The bans made me want to keep playing EDH. I was considering dismantling my EDH decks to make a cube for a while but the bans gave me hope for the format. Now, with these recent updates, I have followed through. On a happy note, my cube is coming along well. I am sad that it has come to this though. I hope we as a people become better one day in the future.
@@lancelotto475 it’s not your fault that some people decided to be investors in a card game…and it’s certainly not your fault that people decided to be awful on the internet when given an opportunity.
Sorry to say. This is the true face of the audience Wizards has been courting as of late. Legit ever since they've been openly political with secret lairs and "rascist card" bans. This toxicity has been pushing out the oldheads who just wanted to play a fantasy game for a long while. Add onto that expensive cards value being wiped out and you get angry people with a history of threats to get their way (there's a reason why Wizards did the bans i mentioned and it was so their HQ in Seattle didn't burn down for not toeing the line) suddenly losing a lot of money all at once. You can get the picture from there
@@UmbraBree my guy out here defending “invoke prejudice” or “jihad” Cards that were never good and openly depicting racist imagery, but “I wanna play my fantasy game where my white creatures kill the bad black ones”
I'm honestly just stunned by all this still. I quit Magic back when the War of the Spark novel thing happened, I left again when Arena's economy got too hard to keep up with. But I kept coming back, and now I play almost exclusively commander. I have a regular playgroup now, hell it built my entire social circle after years of knowing no one but my husband in our entire state... I can't just leave the game now, but sweet jesus guys... Death threats?!!! One of my friends that works at my LGS asked me what I thought of the bans and if we weren't in a quiet part of the store, I wouldn't have answered him... I've never had a better reason to leave this community... But I just can't now, so I don't know what to do other than brace myself and hope this community never fails itself this hard again. I know you lost a lot of value on those cards, but seriously? Don't we have enough violence in the world already? And over cardboard...
The good news is that we're probably safe in the short term. If Wizards/Hasbro do something to abuse their new power, the community will likely just ignore them and we'll see the rise of another fan-run RC equivalent. We're used to policing our own game, so (at least in the short term), the threat of "if we print something bonkers, the RC will just ban it and we won't make any money" is still there. The problem comes only after they've done a good job with the format for a while and Hasbro decides to force the squeeze. Hopefully by then, we'll still remember that Wizards doesn't TRULY own the EDH format, and never will.
This is what I've been trying to preach, 95% of commander play is completely outside sanctioned events so unless LGSs start to enforce rules, wotc really doesn't have the last say in any decision. I have no doubt that should they start to make scummy decisions people will just reform an independent RC and things will go on as normal.
I used to encourage having a rule zero conversation with my old play group, but half the group chose to not engage with it, and or one player in particular would go out of her way to try and screw someone out. She rarely succeeded, but knowing she would use these conversations to try to “counter pick” (for a lack of better word) created a hostile environment. Im optimistic about this new system, having a streamlined system to rank our decks can only be positive. (Assuming the ranks are accurate)
That last part is kind or the crux though and considering what they've proposed so far I am not hopeful that it won't just require a lot more "well my deck is a _ besides 1-2 cards". They've tried to rank individual cards on arena which doesn't really work, here it's even more severe. It is early though so I hope they take some feedback and make some changes, would love to see them try and tier synergies/combos/wincons because i feel like that's so much more accurate and less prone to manipulation than "high card"
Don't think that's true. Anecdotes are fundamentally limited, but it seems harder to get buy-in for some stuff like (reasonable) silver-border cards than enforcing the social pressure on nastier non-banned cards.
Yugioh and Pokemon had anime to bring in new players magic doesn't have that they need secondary market to help drive sales that's the difference konami can give them the finger but wizards can't
From what i have seen around me in our edh groups... it is not the commander playser not even the cedh players that was mad it is like 3 guys thats gets cards for investments... 😢
It's interesting you bring up Cedh, and a lack of brewing. There is an impression that players in Cedh enjoy that format because of It's relative stability. It only changes slightly, and rarely suffers massive shake ups. It's the same way Modern was viewed before the Horizons sets were introduced (much to Prof's chagrin). It's a fascinating psychological study on some people's need for stability.
cedh is ironically the most pure form of edh, just shuffle up and play. none of this "what kind of game do you want" nonsense. which how it should be. rule 0 is the absolute worst thing about edh.
I hope a better way to phrase it would be "The total of my deck is a 108" Where everything above a 1 would fit in that extra 8 points or "I am 8 points above tier 1" Much like your Yu-Gi-Oh video game example😊
There are 11 different decks that fit that description though, and they play pretty differently. A deck with 8 Bracket 2 cards is not a deck with 4 Bracket 3 cards is not a deck with a Bracket 2, 2 Bracket 3s and a Bracket 4.
@@nickalasmontano1496And on top of that tying strength to single cards is just prone to exploitation. A deck that's all 2s can still have pre-turn 5 wins, infinite combos, and other things that will stomp even a high power deck unless they literally tier every combo piece in magic. But at that point using those cards outside that tier will make an otherwise precon-equal deck look like high power.
Genuinely u are right, it is sad as a casual player to see people get so viscerally upset about this. No matter how much you may disagree with a decision, it is no reason to threaten someone over it. Its a card game, we are adults, we can act like adults, or at least i’d hope we can
The vast majority of us can. Unfortunately because of the nature of thee internet it only takes a small handful of sub human degenerates to ruin everything for everyone else.
I have a strong feeling the people who were the most angry weren't actually players mad their decks got nerfed, it was people who were invested in cardboard. I guarantee if these cards were sol-ring cheap this controversy wouldn't be more than a mild grumble
Tiny tiny nitpick: "meta" does not stand for "most efficient tactic available", that's a backronym. It comes from "metagame", literally the external factors that affect the game (what decks are most popular, for example).
I go as far as building "meta decks" that usually target the metagame instead of having a specific plan themselves. I use things like Stifle and Gaea's Blessing that can interact with a lot of opposing win conditions and screw them up. (Countering a Storm trigger with Stifle is one of the sauciest things in Magic.)
@@konata8657Bro, no. It’s about compromise. If every one else is running upgraded precons don’t run cards like Rhystic Study or Mana Tithe and the like.
There's nothing dead about it, if you have a group you like to play with then you'll be playing regardless of what rules are enacted or who imposed them.
Whenever I sit down with a new deck I generally explain what I’m trying to do with the deck. I run bumbleflower and explain how I want to win by pulling out the omniscience and shrieking drake to give them an idea how I play. If I play satya I explain that it’s etb focus with energy payoff for lighting runners and such. I find this gives me better games that have better interaction and politics because when people have an idea of what you are doing they aren’t worried about super random things.
"when people have an idea of what you are doing they aren’t worried about super random things" Super random things make games interesting though. Like throwing down a Wheel of Fortune just to give everyone a new hand, or slamming a Reins of Power to end the game.
@@Sauvenil im more talking about people over analyzing a board state. i had a friend meteor golem a cultivator caravan when we started playing which we always reference. this was before neon dynasty so nothing like Kona to worry about. i will admit pre ban i did enjoy turn 1 mountain, mana crypt into a wheel of fortune was a very enjoyable time.
One of the best perspectives out there. Thank you for not sugar coating that it was the communities fault, and now we are going to get what we deserve. Get ready for your toxic "victory?" You have no idea what's coming. I feel bad for everyone who had a reasonable response to all the bans. Things will never be the same. Everyone share this video.
When I heard about the points system my reaction was basically, "Oh! I love that idea! Setting actual power scales and creating an easy to understand chat for deck power that you don't have to have a PHD in Magic interactions and combos to understand when and where a card is busted is fantastic! Oh wait, its Wizard's handling it? Damn, RIP."
the death of mana crypt, jeweled lotus, dockside weakens my boros Osgir deck. Just pushes edh into green because mana dorks and acceleration just more boros hate
Hoping that this will bring more attention to the multiplayer "Conquest" format now (80+ cards, singleton, 30 life, 12 max cmdr dmg, with its own banned list that includes the reserved list).
@@Cybertech134in all fairness voltron isn’t good. It’s good at turning one player into paste and then getting put down by the other two players who had time to set up while you one shot the third
Sorry for the long comment, but a similar idea has been on my mind for months (even made a reddit post a long time ago too). Now that the bracket system seems to be the way going forward here are my thoughts. I think a 5 bracket system would work better than 4. That way, we have 3 being average rather than people trying to do a weird 2.5 style deck to try and sneak their way to a lower bracket. I don't know if we need to have every card labeled for a bracket (like do we need to dedicate space for cards that have only flavor text on them that never see play). I think the only cards that need to be in a bracket are cards that need to be slotted into those levels because any lower would be too strong. There are so many cards in the game that trying to police every single one is going to be too much for people to agree on. Just focus on the ones that people want addressed and that way we can get updated lists where cards are moved around the brackets or put on it. This would also create new metas to help keep the game fresh at all levels of play, because let's be honest there will be people trying to make the strongest meta defining bracket 1 and 2 decks just as much as they would with a 3 and 4 decks.
Your last point is kind of my hesitation around this whole system depending on how strict people end up being with tiers. There will be tier 1 decks that can stomp tables of "casual tier 3 decks" that only have a few listed tier 3 cards. Tying strength to single cards will just make the people hellbent on pubstomping find a way around it, I doubt that it'll actually fix anything more than it is now and in the worst case I can see this just inadvertently creating tiered competitive formats
People most likely wouldn't run Labman instead of Thassa's Oracle, no. It's altogether too vulnerable to too many vectors of interaction to risk. Tainted Pact and Demonic Consultation would most likely become niche again, like they were before Oracle entered the scene. This is not to say that cEDH would be fucked without Thoracle, just that it would be a bigger shake-up than you give it credit for. And as for people who couldn't run their decks anymore post-ban, those are mainly fringe cEDH decks that relied on the explosiveness of the banned cards to field less mana-efficient wincons. Slicer and Godo are examples of this, but I'm sure there are a bunch of others that I'm just not privy too at this juncture. They can't compete with the control-laden decks at the top anymore, so they'll either have to scrap their decks and start over, or let them fall down to high power, where they're likely to still be too strong for most high power decks to fight, unless they further change them. I don't envy that situation, I'll be honest. Those are both asides to the main point of the video though. I share your misgivings about Wizards running the format, and I'm very worried that this system won't address the actual issue. Most non-games I've seen, and admittedly it hasn't been that many, wasn't the 'Turn 1 Land-Crypt-Signet-Demonic Tutor into Consult-Thoracle on turn 2' sorts of deals. They were highly synergistic and resilient value piles being brought into janky or budget'y pods. If a non-game is of the former kind, you can just ask them to swap decks or leave the pod, and at worst the better part of 10 minutes were wasted for you. The latter kind, however, drags on, while you're not allowed to play Magic but where it would be rude to just throw up your hands and give up, even if you can see that the outcome is all but guaranteed. I'm wondering how this bucket system will account for that. Can it do that at all? Because, as you pointed out, the synergy piles are edge cases. Almost any commander (But most offenders seem to be either containing Simic colors or Dimir colors) and most cards they use can range from alright, all the way to a huge piece of shit, to play against, depending on how they're built. And this is without playing tutors, fast mana, free spells and what have you.
I would prefer tiers care about game play loops and not cards. As a person who builds weird decks I'd prefer this. I ran mana crypt in my coin flip deck(only kinda salty it was bad for the format and I never tapped it for mana just used it to trigger win coin flip cards) I run cards like this all the time. I love using powerful cards in weird ways that somehow undermined thier power but also generate resources in weird way. This system is better but I'd prefer a system that cards about modes of play and closing turns.
I am really sorry to all you people who got mad about taking out dockside but I for one was considering it weeks ago and only hadn't done it because I didn't have a good replacement for it. This kicked me in the ass and I'm having a better time with other cards trying to find a good fit. My little janky six deck that I proxy the dockside for. Because I took out dioxide is now approaching a seven. Trying to find what makes it work now has made me a better player.
An Armaggeddon put in by someone who constructed their deck with a solid game plan usually makes the game go faster as opposed to a casual throwing in a Farewell just because.
WOTCs greed, whether its in D&D or Magic, means this will only be a bad thing. The sheer possible threat of an independent group acting as a check & balance for purely busted card design was a net good. That's completely gone, and theres not just a financial incentive but an actual legal requirement to maximize profits for shareholder benefit. There's gonna be 2-3 busted cards heavily promoted and advertised every set forever, and whether they get banned after a year or so is largely irrelevant. As far as the point or tier system, I don't hate it even if its kind of bad. Canadian Highlander might have been a more interesting format to me and my friends if their version had a command zone.
My main worry here on the new system is which cards go well to fit to WotC's bottom line. For example, back in MKL we had Jeska's Will in one of the precons. By Gavin's words, precons should stick to being Tier 1. This means that if WotC prints any chase card in a precon, as they tend to do with all of them, those chase cards either break their own system, making precons of the bracket they obviously are not in, or they would stop printing those chase cards outside packs, which would raise their secondary market value
Important to note that the "powelevel" thing was always in the hands of WotC, which is the thing that Olivia was defending on the no-ban of lotus and crypt. She wanted to wait for WotC to release it before action was taken against those two cards, and the fact that all went to shit is why this project, which is still under development, was revealed this soon, before more time was spent to hone it and tune it.
As long as people believe they can hide behind a username and VPN, this kind of stuff will happen. Look at the video gamer online community as an example. IRL interaction is more moderated because the consequence of acting stupid are immediate and tangible. The internet isn't the real world
So you think they should've risked the possibility of people actually killing them and their families over trying to protect themselves and their families?
people, don't get distracted yes harassment bad but, that's not the point, the point is WotC sold you premium product at top dollar price that you bought for the perceived price of certain cards, and then said company destroyed that perceived price focus, the harassment thing should only be a side note on the conversation
"...then you didn't have a deck in the first place, you had a pile!" 🗿..yes? "you just relied on powerful staples, that doesn't mean you have a well built deck!!" 🗿..and? "sry, thats an opinion i'm willing to sit on forever" 🗿..cool. imma go play some 60+ card kitchen table until the bans are reverted. I just brewed up something with the mlp cards and crusader templars i've been itching to test.
Drannith and armageddon in higher tiers worry me a fair bit, some people are going to want to play tier 1-2 and just get stomped by mr solitaire sultai that kind of just stomps everybody because noone brought control since their pieces are not that good in lower tiers because people think its not "fun" to slow the game down.
A Ratio select format would be interesting in a card game. they recently did this kind of tournament for Marvel vs Capcom after some top players organize and put together based off of Capcom Vs SNK
My main deck is literally juat "I make Big Monster, they step on you." You can blow me up with a sneeze. You can block me out, and if you have prot from green im basically rendered useless. But when i can pop off and actually go nuts? Squish. For the most part, i run precons. I generally dont have the funds for a massive collection to make decks from. Theyre nit rhe best, but if i had time i could strip thise decks apart and make a mega synergy set up, such as White-Green population bombing via token generation and boosting.
I appreciate the broader topic here, but I also just learned in this video they intend to make sol ring a 1, which I have no words to explain my rage at. At least, at least a 2, so I can say, “I’m running a power level 1 deck with nothing outside of it.” And get people to play decks without it, but the fact they can’t even admit it’s a problem is so infuriating. Saying it’s a 4 and just having people assume it’s in the deck would have been the easiest thing in the world. I’m so angry right now, I just need to calm down. This is such an infuriating decision. I want to play an edh format without that awful card taking up a slot in every deck for the love of god.
Well, new "rule 0" conversation in the years to come will be: Do we play EDH or New Commander? xD Commander is basically a incredible big homebrew of a game, don't forget that. Also, want to say that the RC made the wrong move to move far from the threats. Ask the CAG, ask the community, and as the last resort, go to the corporation.
Im so disappointed in the magic community as a whole over this. I dont want wizards to run commander into the ground like i think is absolutely inevitable.
The RC cut the community literally if half, told the fast mana players to pound sand. The casuals said "haha, you arent welcome here this is OUR game". Then a few bad actors threatened people and we lost the RC. Now, as a consequence, disagreeing with the bans may as well make you a terrorist sympathizer "because the baddies might win" and the pro ban folk are acting like martyrs and ignoring a full half of the player base who want the cards unbanned. The pro ban half of the community has been just as caustic and trash as anyone else since the bans were announced. And the RC quite frankly deserved to be dissolved. Im sure they are fine people, but they could not have a developed in a lab a more dumpster fire plan of action on the bans and everything that has happened since then. They didnt communicate with the community or the cag before making these horrible decisions that split the community and we criticized them for it. We were called a holes for calling them out on it and lo and behold not a week later they throw the entire format into the trash can because *drum roll* THEY DIDNT COMMUNICATE WITH ANYONE OR THE CAG BEFORE MAKING ANOTHER DECISION ON EVERYONES BEHALF.
There are very few things i hate that the RC did One was having hybrid mana not work the way it was intended Another was banning golos But i wouldnt give any hate to them for either of these They are people and i think thats what was forgotten
As usual, Capitalism is to blame. All of these threats came as a result of the impact on speculators on the secondary market- people who want to use our hobby as "stock market lite" and who don't care about the actual state of the game. No player cares enough about which card is or isn't legal in a card game to make threats but those money grubbing, rent finding, "investor" types have no morals to begin with. They'd sell their own mother's kidney in her sleep so it's no surprise they aren't above threatening a bunch of people just trying to curate a fun game. What we need to do now is flood he secondary market with forgery-level proxies and make their precious "portfolios" worthless so they'll leave our hobby alone.
i hate the bans and think they were absolutely the wrong move and hate the concept of rule 0 discussions in the first place but its not a reason to do death threats. but this isnt the entire player bases fault. its a loud vocal minority, bringing attention to it gives those idiots more coverage and attention.
It's actually not my fault in the slightest that individuals chose to do dumbass things. You can include yourself in that "We" if you're so intent, though.
I gotta say, seeing grave titan in the bottom tier really illustrates the problem with the tier system imo. grave titan is not a super powered card on its own, but it combos off really well, so in the right deck it’s a very powerful play. and i’m surprised that you’re so behind it, considering you’re all about creating powerful decks without “powerful” expensive cards.
RC probably wanted to quit for awhile now. Frankly internet death threats are the equivlant of spam emails and if you aren't getting them it's just because you aren't popular enough yet. I'd guess they just got tired of all the flak all the time and saw this as a good excuse to hang up the cape.
Death threats are awful so... Can we maybe see some evidence of said threats? Are we just going to let people demonize a whole community for the ALLEGED work of a minority we can't even quantify? Show us how many people sent you death threats and once we've addressed that let's finally talk about the damn matter because it feels like they're using this to avoid getting blamed.
wow, comment section pretty trashy in here. It's just a few threats is not a good stance to take. also power level of your deck is affected way more by it's general than any card in the 99
The rude snarkiness is unnecessary. Usually when I sit down to play a boardgame in a social setting I generally don't have to talk about how many game pieces and which rules were going to play by. It can be a "social game" but also have people who are irrationally attached to bad rules. Like if you sit at a table and hear "no counters or infinite combos" that sounds like "blue has no removal and synergy is discouraged." It's nonsense. Tiers makes those conversations less difficult. At least at a tier 3 table I won't be told I can't play Swan Song. A banned list has always been antithetical to Rule 0. It's either rule 0 and figure it out or you ban cards for power level. Tiers fixes it. It's an elegant solution to a seemingly unsurmountable problem.
You really don't often talk about what parts of a game to use or not use and which rules to play by? I think that's pretty common in all games. Like in Monopoly you've never played a game where free parking gave you all the money in the center? Pretty common house rule, or rule 0. Or in a game like poker decided that jokers were wild (or not)? Or in a game like Smash decided to have 1 stock or 3 stock or 5 stock, or to play on one map or another? I think choosing the parameters of a game you play is pretty common across all kinds of games, not just Magic.
It's not similar at all. Those games you don't make decks, and take your time, effort and money to assemble them, gather your cards and sleeve them up, put them in a deckbox and hear "at this pod we don't play boardwipes" or "______ can't be your commander." Sure, rule 0 Mouse Trap when you tell players they have to place their mouse in such a way it can be captured. Don't act like people are anti social for not wanting to pitch their ideas for how they should play the cards that are legal in format. We standardize play experiences for people who are not intimately familiar with every single person they may encounter
My biggest frustration on this topic is the lumping of all the community in regards to anonymous toxic individuals that these death threats were made. We weren’t even given a chance to deal with the people pushing death threats in the first place and then we get blamed as a community for that. The word community here is doing a lot of heavy lifting to assert blame when I and those I play with didn’t do death threats. And even further, the very obvious manner in which Wizards after years of slowly arrest control of the format saw their opportunity and jumped on it to control the only major thing that had eluded their grasp.
10:13 as a start, i dont share this mentality to answer this question, but i can play devils advocate on this. Its not that they quit SOLELY on the basis that mana Jlo and dock were banned, its the principles being put in place. Any card thats considered powerful can be put on the chopping block, so its wondering if its worth continuing to play the game when any cards you play can suddenly get banned. I dont feel like i grasp the entire mentality to the issue because as i said, i dont share their sentiment (if you cant play your deck without those 3 cards, you shouldnt have them) but i can understand it from that perspective, and pesimisstic and final an opinion as it is.
I mean it’s like being mad hogaak is banned in modern or amalia is banned in pioneer. I want a game that doesn’t resolve to “do you play the busted card? No? Then you’re 3 steps behind everyone else” That just feels like coming into a solved puzzle and trying to use a hammer to unsolve it. It’s dumb to think a format like commander, that revolves around building your wincon as fast as possible, wouldn’t try to slow down that wincon so you can play more than 2 turns before being blasted by a rhystic study or the like.
This argument literally applies to any format and TCG ever. Why play anything at all if they may ban any card at any point? Like, that *is* the whole point of bans: they're a safeguard that the game designers (or the format designers in this case) can use at any point in order to safekeep a healthy meta
@@Ynwell_theslaaneshi "That just feels like coming into a solved puzzle and trying to use a hammer to unsolve it." This is the mindset of most of my deck builds. "Here's the metagame... what can we do to ruin it?"
its more like the fact that the rules committee is directly encroaching on cedh they basically said “hi yknow how cedh players love how fast and combo-heavy and homogenized their side of the format is? yea, we dont like that direction. screw those guys. start banning all the stuff that makes the format that way.”
I love how this rewards the wrong people. You just set a precedent that if you send enough death threats, we will change ownership. Also you rewarded people for not running social interaction huge miss in my mind. (Sarcasm, in case that wasn't clear)
Commander has and always will be a format of the players. WotC stole EDH and tried to make money off of it. It has always been a competitive format between friends, to see who can come up with the most fucked up combination of 100 cards. And it will always be that, no matter what WotC does or says.
"to see who can come up with the most fucked up combination of 100 cards." No, that is not the point, and that mentality is precisely why this format needs a large ban list.
This is not the MTG community fault. The broad majority of us didn't make any threats nor could had foreseen or stop any of the threats that occurred. The toxic players making threats are a small number of players, and most of those threats are not legitimate. Its wrong to make them, but its mostly immature people lacking self-restraint and blowing up in a tirade. The MTG community is only playing with the cards that WOTC are producing. The actual problem is WOTC being greedy and exploiting the balance of the game for short term profits by producing broken cards. How is a Black Lotus for a tutored OP card my entire deck built around balanced? Mana accelerations is always powerful.
I see all the kicking and screaming about banning cards from EDH and I just think to myself... stop getting so invested in games you have no control over the development of. Jeweled Lotus never should have been created, and that's where it sits. Mana Crypt being banned is sad, except that it was never meant to be a card for everyone in the first place. It was never printed in a proper set, just like Jeweled Lotus. It's not meant to be in every EDH deck in the world. It's not even meant for EDH really, but it wasn't a problem before because of its extreme rarity, until they started printing it as a chase card. (But they refuse to reprint anything on the reserved list... it's absolutely stupid.)
At 21:00 i understand the reason for the snide remark. I wont bash you for that. What I will say however is that your second statement of "this is a social format", yet so is every other format of every other card game. The social aspect is playing the game. The RC just wanted Commander to be a Turn 15 format, which imo is ridiculous, and let's use your example from the Modern Pre-Con video that Modern is a Turn 4 format. Commander, at the highest power levels, is a Turn 3 format, now not everyone wants to play that, I get that. But the pre-game chit chat, again this is completely my viewpoint, should be discussed before you ever walk into the LGS. "Commander Night, bring your bracket 1 decks". "Commander Night, bring your bracket 3 decks". It shouldn't be up to the individual players to self police. Because if Rule 0 discussions was truly the silver bullet that kills all bad interactions ever. We wouldn't have a need for a ban list at all. The table would self police. We wouldn't need a Rules Committee at all, wizards or otherwise. The problem is that it's not a silver bullet, and goes right back to a comment you made earlier in the video "oh well you can't base the format off a million fringe cases".
@@aaronwishard7093 Nope. Wrong again. You're good at that, y'know, being wrong. I'm staunchly anti-pubstomping in EDH. In other card games, like YGO, the only format people play is the one where you play to win, so complaining about pubstomping there is retarded.
@@HavocTheWendigo I’ve seen all of those things come and go, not to mention seeing Weitz’ Academy firsthand and playing during Affinity’s hayday. Also, Aetherworks Marvel by WotC’s own admission didn’t deserve the ban. It had a sub 50% win rate but it was a “fun ban” which isn’t a banning philosophy I think is great. I prefer “fun bans” to “price bans” though. The rules committee used both, though, so I’m here for the change.
@@jayemdaewarehouse9027 the Rc never banned on price take Wotc boot out your mouth. Wotc have time and time again refused to ban cards that needed to be banned just so they can get more money out of people.
@@HavocTheWendigo The rules committee under Menery has literally made statements regarding the policy of banning based on price before. Price is why the only power nine card not on the ban list is Timetwister: it was a sub $100 card at the time of the banning. You’re new, you don’t know yet. I get it. I have my problems with WotC, I despise their reprint policy and overprinting practices which have ground card prices to dust and shaken confidence in the Reserved List as one example amongst many, but I trust them more than five random people with complete control over a format.
@@jayemdaewarehouse9027 It's their format, literally. They came up with it and the fact that you play it is a testament to the reason they created it in the first place - because it's a new way to play the game. I don't agree with Wizards having anything to do with it, including printing cards meant specifically for it. They're poisoning the well.
The bans made me want to keep playing EDH. I was considering dismantling my EDH decks to make a cube for a while but the bans gave me hope for the format.
Now, with these recent updates, I have followed through. On a happy note, my cube is coming along well.
I am sad that it has come to this though. I hope we as a people become better one day in the future.
I’m so saddened that there were people who would threaten RC members over bans. I hate that it has come to this.
I feel icky being a Magic player and fan
@@lancelotto475 it’s not your fault that some people decided to be investors in a card game…and it’s certainly not your fault that people decided to be awful on the internet when given an opportunity.
@@jlaw131985 I know, but it's an association thing for me.
Sorry to say. This is the true face of the audience Wizards has been courting as of late. Legit ever since they've been openly political with secret lairs and "rascist card" bans. This toxicity has been pushing out the oldheads who just wanted to play a fantasy game for a long while. Add onto that expensive cards value being wiped out and you get angry people with a history of threats to get their way (there's a reason why Wizards did the bans i mentioned and it was so their HQ in Seattle didn't burn down for not toeing the line) suddenly losing a lot of money all at once. You can get the picture from there
@@UmbraBree my guy out here defending “invoke prejudice” or “jihad”
Cards that were never good and openly depicting racist imagery, but “I wanna play my fantasy game where my white creatures kill the bad black ones”
I'm honestly just stunned by all this still. I quit Magic back when the War of the Spark novel thing happened, I left again when Arena's economy got too hard to keep up with. But I kept coming back, and now I play almost exclusively commander. I have a regular playgroup now, hell it built my entire social circle after years of knowing no one but my husband in our entire state... I can't just leave the game now, but sweet jesus guys... Death threats?!!! One of my friends that works at my LGS asked me what I thought of the bans and if we weren't in a quiet part of the store, I wouldn't have answered him... I've never had a better reason to leave this community... But I just can't now, so I don't know what to do other than brace myself and hope this community never fails itself this hard again. I know you lost a lot of value on those cards, but seriously? Don't we have enough violence in the world already? And over cardboard...
The good news is that we're probably safe in the short term. If Wizards/Hasbro do something to abuse their new power, the community will likely just ignore them and we'll see the rise of another fan-run RC equivalent. We're used to policing our own game, so (at least in the short term), the threat of "if we print something bonkers, the RC will just ban it and we won't make any money" is still there. The problem comes only after they've done a good job with the format for a while and Hasbro decides to force the squeeze. Hopefully by then, we'll still remember that Wizards doesn't TRULY own the EDH format, and never will.
This is what I've been trying to preach, 95% of commander play is completely outside sanctioned events so unless LGSs start to enforce rules, wotc really doesn't have the last say in any decision. I have no doubt that should they start to make scummy decisions people will just reform an independent RC and things will go on as normal.
I used to encourage having a rule zero conversation with my old play group, but half the group chose to not engage with it, and or one player in particular would go out of her way to try and screw someone out. She rarely succeeded, but knowing she would use these conversations to try to “counter pick” (for a lack of better word) created a hostile environment. Im optimistic about this new system, having a streamlined system to rank our decks can only be positive. (Assuming the ranks are accurate)
That last part is kind or the crux though and considering what they've proposed so far I am not hopeful that it won't just require a lot more "well my deck is a _ besides 1-2 cards". They've tried to rank individual cards on arena which doesn't really work, here it's even more severe.
It is early though so I hope they take some feedback and make some changes, would love to see them try and tier synergies/combos/wincons because i feel like that's so much more accurate and less prone to manipulation than "high card"
It is easier to rule 0 something in than it is to rule 0 something out.
Don't think that's true. Anecdotes are fundamentally limited, but it seems harder to get buy-in for some stuff like (reasonable) silver-border cards than enforcing the social pressure on nastier non-banned cards.
@canamrock people are more likely to let someone else do something, than being pressured to not do something.
the people who sent those threats over a 4 card ban are so weak, they wouldn't survive a day as yugioh players.
Gods that's bringing me back to the good old days, when I used to go to the card shop with a thing of deodorant in my back pocket for other people
Yugioh and Pokemon had anime to bring in new players magic doesn't have that they need secondary market to help drive sales that's the difference konami can give them the finger but wizards can't
@@rokmare not an excuse.
From what i have seen around me in our edh groups... it is not the commander playser not even the cedh players that was mad it is like 3 guys thats gets cards for investments... 😢
It's interesting you bring up Cedh, and a lack of brewing. There is an impression that players in Cedh enjoy that format because of It's relative stability. It only changes slightly, and rarely suffers massive shake ups. It's the same way Modern was viewed before the Horizons sets were introduced (much to Prof's chagrin). It's a fascinating psychological study on some people's need for stability.
cedh is ironically the most pure form of edh, just shuffle up and play. none of this "what kind of game do you want" nonsense. which how it should be. rule 0 is the absolute worst thing about edh.
@@konata8657 most pure form of EDH was Sheldon Menerey, without whom you wouldn't be playing his format.
I hope a better way to phrase it would be
"The total of my deck is a 108"
Where everything above a 1 would fit in that extra 8 points or "I am 8 points above tier 1"
Much like your Yu-Gi-Oh video game example😊
There are 11 different decks that fit that description though, and they play pretty differently. A deck with 8 Bracket 2 cards is not a deck with 4 Bracket 3 cards is not a deck with a Bracket 2, 2 Bracket 3s and a Bracket 4.
@@nickalasmontano1496 that's a fair point
@@nickalasmontano1496And on top of that tying strength to single cards is just prone to exploitation. A deck that's all 2s can still have pre-turn 5 wins, infinite combos, and other things that will stomp even a high power deck unless they literally tier every combo piece in magic. But at that point using those cards outside that tier will make an otherwise precon-equal deck look like high power.
If anyone genuinely thinks WOTC wasn't already fundamentally controlling the format, I have some Mana Crypts to sell you.
Genuinely u are right, it is sad as a casual player to see people get so viscerally upset about this. No matter how much you may disagree with a decision, it is no reason to threaten someone over it. Its a card game, we are adults, we can act like adults, or at least i’d hope we can
The vast majority of us can. Unfortunately because of the nature of thee internet it only takes a small handful of sub human degenerates to ruin everything for everyone else.
I have a strong feeling the people who were the most angry weren't actually players mad their decks got nerfed, it was people who were invested in cardboard. I guarantee if these cards were sol-ring cheap this controversy wouldn't be more than a mild grumble
Tiny tiny nitpick: "meta" does not stand for "most efficient tactic available", that's a backronym. It comes from "metagame", literally the external factors that affect the game (what decks are most popular, for example).
I go as far as building "meta decks" that usually target the metagame instead of having a specific plan themselves. I use things like Stifle and Gaea's Blessing that can interact with a lot of opposing win conditions and screw them up. (Countering a Storm trigger with Stifle is one of the sauciest things in Magic.)
Players rage quitting over bans makes me wish I could post a Bye Felicia GIF here.
"I don't want to have a conversation with people before the game"
That's what cEDH is for
that's how all edh should be. we here to play, not ask for permission to play the cards we own
Whoa whoa whoa, don’t send those trogs to us. Just because you clearly don’t think to highly of us doesn’t mean we’re the strawman of us in your head.
@@konata8657Bro, no. It’s about compromise. If every one else is running upgraded precons don’t run cards like Rhystic Study or Mana Tithe and the like.
@@AgentMurphy286 compromise goes both ways. they can easily proxy in a mana crypt.
I don't think they belong to any particular group except being selfish and not interested in making sure everyone has a good game.
There's nothing dead about it, if you have a group you like to play with then you'll be playing regardless of what rules are enacted or who imposed them.
Whenever I sit down with a new deck I generally explain what I’m trying to do with the deck.
I run bumbleflower and explain how I want to win by pulling out the omniscience and shrieking drake to give them an idea how I play.
If I play satya I explain that it’s etb focus with energy payoff for lighting runners and such.
I find this gives me better games that have better interaction and politics because when people have an idea of what you are doing they aren’t worried about super random things.
"when people have an idea of what you are doing they aren’t worried about super random things" Super random things make games interesting though. Like throwing down a Wheel of Fortune just to give everyone a new hand, or slamming a Reins of Power to end the game.
I play vren the relentless and my goal is to make you sacrifice any creature you put on the board
@@Sauvenil im more talking about people over analyzing a board state. i had a friend meteor golem a cultivator caravan when we started playing which we always reference. this was before neon dynasty so nothing like Kona to worry about.
i will admit pre ban i did enjoy turn 1 mountain, mana crypt into a wheel of fortune was a very enjoyable time.
One of the best perspectives out there. Thank you for not sugar coating that it was the communities fault, and now we are going to get what we deserve. Get ready for your toxic "victory?" You have no idea what's coming. I feel bad for everyone who had a reasonable response to all the bans. Things will never be the same. Everyone share this video.
When I heard about the points system my reaction was basically, "Oh! I love that idea! Setting actual power scales and creating an easy to understand chat for deck power that you don't have to have a PHD in Magic interactions and combos to understand when and where a card is busted is fantastic! Oh wait, its Wizard's handling it? Damn, RIP."
the death of mana crypt, jeweled lotus, dockside weakens my boros Osgir deck. Just pushes edh into green because mana dorks and acceleration
just more boros hate
Hoping that this will bring more attention to the multiplayer "Conquest" format now (80+ cards, singleton, 30 life, 12 max cmdr dmg, with its own banned list that includes the reserved list).
That just sounds like a worse EDH.
12 commander damage? Why bother even starting a game?
@@bcoo111 Who really looked at Voltron and said, "Wow, this deck really needs to be more of a threat than it is right now?"
@@Cybertech134in all fairness voltron isn’t good. It’s good at turning one player into paste and then getting put down by the other two players who had time to set up while you one shot the third
@@ericheidgerd1064 With 12 commander damage, there is less time for the others to set up.
Sorry for the long comment, but a similar idea has been on my mind for months (even made a reddit post a long time ago too). Now that the bracket system seems to be the way going forward here are my thoughts.
I think a 5 bracket system would work better than 4. That way, we have 3 being average rather than people trying to do a weird 2.5 style deck to try and sneak their way to a lower bracket. I don't know if we need to have every card labeled for a bracket (like do we need to dedicate space for cards that have only flavor text on them that never see play).
I think the only cards that need to be in a bracket are cards that need to be slotted into those levels because any lower would be too strong. There are so many cards in the game that trying to police every single one is going to be too much for people to agree on. Just focus on the ones that people want addressed and that way we can get updated lists where cards are moved around the brackets or put on it. This would also create new metas to help keep the game fresh at all levels of play, because let's be honest there will be people trying to make the strongest meta defining bracket 1 and 2 decks just as much as they would with a 3 and 4 decks.
Your last point is kind of my hesitation around this whole system depending on how strict people end up being with tiers. There will be tier 1 decks that can stomp tables of "casual tier 3 decks" that only have a few listed tier 3 cards. Tying strength to single cards will just make the people hellbent on pubstomping find a way around it, I doubt that it'll actually fix anything more than it is now and in the worst case I can see this just inadvertently creating tiered competitive formats
People most likely wouldn't run Labman instead of Thassa's Oracle, no. It's altogether too vulnerable to too many vectors of interaction to risk. Tainted Pact and Demonic Consultation would most likely become niche again, like they were before Oracle entered the scene. This is not to say that cEDH would be fucked without Thoracle, just that it would be a bigger shake-up than you give it credit for.
And as for people who couldn't run their decks anymore post-ban, those are mainly fringe cEDH decks that relied on the explosiveness of the banned cards to field less mana-efficient wincons. Slicer and Godo are examples of this, but I'm sure there are a bunch of others that I'm just not privy too at this juncture. They can't compete with the control-laden decks at the top anymore, so they'll either have to scrap their decks and start over, or let them fall down to high power, where they're likely to still be too strong for most high power decks to fight, unless they further change them. I don't envy that situation, I'll be honest.
Those are both asides to the main point of the video though.
I share your misgivings about Wizards running the format, and I'm very worried that this system won't address the actual issue. Most non-games I've seen, and admittedly it hasn't been that many, wasn't the 'Turn 1 Land-Crypt-Signet-Demonic Tutor into Consult-Thoracle on turn 2' sorts of deals. They were highly synergistic and resilient value piles being brought into janky or budget'y pods. If a non-game is of the former kind, you can just ask them to swap decks or leave the pod, and at worst the better part of 10 minutes were wasted for you. The latter kind, however, drags on, while you're not allowed to play Magic but where it would be rude to just throw up your hands and give up, even if you can see that the outcome is all but guaranteed.
I'm wondering how this bucket system will account for that. Can it do that at all? Because, as you pointed out, the synergy piles are edge cases. Almost any commander (But most offenders seem to be either containing Simic colors or Dimir colors) and most cards they use can range from alright, all the way to a huge piece of shit, to play against, depending on how they're built. And this is without playing tutors, fast mana, free spells and what have you.
I would prefer tiers care about game play loops and not cards. As a person who builds weird decks I'd prefer this. I ran mana crypt in my coin flip deck(only kinda salty it was bad for the format and I never tapped it for mana just used it to trigger win coin flip cards) I run cards like this all the time. I love using powerful cards in weird ways that somehow undermined thier power but also generate resources in weird way. This system is better but I'd prefer a system that cards about modes of play and closing turns.
I am really sorry to all you people who got mad about taking out dockside but I for one was considering it weeks ago and only hadn't done it because I didn't have a good replacement for it. This kicked me in the ass and I'm having a better time with other cards trying to find a good fit. My little janky six deck that I proxy the dockside for. Because I took out dioxide is now approaching a seven. Trying to find what makes it work now has made me a better player.
An Armaggeddon put in by someone who constructed their deck with a solid game plan usually makes the game go faster as opposed to a casual throwing in a Farewell just because.
WOTCs greed, whether its in D&D or Magic, means this will only be a bad thing. The sheer possible threat of an independent group acting as a check & balance for purely busted card design was a net good. That's completely gone, and theres not just a financial incentive but an actual legal requirement to maximize profits for shareholder benefit. There's gonna be 2-3 busted cards heavily promoted and advertised every set forever, and whether they get banned after a year or so is largely irrelevant.
As far as the point or tier system, I don't hate it even if its kind of bad. Canadian Highlander might have been a more interesting format to me and my friends if their version had a command zone.
My main worry here on the new system is which cards go well to fit to WotC's bottom line.
For example, back in MKL we had Jeska's Will in one of the precons. By Gavin's words, precons should stick to being Tier 1. This means that if WotC prints any chase card in a precon, as they tend to do with all of them, those chase cards either break their own system, making precons of the bracket they obviously are not in, or they would stop printing those chase cards outside packs, which would raise their secondary market value
Important to note that the "powelevel" thing was always in the hands of WotC, which is the thing that Olivia was defending on the no-ban of lotus and crypt. She wanted to wait for WotC to release it before action was taken against those two cards, and the fact that all went to shit is why this project, which is still under development, was revealed this soon, before more time was spent to hone it and tune it.
About to start the video, but I this situation only affects play at the lgs and sanctioned events, and ofc product
I appreciate your honest assessment, and it reflects many of the feelings I have been having over this whole situation as well.
As long as people believe they can hide behind a username and VPN, this kind of stuff will happen. Look at the video gamer online community as an example. IRL interaction is more moderated because the consequence of acting stupid are immediate and tangible. The internet isn't the real world
While I can understand why the RC supposedly stepped down I still maintain the stance that yielding to pressure is a mistake.
So you think they should've risked the possibility of people actually killing them and their families over trying to protect themselves and their families?
people, don't get distracted
yes harassment bad
but, that's not the point, the point is WotC sold you premium product at top dollar price that you bought for the perceived price of certain cards, and then said company destroyed that perceived price
focus, the harassment thing should only be a side note on the conversation
That has always been a risk, unfortunately. I'm sorry for your loss of value, but, in the future, don't gamble if you're not prepared to lose.
"...then you didn't have a deck in the first place, you had a pile!"
🗿..yes?
"you just relied on powerful staples, that doesn't mean you have a well built deck!!"
🗿..and?
"sry, thats an opinion i'm willing to sit on forever"
🗿..cool. imma go play some 60+ card kitchen table until the bans are reverted. I just brewed up something with the mlp cards and crusader templars i've been itching to test.
'The curtains close on a kiss God knows...'
Drannith and armageddon in higher tiers worry me a fair bit, some people are going to want to play tier 1-2 and just get stomped by mr solitaire sultai that kind of just stomps everybody because noone brought control since their pieces are not that good in lower tiers because people think its not "fun" to slow the game down.
You're not very smart if you think Armageddon stops Sultai.
@@Cybertech134 I mean it was more of a signpost for me but youre right it doesnt
A Ratio select format would be interesting in a card game. they recently did this kind of tournament for Marvel vs Capcom after some top players organize and put together based off of Capcom Vs SNK
My main deck is literally juat "I make Big Monster, they step on you." You can blow me up with a sneeze. You can block me out, and if you have prot from green im basically rendered useless. But when i can pop off and actually go nuts? Squish.
For the most part, i run precons. I generally dont have the funds for a massive collection to make decks from. Theyre nit rhe best, but if i had time i could strip thise decks apart and make a mega synergy set up, such as White-Green population bombing via token generation and boosting.
I'm so happy with the 4 level system. I hope they don't bungle it.
I appreciate the broader topic here, but I also just learned in this video they intend to make sol ring a 1, which I have no words to explain my rage at. At least, at least a 2, so I can say, “I’m running a power level 1 deck with nothing outside of it.” And get people to play decks without it, but the fact they can’t even admit it’s a problem is so infuriating. Saying it’s a 4 and just having people assume it’s in the deck would have been the easiest thing in the world. I’m so angry right now, I just need to calm down. This is such an infuriating decision. I want to play an edh format without that awful card taking up a slot in every deck for the love of god.
Well, new "rule 0" conversation in the years to come will be: Do we play EDH or New Commander? xD Commander is basically a incredible big homebrew of a game, don't forget that.
Also, want to say that the RC made the wrong move to move far from the threats. Ask the CAG, ask the community, and as the last resort, go to the corporation.
Im so disappointed in the magic community as a whole over this. I dont want wizards to run commander into the ground like i think is absolutely inevitable.
The RC cut the community literally if half, told the fast mana players to pound sand. The casuals said "haha, you arent welcome here this is OUR game". Then a few bad actors threatened people and we lost the RC. Now, as a consequence, disagreeing with the bans may as well make you a terrorist sympathizer "because the baddies might win" and the pro ban folk are acting like martyrs and ignoring a full half of the player base who want the cards unbanned.
The pro ban half of the community has been just as caustic and trash as anyone else since the bans were announced. And the RC quite frankly deserved to be dissolved. Im sure they are fine people, but they could not have a developed in a lab a more dumpster fire plan of action on the bans and everything that has happened since then. They didnt communicate with the community or the cag before making these horrible decisions that split the community and we criticized them for it. We were called a holes for calling them out on it and lo and behold not a week later they throw the entire format into the trash can because *drum roll* THEY DIDNT COMMUNICATE WITH ANYONE OR THE CAG BEFORE MAKING ANOTHER DECISION ON EVERYONES BEHALF.
There are very few things i hate that the RC did
One was having hybrid mana not work the way it was intended
Another was banning golos
But i wouldnt give any hate to them for either of these
They are people and i think thats what was forgotten
I don’t hear anyone trying to take the rc back why can’t we do that
As usual, Capitalism is to blame. All of these threats came as a result of the impact on speculators on the secondary market- people who want to use our hobby as "stock market lite" and who don't care about the actual state of the game. No player cares enough about which card is or isn't legal in a card game to make threats but those money grubbing, rent finding, "investor" types have no morals to begin with. They'd sell their own mother's kidney in her sleep so it's no surprise they aren't above threatening a bunch of people just trying to curate a fun game. What we need to do now is flood he secondary market with forgery-level proxies and make their precious "portfolios" worthless so they'll leave our hobby alone.
i hate the bans and think they were absolutely the wrong move and hate the concept of rule 0 discussions in the first place but its not a reason to do death threats. but this isnt the entire player bases fault. its a loud vocal minority, bringing attention to it gives those idiots more coverage and attention.
who is saying it's the majority?
Time sell all my magic and play flesh and blood
It's actually not my fault in the slightest that individuals chose to do dumbass things. You can include yourself in that "We" if you're so intent, though.
cool story bro
Which tier would Dig Up and Analyze the Pollen, both optional tutors, be in in your opinion, Suris?
I gotta say, seeing grave titan in the bottom tier really illustrates the problem with the tier system imo. grave titan is not a super powered card on its own, but it combos off really well, so in the right deck it’s a very powerful play. and i’m surprised that you’re so behind it, considering you’re all about creating powerful decks without “powerful” expensive cards.
I had a proxy jeweled lotus (planned on buying a real one eventually) i replaced it with mystic remora
RC probably wanted to quit for awhile now. Frankly internet death threats are the equivlant of spam emails and if you aren't getting them it's just because you aren't popular enough yet. I'd guess they just got tired of all the flak all the time and saw this as a good excuse to hang up the cape.
If i can play my Ur Dragon Deck at level 2 cause i dont run good stuff like rystic study.... its gonna be a funny era.
There's no way Ur Dragon is a level 2.
Death threats are awful so... Can we maybe see some evidence of said threats? Are we just going to let people demonize a whole community for the ALLEGED work of a minority we can't even quantify? Show us how many people sent you death threats and once we've addressed that let's finally talk about the damn matter because it feels like they're using this to avoid getting blamed.
my thoughts exactly
its just a vocal minority.
its bad behavior but it isn't the fault of the entire playerbase. that's such a terrible take to have
Then what? What do you get out of that? Oh boohoo, you're getting 'demonized'. Grow up
how many is acceptable? why would they make that up? Are you OK?
@@pascalsimioli6777 the hell you need “proof” of death threats??
Day 18 of requesting a budget Taniwha edh deck ~
wow, comment section pretty trashy in here. It's just a few threats is not a good stance to take. also power level of your deck is affected way more by it's general than any card in the 99
The rude snarkiness is unnecessary. Usually when I sit down to play a boardgame in a social setting I generally don't have to talk about how many game pieces and which rules were going to play by. It can be a "social game" but also have people who are irrationally attached to bad rules.
Like if you sit at a table and hear "no counters or infinite combos" that sounds like "blue has no removal and synergy is discouraged." It's nonsense. Tiers makes those conversations less difficult. At least at a tier 3 table I won't be told I can't play Swan Song.
A banned list has always been antithetical to Rule 0. It's either rule 0 and figure it out or you ban cards for power level. Tiers fixes it. It's an elegant solution to a seemingly unsurmountable problem.
False equivalence. Most board games are not regularly updated multiple times a year with unfun or powercrept mechanics.
You really don't often talk about what parts of a game to use or not use and which rules to play by? I think that's pretty common in all games. Like in Monopoly you've never played a game where free parking gave you all the money in the center? Pretty common house rule, or rule 0. Or in a game like poker decided that jokers were wild (or not)? Or in a game like Smash decided to have 1 stock or 3 stock or 5 stock, or to play on one map or another? I think choosing the parameters of a game you play is pretty common across all kinds of games, not just Magic.
It's not similar at all. Those games you don't make decks, and take your time, effort and money to assemble them, gather your cards and sleeve them up, put them in a deckbox and hear "at this pod we don't play boardwipes" or "______ can't be your commander."
Sure, rule 0 Mouse Trap when you tell players they have to place their mouse in such a way it can be captured. Don't act like people are anti social for not wanting to pitch their ideas for how they should play the cards that are legal in format. We standardize play experiences for people who are not intimately familiar with every single person they may encounter
My biggest frustration on this topic is the lumping of all the community in regards to anonymous toxic individuals that these death threats were made. We weren’t even given a chance to deal with the people pushing death threats in the first place and then we get blamed as a community for that. The word community here is doing a lot of heavy lifting to assert blame when I and those I play with didn’t do death threats.
And even further, the very obvious manner in which Wizards after years of slowly arrest control of the format saw their opportunity and jumped on it to control the only major thing that had eluded their grasp.
10:13 as a start, i dont share this mentality to answer this question, but i can play devils advocate on this.
Its not that they quit SOLELY on the basis that mana Jlo and dock were banned, its the principles being put in place. Any card thats considered powerful can be put on the chopping block, so its wondering if its worth continuing to play the game when any cards you play can suddenly get banned.
I dont feel like i grasp the entire mentality to the issue because as i said, i dont share their sentiment (if you cant play your deck without those 3 cards, you shouldnt have them) but i can understand it from that perspective, and pesimisstic and final an opinion as it is.
I mean it’s like being mad hogaak is banned in modern or amalia is banned in pioneer.
I want a game that doesn’t resolve to “do you play the busted card? No? Then you’re 3 steps behind everyone else”
That just feels like coming into a solved puzzle and trying to use a hammer to unsolve it.
It’s dumb to think a format like commander, that revolves around building your wincon as fast as possible, wouldn’t try to slow down that wincon so you can play more than 2 turns before being blasted by a rhystic study or the like.
This argument literally applies to any format and TCG ever. Why play anything at all if they may ban any card at any point? Like, that *is* the whole point of bans: they're a safeguard that the game designers (or the format designers in this case) can use at any point in order to safekeep a healthy meta
@@Ynwell_theslaaneshi "That just feels like coming into a solved puzzle and trying to use a hammer to unsolve it." This is the mindset of most of my deck builds. "Here's the metagame... what can we do to ruin it?"
its more like the fact that the rules committee is directly encroaching on cedh
they basically said “hi yknow how cedh players love how fast and combo-heavy and homogenized their side of the format is? yea, we dont like that direction. screw those guys. start banning all the stuff that makes the format that way.”
I agree, most people lost trust in the RC when they did the ban.
Not that it matters anymore though 🤷♀️
Correct opinions!
I love how this rewards the wrong people. You just set a precedent that if you send enough death threats, we will change ownership. Also you rewarded people for not running social interaction huge miss in my mind.
(Sarcasm, in case that wasn't clear)
EDH IS DEAD, LONG LIVE COMMANDER!
Commander has and always will be a format of the players. WotC stole EDH and tried to make money off of it. It has always been a competitive format between friends, to see who can come up with the most fucked up combination of 100 cards.
And it will always be that, no matter what WotC does or says.
"to see who can come up with the most fucked up combination of 100 cards."
No, that is not the point, and that mentality is precisely why this format needs a large ban list.
You seem like a smart and reasonable person with good takes but the anime cat with jiggle physics is straining my ability to take you seriously 😅
Skill issue
RC: *makes controversial card bans.*
MTG Community: “RC dies to removal tho”
Suris: *facepalm*
this event made me quit magic.
these are toys, not stocks
This is not the MTG community fault. The broad majority of us didn't make any threats nor could had foreseen or stop any of the threats that occurred. The toxic players making threats are a small number of players, and most of those threats are not legitimate. Its wrong to make them, but its mostly immature people lacking self-restraint and blowing up in a tirade. The MTG community is only playing with the cards that WOTC are producing. The actual problem is WOTC being greedy and exploiting the balance of the game for short term profits by producing broken cards. How is a Black Lotus for a tutored OP card my entire deck built around balanced? Mana accelerations is always powerful.
I see all the kicking and screaming about banning cards from EDH and I just think to myself... stop getting so invested in games you have no control over the development of.
Jeweled Lotus never should have been created, and that's where it sits. Mana Crypt being banned is sad, except that it was never meant to be a card for everyone in the first place. It was never printed in a proper set, just like Jeweled Lotus. It's not meant to be in every EDH deck in the world. It's not even meant for EDH really, but it wasn't a problem before because of its extreme rarity, until they started printing it as a chase card. (But they refuse to reprint anything on the reserved list... it's absolutely stupid.)
Had to break 69 likes 😔
At 21:00 i understand the reason for the snide remark. I wont bash you for that. What I will say however is that your second statement of "this is a social format", yet so is every other format of every other card game. The social aspect is playing the game. The RC just wanted Commander to be a Turn 15 format, which imo is ridiculous, and let's use your example from the Modern Pre-Con video that Modern is a Turn 4 format. Commander, at the highest power levels, is a Turn 3 format, now not everyone wants to play that, I get that. But the pre-game chit chat, again this is completely my viewpoint, should be discussed before you ever walk into the LGS.
"Commander Night, bring your bracket 1 decks". "Commander Night, bring your bracket 3 decks". It shouldn't be up to the individual players to self police. Because if Rule 0 discussions was truly the silver bullet that kills all bad interactions ever. We wouldn't have a need for a ban list at all. The table would self police. We wouldn't need a Rules Committee at all, wizards or otherwise. The problem is that it's not a silver bullet, and goes right back to a comment you made earlier in the video "oh well you can't base the format off a million fringe cases".
"Yet so is every other format of every other card game"
No the fuck it isn't. You said this so confidently, too. 😂
@@Cybertech134 Glad to know that when you play a card game you're there to pubstomp. There isn't any social aspect at all.
@@aaronwishard7093 Nope. Wrong again. You're good at that, y'know, being wrong. I'm staunchly anti-pubstomping in EDH. In other card games, like YGO, the only format people play is the one where you play to win, so complaining about pubstomping there is retarded.
I've wanted the RC out of commander for years. Make it actually democratic. I never wanted it to come like this
Democratic? No game company runs a game like that. This isn't a government; you're being ridiculous.
Screw finance bros
Reject Commander, embrace conquest
Reject conquest, embrace Commander.
Today I learned that meta was an acronym XD
Technically,.meta is greek. Most effective tactic available is a backronym
It isn't. It's a backronym. It's a word ('after' in greek) that people decided to make an acronym post-hoc.
I’ve been one of the people hoping WotC takes over from the rules committee for nearly a decade, so I’m happy about the change myself.
Ahhhh yes cause they handle bans so well pay no attention to hogaak, nadu, aetherworks, and eldrazi winter
@@HavocTheWendigo I’ve seen all of those things come and go, not to mention seeing Weitz’ Academy firsthand and playing during Affinity’s hayday. Also, Aetherworks Marvel by WotC’s own admission didn’t deserve the ban. It had a sub 50% win rate but it was a “fun ban” which isn’t a banning philosophy I think is great. I prefer “fun bans” to “price bans” though. The rules committee used both, though, so I’m here for the change.
@@jayemdaewarehouse9027 the Rc never banned on price take Wotc boot out your mouth. Wotc have time and time again refused to ban cards that needed to be banned just so they can get more money out of people.
@@HavocTheWendigo The rules committee under Menery has literally made statements regarding the policy of banning based on price before. Price is why the only power nine card not on the ban list is Timetwister: it was a sub $100 card at the time of the banning. You’re new, you don’t know yet. I get it. I have my problems with WotC, I despise their reprint policy and overprinting practices which have ground card prices to dust and shaken confidence in the Reserved List as one example amongst many, but I trust them more than five random people with complete control over a format.
@@jayemdaewarehouse9027 It's their format, literally. They came up with it and the fact that you play it is a testament to the reason they created it in the first place - because it's a new way to play the game. I don't agree with Wizards having anything to do with it, including printing cards meant specifically for it. They're poisoning the well.
The rc literally just throw the rock and run to hide behind wotc, useless rc in my opinion