i think most map makers are aware of this, for me this was common knowledge since 2006 but i never played any ladder or interacted with people who do, so maybe thats just knowledge that never escaped the mak maker circle o.o edit: before someone tries to say something like "yeah yeah ofc you did but somehow it magically never was heard somewhere else" -> there is a condition in wc3 to check if a unit has still an active order or has not (this is very useful when making custom hero abilities or alternate building systems), when experimenting with this condition you come across this mechanic pretty easily, thats how we found out.
I knew a lot of random obscure mechanics in WC3 due to map editor too, even though I only played dota. e.g It's common knowledge that WC3 original spells are hardcoded and some atributes can't be changed. Like a lot of custom abilties are just Storm Bolts or Chain Lightning, and that's why Zeus and Luna have mini-stuns on their nukes. If I remember correctly, the minimum stun duration on storm bolt was 0.25 seconds, and if you try to set the stun duration on it to 0 it just becomes permanent lol
@@Sapreme actually you can set the duration to 0.001 second, but before the editor got reworked with reforged you could only set it to 0.01 without add ons. seting it to 0 would result in a permanent stun that is correct. but i have to say here that dota is a really old map so they used a lot of really old tech's back then. since 2010 or so custom abilities usually all used "channel" as the base ability because you could modify it to everything you need without it having any added effects. with the implementation if the reforged editor we got access to stuff in GUI that before was only accessable if you knew how to code in vJass liek changing integer/real/string variables in spells during the game. while reforged broke most maps it added a lot of cool things for map makers. its just sad that its broken and instead of enjoying those features you have to use 80% of your time an deffort working around broken things. thats why i quit map making shortly after reforged release. but for sure you get a LOT of knowledge if you were into map making. sadly i always lacked the skill to use that knowledge in melee games xD
Funny enough, dota2 also uses the same mechanic as well: while playing naga, Lycan, or any other unit/ilu hero, the one that is idle is prioritised for the next action. Of course, this rarely is replicatelble because most units in dota don't have active spells, or you can only have one of them. Chen and Book of the Dead are how I understood this.
I know that for meepo they will only throw the net for the first one in a control group/selection that doesn't have it on cool down but I've never noticed a movement command to change that to which ever one is idle. Though maybe it's just a skill issue for my smooth brain.
@Bagginsess meepo is an exception funny enough: his clones are considered separate heroes. So, each meepo is a separate unit and not the same. Much like Arc Warden tempest double.
While it makes sense mechanically, I feel like it makes things too janky. I'm trying to think of any time I wouldn't want to override an old command with a new one if it's more efficient... Maybe selecting every peon in your base and just asking one of them to make a building, then the one who isn't busy can do it? I don't know.
Let's say you have 6 dragonhawk riders. You issue a command to Shackle a unit, and one starts moving towards an enemy to do so. You issue another command to Shackle a unit, instead of the one that is moving towards the enemy to shackle them canceling that order and replacing it with a new order to shackle the other unit, you get a dragonhawk with a move action or a wait action to do so.
@@kevingriffith6011 no, in sc2 it works literally exactly the same way. The only difference is that move command overriden completely. In sc2 everyone (who isn't completely low elo like below masters) is aware of how it works because this is a crucial mechanic to understand and that you need. The big difference in sc2 is because it is significantly higher pace so the odds of you forgetting to move 4 ravagers you used to throw biles to are virtually zero
@@Kryptnyt that's a good example. I guess the real issue is that it sort of prioritizes move commands over other commands just because of the order you gave the commands in. Whereas with actual tactical commands it makes sense to not override them, but movement - you're probably just going to end up clicking it 4 more times anyway.
So the game tries to find a way to give a command without overriding commands that are not yet complete, if possible. Interesting, if not a bit annoying at the same time.
I like it, that way you can queue extra actions on top of shift actions and if you hold ctrl when in group select with multiple unit types you can combine it and just queue everything up in advance. Then again I play against the AI for fun.
I wonder which one is faster and/or easier, click stop -> use spell -> move; or going : click 1 moving unit -> use spell -> re-move that unit. Id assume the 2nd one dont delay your troops as much, but probably harder to execute in the heat of battle and if its worth that slight extra speed for the troops
We need more of these deep machanics videos ! I’d love to see one with the machanics of the peasants on lumber, when they come back to work after milicia
I used to play a lot of RTS games back in the day(it was all the rage)and when I played Warcraft 3 it immediately felt like on a whole another level and I didn't exactly understand why but now I do
Jesus. It seems so simple, but only once it's explained. Of course in game you're always looking for the closest one to cast. Now we understand exactly why that isn't always the case. Knowledge is power 😀
WC3, daddy of DotA and subsequently League of Legends. WoW was literally a side-project extra campaign that evolved into one of the longest standing MMOs of the last 20 years. Blizzard Entertainment was just different
its frustrating for those of us that have known about this since shift clicking became a thing who still couldnt use them as effectively as grub here was before he discovered this :P
Not really, spells are the only action that gets selectively queued. All other actions are always an override of the current one for all selected units. Cannibalize is a spell.
i used to do wonky builds as a kid one of which was orc with wolf riders, this would happen a lot trying to micro wolf riders kiting away from the enemy, somewhere i intuitively learned that this is what was happening still it kept happening because i was frenetically trying to micro just clicking very close by just to move a little. but i saw it didn't happen if i was clicking on the minimap and full retreating just the further most back would cast a net, so just assumed that while running it would do as i said if any had stopped it would be wonky. but kid me quickly forgot as i thought it was special to wolf riders as it didn't really happen with the other units i was using when i was playing and i really didn't like using spell casters, too much micro, so never made the complete connection.
Thats interesting. I wonder if theres a hidden command-time calculation, that when you click move on far point (i assume thats why u use the minimap) it thinks "the first one to get idle wont get here any time sooner, lets try to find a unit that can cast the spell (with proximity filter/prioritization)".
@@Crustee0 i just used to click the map to retreat home instead of map scrolling because it was so much more of a hassle to do, i was not a good player. it was just what was shown in the video, if they are all walking then the closest one would go do it, if you have them all selected and one is idle/stopped then that one will go do it walking through the entire group to get there.
Are you shift commanding the spell after moving the five witch doctor's in that example? That would certainly force the units to finish the previous command before casting the spell. If you are try not shift commanding the spell
It does make sense, you give them a chain of orders, so the proximity checked only for the witch doctor who's on that step of the journey. In this case the witchdoctor who completese task #1 first will be the first to start task #2.
I wonder if this was fixed in Starcraft 2, and if not, if it will be fixed in Stormgate? Or do you think it should stay? I'm not good enough to judge lol.
So, you control 5 units, and expect them to function as a single unit...and after years of doing this, you have finally learned that they are 5 different units.
Protip: Any time you catch yourself saying, "So..." and then vomiting up a reinterpretation of what was said, you're probably a fool that has wasted your time twisting something into a strawman to make it easier for you to judge or to enhance your petty feelings of righteousness or superiority. It's pathetic and childish. Knock it off.
There are very few toxic people in the WC3 community. It's better to have a few million players worldwide in a competitive and mature atmosphere than a billion people on a pay to win modern game IMHO.
Игры
Love the "Hey I'm free, I could do this! 😀"
the other doctors just looked at each other and went: "as you say Mon"
Said noone ever at my office
@@veilnebula2411good choice mon
wholesome witch doctors on drugs
dam it I watched 3 times just for this and could not spot it ...
stuff like this is SO irrelevant for me on my skill level... yet i absolutely LOVE to learn about these kind of trivia gameplay mechanics!
Warcraft 3, made in 2001 it's mind boggling how this masterpiece has created. From small details of unit programming is insane
The amount of units and sounds in the world builder is second to none one of the biggest games if all times
@@ahmadhasanturk7762wc3 was truly the golden age of RTS worldbuilding
Yes, high degree of perfection.
yeah idk, this is probably happening the same way in all rts that allow for shitqueuing.
Sad to see blizzard now
My APM is low enough so that they arrive all before I plant the ward. Rich people problems !
i think most map makers are aware of this, for me this was common knowledge since 2006 but i never played any ladder or interacted with people who do, so maybe thats just knowledge that never escaped the mak maker circle o.o
edit: before someone tries to say something like "yeah yeah ofc you did but somehow it magically never was heard somewhere else" -> there is a condition in wc3 to check if a unit has still an active order or has not (this is very useful when making custom hero abilities or alternate building systems), when experimenting with this condition you come across this mechanic pretty easily, thats how we found out.
I knew a lot of random obscure mechanics in WC3 due to map editor too, even though I only played dota. e.g It's common knowledge that WC3 original spells are hardcoded and some atributes can't be changed.
Like a lot of custom abilties are just Storm Bolts or Chain Lightning, and that's why Zeus and Luna have mini-stuns on their nukes. If I remember correctly, the minimum stun duration on storm bolt was 0.25 seconds, and if you try to set the stun duration on it to 0 it just becomes permanent lol
@@Sapreme actually you can set the duration to 0.001 second, but before the editor got reworked with reforged you could only set it to 0.01 without add ons. seting it to 0 would result in a permanent stun that is correct. but i have to say here that dota is a really old map so they used a lot of really old tech's back then. since 2010 or so custom abilities usually all used "channel" as the base ability because you could modify it to everything you need without it having any added effects. with the implementation if the reforged editor we got access to stuff in GUI that before was only accessable if you knew how to code in vJass liek changing integer/real/string variables in spells during the game. while reforged broke most maps it added a lot of cool things for map makers. its just sad that its broken and instead of enjoying those features you have to use 80% of your time an deffort working around broken things. thats why i quit map making shortly after reforged release. but for sure you get a LOT of knowledge if you were into map making. sadly i always lacked the skill to use that knowledge in melee games xD
Funny enough, dota2 also uses the same mechanic as well: while playing naga, Lycan, or any other unit/ilu hero, the one that is idle is prioritised for the next action. Of course, this rarely is replicatelble because most units in dota don't have active spells, or you can only have one of them.
Chen and Book of the Dead are how I understood this.
I know that for meepo they will only throw the net for the first one in a control group/selection that doesn't have it on cool down but I've never noticed a movement command to change that to which ever one is idle. Though maybe it's just a skill issue for my smooth brain.
@Bagginsess meepo is an exception funny enough: his clones are considered separate heroes. So, each meepo is a separate unit and not the same. Much like Arc Warden tempest double.
@@parham1023 ah that makes sense.
Dota 2 always seems to have almost the same code as W3 lol
While it makes sense mechanically, I feel like it makes things too janky. I'm trying to think of any time I wouldn't want to override an old command with a new one if it's more efficient... Maybe selecting every peon in your base and just asking one of them to make a building, then the one who isn't busy can do it? I don't know.
exactly i lost many units to this functionality
Let's say you have 6 dragonhawk riders. You issue a command to Shackle a unit, and one starts moving towards an enemy to do so. You issue another command to Shackle a unit, instead of the one that is moving towards the enemy to shackle them canceling that order and replacing it with a new order to shackle the other unit, you get a dragonhawk with a move action or a wait action to do so.
@@Kryptnyt Fair enough. I do think they managed to square that circle in Starcraft 2, as I've not really seen the same issues with caster units there.
@@kevingriffith6011 no, in sc2 it works literally exactly the same way.
The only difference is that move command overriden completely.
In sc2 everyone (who isn't completely low elo like below masters) is aware of how it works because this is a crucial mechanic to understand and that you need.
The big difference in sc2 is because it is significantly higher pace so the odds of you forgetting to move 4 ravagers you used to throw biles to are virtually zero
@@Kryptnyt that's a good example. I guess the real issue is that it sort of prioritizes move commands over other commands just because of the order you gave the commands in. Whereas with actual tactical commands it makes sense to not override them, but movement - you're probably just going to end up clicking it 4 more times anyway.
So the game tries to find a way to give a command without overriding commands that are not yet complete, if possible.
Interesting, if not a bit annoying at the same time.
Exactly. It has ups and downs
I like it, that way you can queue extra actions on top of shift actions and if you hold ctrl when in group select with multiple unit types you can combine it and just queue everything up in advance.
Then again I play against the AI for fun.
My eyes opened like that chick fila girl at the end of the vid
Mind blowing that we are STILL discovering things about this game today, i love WC3
That smile at the end, the pure bliss of understanding 😂
WAIT HOW DID THAT TAKE YOU THAT LONG TO FIGURE THAT OUT?
Its even more impressive that he even noticed it "for many years"
The more you know! I guess if you want to do that you should issue a quick stop command, place the sentry and then reissue the move command
I wonder which one is faster and/or easier, click stop -> use spell -> move; or going : click 1 moving unit -> use spell -> re-move that unit.
Id assume the 2nd one dont delay your troops as much, but probably harder to execute in the heat of battle and if its worth that slight extra speed for the troops
"one thing at a time, boss"
That's kinda the thing that has been going since the "Dune 2" on Sega, iirc
Lol I love the explanation and the curiosity on the subject. I have a bunch of those unanswered questions in my head
We need more of these deep machanics videos ! I’d love to see one with the machanics of the peasants on lumber, when they come back to work after milicia
It took you this long to figure out action queues?
I used to play a lot of RTS games back in the day(it was all the rage)and when I played Warcraft 3 it immediately felt like on a whole another level and I didn't exactly understand why but now I do
These little things sometimes decide whether you win or loose a fight
This guy sounds suspisciously Dutch
RTSs have a lot of design decisions that may seem small but sometime can make or break the game feel
I love learning these reverse engineering things
Lol i didn't know that ... All this years 🤯
AH! I always knew to keep my casters in move to provide dispel in best way, but had no idea this was the rule!
Jesus. It seems so simple, but only once it's explained. Of course in game you're always looking for the closest one to cast. Now we understand exactly why that isn't always the case. Knowledge is power 😀
wait ... took him his entire carreer trying to understand that? i thoght it was super obvious and i dont even play that game
wow, I have experienced this, too.
WC3, daddy of DotA and subsequently League of Legends. WoW was literally a side-project extra campaign that evolved into one of the longest standing MMOs of the last 20 years. Blizzard Entertainment was just different
grew up watching grubby winning all the titles. and am so happy to know that there is something I have known for years that he doesn't
It's actually a very clean and optimized code respect to all the OGs dev
how can grubby not figure this out alone..u too smart for this lol
yeah, that makes sense.
I noticed this even back in RoC era!
U do be smorc, my mon
Isn't it obvious?
That explains everything.
It is logical.
Grubby expert ! scientist
Wc3 is still the best rts and its over 20 years old. It's baffling that nobody has created a modern rival.
Only a wc3 nerd could love this video! Great insight!
its frustrating for those of us that have known about this since shift clicking became a thing who still couldnt use them as effectively as grub here was before he discovered this :P
Pretty fascinating!
A bit obvious I think
Not really, spells are the only action that gets selectively queued.
All other actions are always an override of the current one for all selected units.
Cannibalize is a spell.
i used to do wonky builds as a kid one of which was orc with wolf riders, this would happen a lot trying to micro wolf riders kiting away from the enemy, somewhere i intuitively learned that this is what was happening still it kept happening because i was frenetically trying to micro just clicking very close by just to move a little.
but i saw it didn't happen if i was clicking on the minimap and full retreating just the further most back would cast a net, so just assumed that while running it would do as i said if any had stopped it would be wonky.
but kid me quickly forgot as i thought it was special to wolf riders as it didn't really happen with the other units i was using when i was playing and i really didn't like using spell casters, too much micro, so never made the complete connection.
Thats interesting. I wonder if theres a hidden command-time calculation, that when you click move on far point (i assume thats why u use the minimap) it thinks "the first one to get idle wont get here any time sooner, lets try to find a unit that can cast the spell (with proximity filter/prioritization)".
@@Crustee0 i just used to click the map to retreat home instead of map scrolling because it was so much more of a hassle to do, i was not a good player.
it was just what was shown in the video, if they are all walking then the closest one would go do it, if you have them all selected and one is idle/stopped then that one will go do it walking through the entire group to get there.
Seems legit
When the design decision is made by a programmer and not a designer
DAT BE GOOD CHOICE MAN! 👍
RTZ BKB situation
Are you shift commanding the spell after moving the five witch doctor's in that example? That would certainly force the units to finish the previous command before casting the spell. If you are try not shift commanding the spell
No shifts at all. Lot of commenters think I held shift here, when I didn't. It's some deeper OG coding magic by Blizz
@@FollowGrubby I figured you weren't but had to ask
Wait......it took you that long to figure that out? I don't even play warcraft and I coulda told you that.
Wow. Like 20 years late but wow
It does make sense, you give them a chain of orders, so the proximity checked only for the witch doctor who's on that step of the journey.
In this case the witchdoctor who completese task #1 first will be the first to start task #2.
When tier list ?
Makes sense 🤷
Long story short: it’s an engine that was made 25 years ago
I wonder if this was fixed in Starcraft 2, and if not, if it will be fixed in Stormgate? Or do you think it should stay? I'm not good enough to judge lol.
Throughout your carreer ?
How’s this work in Warcraft 2 ? :p
Yeah! :))
Solution is to not move your units
Just press the S or stop button for a split second, problem solved.
Ye its hard to be dumb
So… keep your units moving? 😂
Hindi na kasya yung ugok ni lemer
now explain the pathing issues
wow
Hey, I'm free, I could watch this video game instructional video of a game that I last played 15-20 years ago
there is no way you didn't key onto this for like 20 years bro
Soundw like how it was scripted. Software is like building somthing fround the ground up.
Thought Grubby was a pro. Not knowing 20 year old mechanic is kinda mehh.
Вполне логично.
cool
I thought everyone knew that
it's not. you've gotten the wrong logic.
Weird how you can play a game for most of your life but still miss such a simple detail lol
For people who don’t do it themselves everything is simple
@@mozhou8935 Maybe I should become a pro then
🤷
Hello, please dont refer to viewers as twitch chat, not everyone watching on twitch is typing on chat
Right... but it's the ones that problem solved with me, by typing in chat, to help me find the reason!
So, you control 5 units, and expect them to function as a single unit...and after years of doing this, you have finally learned that they are 5 different units.
Protip: Any time you catch yourself saying, "So..." and then vomiting up a reinterpretation of what was said, you're probably a fool that has wasted your time twisting something into a strawman to make it easier for you to judge or to enhance your petty feelings of righteousness or superiority.
It's pathetic and childish. Knock it off.
@NiteSaiya That makes sense, thats an easy thing to change, thank-you.
You needed others to tell you to figure it out?? 😂
this is trash programming
Wow… nobody cares. Games ancient and nobody playes it anymore
There are very few toxic people in the WC3 community. It's better to have a few million players worldwide in a competitive and mature atmosphere than a billion people on a pay to win modern game IMHO.
Stick to fortnite dancing for incels
Not ancient ,but legend