Everybody want to criticize the Baker Ward run but it was still the highest rated time in the history. And Romana would eat River Song or Clara for breakfast.
Destiny of the Daleks is underrated, it’s just a bit of fun and that’s what we need nowadays with how the world has turned out. I feel like the fandom takes the show too seriously sometimes and forgets the fun side has existed since the start. Also, it’s target audience is families. Especially kids.
Terry Nation refused to write for the show after Destiny was rewritten. Would you tell him he took his show too seriously? The show (think 1963 now) originally lacked comedy. It had some humor come in, but very rarely was outright shtick, the self-effacing sort or otherwise. Not until the late 70s or more recent decades. Doctor Who has also been serious during times that were also tumultuous in the past (late 60s/early 70s).
The only real problem I have with Destiny is the fact that the Daleks are referred to as robots which was completely wrong but I get it worked with how the story was about 2 great logical battle computers in deadlock. I guess there was a suggestion that the Daleks had moved beyond their organic beginnings with even the Doctor referring to them as robots. I think this was due to some confusion or misunderstanding from the rewriters which included the late great Douglas Adams.
_Destiny_ is fine, it just suffers from some artistic setbacks like set design that didn’t really fire, one or two instances of miscasting (Gooderson, Barlow), and a writer who didn’t quite understand who or what the Daleks actually were . . .
The Horns of Nimon, although slapstick, is one of my favourite Doctor Who episodes and that of the Tom Baker era. I like it because it was a futuristic retelling of Theseus and the Minotaur. One of the greatest mythological stories ever told and it predated the cartoon Ulysses 31 by 2 years. It got brought down by the late Graham Crowden's overacting as the mad Soldeed. Sadly, I never got it on DVD. I do own the novelization by Terrance Dicks.
Mine too, but I was a Romana fan boy growing up. And Nimon is the first time since DR Who went color where the companion was the major character in an episode.
Graham Crowden is one of my favourite actors of all time, but there's no doubt he was a total ham in Nimon. I think Crowden needs a strong director to keep control of him and the direction of Nimon is very weak.
I think you nailed it. The Adams stories don't feel as ridiculous as the other stories of the season had and feel more cohesive and balanced... great points! Overlook what doesn't work, and most of the stories have genuinely good ideas. That said, Creature from the Pit definitely needed to be funny and the casting gelled together. But the clock fsce sketch joke didn't go anywhere, which is one moment of many on how 17 was getting stale regardless. It's good, but... Until season 24, 17 was the odd duck due to its bizarre tone...
I think that's the main point. Adam's humour is part of his own storytelling style, so it serves what he's trying to achieve. Adams putting a bit of his humour into someone else's script can seem jarring. I have a soft spot for Nightmare of Eden, and though Creature from the Pit is hard to take, I do like the costumes and Lady Adastra in that.
❤❤ absolutely right it has some good stuff in there here and there but the other episode that you mentioned are kind of silly and at that time Doctor Who was suffering from a lot of problems because they felt budgetary and science fiction was becoming more and more higher quality special effects wise people don't really understand special effects but you're just window dressing if you don't write a good story
I agree with you that season 17 ultimately fails to balance the humour and drama with the exception of City of Death. However there is a lot to enjoy, personally I like Destiny and Nightmare of Eden and I feel the Williams era is not as bad as some would suggest 👍
Nightmare of Eden definitely shows the problems with the humour/drama balance quite clearly. A lot of the other stories have a slightly messy mix of both, but Nightmare of Eden aggressively flip-flops between the two as if it can't decide which one to go for. I still really enjoy it and the rest of the season, even if that enjoyment is sometiles a bit on the ironic side. The Horns of Nimon goes way too far with the silly comedy bits (I mean, where else would you see the Doctor giving K9 CPR), but it gets so stupidly goofy that it kind of becomes good again. Sure, season 13 has a much better average story quality and season 18 has a great atmosphere (and is visually much richer looking than the late 70s), but season 17 never fails to put me in a good mood.
Nightmare combines very serious themes with frivolity so extreme. The Doctor replies to accusations of being involved with "I'm just having fun!" The audience wasn't and the media of the time lambasted the show as being too silly and tired. How much of that is Williams versus Adams or others, but would Nightmare be as slapstick if done in seasons 15 or 16?
Never was a fan of Season 17 had some good stories but a lot of the time it was like watching a bad monty python scetch. I feel they went too far with the slapstick if it was toned down a bit the stories would of been way better. Horns of the Nimon gets a bad rep but if this story had a more serious tone as it does have some dark elements the story would be more well recieved. But let's be honest Horns of the Nimon is many a fans guilty pleasure (although many won't admit it 😂) The same goes for Nightmare it could of been a really dark and serious story but the humour falls flat pulling down the entire story. If they had made it more focused like they did years later with The Vervoids it would be seen in more favorable light. I do have a soft spot of Nimon and Nightmare.
If we had had Shada, things wouldnt look so bad, and a lot of the failings of the worst stories are often visual, which Tom couldnt help but take the mick with
Everybody want to criticize the Baker Ward run but it was still the highest rated time in the history.
And Romana would eat River Song or Clara for breakfast.
Totally you don't mess with any of the Romanas lol
Sorry, say what you want. Tom Baker is and always will be my Doctor.
Destiny of the Daleks is underrated, it’s just a bit of fun and that’s what we need nowadays with how the world has turned out. I feel like the fandom takes the show too seriously sometimes and forgets the fun side has existed since the start. Also, it’s target audience is families. Especially kids.
Very true
Terry Nation refused to write for the show after Destiny was rewritten. Would you tell him he took his show too seriously?
The show (think 1963 now) originally lacked comedy. It had some humor come in, but very rarely was outright shtick, the self-effacing sort or otherwise. Not until the late 70s or more recent decades.
Doctor Who has also been serious during times that were also tumultuous in the past (late 60s/early 70s).
@@ShamrockParticleDid you skip the word “fandom” and is the word “writers” mentioned in my comment at all?
The only real problem I have with Destiny is the fact that the Daleks are referred to as robots which was completely wrong but I get it worked with how the story was about 2 great logical battle computers in deadlock. I guess there was a suggestion that the Daleks had moved beyond their organic beginnings with even the Doctor referring to them as robots. I think this was due to some confusion or misunderstanding from the rewriters which included the late great Douglas Adams.
_Destiny_ is fine, it just suffers from some artistic setbacks like set design that didn’t really fire, one or two instances of miscasting (Gooderson, Barlow), and a writer who didn’t quite understand who or what the Daleks actually were . . .
The Horns of Nimon, although slapstick, is one of my favourite Doctor Who episodes and that of the Tom Baker era. I like it because it was a futuristic retelling of Theseus and the Minotaur. One of the greatest mythological stories ever told and it predated the cartoon Ulysses 31 by 2 years. It got brought down by the late Graham Crowden's overacting as the mad Soldeed. Sadly, I never got it on DVD. I do own the novelization by Terrance Dicks.
Mine too, but I was a Romana fan boy growing up. And Nimon is the first time since DR Who went color where the companion was the major character in an episode.
Graham Crowden is one of my favourite actors of all time, but there's no doubt he was a total ham in Nimon. I think Crowden needs a strong director to keep control of him and the direction of Nimon is very weak.
Tom was the greatest. But he needed guiding. The way the BBC caved in to Mary whitehouse etc was pathetic
To the point where it was suggested at the time, and only half-jokingly so, that _Doctor Who_ be renamed and rebranded as _The Tom Baker Show_ 😂
I think you nailed it. The Adams stories don't feel as ridiculous as the other stories of the season had and feel more cohesive and balanced... great points!
Overlook what doesn't work, and most of the stories have genuinely good ideas. That said, Creature from the Pit definitely needed to be funny and the casting gelled together. But the clock fsce sketch joke didn't go anywhere, which is one moment of many on how 17 was getting stale regardless. It's good, but...
Until season 24, 17 was the odd duck due to its bizarre tone...
I think that's the main point. Adam's humour is part of his own storytelling style, so it serves what he's trying to achieve. Adams putting a bit of his humour into someone else's script can seem jarring.
I have a soft spot for Nightmare of Eden, and though Creature from the Pit is hard to take, I do like the costumes and Lady Adastra in that.
❤❤ absolutely right it has some good stuff in there here and there but the other episode that you mentioned are kind of silly and at that time Doctor Who was suffering from a lot of problems because they felt budgetary and science fiction was becoming more and more higher quality special effects wise people don't really understand special effects but you're just window dressing if you don't write a good story
I agree with you that season 17 ultimately fails to balance the humour and drama with the exception of City of Death. However there is a lot to enjoy, personally I like Destiny and Nightmare of Eden and I feel the Williams era is not as bad as some would suggest 👍
Nightmare of Eden definitely shows the problems with the humour/drama balance quite clearly. A lot of the other stories have a slightly messy mix of both, but Nightmare of Eden aggressively flip-flops between the two as if it can't decide which one to go for. I still really enjoy it and the rest of the season, even if that enjoyment is sometiles a bit on the ironic side. The Horns of Nimon goes way too far with the silly comedy bits (I mean, where else would you see the Doctor giving K9 CPR), but it gets so stupidly goofy that it kind of becomes good again. Sure, season 13 has a much better average story quality and season 18 has a great atmosphere (and is visually much richer looking than the late 70s), but season 17 never fails to put me in a good mood.
Nightmare combines very serious themes with frivolity so extreme. The Doctor replies to accusations of being involved with "I'm just having fun!" The audience wasn't and the media of the time lambasted the show as being too silly and tired. How much of that is Williams versus Adams or others, but would Nightmare be as slapstick if done in seasons 15 or 16?
Never was a fan of Season 17 had some good stories but a lot of the time it was like watching a bad monty python scetch. I feel they went too far with the slapstick if it was toned down a bit the stories would of been way better. Horns of the Nimon gets a bad rep but if this story had a more serious tone as it does have some dark elements the story would be more well recieved. But let's be honest Horns of the Nimon is many a fans guilty pleasure (although many won't admit it 😂) The same goes for Nightmare it could of been a really dark and serious story but the humour falls flat pulling down the entire story. If they had made it more focused like they did years later with The Vervoids it would be seen in more favorable light. I do have a soft spot of Nimon and Nightmare.
Even Tom Baker's worse story is better than any of the trash on TV now. I don't agree he ever had a bad story.
I would agree, except Underworld exists!
I would say he had more than his fair share.
@@normanby100 I don't agree. I mean I would listen to Tom reading the telephone directory.
If we had had Shada, things wouldnt look so bad, and a lot of the failings of the worst stories are often visual, which Tom couldnt help but take the mick with
Full agreement. City of Death is an all time classic. Destiny is the biggest disappointment and the rest of the season is poor.