Critical Comparison - R88 vs. SF-12 - Stereo Passive Ribbons - Drum Overheads, Vocal, Acoustic
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2019
- I've always wanted to compare the two big names in stereo passive ribbon mics, the R88 and SF-12.
Free Download for All 8 Years of CSL Downloads and PDF guides: www.creativesoundlab.tv/alldo...
Ribbon Mics:
AEA R88 - My standard (Stereo) drum overhead - It’s almost like cheating for drum recording amzn.to/2ERcrcT
AEA N8 - Easy to use, and works on just about anything - amzn.to/2HSEH0o
AEA N22 - Fantastic close mic that doesn’t get muddy - amzn.to/2WmHKqv
Tom mics:
CAD m179 amzn.to/2IhUUvj
Audix D4 amzn.to/2JV3N0V
Kick and Bass Cab Mic:
RE20 amzn.to/312S3ip
M88 amzn.to/2JXN7WL
Snare drum mic:
Audix i5 amzn.to/2IgAdzQ
Shure SM57 amzn.to/2WKvtvw
Preamps:
Warm Audio WA-412 amzn.to/2IiBN4b
Warm Audio TB-12 amzn.to/2JU1wTP
Warm Audio WA12 amzn.to/2JVbnbM
Warm Audio WA2A amzn.to/2JYh2Oj
Studio Monitors:
Focal Solo 6Be amzn.to/2WkJArW
Adam T7V amzn.to/2HW45CJ
Recommended “First Mic for Any Studio”:
Shure SM7B amzn.to/2JYfAeP
Use with the SM7B for a higher-end sound amzn.to/2KrFKpU
Vocal Mic - Soyuz 017 amzn.to/2ER9Gbs
Large Diaphragm Condenser - Soyuz 023 amzn.to/2ERo5Ex
Small Diaphragm Condensers - Soyuz 013 amzn.to/2JXjKDM
Nice and QUIET fan for the studio - amzn.to/2JVv1ok
Free Download for All 8 Years of CSL Downloads and PDF guides: www.creativesoundlab.tv/alldownloads
This was a great video comparison, thanks for taking a clear stance
The first time I heard an R88 on drum overheads was on your channel. I fell in love with it then and every time I hear one on drums my ears tickle. Love that beastly Mic! Keep up the great content!
Great job Ryan, love your videos.
Thanks for the well done shoot out. Both are great mics. I prefer the sound of the royer over all. I would end up high passing the aea and bumping the upper mids where as the royer already captures the sounds I am looking for. I disagree a bit with the idea that a ribbon mic is only for warmth and a rolled off top end. I like them for there accurate sense of place. They put you in the room in a different way than condensers even when the recorded frequency ranges are about the same. They both sound fantastic with the aea leaning toward massive and the royer leaning toward intimate.
Great to see those D4's on the toms! Love 'em!
Yeah I must have been borrowing those when I filmed this.
For my personal taste: R88 wins handsdown
Pascal Altena without any doubt!
Great comparison, just wish you had tried M/S on the acoustic guitar on top of the Blumlein setup. The R88 should benefit from a touch more focus. Really loved the vocals with the R88. Thanks!
Great shoot out. I gather you've used warm audio preamps for R88. Have you by any chance tried it with AEA preamp? if so, would you say it's worth getting the AEA oreamp with the R88 mainly for drums duties? Many thanks Juraj
they are different types of mic, for different uses, different distances
this video makes me want to try my R88mkII on vocals 😀
That AEA sounds great on drums! I'll have to look into trying blumlein with my pair of Cascade Vin Jets. On the vocal, I'm hearing some scratchiness/distortion with the SF-12 isolated. Any idea what's going on there?
Your channel is seriously a gem. Best one for recording I've seen. Thanks for all you do Ryan!
I heard the distortion as well, very peculiar! Its the sort of low freq distortion I hear on mics like the super cheap BM-800..
Yeah.....I have no idea. Weird stuff at like 90 hz or lower. I looked into it, and still couldn't figure it out. I don't know what would cause it, or how it would happen. Figured it was still worth including though.
I need to know everything about that drum kit though
R88!! What a beast! The Royer does have more top end, and since most of the time i'll boost a fair amount of top end on a ribbon, maybe it's nice that this royer does have that already built in. But it doesn't have that meaty low end and mid range that ribbons usually have.
What are your thoughts on the RB500 from thomann? They are dirt cheap ribbons and sound amazing!
What preamp was used here? Great demo and channel!
Thanks!
Thanks for posting this comparison. Apart from the tonal difference I notice that the stereo imaging with the R88 seems wider and more encompassing, and though the voicing of the SF12 seems to suit the acoustic guitar better for that particular part, once the high pass was applied to the R88 you were left with a wider image and great tonality. The SF 12 sounds more focused perhaps better for a lead instrument. On vocal the SF 12 clearly sat better in the mix. On drums I've also listened to another shoot out with these two mics and to my ear the OH's sound much better with R88 both times but when placed further back as a room mic the SF 12 gave a nice overview.
Wow, that R88!!
At our studio we use a lot of AEA mics (R84s, N8s, R92, R44) and R122s (we have 4). In general I prefer the AEA sound, but each have their place. the royers don't have nearly as much proximity effect, which makes them suitable for close miking (guitars, sax, etc). They are bright and agressive, good for making things pop out, but they quickly drop off and have very little of that high frequency air. The R84s and N8s, while having LOTS of proximity effect up close, are superb as room mics and drum overheads - more beefy. I also think they tend to have a more natural sound, especially in the top end. I'd take an R88 for a single overhead for an orchestra hands down any day. Each have their strengths....
How do the R8's sound on overheads when you boost the highs with a shelve? Would you say, smoother than using uneq'd SDC or LDC's?
Yes I’d say so. I do it all the time and sounds good to me.
This is really interesting! Definitely preferred the R88 on drums, to me the treble was a little more detailed and that warm low-mid thing it has going on really made the drums sound "smooth", if you will. Vocals, could go either way, I think it might come down to what you are going for with the track. I feel like the AEA was more laid back, not having as much upper mid response, giving the vocal a relaxed feel.. But at the same time the Royer felt like it cut just a little more in context because of its higher response in the upper (relative) midrange... On guitar here, I definitely preferred the Royer. To me, it felt like there was just too much low midrange happening in the AEA, and if I were to put that guitar in a mix I feel as if the Royer would allow it to sit a little better. On its own or in a much more bare track, I'm honestly not sure. I like the fuller sound however it does get a bit much and a little distracting depending on what I am listening to it on.
Yeah I agree with that. The royer is great on guitar and at a distance, the 121 is killer at 8 inches out from the cab. I could hear some extra top end from the SF12 that the R88 didn't have. Good ears.
This type of comparison so depends of amplifier pairing... I would have to try two or three of the best amp for each of them, keep my favorite amp for each one then compare. In this video for example, there is more bass on the AEA than the Royer. In another video comparison on RUclips, the Royer SF-12 had the more bass presence. So everytime there may be an amp that is more adapted to one of the mics.
Couple questions, why does the audio sound blown out/distorted on the solo vocal around 4:38 on the SF-12? And why is there so much high frequency noise added to the audio on the R88 when you initiate the high pass filter at 7:42? Thanks in advance! I like the R88 better between the two mics. Last question, do you think I can create a blumlein drum overhead with my Coles 4038's?
I see you addressed the noise on the isolated vocal in the comments below. Please ignore my question on that topic.
Yeah you could do it with the 4038 but it would be a pain to set up. Usually people use those as a spaced pair.
Very surprised by the low end roll off on the Royer. Loving the sound of your AEA Ryan. Sounds much more like the ribbon sound I'm used to as opposed to the Royer.
Yeah I was too. The 121 actually is much warmer.
@@creativesoundlab yeah thats interesting. What do you think theyve done different in the sf-12 to the 121? Shorter ribbons? Different trafos?
@@diyrecordingstudio they are completely different microphones they are just in a similar housing.
Not sure what happened on VOX sample... the SF-12 was quite distorted. I doubt the mic is actually distorting.
Love the R88 but the brightness of the Royer is very appealing to me also
Do like I do. I added the ubk clariphonic EQ to my R88 and then you can get the best of all worlds.
The royer seems clearer and more realistic. Why does the AEA have so much more noise with EQ?
They both sound great. I really liked they royer on drums and guitars, but the R88 killed it on vocals imo. The top end was way smoother and it felt fuller to me. Not by a huge margine, but noticable.
Did you use a cloud lifter for these? The R88 had a ton for hiss 🐍 n the acoustic than the Roger did.
The R88 is a bit boomy or heavier low end overall but with great detail. It would be my choice on the kit if that were the only overhead stereo mic. On a fully mic’d up kit, the R88 would need to be high passed for my needs. Now the Royer would be close to where I’d need an overhead to be in the big picture. I do like the midrange it reflected on the snare too.
On the classical gtr the Royer wins with its flat response and midrange.
I’d like to hear the SF24.
Thanks for your video ! ⚡️
Great insight! Thanks for the cool comment!
I've watched several comparisons now and I'd go for the R88, hands down. Listening on Focal CMS 65.
On overheads and acoustic guitar the royer sounds like how I would eq the AEA R88 track which sounds woofy by comparison. Are you really going to use all that low and low mids on the overheads and acoustic guitar in a mix? Unless perhaps you are just recording a soloist with just 1 mic I would choose the royer and perhaps even for a soloist with 1 mic I would still choose the royer. Great demo btw. I usually prefer tube condensors on overheads and acoustic guitar but between these 2 I prefer the royer as I would need to use less eq. I wouldnt use either on vocals.
R88 is definitely the richer of the two. The Royer seemed to lack a lot of low end. However I did notice more noise and hiss with the r88. Not sure if that's normal but especially on acoustic that hiss was really audible.
Nice comparison! Now you’ve got me curious as to how the R88 would compare with 2 of their N8’s in their Nuvo Stereo Kit... That R88 sure is easy and fast to set up though...
I can try it out. But I’ll tell you that the n8 has a flat frequency to 5k and THEN it starts to slope. Because if this, your ear interprets this as a bump up at 5k. It’s subtle. Also, the r88 has more dynamics. Again it’s very subtle.
Creative Sound Lab now you are telling me to just go ahead and buy BOTH! ;)
I like the sound of the Royer, however; I appreciate the SF-12 is all clarity and no girth. Better to have the girth and EQ it back in a mix than being clear and then trying to add girth.
Yeah true. I agree. That way you are making a reduction instead of a boost.
@@creativesoundlab Indeed, I suppose I depends how much you want to commit to ideas. Do you like to commit or have options?
True, but you end up accentuating WAY more noise when heavily cutting that girth. That’s been my experience working with my R 88 - and you can hear it pretty clearly in this example when he cuts the R 88 to match the Royer. For more up close and intimate stereo recordings where you want more clarity and top end, I think the Royer might be the better option. Although I agree that nothing touches that are 88 when it comes to gorgeously expansive room recording.
R88 hands down.. listening on my Prism and focal twins I can hear just how much warmth and body without the pro. effect compared to the royer.. I feel like your not going to get a bad sound with the R88. it seems like it will allow you to adjust eq to taste to taste; rather than fix it in the mix. And that's how I would describe what I would have to do with the SF-12.. even for orchestral recordings I would feel very happy with the AEA even if I felt like pulling down some low end later it will still sound "better" than the Royer.
Thanks for the shootout, very informative. I think they do like the royer better on the drums, i like the detail. AEA is better on vox and acoustic. Overall the AEA wins considering price and application.
Ryan, r88 or a pair of Coles?
My guess going into this blind without even hearing the vid first is that the R88 destroys. Ok, now I'm gonna watch it. lol ...(after).....R88 pwns the Royer except for the up-close-proximity-thing you were talkin' about for vocals. Great video and demonstration. Love the R88. Big, open, and natural sound. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks Paul! Your studio tour should be coming out next month. Sorry for the delay!
the difference in low end can be explained by the fact that the AEA is meant as a far field ribbon mic, it's not meant to be placed close to a source (i felt that you really could hear that on the acoustic guitar), whereas i suspect the royer is meant to be used in the nearfeld (royer is not actually saying anything about this on their site) , and thus has some low end correction to fix the proximity effect, so that it sounds natural close to the source, but when you go further from it it sounds thinner. there's also a big difference in high end, and i agree with you that the aea just hast a nice smooth top end, and i would love one on drums. for vocals i liked both but for acoustic guitar i didn't like the aea, it sounded way too boomy to my ears.
Yeah, I agree with your feedback. But it doesn't make sense to make a mic that is made for close up recording that is stereo. I honestly think the tone is just THAT different. It's prime application is orchestra recording...most likely in a hall with lots of low mids and I'm sure it does an amazing job.
@@creativesoundlab yeah I agree with you, I would go for the aea in a heartbeat if I had the choice!
strangely i did not like the r88 at all on drums, the royer seemed nice and clean... if i wanted dirt i´d probaly go for a coles 4038, the r88 is sort of pillowy to me
Hi Ryan a very usefull video as usual! I personnaly own a matched pair of Royer r121, I bought them without giving them a try because the guy from the store told me they would be perfect for saxophone jazz recording... And I regret it as they sound thin and mid-ranged on that kind of instruments I think the r88 would have been the perfect choice for me... Anyway I love the r88, maybe the royer sounds more realistic on acoustic guitar...
Hmmm I find the 121 to be a really versatile mic. It can do close up and far away too. It’s much warmer than the sf12. How far are you from the instrument?
@@creativesoundlabWell I think they were about 2 feet max , one pointing between the bell and the left hand, the other one towards the side keys, ( on a tenor sax), slight panning the two microphones seemed to reduce the overhaul harshness, believing that they are phase coherence forgiving... Do you ses another approach for this application ? Any advices would be welcome!!!! And thanks again!
@@alainchanyuhon6004 There's a chance because the microphones are slightly different distances from your instrument that you are getting suck out because of the phase relationship between the two. You should try with one microphone and move it around as a starting point.
I liked the warmth/body of the R88....and the highs/accuracy of the SF12. I would buy the R88 and EQ up the highs ti=o give me the BEST OF BOTH!
I just filmed a video with the new R88A. Pretty amazing sound. Bigger and more top too.
So...let's see it !! ( and hear it). How 'bout a solo piano shootout between the R88 and SF12. Dang, you have me looking at my savings account to see if it can take a $2K hit for an R88.. @@creativesoundlab
sf12 gives a higher resolution and so a more real representation. r88 mushiness is not curable even with the eq if you listen carefully...:)
I prefer the SF-12.
on guitar, the R88 is super noisy to get the level there. And the SF-12 feels way more focused, but for drums I wouldn't ever go for the SF-12, it's thinner, boring.
that r88 all day long.
R88 sounds muddy and boomy in this case. Royer voiced better for the guitar here..
The Royer sounds out of phase to me.
Yeah, it's just the tone of the mic.
Royer is flatter. I vote royer
I know it’s all subjective, but I can’t believe some people prefer the royer. Y’all must be listening through a cell phone or something 😂😂
Kinda hated the sound of that royer, sounds really meh for such an expensive piece of gear
The sound of the R88 is colorful and exciting, the SF-12 is just boring
Too bad the R88 is so noisy.
Couldn't have been from the preamp.
This was a great video comparison, thanks for taking a clear stance
Also would love to see a comparison of the r88 and the stager blumlein mic
I liked the R88 better on drums and vox - and the SF-12 hands down better on acoustic guitar...even after the HPF there was some detail captured from the SF-12 that just seemed to be missing from the R88. Ugg - I can't justify the purchase of BOTH. The struggle is real :D