I'm currently running it and I've gone with an advice guide to remove all but one Black Gate per Sector otherwise it's too easy (because a Black Gate lets you teleport to the Gatehouse at anytime). Syranna has explained how they reach the Phylactery and created an NPC homunculus called 'Rikard' who manages the Glyphs/Gates for them. He's very obviously based on Richard O'Brien to reinforce 'The Crystal Maze' analogy :)
A few things that stick out to me about your recommendations: - Resting absolutely is an option, just not as easily as in some other adventures. You can short rest in the Vault after clearing out an area, but it might result in a random encounter. You can also definitely long rest in the Gatehouse, which is a relatively safe area that you enter the dungeon from. I'm kind of surprised that you didn't seem to mention the Gatehouse at all in this video. - The book already states that every Black Gate can be used to warp back to the Gatehouse, where they can rest and recuperate to some degree. It isn't true that the entry points are "the only way in or out", they're just the only way to get in initially. Once you have a few glyph keys you can warp out to the Gatehouse whenever you want, and then warp back in to anywhere that you have a Key for. Suggesting that the party fails if they warp out sounds like you expect them to be capable of getting through the whole dungeon without ever resting which seems... unrealistic. - I don't like the suggested change for getting into the Phylactery for a few reasons. Firstly, it makes it seem way less secure and secretive. As-written, the Phylactery is a super-secret special vault that only the head lich can access, and only a relatively small number of his underlings even know exists. Making it a random portal in the dungeon makes it feel like just another room. In addition, I can see this change making the adventure much longer, actually. It more heavily incentivizes the party to try to explore every single area of the Vault which I don't think is the intention of the writers. As-written, it's actually pretty quick and easy to disable enough Black Gates to unlock the Phylactery once the party knows how to do it; it only takes one and a half sectors worth of Gates. The DM can control how quickly they figure this out by choosing which lore pieces to divulge when they find lore. Your method on the other hand relies on them fighting their way through probably a large portion of the dungeon, and if they don't successfully interrogate the right people then they're kind of shit out of luck. - I think all the changes to "make it less confusing" are going overboard and making the dungeon seem way more mundane. It's supposed to be an inscrutable complex of arcane origin, not just a bunch of rooms underground. Maybe it's just my group, but my players tend to prefer scenarios that are more complex and give them more to chew on. I do like the suggestion about the White Gates though, especially the idea of putting them back in when the enemies become aware of the party's presence. And the changes to the monsters sound good as well.
Once you clear out a section of every dangerous monster you can set up rests with a watch person so yes I totally agree not to cripple the dungeon for ease. We are talking about lvl 9 players, these guys are freaking tough and need to be challenged.
Absolutely. I was looking for advice concerning some inconsistent concepts in the adventure. Gatehouse is one of them. If the characters can easily access the Gatehouse from black gates, they could simply rest in peace (joke) without being disturbed. First thing for me is to change this. But there are many other unlogic things, e.g. NPCs/monsters begging for glyph keys to flee the Doomvault. Whereto would they flee with a glyph key? Into the next zone? Etc. And things have to be balanced carefully of course. So if you make monsters harder AND make it difficult to rest, the party really may end up Dead in Thay very soon.
Great video, will definitely be taking pointers from it when I run this adventure come the time me and and my players sit down again at the table, come the end of lockdown.
I am about to run this dungeon as my first 5e. I've played D&D for at least 15 years from 78' to about 92' and we never liked it when there was no threat of dying so I may just keep the dungeon like it's set up but I think I will upgrade the multiple weak zombies and other fodder creatures into colossal zombies and similar. Thanks for the tips they have helped me out a ton.
Very helpful. Thanks for posting this and your suggestions. I’m looking to run this as a still newish DM. Can I ask 2 questions? First, do you print off the map or make a simpler version for the party? ( it is complex. Or does the party use the DM’s guidance to mentally picture the map). Secondly, I find all the books have so much/too much detail and complexity to easily/quickly soak up. Do you as DM know the campaign off pat or are you kind of familiar and using the guide to guide proceedings? I find I am always the DM. The others want to play but I have to do so much hard research to make it work that it can be kind of a drag. (I’m a dad trying to make it work for the family group and nit a DnD lover first and foremost!!). Thanks for taking time to read this (and reply!).
I want to talk about running a mega dungeon in an upcoming video I hope will answer these questions. But I find cutting complex content I can't explain and using a vtt or printed maps works great (not perfect, but better)
This looks like typical 5e bloat. You can picture the discussion at WotC HQ "What is better than a super powerful, deadly, evil Lich?" - DOZENS of super powerful, deadly, evil Liches of course! ....Yay
I'm currently running it and I've gone with an advice guide to remove all but one Black Gate per Sector otherwise it's too easy (because a Black Gate lets you teleport to the Gatehouse at anytime). Syranna has explained how they reach the Phylactery and created an NPC homunculus called 'Rikard' who manages the Glyphs/Gates for them. He's very obviously based on Richard O'Brien to reinforce 'The Crystal Maze' analogy :)
A few things that stick out to me about your recommendations:
- Resting absolutely is an option, just not as easily as in some other adventures. You can short rest in the Vault after clearing out an area, but it might result in a random encounter. You can also definitely long rest in the Gatehouse, which is a relatively safe area that you enter the dungeon from. I'm kind of surprised that you didn't seem to mention the Gatehouse at all in this video.
- The book already states that every Black Gate can be used to warp back to the Gatehouse, where they can rest and recuperate to some degree. It isn't true that the entry points are "the only way in or out", they're just the only way to get in initially. Once you have a few glyph keys you can warp out to the Gatehouse whenever you want, and then warp back in to anywhere that you have a Key for. Suggesting that the party fails if they warp out sounds like you expect them to be capable of getting through the whole dungeon without ever resting which seems... unrealistic.
- I don't like the suggested change for getting into the Phylactery for a few reasons. Firstly, it makes it seem way less secure and secretive. As-written, the Phylactery is a super-secret special vault that only the head lich can access, and only a relatively small number of his underlings even know exists. Making it a random portal in the dungeon makes it feel like just another room. In addition, I can see this change making the adventure much longer, actually. It more heavily incentivizes the party to try to explore every single area of the Vault which I don't think is the intention of the writers. As-written, it's actually pretty quick and easy to disable enough Black Gates to unlock the Phylactery once the party knows how to do it; it only takes one and a half sectors worth of Gates. The DM can control how quickly they figure this out by choosing which lore pieces to divulge when they find lore. Your method on the other hand relies on them fighting their way through probably a large portion of the dungeon, and if they don't successfully interrogate the right people then they're kind of shit out of luck.
- I think all the changes to "make it less confusing" are going overboard and making the dungeon seem way more mundane. It's supposed to be an inscrutable complex of arcane origin, not just a bunch of rooms underground. Maybe it's just my group, but my players tend to prefer scenarios that are more complex and give them more to chew on.
I do like the suggestion about the White Gates though, especially the idea of putting them back in when the enemies become aware of the party's presence. And the changes to the monsters sound good as well.
Once you clear out a section of every dangerous monster you can set up rests with a watch person so yes I totally agree not to cripple the dungeon for ease. We are talking about lvl 9 players, these guys are freaking tough and need to be challenged.
Absolutely. I was looking for advice concerning some inconsistent concepts in the adventure. Gatehouse is one of them. If the characters can easily access the Gatehouse from black gates, they could simply rest in peace (joke) without being disturbed. First thing for me is to change this.
But there are many other unlogic things, e.g. NPCs/monsters begging for glyph keys to flee the Doomvault. Whereto would they flee with a glyph key? Into the next zone? Etc.
And things have to be balanced carefully of course. So if you make monsters harder AND make it difficult to rest, the party really may end up Dead in Thay very soon.
Me and a few others are gonna be working together to create the entire dungeon in TaleSpire. It’s such a massive dungeon
This is a great video, and I can't wait to run this dungeon. Great advice on the tweaks to!
Great video, will definitely be taking pointers from it when I run this adventure come the time me and and my players sit down again at the table, come the end of lockdown.
I am about to run this dungeon as my first 5e. I've played D&D for at least 15 years from 78' to about 92' and we never liked it when there was no threat of dying so I may just keep the dungeon like it's set up but I think I will upgrade the multiple weak zombies and other fodder creatures into colossal zombies and similar. Thanks for the tips they have helped me out a ton.
Im actually looking forward to playing it as is.
Making it "easier" for the players isn't something that i believe is needed.
Very solid advice here! Thank you for making this video! Still very helpful in 2022 :)
Very helpful. Thanks for posting this and your suggestions. I’m looking to run this as a still newish DM. Can I ask 2 questions? First, do you print off the map or make a simpler version for the party? ( it is complex. Or does the party use the DM’s guidance to mentally picture the map). Secondly, I find all the books have so much/too much detail and complexity to easily/quickly soak up. Do you as DM know the campaign off pat or are you kind of familiar and using the guide to guide proceedings? I find I am always the DM. The others want to play but I have to do so much hard research to make it work that it can be kind of a drag. (I’m a dad trying to make it work for the family group and nit a DnD lover first and foremost!!). Thanks for taking time to read this (and reply!).
I want to talk about running a mega dungeon in an upcoming video I hope will answer these questions. But I find cutting complex content I can't explain and using a vtt or printed maps works great (not perfect, but better)
this is a great video. thanks!
good idea
im suprised you dont have at leat a million subs. ill share this account with my friends
hey can i ask a question. im looking through the module but it doesnt really explain very well how you traditionally get to the phylactery vault.
I was really nervous because i'm starting dead in thay later today for my players
@@NerdKingdom2018 Which starting point should I start at?
This looks like typical 5e bloat. You can picture the discussion at WotC HQ "What is better than a super powerful, deadly, evil Lich?" - DOZENS of super powerful, deadly, evil Liches of course! ....Yay
If you can't beat a lich, join them 😂