What I really remember of him is this kind of sad scene where he’s asking Kira about art pieces and if theylook good, that he and his people don’t have a sense of aesthetics, and while he can’t fault or blame the Founders, he wondered what it’d be like to carry a tune. The Vorta and the Jem’Hadar were Uplifted from more primitive sapients, and in doing so, stole from them everything an instellar species should have beyond cognitive abilities or martial might. The Founders are worse then the Borg, the Borg assimilated actual people and in time could be returned, the Founders forged machines from the pre-evolved flesh of lesser creatures and took from them their souls and what wonders they could have been if they were left to develop on their own.
Agree. The Vorta and Jem Hadar are victims of the Founders more than anything else. The Vorta have been created to serve "Gods" that treat them with apathy at best, and outright cruelty at worst. They are forced to express undying loyalty towards beings that abuse and kill them casually, that view them as fully expendable and don't give even a tiny fraction of the loyalty they receive back. The scene in which Weyoun 6 dies perfectly exemplifies that - he, like all other Vorta, wants nothing more than the love and appreciation of his Gods. He is given what he wants at the end, allowing him to die happy, but all other Vorta are not. They are a tragic race, which makes them so interesting. I like that DS9 played with religious ideas like that, both with the Vorta/Founders and the Prophets of the Bajorans. Truly a great show, and by far the best Star Trek.
Yet another layered character DS9 was filled with. Yet another memorable villain. Yet another reason why DS9 is by far the best in the franchise. Weyoun paved the way for Comdr. Shran being such a great character as well. Garak, Rom, Dukat, Martok, Zek, Ishka, Winn, Bareil, Brunt, Nog, Sloan, Gowron... All of them just gems that OS, TNG nor VOY never even came close to having.
I have to disagree, DS9 may be my personal favourite and certainly has the greatest number of great characters, but it's not much better than TNG overall. And comparing it to OS is a bit unfair, which was a late 60's show. It was from a completely different time period, I know praising things "for their time" tends to sound a tad condescending, but in this case can hardly be avoided.
Yeah DS9 had such rich secondary characters. Really it's something Voyager could have had too. They are, after all, supposed to be a small, limited crew. But there weren't that many recurring characters and most weren't really fleshed out.
@@KnightRaymund Yet, bizarrely, someone actually figured out that all the extras we see are... about the crew compliment of Voyager, more or less. So they either purposely did that, or accidentally! And either way, not enough fleshing out of the background characters. Chell was a character I had a bit of a soft spot for, yet we only see him once (I think?) and hear him mentioned a handful of times before!
The last Weyoun received what could be the greatest complement a Vorta could ever receive. He was told by one of his gods, the female changeling, that he was the only solid she had ever trusted. Truly high praise for him.
I'm a pretty big fan of Weyoun, he feels like an archetypal religiously motivated villain, but he had such depth and nuance to him. He's the zealot done right.
Gigas0101 Eh, to me, Winn Adami was just a power-hungry politician. She wanted to be Kai because of the power the position had over the religious Bajorans, not out of religious fanaticism.
It also added to his character knowing he was genetically predisposed to worshiping them, a slave to his own DNA. He wasn't evil by choice, he was literally made that way; not Nature vs Nurture, but Design vs Nurture.
The strength of the Weyoun character was the actor that played him, Jeffrey Combs. He was great in the role. He had many other roles in the trek universe as well such as Brunt (FCA) and Shran in Enterprise. He brought the characters to life.
Props to Jeffrey Combs for the portrayal! Best line in all of DS9 probably belongs to him, when the Federation is about to retake DS9 : "Time to start packing!"
How did this show end up with the three best recurring characters in the franchise? Weyoun, Dukat and Garak are all amazing. Not to knock all the other great recurring characters like Martok.
There's a very good reason why arresting Jake Sisko would've been a bad idea. Arresting the son of the a holy religious figure would've led to an uprising.
Or the Dominion learned what real world Western governments learned decades ago: The best way to suppress people is to let them scream. You go around arresting people for saying bad things about you, it leads to rebellion. You let people open that pressure valve and they will rant a bit and tire themselves out.
I mean they say this but I don't buy it. It's not like the Dominion was shy about genocide. Assuming an uprising happened I think they would just kill everyone. Maybe even with orbital bombardment.
Eh? I agree with Damar--overconfidence, the hallmark of the Weyoun's, lol. It was clear that Damar eventually despised Weyoun on a personal level, so it wasn't just the founders' deal with the Breen that pushed Damar over the edge. Most characters (we see) can smell Weyoun's fakeness. I disagree with the premise that he was brilliant but the founders weren't. The founders controlled him... sometimes he made mistakes they wouldn't, and vice versa.
Interestingly, the Founders violated the rules of Sun Tzu. Sun Tzu said that military commanders should be entrusted to fight the war in the way they determine best, and that rulers should keep out of the way and not micromanage. The female Founder butted in and ruined everything Weyoun had set up.
@@annehaight9963 Weyoun was literally bred to do his job and came with extensive diplomatic, political, logistical and even strategic expertise. The Founder wasn't dumb, but she didn't have Weyoun's experience and she is further hampered by the immense hubris the Founders all have, IE their beleif in their own divinity and infalibility and the likewise, inferiority of solids
When the Breen destroyed The Defiant with their secret energy weapon and Weyoun was about to destroy the escape pods, the Founder stopped him and said to let the pods go back to the Federation demoralized to talk and spread fear. The Founders decision essentially ruined the Breen's secret weapon (and was arguably what lost them the war); they could've used it over and over destroying many ships if they'd have left no one to spread news of what it was and what it does..
While I wouldn't put Weyoun among my Top 5 of DS9 characters, he's definitely in the 6-10 spot. I love how they took a minor one-off character and turned into something so much more that it would have an impact on so many factors, like the Dominion and cloning, dynamics with Dukat, complications with Odo, etc. And unlike Dukat, Weyoun's ultimate end actually was fitting yet tragic.
So with Weyoun being the perfect servant of the Founders...that would make Weyoun the most competent and successful henchman in the history of henchmen.
Jeffrey Combs is the reason weyoun is still talked about to this day. I doubt any other actor could have brought that character to life the way he did.
The actor who played Garak, Andrew Robinson, might have been able to pull off a good Weyoun. But that ultimately leaves a Garak sized hole in the series and he was one of the best characters.
Even though it was played for comedic effect, I think one of the most interesting Weyoun moments was when he captured Jake and Nog in that episode where they were buying and selling stuff and then let them go. I hope I’m remembering that right 🤔 Anyway, you should know which scene I’m talking about. He was kind of merciful to them and let them go.
The one where he comments on siscos and dukats exchange while playing darbo and drinking poison is interesting too. Where he enjoys gambling and watching drama unfold and taking risk and provoking people.
@@jonsnor4313 And yet he completely defused the tension between Sisko and Dukat in that scene by drinking the poisoned kanar. It was diplomatically brilliant.
I literally bumped into Jeff Combs at a con in Birmingham in 2018. Said hello, shook hands, chatted for a minute or two and then we went on our way. One of the nicest guys.
I just realized. Just as the Dominion is the shadow to the Federation, so too is the Weyoun's a shadow to Starfleet officer. Utterly committed to his faction, and perfectly representing the ideals of the Dominion, just as most Starfleet officers try to exemplify the ideals of the Federation.
This was a fabulous analysis, well done! I do think Weyoun 6 was the only truly decent Weyoun, and his better qualities dominated. 5 was a very interesting mix of qualities, but of course duplicitous and ruthless in the service of the founders. 7 and 8 were exceptionally nasty. When I see his creeping up submissively to the female changeling's side, I'm reminded of a small boy looking for forgiveness or reassurance from his mother. I think he had an intense need to feel loved, the slightest approval from her would make his day, yet she carelessly disregarded that and seemed to hate his fawning on her. I also think no aesthetics, limited senses, and a lack of remorse for ruthless acts were tweaked in his genetics to make him completely focused on the task of winning the war, and they added cruelty to 7 and 8. The worst villain of all was the Female Changeling.
Yeah and I like how even though weyoun six was so different, his motivation hadn't really changed- he still wanted to serve odo, and cared deeply about the founders
I wish that they would have filmed that scene with Weyoun and his random artifacts in his/Bashir's quarters. That would have been so adorable and interesting
Weyoun is absolutely one of my favourite Star Trek characters. Like Dukat, he’s a character that you can see yourself being given the circumstances of their lives.
Weyoun's shock at Damar's announcement of the attack on Rondac III... "I could be the last Weyoun...!" Never crossed his mind before that he wasn't "immortal"!
I think one of the coolest things about Weyoun that im not sure if you mentioned. Is that he was aware that he was programed to view them as gods, and he knew he wasn't able to see them as anything else but gods because they programed him to be that way. I just find that interesting. Just the fact that he was kind of like a self aware sophisticated meat robot, intelligent enough to rub elbows with and keep up with and even outwit the smartest of people. Yet he knew... that he was designed to love being an expendible slave, practically cannon fodder... and he loved that about himself... by design ... and he knew it that too.... by design and he knew that too... etc. Like how does someone not be able to break away from that way of thinking once they become mindful of how mindless that is. .... unless the design is so ingrained that its just who they are and that way of thinking just couldn't be broken away from. And he knew that. Lol k im done.
Gorgeously articulated and well argued. I've just finished my first complete play-through of DS9, and I must say I didn't realize your point on his failure at the end. I think I agree with you, ultimately the Founder was wrong and poorly handled the end game, whereas Weyoun had been successful with his methods.
It'd be neat to see an update that looked at the (admittedly beta-canon at best) recent Star Trek Online expansion. Let's just say Weyoun and the female founder play part in the story
I have a question about Odo, if you don't mind: Do you feel the move to have his character infected with a disease which prevented him from shifting shape was vital to the story, or was it merely a cost cutting measure on the part of the show runners? If the latter, how skillfully do you think it was it done?
It was definitely an important part of his story. Remember, the loss of his shifting led him to begin to understand how humans feel, and he was overwhelmed by his emotions. Then there's the episode where they found the sick changeling and he tried his best to take care of it, but then the science guy (drawing a blank on his name) started to interfere, eventually leading to two breaking points. He learned that the scientist was right to have made Odod uncomfortable so that he'd change, and he began to lose his resentment for him. Then at the same time, the changeling restoring Odo's shifting also showed that he had been given a degree of redemption, that the changeling was glad to have had Odo try to help the poor changeling, which these two arcs wind up shaping his character to the point where all of those aspects were built upon later. It was cost cutting,but it was also a way to give Odo the ability to empathize more with people. You'll notice that he openly talks about shifting from them on our, and explains to characters what it feels like and why.
Weyoun was a devilishly wonderful character and one of my favourites of DS9. His problem was that he deferred to his subordinates far too much which brought him constantly into the Founders crosshairs. He trusted Dukat who lost him DS9, he trusted Damar who lost him Cardassia and trusted the Cardassian Fleet who lost him the war! Last clone or not, he’s lucky he wasn’t whacked by the female Changeling upon his first setback.
2:13 how do we know that Weyoun was responsable of infecting Odo with the changeling disease ? i thought that Section 31 was responsable when Odo was at Starfleet Medical
It's a running joke in SFDebris reviews, starting with "Dear Doctor", in which Archer and Phlox commit genocide through willful inaction, allowing an entire sentient species to die off from a genetic disorder. Chuck's fan theory on this is that this race was eventually saved by another Third-party and was transformed into the Breen, forever holding a deadly grudge against the Federation in general and Archer in particular.
Or that they found a way of dealing with the disease by living inside of suits. Hence why Weyoun says "their planet is actually quite temperate" when everyone thought it a freezing wasteland. They originally lived in a temperate climate, but the disease forced them to now exist inside the controlled environment of their suit.
I'm inclined to agree, but for all we know the Cardassians sense of aesthetics is just as limited as the Vorta's and they either don't know it or won't admit it
I can't help thinking that the show was having fun with how confusing the art world can be for most people - that scene was hilarious. Even Kira couldn't say if the painting was "good"
What some cultures value in art might be different than others. What if she used unconventional tools or materials? Just saying arts really hard to put a pin in.
one of the moments that really sticks with me is in what we leave behind when the female changling is dying. as weyoun is knelt in front of her theres a close up on his face and one of his contacts is pointing in the wrong direction. its really funny lol
The fact he collected bits of "junk" to examine, and his deep desire to understand art really reminded me of Thrawn. Even more so with some of the first Vorta making mention of the Dominions psychological brief on him and what to expect, Weyoun (and some other Vorta by extension) much like Thrawn sought to understand people but didn't let that understanding dull his objective or the ruthless means of reaching it. There was that scene he offers to make Sisko ruler of the alpha quadrant, and you can tell he already knows the answer but asks anyway just to see Sisko react. If I had to put a label to it, I'd say Weyoun is the political version of Thrawn, more well versed in the political arena then Thrawn was (which was one of his seeming weaknesses), and holding enough tactical intelligence to see a sound battle plan or a sound military mind under him and to allow those more military minds to do what they do best, which I think was a large part of the Dominion's military success was his letting the Jem'hadar do what they were breed to do while overseeing them enough to keep them on track.
It could also simply be the natural tendency of squirrel-like creatures to collect odd things. You can find several bits of odd stuff in nearly every squirrel nest you investigate. Mice do the same thing.
I've sometimes wondered what the original Weyoun would be like in person. I don't know if it was ever said that he was based of an original person or simply designed from the DNA up to what we saw in the show. Considering the variations in the clones, I've always liked to imagine (if it was so) the original Wyoun to actually be quite personable and less diabolical than his clones. Possible with a hint of self-awareness and empathy and flair- something the Founders deleted out of the clones in their misguided attempt to make him ruthless and cunning. I've sometimes assumed the clone from the episode Trechary, Faith and the Great River to be perhaps closest to the original Weyoun and the clone wasn't completely defective as such, just that in a rush to produce a new Weyoun the personality and morality of the original was passed on, giving us the Weyoun we saw with Odo in this episode who was quite opposite his other clones.
@@jonsnor4313 I don't think Weyoun was entirely informed when he told Odo the story of how the Vorta came to be. I personally think it's a lie and I also think they were enslaved long ago and resisted the Dominion initially with advanced technology, tech the founders probably stole for the Dominion. It's possible the Vorta procreated via cloning as they that advanced in THAT technology...something the founders used to their advantage in genetics to reprogram the Vorta and make the jem'hadar. What better way to humble and destroy a potentially advanced opponent than to make its entire species from that point onwards believe they were designed to serve the founders. It may be in keeping with their distain for solids. A species that opposed the Dominion and the (Vorta) were solids too. There's essentially a whole psychology in warfare that can be applied universally in some cases. It could be argued the founders lost the war and almost died because they enslaved and manipulated solids to do their dirty work. For a species that hated solids so much it's ironic they surrounded themselves so integrally with them. Imagine a mirror universe where the founders started something akin to a federation and were kind and benevolent...perhaps a better strategy for keeping their species safe....it worked for the federation against the Dominion...just ally with neighbouring species.
Watching DS9 back in the day, I always disliked Weyoun, Garak and to an extend Quark. I preferred the way Worf and Sisco were handling things. Watching the show now, being two decades older, I find it to be the opposite way around. Those three characters are the most fun to me now and I see their storys in a more nuanced light. Weyoun is a fun character, how he seems to be polite while being vile or changing the topic from an execution to the concept of art. He is the gentleman villain of Star Trek.
Please, please, please read this: The infection is NOT about the time Odo was infected by Section 31. It was the other time that Odo was infected. From Broken Link: ODO: Are you saying that you knew I was sick even before we left the station. FOUNDER: What do you think? ODO: I think you did this to me. You caused my illness so that I'd be forced to come home. FOUNDER: As I said, I wish the circumstances of this meeting were different.
If any other TV series come along Jeffrey Combs should be offered to play the captain. Between playing Shran and Weyoun as well as Brunt probably one of the more well developed character actors on the show perhaps only exceeded by JG Hertzler.. Would be interesting to see a story arc in that role...
6:23 More to the point the female founder did not trust the Weyoun's after number six's defection that in my mind was more the reason she promised earth to the Breen. 7:33 My feelings are on this unfilmed scene was Weyoun's primate brain at work collecting things just to have them. More to his abberant behavior that showed up in number six.
There wouldn't be any non related work stories.. He is born in a tank, at the age you see him, updated on current events and who he is, and then shipped off to start doing what weyouns do. His whole life is a story about work the moment he leaves the clone tank.
Jeff had a dream job. How many actors can have their character die over and over and over to merely reappear in the next scene or show as he was a clone. He made it up to Weyoun 8 before the final death (as the clone facilities were destroyed). LOL
Great character. But then DS9 had an amazing group of supporting characters that carried a huge amount of the story. Weyoun, Garrak, Dukat, Damar, Nog, Rom, Female Shapshifter, Marrok, none of these character even feature in the opening credits yet are amazingly important in the overall story. That’s why DS9 continues to be the strongest Trek series to date.
I’m not sure Weyouns demise was his own fault. The most likely outcome, until near the very end, was a Dominion victory. Switching sides, the most he could have done to prevent his downfall, would have led to an even greater likelihood of defeat. And if he had somehow felt the war was stupid or a mistake, he had to follow the orders he was given.
Hypothetically, if Odo didn't return to the Founders and died, would the founders consider themselves murderers? Changelings aren't supposed to kill changelings.
Running joke from reviews. So in this one episode of Enterprise, the NX-01 crew come across two alien races, and one of them is dying. They do all they can to save that race, but when Dr. Phlox discovers that the cause is a genetic defect, Archer abandons the aliens to their fate, stating "we didn't come out here to play God," and clumsily foreshadowing the Prime Directive. Dr. Phlox, and by proxy the show, applauds Archer for basically committing genocide through his inaction. Chuck came up with a jokey fan theory that the aliens would develop into the Breen, and forever hold a grudge against Starfleet in general and Archer in particular.
Nothing the Allie’s do or say has any effect upon the Dominion or the Dominion’s Allies. Even when the Dominion is, surprisingly, on the road to defeat, they still don’t (in good faith) negotiate for peace or surrender. Cardassians are open to ‘negotiations’.
![Megan Thee Stallion - Bigger In Texas [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QxTkZTLWdo4/mqdefault.jpg)
The running gag that Weyoun kept respawning after being killed...
Damar "Maybe you should talk to Worf again...!"
"Well helllooooo!"
Let's also not forget Damar's comment after Worf & Ezri escaped. "I'm sure she'll understand but if not, I look forward to meeting Weyoun 9."
Jeff Combs is a gem. Whether playing Weyoun, Brunt, or Shran...love him.
Loved him as the Question in Justice League Unlimited. He was the best character in that show.
He is a fantastic man and actor. Just so witty with great debonair as well.
Oh yeah, he is so great. It's always great to see/hear him.
yeah i thought that Combs was awesome as Commander Shran :D
@tylerx2f01 oh yeah your right i rememeber that episode wasen he the character that was quoting the Rules of Acquisition to captain Archer ?
What I really remember of him is this kind of sad scene where he’s asking Kira about art pieces and if theylook good, that he and his people don’t have a sense of aesthetics, and while he can’t fault or blame the Founders, he wondered what it’d be like to carry a tune. The Vorta and the Jem’Hadar were Uplifted from more primitive sapients, and in doing so, stole from them everything an instellar species should have beyond cognitive abilities or martial might. The Founders are worse then the Borg, the Borg assimilated actual people and in time could be returned, the Founders forged machines from the pre-evolved flesh of lesser creatures and took from them their souls and what wonders they could have been if they were left to develop on their own.
Jesus. Both are bad but ya. F the Founders
True, true. And the fact that art is subjective.
I like how the Dominion's very existence defended both the Prime Directive, and the Federation's ban on genetic engineering.
I agree with much of what you said. But not all Borg could be returned to their former lives.
Agree. The Vorta and Jem Hadar are victims of the Founders more than anything else.
The Vorta have been created to serve "Gods" that treat them with apathy at best, and outright cruelty at worst. They are forced to express undying loyalty towards beings that abuse and kill them casually, that view them as fully expendable and don't give even a tiny fraction of the loyalty they receive back.
The scene in which Weyoun 6 dies perfectly exemplifies that - he, like all other Vorta, wants nothing more than the love and appreciation of his Gods. He is given what he wants at the end, allowing him to die happy, but all other Vorta are not. They are a tragic race, which makes them so interesting.
I like that DS9 played with religious ideas like that, both with the Vorta/Founders and the Prophets of the Bajorans. Truly a great show, and by far the best Star Trek.
Yet another layered character DS9 was filled with.
Yet another memorable villain.
Yet another reason why DS9 is by far the best in the franchise.
Weyoun paved the way for Comdr. Shran being such a great character as well.
Garak, Rom, Dukat, Martok, Zek, Ishka, Winn, Bareil, Brunt, Nog, Sloan, Gowron... All of them just gems that OS, TNG nor VOY never even came close to having.
I have to disagree, DS9 may be my personal favourite and certainly has the greatest number of great characters, but it's not much better than TNG overall.
And comparing it to OS is a bit unfair, which was a late 60's show. It was from a completely different time period, I know praising things "for their time" tends to sound a tad condescending, but in this case can hardly be avoided.
Yeah DS9 had such rich secondary characters. Really it's something Voyager could have had too. They are, after all, supposed to be a small, limited crew. But there weren't that many recurring characters and most weren't really fleshed out.
I agree, ive tried other trek series but this the only series that has entertained me with its great characters
@@KnightRaymund Yet, bizarrely, someone actually figured out that all the extras we see are... about the crew compliment of Voyager, more or less. So they either purposely did that, or accidentally! And either way, not enough fleshing out of the background characters. Chell was a character I had a bit of a soft spot for, yet we only see him once (I think?) and hear him mentioned a handful of times before!
True but they had some competish from 7 of 9. That character is still unmatched in its depth & character ark.
The last Weyoun received what could be the greatest complement a Vorta could ever receive. He was told by one of his gods, the female changeling, that he was the only solid she had ever trusted. Truly high praise for him.
I'm a pretty big fan of Weyoun, he feels like an archetypal religiously motivated villain, but he had such depth and nuance to him. He's the zealot done right.
As opposed to say, Pope Whatsherface
Exactly.
Comradical Winn Adami? I don’t see her as a zealot, just power-hungry.
Gigas0101 Eh, to me, Winn Adami was just a power-hungry politician. She wanted to be Kai because of the power the position had over the religious Bajorans, not out of religious fanaticism.
It also added to his character knowing he was genetically predisposed to worshiping them, a slave to his own DNA. He wasn't evil by choice, he was literally made that way; not Nature vs Nurture, but Design vs Nurture.
The strength of the Weyoun character was the actor that played him, Jeffrey Combs. He was great in the role. He had many other roles in the trek universe as well such as Brunt (FCA) and Shran in Enterprise. He brought the characters to life.
He really did.
He played Penk in the Voyager episode "Tsunkatse"
Weyoun was a character who could not win. He was slavishly devoted to a race that had contempt for him and casually discarded him.
Props to Jeffrey Combs for the portrayal!
Best line in all of DS9 probably belongs to him, when the Federation is about to retake DS9 :
"Time to start packing!"
That or Worf: Find him and kill him!, in the holosuite baseball game
@@Evohunter7 Worf had an even better line in that same episode: "We will destroy them" when the baseball game is first proposed.
I love that line of Weyoun's. The way he claps his hands together, his tone and expression, just gold.
Matthew Cabanas Addley Death to the opposition!
How did this show end up with the three best recurring characters in the franchise? Weyoun, Dukat and Garak are all amazing. Not to knock all the other great recurring characters like Martok.
There's a very good reason why arresting Jake Sisko would've been a bad idea. Arresting the son of the a holy religious figure would've led to an uprising.
Or the Dominion learned what real world Western governments learned decades ago: The best way to suppress people is to let them scream. You go around arresting people for saying bad things about you, it leads to rebellion. You let people open that pressure valve and they will rant a bit and tire themselves out.
I mean they say this but I don't buy it. It's not like the Dominion was shy about genocide. Assuming an uprising happened I think they would just kill everyone. Maybe even with orbital bombardment.
How the Dominion could have won the war
Step #1: SHUT UP AND LET WEYOUN DO HIS FOUNDERS-DAMNED JOB THAT YOU CREATED HIM TO DO
Step #2: See step one...
Eh? I agree with Damar--overconfidence, the hallmark of the Weyoun's, lol. It was clear that Damar eventually despised Weyoun on a personal level, so it wasn't just the founders' deal with the Breen that pushed Damar over the edge. Most characters (we see) can smell Weyoun's fakeness. I disagree with the premise that he was brilliant but the founders weren't. The founders controlled him... sometimes he made mistakes they wouldn't, and vice versa.
Interestingly, the Founders violated the rules of Sun Tzu. Sun Tzu said that military commanders should be entrusted to fight the war in the way they determine best, and that rulers should keep out of the way and not micromanage. The female Founder butted in and ruined everything Weyoun had set up.
@@annehaight9963 Weyoun was literally bred to do his job and came with extensive diplomatic, political, logistical and even strategic expertise. The Founder wasn't dumb, but she didn't have Weyoun's experience and she is further hampered by the immense hubris the Founders all have, IE their beleif in their own divinity and infalibility and the likewise, inferiority of solids
If the Prophets hadn't interfered the Dominion would've 100% won. Its kind of difficult to plan around literal Deux Ex Machina.
When the Breen destroyed The Defiant with their secret energy weapon and Weyoun was about to destroy the escape pods, the Founder stopped him and said to let the pods go back to the Federation demoralized to talk and spread fear. The Founders decision essentially ruined the Breen's secret weapon (and was arguably what lost them the war); they could've used it over and over destroying many ships if they'd have left no one to spread news of what it was and what it does..
While I wouldn't put Weyoun among my Top 5 of DS9 characters, he's definitely in the 6-10 spot. I love how they took a minor one-off character and turned into something so much more that it would have an impact on so many factors, like the Dominion and cloning, dynamics with Dukat, complications with Odo, etc. And unlike Dukat, Weyoun's ultimate end actually was fitting yet tragic.
So with Weyoun being the perfect servant of the Founders...that would make Weyoun the most competent and successful henchman in the history of henchmen.
The shoe fits.
Please do a look at Damar! He's such a fascinating character and he grew so much through the course of the show.
Jeffrey Combs is the reason weyoun is still talked about to this day. I doubt any other actor could have brought that character to life the way he did.
The actor who played Garak, Andrew Robinson, might have been able to pull off a good Weyoun. But that ultimately leaves a Garak sized hole in the series and he was one of the best characters.
Ah, Weyoun...part angel, part lemur. One of my favorite ST characters.
Even though it was played for comedic effect, I think one of the most interesting Weyoun moments was when he captured Jake and Nog in that episode where they were buying and selling stuff and then let them go. I hope I’m remembering that right 🤔 Anyway, you should know which scene I’m talking about. He was kind of merciful to them and let them go.
The episode is "In the Cards". SF Debris has already covered it and yes you are basically remembering it right.
The one where he comments on siscos and dukats exchange while playing darbo and drinking poison is interesting too. Where he enjoys gambling and watching drama unfold and taking risk and provoking people.
Oh yeah, the way he drinks that and says 'That's quite toxic!' is just so great.
@@jonsnor4313 And yet he completely defused the tension between Sisko and Dukat in that scene by drinking the poisoned kanar. It was diplomatically brilliant.
Again, apologies that I was unable to re-record the audio as I'd originally hoped.
sfdebris all that matters is the script
Hope you're on the mend. And taking time for your voice to heal up.
We are thankful regardless. Your opinion is something viewers are always willing to hear, hurt vocals or otherwise.
just wondering why you need a re-record? db levels too low? use just a brighten effect and bring up the levels about +5db
It all sounded good to me, but unlike Weyoun, I’ve got great vision, but terrible hearing.
I literally bumped into Jeff Combs at a con in Birmingham in 2018. Said hello, shook hands, chatted for a minute or two and then we went on our way. One of the nicest guys.
Combs played him perfectly. Totally ruthless to those beneath him and totally obsequious to those above him. Great series.
Brilliantly written character and brilliantly acted. This character was incredibly deep. Loved him.
I just realized. Just as the Dominion is the shadow to the Federation, so too is the Weyoun's a shadow to Starfleet officer.
Utterly committed to his faction, and perfectly representing the ideals of the Dominion, just as most Starfleet officers try to exemplify the ideals of the Federation.
So he's the Dominions Picard? Sounds legit
Weyoun is completely committed to the Founders. As you stated, he was the ideal Founders servant. Every villain needs a servant like him.
This was a fabulous analysis, well done! I do think Weyoun 6 was the only truly decent Weyoun, and his better qualities dominated. 5 was a very interesting mix of qualities, but of course duplicitous and ruthless in the service of the founders. 7 and 8 were exceptionally nasty. When I see his creeping up submissively to the female changeling's side, I'm reminded of a small boy looking for forgiveness or reassurance from his mother. I think he had an intense need to feel loved, the slightest approval from her would make his day, yet she carelessly disregarded that and seemed to hate his fawning on her. I also think no aesthetics, limited senses, and a lack of remorse for ruthless acts were tweaked in his genetics to make him completely focused on the task of winning the war, and they added cruelty to 7 and 8. The worst villain of all was the Female Changeling.
Yeah and I like how even though weyoun six was so different, his motivation hadn't really changed- he still wanted to serve odo, and cared deeply about the founders
I wish that they would have filmed that scene with Weyoun and his random artifacts in his/Bashir's quarters. That would have been so adorable and interesting
Bigger the smile, sharper the knife.
Weyoun fits at it perfectly.
Weyoun is absolutely one of my favourite Star Trek characters. Like Dukat, he’s a character that you can see yourself being given the circumstances of their lives.
Been watching for years sfdebris, love your content.
Weyoun was a great Star Trek character played brilliantly by Combs.
Weyoun's shock at Damar's announcement of the attack on Rondac III... "I could be the last Weyoun...!"
Never crossed his mind before that he wasn't "immortal"!
last one in the alpha quad dominion which at the time looked like it was cut off from the gamma dominion.
I think one of the coolest things about Weyoun that im not sure if you mentioned. Is that he was aware that he was programed to view them as gods, and he knew he wasn't able to see them as anything else but gods because they programed him to be that way. I just find that interesting.
Just the fact that he was kind of like a self aware sophisticated meat robot, intelligent enough to rub elbows with and keep up with and even outwit the smartest of people. Yet he knew... that he was designed to love being an expendible slave, practically cannon fodder... and he loved that about himself... by design ... and he knew it that too.... by design and he knew that too... etc.
Like how does someone not be able to break away from that way of thinking once they become mindful of how mindless that is. .... unless the design is so ingrained that its just who they are and that way of thinking just couldn't be broken away from. And he knew that. Lol k im done.
Gorgeously articulated and well argued. I've just finished my first complete play-through of DS9, and I must say I didn't realize your point on his failure at the end. I think I agree with you, ultimately the Founder was wrong and poorly handled the end game, whereas Weyoun had been successful with his methods.
Thank you for your in-depth look into a great character played by Jeffrey Combs, He is a great actor.
It'd be neat to see an update that looked at the (admittedly beta-canon at best) recent Star Trek Online expansion.
Let's just say Weyoun and the female founder play part in the story
He actually showed he was willing to pick up and USE a weapon there, something he never did in the entirety of DS9.
But... sharks don't smile. It's why the Joker couldn't use that one plan.
Those were piranha
And Harley figured it out and he threw her out a window. Ah...love...
Weyoun is awesome. One of the very best parts in DS9 and actors in Jeffery Combs.
One of my favorite characters in the show, he was really good.
Weyoun should have had more screen time, one of my favorite characters along with Dukat and Garak.
I have a question about Odo, if you don't mind:
Do you feel the move to have his character infected with a disease which prevented him from shifting shape was vital to the story, or was it merely a cost cutting measure on the part of the show runners?
If the latter, how skillfully do you think it was it done?
It was definitely an important part of his story. Remember, the loss of his shifting led him to begin to understand how humans feel, and he was overwhelmed by his emotions. Then there's the episode where they found the sick changeling and he tried his best to take care of it, but then the science guy (drawing a blank on his name) started to interfere, eventually leading to two breaking points. He learned that the scientist was right to have made Odod uncomfortable so that he'd change, and he began to lose his resentment for him.
Then at the same time, the changeling restoring Odo's shifting also showed that he had been given a degree of redemption, that the changeling was glad to have had Odo try to help the poor changeling, which these two arcs wind up shaping his character to the point where all of those aspects were built upon later.
It was cost cutting,but it was also a way to give Odo the ability to empathize more with people. You'll notice that he openly talks about shifting from them on our, and explains to characters what it feels like and why.
Mmm. Good points. Well made.
It was really Dukat that ran the war. Weyoun was there two keep him in check for the founders
But Weyoun was closer to running it than Damar (the female changeling increasingly called the shots, but not all the time).
Damn, that was a *great* video essay. Well done!
The guy who played this guy was great - top character, funny, sinister, well played
One of my favourite Star Trek characters. What a beautiful villain.
Overconfidence, the hallmark of the Weyouns
Maybe you should talk to Worf again!
Weyoun....one of my favorite on DS9
I wonder if his curiosity stems from the species alleged origin of being an elevated "sort of marmoset".
Excellent reading into Weyoun.
That cut scene of finding all the junk in the apartment is quite touching, a shame it was cut.
Excellent work. I'll camp out here for a bit. Subscribed, dude.
Weyoun was a devilishly wonderful character and one of my favourites of DS9. His problem was that he deferred to his subordinates far too much which brought him constantly into the Founders crosshairs. He trusted Dukat who lost him DS9, he trusted Damar who lost him Cardassia and trusted the Cardassian Fleet who lost him the war! Last clone or not, he’s lucky he wasn’t whacked by the female Changeling upon his first setback.
2:13 how do we know that Weyoun was responsable of infecting Odo with the changeling disease ? i thought that Section 31 was responsable when Odo was at Starfleet Medical
It's the other disease that makes Odo return to the great link and they turn him into a solid.
Wait whoa... ARCHER ticked off the Breen? When?
The Federation sent the Enterprise DVD box-set to the Breen as part of a cultural exchange. From that point on war was an inevitability.
It's a running joke in SFDebris reviews, starting with "Dear Doctor", in which Archer and Phlox commit genocide through willful inaction, allowing an entire sentient species to die off from a genetic disorder. Chuck's fan theory on this is that this race was eventually saved by another Third-party and was transformed into the Breen, forever holding a deadly grudge against the Federation in general and Archer in particular.
Fascinating.
Or that they found a way of dealing with the disease by living inside of suits. Hence why Weyoun says "their planet is actually quite temperate" when everyone thought it a freezing wasteland. They originally lived in a temperate climate, but the disease forced them to now exist inside the controlled environment of their suit.
Also, the other specie that was supposed to out-evolve them ended up becoming Pakleds.
I loved weyoun, nearly cried when he died...
Which time?
Taras Shevchenko good point, the last one
Edit: and the time when he defected and killed himself made me sad, but not to the verge of tears.
Lets be real here, that painting wasn't that great. She won simply because of who her father was.
I'm inclined to agree, but for all we know the Cardassians sense of aesthetics is just as limited as the Vorta's and they either don't know it or won't admit it
@@danshaw1096 Or they just have different tastes than we do
I can't help thinking that the show was having fun with how confusing the art world can be for most people - that scene was hilarious. Even Kira couldn't say if the painting was "good"
What some cultures value in art might be different than others. What if she used unconventional tools or materials? Just saying arts really hard to put a pin in.
Do you think it would look better if it was painted blue?
Let's go back to this part of the universe for the next star trek show . Far enough away from all that timeline mess we made
one of the moments that really sticks with me is in what we leave behind when the female changling is dying. as weyoun is knelt in front of her theres a close up on his face and one of his contacts is pointing in the wrong direction. its really funny lol
The fact he collected bits of "junk" to examine, and his deep desire to understand art really reminded me of Thrawn. Even more so with some of the first Vorta making mention of the Dominions psychological brief on him and what to expect, Weyoun (and some other Vorta by extension) much like Thrawn sought to understand people but didn't let that understanding dull his objective or the ruthless means of reaching it. There was that scene he offers to make Sisko ruler of the alpha quadrant, and you can tell he already knows the answer but asks anyway just to see Sisko react.
If I had to put a label to it, I'd say Weyoun is the political version of Thrawn, more well versed in the political arena then Thrawn was (which was one of his seeming weaknesses), and holding enough tactical intelligence to see a sound battle plan or a sound military mind under him and to allow those more military minds to do what they do best, which I think was a large part of the Dominion's military success was his letting the Jem'hadar do what they were breed to do while overseeing them enough to keep them on track.
It could also simply be the natural tendency of squirrel-like creatures to collect odd things. You can find several bits of odd stuff in nearly every squirrel nest you investigate. Mice do the same thing.
Weyon was a truly great character.
I've sometimes wondered what the original Weyoun would be like in person. I don't know if it was ever said that he was based of an original person or simply designed from the DNA up to what we saw in the show. Considering the variations in the clones, I've always liked to imagine (if it was so) the original Wyoun to actually be quite personable and less diabolical than his clones. Possible with a hint of self-awareness and empathy and flair- something the Founders deleted out of the clones in their misguided attempt to make him ruthless and cunning. I've sometimes assumed the clone from the episode Trechary, Faith and the Great River to be perhaps closest to the original Weyoun and the clone wasn't completely defective as such, just that in a rush to produce a new Weyoun the personality and morality of the original was passed on, giving us the Weyoun we saw with Odo in this episode who was quite opposite his other clones.
He is likely a less polite and less cultivated weyoun 6(the one who died for odo). Maybe a bit like Rom, as ferengi are also some weird species.
@@jonsnor4313 I don't think Weyoun was entirely informed when he told Odo the story of how the Vorta came to be. I personally think it's a lie and I also think they were enslaved long ago and resisted the Dominion initially with advanced technology, tech the founders probably stole for the Dominion. It's possible the Vorta procreated via cloning as they that advanced in THAT technology...something the founders used to their advantage in genetics to reprogram the Vorta and make the jem'hadar.
What better way to humble and destroy a potentially advanced opponent than to make its entire species from that point onwards believe they were designed to serve the founders. It may be in keeping with their distain for solids. A species that opposed the Dominion and the (Vorta) were solids too.
There's essentially a whole psychology in warfare that can be applied universally in some cases. It could be argued the founders lost the war and almost died because they enslaved and manipulated solids to do their dirty work. For a species that hated solids so much it's ironic they surrounded themselves so integrally with them. Imagine a mirror universe where the founders started something akin to a federation and were kind and benevolent...perhaps a better strategy for keeping their species safe....it worked for the federation against the Dominion...just ally with neighbouring species.
Watching DS9 back in the day, I always disliked Weyoun, Garak and to an extend Quark. I preferred the way Worf and Sisco were handling things.
Watching the show now, being two decades older, I find it to be the opposite way around.
Those three characters are the most fun to me now and I see their storys in a more nuanced light.
Weyoun is a fun character, how he seems to be polite while being vile or changing the topic from an execution to the concept of art. He is the gentleman villain of Star Trek.
Very nice analysis.
Please, please, please read this: The infection is NOT about the time Odo was infected by Section 31. It was the other time that Odo was infected.
From Broken Link:
ODO: Are you saying that you knew I was sick even before we left the station.
FOUNDER: What do you think?
ODO: I think you did this to me. You caused my illness so that I'd be forced to come home.
FOUNDER: As I said, I wish the circumstances of this meeting were different.
Jeffery Combs, in all his parts were All 100% Well Played, he is a Master Actor
🎵 Weyoun head at! 🎵
If any other TV series come along Jeffrey Combs should be offered to play the captain. Between playing Shran and Weyoun as well as Brunt probably one of the more well developed character actors on the show perhaps only exceeded by JG Hertzler.. Would be interesting to see a story arc in that role...
I'll gladly look at Weyoun 👀😁
6:23 More to the point the female founder did not trust the Weyoun's after number six's defection that in my mind was more the reason she promised earth to the Breen.
7:33 My feelings are on this unfilmed scene was Weyoun's primate brain at work collecting things just to have them. More to his abberant behavior that showed up in number six.
There wouldn't be any non related work stories.. He is born in a tank, at the age you see him, updated on current events and who he is, and then shipped off to start doing what weyouns do. His whole life is a story about work the moment he leaves the clone tank.
"Well played, sir."
Weyoun reminds me a little of Kor. Some of the same whimsical and self-deprecating viewpoint.
Marvellous actor
Jeff had a dream job. How many actors can have their character die over and over and over to merely reappear in the next scene or show as he was a clone. He made it up to Weyoun 8 before the final death (as the clone facilities were destroyed). LOL
Dukat I NEEDED THAT!!!
What's the background music for the beginning/
very informative.
Of coarse he is loyal to the founders he was genetically engineered like Jem’he’dar with different traits
So ya wanna own a Weyoun? Get one from the Weyoun Store! Only $9.99 for a Weyoun!!!
Weyoun a HERO
Nice analysis
The female changeling always played the same active role; we merely see her do it much more later on because she is trapped in the Alpha Quadrant.
Great character. But then DS9 had an amazing group of supporting characters that carried a huge amount of the story. Weyoun, Garrak, Dukat, Damar, Nog, Rom, Female Shapshifter, Marrok, none of these character even feature in the opening credits yet are amazingly important in the overall story. That’s why DS9 continues to be the strongest Trek series to date.
I love Weyoun, even more than Dukat.
Probably because they didn't ruin him like they did Dukat.
That certainly helps.
I'm sad no one has mentioned Re-Animator his role in that is amazing to Herbert West is one of his best other than Weyoun.
I’m not sure Weyouns demise was his own fault. The most likely outcome, until near the very end, was a Dominion victory. Switching sides, the most he could have done to prevent his downfall, would have led to an even greater likelihood of defeat. And if he had somehow felt the war was stupid or a mistake, he had to follow the orders he was given.
You should do a episode on the previous test tube clone before Weyoun called Curdson. Or at least one about the differences between Curdson and Weyoun
Thank you!
Excellent
I’m confused why don’t the Breen like earth or captain archer?
Funny .The Changelings , who were the creators of the Dominion and the cause of its warmongering , were also the cause of the defeat of the Dominion .
I never bought him as some strategic mastermind running the war.
Hypothetically, if Odo didn't return to the Founders and died, would the founders consider themselves murderers? Changelings aren't supposed to kill changelings.
Can someone explain why Archer would be responsible for the Been wanting to Take Earth?
Running joke from reviews.
So in this one episode of Enterprise, the NX-01 crew come across two alien races, and one of them is dying. They do all they can to save that race, but when Dr. Phlox discovers that the cause is a genetic defect, Archer abandons the aliens to their fate, stating "we didn't come out here to play God," and clumsily foreshadowing the Prime Directive. Dr. Phlox, and by proxy the show, applauds Archer for basically committing genocide through his inaction. Chuck came up with a jokey fan theory that the aliens would develop into the Breen, and forever hold a grudge against Starfleet in general and Archer in particular.
@troy Ferrington I like Chuck's theory better.
@troy Ferrington the ones that Archer DID help, the ones he practically handed the planet to, became the Pakleds.
Don't get me wrong I liked Weyoun but Gul Dukat was better.
Nothing the Allie’s do or say has any effect upon the Dominion or the Dominion’s Allies. Even when the Dominion is, surprisingly, on the road to defeat, they still don’t (in good faith) negotiate for peace or surrender. Cardassians are open to ‘negotiations’.
Weyoun was a fantastic bad guy.
Mr Jeff Combs' a GR8
Act😉r👌🏾
He haz an EZ going,methodical persona w/his characters🤔
Nov1M2021
Bar🇧🇧bados
He is underrated
If Weyoun was such an Awesome Bad Guy. Why would they kill Him off in such a *Unceremonious* way?
We don't know anything about Weyoun...But we do know quite a bit about a number of Weyoun's clones.