Something's Wrong With the Home Made Electric Dirt Bike Project - Part 7
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- Опубликовано: 17 сен 2022
- Today we are building a 72v 12,000w electric dirt bike! using a Kawasaki KX250 dirt bike frame. I am very excited about this project, and am excited to see what this electric dirt bike can do.
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It's the pole sync. Basically, the controller needs to be set to sync with the magnet position of the motor. That is universally true with any brushless system. The speed control is fine and the motor is fine. Just needs the correct settings. You need the exact properties for that motor
Yeah mostly you can runn calibration tools for that!
lets smash this like button, so he can see it...
Not the issues. His battery isn't putting out the amperage it needs and the controller and motor is requesting more than his battery can produce. I'm pretty sure his batteries are dead and he needs a full charge before.
@@Beardest_Fishing that could be true as well but I've never seen a speed control jitter from lack of amperage. Usually they shut down and/or give a series of beeps if the amp draw is too low but you could be right. I dont have much experience with this large of ESC
@@Beardest_Fishing i was looking at the guage on those wires. an xmaxx uses like twice the guage at least. i think ur right.
65V is near dead for a 72V battery. The controller will also have a low voltage cutoff setting. A fully charged 72V LiFeP04 will be closer to 80V. Charge your batteries before using them, gotta take care of your lithium batteries.
yeah dude, ur battery might actually be toast because you let it discharge too much
Right. The battery % indicator on the display has to be calibrated too, I’m sure, if he is going off of that.
72v battery fully charge is 84v
@@rickrandom716 not if lifepo
@@riccardo1796 87.6v if lifepo
That reverse switch looks pretty dangerous if you accidentally flip it while riding.
Indeed! Shirt snag's that thing (or worse yet your nut-sack) and BAM you are in a low earth orbit. DELETE IT or move to covered safe location.
I would go with a momentary switch that you have to hold down for reverse.
exactly what i was thinking
@@garrettstevens2232I've never seen a dirt bike need reverse. I'd just remove the switch.
The controller won't let you go in reverse unless you are stopped. I have the same controller.
You need to put a protective cover on the reverse switch before loose clothing or anything flips it while your moving.
It won't activate unless the motor is stopped, he's good
@@Todd_G_FPV Snagging while TRYING to let go of the bike would be a bummer. Handlebar switches all the way.
I had that same problem with a mid drive motor. I canged the pole angles in the motorcontroller software and it started working.
Make sense
Like a bafang system bbso2b or bbshd? How what setting?
Yes this is what I'm thinking as long as the hall sensors isn't bad but I just dropped a comment explaining how to test those which is pretty simple and probably the easiest thing to check, I also told him to make sure the angles is set correctly and to make sure the amount of poles in the controller settings matches the motor poles.
there should be a learn wire you connect to get it to self recognize the poles.
@@phille8176 he change where the motor see where engine is so it couldnt see before chnage setting it can see now and happy
A good rule of thumb for matching electronics is to overspec the battery for the controller, and overspec the controller for the motor. The motor is the most resilient part, then the controller, then battery is most sensitive. Also, check the BMS on the battery and what the amp cutoff is. If you are pulling more than the BMS will allow, it will cut out. Then you'll have to adjust the controller amp settings to just below that and reduce the acceleration rate so you don't hit peak amps so fast. It is a lot of just running the vehicle up and down the road to find the settings that work.
Yeah, charge the battery and check the settings :)
my guess is bms is set to like 100 amps cutoff thats 7200watts if its 72v system. he keets sayying 200amps. that 12000w motor is only good for 150amps.
@@SeptemberTwentyThird it would need more than 150A to run at 72V/12kW. 200A should be 14kW or less, sounds ok for a 12kW nominal motor
@@geemy9675 amp times volts = watts. If its a 72v controller/system then 72v would be the nominal voltage of the battery 80 volts fully charged 64v fully discharged. 80volts x 150amps = 12,000watts 64volts x150amps = 9600watts. I don't understand what you disagree with me on?
That means all he needs is something capable of handling 150amps continuous. Max output is irrelevant in bike motors. All that matter is max continuous output. witch in this case the motor is rated for 150amps.
You might be dropping the voltage of the battery below cutoff when hitting the throttle, it did it before you went to drive it @19:30. You could be losing voltage through a bad return connection to the motor. Maybe run a dedicated neutral wire from the hub bolt to the main return lug. Also using a passive voltage monitor with a voltage over time graph would make the troubleshooting easier. I love troubleshooting this stuff, good luck brother. We deal with these kind of shenanigans regularly in electronics. Its all part of the dopamine rush you get when its optimized.
It wouldn't be so violent if that was a cutout though
wtf would running a wire from the axle to the B- do? lol thats terrible advice
Tyler, could you please point me to any good and small passive voltage monitor I could buy? I'm building another electric dirt bike and your suggestion sounds very good for checking the voltage problems with low discharge rate batteries. Thanks.
There is no "neutral" on a 3-wire brushless motor.
The front brake hose on usd forks goes on the inside of the fork to protect it from damage - hope ya get it 'running' well, looks madness.
You did a great job considering this is your first outing on serious kits. You’ll get it and learn along the way.
The front brake hose is supposed to be routed on the INSIDE of the fork leg, not on the outside.
based on my experience working with motor wheels, I recommend tightening the halves of the dropout between themselves with a bolt, or putting a clamp on them. considering the power, I would advise you to make a bracket from a c-channel beam with tightening screws to select the halves of the dropout. the main idea is that the grooves on the motor shaft have as large a contact area as possible with the corresponding dropout surfaces and the dropouts should be maximally fixed against expansion.
Maybe if you have someone you know who owns the Delfast's TOP3 with a new dropout amplifier (it can be recognized by the 3 bolts sticking out of it), see how it is arranged on this bike. suitable as a starting point.
Heya so awesome for having a go at this level build ,lots of us been waiting for someone to take the lead especially with this motor the torque is just unbelievable ,cheers
10:50 - I'm seeing nothing but a very happy man right there.... I think he might have fallen in love at this exact moment, as did I when I played around w/ my first fast ebike before I rode it and got addicted. LoL
Edit: I think the slipping in the axle is causing the hall sensors to freak out and make that stuttering of the rear end... I found an Endless Sphere post about testing the hall sensors by disconnecting the phase wires and spinning the wheel and testing the phase wires for weird voltage to show that the hall sensors are working correctly. A few videos in and it says to check the continuity of the phase wires to make sure they're not broken.... Also check for moisture in the motor case, that can be helped by drying it out and putting Statorade inside the motor to help heat build-up and moisture.
Make sure your phase current wires are not loose in any way. Keep up the good work! I'm sure you will get this going soon!
I absolutely love your episodes! Great to see a longer one now as well. All of that electronics is a bit different from gas powered stuff, but fun to see something “different “
I have been involved in electric transport for a long time and I can say that there can be several reasons for this behavior of the motor. To a greater extent, I am inclined to believe that you have the wrong combination of connecting phases or hall sensors. You should not rely on the automatic detection of the controller, since not all controllers can correctly determine the phasing on the motors, especially on powerful motors with low winding resistance. If you understand what we are talking about, then you can first check the correct operation of the hall sensors, the circuit is simple, connect three diodes to the outputs of the halls and slowly turn the motor to watch, the diodes should light up alternately, but they should never burn all three or not burn all three, at 120 degrees they light up in a chain 1-2-1-2-1-2 shifting in phases. Next, you need to check the idle current of the motor, it should be small. And finally, download the connection table of combinations of phases and halls and check the correctness of the connection by enumerating all combinations. If you need help write how to contact you. Good luck in job.
The only problem with your testing method is that if diodes light up, they are about to catch fire.
@@csorrows ever heard of light emitting diode?
@@donniebunkerboi9975 Yes, but that is not what he/she said to use. You do realize a 'diode' is a real thing that does not produce light, right? Don't assume someone is talking about something different than what they said. It was clearly stated 'diode'.
@@csorrows I apologize that I do not know your language thoroughly, but the translator translated what you are reading, hence such a misunderstanding. I meant stetodiodes.
@@MsDarkThinker Shame on that poor translator. It's making up words now. I'm sure what you are referring to are light emitting diodes. I have never heard of a stetodiode. I did not realize you were using a translator. They create very confusing translations when I am trying to talk to some Russian friends. I feel your pain my friend.
I bet your neighbors partially approve of your electric projects. The sound is 180 degrees off what a 2-stroke belts out.
🤭😏I heard all is fine and dandy and they are constantly going out to lunch at wingstop
That neighbor sounds like the type of person who would complain that his new golden plates are too shiny...
I was thinking that too. That guy probably moved away a week before this build 🤭
If i know his type, and i know it, the dude doesn't even care about the noise. He's just tiny PP energy pissed off that someone else (younger) gets to do all the fun things he never could / can. Weak small PP energy is always the simplest explanation for that kind of behavior.
See you should never get your neighbours used to not hearing loud engines. After a while they'll go nuts if you pull an old toy out
A LOT of builders run the sensor wires and the motor phase wires together in a bundle to have a neater appearance. Common mistake. Inductance and the magnetic fields around the phase wires will affect the signals from the 5V hall sensors. Separate them as much as possible. A couple inches is usually all it takes...the three fat motor phase wires can be bundled, and the five skinny hall wires can be bundled a couple inches away.
Bypass the shunt
This is a good suggestion.
Been subbed since you had under 20k subscribers. Love the consistency and more and more complex projects. Keep it real brotha
18:18 If you crash or brake hard and get shoved up towards handlebars, those switched could damage the family jewels.. 😬 Something to think about! 👍
I really admired how clean it was for crashing, untill those stabby lil toggle switches went in 🤣
Still pretty good tho! Considering the usecase, its not like the plan is to jump it with that rear axle anyway
@@WileHeCoyote Yeah and if it does happen, it'll only once, and then RbW will certainly fix that problem. 🤣 Having metal switched jamming into the nut case will be a big motivator.
You don't think riding a 400amp AC motor will damage the jewels?
He should put fighter jet style switch covers over them
Typically, when you crash the front of a bike, the back wheel comes up, pushing the seat you are sitting on up and that tank area down. It would be very difficult to catch your nuts on those switches in a front end impact.
Lots of good suggestions here for an electronic fix, but try the mechanical first. Put your gopro on the rear swing arm to see if the wheel is torquing/twisting/bending spokes and hitting the swing arm. It could also be the magnets inside the wheel trying to lift out of their pockets under high load, they are often only glued in, it is Chinesium after all.
try changing the phase angle on the controller and as for the torque arm i used stainless steel for mine to stop the axle eating away at it good luck buddy looks great cant wait to see it finished
Front brake routing goes around the inside of the fork. We didn't wait decades for Hondas patent to run out to go around the outside.
At least the neighbors are happy with this project :)
From brushless rc experience when you set up an esc you have to teach it where full throttle is by holding it at full throttle then turning on the esc then cutting the throttle down to off, this will tell the esc what range the throttle has.
But as it has an auto tune I am not too sure, the other thing it might be is the 'c' rating of the battery packs.
C rating relates to how much current the batteries can burst too, if the C rating is not high enough then the batteries wont be able to deliver the amps the esc is calling for.
Are you sure the BMS boards are rated to pull the high amps the esc is needing?
Even if the bms is rated for it, his batteries may be cooked now or defective to start, and might not be capable of delivering full factory spec C ratings
I know that orange motor cable is well Insulated but if it were me I'd be putting even more protection on it just incase you catch it on anything. With that sorta current It pays to be careful!
You are a manufacturing genius!
Interesting build, thanks for sorting out all the unknown issues for the while builders. I had Send-Cut-Send water jet torque plates out of stainless, it was worth the money not to burn up drills and mill cutters.
Love your work but that switch will cause a castration during an accident. I am a biker and love motocross. I and everyone else have found out that the tank becomes a seat frequently. Be careful
..and he is far from a dirtbiker even.
Cant wait for that video.
You need to make sure regeneration is off because that chatter doesn't sound good! Keep at it and messing with it until you dial it in! Awesome job bro!
Very cool job !! Congrats, brother ! Watching from Brazil here.
Get a multimeter. Set it up for ohms. Disconnect all power sources. Check out the resistance of the throttle.
It only does it under mid to heavy acceleration. It does not do it at full speed under light acceleration. It's not the throttle.
when this is all done, you should go and paint match everything to the original colors of the bike, i think it would look so good
do you mean aluminum and green or the ghetto paint job?
Sounds like the controller is loosing track of the rotor position, usually they use Hall effect sensors or a sine/cosine encoder. If it doesn’t have those and it’s a sensorless then it might be loosing position causing it to do that weird jerking
Thats what i was thinking to
Sensors are only used at lower RPMs. Above that, it uses back EMF.
you are definitely a "mad scientist"! Great work, as usual!
what i like most about this whole build is that its actually full sized. all the E bikes are so small its like riding pitbikes
On the end of your swingarm where you slide the axle in, you need to drill holes in the end of it and put a tie link to hold the ends of the aluminum together. If you go back and look at the video, you can see the spaces are opened up and starting to separate, which is why you had the axle start to twist. Its not that the axle nuts were coming loose, its that the space was opening up and allowing the axle to slowly start to twist.
Must have torque arms on brushless motors!! Solid locking torque arms!!
I think it might be a good idea to put a kick stand switch linked to the brake switch so you can't move with the stand down
Unlike a running engine you can't tell if it's on or not. All it takes is some nipple head to twist the throttle while it's on the stand.
He will also want a larger pad on the bottom of the stand, that one will sink into anything softer than concrete... lol.
@@craig2963 just carry a coaster. No one wants a big ugly stand foot 😂
I have that cheap ebike tester. It does work and helped us immensely when we were playing with our little 500w e scoots years ago. Directions not the greatest but it is cheap and helpful.
At least you’re neighbors will be happy with no noise 😂
Weld those steel tabs to the axle shaft. Then cut the back of the aluminum mount off the end of the swing arm so the axle can slide in from the back. Finally, tap the swing arm from the side to accept bolts through the holes you have in your new axle tabs in front of the axle. The longer the tab the stronger it’ll be and a bolt in front and behind your axle would be ideal.
I agree with what this guy says. You can tap a thread to make it essentially like how the triple clamps work? Use grub screws
That is exactly what I was thinking, except instead of tapping the swingarm just using a through bolt and nut.
@@IGMWN agree a through bolt would be better. Figured he'd get there if needed. Didn't mention it because of potential clearance issues to the hub with a bolt sticking through. Probably just has to be careful.
You think welding steel tabs to a hardened axle shaft is smart? Is the axle available at home depot? Will you die when the axle snaps because you weakened the high carbon steel?
Make sure to put a really stiff spring on kickstand so it doesn't come down during a jump... Stay safe
Explain how a dropped kickstand could have a negative effect during the forward momentum of riding…
@@nunya7948 Because with upward force on the kickstand, it will not fold out of the way. It will only fold with no weight on it. The reason is because the kickstand angles a bit forward when down. So, if you landed with the kickstand down, you will have a bad time.
@@nunya7948 I said it can come down during a jump not just going forward... If you knew anything about dirt bikes you would know that's why they don't come with a kick stand
If it is only on acceleration and not on fix speed I think you can use supercapacitor to help with the peak current demand when you accelerate, but your work is awsome, big fan!
I am a builder myself. Thank you for sharing all...!
Congratulations for your achievements, we know why we are the people not getting lost on TV or arcade..
A good rule of thumb for sizing circuit protection is your load x 1.25 Your 300 amp might not be big enough, 260 continuous isn't it's max, it's just what it can do sustained, it can put out higher when starting out, it's called inrush current. That can be limited in your programming though.
Battery voltage doesn't go down to zero. It's a range, a 72V battery is actually full at around 75V and dead at 60 something volts depending on what cells are in it.
No, a 20s 72v li ion battery is 84v fully charged. If we're talking about LiFePo4 then a 20s is 72v max. I only discharge mine to 60v which is 3v per cell. There's not much power left in them under 3v and discharging them below that cuts severely into their cycle life.
@@timothyliberty8052 Yeah I hadn't done the math and don't know the configuration of his battery pack, I just threw out numbers for purposes of understanding that you won't ever drain the battery to "zero" and at a full charge it will read higher.
I would say it is probably the controlleror sensor. Seems like it is losing what position the motor is in . Don't know if that motor and controller is sensorless or not. But that might be your problem. Bldc motors need to know the position of the rotor at all times. Check your wiring.
Electronic speed controllers also have a timing setting, if it was cogging from 0 rpm, then maybe wiring.
But cogging when accelerating is more indicative of timing issue, the speed controller timing default may be set for maximum efficiency running smaller motors with less poles
@@Username-qx9gk yep
Your patience is very admirable sir
GRIN TECHNOLOGIES is king at these types of problems
Probably a voltage cut in the esc. In high rpms you pull alot of amperage so voltage may drop. Check your settings on what type of battery its programmed for
Came to say essentially the same thing. Under load the motor is going to pull alot of amps. If it's pulling to much like you said it will hit voltage cut.
I thought the wiring on the battery cutout switch looked way too small and that would make an additional voltage drop also. Adding in an instant voltage drop directly proportional with motor armature draw. Motors suck huge amperage’s under load! If that switch Is in series with the battery, that is or will be a problem.
Scrap that idea and build a tube swing arm something that isn’t so soft and can hold the axle in place or add bolt stops like a standard swing arm even though there used for chain adjustment but I’d assume they would help hold the axle in place better.
Check your pole pairs in the settings for that QS motor should be at 16 pole pairs.
Plus check if your field weakening is on if it's on turn it off and test.
Good luck with this: Really hope you get it sorted - it does sound like a phasing issue. Just a couple of observations on other bits. My Dirt Bikes Rear axel torque is 142Nm - you really need a socket on that and get it REAL tight once aligned. Also, for maintaining the prospect of having kids in the future, you might want to replace those toggle switches with low profile push to latch switches so you don't rip your left bollock off if you go over the top!
Is there a setting for the regenerative breaking maybe that could have something to do with the chattering
Having the reverse switch where it is might not be the best idea... If you accidentally hit it while going forward it's not gonna end well... Stay safe
cant wait to run 5kw w the far dirver setup on my little razor mx650 build. Keep it up brother this thing is insane!!
You did an amazing job!!!!!
the battery is all wrong , check the low voltage cutoff on the controller settings . odds are its set to 60v or higher, as you draw from the battery voltage sag occurs , hitting the controller Lvc. You need a battery capable of 1000a discharge to run a 600a controller. This WILL SOLVE the cogging issue also.
as an aside the BMS may be cutting out , to protect the battery.. again , the battery is all wrong .
@@airgunningyup you think it has BMS? There are no individual wires per cell as BMS typically has.
@@tujuprojects it's under the blue shrink wrap of the battery, only positive and negative cables are exposed
@@tujuprojects it should , it doesnt have an external loom for balancing
@@WileHeCoyote The BMS? It would be visible if so.
Is it just me or did anyone else find his constant reving it and the back tyre hitting the floor grip their shit....?
constant reving on discharged batteries
Your quality non vulgar content is supreme amigo!
Dude I'm gutted for you, I feel ur pain, I really wana see that bike fly, don't give up
Titanium plates and axle my dude. I can't imagine the torque that axle has to endure, if there is ~any~ slop it will confuse the controller because it'll think the wheel is moving faster or slower than it should, so it compensates.
Check the speed controllers motor timing. Too much leads to jerking and motor heating. If there is decree numbers, start with 10decree.
Also charge the battery, it should indicate clearly for low voltage cutoff.
Put the front brake line on the other side of the fork so you don't rip it off if you have a get off, super badass keep up the good work!!!
This dude is awesome .
Have you tried the regenerative breaking ?
Maybe disabling that will fix the issue.
regen also chews up dropouts real quick
If it's too strong it can spin the axle fairly easily, definitely a concern now that the axle has already begun to round out
"This thing" counter: 539
this is the best electric bike ive seen holy crap
You are a brave man testing wiring with that current capacity on a conductive workbench! That can be a quick way to make an impromptu arc welder...
looks like the BMS is limiting the current output from the battery. You can get a battery designed for higher current or add a capacitor bank in parallel between the battery and the ESC
you can always drill a few holes by the spring side of the frame and have a fan that's always pushing air out of the case\frame
Good luck. I don't know crap about these yet. So this is my first go around too
Could just be a throttle tuning issue but testing with an almost flat battery is no good great project as always 👍
Super cool much much cooler bro 👍🔋✅😎 now that it's all the pieces are put together on the dirt bike runs better sound so much good job keep up the good work 👍😎 keep tinkering with tools 👍😎
3:38 listen when he flicks the switch, something in the background turned off at the same time. That was good timing.
Seems like what hsppening is the plus from the controler is getting ahead or behind the magnets which is trying to turn the wheel backwards until the rpms slows enough to put it back in sync. Hence the the jerking or antilock brake effect. Im an electronic hobbiest so i have not played with controllers like this but i would look at phase angle settings or as others have said shielding the hall effect wiring.
Heya, watching ya from NZ. Bike looks great, love ya work!
If you do not have a big enoug flat spot you can still use water blocks to connect to the frame and mount the controller wherever you want.
t's the pole sync. Basically, the controller needs to be set to sync with the magnet position of the motor. That is universally true with any brushless system. The speed control is fine and the motor is fine. Just needs the correct settings. You need the exact properties for that motor
I know for sure that's a controller setting. I remember we plugged the controller to the PC and did something with the phase. His scooter also worn the axle out.. at one point it actually ripped the motor cables. I ended up resoldering them to the motor. there's were we realized the motor comes with 2 sets of Hall sensors. Those motors are pretty good
All I can say is, I’m glad it’s you that’s working on that ebike and not me. I would’ve pulled my hair by now. 🤣🤣
My favorite journeyman. I’m in WNC too
Fantástico seu trabalho!!! Muito bom. Quero uma moto igual. Parabéns
I just want to say, I love your EV building content.
This is a real high power! I opened this video and was very frightened by the sound)
I think hall effect sensor reading may be distorted by strong alternating electromagnetic field in the main cable, maybe shielding hall sensor would help?
Drill and tap the rear of the swing arm to clamp down on the axle to help with the axle twisting.
do not give up, you will succeed, the bike turned out Greetings from Russia
using a breaker and switch is the best way to do it, I blew up a few blocks on my mini kelly controller which is why i got the far driver setup and a qs165.
I deal with variable speed fan motors for a/c which is essentially a smaller version of the motor you have and when mine start acting like yours is it’s the module (or in your case the controller)that causes it to stutter like that. If you think it’s the bms on the battery shutting off just stick your meter leads in the battery terminals and check voltage while you ride it
This is why I much prefer mid-drives to hub motors, mid-drives you only have your chain to worry about but hubs it’s endless things can go wrong, I hate having all that power at rear of bike as u get a slight issue metal starts peeling lol, I find mid-drives much more sturdy and hassle pain free, a good solid motor bike chain on a mid-drive u good to go.
Well, at least the grumpy old neighbor can't complain about an electric bike being too loud.
Speaking of which, another electric project could be another buggy. But using an ME1616. It's a watercooler motor, 96 volts DC, 88ft/lbs of torque (without gear reduction), 6000 max rpm, up to 73hp (20kW to 55kW). It seems to scoot a crosskart pretty well.
IM Really Really Impressed by the fact that it needs so "few" Parts to Work even my 99' LC4 needs alot more chanenigans holy cow..... im really IMpressed.
Great project! Might need to heat treat those axle brackets if the thicker ones wear out. How is the hall sensor routed? Shielded?? Could have interference?
Hey mate, thought i should point out that you'll need to install steering stops on your chassis. they physically limit the amount of handle bar turning radius so when in a crash the triple clamps/fork assembly stops before making contact with the chassis. also i believe the squeaking sound is coming from the rear shock as the old mate before you who did that ghetto paint job didn't cover the chrome shaft, that will destroy the main dust/oil seals. pretty easy to remove the rear spring and remove the paint with some paint stripper. sick videos, refreshing seeing someone actually thinking outside of the box when it comes to a bike build.
I would get that same chattering issue on my brushless RC's. The problem was usually a bad connection between the motor and the ESC. The symptoms your bike is showing are reminding me of that problem I ran into with the RC's. Also, I would get chattering if I hooked up the motor wires incorrectly.
Good job powerful😎💪
I used to forward remote control helicopter a lot and have come across this issue in the past with brushless motors. Loose magnets was almost always the cause. Just figured I would throw that out there for you.
Does the controller application give you an option to calibrate the throttle? Almost makes me think the throttle is going out of range. Also is this happening with the pack being full?
All of the NEV'S I've worked on had Curtis controllers, which could blink out trouble codes. Check your manual to see if that's an option. Also you can try disabling the regen. Good luck!
Exelente proyecto amigo saludos desde Chetumal QuintanaRoo MEXICO a de funcionar muy bien