraction, but with the dynamic background extraction you can get massive differences in noise by tweaking the settings, like tolerance and shadows relaxation, etc. I did some messing with it a few weeks ago and I just kept pumping out different different versions of the file with different values; and the differences were more extreme than the differences in your images here. I don't know exactly how ABE works, but it could be possible to get a better image with DBE on the uncooled camera, than with ABE on a cooled camera. Or maybe get the same result in both with a bit of tweaking. But it's really interesting to see a direct comparison like this. I'd like to pick up a cooled camera when my wallet permits it.
Background extraction should not affect the amount of noise. Tolerance and Shadow relaxation parameters are used to calculate sample brightness by including or excluding certain pixels in the calculation. They don't affect the actual background subtraction math. What you saw as a massive difference in noise is most likely due to the change in the screen transfer function and how much it stretches a linear image before and after background extraction.
@@Nabby13 You could be right. I'm not an expert by any means. But I did apply the same histogram transformation to both and they still looked different, but I suppose it could just be more colour noise making the noise look noisier.
While for getting a better image, DBE is the way to go (especially starless DBE), as Nabby mentions, background extraction doesn't affect the amount of noise!
The Peltier cooler died on my SX M25C and I didn't notice for a couple of weeks. Yes the images were noisier without the cooler - but the effect was a lot less than I would have thought.
Cuiv I think that's an excellent demonstration ( as usual) - and I totally agree with you that astro is all about taking a series of small steps to improve your images. For my images in my light polluted skies my next step will be to move from my full frame modded DSLR to a smaller, dedicated cooled camera such as the ZWO 533MC Pro. A modified DSLR makes and excellent value starting point for astro imaging though, and I will be keeping my DSLR so that I can run 2 imaging setups at the same time :)
Yes I agree, I'm mainly a Solar imager and I use a fan assisted cooler module on my Player One cameras, that drop the sensor temperature by an appreciable a amount on the warmer days or on longer sessions
I was pretty shocked when you show the image comparision of cooled vs uncooled images, because I was supposing to see more background noise difference but it was also an object details difference, which is more important! And for me your last sentence that you would go even with smaller sensor like 533 but cooled than with APS-C DSLR uncooled is the most valuable sentence in this summary. Thank you!
Happy to be of help Mateusz! Please note that after this video I was told of potential vibration issues with cooled cameras and high focal lengths, and just released an additional video!
Hi Cuiv. I love your videos as they are very informative. Im currently using the ZWO 585 uncooled camera and im very happy with it, but having to take the darks and flats all the time can be a bit annoying. However i have had some really good results with it. Id love a cooled camera but as you know astrophotography is a never ending blackhole that sucks alot of money from you. Anyway keep it up pal your doing a fantastic job!!
I have been contemplating the ASI585 for my C8. I have a 2600MC Pro ( which is cooled) and love it (especially love that I can take dark frames later at my leisure or build a dark library) but it isn’t a great match for a longer focal length scope. The 585 would be a better match and like the fact that there is no amp glow but I don’t want to shell out a pile of money for another cooled camera (such as the ASI533 MC Pro). Still on the fence. In the meantime I guess the 2600 will be my go to camera.
I think its a little dependent on your optics speed. Maybe a RASA could take advantage of an uncooled camera but anything requiring long exposures will need that cooled element.
The sub exposure length shouldn't impact the total amount of thermal noise in the stack... The final amount of thermal noise in your stack would be the square root of the sum of the thermal noise variance in each subframe.
@@Astrobloke Yes, within an upper limit (like 10C above ambient) - but the sensor doesn't have the time to cool down between sub exposures, so after a single 10 minutes exposure, or 10*60s exposures, temp should be roughly the same
@@Astrobloke What happens during a session assuming constant outside temp: in the first x minutes (say 10 minutes) the sensor heats up to its equilibrium relative to ambient. For those first 10 minutes, a single 600s exposure would have roughly the same amount of thermal noise as a stack of 20*30s exposures (the sensor increases in temp at the same rate, maybe slightly slower with the 20 exposures, with a couple seconds between exposures). Once at equilibrium we now have the same sensor temp throughout the session, again regardless of subframe length. And the thermal noise in a stack for a sensor at constant temp T doesn't care about sub exposure length...
I'm glad I started with a cooled camera when just starting in astrophotography. That issues with darks you mentioned with a non-cooled camera seems...not optimal.
Very happy with my Altair Hypertech 183C. It is not TEC cooled, just fan cooled. Still a massive step forward from the modded DSLR I've been using for the last year or so. The fan is enough to keep the sensor at ambient temperature, and the sensor is very low noise. The fixed temperature thing doesn't bother me too much as I don't shoot darks - I find good dithering is enough to deal with fixed pattern noise. (I do still shoot flats). Eventually I will upgrade to a fully cooled, larger sensor camera, but for now I'm happy.
When i first got the zwo 1600mc years ago, i wanted to test out what all this cooling business was about. Took a whole set of darks at +10, 5, 0, and so forth. Such a big difference. Dont think id ever go uncooled unless perhaps trying to build an ultra portable rig one day.
I'm making Lights like 0.5s .. to take 60 Dark frames than takes half a minute. I can imagine that this effect of tempreature noise propagates on longer exposures more. For unguided photography you have delays between Lights. Those delays then help cool the sensor towards the ambient temperature even without fan. Maybe the new sensor like IMX585 (expensive), which has even less nosie, would make even smaller difference between cooled and uncooled.
Could you do another test with the uncooled camera and dont bother with the darks? Maybe do double the total lights exposure time to make up for it. Just wondering how much of a difference it makes and if its worth bothering with darks at all for uncooled cameras.
Hi Cuiv I went from a DSLR straight to a cooled mono camera and what a difference. I refresh my dark frame library every six months as like you say there is no need to capture the darks at same time as the lights. Totally agree that if you can afford it go for a cooled camera every time.
It is good to check what exact temperature was for uncooled tests. I did same test couple years ago, the difference was uncooled frames were taken in different day. And on ZWO ASI1600mm-pro i can definitely notice more noise when uncooled.
It's funny that you posted this video now that the northern hemisphere is warming up. Nights at 30° fighting mosquitoes are coming and with them my uncooled D5100 that usually sits 15° above ambient temperature when shooting 5 minutes exposures.
Thanks for doing this comparison. Your results were surprising. I do not currently own a cool camera. Your comparison has encouraged me to want to make that purchase. Thanks
Great informative video again Quiv ! An item that seems so obvious for us who do astrophotography for a few years now, but I remember that as I was a beginner this was an huge question, of course also due to the price difference. So I wish there was a video like this one when I started, it would saved me a lot of money. Ow and very simplistic but very well explained about the photons and electrons, perfect understandable for beginners in all kinds of photography , great job Quiv !
It would be nice if someone (maybe you) could do this experiment through a narrow band filter (maybe Ha) on a narrow band target. That way, light pollution would not be such a limiting factor to the benefit of cooling. It makes sense because you use narrow band to cope with Tokyo, right? JM2CW.
Depends on what chip the camera uses. For example, the Sony sensor in the ASI294MC has a dark current which is 8 times higher than the Sony IMX533 sensor. For instance, the uncooled version of the IMX533 at +10 degrees should perform equal to the ASI294MC cooled to -10 degrees. Therefore, is it possible to do the same test again for the ASI533 camera? I am thinking of buying one, but I am not sure if I want the cooled or the uncooled version.
Great video. If one has an uncooled camera, you can buy a phone cooler for it, this will give you an option to see if you get better results. Cooled is always better, I understand the price deference and some may not be able to afford the jump, so for 25$ or so you could add that feature, granted the in housing is better buuut its an option :)
This video surprised me, I honestly thought there was a much bigger difference! I'm curious to see the results using a narrow band filter, like an Optolong l-ultimate or an H-alpha
and also compare the results without a filter but with much longer exposure times, like 5-10 minutes, but I know that's difficult from a very bright area
What a great video mate, wow! :-D So much information for people to digest and consider, and perfect advice - well done!! I definitely agree by the way, while uncooled can give -amazing- results (I love the imx585 for this) you'll always have a higher image quality ceiling with a cooled cam! :-D
Cuiv, I agree at 100%. You pointed at a major : cooled => reproductible !!!! 👍👍👍 I'm testing now switch between mono camera and color camera ( Asi 2600MC pro /MM pro ) with excellent results, no EFW. And all images are set at 0°C cooling with the advantage of dark and bias libraries. I think I'm winning in time to process... Yes, Cuiv, I'm lazy too😉!
Cooled and never looking back! Yes you can get good images with DLRS or uncooled. But calibration files just work much better, hassle free. Was a game changer in my astro-photography.
I was wondering about this and was thinking if humidity can make a difference. But I guess temp makes up almost all the difference so you can reuse them
What are your thoughts on the lens warmers for a dslr? Thank you for the video. Only half way through and maybe you'll answer this, but i went and added now lol. Thank you
Thanks for another quality and informative video. I had a general idea as to why cooled is preferred, but you spelled it out in detail that brought me to a much better level of understanding! Was just imaging Pinwheel Gal last night. Ran my Aslar65PHQ w/ 533 for M101 and also my AskarFRA500 w/2600mc for NGC7000. A bit cool but beautiful and clear all night. I have asi294mm, asi533mc, asi2600mc, asi6200mm, all pro and I also set the temp at 14F. . My only non-pro is an asi662mc for planetary and guide cam. My others are asi120 mini and 174 mini for guide. I recently pre-ordered the asi2600MC Pro DUO so will see how that does with cooling, having an extra sensor in there. Looks like they ship in June. I live in upstate NY in urban area and have better than bortal 4, prob 3.5 or 3 so I was surprised to see the noise level in your frames. Obviously Toyko does that. You should get a place in the country dude! Thanks again for all your work. I truly value your videos as having access to a treasure trove of information that's helped me get going in this often convoluted and sometimes confusing hobby. Here's to 'the rabbit hole'!!
Hey Cuiv! My friend, did you check the ambient temperature the night you took the cooled and uncooled images? Maybe it wasn't very warm outside and so that helped the uncooled images in terms of thermal noise etc? Fascinating test, and most helpful! Thanks Cuiv, I love your intelligent and practical approach to our wonderful hobby! You are most definitely a Geek! ( and I say that as a HUGE compliment my friend!☺👍 ) Wes, Liverpool UK ( Bortle 7 )
Hi ! sorry for the thread necromancy. please would you like to reproduce the comparison with a narrowband filter, and with more titghly controlled conditions, or during a freshier night ? i leave in Britany, France, nights are quite fresh here and i'm wondering if it's worth spending +300€ in a peltier for variable star observation. thanks !
I personally would opt for cooled camera. The newer generation of low noise sensors (eg IMX571) do not need excessive cooling, but having a TEC cooled camera allows you to set the same temperature everytime. I use -5°C with my QHY268M (just to ensure it's colder than ambient in winter) which allows me to use my pre-prepared dark library each time. Whilst it's debated whether dark frames are required with this sensor, I think it's good practice to use all calibration frames where practical. In your experience, how does the noise compare between cooled and uncooled during a warm imaging session?
In the video it's mentioned an example cooling og minus 10 degrees as being a constant for the purposes of taking dark frames but isn't the camera cooling relative to the ambient temp? So -10 deg during a 10 deg night would be zero degrees and -10 on a zero degree night would be minus 20 degrees... In other words, you still need to take dark frames to match each night's variation in temp... correct? Or am I misunderstanding?
got some super black paint to test with (kinda like black 3.0) it will be brittle and not something to touch so it will require being covored when not in use
Would be interesting to compare a hypthetical ASI585MC Pro with cooling on to it with cooling off. A version without cooling is the existing ASI585MC, which seems to work quite well for deep-sky objects.
Slightly off topic, but a good place to mention this. I have two cooled cameras (ASImc-pro 2400 and 2600). When I use these on my shorter focal length scopes (
I had a look at the thread, it's indeed pretty damning! So I immediately checked my RisingCam/Touptek camera - the fan there doesn't contact the housing of the camera, is on silicon feet, and suspended by springs. The camera body does not vibrate at all! And now I'm second guessing my results back when I had the EdgeHD800 scope at F7. Was it truly my seeing that limited me? Or camera vibrations?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I had my Edge 11 for a year, and also blamed bad seeing for limited performance (in Bortle 3!), before I noticed a very bright satellite that showed an unmissable wiggle. That sent me down this rabbit hole. I talked to ASI and they sent me additional rubber washers for the bolts, but that hasn't helped. I just ordered those Noctua silicone studs and will replace the metal bolts with them this week -- fingers crossed. A weird thing which I still don't completely understand, is why I don't see the issue on my shorter focal length scopes -- one might think vibration of the camera is independent of the optics in front of it.
I'm going to make a video on this topic, this is yet another thing for us to be mindful of! Having the issue on longer focal lengths implies that it is somehow linked to resolution/pixel scale, and thus that the camera vibrations are resonating through the scope... and maybe through the OAG as well?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek If you want some examples of the problem, I'm happy to provide. I have some powerpoint slides i presented to our local AstroPhotography group on this topic. I was at NEAF and spoke with a pretty smart guy at the Celestron booth about this. He suggested one possible reason for the focal length issue has to do with the different inertias of each of my scopes. Since the 11" is heavier, and more solid, maybe the vibration shows up more in the sensor than in a lighter, looser, refractor. The ZWO booth was not very helpful, but they were mostly sales folks.
Would be nice if you would follow up with processing this image in a video. Most of my images look like this, but a talented guy like you can surely make it look great in a couple of steps in pixinsight.
I just ordered a Player One Uranus-c with fan. I will see what I can do with it. The price of a cooled camera makes no sense. TEC coolers are not expensive. Buying one feels like rewarding gouging
Hi Cuiv, Many thanks for this! For me that is a huge difference between these two pictures. What was the temperature of the camera while not cooled? I understand that there is a real advantage in TEC cooled vs fan because of the ability to reproduce the exact same temperature. But I think that a simple fan can do a great job dropping the sensor's temperature... I think I will try that this summer ...
I accidentally just ran this experiment last night when I forgot to turn my cooler back on after a glitch… We’ll see. Do you actually take bias? I usually just do dark flats.
So far I haven't bothered with a cooled camera because, living in the Canadian north woods, most nights I am shooting are 5C or less, and often well below 0C. I'd only need cooled camera for maybe mid June to end of August. But perhaps it's time to think about one. What is that blue one behind you? I don't recognize the make. (Addendum: Wait, I just searched "Cuiv blue camera" and found it in another of your videos lol.)
1:07 funny thing is the cooler and required electronics wouldn't be more than 50$ at the very most if you were to buy them yourself so there shouldn't be a high premium for the feature unless they found a way to overcomplicate a TEC.
Nice video Cuiv. I always use a cooled camera for DSOs (the ASI2600). But can I ask why you calibrated your uncooled and cooled subs differently? You used darks for the uncooled ones and biases for the cooled ones. So it’s not really a fair comparison is it? I always calibrate my subs with darks.
Good question! I've long ago stopped calibrating IMX571 images (cooled to -10C) with darks - I could not see any difference with just bias calibration, in both individual frames and stacks!
How warm was the night? (if you mentioned i must have missed it). At around +16c sensor temperature the 533/571 line of cameras produces 1e- per about a minute of exposure, which should be negligible for most skies and easy to deal with under darker skies too. Thermal noise doubles every 6 degrees so if your sensor ran at lets say ambient +10 (seems to be the case usually) and it was a warm night of more than +10c you might have had a significant amount of thermal noise in the image totaling several electrons per sub. I will say that for people in colder climates such as myself in Finland it is absolutely possible to get almost the same result with an uncooled camera because the average temperature of the imaging year is well below 0. I sometimes run without cooling just because it is colder than -10c outside and i cant be bothered to take another set of calibration frames. At those temperatures it really does not matter at all, but i agree with your conclusion of still going for the cooled camera. Not that much more expensive and it just calibrates better, so not the right place to save money IMO.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Oh yeah makes sense now how the difference was so noticeable. Prob looking at 10e- extra per sub which would be bad even for bortle 8.
How do you do 120s images in a city? I'm in London, and my camera blows out the light at around 20 seconds. Is it the filter? I only have a basic CLS filter. :)X Thank you.
I am sure that if you did this in the Tokyo summertime, you would see a huge difference. My old Nikon DSLR would give such high backgrounds on 30-degree nights, the images were almost unusable!
This is amazing! I actually just finished making an insulated housing for my Uranus-C camera with a temperature controller and a peltier cooler and I can get it below -10C! What a wild coincidence lol
@PowerScissor I guess it's cooling the sensor because the temperature it shows in NINA got down below -10C. I stopped my test at -10.8 but I think it could get a bit lower. The temperature probe that is supposed to be touching the camera body (I don't believe it is) reads as only like 13 degrees C though. I'm counting it as a win because of the camera temperature readout in any case
@@skyhookbix the cooler is a peltier cooler connected to a temperature control unit that you can set a specific temperature for. I designed an insulated housing to fit some pipe insulation in between the walls of the housing and the camera body, and I designed it so it could fit a PC heatsink to the peltier device.
@@trollshark6260 I've thought about trying to add cooling to my existing uncooled astro cams...but I just haven't run into a target where I wasn't happy with the resulting image and cooling the camera would make it "better". I have to admit the 2 images in this video both looked fine to me, and the cooled version wouldn't be worth any extra effort. Maybe one day, I will feel like I've maxed out what I can see and image uncooled, and move to a cooled setup. I also feel like in a few more years an AI will be adequately trained on enough images where there will be a one click button that will be close to the equivalent of removing the noise from Astrophotos. I mean AI noise removal is good now, and with time it will be great.
Being a Chemical Engineer I have always thought that when I have proper imaging setup, I am going to use the "exhaust" heat of the Peltier cooled camera to the front of the image train to control the dew formation by recycling the hot air from the camera fan. Do you see any likely issues here?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek What I was thinking to do is to have a functionally similar design as the existing electrically driven dew controllers, except it would derive heat from the warm air instead of electric heater. Well, it’s a thought!
question Cuiv - when you set your camera to -10C is that -10 degrees below ambient or absolute -10? I've heard claims both ways and that confuses the whole purpose...if it's -10 below ambient, that doesn't really help with flats/darks/bias as that will have to mimic your light's temperature at a later point in time (indoors or during the day). Can you set me straight on the temp setting? Thx
Do you live in Tokyo for work or family reasons? Do you ever go to any other areas of Japan to camp overnight with your equipment away from the big cities?
Thermal noise is built up over time, but it also builds up in the stack, regardless of the subframe lengths (assuming the total stack integration is the same)!
Hello Cuiv.. Do you have any specific reason for choosing -10 degrees as your sensor temperature? I see many astrophotographers using that value of -10. If I am not incorrect, even using other temperatures may be would suit you with the light pollution, right? Secondly, what is the lowest temperature that can the cooled camera reach? What if my ambient temperature is -15deg? Would it cool to more than 30 degrees below -15 ? Thank you Ashvn
I'm assuming you did the screen stretch separately for each of the 2 pictures. You probably autostretched it so that the noise looked the same in both images, although in fact the cooled image got more contrast amplification in order to make that happen. Is that the case? What happens if you apply the same screen stretch to both?
It depends - for planetary it should be a great scope! For deep sky, you need a great mount, little wind, and great seeing - so only if your conditions support it.
It's 30 * 120s so one hour of integration time for each cooled scenario and uncooled scenario. Obviously a continuous 20-30 minute single exposure in broadband is impossible in Tokyo.
What are your thoughts on this? Would you rather buy a cooled camera with smaller sensor, or a larger sensor but uncooled camera if they were the same price?
Support me on Patreon!: www.patreon.com/cuivlazygeek
I would take the cooled camera for all the reasons you laid out here. Being able to shoot darks when you want is the best.
Cooled cameras always win. Dithering takes it to a whole nother level! Imaging in the Winter helps too 😂
I agree with your advices, Cuiv! Unfortunately I have chosen uncooled versions (178mm, 585 mc) so far, because of financial reasons. :) When I will average, I will buy a cooled camera. Step by Step, because my actual priority is going for the AM3 mount first. :D
I also started off with an uncooled OSC camera which was nice but I was never able to calibrate it really nicely and switched to a cooled mono later on which was kind of a relief in my workflow. However, the biggest step actually was the first try of narrowband filters.
Great advice Cuiv! I’m going cooled for my first dedicated astro camera. Thanks for another informative and well done video!
Hi Cuiv! Another great video!
You'll see a more dramatic difference with a cooled camera when shooting narrowband (in a light polluted area such as Tokyo). The reason is twofold:
(a) Obviously when shooting broadband the dominant noise source is light pollution, as you mentioned in the video. But that's not necessarily true with narrowband filters. The narrowband filters reduce the light pollution noise to be much more in line with other noise sources such as thermal noise and read noise.
(b) When imaging in narrowband, your subexposures will be naturally longer. So for the same total integration, you'll have fewer subexposures, thus lowering the read noise contribution (albeit indirectly).
So what's left is the thermal noise. And that is helped a lot by cooling.
So in summary, you'll see the biggest improvement by cooling the camera in light polluted areas when you shoot in narrowband. Using narrowband filters reduce the light pollution directly, and reduce the read noise indirectly. What's left is the thermal noise which is sensitive to camera sensor cooling.
Very good point on narrowband!
Having used my DSLR for over 10 years, switching to a cooled astro cam was such a massive improvement in my capture process. I used to dedicated 45-60 minutes every session for dark frames but no more!
With that said, I've gotten some amazing images with an uncooled DSLR. Having used it for so long, I was used to all the little quirks of capturing and processing and it worked for me for a long time. And I figured 10 years with a DSLR was long enough before I decided to switch to an astrocam.
Very informative video, Cuiv!
Well, depends on the camera, too. I have bought an ASI294MC Pro, and i still have to shoot as many darks as with my DSLR. Then there's the fact that Dual-NB look much (very much) cleaner when used with the DSLR, because the Light/Flat Output of the 294MC are quite unusable in the red and green channels. I used to extract the blue channel from debayered master flats and use that for calibration, but it's still miscolored in heavily stretched lights. Time to settle on a more recent model...
@@makrospex Do you have a Dark library? Being able to create a dark library was my favorite part of getting a cooled camera because of the time savings.
I have a 533MC Pro, and haven't had any issues using a dual-NB filter. Are you using the same filter for your DSLR and 294MC pro? Or are they two different products? Just wondering if maybe you have a filter that's messing with your colors.
@@Naztronomy Yes, with this camera it's obligatory to use dark frames, as well as flat darks (or was it dark flats?), because of amp glow (which your 533 does not show) and dark currents. It's a well known problem with the Sensor of the 294MC, intoducing an "Elaton effect". The filter is OK, i checked back with the manufacturer. The 533MC doesn't show these kind of artifacts. Otherwise, the 294MC is ahead of the DSLR in about any other aspect in astrophotgraphy.
Agree 100%! Cooled camera's make the arguably least interesting part of astrophotography (collecting calibration frames) much easier (as in not having to retake them all the time!). CS!
Yessss!
In cloudy UK huge advantage with cooled camera ! able to take dark frame library without eating into imaging time or sleep!
Hi Cuiv! I would have to agree that cooled is the way to go for deep sky photography as you have to swamp out the signal noise to pull out the faint details. When the sensor is not cooled, it is more difficult due to the camera producing more thermal and electronic noise masking the wanted signal you are trying to capture. I figured this out when shooting Nebulae with my DSLR and could not understand why the images just did not look as good as cooled cameras. Now that I know this and I want every camera cooled unless I plan do to planetary photography as there is plenty of signal so the noise is very low. I now even cool my experimental cameras and that makes a huge difference! Thanks for the video and clear skies!
That cooled 511 is a beautiful Frankencamera, it's awesome :)
Another excellent video Cuiv. I have often wondered about trying something similar. What would also be an interesting experiment would be to compare the value of different negative (-5,-10,-15,-20) temperatures. When I first started I used to run at the lowest temperatures I could achieve at up to 90% power. However that meant having multiple sets of darks for different times of the year. Soon got wise to that!! I now use -15C and can achieve that all year round here in northern England. We don’t get proper astronomical darkness at this latitude in June July so then not really an issue as very little imaging done. Keep up the superb content and thank you
I have also wondered why he shoots at only -10. I run my 2600MC Pro at -20c most of the year, but I can’t quite get down there in the hottest months. I don’t THINK it would be a big deal to have a summer temp and a winter temp. I just shoot lights, flats and Bias, no darks. But if there is no appreciable difference between -10 and -20, I could shoot at -10 and not have to worry about it. Of course, I shoot in a Bortle 4/5 zone, so it might make more of a difference for me than Quiv…
If you take darks in April and October (every 6 months) you can have your darks prepped for both summer temps and winter temps. I run -10 during summer, but sometimes I need to go lower than -10 for consistency so in winter you could do -20
@@ColeRees Hi, yes agree and if I had more imaging time from late May to early August it would be well worth the time doing that. It's just been a better work around for me to do my annual set of darks & bias frames at the beginning of the September and that does me through to the following mid May time. I just was wondering if Cuiv might find a similar difference in noise levels between -10 and -20 Celsius?? I suspect not as most cooling v noise plots show an exponential(ish) improvement with more severe cooling. Clear skies :)
@@stephenthexton7056 the difference between -10 and -20 is entirely dependent on the camera sensor. I use -10 on my 294mm pro, while one of our other members uses -20 on is 1600gt to get his noise where he likes it. The QHY 268M performs best at -15 or better. I shoot -10 for the QHY but I think I’m going to go up to -15. Test it yourself by running a Nina sequence
I'm just after first night with my 533MC-P and it's waaay easier to get good looking picture compared to DSLR. First of all it works with NINA a lot better - my Nikon was disconnecting from time to time and I was so annoyed with this that I decided to buy intervalometer and skip connecting it with the PC. Now it works and I can use sequence manager for example. Pictures of course also looks better with the cooled sensor - and what you mentioned about darks and biases also came into my mind. Square sensor is not that bad either - especially for a more or less newbie like me - it's much easier to frame the picture without a need of electronic rotator. The best buy of my astro gear so far (along with ioptron cem26p mount ofc)
I really loved my little 533MC - and I never understood why the square sensor was so maligned!
@Cuiv, The Lazy Geek Why not determine the amount of noise in two stacks quantitatively? Select the same portion of the background in two images and do a statistics analysis on it. The standard deviation will be the noise in that region.
That's the right way to do things... but qualitative analysis does seem to speak a lot to people more than simple stdev numbers...
Your explanation has sold me on Peltier. As on old school competitive overclocker, I'm picking up what your putting down.
Nice!! I think for overclocking Peltier has been generally ruled out but it would be awesome to see a new approach :)
I used to use a 178 but calibrating the glow with darks was so difficult. I now use a 585 (SV705) and I don't do darks anymore. I only use bias and I have a master for two gain settings. Dithering does the rest. I'm impatient so I only do a few hours and I don't struggle with noise.
I'm not sure about the _automatic_ background extraction, but with the dynamic background extraction you can get massive differences in noise by tweaking the settings, like tolerance and shadows relaxation, etc.
I did some messing with it a few weeks ago and I just kept pumping out different different versions of the file with different values; and the differences were more extreme than the differences in your images here.
I don't know exactly how ABE works, but it could be possible to get a better image with DBE on the uncooled camera, than with ABE on a cooled camera. Or maybe get the same result in both with a bit of tweaking.
But it's really interesting to see a direct comparison like this. I'd like to pick up a cooled camera when my wallet permits it.
Background extraction should not affect the amount of noise. Tolerance and Shadow relaxation parameters are used to calculate sample brightness by including or excluding certain pixels in the calculation. They don't affect the actual background subtraction math. What you saw as a massive difference in noise is most likely due to the change in the screen transfer function and how much it stretches a linear image before and after background extraction.
@@Nabby13 You could be right. I'm not an expert by any means. But I did apply the same histogram transformation to both and they still looked different, but I suppose it could just be more colour noise making the noise look noisier.
While for getting a better image, DBE is the way to go (especially starless DBE), as Nabby mentions, background extraction doesn't affect the amount of noise!
This is one of your best videos!
Thank you!
Wow, thank you!
The Peltier cooler died on my SX M25C and I didn't notice for a couple of weeks. Yes the images were noisier without the cooler - but the effect was a lot less than I would have thought.
Cuiv I think that's an excellent demonstration ( as usual) - and I totally agree with you that astro is all about taking a series of small steps to improve your images. For my images in my light polluted skies my next step will be to move from my full frame modded DSLR to a smaller, dedicated cooled camera such as the ZWO 533MC Pro. A modified DSLR makes and excellent value starting point for astro imaging though, and I will be keeping my DSLR so that I can run 2 imaging setups at the same time :)
Sounds like a great plan!
Yes I agree, I'm mainly a Solar imager and I use a fan assisted cooler module on my Player One cameras, that drop the sensor temperature by an appreciable a amount on the warmer days or on longer sessions
That's a great mod there!
I’ve been running the cooled 533 behind my Zenith star 61. The final image is much cleaner then with my Canon T8i, much cleaner.
Excellent to hear!
I was pretty shocked when you show the image comparision of cooled vs uncooled images, because I was supposing to see more background noise difference but it was also an object details difference, which is more important! And for me your last sentence that you would go even with smaller sensor like 533 but cooled than with APS-C DSLR uncooled is the most valuable sentence in this summary. Thank you!
Happy to be of help Mateusz! Please note that after this video I was told of potential vibration issues with cooled cameras and high focal lengths, and just released an additional video!
Hi Cuiv. I love your videos as they are very informative. Im currently using the ZWO 585 uncooled camera and im very happy with it, but having to take the darks and flats all the time can be a bit annoying. However i have had some really good results with it. Id love a cooled camera but as you know astrophotography is a never ending blackhole that sucks alot of money from you.
Anyway keep it up pal your doing a fantastic job!!
I have been contemplating the ASI585 for my C8. I have a 2600MC Pro ( which is cooled) and love it (especially love that I can take dark frames later at my leisure or build a dark library) but it isn’t a great match for a longer focal length scope. The 585 would be a better match and like the fact that there is no amp glow but I don’t want to shell out a pile of money for another cooled camera (such as the ASI533 MC Pro). Still on the fence. In the meantime I guess the 2600 will be my go to camera.
Thank you!
Try dithering between subs and take dark flats,flats and no Darks so what the difference is , worth a shot .
I think its a little dependent on your optics speed. Maybe a RASA could take advantage of an uncooled camera but anything requiring long exposures will need that cooled element.
The sub exposure length shouldn't impact the total amount of thermal noise in the stack... The final amount of thermal noise in your stack would be the square root of the sum of the thermal noise variance in each subframe.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek not sure I agree with that as the longer your sensor is exposing the hotter it gets surely?
@@Astrobloke Yes, within an upper limit (like 10C above ambient) - but the sensor doesn't have the time to cool down between sub exposures, so after a single 10 minutes exposure, or 10*60s exposures, temp should be roughly the same
@@Astrobloke What happens during a session assuming constant outside temp: in the first x minutes (say 10 minutes) the sensor heats up to its equilibrium relative to ambient. For those first 10 minutes, a single 600s exposure would have roughly the same amount of thermal noise as a stack of 20*30s exposures (the sensor increases in temp at the same rate, maybe slightly slower with the 20 exposures, with a couple seconds between exposures). Once at equilibrium we now have the same sensor temp throughout the session, again regardless of subframe length. And the thermal noise in a stack for a sensor at constant temp T doesn't care about sub exposure length...
I'm glad I started with a cooled camera when just starting in astrophotography. That issues with darks you mentioned with a non-cooled camera seems...not optimal.
It is indeed not optimal :) But still uncooled cameras do get great results!
Excellent review as usual, thanks. Having just bought an ASI6200mm pro, I’m glad I haven’t potentially wasted my money.
Should be an excellent camera :)
Very happy with my Altair Hypertech 183C. It is not TEC cooled, just fan cooled. Still a massive step forward from the modded DSLR I've been using for the last year or so. The fan is enough to keep the sensor at ambient temperature, and the sensor is very low noise. The fixed temperature thing doesn't bother me too much as I don't shoot darks - I find good dithering is enough to deal with fixed pattern noise. (I do still shoot flats). Eventually I will upgrade to a fully cooled, larger sensor camera, but for now I'm happy.
When i first got the zwo 1600mc years ago, i wanted to test out what all this cooling business was about. Took a whole set of darks at +10, 5, 0, and so forth. Such a big difference. Dont think id ever go uncooled unless perhaps trying to build an ultra portable rig one day.
Even with a portable rig...
Another great video, with tons of information. Thank you for sharing your experience with the community.
Thank you!
I'm making Lights like 0.5s .. to take 60 Dark frames than takes half a minute.
I can imagine that this effect of tempreature noise propagates on longer exposures more.
For unguided photography you have delays between Lights. Those delays then help cool the sensor towards the ambient temperature even without fan.
Maybe the new sensor like IMX585 (expensive), which has even less nosie, would make even smaller difference between cooled and uncooled.
Could you do another test with the uncooled camera and dont bother with the darks? Maybe do double the total lights exposure time to make up for it. Just wondering how much of a difference it makes and if its worth bothering with darks at all for uncooled cameras.
Hi Cuiv
I went from a DSLR straight to a cooled mono camera and what a difference. I refresh my dark frame library every six months as like you say there is no need to capture the darks at same time as the lights. Totally agree that if you can afford it go for a cooled camera every time.
Absolutely!
It is good to check what exact temperature was for uncooled tests. I did same test couple years ago, the difference was uncooled frames were taken in different day. And on ZWO ASI1600mm-pro i can definitely notice more noise when uncooled.
It's funny that you posted this video now that the northern hemisphere is warming up. Nights at 30° fighting mosquitoes are coming and with them my uncooled D5100 that usually sits 15° above ambient temperature when shooting 5 minutes exposures.
Cooled makes a big difference vs uncooled for me in downtown Vancouver, even with lots of light pollution! I've done lots of comparisons.
Thanks Tyler! I don't think I could ever go back to uncooled!!
Thanks for doing this comparison. Your results were surprising. I do not currently own a cool camera. Your comparison has encouraged me to want to make that purchase. Thanks
Always more ways to spend money :D
Great informative video again Quiv ! An item that seems so obvious for us who do astrophotography for a few years now, but I remember that as I was a beginner this was an huge question, of course also due to the price difference. So I wish there was a video like this one when I started, it would saved me a lot of money.
Ow and very simplistic but very well explained about the photons and electrons, perfect understandable for beginners in all kinds of photography , great job Quiv !
Thanks Siegfried!
Really great video and I love how you simplified the whole subject (which can get really complicated). Keep up the great work!
Thanks Glenn!
It would be nice if someone (maybe you) could do this experiment through a narrow band filter (maybe Ha) on a narrow band target. That way, light pollution would not be such a limiting factor to the benefit of cooling. It makes sense because you use narrow band to cope with Tokyo, right? JM2CW.
I am using a cooled camera. Love it.
Bought a full frame DSLR ancillary wife fov images. What a PIA with those dark frames! Haha.
Great video.
Exactly! Those dark frames are so painful!
Depends on what chip the camera uses. For example, the Sony sensor in the ASI294MC has a dark current which is 8 times higher than the Sony IMX533 sensor. For instance, the uncooled version of the IMX533 at +10 degrees should perform equal to the ASI294MC cooled to -10 degrees. Therefore, is it possible to do the same test again for the ASI533 camera? I am thinking of buying one, but I am not sure if I want the cooled or the uncooled version.
Yet another gem! 10degC from this moment on. Thank you.
Great video. If one has an uncooled camera, you can buy a phone cooler for it, this will give you an option to see if you get better results. Cooled is always better, I understand the price deference and some may not be able to afford the jump, so for 25$ or so you could add that feature, granted the in housing is better buuut its an option :)
Yep, I've seen others do that - although then setting a target temp that stays stable is more difficult!
This video surprised me, I honestly thought there was a much bigger difference!
I'm curious to see the results using a narrow band filter, like an Optolong l-ultimate or an H-alpha
and also compare the results without a filter but with much longer exposure times, like 5-10 minutes, but I know that's difficult from a very bright area
Yeeeah I won't be wasting to much more imaging time on these tests :D
Small cooled sensors can be compensated with smaller, wider FOV telescopes!
What a great video mate, wow! :-D So much information for people to digest and consider, and perfect advice - well done!!
I definitely agree by the way, while uncooled can give -amazing- results (I love the imx585 for this) you'll always have a higher image quality ceiling with a cooled cam! :-D
Thanks so much Luke! So many nice sensors that don't have a cooled version :-(
Cuiv, I agree at 100%.
You pointed at a major : cooled => reproductible !!!! 👍👍👍 I'm testing now switch between mono camera and color camera ( Asi 2600MC pro /MM pro ) with excellent results, no EFW. And all images are set at 0°C cooling with the advantage of dark and bias libraries. I think I'm winning in time to process... Yes, Cuiv, I'm lazy too😉!
It's a great way to be lazy :)
Cooled and never looking back! Yes you can get good images with DLRS or uncooled. But calibration files just work much better, hassle free. Was a game changer in my astro-photography.
Agreed!
I was wondering about this and was thinking if humidity can make a difference. But I guess temp makes up almost all the difference so you can reuse them
What are your thoughts on the lens warmers for a dslr?
Thank you for the video. Only half way through and maybe you'll answer this, but i went and added now lol. Thank you
Yes! Lens warmers are very useful for dew, and sometimes critical... and 5V USB is easy to provide
Thanks for another quality and informative video. I had a general idea as to why cooled is preferred, but you spelled it out in detail that brought me to a much better level of understanding!
Was just imaging Pinwheel Gal last night. Ran my Aslar65PHQ w/ 533 for M101 and also my AskarFRA500 w/2600mc for NGC7000. A bit cool but beautiful and clear all night.
I have asi294mm, asi533mc, asi2600mc, asi6200mm, all pro and I also set the temp at 14F. . My only non-pro is an asi662mc for planetary and guide cam. My others are asi120 mini and 174 mini for guide. I recently pre-ordered the asi2600MC Pro DUO so will see how that does with cooling, having an extra sensor in there. Looks like they ship in June.
I live in upstate NY in urban area and have better than bortal 4, prob 3.5 or 3 so I was surprised to see the noise level in your frames. Obviously Toyko does that. You should get a place in the country dude!
Thanks again for all your work. I truly value your videos as having access to a treasure trove of information that's helped me get going in this often convoluted and sometimes confusing hobby.
Here's to 'the rabbit hole'!!
Hey Cuiv! My friend, did you check the ambient temperature the night you took the cooled and uncooled images? Maybe it wasn't very warm outside and so that helped the uncooled images in terms of thermal noise etc? Fascinating test, and most helpful! Thanks Cuiv, I love your intelligent and practical approach to our wonderful hobby! You are most definitely a Geek! ( and I say that as a HUGE compliment my friend!☺👍 )
Wes, Liverpool UK ( Bortle 7 )
It was unseasonably warm, around 20C as I recall!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Oh wow, that camera must be very good! 👌👍
Interesting. I thought the cooled photos would be more dramatically darker, less noise.
Great comparison! Thanks a lot for your videos.
Hi ! sorry for the thread necromancy. please would you like to reproduce the comparison with a narrowband filter, and with more titghly controlled conditions, or during a freshier night ? i leave in Britany, France, nights are quite fresh here and i'm wondering if it's worth spending +300€ in a peltier for variable star observation. thanks !
I personally would opt for cooled camera. The newer generation of low noise sensors (eg IMX571) do not need excessive cooling, but having a TEC cooled camera allows you to set the same temperature everytime. I use -5°C with my QHY268M (just to ensure it's colder than ambient in winter) which allows me to use my pre-prepared dark library each time. Whilst it's debated whether dark frames are required with this sensor, I think it's good practice to use all calibration frames where practical. In your experience, how does the noise compare between cooled and uncooled during a warm imaging session?
In the video it's mentioned an example cooling og minus 10 degrees as being a constant for the purposes of taking dark frames but isn't the camera cooling relative to the ambient temp? So -10 deg during a 10 deg night would be zero degrees and -10 on a zero degree night would be minus 20 degrees... In other words, you still need to take dark frames to match each night's variation in temp... correct? Or am I misunderstanding?
got some super black paint to test with (kinda like black 3.0)
it will be brittle and not something to touch so it will require being covored when not in use
Cuiv you are awesome !! Cooled all the way unless I'm using a dslr. Love the set up.
Thanks Steven!
Would be interesting to compare a hypthetical ASI585MC Pro with cooling on to it with cooling off. A version without cooling is the existing ASI585MC, which seems to work quite well for deep-sky objects.
Yeah it would be nice to have a cooler version of that sensor!
Slightly off topic, but a good place to mention this. I have two cooled cameras (ASImc-pro 2400 and 2600). When I use these on my shorter focal length scopes (
Ooooh very interesting, I'll have to look into it. I wonder if modding to use high quality fans like Noctua fans could help!
I had a look at the thread, it's indeed pretty damning! So I immediately checked my RisingCam/Touptek camera - the fan there doesn't contact the housing of the camera, is on silicon feet, and suspended by springs. The camera body does not vibrate at all!
And now I'm second guessing my results back when I had the EdgeHD800 scope at F7. Was it truly my seeing that limited me? Or camera vibrations?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I had my Edge 11 for a year, and also blamed bad seeing for limited performance (in Bortle 3!), before I noticed a very bright satellite that showed an unmissable wiggle. That sent me down this rabbit hole. I talked to ASI and they sent me additional rubber washers for the bolts, but that hasn't helped. I just ordered those Noctua silicone studs and will replace the metal bolts with them this week -- fingers crossed.
A weird thing which I still don't completely understand, is why I don't see the issue on my shorter focal length scopes -- one might think vibration of the camera is independent of the optics in front of it.
I'm going to make a video on this topic, this is yet another thing for us to be mindful of!
Having the issue on longer focal lengths implies that it is somehow linked to resolution/pixel scale, and thus that the camera vibrations are resonating through the scope... and maybe through the OAG as well?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek If you want some examples of the problem, I'm happy to provide. I have some powerpoint slides i presented to our local AstroPhotography group on this topic.
I was at NEAF and spoke with a pretty smart guy at the Celestron booth about this. He suggested one possible reason for the focal length issue has to do with the different inertias of each of my scopes. Since the 11" is heavier, and more solid, maybe the vibration shows up more in the sensor than in a lighter, looser, refractor. The ZWO booth was not very helpful, but they were mostly sales folks.
Would be nice if you would follow up with processing this image in a video. Most of my images look like this, but a talented guy like you can surely make it look great in a couple of steps in pixinsight.
Yeah there are limits to the efficiency - especially when compared to other sources of noise!
I just ordered a Player One Uranus-c with fan. I will see what I can do with it. The price of a cooled camera makes no sense. TEC coolers are not expensive. Buying one feels like rewarding gouging
I ditched taking dark frames altogether. IMO it doesn't result in much of a difference in the final stacked result.
Again, another great video. Very useful and informative ❤🎉
Thanks Geoffrey!
Hi Cuiv,
Many thanks for this! For me that is a huge difference between these two pictures.
What was the temperature of the camera while not cooled?
I understand that there is a real advantage in TEC cooled vs fan because of the ability to reproduce the exact same temperature.
But I think that a simple fan can do a great job dropping the sensor's temperature... I think I will try that this summer ...
The night itself was warm, around 20C!
What was the temperature difference between the 2, you would see a even bigger difference during the summer.
I accidentally just ran this experiment last night when I forgot to turn my cooler back on after a glitch… We’ll see. Do you actually take bias? I usually just do dark flats.
thankfully for those without cooled cameras there's a thing called Topaz
So far I haven't bothered with a cooled camera because, living in the Canadian north woods, most nights I am shooting are 5C or less, and often well below 0C. I'd only need cooled camera for maybe mid June to end of August. But perhaps it's time to think about one. What is that blue one behind you? I don't recognize the make. (Addendum: Wait, I just searched "Cuiv blue camera" and found it in another of your videos lol.)
1:07 funny thing is the cooler and required electronics wouldn't be more than 50$ at the very most if you were to buy them yourself so there shouldn't be a high premium for the feature unless they found a way to overcomplicate a TEC.
100% Agree. Adding a peltier module and a small fan isn't that expensive. ZWO is just printing money.
Nice video Cuiv. I always use a cooled camera for DSOs (the ASI2600). But can I ask why you calibrated your uncooled and cooled subs differently? You used darks for the uncooled ones and biases for the cooled ones. So it’s not really a fair comparison is it? I always calibrate my subs with darks.
Good question! I've long ago stopped calibrating IMX571 images (cooled to -10C) with darks - I could not see any difference with just bias calibration, in both individual frames and stacks!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek cool! I've heard a few people say that. Thanks
How warm was the night? (if you mentioned i must have missed it). At around +16c sensor temperature the 533/571 line of cameras produces 1e- per about a minute of exposure, which should be negligible for most skies and easy to deal with under darker skies too. Thermal noise doubles every 6 degrees so if your sensor ran at lets say ambient +10 (seems to be the case usually) and it was a warm night of more than +10c you might have had a significant amount of thermal noise in the image totaling several electrons per sub. I will say that for people in colder climates such as myself in Finland it is absolutely possible to get almost the same result with an uncooled camera because the average temperature of the imaging year is well below 0. I sometimes run without cooling just because it is colder than -10c outside and i cant be bothered to take another set of calibration frames. At those temperatures it really does not matter at all, but i agree with your conclusion of still going for the cooled camera. Not that much more expensive and it just calibrates better, so not the right place to save money IMO.
I should have mentioned it! It was around 20C outside temp, unseasonably warm night
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Oh yeah makes sense now how the difference was so noticeable. Prob looking at 10e- extra per sub which would be bad even for bortle 8.
How do you do 120s images in a city? I'm in London, and my camera blows out the light at around 20 seconds. Is it the filter? I only have a basic CLS filter. :)X Thank you.
I'm at F7.5 in this example (only L filter) - and of course it depends on gain/offset settings and the camera itself!
I am sure that if you did this in the Tokyo summertime, you would see a huge difference. My old Nikon DSLR would give such high backgrounds on 30-degree nights, the images were almost unusable!
Yeah I remember summertime as being a huge challenge!
Did you mange to use SV705c? In one of your vlog, you had SV705c.
Cooled is the way to go. I have the 533 and it makes everything so much easier.
Fully agree!
This is amazing! I actually just finished making an insulated housing for my Uranus-C camera with a temperature controller and a peltier cooler and I can get it below -10C! What a wild coincidence lol
Could you provide more information on the cooler and housing
Is it cooling the sensor, or the camera body?
@PowerScissor I guess it's cooling the sensor because the temperature it shows in NINA got down below -10C. I stopped my test at -10.8 but I think it could get a bit lower. The temperature probe that is supposed to be touching the camera body (I don't believe it is) reads as only like 13 degrees C though. I'm counting it as a win because of the camera temperature readout in any case
@@skyhookbix the cooler is a peltier cooler connected to a temperature control unit that you can set a specific temperature for. I designed an insulated housing to fit some pipe insulation in between the walls of the housing and the camera body, and I designed it so it could fit a PC heatsink to the peltier device.
@@trollshark6260 I've thought about trying to add cooling to my existing uncooled astro cams...but I just haven't run into a target where I wasn't happy with the resulting image and cooling the camera would make it "better".
I have to admit the 2 images in this video both looked fine to me, and the cooled version wouldn't be worth any extra effort.
Maybe one day, I will feel like I've maxed out what I can see and image uncooled, and move to a cooled setup.
I also feel like in a few more years an AI will be adequately trained on enough images where there will be a one click button that will be close to the equivalent of removing the noise from Astrophotos. I mean AI noise removal is good now, and with time it will be great.
So, Cuiv, there will be no difference between cooled and uncooled camera when doing EAA ?
Being a Chemical Engineer I have always thought that when I have proper imaging setup, I am going to use the "exhaust" heat of the Peltier cooled camera to the front of the image train to control the dew formation by recycling the hot air from the camera fan. Do you see any likely issues here?
This is done naturally with Hyperstar or RASA setups! Air turbulence will likely degrade seeing though
@@CuivTheLazyGeek What I was thinking to do is to have a functionally similar design as the existing electrically driven dew controllers, except it would derive heat from the warm air instead of electric heater. Well, it’s a thought!
question Cuiv - when you set your camera to -10C is that -10 degrees below ambient or absolute -10? I've heard claims both ways and that confuses the whole purpose...if it's -10 below ambient, that doesn't really help with flats/darks/bias as that will have to mimic your light's temperature at a later point in time (indoors or during the day). Can you set me straight on the temp setting? Thx
Absolute -10 :)
Do you live in Tokyo for work or family reasons? Do you ever go to any other areas of Japan to camp overnight with your equipment away from the big cities?
Good comparison although at worse ease scenario f7.5 I'd love to see a revisit on your f2 C6. Adjust exposure just before star blowout. 30 seconds?
Thermal noise is built up over time. With fast optics like f4 newt or f2 hyperstar exposures can be quite short if trying to preserve star color.
Thermal noise is built up over time, but it also builds up in the stack, regardless of the subframe lengths (assuming the total stack integration is the same)!
vielen dank für dieses unterhaltsame video
My pleasure!
Very illuminating - thank you,
My pleasure :)
Hello Cuiv..
Do you have any specific reason for choosing -10 degrees as your sensor temperature? I see many astrophotographers using that value of -10. If I am not incorrect, even using other temperatures may be would suit you with the light pollution, right?
Secondly, what is the lowest temperature that can the cooled camera reach? What if my ambient temperature is -15deg? Would it cool to more than 30 degrees below -15 ?
Thank you
Ashvn
14:14 totally agree
What is causing the vertical banding in both images?
Cool result -- Pardon the pun. Thanks Cuiv as ever.
Haha! Thank you :) I love puns!
Hi. Any review on Zwo ASI 585 MC.
SPECS - 1/1.2” sensor. ~8.5 Megapixel
Shutter - 30us- 2000s
Hello! Yes: ruclips.net/video/zibS7JyKdw8/видео.html
@@CuivTheLazyGeek not the pro version. The one without a fan. 585MC
The uncooled is powered via usb, the cooled nneeds a power supply. The benefit of cooled isnt strong enough for me, but im a noob and poor :(
I'm assuming you did the screen stretch separately for each of the 2 pictures. You probably autostretched it so that the noise looked the same in both images, although in fact the cooled image got more contrast amplification in order to make that happen. Is that the case? What happens if you apply the same screen stretch to both?
Yes I did autostretch! The results were similar with a manual stretch...
Nice! Great comparison.
Thank you!
That was a great video.
Thank you;
hey Cuiv! what do you think ... 294 colour cooled for my C11 or save up for mono future models ? 😅
I personally like OSC these days! Just know that the 294 should NOT be used with bias frames, and flats should be AT LEAST 3 seconds long!
Wow! That's very nice!
Thank you!
Should I get a guide scope or a off axis guider for a mini tracking camera?
Depends on your telescope!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek How would I decide than?
👍👍
That mount looks big enough to sit on the scope while it's tracking.
Wont the camera sensor frost ovrr at -10 C?
Large sensor cameras come with a few heater!
فديوهات مفيدة شكرا لك .هل c11 تلسكوب جيد للتصوير الفلكي؟
It depends - for planetary it should be a great scope! For deep sky, you need a great mount, little wind, and great seeing - so only if your conditions support it.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek شكرا جزيلا
Thank you for this very interesting video!
Great
Wrong test! The exposure only 120 seconds. Its very small time! Compare 20-30min exposure photo. Cooling camera are victory for long time exposure!
It's 30 * 120s so one hour of integration time for each cooled scenario and uncooled scenario. Obviously a continuous 20-30 minute single exposure in broadband is impossible in Tokyo.