Does the Weapon, packaging or something else with an autograph of Ian Mccollum? :D (not that I can enter, I am living in the worng part of the world for that :( )
Having spent ten years on active duty in the Army, I can tell you, with absolutely no worries of being wrong, that, while modularity/fit the grip to the user is a nice idea, anyone who goes to their unit armorer - unless they happen to outrank him - and says, "I want a different grip module for my gun," is going to be told, "Shut the fuck up and move out."
The true “Forgotten Weapon” is the predecessor to this series of pistols, the SIG P250. It was a hammer type DA only using a similar fire control group. Available in subcompact, compact, and full size, with three grips for each size in small, medium, and large. It was available in all the different sizes in 9mm, .40 S&W, .357SIG, and .45ACP. After the initial purchase from your FFL you could order different size and caliber “kits” direct from SIG. The .22lr was only sold as a complete pistol.
Always did find those kinda interesting. As far as I can recall, they were barely adopted by anybody except the Hong Kong police, and I believe that was mostly just the Triad investigation unit.
"What kind of idiot is going to leave the gun loaded and pull the trigger when they go to disassemble it" - clearly these people have not met soldiers.
For all the perception people have of the military, not all are trigger pullers, and even less train with pistols or even issued to trigger pullers. Field grades, First Sergeants and above, aviation units, and even tank commanders are issue pistols, but how of them actually practice with pistols? I was taught the stupid tea cup method and shot the M9 only a handful of times. It wasn't till I got out the military did I really started to understand firearms including pistols.
Yeah, usually the army just orders custom variants of existing arms and gets a discount on manufacturing. Unless you're a sniper or special forces the army doesn't trust you to modify your own weapon
It's not that the modularity would be used by those who would be in combat. I don't know what kind of military logistics you worked, but take a look at the M16 and AR carbines. It's a prime example of modularity being used, especially the AR carbines of the past.
Feel like the real reason it needed to be modular was so that if the polymer frame got ludicrously damaged they can replace it - that being about the extent of it. (Now what that threshold would justify replacement, given military standards, is another matter…)
I was in the British army when we were still using the Browning hi-power, there were quite a few stories of guys stripping them down, reassembling them and when doing a function check, because of the magazine disconnect, putting the mag in before dropping the slide and firing off a round. I can understand the requirement to be able to remove the slide without pulling the trigger.
My son is in the USMC in the infantry and he inherited my late father's M18 last year. I didn't want to like it with the strange trigger, but in use it was fantastic to shoot in practice. Comfortable like driving a luxury car and super accurate. I was amazed. But I really wanted my son to get the edge when he was on leave for a possible pistol qual and a few weeks ago he earned expert while deployed. We appreciate marksmanship in my family too so we're super proud of this.
I have one with a Wilson Combat module too. I swapped it out for a P80 one. The texture on the P80 is better in my opinion . I bought the OD green , and it looks sick with the tan slide .
After many many hours of watching Ian's videos, I would like to say Thank you! These videos are not easy to make ans most get demonetized. I bought the mug with Ian's mug. I am happy to support the channel. Thank you and I hope you keep making these videos!
Fun Fact™: It does not matter how many grip sizes are available. The Sergeant Major is going to say *_"ONE_* is all you need, this *_AIN'T_* Burger King where you have it *_YOUR_* way!" Never underestimate the ability of a Senior NCO to meddle in a decision-making process where he *_DOES NOT BELONG_*
"What kind of idiot unloads the gun with a round in the chamber?" An 18-year-old who's been in combat/training for 20+ hours with little prior experience with weapons.
Yep. Folks who don't understand or appreciate the effect of fatigue and stress and maybe don't always work under the nicest LED lighting. Plus, simply. That it may be an 18yoa E-1 from Newark taking the handgun apart and he's scared to death of it anyway.
I agree. I've seen "experienced" officers and senior NCOs have NDs because they thought that they had cleared their weapons. Add in fatigue and/or inexperience, and you have a recipe for it to happen.
It's not just some 18 year old, E-1. Not to cast dispersion against my Polish Brother in Arms, but one of their officers discharged a round (luckily into the clearing barrel) before entering our TOC years ago when I was in Iraq. It just so happened a few weeks prior, one of our guys came off of guard duty as they arrived, shaking his head and asking out loud "Have you ever seen their officers clear a pistol? It's a s-show."
I was a Combat Marksmanship Trainer at Camp Lejeune at the end of my enlistment and was an instructor for Coaches Course, and we were part of the rollout of the M18 at Lejeune which was a really cool experience. One standout issue we had with them was that the single torque screw wasn't good enough to hold the rear sight in place so I had one student firing and suddenly the optics plate and rear sight went flying. According to the armorer we brought over to inspect it wasn't an isolated issue either. Otherwise, from the Marines we taught on the M18 is was received extremely favorably and I certainly preferred it over the M9.
Sounds like they just need to ditch the rear sight and fit them all with optics from the get go. Haven't gotten to play with one yet beyond just cleaning but overall I like the feel a lot better than the m9. Also I have tiny hands.
That brings back a core memory of my range duty in the British Army. A new qual was firing his Browning (just a few months before the full rollout of the Glock as the new standard sidearm), I walking the line and heard a metallic 'Ping' instantaneously followed with a 'Fu**ing hell Staff Sgt!' Slide failed and smacked him in the face. No injury, but did give him and me a laugh at unintentional firearm dismantling at high speed!
At the time, I didn't think MHS was a big failure. But now, I really think we should've just selected the glock. A more known quantity does not exist. Sig (mostly due to their president randomly making people delete features AHEM safety features) makes a bunch of rolling changes, has a bunch of random problems on basically any particular 320. They're fine pistols but there's just so much random stuff to worry about. I can't trust any particular 320 I haven't used before. They have several different skus for things that you would think would be universal to all 320s of a given configuration... there's a bunch of tiny differences. It's literally like WW2 German manufacturing. INFINITE ROLLING CHANGES ALL THE TIME
@@mikeschotte9480 Coaches Course POI didn't involve M45A1s when I was an instructor, when I went through Combat Marksmanship Trainer's Course we did pull some competition-spec Caspian M1911s (Don't remember the manufacturer) from the armory for basic familiarization though we didn't get to shoot those. The POI for CMT course actually included a class on basic disassembly and familiarity with every individual small arm in the USMC to include M4/M16A4/M27, M1014, M500, M18, M9, various Glocks (Didn't have any on hand though since those were basically CID-only), and M45A1s (We used the Caspian M1911s as a stand-in since we didn't retain M45s but did have the Caspians for competition shooting at WTBN).
Fun fact, I was the lead instructor in the Marine Corps on this pistol for a while. Quantico never gave out any training guidance for our marksmanship instruction. I had to use my own prior knowledge and help from Sig experts in order to create proper class material for it. Another fun fact, we got the wrong sight package for them. So we didn't get the intended #8 front and #8 rear sight. Instead of "building the castle" and lining up a normal combat sight picture, aligning the tops of the front and rear sights, you had to "build the pyramid." You had to bisect the dot on the front sight with the top of the rear sight or you'd be hitting the pelvis when aiming at the head at 25 yards. We also cheaped out on our order when it came to glue for the screw on the rear sight. The regularly flew off in the middle of live fire training because the Marine Corps was too cheap to pay for the actual Loctite that was intended to hold the screws in place. I absolutely love this pistol.
USMC 01-06 here, now Army National Guard, got to try the new sig's out a couple years back. Our sights are wrong as well. But that can and was fixed with training.
Thank you for shedding light on the rear sight Loctite situation. Most people here are the first to blame SIG for everything from their stomach ache to their car breaking down.
I had several M17 rear sights far off despite the fact they when from the arms room to the sponson box and then back to the arms room after a 2 week FTX. The rear sights falling off is concerning to me, because if they are to lazy to do that right what else did they screw up?
The first original M18s issued also had tan controls (very few units got these) but were replaced within a couple of months for the newer ones that had the black controls. Good guns overall, the marksmanship scores went up as well as the smaller framed soldiers didn’t have to deal with the double action trigger for the first shot on the M9s and M11s (sig 228, West German made). The optics plates with the screws attaching it at the bottom were the only issue I know of.
I agree that they’re good guns, but in my own personal experiences marksmanship scores went down. The pistol is noticeably snappier in recoil compared to the old school Beretta M9. The magazines are considerably better on the new sig models though. My unit ran pistols hard and a majority would’ve appreciated updated berettas or glocks over M17s, but opinions of soldiers don’t mean much anyways and the grass is always greener on the other side.
@@eNoble-US that’s the difference, I was talking about the M18s which are better balanced than the M17s. I don’t know why, but I had a difficult time grouping with the M17 vs the M18 was very easy and it had a nicer recoil impulse than the M17. It defies logic as the longer sight radius and longer barrel would in most cases be better, but I think the balance was so off it created more issues. Plus it depends on which shooting quals you are doing and how strictly enforced some of them are. The M18 definitely helped in the one handed shooting tables and not having to deal with the first double action trigger pull at the beginning of each table (which was enforced) aided in more hits on target, especially when timed. Now I will say when the legacy pistols, either the M11 or the M9 when in SA, they were nicer to shoot. And I do believe the berettas are better shooting guns once a better and lighter trigger system is installed, but you would never see that in the military.
"What kind of idiot?". It happened in the parking lot where I work a couple years ago. An employee was showing another employee his Glock and wanted to take it apart to show him the aftermarket upgrades he had made. He didn't clear it properly and when he pulled the trigger (a required step in taking apart a Glock) he put a bullet in his leg. Interestingly I work at an internet retailer that sells, among other things, firearms.
@@speedythree That's what I said, I don't remember the whole adoption period, but it was alot longer than Ian mentioned for the American military. Our HiPowers were so bad, a bunch were kept around to rob parts from to keep the "main" ones in the field!
@@bobhill3941 I remember firing them back when I joined the Reserves, back in 1977! And they were roughly 30 years old back then! Our adoption process had a few hiccups in it; it began in 2011, had to be restarted in 2016 and then again in 2020! Third time is indeed the charm.
@@speedythree I remember in 2011 reading in the paper on my lunch break at work when these were being surplussed. Dad and I talked about how cool it would be if we both had one.
Yeah I've seen them come off but usually because they weren't torqued to spec. They don't just yeet off the gun because you fired it. Like most things with guns usually the user did something and didn't put it together right. Otherwise I would have seen them come off one of the 3 I own with the plate rear sight still on. All over 3 to 5k rounds sight isn't even loose
@@unclefreedom213 all of the ones in out Armory are straight from sig. We don’t use red dots on them so we have never had the need to remove the sight. I understand why sig wouldn’t use thread locker on them in the factory, but they come off regardless on military ones. Maybe they stepped their game up with the civilian ones.
My theory has been that the military will issue a grip module of the appropriate size to each soldier with their TA-50. This, then makes it incumbent on the soldier to replace it if it gets damaged, but could also make it viable for the solider to make authorized changes in order for the pistol to better fit them if needed.
Most soldiers and Marines won't carry the pistol, it's typically issued to officers, medical personnel and senior NCO's. I still am responsible for gear I was issued in the early 2000s right before molle came out. Such as an Alice Pack, the old style sleeping gear, etc. I like how you're thinking, but I really don't want any more gear to store.
This won't happen because it would have to come from the armory. Thusly having to be turned back into the armory when changing duty station. At that rate the armorer may as well do it when it's issued.
Actually would be pretty dope to have a series about military tries. So which guns were send in and which one was finally chosen with which "rationality"/"reasoning". You sprinkle in these details often on individual weapons, but often I'm missing the context to understand this fully.
I was attached to the 101 during Operation Desert Storm. Unfortunately I was injured and sent home. I missed being there for my men. I was their Ssgt their leader. Thank God all of them came home alive. I also was a cop in the USAF for 9 1/2 yrs. We carried the .38 & 92f Berreta.
I just bought this on Wednesday. Was interested to see what your thoughts were. You sir are a wealth of knowledge. Thank you for all the years of stellar content.
I keep an m18 in my car all the time. It was the first pistol i shot with a red dot and im just comfortable with it. I carry a 365xl with a romeo zero and it takes more focus to shoot accurately.
(@7:39) Ian was comparing the M17 & M18 pistols: I think he meant to say, “so you won’t see any non-black ones” (M18’s), rather than “so you won’t see any black ones.”
I suggest you show the reverse procedure of putting the pistol back together. If you get the barrel spring in the wrong vertical vs horizontal position it the slide will not go on correctly, and pushes out the forward part of the pistol spring, causing it to not lock.
RIP M45A1/1911. I’m sure it will still be used in very small numbers, but I can’t help but be saddened over that workhorse being retired. I understand it though. I’m not even a 1911 carrier. I love my P320 and my P220 pistols.
@@WALTERBROADDUSI thought that too but I actually saw photos of Marines training with it even just a few years ago, so evidently they still have some in service. Even talked to a gunsmith who was a former Marine that confirmed there were still 1911s there. How often they’ve actually been issued in the field, not sure, but that is impressive staying power for a 100+ year old design. lol Wonder how well the various double stack 1911 upgrades would do now.
Great vid, Ian! My son is purchasing the civilian version, so I had the chance to check it in person. Gotta say, awesome gun. Simple and intelligently laid out.
Not really, HK make far more durable and better performing pistols than Sig and have the history to prove it.......and HK don't shoot on their own like the P320 do.
@@H4FF width and girth of the grip makes it easier/more difficult to conceal with different seasonal clothing. A grip for a 17 round pistol make disappear under a winter coat, not so much under a white t shirt. The smaller 10+1 round 365 (my assumption on capacity) can disappear in summer clothes in a way the p320/m18 just can’t. Printing (being able to see that you have a gun under your clothes) is not proper CCW etiquette and is often illegal.
@ClassWarDesirer Ohh right, interesting! Especially also the legislation aspect - seems somewhat counterintuitive, when you know concealed carry is allowed but you're not supposed to be able to tell.
@@H4FF yeah well cops need something to do and people love to be scared of bumps in waistbands. Printing reports likely get some number of people killed yearly by cops who get scared approaching a dude at the wholesale club
After watching too much Forgotten Weapons, I don't consider it a REAL military service pistol unless it's issued with a holster that attaches as a stock.
I just left the 101st a half year ago and was there when we received the m17. We received two holster types. One for light and laser the other a pretty decent kydex double retention holster. It came with two magazines per unit. No one in my battalion used the light and laser because the Recon, AMU and 5th group guys always preach pistol is to get to your rifle. For my brigade team leader and above, 240 gunners and mortar men all carried or could carry the M17. It is a part of the training quals consistently for mortars and 240 Gunner's. Also the holster was extremely modular as far as using a drop leg harness or not. I know guys who came from SFAB to us prefer to carry it on their belt and not the leg holster. I'm guessing for conceal ability for KLE's.
I had the opportunity to fire one at a range in North Carolina (P320). A really accurate, crisp pistol in my opinion. I really liked it in comparison to the older 226/229 type Sigs. I found it naturally accurate for my grip and it manages recoil really well. Probably the best of the bunch in procurement. I know the drop issues happened etc but I really can’t fault it and didn’t drop it so cannot comment!
Probably not the first to post this, M18 was adopted for protective services detail(MP), Criminal Investigative Division (CID, also MP). and Counterintelligence agents (Military intelligence). The Standard MP, Department of Army (DA) Guard and DA Police sidearm is the M17. M18 is also used as a general officers pistol (I am sure unless they secure another through different means) and I am sure there are a few more plain clothes organizations using them around.
MA1 on my ship had hands in the 99th %tile. Too big for the M9 (original grip) during qualifying shoots he would always get gouges out of his hand from the slide. My job as the Range Corpsman included cleaning blood off his gun after he shot and bandaging his hand .
@@OspreyKnight I'm sure he's retired now. This was 2005. So unless he went Mustang or master chief he'd be at least 28 years of active duty and forced to retire Back then we probably could have gotten him Mec Gar 20 rd magazines and some sort of Hogue overmolded grips. I think he was just trying to get permission to carry a S&W 686 on duty instead of an M9 There were a few rare incidents of people with abnormally large or small hands just being issued non-standard side arms. For a while women were given 1911s because the Beretta grip was too chonky
The M9s for our pistol quals had many tens of thousands of rounds fired through them. You could wiggle them back and forth and the slide would clack clack like a musical instrument. The trick was to tilt them left or right so the sight was consistently against the barrel one way or the other, see where it hit consistently, then put a black pasty (sticker) on the target to aim at. If it shot low right you put the pasty high left. If you are consistent you could be shooting bullseyes no matter how misaligned it was. The M17/18 will be just as worn out in 20 years....probably.
@@machinemaker2248 the tier one concealed axis elite. Im really skinny but it still conceals amazingly and it suprises everyone. I carry at work and all and none of my co workers have even noticed a print or atleast not enough to tell im carrying
I cannot imagine a scenario in which any of the "modularity" is actually used to fit someone's hand. Anybody saying they want to use a different polymer frame in the Army will be told to get bent.
In my unit at least, we got spare frames along with the M17s, and you can ask for one of the frames at the arms room. Not something a lot of people care about, but it's available.
Oh, like those of us that swapped parts on our own for the M9? Recoil spring/rod and grip panels were the first most of our unit swapped before we went to Iraq. I would be buying and using a Wilson Combat grip module for my M17/M18 now if I was still in. Same as I did with the M18 I carry daily now.
I just got one and took it to the range and it’s ok, I prefer my CZ SP01 but I’m a metal frame guy. I do plan to swap the slide and grip out and mount a red dot to it and hopefully that changes my opinion on it
I like carrying the M18 much more but as an armorer it’s been a bitch to deal with. The slide release bent into the frame on a handful and would render them useless because the slide wouldn’t be able to move properly. The sights also came loose here and there.
What drives the military's decision to adopt both of these pistols? The difference in barrel length is less than 1". Wouldn't it be cheaper and simpler to supply everyone in the military with the compact version?
Looks like the ones you have the finish is coming off the slide, also... I hope they have a better finish on the ones that actually went to the military cuz they're definitely going to be a LOT harder on them than I was. I love everything about my M17 except the slide finish. I'm either going to complain to Sig and see if they'll do anything about it and if not, I'll probably Cerakote it!!! My P365XL isn't having any problems with it's finish. Why couldn't they have used the same on the M17/18???
A great very interesting video and pistols GJ.Have a good one. Can you believe that once Zastava Kragujevac was on the brink of winning the pistol contract for the US Army against the competition of such as the Beretta and SIG?Can you compare somehow the modern pistols of these companies?
Got my M18 a few months ago used. Went to the range and tested her out a few days after and loved every second. Zero malfunctions, smooth trigger and pretty good accuracy at 50yds. Love my P320 and look forward to every trip to the range with her. Now I’ll wait for the Sig haters to flood this comment 🤣
They launched the joint combat pistol program initially in 2005 but kept changing parameters and relaunching until the branches reached consensus with these so not really such a fast process.
I have big palm but short fingers. My m9a1 I hated. I put skinny aluminum side grips on and it helped but still can't shoot it straight. My 1911s just fits soo well in my hand I can shoot very effective. I feel if I were under combat stress I would do better with a 1911 even with less capacity
I'm looking to get an M18 as a CCW pistol. You talked about how it's a bit big for such an application and I agree, but a 1911 is really long and heavy, with a low round count. And given how this video talks about +P 9mm ammo being made for it, I'm not worried about pen issues. I chose the P320/M18 due to the shorter slide/barrel, thus significantly reducing any chance of the slide/barrel being push up when I'm sitting in my car. The M1911 would have a big problem doing that. Also, less barrel flip/rise when fired. Thank you so much for such an informative video, especially the ammo part as I didn't know the gun had specialized ammo for it. 🙂👍
I retired from the Marines in 2014 and at the time there was no talk of replacing the service pistol. I stumbled upon this video, so the news of not only the Marines, but the other services finally moving away from the Beretta M9 stands out.
I remember the M9 fitting like a glove in my hand. Though my palm size is small, my fingers are very long. It's very difficult to find a proper glove size, and when choosing a CCW, I genuinely can't use anything smaller than a compact because my fingers get in the way of a proper grip. I have oversized grips on my taurus public defender poly and they are just slightly too big palm size, but I have plenty of grip due to my fingers. Sucks for shooting but makes playing guitar pretty easy lol
Big fan of *some* of Sig’s products. I own two P320’s and I honestly regret buying them (and spending money on pointless mods). Would have been better off putting that money into a P226 Elite and more ammo.
They messed up with the 320 line. The bore axis is terrible just because they borrowed their 250 hammer fired frame. Having owned a 19x & a 320, there is absolutely no way the 320 won on merit, it had to be standard shenanigans.
The bore axis issue is more a theoretical than a practical issue. Grip shape and contours matter more - I find my M18 to be less flippy than my Glock 19, entirely due to the grip frame allowing me to get a better handle on the gun.
@@geodkyt Don't forget the Beretta 92 has the same BA as a P320 or a P226. The 1911 even has a BA very very close to the M9 or P320/P226. Yet no one complains about shooting a B92 or a 1911. Just shows you how full of s*** people are.
@@noturfather1106 Then that is physics, heavier guns dampen recoil more. Nothing relating to BA. The M9 and P226 are both aluminum framed with basically the same BA. Yet people say "only" the P226 has a high BA and is not shootable. this is getting ridiculous.
I’m currently deployed with an expeditionary security unit and we still have M9s and so did the ship I was attached to. It was annoying to see base security everywhere have M17s when we don’t and our training requirements are much higher. At least the M9s we had were in pretty good shape.
@@jonnytestnj2668 yeah, it's hilarious when I'm standing watch and I see the base security guy pull up with his M17 and I'm standing there with my M9 lmao
@@rn9173 The military may end up with similar regulations, but for different reasons. For example, they may decide not to have every single grip mod available in order to save money. Or to ensure troops can still be combat effective with stock configuration firearms.
It's as simple as asking the company armorer on to put on the large or small grip for you. Takes him 15 seconds. Source: I was a company armorer for a couple years and changed out a few grip modules for people.
Its not your gun, its the military's gun. Additionally most people don't know they can ask for things to be modified. Furthermore some commanders are major fuckups and put blanket prohibitions on modificaitons... even with the m17... Its the same bullshit as issuing us gloves and a jacket with a hood and then forbidding us from wearing them.
Not in the military, but I picked one of these up at a gun show a year or two ago. Went from just another gun I own to my edc. It shots great and the red dot cutout is a great addition. Plus wilson combat grip and it's overall a great gun!
I love the guns, and they are very easy to carry concealed. From AIWB, I’m consistently .25 of a second faster with my M18 over my M17… from concealed AIWB, hands off the cover garment, draw and fire one shot on an 8 in target at 7 yds. in less than 2 seconds - the time is for newer shooters to get down to, then press on to ~1.25 or have multiple hits in sub 2 seconds or hit multiple targets in sub 2 seconds.
I bought a M18 frame but found it too big in clothes. Just a little fat, but it might be just personal opinion. Mine quickly found its replacement in a SIG P365 it’s not like I went much different. However, I did find the P320 is a fantastic holster gun.
@@SSgtCalebP Well you definitely have two great handguns. What to carry and how is definitely personal choice, preference etc. When I buy clothes, I’m carrying my EDC gear (at the time) while trying on clothes. Most often, my shirts and pants/shorts are a size larger to facilitate comfort and concealment for my AIWB preference. This is how I’m able to conceal my EDC XTEN for the last 10 or so months without issues. M18 before that… Tip, I’ve found button downs to be faster (than t-shirts, polos type shirts etc.) in that the support hand does a beer can type grip on the button line and rips upwards exposing the gun while the other hand is moving to grab the pistol’s grip. I’m about a .25 of a second faster w the M18 over the longer M17/XTEN. However, I struggle with shorter grips like the P365/Glock 19 etc.
I was a USMC 2011, i.e. Armorer. This "modularity" sounds like an excellent idea, but will be a total PITA in execution. No way in h*ll are grip modules going to be allowed to be "unregulated." Common sense goes out the window, the moment regulations are being written.
Thank you for the video. Only one small thing - it is not a QR code on the components of the pistol. QR codes are not used on any weapon parts for identification, it is a Data matrix.
@@thenegociater3387 The basic visual difference between QR and DM is that DM does not have the squares in the corners, it has the "L" shape line. From technical point of view DM can be applied in much smaller sizes then QR (higher "information density"), should be more secure and readable (can be applied with very little contrast). It only holds the part identificator, so there is no need for a huge amount of data or special characters. It is also mandatory in some standards and some institutions take it as a mandatory identificator since it's an industrial standard, QR is not. I do not remember much other details... it's been a while since I studied this.
The only Marines authorized in the entirety of the corps to conceal carry are Security Forces Marines who are assigned to PSD (Presidential Security Detail). The M007 was theirs, not special forces
@@newdefsys Part of the 320's problem is the girth. I agree handle length is one of the primary factors of concealability but the width cannot be ignored, especially on the parts above the beltline.
I'm wondering, considering they are restricted to fmj bullets, if it was worth using the higher pressure 9mm rounds? You get more recoil and shorter service life, but I'm not sure the terminal performance is much improved. If they were carrying expanding rounds, then I could see it. Maybe I'm wrong and there is some noticeable difference?
1. They do issue expanding ammo for situations where even Hague signatories aren't restricted (and while the US isn't a Hague signatory WRT to expanding ammo, we do voluntarily comply). For instance, the Hague Conventions *only* apply in international wars where *all* combatants in a particular theater are either Hague signatories or formally agree to abide by them for *that* theater, *and* everyone is actually complying. Anything else (such as combat involving non-state actors like terrorists, or a war where a single participant isn't a Hague nation - even temporarily), the FMJ restriction doesn't apply. 2. Hague doesn't apply where the purpose of using "non-Hague" ammo is for legitimate mikitary purposes other than increasing wound channels. Such as when used to limit collateral damage in built up areas by limiting penetration. 3. Most rounds fired by these pistols will be in "non-Hague" environments anyway, such as MPs standing guard outside combat zones. Thus, the majority of Real World use will be the "non-Hague" ammo... so it would be nice if the pistols were designed for a steady diet of that. And if they are, might as well tune up the FMJ to similar pressures to ensure reliability and maximize penetration. 4. Even with (especially, actually) the ball ammo, penetration is key, becayse the targets will generally be farther away than typical civilian CCW or police encounters, *and* more likely.to be wearing a bunch of crap other torsos you have to get through (like web gear with things in the pouches). You don't LOSE anything with FNJ pistol ammo making it pemetrate *more*, and you might just gain an advantage if it turns out you need a skosh more "oomph" to blast through to the juicy bits than standard pressure ammo (and US SAAMI specs for.9mm are laughably weak - SAAMI pressure ammo is well known for sometimes having reliability issues in European 9x19mm guns due to low power). US SAAMI spec is practically Glisenti pressures, due to fears of liability (like someone running 9x19mm Parabellum through a ratty Italian pistol never spec'ed for real 9mm Parabellum) That's why standard military 9x19mm ammo around the world tends to run near SAAMI +P or +P+ pressures - just like the new rounds selected with this program.
@@geodkyt Ian covered the ammo. The standard ammo for the m17/18 is 115gr at 1320 fps. That is +p at least. Normal 115gr fmj is around 1100-1150 fps. The special ammo is 147gr hps, and are also +p. These pistols are rated for a 35000 round service life using the supplied ammo. The barrels are made to withstand a steady diet of it, and are different than the commercial barrels.
The US doesent actually follow the rule for that, since we also enforce the rule lmao the ball ammo is to look nice on paper for service use they get hollow points
9:41 While I doubt it was ever confirmed, i wouldn't be surprised if this was the single biggest reason the Sig P320 beat the Glock 19X. Considering how many people (particularly cops) accidently shoot themselves and others when disassembling their Glocks, I honestly think this was a clever addition to the Army's requirements.
If i was in charge of procurement that alone would have made the choice for me. Requireing a trigger pull on disassembly, particularly of a service arm. Results in a wholly unneeded safety risk
I think the military missed a beat when they used the same grip frame for the M18. When I heard 'compact', I thought the grip should have been a bit shorter for concealability, even if it meant giving up a couple of rounds. ---- As an aside, Ian, would you consider doing an episode on the development of the Kel-Tec P-11, since that was the original 'chassis-in-grip frame' pistol? While Sig has greatly refined the concept, they were not the first.
If the grip frame was shorter, they would have magazine incompatibility issues. Amd since the frame size chosen for the full size M17 was basically already the *compact* sized frame, it works out really well for the *compact* M18 variant of the full size service pistol. It's only a skosh taller than the standard civilian compact frame (½" or so), and just allows my not-particularly-large hands to fully sit on the frame (while my P250Cs - which use the same frames as the 320 series - has half my little finger off the grip and on the front of the floorplate). It's basically the same size as the P228/M11 the M18 was intended to replace. The military *didn't want* a subcompact or microcompact standard issue pistol for concealed use. For folks who legitimately need even deeper concealment than that, well, that's what "unit discretionary funds" are for.
I have the Smith & Wesson 2.0 that was submitted for the trials. As far as I'm concerned having never actually fired the sig I believe that just from visuals and reviews the army made the wrong decision. And the fact that they made the decision so quickly leads me to believe that there was a little bit of corruption in there. Especially when it comes to modularity. The fact is that you can swap grip sizes in the field, you don't have to change the whole gun. You can literally hand the pistol that is assigned to the soldier to that particular soldier at the range with all the different groups and let them shoot until they decide on a grip size. The Smith & Wesson is more streamlined and with a lower bore axis. And of course it does not have the safety concerns that the sig does
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE TO WIN!
go.getenteredtowin.com/forgottenweapons
DEADLINE to ENTER is TONIGHT 04/28/23 @ 11:59pm (PST).
I'm french so if i win i'm pretty sure i'd go to slammer for illegal weapon. I shan't participate but i appreciate it
@@beefmaster3196 dude go for it good luck
@@frisk3320 lmao I'm pretty sure they wouldn't pop a pistol in a box and send it over the mail
I live in Commifornia. I'm retired law enforcement but can't purchase off-roster guns. I really need to move.
Does the Weapon, packaging or something else with an autograph of Ian Mccollum? :D (not that I can enter, I am living in the worng part of the world for that :( )
Having spent ten years on active duty in the Army, I can tell you, with absolutely no worries of being wrong, that, while modularity/fit the grip to the user is a nice idea, anyone who goes to their unit armorer - unless they happen to outrank him - and says, "I want a different grip module for my gun," is going to be told, "Shut the fuck up and move out."
The true “Forgotten Weapon” is the predecessor to this series of pistols, the SIG P250. It was a hammer type DA only using a similar fire control group. Available in subcompact, compact, and full size, with three grips for each size in small, medium, and large. It was available in all the different sizes in 9mm, .40 S&W, .357SIG, and .45ACP. After the initial purchase from your FFL you could order different size and caliber “kits” direct from SIG. The .22lr was only sold as a complete pistol.
A SHAME that’s not THE go to pistol for the loser states like CA MA.. it’s like a 15 round k frame it was beautiful
There was also a p250 in 380 auto that was a locked breach like 12 or 15 round 380 if I recall.
Always did find those kinda interesting. As far as I can recall, they were barely adopted by anybody except the Hong Kong police, and I believe that was mostly just the Triad investigation unit.
No matter what sig says, they based their 320 on the 250. They turned a 250 into a modular striker fired pistol.
@@regularguyprepper and they stole the modular chassis system from Steyr.
"What kind of idiot is going to leave the gun loaded and pull the trigger when they go to disassemble it" - clearly these people have not met soldiers.
Or cops, or civilians....
For all the perception people have of the military, not all are trigger pullers, and even less train with pistols or even issued to trigger pullers. Field grades, First Sergeants and above, aviation units, and even tank commanders are issue pistols, but how of them actually practice with pistols? I was taught the stupid tea cup method and shot the M9 only a handful of times. It wasn't till I got out the military did I really started to understand firearms including pistols.
@@resolute123*issued
There's no avoiding dumbass moments. There's only knowing to be prepared for them, or being overconfident and getting got by them.
I consider myself to be very careful with guns and I've done that.
I spent many years in military logistics and seriously doubt that your will ever see the modularity of the system used.
Yeah, usually the army just orders custom variants of existing arms and gets a discount on manufacturing. Unless you're a sniper or special forces the army doesn't trust you to modify your own weapon
As I understand it, part of the procurement process is making sure the weapons are as Grunt-proof as possible.
It's not that the modularity would be used by those who would be in combat. I don't know what kind of military logistics you worked, but take a look at the M16 and AR carbines. It's a prime example of modularity being used, especially the AR carbines of the past.
15th Toilet Paper Logistics Division?
Feel like the real reason it needed to be modular was so that if the polymer frame got ludicrously damaged they can replace it - that being about the extent of it. (Now what that threshold would justify replacement, given military standards, is another matter…)
I was in the British army when we were still using the Browning hi-power, there were quite a few stories of guys stripping them down, reassembling them and when doing a function check, because of the magazine disconnect, putting the mag in before dropping the slide and firing off a round.
I can understand the requirement to be able to remove the slide without pulling the trigger.
My son is in the USMC in the infantry and he inherited my late father's M18 last year. I didn't want to like it with the strange trigger, but in use it was fantastic to shoot in practice. Comfortable like driving a luxury car and super accurate. I was amazed. But I really wanted my son to get the edge when he was on leave for a possible pistol qual and a few weeks ago he earned expert while deployed. We appreciate marksmanship in my family too so we're super proud of this.
Grandpa passing down a polymer striker fired guns sounds weird
@@sunlight-sky151 Right? Makes you remember 80s were over 40 years ago
Love my M17. Have a RMR & Wilson Combat grip module on it. Slick shooting.
I have one with a Wilson Combat module too. I swapped it out for a P80 one. The texture on the P80 is better in my opinion . I bought the OD green , and it looks sick with the tan slide .
US military: "Hi SIG we really like your pistol but can you make it for dwarves and wookies?"
SIG: "Ahhhh, ok"
It needs to fire from an open bolt as well, in case we get Jerry Miculek in the service and need to cool it down.
Smh my head inclusive wokeness is out of control. We are accepting them now too...😢
@@eight-cloudspurple5871pss off weak fk
After many many hours of watching Ian's videos, I would like to say Thank you! These videos are not easy to make ans most get demonetized. I bought the mug with Ian's mug. I am happy to support the channel. Thank you and I hope you keep making these videos!
Fun Fact™: It does not matter how many grip sizes are available. The Sergeant Major is going to say *_"ONE_* is all you need, this *_AIN'T_* Burger King where you have it *_YOUR_* way!"
Never underestimate the ability of a Senior NCO to meddle in a decision-making process where he *_DOES NOT BELONG_*
He's just making excuses to cover for the CO who redirected that funding to buy new office furniture for his staff.
"What kind of idiot unloads the gun with a round in the chamber?" An 18-year-old who's been in combat/training for 20+ hours with little prior experience with weapons.
Yep. Folks who don't understand or appreciate the effect of fatigue and stress and maybe don't always work under the nicest LED lighting.
Plus, simply. That it may be an 18yoa E-1 from Newark taking the handgun apart and he's scared to death of it anyway.
Never underestimate the abilities of an E-1 to break their equipment.
"with little prior experience with weapons." Or a know it all who is convinced he's the reincarnation of the perfect Marine.
I agree. I've seen "experienced" officers and senior NCOs have NDs because they thought that they had cleared their weapons. Add in fatigue and/or inexperience, and you have a recipe for it to happen.
It's not just some 18 year old, E-1. Not to cast dispersion against my Polish Brother in Arms, but one of their officers discharged a round (luckily into the clearing barrel) before entering our TOC years ago when I was in Iraq. It just so happened a few weeks prior, one of our guys came off of guard duty as they arrived, shaking his head and asking out loud "Have you ever seen their officers clear a pistol? It's a s-show."
I was a Combat Marksmanship Trainer at Camp Lejeune at the end of my enlistment and was an instructor for Coaches Course, and we were part of the rollout of the M18 at Lejeune which was a really cool experience. One standout issue we had with them was that the single torque screw wasn't good enough to hold the rear sight in place so I had one student firing and suddenly the optics plate and rear sight went flying. According to the armorer we brought over to inspect it wasn't an isolated issue either. Otherwise, from the Marines we taught on the M18 is was received extremely favorably and I certainly preferred it over the M9.
Sounds like they just need to ditch the rear sight and fit them all with optics from the get go.
Haven't gotten to play with one yet beyond just cleaning but overall I like the feel a lot better than the m9. Also I have tiny hands.
That brings back a core memory of my range duty in the British Army. A new qual was firing his Browning (just a few months before the full rollout of the Glock as the new standard sidearm), I walking the line and heard a metallic 'Ping' instantaneously followed with a 'Fu**ing hell Staff Sgt!' Slide failed and smacked him in the face. No injury, but did give him and me a laugh at unintentional firearm dismantling at high speed!
At the time, I didn't think MHS was a big failure. But now, I really think we should've just selected the glock. A more known quantity does not exist. Sig (mostly due to their president randomly making people delete features AHEM safety features) makes a bunch of rolling changes, has a bunch of random problems on basically any particular 320.
They're fine pistols but there's just so much random stuff to worry about. I can't trust any particular 320 I haven't used before. They have several different skus for things that you would think would be universal to all 320s of a given configuration... there's a bunch of tiny differences.
It's literally like WW2 German manufacturing. INFINITE ROLLING CHANGES ALL THE TIME
Do you have any stories re: the M45A1? I have a “schoolhouse” decomm from Lejeune. Always wondered how many rounds went through it.
@@mikeschotte9480 Coaches Course POI didn't involve M45A1s when I was an instructor, when I went through Combat Marksmanship Trainer's Course we did pull some competition-spec Caspian M1911s (Don't remember the manufacturer) from the armory for basic familiarization though we didn't get to shoot those. The POI for CMT course actually included a class on basic disassembly and familiarity with every individual small arm in the USMC to include M4/M16A4/M27, M1014, M500, M18, M9, various Glocks (Didn't have any on hand though since those were basically CID-only), and M45A1s (We used the Caspian M1911s as a stand-in since we didn't retain M45s but did have the Caspians for competition shooting at WTBN).
Fun fact, I was the lead instructor in the Marine Corps on this pistol for a while. Quantico never gave out any training guidance for our marksmanship instruction. I had to use my own prior knowledge and help from Sig experts in order to create proper class material for it.
Another fun fact, we got the wrong sight package for them. So we didn't get the intended #8 front and #8 rear sight. Instead of "building the castle" and lining up a normal combat sight picture, aligning the tops of the front and rear sights, you had to "build the pyramid." You had to bisect the dot on the front sight with the top of the rear sight or you'd be hitting the pelvis when aiming at the head at 25 yards.
We also cheaped out on our order when it came to glue for the screw on the rear sight. The regularly flew off in the middle of live fire training because the Marine Corps was too cheap to pay for the actual Loctite that was intended to hold the screws in place.
I absolutely love this pistol.
USMC 01-06 here, now Army National Guard, got to try the new sig's out a couple years back. Our sights are wrong as well. But that can and was fixed with training.
Good to hear. I have one enroute to my ffl now.
Thank you for shedding light on the rear sight Loctite situation. Most people here are the first to blame SIG for everything from their stomach ache to their car breaking down.
My wallet is broken because Sig
I had several M17 rear sights far off despite the fact they when from the arms room to the sponson box and then back to the arms room after a 2 week FTX. The rear sights falling off is concerning to me, because if they are to lazy to do that right what else did they screw up?
Just completed my USMC combat marksmanship coaches course with the m18, absolutely loved the gun.
Some of the M17s have been losing rear sights. Make sure they're tight and don't let your officers mess with them (namely medical providers)
Army released a PSA on this recommending loc tite on the screw and updated torque spec, I believe it was published in '21.
Wait, why are medical providers messing with handguns in the first place?
Wait medics? Why them?
What
Definitely don’t let MOs (medical officers) mess with their weapons. They get to shoot for qual, then it goes right back in the armory.
Thank you for this great video. It is nice to have the differences between the M17 and M18 laid out so clearly.
Ooooh I really like that. I loved the colt commander. The shortened 1911 that air crew used to carry. Nice Cheers Ian.
To hit a target with a group-size of 4" at 35 yards, 90% of the time, is approximately 11 MOA.
The first original M18s issued also had tan controls (very few units got these) but were replaced within a couple of months for the newer ones that had the black controls. Good guns overall, the marksmanship scores went up as well as the smaller framed soldiers didn’t have to deal with the double action trigger for the first shot on the M9s and M11s (sig 228, West German made). The optics plates with the screws attaching it at the bottom were the only issue I know of.
I agree that they’re good guns, but in my own personal experiences marksmanship scores went down. The pistol is noticeably snappier in recoil compared to the old school Beretta M9. The magazines are considerably better on the new sig models though.
My unit ran pistols hard and a majority would’ve appreciated updated berettas or glocks over M17s, but opinions of soldiers don’t mean much anyways and the grass is always greener on the other side.
@@eNoble-US that’s the difference, I was talking about the M18s which are better balanced than the M17s. I don’t know why, but I had a difficult time grouping with the M17 vs the M18 was very easy and it had a nicer recoil impulse than the M17. It defies logic as the longer sight radius and longer barrel would in most cases be better, but I think the balance was so off it created more issues. Plus it depends on which shooting quals you are doing and how strictly enforced some of them are. The M18 definitely helped in the one handed shooting tables and not having to deal with the first double action trigger pull at the beginning of each table (which was enforced) aided in more hits on target, especially when timed. Now I will say when the legacy pistols, either the M11 or the M9 when in SA, they were nicer to shoot. And I do believe the berettas are better shooting guns once a better and lighter trigger system is installed, but you would never see that in the military.
@@Duty2Domicile I agree, good talk man.
7:45 the scan code being etched on there is AWESOME. think of all the logistics and automation you can do! think of the reduced human error!!!
"What kind of idiot?". It happened in the parking lot where I work a couple years ago. An employee was showing another employee his Glock and wanted to take it apart to show him the aftermarket upgrades he had made. He didn't clear it properly and when he pulled the trigger (a required step in taking apart a Glock) he put a bullet in his leg. Interestingly I work at an internet retailer that sells, among other things, firearms.
Thanks Ian for the indepth review. We just recieved this exact (Sig P320) gun-for the exact reasons-to replace our aging HiPowers. 🇨🇦
Finally!
@@speedythree That's what I said, I don't remember the whole adoption period, but it was alot longer than Ian mentioned for the American military. Our HiPowers were so bad, a bunch were kept around to rob parts from to keep the "main" ones in the field!
@@bobhill3941 I remember firing them back when I joined the Reserves, back in 1977! And they were roughly 30 years old back then! Our adoption process had a few hiccups in it; it began in 2011, had to be restarted in 2016 and then again in 2020! Third time is indeed the charm.
@@speedythree Thanks for the reminder, I remembered reading about all those trials.
@@speedythree I remember in 2011 reading in the paper on my lunch break at work when these were being surplussed. Dad and I talked about how cool it would be if we both had one.
That rear sight comes off really easy during firing as well.
Yeah I've seen them come off but usually because they weren't torqued to spec. They don't just yeet off the gun because you fired it. Like most things with guns usually the user did something and didn't put it together right. Otherwise I would have seen them come off one of the 3 I own with the plate rear sight still on. All over 3 to 5k rounds sight isn't even loose
Every optic ready gun with a plate will have this happen if not torqued and/or toctited on well. Same happens with Glock MOS.
@@unclefreedom213 all of the ones in out Armory are straight from sig. We don’t use red dots on them so we have never had the need to remove the sight. I understand why sig wouldn’t use thread locker on them in the factory, but they come off regardless on military ones. Maybe they stepped their game up with the civilian ones.
My theory has been that the military will issue a grip module of the appropriate size to each soldier with their TA-50. This, then makes it incumbent on the soldier to replace it if it gets damaged, but could also make it viable for the solider to make authorized changes in order for the pistol to better fit them if needed.
Most soldiers and Marines won't carry the pistol, it's typically issued to officers, medical personnel and senior NCO's. I still am responsible for gear I was issued in the early 2000s right before molle came out. Such as an Alice Pack, the old style sleeping gear, etc. I like how you're thinking, but I really don't want any more gear to store.
This won't happen because it would have to come from the armory. Thusly having to be turned back into the armory when changing duty station. At that rate the armorer may as well do it when it's issued.
Actually would be pretty dope to have a series about military tries. So which guns were send in and which one was finally chosen with which "rationality"/"reasoning".
You sprinkle in these details often on individual weapons, but often I'm missing the context to understand this fully.
I still believe the M18 wasn't the best option. Im pretty sure there were some sneaky back door deals for sig to get the contract.
Lot's of Army government officials got paid extra cash to pick the Sigs.
I was attached to the 101 during Operation Desert Storm. Unfortunately I was injured and sent home. I missed being there for my men. I was their Ssgt their leader. Thank God all of them came home alive. I also was a cop in the USAF for 9 1/2 yrs. We carried the .38 & 92f Berreta.
I just bought this on Wednesday. Was interested to see what your thoughts were. You sir are a wealth of knowledge. Thank you for all the years of stellar content.
I keep an m18 in my car all the time. It was the first pistol i shot with a red dot and im just comfortable with it. I carry a 365xl with a romeo zero and it takes more focus to shoot accurately.
(@7:39) Ian was comparing the M17 & M18 pistols: I think he meant to say, “so you won’t see any non-black ones” (M18’s), rather than “so you won’t see any black ones.”
I suggest you show the reverse procedure of putting the pistol back together. If you get the barrel spring in the wrong vertical vs horizontal position it the slide will not go on correctly, and pushes out the forward part of the pistol spring, causing it to not lock.
RIP M45A1/1911. I’m sure it will still be used in very small numbers, but I can’t help but be saddened over that workhorse being retired. I understand it though. I’m not even a 1911 carrier. I love my P320 and my P220 pistols.
The 1911 got retired back in the 1980s. The M17/M18 are replacing the M9.
@@CrunchBite319 the M45 is a modernized 1911, its still used by some recon and raiders
@@drewvanduyn7571 M45 A1 Life was pretty short. It won't be missed.
@@WALTERBROADDUSI thought that too but I actually saw photos of Marines training with it even just a few years ago, so evidently they still have some in service. Even talked to a gunsmith who was a former Marine that confirmed there were still 1911s there.
How often they’ve actually been issued in the field, not sure, but that is impressive staying power for a 100+ year old design. lol
Wonder how well the various double stack 1911 upgrades would do now.
@@gameragodzilla ruclips.net/video/FD_AGr-MSNs/видео.html
Great vid, Ian! My son is purchasing the civilian version, so I had the chance to check it in person. Gotta say, awesome gun. Simple and intelligently laid out.
Sig makes, imo one of the best handguns I’ve ever used. I love my P250.
they even shoot all by themselves!
Not really, HK make far more durable and better performing pistols than Sig and have the history to prove it.......and HK don't shoot on their own like the P320 do.
great firearm! I carry a compact p320 during the winter and a 365 in the summer with zero issues.
Just out of curiosity as a Western-Europea with interest in firearms but no way of using them, why do you use the different guns in different seasons?
@@H4FF width and girth of the grip makes it easier/more difficult to conceal with different seasonal clothing. A grip for a 17 round pistol make disappear under a winter coat, not so much under a white t shirt. The smaller 10+1 round 365 (my assumption on capacity) can disappear in summer clothes in a way the p320/m18 just can’t. Printing (being able to see that you have a gun under your clothes) is not proper CCW etiquette and is often illegal.
@ClassWarDesirer Ohh right, interesting! Especially also the legislation aspect - seems somewhat counterintuitive, when you know concealed carry is allowed but you're not supposed to be able to tell.
@@Nadaters 100 percent agree
@@H4FF yeah well cops need something to do and people love to be scared of bumps in waistbands. Printing reports likely get some number of people killed yearly by cops who get scared approaching a dude at the wholesale club
Thank you for sharing! Love your work
After watching too much Forgotten Weapons, I don't consider it a REAL military service pistol unless it's issued with a holster that attaches as a stock.
very good point
You forgot the ludicrously ambitious sights
@@Metikoidefinitely gonna be hitting things at 2,500 meters with your Luger.
As a Brit, I don't consider it a real service weapon until it has been rebuilt to a new specification at least twice.
This comment scratches my gun-nerd itch.
I love my M18. I actually use it for CC mounted with the Romeo Pro designed for it and it is great when heavier clothing allows.
I bought one because it was the only one I could find that could allow me to use winter gloves
I just left the 101st a half year ago and was there when we received the m17. We received two holster types. One for light and laser the other a pretty decent kydex double retention holster. It came with two magazines per unit. No one in my battalion used the light and laser because the Recon, AMU and 5th group guys always preach pistol is to get to your rifle. For my brigade team leader and above, 240 gunners and mortar men all carried or could carry the M17. It is a part of the training quals consistently for mortars and 240 Gunner's. Also the holster was extremely modular as far as using a drop leg harness or not. I know guys who came from SFAB to us prefer to carry it on their belt and not the leg holster. I'm guessing for conceal ability for KLE's.
Still sticking with the mk25. Taurus g3 and canik tp mags r interchangable with 226 mags. Canik mags wont lock the slide back tho
I had the opportunity to fire one at a range in North Carolina (P320). A really accurate, crisp pistol in my opinion. I really liked it in comparison to the older 226/229 type Sigs. I found it naturally accurate for my grip and it manages recoil really well. Probably the best of the bunch in procurement. I know the drop issues happened etc but I really can’t fault it and didn’t drop it so cannot comment!
These are so badass! I really like the feel of sig pistols in my hand.
Probably not the first to post this, M18 was adopted for protective services detail(MP), Criminal Investigative Division (CID, also MP). and Counterintelligence agents (Military intelligence). The Standard MP, Department of Army (DA) Guard and DA Police sidearm is the M17.
M18 is also used as a general officers pistol (I am sure unless they secure another through different means) and I am sure there are a few more plain clothes organizations using them around.
You're correct ... the GO pistol is the M18, procured off the same contracts but with the GO-specific serial numbers.
MA1 on my ship had hands in the 99th %tile. Too big for the M9 (original grip) during qualifying shoots he would always get gouges out of his hand from the slide.
My job as the Range Corpsman included cleaning blood off his gun after he shot and bandaging his hand .
Push comes to shove he can get a custom 3d printed frame these days.
@@OspreyKnight I'm sure he's retired now. This was 2005. So unless he went Mustang or master chief he'd be at least 28 years of active duty and forced to retire
Back then we probably could have gotten him Mec Gar 20 rd magazines and some sort of Hogue overmolded grips. I think he was just trying to get permission to carry a S&W 686 on duty instead of an M9
There were a few rare incidents of people with abnormally large or small hands just being issued non-standard side arms. For a while women were given 1911s because the Beretta grip was too chonky
The M9s for our pistol quals had many tens of thousands of rounds fired through them. You could wiggle them back and forth and the slide would clack clack like a musical instrument. The trick was to tilt them left or right so the sight was consistently against the barrel one way or the other, see where it hit consistently, then put a black pasty (sticker) on the target to aim at. If it shot low right you put the pasty high left. If you are consistent you could be shooting bullseyes no matter how misaligned it was. The M17/18 will be just as worn out in 20 years....probably.
X compact series guns have the double wound rear spring as well (at least mine does). I guess they decided to change that in that series as well.
I conceal carry it daily and its an conceals very well with the right holster
If you don't mind, what holster?
@@machinemaker2248 the tier one concealed axis elite. Im really skinny but it still conceals amazingly and it suprises everyone. I carry at work and all and none of my co workers have even noticed a print or atleast not enough to tell im carrying
I cannot imagine a scenario in which any of the "modularity" is actually used to fit someone's hand. Anybody saying they want to use a different polymer frame in the Army will be told to get bent.
Like the uniforms etc - you'll grow into it etc.
duty carry the m18 everyday, i just need to ask the armory for a bigger or smaller grip/ grip tape if i wanted to swap them out
In my unit at least, we got spare frames along with the M17s, and you can ask for one of the frames at the arms room. Not something a lot of people care about, but it's available.
Won't it just become like other kit where people just buy their own shit and hope their COC doesn't nail them for it?
Oh, like those of us that swapped parts on our own for the M9? Recoil spring/rod and grip panels were the first most of our unit swapped before we went to Iraq. I would be buying and using a Wilson Combat grip module for my M17/M18 now if I was still in. Same as I did with the M18 I carry daily now.
I can only imagine that you would be only given a pistol that would not fit your hand
I just got one and took it to the range and it’s ok, I prefer my CZ SP01 but I’m a metal frame guy. I do plan to swap the slide and grip out and mount a red dot to it and hopefully that changes my opinion on it
I like carrying the M18 much more but as an armorer it’s been a bitch to deal with. The slide release bent into the frame on a handful and would render them useless because the slide wouldn’t be able to move properly. The sights also came loose here and there.
What drives the military's decision to adopt both of these pistols? The difference in barrel length is less than 1". Wouldn't it be cheaper and simpler to supply everyone in the military with the compact version?
Looks like the ones you have the finish is coming off the slide, also... I hope they have a better finish on the ones that actually went to the military cuz they're definitely going to be a LOT harder on them than I was. I love everything about my M17 except the slide finish. I'm either going to complain to Sig and see if they'll do anything about it and if not, I'll probably Cerakote it!!! My P365XL isn't having any problems with it's finish. Why couldn't they have used the same on the M17/18???
I like how the M18 is basically the military finally accepting the "commander" size pistol from the 1949 handgun trials that didn't go through.
they got around to it, eventually
A great very interesting video and pistols GJ.Have a good one. Can you believe that once Zastava Kragujevac was on the brink of winning the pistol contract for the US Army against the competition of such as the Beretta and SIG?Can you compare somehow the modern pistols of these companies?
Another informative vid from Ian.
As usual.
You gotta hand it to Ian for covering weapons before they’re forgotten.
Got my M18 a few months ago used. Went to the range and tested her out a few days after and loved every second. Zero malfunctions, smooth trigger and pretty good accuracy at 50yds. Love my P320 and look forward to every trip to the range with her.
Now I’ll wait for the Sig haters to flood this comment 🤣
8 months later, there have still not been any Sig haters flooding your comment.
@@grammar_shark That’s a good thing
They launched the joint combat pistol program initially in 2005 but kept changing parameters and relaunching until the branches reached consensus with these so not really such a fast process.
My first and only conceal carry pistol
Good thing there is a safety on it.
I have big palm but short fingers. My m9a1 I hated. I put skinny aluminum side grips on and it helped but still can't shoot it straight. My 1911s just fits soo well in my hand I can shoot very effective. I feel if I were under combat stress I would do better with a 1911 even with less capacity
yeah its kind of an irony that the 1911 which has more notable recoil, fits better in smaller hands
I'm looking to get an M18 as a CCW pistol.
You talked about how it's a bit big for such an application and I agree, but a 1911 is really long and heavy, with a low round count. And given how this video talks about +P 9mm ammo being made for it, I'm not worried about pen issues. I chose the P320/M18 due to the shorter slide/barrel, thus significantly reducing any chance of the slide/barrel being push up when I'm sitting in my car. The M1911 would have a big problem doing that. Also, less barrel flip/rise when fired.
Thank you so much for such an informative video, especially the ammo part as I didn't know the gun had specialized ammo for it. 🙂👍
I retired from the Marines in 2014 and at the time there was no talk of replacing the service pistol. I stumbled upon this video, so the news of not only the Marines, but the other services finally moving away from the Beretta M9 stands out.
Next: the mud test on that trigger group.
I see Sig came out with a military red dot for the M17/18 only. Priced a bit over $800.00
Did you get your words mixed up? Priced OVER a bit ....$800!!
@@jezjukes 🤣🤣
I remember the M9 fitting like a glove in my hand. Though my palm size is small, my fingers are very long. It's very difficult to find a proper glove size, and when choosing a CCW, I genuinely can't use anything smaller than a compact because my fingers get in the way of a proper grip. I have oversized grips on my taurus public defender poly and they are just slightly too big palm size, but I have plenty of grip due to my fingers. Sucks for shooting but makes playing guitar pretty easy lol
Love my P320! Favorite gun to hold and shoot. The AR of pistols
so advanced it even shoots by itself!
Nothing beats the SIG M11 I had the privilege to carry while deployed.
slide sarrations on each side are six on front and six on rear, but the commercial or commemorative are seven on front and seven on rear.
I just purchased one of these bad boys and can’t wait to go shoot it and break it in this weekend!
Big fan of *some* of Sig’s products. I own two P320’s and I honestly regret buying them (and spending money on pointless mods). Would have been better off putting that money into a P226 Elite and more ammo.
Hey Ian you should look into the Steyr IWS 2000. Smooth bore anti material gun.
I concur!
They messed up with the 320 line.
The bore axis is terrible just because they borrowed their 250 hammer fired frame.
Having owned a 19x & a 320, there is absolutely no way the 320 won on merit, it had to be standard shenanigans.
People with small hands, will love this! I can think of at least a few people who would love this.
Anyone else wonder why the slide looks very tall, like how high is that bore-axis?
The bore axis issue is more a theoretical than a practical issue. Grip shape and contours matter more - I find my M18 to be less flippy than my Glock 19, entirely due to the grip frame allowing me to get a better handle on the gun.
it is a bit tall, but that would only be an issue if you're firing your sidearm very fast, which you shouldn't really be doing anyway.
@@geodkyt Don't forget the Beretta 92 has the same BA as a P320 or a P226. The 1911 even has a BA very very close to the M9 or P320/P226. Yet no one complains about shooting a B92 or a 1911. Just shows you how full of s*** people are.
@@great_deception those both have more weight to soak up recoil
@@noturfather1106 Then that is physics, heavier guns dampen recoil more. Nothing relating to BA. The M9 and P226 are both aluminum framed with basically the same BA. Yet people say "only" the P226 has a high BA and is not shootable. this is getting ridiculous.
In terms of use its just m9 2.0
They dont get used except for qual ranges and theyre already beat to shit.
The difference is that you can replace the frame that gets beat up.
@@WALTERBROADDUS except that the army isntnwillingnto pay for that. The M17s in my arms room are absolutley beat to hell
@@dak4465 well, when your $31 trillion in debt....🙄 there's going to be some budget priorities.
Its pretty funny hearing you say that the M18 was adopted by the USN while I'm currently armed up on my ship with an old ass M9 still. I want my M18 😭
Don't feel bad. My son is a Navy O-3 and he doesn't have an M18 yet either.
Time.
I’m currently deployed with an expeditionary security unit and we still have M9s and so did the ship I was attached to. It was annoying to see base security everywhere have M17s when we don’t and our training requirements are much higher. At least the M9s we had were in pretty good shape.
It sounds about right. We had ancient 1911s in Korea 7 years after the M9 was introduced. We also had M16A1s only getting the A2 in 1992...
@@jonnytestnj2668 yeah, it's hilarious when I'm standing watch and I see the base security guy pull up with his M17 and I'm standing there with my M9 lmao
They are great and we can select from different grip sizes too. Great shooting with them.
As someone who likes Sig pistols and is familiar with how government acquisitions for weapons work I found this video to be especially entertaining.
Imagine you couldn't shoot a gun because you're not legally allowed to mod the grip. Good thing SIG thought of that ahead of time.
I didn't realize the millitary was being held back by the same red tape as civilians. Pretty odd
@@rn9173 The military may end up with similar regulations, but for different reasons.
For example, they may decide not to have every single grip mod available in order to save money. Or to ensure troops can still be combat effective with stock configuration firearms.
It's as simple as asking the company armorer on to put on the large or small grip for you. Takes him 15 seconds. Source: I was a company armorer for a couple years and changed out a few grip modules for people.
Its not your gun, its the military's gun.
Additionally most people don't know they can ask for things to be modified. Furthermore some commanders are major fuckups and put blanket prohibitions on modificaitons... even with the m17...
Its the same bullshit as issuing us gloves and a jacket with a hood and then forbidding us from wearing them.
@@Conan361 units mistreating their men isn't something I could control. I try to set my people up for success, I guess the cofps is different
Not in the military, but I picked one of these up at a gun show a year or two ago. Went from just another gun I own to my edc. It shots great and the red dot cutout is a great addition. Plus wilson combat grip and it's overall a great gun!
I love the guns, and they are very easy to carry concealed. From AIWB, I’m consistently .25 of a second faster with my M18 over my M17… from concealed AIWB, hands off the cover garment, draw and fire one shot on an 8 in target at 7 yds. in less than 2 seconds - the time is for newer shooters to get down to, then press on to ~1.25 or have multiple hits in sub 2 seconds or hit multiple targets in sub 2 seconds.
I bought a M18 frame but found it too big in clothes. Just a little fat, but it might be just personal opinion. Mine quickly found its replacement in a SIG P365 it’s not like I went much different. However, I did find the P320 is a fantastic holster gun.
@@SSgtCalebP Well you definitely have two great handguns. What to carry and how is definitely personal choice, preference etc. When I buy clothes, I’m carrying my EDC gear (at the time) while trying on clothes. Most often, my shirts and pants/shorts are a size larger to facilitate comfort and concealment for my AIWB preference. This is how I’m able to conceal my EDC XTEN for the last 10 or so months without issues. M18 before that… Tip, I’ve found button downs to be faster (than t-shirts, polos type shirts etc.) in that the support hand does a beer can type grip on the button line and rips upwards exposing the gun while the other hand is moving to grab the pistol’s grip. I’m about a .25 of a second faster w the M18 over the longer M17/XTEN. However, I struggle with shorter grips like the P365/Glock 19 etc.
Thank you , Ian .
🐺
Great vid. Enjoyed the breakdown.
I was a USMC 2011, i.e. Armorer. This "modularity" sounds like an excellent idea, but will be a total PITA in execution. No way in h*ll are grip modules going to be allowed to be "unregulated." Common sense goes out the window, the moment regulations are being written.
I believe the term regulation is more referring to ATF regulation.
I still prefer the Beretta, but I understand why they went with Sig for the modularity
The APX? Because the APX, the pistol Beretta submitted for the trials, has a removable chassis system just like the M18 (P320).
Thank you for the video. Only one small thing - it is not a QR code on the components of the pistol. QR codes are not used on any weapon parts for identification, it is a Data matrix.
Care to elaborate? I am curious
@@thenegociater3387 The basic visual difference between QR and DM is that DM does not have the squares in the corners, it has the "L" shape line. From technical point of view DM can be applied in much smaller sizes then QR (higher "information density"), should be more secure and readable (can be applied with very little contrast). It only holds the part identificator, so there is no need for a huge amount of data or special characters. It is also mandatory in some standards and some institutions take it as a mandatory identificator since it's an industrial standard, QR is not. I do not remember much other details... it's been a while since I studied this.
@@lukascacky7727 alright thanks
I bought my M18 just yesterday so this video is a welcome surprise lol
The only Marines authorized in the entirety of the corps to conceal carry are Security Forces Marines who are assigned to PSD (Presidential Security Detail). The M007 was theirs, not special forces
I'd say the smaller frame might help a little for concealment.
The grip on the M17/M18 is just as long as the M9. Both versions are full sized guns.
@@newdefsys Part of the 320's problem is the girth. I agree handle length is one of the primary factors of concealability but the width cannot be ignored, especially on the parts above the beltline.
Can't wait to continue qualifying with my 1990 beretta m9 for like 10 more years
I wouldn’t touch a striker fired pistol that doesn’t have a trigger safety, which is really a drop safety. Give me a DA/SA any day all day.
I'm wondering, considering they are restricted to fmj bullets, if it was worth using the higher pressure 9mm rounds? You get more recoil and shorter service life, but I'm not sure the terminal performance is much improved. If they were carrying expanding rounds, then I could see it. Maybe I'm wrong and there is some noticeable difference?
The US military is no longer limited to FMJs. The new +P rounds are hollow points.
1. They do issue expanding ammo for situations where even Hague signatories aren't restricted (and while the US isn't a Hague signatory WRT to expanding ammo, we do voluntarily comply). For instance, the Hague Conventions *only* apply in international wars where *all* combatants in a particular theater are either Hague signatories or formally agree to abide by them for *that* theater, *and* everyone is actually complying. Anything else (such as combat involving non-state actors like terrorists, or a war where a single participant isn't a Hague nation - even temporarily), the FMJ restriction doesn't apply.
2. Hague doesn't apply where the purpose of using "non-Hague" ammo is for legitimate mikitary purposes other than increasing wound channels. Such as when used to limit collateral damage in built up areas by limiting penetration.
3. Most rounds fired by these pistols will be in "non-Hague" environments anyway, such as MPs standing guard outside combat zones. Thus, the majority of Real World use will be the "non-Hague" ammo... so it would be nice if the pistols were designed for a steady diet of that. And if they are, might as well tune up the FMJ to similar pressures to ensure reliability and maximize penetration.
4. Even with (especially, actually) the ball ammo, penetration is key, becayse the targets will generally be farther away than typical civilian CCW or police encounters, *and* more likely.to be wearing a bunch of crap other torsos you have to get through (like web gear with things in the pouches). You don't LOSE anything with FNJ pistol ammo making it pemetrate *more*, and you might just gain an advantage if it turns out you need a skosh more "oomph" to blast through to the juicy bits than standard pressure ammo (and US SAAMI specs for.9mm are laughably weak - SAAMI pressure ammo is well known for sometimes having reliability issues in European 9x19mm guns due to low power). US SAAMI spec is practically Glisenti pressures, due to fears of liability (like someone running 9x19mm Parabellum through a ratty Italian pistol never spec'ed for real 9mm Parabellum) That's why standard military 9x19mm ammo around the world tends to run near SAAMI +P or +P+ pressures - just like the new rounds selected with this program.
@@geodkyt Ian covered the ammo. The standard ammo for the m17/18 is 115gr at 1320 fps. That is +p at least. Normal 115gr fmj is around 1100-1150 fps. The special ammo is 147gr hps, and are also +p. These pistols are rated for a 35000 round service life using the supplied ammo. The barrels are made to withstand a steady diet of it, and are different than the commercial barrels.
@@geodkyt good points. Thanks.
The US doesent actually follow the rule for that, since we also enforce the rule lmao
the ball ammo is to look nice on paper for service use they get hollow points
9:41 While I doubt it was ever confirmed, i wouldn't be surprised if this was the single biggest reason the Sig P320 beat the Glock 19X.
Considering how many people (particularly cops) accidently shoot themselves and others when disassembling their Glocks, I honestly think this was a clever addition to the Army's requirements.
If i was in charge of procurement that alone would have made the choice for me.
Requireing a trigger pull on disassembly, particularly of a service arm. Results in a wholly unneeded safety risk
I would have loved to have this over the M9 when I was in 👀
I think the military missed a beat when they used the same grip frame for the M18. When I heard 'compact', I thought the grip should have been a bit shorter for concealability, even if it meant giving up a couple of rounds.
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As an aside, Ian, would you consider doing an episode on the development of the Kel-Tec P-11, since that was the original 'chassis-in-grip frame' pistol? While Sig has greatly refined the concept, they were not the first.
If the grip frame was shorter, they would have magazine incompatibility issues.
Amd since the frame size chosen for the full size M17 was basically already the *compact* sized frame, it works out really well for the *compact* M18 variant of the full size service pistol. It's only a skosh taller than the standard civilian compact frame (½" or so), and just allows my not-particularly-large hands to fully sit on the frame (while my P250Cs - which use the same frames as the 320 series - has half my little finger off the grip and on the front of the floorplate). It's basically the same size as the P228/M11 the M18 was intended to replace.
The military *didn't want* a subcompact or microcompact standard issue pistol for concealed use. For folks who legitimately need even deeper concealment than that, well, that's what "unit discretionary funds" are for.
@@geodkyt Good points! 😎
I have the Smith & Wesson 2.0 that was submitted for the trials. As far as I'm concerned having never actually fired the sig I believe that just from visuals and reviews the army made the wrong decision. And the fact that they made the decision so quickly leads me to believe that there was a little bit of corruption in there. Especially when it comes to modularity. The fact is that you can swap grip sizes in the field, you don't have to change the whole gun. You can literally hand the pistol that is assigned to the soldier to that particular soldier at the range with all the different groups and let them shoot until they decide on a grip size. The Smith & Wesson is more streamlined and with a lower bore axis. And of course it does not have the safety concerns that the sig does
Why is M18 a forgotten weapon? It's very much in our memories.