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Adam or whomever may read this. Are you giving away prizes of some sort or another. I just received a notation on this stream about some kind of thing - is this on the level or have I been hacked.
Frankie Ballard Murdered Sam Howes with the phrase "Pennies Make Dimes, Dimes make Dollars" inscribed in a Copper Ring made by Adam Savage - Savage Adam - Samuel J Howes
Hats off to Dieter for being honest and not taking advantage of young you, Adam. Thank you to him for helping to form present you and being an example for the rest of us.
It can simply be good business, especially at a smaller scale. If you want the thing done right and on time, letting someone badly lowball himself can come around and bite you in the ass. I've seen multiple home construction jobs go south because the framers didn't pay attention to the plan and badly underbid the job, for example.
The cool thing about that, is that Dieter sacrificed a short term gain, for a longer term benefit. If you have a reputation for ripping people off, it suddenly becomes much harder to get people to do the work, and those that will are going to overcharge every chance they get. A reputation takes a lifetime to build, and only seconds to destroy.
I have to admit that I was initially confused with "In the beginning of my MODELING career". Of course I immediately formed a mental picture of Adam doing a Zoolander walk at a fashion show.
Same, lol. Now I just want to be a modeler so I can say I've had a modeling career. I already wanted to be a modeler because I love it, but now my reasoning changed.
When I was in college I made a basic website for an artist friend of mine. I had no idea what to charge him so I said $50. The next day he wrote me a check for $500. He said his father told him that was the absolute minimum a basic website should cost. It was a valuable lesson not to undervalue your work.
I’m a freelance copywriter who’s just starting, and I recently renegotiated my pay with one of my clients and he actively told me what I was asking for wasn’t enough and told me he was going to pay me more - it was definitely a valuable experience, and I’m very grateful to have had it.
I had the same thing happen more than once when I was starting out and it really does make such an impact. When you're not experienced it can be hard to convince yourself that your time and skills are worth as much as they are. Glad you got that lesson early on!
I was told once, and this was in regards to carpentry but I've found it applies to every field I've worked in, "if you aren't getting turned down on 50% of your bids then you're not charging enough."
I had a mentor give me this advice starting off as a freelance podcast editor. Was sub-contracting me a job, asked what I could do it for, and told me no way, you're worth more than that. Not just grateful for the extra money but for the confidence that gave me in asking rates from other clients.
How is the copy writing field? I have my English degree but have yet to use it. Copywriting keeps popping up as a potential career path for me but I have no experience in that field.
The hard part is people find it really easy to put a dollar value on physical things, but place no value on your time or expertise. When I was commission painting (tabletop minis), I lost count of the number of times I heard "You want how much? For a bit of paint? You must be crazy!" But... you're not paying me for a bit of paint. You're paying me for 30 hours of my time and knowledge, expertise and a skill set that you don't have. Your time and skills have value. Never forget to factor that in.
I always found it useful to keep a few examples... When you can stand something in front of them and see their eyes widen and the mystified expression cross their face, you KNOW you've reached someone with the understanding that this isn't just shaking a rattle-can and blasting some colors onto something... or slapping a few shades and tones into a cheap doll for a half-assed decoration... My favorite was when some idiot would argue, "But I can get stuff like that at the Dollar Store."... Like "Bucket o' Soldiers"? Yeah, if you want cheap plastic CRAP, go to China. They've got plenty of it. You can choke on it. If you want something unique, hand crafted and painted... You want it done by someone who gives a sh*t, then you come to ME... AND you pay MY price for it. ;o)
I once knew a guy who would have put it like this: "If it's just a bit of paint then you're certainly free to do it yourself." Not surprisingly, this is where the conversation would invariably turn to a sheepish client having to admit that they couldn't.
exactly. the top emergency department doctors get paid the big bucks because they have the experience and acumen to quickly tell someone that they DON’T need treatment and can go home (often to the dismay of the patients who were expecting all these tests and scans)
Truth be told and this is the only thing I feel (only a small part If the person, group, companies obstacle is time); and this works as well when your competitors are make something similar in their business --- what is the difference of the quality you can do vs me. I've seen these two things play out where one guy makes similar things but charges more, and I have to say to myself I have to get better. (The stuff some guys can make is one of a kind and shouldn't be treated like a commodity). That's the second part are you a commodity (not the object) can you find 100 people in your area making the same thing or is their one of you - and so a guy can say I'm going to supply you with this, or help you out, or give you business, ect ect you hear everything and you don't bite on it. The old cliches are if you do great work your never out of work. On the other side, if I am so cheap not willing to pay how bad of a product will I get, and then you value time, money, ect.
Some of the best advice I ever got was: Don’t be too good at the job you don’t want. Kind of the total opposite of your story, but balance and all that.
@@martinh2783 *not a good thing to become too comfortable doing something dull that you are unwilling to risk something else and possibly fail but lead to a much better opportunity and a new skill set that eventually becomes your greatest joy*
@@scottmantooth8785 I enjoyed the journey. I was specializing in radio communication in the army. I had a lot of fun learning and teaching but at the end there was only excel and administration.
This is true in a lot of areas. I've learned that, if you want to advance out of a low-tier job but you're really good at it, management will NEVER let you leave.
The idea of saying "No, that's not enough, the going rate is $XXX so I'm going to pay you that" is absolutely the correct course of action when someone is clearly not charging enough for their work. You'll find this A LOT among artists online, and it's why I tip HEAVILY whenever I commission artwork. I also encourage said artists to regularly increase their rates because they absolutely are not paying themselves enough.
I saw something similar a couple of years ago when I attended a show with some vendors selling stuff they had made. I bought one item and felt the asking price was far too cheap for what it was and paid them about 25% more than they had it priced at. I basically said, "you're selling these for too little. Keep the change."
Creative endeavors like this can be hard for people to appropriately appraise, since sometimes people look at how long it takes the person to "do the job" without considering how much time and effort and resources it took to get into the position you could do the work in the first place. Undercutting the market hurts everyone in the long run, even if done "for a friend." "That which we obtain too easily, we esteem too lightly." - Thomas Paine
I always do this with my art commissions. I'll usually tip 50 percent of what the actual commission cost, more if I really, really like it. There was one guy charging 15 for sketches and was flabbergasted when I sent over 50 from being mad impressed
Also applies to work for friends. Either it's just a gift for a friend or it's the full price. Of course, there's nothing wrong with trading work or bartering with someone you trust.
@@matthewellisor5835 Right. I've had friends start bands and whatnot. They often think it's reasonable to gift their wares. I have to remind them "No, I want to pay. If anyone SHOULD be supporting you, it should be your friends."
@@matthewellisor5835 I do work for friends and family on a barter basis. I did a website for a friend's car washing/valeting company on the basis of getting free car washes.
I have had people try to get websites worth thousands in labor alone for free on the excuse that we were "friends" (often for all of 10 minutes). I always refused, but I was blessed with good people around me to warn me off of that. And the frustrating part is that those who do give away free work to false friends or "exposure" companies hurt the market for everyone. The cretins do this because they know they can. I feel so sorry for artists who get it so much worse. I used to do renders on DA and was frequently hit up by "idea" people who thought their having an idea was as valuable as the work required to make it. The professional artists I knew were getting it so much worse too. Constantly being pushed by high budget companies to work for free, by "fans" to draw things free, and horribly underselling their time when they did freelance work. One I commissioned when she was in a bind financially and was selling commission work was only getting about $30/hr or less despite needing expensive equipment and being an alum of some high profile game companies. As you said, barter is fine, but it needs to also be reasonable. "I'll help clean your garage for a 3 month web project" ain't it.
It only ever exposes you to people that also want work for cheap or free. Never worthwhile unless you are negotiating for real advertising space to run whatever you like.
Photographer I apprenticed with did his quotes based on the flinch test. When he gave the estimate, if the client did not flinch, he would say "but of course XX and YY is an additional charge" but if the client did flinch, he would say "Realize this is a good deal since I will throw in XX and YY inclusive"
As a software engineer, hearing that question I immediately thought of work estimates as well 😂 I remember after putting together my first estimate, my boss doubled what I had. I felt a little offended, but he ended up being right. After a few years, I'm at the point where I try my hardest to overestimate. Maybe you don't win every bid, but for the sake of everyone's sanity, it's better when the work is expected to be done early. I've also learned to stop estimating "the work", and instead estimate "the process".
I never understood the difference between "the work" and "the process" until you framed it that way along with what Adam explained. Thanks, this is great advice.
@@JakeCWolf yeah, it's funny how different fields overlap. To put "process" more concretely - I previously would think about what the end result code would look like, and then think how long it would take to write. The reality is nobody gets code right on the first try or think of every possibility. Often there might be an "R&D" period before you start the work. And then after I "think" I'm done, there's accessibility, browser, internal team, and then client testing. So a lot of processes to get to the end result!
Also a software engineer. My boss will ask me how long something will take and I'll say a week and he'll say great and tell the client two weeks. In my experience a client will almost never fuss if you say one week vs two weeks, but if you do say one week and it takes two they will. Even if most of the time it does get done in one week, there is no reason not to give yourself the buffer.
I do research and troubleshooting bugs and I always shoot for two to three times the amount of hours required. Why because the code might be solid but trying to make heads or tails of it can be nuts.
I remember building an exhibition stand for a company called 'Fuel Boss'. It was a nightmare! I was out of my comfort zone (I was used to painting shop signs and had some woodwork under my belt), using materials with which I was not familiar. I built it at home as a 'knock-down' design so it could be dismantled and easily transported. It comprised not only the signage and display stand but also the shell. Only to find that the shell was already provided and I had to use that. So I had to juggle everything around to accommodate this existing shell (which did not fit any of the measurements for the one I had built). I got it done and they were happy. It came to the time when Shirley (the woman from Fuel Boss) said "How much do I owe you?". I knew exactly how much it had all cost but it was a much higher figure than I had ever charged for anything before and I needed time to pluck up the courage to give her the quote... so I said "I'll just go and work it out". Eventually, I took a deep breath and quoted the figure. You know by the reaction when you've quoted a much lower figure than the client was expecting. This was clear. She was delighted... she even bought me a bottle of wine to compensate for the "inconvenience" of having to build a shell and then having to juggle everything else to fit into this existing shell. They got a great deal and I got a week's worth of headaches and a bottle of wine. Lesson learned.
the whole "but you'll get your leg in with this company" (that isn't offering nearly enough now, and probably ever) thing is the best advice I ever got when I started freelancing. like, okay, yeah, even if they handed you all the work in the world - is it worth doing? if you ask them for fair value later, will they balk? or are you just trapped working for too little forever because that's the rate and precedent now permanently set
I have a neighbour a bit like Deeter. I do a small amount of drone photography on the side and one day he asked me to take some photos so he could update the land registry for some properties he had altered. It wasn't anything difficult and took half an hour so i thought that £20 might be pushing it. (I earn around £10 per hour on my normal job). Once it was done, he wouldn't let me walk away with less than £70 as that was the value i had provided for him.
"The value you had provided him". Great sentance. I really need to take that to heart, and change the way I do things. I dabble in everything, love to learn new skills. But I also don't trust in my self enough to ask for money. So when ever people ask me for help. Be it computer repair, painting, sowing, or what ever. I never ask for money. And most people don't offer any compensation apart from the price of materials. They see my help as a given, and I don't feel my time and effort is valued.
Adam, I work with a small after-school Theatre program at my school (middle school), and a few years ago one of my students offered to film two of our shows and edit them together into a full-length video. This is something I'd done for our previous shows, but this student is such a talented editor and filmmaker, I was stoked to turn it over to him. My partners in the program offered to pay him $50 for his time, when I usually charged a few hundred for the many hours of work it took. The ONLY difference between the two of us was age, and I put my foot down. I did not win that argument, and I still get steamed about it. I had a convo with the student to make sure he knew that it was important to value his work in the future, but still... How do you convince other adults that when a child is just as skilled and talented as an adult, their time and effort should be rewarded appropriately?
I think it's because children on average have much more time and way less responsibility, their time is less valuable even if their skills are. Not that this justifies the payment. But that's probably what goes through the heads of people relying on the labour of young people.
I’m a technician for Jaguar and Land Rover. When I first started I would under sell my work thinking 8hours to do that job was robbing the customer. A few years now and my mindset has changed the cost of tools and my knowledge plus time is absolutely worth whatever hours I sell a repair for.
As a carpenter in my first year of self employed business, I still question if how much I charge for my time is too low as I don’t want to overcharge or take advantage of people in fear of scaring off potential work. This advice has been extremely helpful and made me feel like I’m worth more than I realise. Thank you Adam.
as a freelance artist/animator, I undercharge a LOT. There have been a few projects where I asked for more than I thought the project was worth and they didn't hesitate in taking the offer cuz they thought it was cheap. A few times I got offered more than I asked and it really changes your perspective.
Cannot thank you enough for saying the actual numbers. People shy away from talking about money, but it's so important to communicate that stuff especially when giving advice. Thanks!
It was great to hear your story, thank you for sharing. As a design consultant, I realized very quickly why I was loosing money or breaking even despite charging what I thought was a fair price to my clients. I thought I was smart, accounting for the time, material and labor costs, but what I failed to consider was the spaces between: The repeated 20 mile round trips to pick up the materials, the subscription costs for the programs I used, my insurance bills, the phone bill and internet bills that allowed me to connect with the clients dependably, the three square meals I ate each day while working, etc. Once I factored in those components in real time, man did my cost change! I started to see the value of "my time" in a much realer sense. Whether we are on the job or not, we will always have bills and daily cost-of-living expenses that should be factored into our time. Hope this helps others with pricing their work.
I phrase it as: wisdom cannot be taught, only learned. However, if someone has the right foundation of experiences, you can share distilled insight to catalyze revelations. But in general the best way I've found to share wisdom is to be a good mentor. Be a guide to others, walk them down the path you know will lead to the wisdom you wish to share. Then, when they are ready, you can share something truly transformative. Wisdom and insight are amazing gifts to share. To both receive and especially to give.
This is excellent advice! Two stories. I took auto shop in high school. The teacher used to tell us stories of the days he worked as a mechanic and an tow truck driver. He told us that if his shop didn't want a difficult job, they would over bid the price in hopes that another shop would get it. That way, if they ended up getting the job, it would be worth it. A friend of mine is a copper artist, makes fountains and other art pieces. One of his early jobs was for a relative, and he gave a really low price to make this fountain. He lost money on the job, like a couple hundred. It was a learning experience, so he's not salty about it, but he could have and should have charged more. So, yeah, don't sell yourself short.
This is super important for every career. People rip each other off so bad, and it actively hurts society. Takes advantage of young and financially precarious people. We have so many highly skilled but broke people, because skills mean nothing in a world built by thrives. You’ll be working hard but still going hungry. I’m trying to introduce the practice you describe in my corner of the world too. Performing artists need to be paid wayyyyyyyy more.
Breaking even. I remember my Dad designed some stained glass windows. The guy he designed for, a former student, drastically underbid the work. Dad just “oversaw” the artisans who actually crafted the windows. Just 3. But at 30’ by 40’ these are massive walls of a church. Dad always said he made a nickel an hour. Beautiful interpretations of those artists turning Dads original art into a dream. It will outlive us all. He always told a student, who looked back at a piece they had done in their first class, as they would say “oh wow look how bad that is!” His response was a question; “was that the best that you could do then?” “Yes” “So, that was an honest piece of art”
One of my mentors gave all of his students the advice that was essentially the following: "Call your local union trades people (plumbers, electricians, etc.) and ask what their hourly rate is, and start there." Currently my hourly rate is $125, and will be increasing to $150 in the summer. And materials will be added on as the idea is finalized. One thing that I have also added is a 50% nonrefundable deposit so that I don't lose any money.
This came at the right time for me. I just started offering my services repairing and restoring vintage electric pianos and I’ve really struggled with what to charge. I know my local shops sell these pianos for 5-6k and charge $100 an hour but that feels absurd to me when I’m spending 20 hours to really dial it in but I’m settling into being confident with pricing.
This video rings profoundly true. My mentor in fab & custom museum mount making told me in 2003 to charge $80 an hour for custom art related metalwork. I scoffed & billed $40 an hour (because I was working out of my parents garage & hadn't done a lot)... Cut to 20 years later, though I've secured regular & constant employment, It's been tricky to raise my hourly rate. I'm now at $60 an hour shop rate, me in my shop, 1 man band.. Not even keeping up with inflation over the years. But you tell yourself its a sacrifice to retain clients or get exposure or whatever... Bill your work at market rate from the beginning.
One that got me scratching my head early on was the cost of expedited shipping. Turns out if 40+ people are waiting on one part to arrive, spending a few thousand dollars to buy that part a couple of seats on a private jet might make a lot of sense.
Happens in fabrication of wafer fabs. 5k each way to Korea from the US. part gets fixed overnight and is back by the morning. Simply because the part is such a long lead item it’s cheaper to do that then to put the fab build on hold.
I work at a factory. When the multi million dollar machine is broken, the assembly line is slowed down, and an employee is just sitting there babysitting the machine, it suddenly looks cheap to overnight something a repair part. On the other hand...why didn't we have a commonly failed part on hand as a spare when we already knew it was a common wear item?
I worked in airfield logistics for the Army, and this is so true. I worked in a particularly smart aviation unit, and if we didn't have a part and it was causing a work stoppage, or if there was a scheduled flight that week for the bird in question, we'd just get it from another location at our regiment and overnight it or grab it from one of the other battalions on post, or cox the giant wearhouse on post to give us someone else's order of the same thing, or drive 3 hours to the nearest aviation post and get it there. It was far better than missing the flight and having dudes wait around for days, everyone fall behind on work and training. We always flew more in a week than the other battalions on the airfield did in a month, and we were awarded more funding for being the best.
It’s nice to hear that you and other people have a realistic, moral and ethical stance on value of work. As a video producer and editor of 20 years I never had anyone do that for me. In fact, I’d regularly have people, especially marketing companies, tell me it was a good chance for more work and to get a foot in the door. I eventually came to the realization that I didn’t want to work with people like that and I had way too much experience to deal with those types of people. So thanks for being who you are because trust and respect goes both ways. You’re amazing.
I had a girlfriend that did video editing and was an intern somewhere strait out of school. I think it was at least paid but it was also supposed to turn into a full time position but that was a bunch of bovine feces. They didn't want to pay a full timer when they could keep getting cheap interns. Good for you knowing what your time is worth
A lot more people need to watch this, because the prices I see makers ask for one-off items on Etsy are often shockingly low, items that have to take a week to make selling for $60. The marketplace by its nature pushes bargains to the top I’m sure, but that is seriously harming makers who want to switch to doing it full time.
Etsy sellers make me so mad. I crochet, so I thought I could make a few extra bucks by selling hats or blankets on Etsy. Everyone undercharges there. They'll sell a hat for $20, and I know that hat took 2 hours to make, plus the cost of yarn, so they're selling their time for maybe $7/hour. You can't make a living doing that. It's insulting. And then no one else can compete with that price. A hat I might crochet would be worth at least $50 by time and yarn cost. I can't compete with people willing to devalue themselves like that. I'd rather donate my time making hats and blankets (which I do).
@@julietardos5044 machine knitting and sweatshops has made the general market have too unreasonable expectations. They're mentally going "i can buy a blanket at wallmart for 20 dollars, 600 is insane" when 600 can even be vastly lowballing it considering the amount of work hours and the quality of the materials. Which is why selling quality textile crafts to the general public doesn't work, they're too ignorant and don't understand the quality differences in yarns, textiles, and techniques. Even plushie makers get this problem. Which is why usually crafters like this either have to find a good niche market that can properly appreciate them, or they only do it as a hobby and labour of love for friends and family that do understand the quality and the amount of work.
@@Call-me-Al Yep. Totally. A knitter friend of mind recently asked me to crochet her a hat (a particular hat that I was wearing), and I was happy to do it because I know that she knows what goes into making a hat. I'd never do it for someone who doesn't respect my time or experience.
A lot of Etsy stuff these days is made in places with very low pay. And I doubt Etsy is verifying stuff that says it's "handmade" actually is. A place that sells elaborate sweaters for $70 each in 8 different sizes? I'm sure there's a machine involved or people being paid $1/hour.
@@sholiday8739 that was totally my suspicions, that a lot of these “handmade” US sellers are actually flipping Chinese made products with a few cosmetic changes.
I had no idea you were one of the model makers for Micro Machines. You are absolutely right about the "exposure" not being real. I know some rare jobs do give exposure, but that's a lottery ticket at best and no one should exploit other people's lack of access like those who "pay" in "exposure" do.
One of the best videos ever! I was hired once to fix some code and after a few days, I found the line of code that had the bug and customer refused to pay me for the 20 hours worth of work because it was just a simple one-line change. I learned to estimate up front and get paid up front first after that.
my grandfather (dads dad) had an automotive shop which my uncles and dad worked at. my grandad once told a 5 or 6 year old me, charge 3x the cost of the part and add in the labor. he also said you can come down on the part but you cant come down on the labor. its served me well in my adult life.
This is so true. What’s kind of frightening is you can go years before you realize you are charging too little. An old man once told me, you’re not charging enough unless they wince. If they boil in rage that’s a good price too as long as you can calm them down. Of course some strategies are riskier than others.
A mentor of mine told me early in my career when I was working my arse off to feed, cloth and house my family: “Kid, you can make more money, you can’t make more time. Spend your money and time with family and friends while you can. The time will run out before the money”. Truth. 🙏🏻😎
As a physician there is something I have told several patients about complex medical or physiologic issues. I tell them "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you." I say it in the most sincere possible way because for me it took well over a decade of dedicated schooling and study to even begin to understand what I do...and I continue every day to learn more. The same goes for electricians, mechanics, plumbers, artisans, etc. To laypeople there are things that seem easy to the person doing something but that's only because of the years dedicated to making it look easy.
As a struggling artist (and am starting on sculpture) THIS is so helpful because it is SO difficult to make people understand what they are ACTUALLY paying for that many just walk away. 😓
Being a freelance motorcycle mechanic I am nodding my head through this whole video. Charging your worth for the marketable skill you have can be very tough especially as an agreeable person.
I work in the software industry and estimating jobs is one of the most difficult aspects of my work. You are spot on that your estimate must always be significantly higher than the actual cost of the time to do the job. It is not until you have significant experience under your belt until you truly appreciate all the little hidden costs of doing a job that must be accounted for in order to actually turn a profit.
I had a coworker tell something that I interpreted as "Make yourself invaluable" when I was a new hire because they heard I wasn't a great fit with the team initially. I took it to heart and got on really well with the team for and it was great. Years later I found out that they meant what they said disparagingly and weren't trying to help but they are such a great person that I didn't realize it at the time.
"Time + material + 20%" is the formula that I use for welding that I do out of my garage. Carlos Castaneda is a name that I haven't heard in .. a decade or longer. Thanks 👍.
I've got experience with the opposite: advice many people give, but is terrible. When I went into the Army many old-timers told me, "Never volunteer for anything!" That sounded stupid, so I did the opposite and volunteered for absolutely EVERYTHING. I got to do a lot of random cool, fun things that I would have missed out on if I didn't raise my hand. My best stories and memories were from training programs and work details I volunteered for to get out of cleaning an already-clean barracks or changing the oil on a truck that saw 2,000 miles a year.
The market is ruthless, so you gotta be ruthless back. You gotta charge as high as they can pay. Even if you are brand new. You are basically doing the same work that a veteran would be doing. I'm glad you got some honest people in the beginning of your career, that's super lucky.
At one of my jobs (industrial screenprinter) the owner had a sheet that would follow every job. It had a breakdown of every cost related to the job and at the end the costs were tallied up and then divided by .7. We could compare the costs and even as production employees we knew if a job earned money. It was a good education in being aware of the way expenses build up and in not being embarrassed about charging a reasonable price.
I worked at a Chic-Fil-A where the operator did the same thing. Every employee was aware of the cost of everything that went into a meal, including the ingredients, straws, napkins, sauces, and the bag, as well as the hidden costs like utilities and insurance. We were careful with resources which made the store more profitable, which led to raises and happier employees.
Best advice I ever got was, "Don't sell yourself short, know your worth.". As a independent plumber/engineer that always enters the back of my mind when bidding/billing a job. I'm reasonable but my time is extremely precious.
This goes beyond makers, I was one of the very first customers of a break out pair of sparkies (they've just left other companies and formed their own), they didn't even even have business cards yet. They absolutely both underestimated the size of the job and the value of the work, quoting me 200 to install conduite,, wire up the carport for lights and add a power point under the board all controlled by a 4 channel remote inside the meter box. It was twice as much work as they'd estimated and I'd already decided I was going to add $40 per hour so when I paid them their $200 I said "that's your quote" dumped another $350 in their hands and said "that's the value of your work taking into account the extra time"
Love your point about relative availability of resources… specifically time. It is easy to think you can take a risk on something and make up for it with time when you think the price makes for a decent days wage. When you combine that with not incorporating your TOTAL cost (rent, capital, consumables, insurance, etc… in addition to time and materials) you wind up doubly screwed. Another thing…. Just because you work out of your home garage or basement, doesn’t mean those resources are free. Nor does it mean you shouldn’t build them into your cost & pricing. By NOT including them you undercut the pros who do understand the true costs and you drive down the market for everyone. Everybody loses.
The best advice a coworker gave me is when applying for a new job don’t take it unless the company has benefits and a break room. If you company does not they don’t care about you at all so find a new job quick!
It’s hard not to undervalue yourself at the beginning when you have that idea in your head “if I don’t accept it, they’ll find someone better” or anything else, that’s why it’s so true that you learn through the process. Your value will shine in the right place and it will be noticed by the right people and you will learn both of those things through the process. I’m still getting better at all of this and I’ll definitely keep working on it. Thanks for the video!
7:35 - Don Juan - A Yaqui Way Of Knowledge! These lessons and these books were fundamental to forming my own way of looking at the world. The Four Enemies of a Man of Knowledge keep becoming more and more relevant over time.
The person is not only paying for all of the costs associated with the building or making of the project but also for all of the essentials that the model-maker has to factor in (in order to be at a position where they can successfully make that for their customer)...also much appreciation for Dieter for being honest with Adam so early on! Many beginners in any sort of careers face this issue when starting out as a fresher and many companies and bosses and exploit beginners like that...and then the freshers can't figure out exactly why they are burning out.
I'm a Artist and has had a few custom works here and there for customers and I have ALWAYS struggled with this. THIS video has been such a big eye opener! Thank You so much Adam Savage!!!
“If you’re good at something, never do it for free.” -Heath Ledger’s Joker “If you’re good at something, never let somebody undercut your self-esteem, your work and your time.” -a summary of Adam Savage’s story 👏🏼❤️
I don't know if Adam will read this but I can't say how thankful I am for these videos. I'm 23 starting to work in the small film industry of my country, The Dominican Republic. I'm currently getting exponencially bigger jobs each time and things are going so fast, most of the times I have no idea how much to charge and it's really confusing. Hearing a role model like Adam saying it's a normal thing and sharing his personal experience is just a valuable gift. Thank you for hanging out with us Adam, it means a lot.
Best career advice i ever got was to "do what you say and say what you do." If you promise something, you'd better deliver. And you should NEVER promise what you aren't sure you can deliver on that promise. So be honest with your customers, let them know up front what you are capable of, and what they can expect from you. This works for every job and every career. Hell, it's just good life advice.
Ah, that hit the spot! I just started a business in the creative industry and as Adam said: The MOST difficult task was how much to charge. What is my work worth? In my country it is even FORBIDDEN by law to ask other business owners how much they charge, if they don't publish their prices themselves. It is VERY difficult to get prices of other producers and a reference to start calculating your prices. And there are so many customers that are ice-cold business men that just nod at your low prices and would NEVER tell you that you're to cheap...
my first real job, after a short interview to make sure I could do what I said I could (3d artist with a portfolio) I quoted my out of school job rate plus... what thought was a generous raise... the owner of the shop who was going to hire me paused and said to me "we dont really pay our artists that little" .... still one of my favorite people to work for to this day
Adam you are so right about costing jobs. I've been the chief design estimator for the company I've worked for several decades, and even I am surprised sometimes at how much some things cost when I work up the numbers for our customers. But you have to understand that you are in the business to make money not loose money.
My best friend's wife is a graphic designer / freelance artist. We had to convince her over multiple days of conversations that she was not asking nearly enough for the freelance job she'd been planning on bidding. She eventually tripled her rate and they said "sure". She just didn't know what the market was willing to bear because she didn't have the confidence to ask for the moon.
I'm glad you answered this question. I'm new into woodworking. This has given me a better understanding of the business side of it. It doesn't matter what your product is.
It seems to me the one thing people always forget to charge for or seriously undervalue is their time. You have specialized skills and education, you're skilled labor and your time is valuable, charge for it. Don't worry about ripping someone off, that's you devaluing yourself and your skills, you need to get over that.
I learn best when there is a lot of data to learn. And so when you spent that whole time to explain that one little concept, it actually has wayyyyyy more value than you might think. Because now anything related to the little concept also has other concepts from the story that can support it and allow me to build a more robust and practical mindset. Thank you!
This resonates with me so much. Struggled to price my pieces and work all my life, and still battle with the need to people please. Currently wrapping up two projects that took up all my December leave, and don't even make a profit. Really sucks the joy out of the process. Thank you for sharing!
Thank you so much for this video Adam. I’ve been in the same job for 5 years and I really want to change it, apply myself better and realise my true worth in something more challenging.
When starting out, get quotes from an established competitor to gauge your own quotes. Do not undercut them by 20+%. Go under 5-15% max depending on the scale of the work.
There's an animator. She got paid like two hundred bucks and it was some huge animation. The contract was unfair to her as well because she couldn't even tell people she did it. The sad reality is that people really do abuse people starting out in their careers. I am grateful that you're sharing this info out into the world.
That Carlos Castaneda reference came from nowhere and I can't express how happy that made me. I would have never guessed that he was among the authors that Adam would quote. I have nothing but praise for his craft and the way he deconstructs his thought process and everything it involves. Amazing stuff.
Hi Adam, I have been watching and admiring your knowledge and skills for many years on many platforms. The advice you have given here is direct and honest to a fault. I have always undervalued my potential to take on projects. Quotes for your time and material, should always be doubled at the start of the negotiated pricing phase for any project. If they accept your price you do the project and accept the end results profit or loss. Always get it in writing as this is the only way you will see any monies owed to you, if the project goes south. Happy New Year Adam. Keep up the incredible work you do!
The thing I struggle with now that I'm working for a company with direct billable hours is how much of my time I should bill to the customer for learning and experimenting. On one hand I know that is inherently part of the process that I would not be doing without a project that requires it, but on the other hand someone who has already done a similar project before would be able to complete it without all that overhead.
Well this one really spoke to me. I was prop maker on a sci-fi film about 15 years ago. I was given a budget, separate from my salary, of course. And I was under immense pressure to get this stuff made and ready. Making hero props as well as copies that can get thrown around. The pressure mainly came from the fact that I was working for my oldest friend who was the writer and director. And I think there were times he didn't understand what went into making each of these items. To be fair, at the start neither did I. I was even expected to contract out to other shops. And I felt the prices they gave me were so insane¹ (at least I thought so, but now I understand they were quite reasonable). As a result, I did 90% of the work myself. While it was a delightfully creative endeavor for me (again, it was a sci-fi film after all), I would approach it differently now. As an aside, this is probably something that *Adam* can also speak to… My favorite of the props I had made was a tranquilizer gun. But when the film was finally done, you couldn't even see it, given the camera angle and lighting utilized for the scene. I could have spray painted a water pistol silver for what little you could see of it. 🤦🏼♂️ *EDIT:* Btw, because this was for my oldest and dearest friend, even 15 years later, I find myself often thinking about _what I could have done better._ 😏 ··•●✺●•·· ¹ ─Though reasonable, they were outside of our budget anyhow.
Remember that perpetual motion machine video? I think I figured out out. The boxes are batteries. The prongs are conductive, there is a small motor inside the axil, the vacuum and heat sync reduce power loss, and some of the power is generated by the small magnets on the inner circles. The black brackets are really wireless chargers. Even if they're not, watches can run for 10+ years and that thing runs for 2.
That's a great answer. That said the shop I worked for did loss leaders to maintain contact with large customers. We under bid Boeing c17 jet tailcones so we got other big jobs from Boeing. We got the job to make the turning jig for the fuselage of the 777, and the table jig for the wings.
Brilliant Adam. You're SO right. Morally bankrupt. I once heard of a small business consultant who said she'd "never seen a company go under because they charged too much. But seen PLENTY go bankrupt because they didn't charge enough". I'm in my 60's now and still muddling through ok as a small business modelmaker doing, puppets, costumes & stuff. I'd also add, get an advance payment (half upfront). It's a good litmus test, nobody serious minds being asked. Your clients will have done likewise before commissioning you, so they will have the funds. I playfully use the line, "it gets us in your accounts system, and indicates how seriously we need to take the job." They usually laugh and expedite the payment. If they kick off, or won't pay, then it's a job best avoided. Thanks for that.
Dieter! We need more of them in the world, and thank you Adam for being such a unique and interesting person who is looking back on life through these questions and mining the wisdom from it. Love you.
The best advice that took me too long time to follow was to raise my prices. I lost some clients, but made up more than the lost revenue from better pay and more sane work hours. As important, people respected me and my time. Hard to get over that in the early years, though.
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Adam or whomever may read this. Are you giving away prizes of some sort or another.
I just received a notation on this stream about some kind of thing - is this on the level or have I been hacked.
Frankie Ballard Murdered Sam Howes with the phrase "Pennies Make Dimes, Dimes make Dollars" inscribed in a Copper Ring made by Adam Savage
- Savage Adam
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Hats off to Dieter for being honest and not taking advantage of young you, Adam. Thank you to him for helping to form present you and being an example for the rest of us.
It can simply be good business, especially at a smaller scale. If you want the thing done right and on time, letting someone badly lowball himself can come around and bite you in the ass. I've seen multiple home construction jobs go south because the framers didn't pay attention to the plan and badly underbid the job, for example.
The cool thing about that, is that Dieter sacrificed a short term gain, for a longer term benefit. If you have a reputation for ripping people off, it suddenly becomes much harder to get people to do the work, and those that will are going to overcharge every chance they get.
A reputation takes a lifetime to build, and only seconds to destroy.
Honestly it also just sounds like Dieter was a decent fellow.
Dieter? more like Dietest, these people are so rare and should be treasured by society for the wonderful unicorns that they are.
The Dieter I met sounded indian
I have to admit that I was initially confused with "In the beginning of my MODELING career". Of course I immediately formed a mental picture of Adam doing a Zoolander walk at a fashion show.
😆👍🏻 Me too
Same, lol. Now I just want to be a modeler so I can say I've had a modeling career.
I already wanted to be a modeler because I love it, but now my reasoning changed.
Underrated comment
Haha, hilarious!
Gotta pay for that plywood, yo.
When I was in college I made a basic website for an artist friend of mine. I had no idea what to charge him so I said $50. The next day he wrote me a check for $500. He said his father told him that was the absolute minimum a basic website should cost. It was a valuable lesson not to undervalue your work.
I’m a freelance copywriter who’s just starting, and I recently renegotiated my pay with one of my clients and he actively told me what I was asking for wasn’t enough and told me he was going to pay me more - it was definitely a valuable experience, and I’m very grateful to have had it.
I had the same thing happen more than once when I was starting out and it really does make such an impact. When you're not experienced it can be hard to convince yourself that your time and skills are worth as much as they are. Glad you got that lesson early on!
I was told once, and this was in regards to carpentry but I've found it applies to every field I've worked in, "if you aren't getting turned down on 50% of your bids then you're not charging enough."
I had a mentor give me this advice starting off as a freelance podcast editor. Was sub-contracting me a job, asked what I could do it for, and told me no way, you're worth more than that. Not just grateful for the extra money but for the confidence that gave me in asking rates from other clients.
How is the copy writing field? I have my English degree but have yet to use it. Copywriting keeps popping up as a potential career path for me but I have no experience in that field.
Very cool.
The hard part is people find it really easy to put a dollar value on physical things, but place no value on your time or expertise.
When I was commission painting (tabletop minis), I lost count of the number of times I heard "You want how much? For a bit of paint? You must be crazy!"
But... you're not paying me for a bit of paint. You're paying me for 30 hours of my time and knowledge, expertise and a skill set that you don't have.
Your time and skills have value. Never forget to factor that in.
I always found it useful to keep a few examples... When you can stand something in front of them and see their eyes widen and the mystified expression cross their face, you KNOW you've reached someone with the understanding that this isn't just shaking a rattle-can and blasting some colors onto something... or slapping a few shades and tones into a cheap doll for a half-assed decoration...
My favorite was when some idiot would argue, "But I can get stuff like that at the Dollar Store."... Like "Bucket o' Soldiers"?
Yeah, if you want cheap plastic CRAP, go to China. They've got plenty of it. You can choke on it. If you want something unique, hand crafted and painted... You want it done by someone who gives a sh*t, then you come to ME... AND you pay MY price for it. ;o)
I once knew a guy who would have put it like this: "If it's just a bit of paint then you're certainly free to do it yourself."
Not surprisingly, this is where the conversation would invariably turn to a sheepish client having to admit that they couldn't.
@@warlockpaladin2261 My standard response became "You're paying me for my time, expertise and experience. I throw in the paint for free."
exactly. the top emergency department doctors get paid the big bucks because they have the experience and acumen to quickly tell someone that they DON’T need treatment and can go home (often to the dismay of the patients who were expecting all these tests and scans)
Truth be told and this is the only thing I feel (only a small part If the person, group, companies obstacle is time); and this works as well when your competitors are make something similar in their business --- what is the difference of the quality you can do vs me. I've seen these two things play out where one guy makes similar things but charges more, and I have to say to myself I have to get better. (The stuff some guys can make is one of a kind and shouldn't be treated like a commodity).
That's the second part are you a commodity (not the object) can you find 100 people in your area making the same thing or is their one of you - and so a guy can say I'm going to supply you with this, or help you out, or give you business, ect ect you hear everything and you don't bite on it.
The old cliches are if you do great work your never out of work. On the other side, if I am so cheap not willing to pay how bad of a product will I get, and then you value time, money, ect.
Some of the best advice I ever got was: Don’t be too good at the job you don’t want.
Kind of the total opposite of your story, but balance and all that.
I tried that one out. Multiple promotions in the wrong direction got me a dead end I didn't enjoy.
@@martinh2783 *not a good thing to become too comfortable doing something dull that you are unwilling to risk something else and possibly fail but lead to a much better opportunity and a new skill set that eventually becomes your greatest joy*
@@scottmantooth8785 I enjoyed the journey. I was specializing in radio communication in the army. I had a lot of fun learning and teaching but at the end there was only excel and administration.
i hate that i know exactly what this means.
This is true in a lot of areas. I've learned that, if you want to advance out of a low-tier job but you're really good at it, management will NEVER let you leave.
The idea of saying "No, that's not enough, the going rate is $XXX so I'm going to pay you that" is absolutely the correct course of action when someone is clearly not charging enough for their work. You'll find this A LOT among artists online, and it's why I tip HEAVILY whenever I commission artwork. I also encourage said artists to regularly increase their rates because they absolutely are not paying themselves enough.
I saw something similar a couple of years ago when I attended a show with some vendors selling stuff they had made. I bought one item and felt the asking price was far too cheap for what it was and paid them about 25% more than they had it priced at. I basically said, "you're selling these for too little. Keep the change."
Creative endeavors like this can be hard for people to appropriately appraise, since sometimes people look at how long it takes the person to "do the job" without considering how much time and effort and resources it took to get into the position you could do the work in the first place. Undercutting the market hurts everyone in the long run, even if done "for a friend."
"That which we obtain too easily, we esteem too lightly." - Thomas Paine
I always do this with my art commissions. I'll usually tip 50 percent of what the actual commission cost, more if I really, really like it. There was one guy charging 15 for sketches and was flabbergasted when I sent over 50 from being mad impressed
The "Don't do this for exposure" applies equally well to website design and development. Nothing good ever comes from doing work for free.
Also applies to work for friends. Either it's just a gift for a friend or it's the full price. Of course, there's nothing wrong with trading work or bartering with someone you trust.
@@matthewellisor5835 Right. I've had friends start bands and whatnot. They often think it's reasonable to gift their wares. I have to remind them "No, I want to pay. If anyone SHOULD be supporting you, it should be your friends."
@@matthewellisor5835 I do work for friends and family on a barter basis. I did a website for a friend's car washing/valeting company on the basis of getting free car washes.
I have had people try to get websites worth thousands in labor alone for free on the excuse that we were "friends" (often for all of 10 minutes). I always refused, but I was blessed with good people around me to warn me off of that.
And the frustrating part is that those who do give away free work to false friends or "exposure" companies hurt the market for everyone. The cretins do this because they know they can.
I feel so sorry for artists who get it so much worse. I used to do renders on DA and was frequently hit up by "idea" people who thought their having an idea was as valuable as the work required to make it. The professional artists I knew were getting it so much worse too. Constantly being pushed by high budget companies to work for free, by "fans" to draw things free, and horribly underselling their time when they did freelance work. One I commissioned when she was in a bind financially and was selling commission work was only getting about $30/hr or less despite needing expensive equipment and being an alum of some high profile game companies.
As you said, barter is fine, but it needs to also be reasonable. "I'll help clean your garage for a 3 month web project" ain't it.
It only ever exposes you to people that also want work for cheap or free. Never worthwhile unless you are negotiating for real advertising space to run whatever you like.
Photographer I apprenticed with did his quotes based on the flinch test. When he gave the estimate, if the client did not flinch, he would say "but of course XX and YY is an additional charge" but if the client did flinch, he would say "Realize this is a good deal since I will throw in XX and YY inclusive"
Thats smart asf lowkey
I love this
As a software engineer, hearing that question I immediately thought of work estimates as well 😂
I remember after putting together my first estimate, my boss doubled what I had. I felt a little offended, but he ended up being right.
After a few years, I'm at the point where I try my hardest to overestimate. Maybe you don't win every bid, but for the sake of everyone's sanity, it's better when the work is expected to be done early. I've also learned to stop estimating "the work", and instead estimate "the process".
Good advice there, I like it.
I never understood the difference between "the work" and "the process" until you framed it that way along with what Adam explained. Thanks, this is great advice.
@@JakeCWolf yeah, it's funny how different fields overlap. To put "process" more concretely - I previously would think about what the end result code would look like, and then think how long it would take to write.
The reality is nobody gets code right on the first try or think of every possibility. Often there might be an "R&D" period before you start the work. And then after I "think" I'm done, there's accessibility, browser, internal team, and then client testing.
So a lot of processes to get to the end result!
Also a software engineer. My boss will ask me how long something will take and I'll say a week and he'll say great and tell the client two weeks. In my experience a client will almost never fuss if you say one week vs two weeks, but if you do say one week and it takes two they will. Even if most of the time it does get done in one week, there is no reason not to give yourself the buffer.
I do research and troubleshooting bugs and I always shoot for two to three times the amount of hours required. Why because the code might be solid but trying to make heads or tails of it can be nuts.
I’m so glad it’s 2023 and Adam is in the same workshop 😊
I remember building an exhibition stand for a company called 'Fuel Boss'. It was a nightmare! I was out of my comfort zone (I was used to painting shop signs and had some woodwork under my belt), using materials with which I was not familiar. I built it at home as a 'knock-down' design so it could be dismantled and easily transported. It comprised not only the signage and display stand but also the shell. Only to find that the shell was already provided and I had to use that. So I had to juggle everything around to accommodate this existing shell (which did not fit any of the measurements for the one I had built). I got it done and they were happy. It came to the time when Shirley (the woman from Fuel Boss) said "How much do I owe you?". I knew exactly how much it had all cost but it was a much higher figure than I had ever charged for anything before and I needed time to pluck up the courage to give her the quote... so I said "I'll just go and work it out". Eventually, I took a deep breath and quoted the figure.
You know by the reaction when you've quoted a much lower figure than the client was expecting. This was clear. She was delighted... she even bought me a bottle of wine to compensate for the "inconvenience" of having to build a shell and then having to juggle everything else to fit into this existing shell.
They got a great deal and I got a week's worth of headaches and a bottle of wine. Lesson learned.
the whole "but you'll get your leg in with this company" (that isn't offering nearly enough now, and probably ever) thing is the best advice I ever got when I started freelancing.
like, okay, yeah, even if they handed you all the work in the world - is it worth doing? if you ask them for fair value later, will they balk? or are you just trapped working for too little forever because that's the rate and precedent now permanently set
I have a neighbour a bit like Deeter. I do a small amount of drone photography on the side and one day he asked me to take some photos so he could update the land registry for some properties he had altered. It wasn't anything difficult and took half an hour so i thought that £20 might be pushing it. (I earn around £10 per hour on my normal job). Once it was done, he wouldn't let me walk away with less than £70 as that was the value i had provided for him.
"The value you had provided him".
Great sentance. I really need to take that to heart, and change the way I do things.
I dabble in everything, love to learn new skills. But I also don't trust in my self enough to ask for money.
So when ever people ask me for help. Be it computer repair, painting, sowing, or what ever. I never ask for money. And most people don't offer any compensation apart from the price of materials.
They see my help as a given, and I don't feel my time and effort is valued.
Thats a blessing you had honest people to work with. Most people learn their lesson by getting screwed due to not being a good salesman.
Sadly true. I know people who would gladly pay you less than your worth and move on.
CS Lewis novel “Until We Have Faces” also goes into the “you can’t understand it until you can understand it” beautifully.
Adam, I work with a small after-school Theatre program at my school (middle school), and a few years ago one of my students offered to film two of our shows and edit them together into a full-length video. This is something I'd done for our previous shows, but this student is such a talented editor and filmmaker, I was stoked to turn it over to him. My partners in the program offered to pay him $50 for his time, when I usually charged a few hundred for the many hours of work it took. The ONLY difference between the two of us was age, and I put my foot down. I did not win that argument, and I still get steamed about it. I had a convo with the student to make sure he knew that it was important to value his work in the future, but still... How do you convince other adults that when a child is just as skilled and talented as an adult, their time and effort should be rewarded appropriately?
Depending on your country, the best way to convince other adults is through child labor laws
I think it's because children on average have much more time and way less responsibility, their time is less valuable even if their skills are. Not that this justifies the payment. But that's probably what goes through the heads of people relying on the labour of young people.
I’m a technician for Jaguar and Land Rover. When I first started I would under sell my work thinking 8hours to do that job was robbing the customer. A few years now and my mindset has changed the cost of tools and my knowledge plus time is absolutely worth whatever hours I sell a repair for.
As a carpenter in my first year of self employed business, I still question if how much I charge for my time is too low as I don’t want to overcharge or take advantage of people in fear of scaring off potential work. This advice has been extremely helpful and made me feel like I’m worth more than I realise.
Thank you Adam.
as a freelance artist/animator, I undercharge a LOT.
There have been a few projects where I asked for more than I thought the project was worth and they didn't hesitate in taking the offer cuz they thought it was cheap.
A few times I got offered more than I asked and it really changes your perspective.
Cannot thank you enough for saying the actual numbers. People shy away from talking about money, but it's so important to communicate that stuff especially when giving advice. Thanks!
@5:42 I love how Adam lets one rip and doesn't miss a beat.😂
I thought no one else was going mention anything lol that was definitely a shart 😂
Ok, you beat me to it. Glad I'm not the only one.
@@LilBigDude28he definitely put some FORCE into that one😂
@6:54 I'm sure he let a silent one loose
I am dying over here
It was great to hear your story, thank you for sharing. As a design consultant, I realized very quickly why I was loosing money or breaking even despite charging what I thought was a fair price to my clients. I thought I was smart, accounting for the time, material and labor costs, but what I failed to consider was the spaces between: The repeated 20 mile round trips to pick up the materials, the subscription costs for the programs I used, my insurance bills, the phone bill and internet bills that allowed me to connect with the clients dependably, the three square meals I ate each day while working, etc. Once I factored in those components in real time, man did my cost change! I started to see the value of "my time" in a much realer sense. Whether we are on the job or not, we will always have bills and daily cost-of-living expenses that should be factored into our time. Hope this helps others with pricing their work.
I phrase it as: wisdom cannot be taught, only learned. However, if someone has the right foundation of experiences, you can share distilled insight to catalyze revelations. But in general the best way I've found to share wisdom is to be a good mentor. Be a guide to others, walk them down the path you know will lead to the wisdom you wish to share. Then, when they are ready, you can share something truly transformative.
Wisdom and insight are amazing gifts to share. To both receive and especially to give.
This is excellent advice! Two stories.
I took auto shop in high school. The teacher used to tell us stories of the days he worked as a mechanic and an tow truck driver. He told us that if his shop didn't want a difficult job, they would over bid the price in hopes that another shop would get it. That way, if they ended up getting the job, it would be worth it.
A friend of mine is a copper artist, makes fountains and other art pieces. One of his early jobs was for a relative, and he gave a really low price to make this fountain. He lost money on the job, like a couple hundred. It was a learning experience, so he's not salty about it, but he could have and should have charged more.
So, yeah, don't sell yourself short.
This is super important for every career. People rip each other off so bad, and it actively hurts society. Takes advantage of young and financially precarious people. We have so many highly skilled but broke people, because skills mean nothing in a world built by thrives. You’ll be working hard but still going hungry. I’m trying to introduce the practice you describe in my corner of the world too. Performing artists need to be paid wayyyyyyyy more.
Breaking even. I remember my Dad designed some stained glass windows. The guy he designed for, a former student, drastically underbid the work. Dad just “oversaw” the artisans who actually crafted the windows. Just 3. But at 30’ by 40’ these are massive walls of a church. Dad always said he made a nickel an hour. Beautiful interpretations of those artists turning Dads original art into a dream. It will outlive us all. He always told a student, who looked back at a piece they had done in their first class, as they would say “oh wow look how bad that is!” His response was a question; “was that the best that you could do then?” “Yes”
“So, that was an honest piece of art”
One of my mentors gave all of his students the advice that was essentially the following:
"Call your local union trades people (plumbers, electricians, etc.) and ask what their hourly rate is, and start there."
Currently my hourly rate is $125, and will be increasing to $150 in the summer. And materials will be added on as the idea is finalized. One thing that I have also added is a 50% nonrefundable deposit so that I don't lose any money.
This came at the right time for me.
I just started offering my services repairing and restoring vintage electric pianos and I’ve really struggled with what to charge. I know my local shops sell these pianos for 5-6k and charge $100 an hour but that feels absurd to me when I’m spending 20 hours to really dial it in but I’m settling into being confident with pricing.
I always disliked when adults told me, “you will understand when you are older” but now that I'm older, it makes 100% sense.
Life does a good job to humble us lol
@@_aiborie hubris is at all time highs.
Someone did this for me when I was 18 and starting my business. It really did make a world of difference.
This video rings profoundly true. My mentor in fab & custom museum mount making told me in 2003 to charge $80 an hour for custom art related metalwork. I scoffed & billed $40 an hour (because I was working out of my parents garage & hadn't done a lot)... Cut to 20 years later, though I've secured regular & constant employment, It's been tricky to raise my hourly rate. I'm now at $60 an hour shop rate, me in my shop, 1 man band.. Not even keeping up with inflation over the years. But you tell yourself its a sacrifice to retain clients or get exposure or whatever...
Bill your work at market rate from the beginning.
One that got me scratching my head early on was the cost of expedited shipping. Turns out if 40+ people are waiting on one part to arrive, spending a few thousand dollars to buy that part a couple of seats on a private jet might make a lot of sense.
Happens in fabrication of wafer fabs. 5k each way to Korea from the US. part gets fixed overnight and is back by the morning. Simply because the part is such a long lead item it’s cheaper to do that then to put the fab build on hold.
Yeah, you're not comparing the cost of shipping to other shipping methods, you're comparing it to the cost of down time.
I work at a factory. When the multi million dollar machine is broken, the assembly line is slowed down, and an employee is just sitting there babysitting the machine, it suddenly looks cheap to overnight something a repair part.
On the other hand...why didn't we have a commonly failed part on hand as a spare when we already knew it was a common wear item?
I worked in airfield logistics for the Army, and this is so true. I worked in a particularly smart aviation unit, and if we didn't have a part and it was causing a work stoppage, or if there was a scheduled flight that week for the bird in question, we'd just get it from another location at our regiment and overnight it or grab it from one of the other battalions on post, or cox the giant wearhouse on post to give us someone else's order of the same thing, or drive 3 hours to the nearest aviation post and get it there. It was far better than missing the flight and having dudes wait around for days, everyone fall behind on work and training. We always flew more in a week than the other battalions on the airfield did in a month, and we were awarded more funding for being the best.
It’s nice to hear that you and other people have a realistic, moral and ethical stance on value of work. As a video producer and editor of 20 years I never had anyone do that for me. In fact, I’d regularly have people, especially marketing companies, tell me it was a good chance for more work and to get a foot in the door. I eventually came to the realization that I didn’t want to work with people like that and I had way too much experience to deal with those types of people. So thanks for being who you are because trust and respect goes both ways. You’re amazing.
I had a girlfriend that did video editing and was an intern somewhere strait out of school. I think it was at least paid but it was also supposed to turn into a full time position but that was a bunch of bovine feces. They didn't want to pay a full timer when they could keep getting cheap interns. Good for you knowing what your time is worth
A lot more people need to watch this, because the prices I see makers ask for one-off items on Etsy are often shockingly low, items that have to take a week to make selling for $60. The marketplace by its nature pushes bargains to the top I’m sure, but that is seriously harming makers who want to switch to doing it full time.
Etsy sellers make me so mad. I crochet, so I thought I could make a few extra bucks by selling hats or blankets on Etsy. Everyone undercharges there. They'll sell a hat for $20, and I know that hat took 2 hours to make, plus the cost of yarn, so they're selling their time for maybe $7/hour. You can't make a living doing that. It's insulting. And then no one else can compete with that price. A hat I might crochet would be worth at least $50 by time and yarn cost. I can't compete with people willing to devalue themselves like that. I'd rather donate my time making hats and blankets (which I do).
@@julietardos5044 machine knitting and sweatshops has made the general market have too unreasonable expectations. They're mentally going "i can buy a blanket at wallmart for 20 dollars, 600 is insane" when 600 can even be vastly lowballing it considering the amount of work hours and the quality of the materials. Which is why selling quality textile crafts to the general public doesn't work, they're too ignorant and don't understand the quality differences in yarns, textiles, and techniques. Even plushie makers get this problem. Which is why usually crafters like this either have to find a good niche market that can properly appreciate them, or they only do it as a hobby and labour of love for friends and family that do understand the quality and the amount of work.
@@Call-me-Al Yep. Totally. A knitter friend of mind recently asked me to crochet her a hat (a particular hat that I was wearing), and I was happy to do it because I know that she knows what goes into making a hat. I'd never do it for someone who doesn't respect my time or experience.
A lot of Etsy stuff these days is made in places with very low pay. And I doubt Etsy is verifying stuff that says it's "handmade" actually is. A place that sells elaborate sweaters for $70 each in 8 different sizes? I'm sure there's a machine involved or people being paid $1/hour.
@@sholiday8739 that was totally my suspicions, that a lot of these “handmade” US sellers are actually flipping Chinese made products with a few cosmetic changes.
“Time and health are your most important assets we don’t fully appreciate until they are depleted”
👍 Exactly thankyou
I had no idea you were one of the model makers for Micro Machines. You are absolutely right about the "exposure" not being real. I know some rare jobs do give exposure, but that's a lottery ticket at best and no one should exploit other people's lack of access like those who "pay" in "exposure" do.
One of the best videos ever! I was hired once to fix some code and after a few days, I found the line of code that had the bug and customer refused to pay me for the 20 hours worth of work because it was just a simple one-line change. I learned to estimate up front and get paid up front first after that.
my grandfather (dads dad) had an automotive shop which my uncles and dad worked at. my grandad once told a 5 or 6 year old me, charge 3x the cost of the part and add in the labor. he also said you can come down on the part but you cant come down on the labor. its served me well in my adult life.
This is so true. What’s kind of frightening is you can go years before you realize you are charging too little. An old man once told me, you’re not charging enough unless they wince. If they boil in rage that’s a good price too as long as you can calm them down. Of course some strategies are riskier than others.
A mentor of mine told me early in my career when I was working my arse off to feed, cloth and house my family: “Kid, you can make more money, you can’t make more time. Spend your money and time with family and friends while you can. The time will run out before the money”. Truth. 🙏🏻😎
As a physician there is something I have told several patients about complex medical or physiologic issues. I tell them "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you." I say it in the most sincere possible way because for me it took well over a decade of dedicated schooling and study to even begin to understand what I do...and I continue every day to learn more. The same goes for electricians, mechanics, plumbers, artisans, etc. To laypeople there are things that seem easy to the person doing something but that's only because of the years dedicated to making it look easy.
As a struggling artist (and am starting on sculpture) THIS is so helpful because it is SO difficult to make people understand what they are ACTUALLY paying for that many just walk away. 😓
Being a freelance motorcycle mechanic I am nodding my head through this whole video. Charging your worth for the marketable skill you have can be very tough especially as an agreeable person.
I work in the software industry and estimating jobs is one of the most difficult aspects of my work. You are spot on that your estimate must always be significantly higher than the actual cost of the time to do the job. It is not until you have significant experience under your belt until you truly appreciate all the little hidden costs of doing a job that must be accounted for in order to actually turn a profit.
I had a coworker tell something that I interpreted as "Make yourself invaluable" when I was a new hire because they heard I wasn't a great fit with the team initially. I took it to heart and got on really well with the team for and it was great.
Years later I found out that they meant what they said disparagingly and weren't trying to help but they are such a great person that I didn't realize it at the time.
"Time + material + 20%" is the formula that I use for welding that I do out of my garage. Carlos Castaneda is a name that I haven't heard in .. a decade or longer. Thanks 👍.
I've got experience with the opposite: advice many people give, but is terrible. When I went into the Army many old-timers told me, "Never volunteer for anything!" That sounded stupid, so I did the opposite and volunteered for absolutely EVERYTHING. I got to do a lot of random cool, fun things that I would have missed out on if I didn't raise my hand. My best stories and memories were from training programs and work details I volunteered for to get out of cleaning an already-clean barracks or changing the oil on a truck that saw 2,000 miles a year.
The market is ruthless, so you gotta be ruthless back. You gotta charge as high as they can pay. Even if you are brand new. You are basically doing the same work that a veteran would be doing.
I'm glad you got some honest people in the beginning of your career, that's super lucky.
At one of my jobs (industrial screenprinter) the owner had a sheet that would follow every job. It had a breakdown of every cost related to the job and at the end the costs were tallied up and then divided by .7. We could compare the costs and even as production employees we knew if a job earned money. It was a good education in being aware of the way expenses build up and in not being embarrassed about charging a reasonable price.
I worked at a Chic-Fil-A where the operator did the same thing. Every employee was aware of the cost of everything that went into a meal, including the ingredients, straws, napkins, sauces, and the bag, as well as the hidden costs like utilities and insurance. We were careful with resources which made the store more profitable, which led to raises and happier employees.
Carlos Castaneda, the way of warrior. Love those books
Best advice I ever got was, "Don't sell yourself short, know your worth.". As a independent plumber/engineer that always enters the back of my mind when bidding/billing a job. I'm reasonable but my time is extremely precious.
This goes beyond makers, I was one of the very first customers of a break out pair of sparkies (they've just left other companies and formed their own), they didn't even even have business cards yet. They absolutely both underestimated the size of the job and the value of the work, quoting me 200 to install conduite,, wire up the carport for lights and add a power point under the board all controlled by a 4 channel remote inside the meter box. It was twice as much work as they'd estimated and I'd already decided I was going to add $40 per hour so when I paid them their $200 I said "that's your quote" dumped another $350 in their hands and said "that's the value of your work taking into account the extra time"
Love your point about relative availability of resources… specifically time. It is easy to think you can take a risk on something and make up for it with time when you think the price makes for a decent days wage. When you combine that with not incorporating your TOTAL cost (rent, capital, consumables, insurance, etc… in addition to time and materials) you wind up doubly screwed.
Another thing…. Just because you work out of your home garage or basement, doesn’t mean those resources are free. Nor does it mean you shouldn’t build them into your cost & pricing. By NOT including them you undercut the pros who do understand the true costs and you drive down the market for everyone. Everybody loses.
The best advice a coworker gave me is when applying for a new job don’t take it unless the company has benefits and a break room. If you company does not they don’t care about you at all so find a new job quick!
It’s hard not to undervalue yourself at the beginning when you have that idea in your head “if I don’t accept it, they’ll find someone better” or anything else, that’s why it’s so true that you learn through the process. Your value will shine in the right place and it will be noticed by the right people and you will learn both of those things through the process. I’m still getting better at all of this and I’ll definitely keep working on it. Thanks for the video!
So useful that at 51 and already knowing this, I just saved this video to my favorites. Excellent advice Adam.
7:35 - Don Juan - A Yaqui Way Of Knowledge! These lessons and these books were fundamental to forming my own way of looking at the world. The Four Enemies of a Man of Knowledge keep becoming more and more relevant over time.
Adam, your passion for what you have done and continue to do is exhilarating to listen to. Keep being the young Adam we all have grown to admire.
The person is not only paying for all of the costs associated with the building or making of the project but also for all of the essentials that the model-maker has to factor in (in order to be at a position where they can successfully make that for their customer)...also much appreciation for Dieter for being honest with Adam so early on! Many beginners in any sort of careers face this issue when starting out as a fresher and many companies and bosses and exploit beginners like that...and then the freshers can't figure out exactly why they are burning out.
I'm a Artist and has had a few custom works here and there for customers and I have ALWAYS struggled with this. THIS video has been such a big eye opener! Thank You so much Adam Savage!!!
Great video. Never forget the overhead. Rent, heat, electricity, training, wear and tear on equipment. It all adds up.
“If you’re good at something, never do it for free.” -Heath Ledger’s Joker
“If you’re good at something, never let somebody undercut your self-esteem, your work and your time.” -a summary of Adam Savage’s story 👏🏼❤️
He's absolutely right. Your most valuable commodity is time, get paid what you're worth!
Normally I roll my eyes at career advice but this was spot on
As a auto-mechanic this was a valuable lesson
I don't know if Adam will read this but I can't say how thankful I am for these videos. I'm 23 starting to work in the small film industry of my country, The Dominican Republic. I'm currently getting exponencially bigger jobs each time and things are going so fast, most of the times I have no idea how much to charge and it's really confusing. Hearing a role model like Adam saying it's a normal thing and sharing his personal experience is just a valuable gift. Thank you for hanging out with us Adam, it means a lot.
Best career advice i ever got was to "do what you say and say what you do." If you promise something, you'd better deliver. And you should NEVER promise what you aren't sure you can deliver on that promise. So be honest with your customers, let them know up front what you are capable of, and what they can expect from you.
This works for every job and every career. Hell, it's just good life advice.
Ah, that hit the spot! I just started a business in the creative industry and as Adam said: The MOST difficult task was how much to charge. What is my work worth? In my country it is even FORBIDDEN by law to ask other business owners how much they charge, if they don't publish their prices themselves. It is VERY difficult to get prices of other producers and a reference to start calculating your prices. And there are so many customers that are ice-cold business men that just nod at your low prices and would NEVER tell you that you're to cheap...
my first real job, after a short interview to make sure I could do what I said I could (3d artist with a portfolio) I quoted my out of school job rate plus... what thought was a generous raise... the owner of the shop who was going to hire me paused and said to me "we dont really pay our artists that little" .... still one of my favorite people to work for to this day
Adam you are so right about costing jobs. I've been the chief design estimator for the company I've worked for several decades, and even I am surprised sometimes at how much some things cost when I work up the numbers for our customers. But you have to understand that you are in the business to make money not loose money.
My best friend's wife is a graphic designer / freelance artist. We had to convince her over multiple days of conversations that she was not asking nearly enough for the freelance job she'd been planning on bidding. She eventually tripled her rate and they said "sure". She just didn't know what the market was willing to bear because she didn't have the confidence to ask for the moon.
The first thought when winning a contract was "Hurray, we won!!" - The second was "What did we miss?"
I was an "amateur" musician but did a few playing gigs and learnt very early on no place EVER accepts exposure dollars
I'm glad you answered this question. I'm new into woodworking. This has given me a better understanding of the business side of it. It doesn't matter what your product is.
It seems to me the one thing people always forget to charge for or seriously undervalue is their time. You have specialized skills and education, you're skilled labor and your time is valuable, charge for it. Don't worry about ripping someone off, that's you devaluing yourself and your skills, you need to get over that.
I learn best when there is a lot of data to learn. And so when you spent that whole time to explain that one little concept, it actually has wayyyyyy more value than you might think. Because now anything related to the little concept also has other concepts from the story that can support it and allow me to build a more robust and practical mindset. Thank you!
This resonates with me so much. Struggled to price my pieces and work all my life, and still battle with the need to people please. Currently wrapping up two projects that took up all my December leave, and don't even make a profit. Really sucks the joy out of the process. Thank you for sharing!
Thank you so much for this video Adam. I’ve been in the same job for 5 years and I really want to change it, apply myself better and realise my true worth in something more challenging.
As a sound person getting started both on set and in post, I needed to hear this. This is relevant and immensely helpful. Thx for sharing
As a creative, I cannot thank you enough for this small but mighty piece of advice.
When starting out, get quotes from an established competitor to gauge your own quotes. Do not undercut them by 20+%. Go under 5-15% max depending on the scale of the work.
Take 5-15% cut for "exposure". ;-)
Thanks man. Running a business is both the most gratifying and the most scariest thing I have ever done. I appreciate that advice.
This is an interesting discussion that applies to anyone offering a self-employed service.
I am really enjoying the Q&As. This one would be good for any freelancer from any profession.
From a conversation, yesterday: "I didn't think of that, until..." "until you thought of it!" Strangely wise and accurate...
There's an animator. She got paid like two hundred bucks and it was some huge animation. The contract was unfair to her as well because she couldn't even tell people she did it. The sad reality is that people really do abuse people starting out in their careers. I am grateful that you're sharing this info out into the world.
That Carlos Castaneda reference came from nowhere and I can't express how happy that made me. I would have never guessed that he was among the authors that Adam would quote. I have nothing but praise for his craft and the way he deconstructs his thought process and everything it involves. Amazing stuff.
Hi Adam, I have been watching and admiring your knowledge and skills for many years on many platforms. The advice you have given here is direct and honest to a fault. I have always undervalued my potential to take on projects. Quotes for your time and material, should always be doubled at the start of the negotiated pricing phase for any project. If they accept your price you do the project and accept the end results profit or loss. Always get it in writing as this is the only way you will see any monies owed to you, if the project goes south. Happy New Year Adam. Keep up the incredible work you do!
Another excellent share from a precious sage. Adam you add so much to my days over so many years. Cheers to you friend.
Great advice: Know what your work is worth. Accept nothing less.
The thing I struggle with now that I'm working for a company with direct billable hours is how much of my time I should bill to the customer for learning and experimenting. On one hand I know that is inherently part of the process that I would not be doing without a project that requires it, but on the other hand someone who has already done a similar project before would be able to complete it without all that overhead.
Well this one really spoke to me. I was prop maker on a sci-fi film about 15 years ago. I was given a budget, separate from my salary, of course. And I was under immense pressure to get this stuff made and ready. Making hero props as well as copies that can get thrown around.
The pressure mainly came from the fact that I was working for my oldest friend who was the writer and director. And I think there were times he didn't understand what went into making each of these items. To be fair, at the start neither did I. I was even expected to contract out to other shops. And I felt the prices they gave me were so insane¹ (at least I thought so, but now I understand they were quite reasonable). As a result, I did 90% of the work myself.
While it was a delightfully creative endeavor for me (again, it was a sci-fi film after all), I would approach it differently now.
As an aside, this is probably something that *Adam* can also speak to… My favorite of the props I had made was a tranquilizer gun. But when the film was finally done, you couldn't even see it, given the camera angle and lighting utilized for the scene. I could have spray painted a water pistol silver for what little you could see of it. 🤦🏼♂️
*EDIT:* Btw, because this was for my oldest and dearest friend, even 15 years later, I find myself often thinking about _what I could have done better._ 😏
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¹ ─Though reasonable, they were outside of our budget anyhow.
Remember that perpetual motion machine video? I think I figured out out. The boxes are batteries. The prongs are conductive, there is a small motor inside the axil, the vacuum and heat sync reduce power loss, and some of the power is generated by the small magnets on the inner circles. The black brackets are really wireless chargers. Even if they're not, watches can run for 10+ years and that thing runs for 2.
That's a great answer. That said the shop I worked for did loss leaders to maintain contact with large customers. We under bid Boeing c17 jet tailcones so we got other big jobs from Boeing. We got the job to make the turning jig for the fuselage of the 777, and the table jig for the wings.
Brilliant Adam. You're SO right. Morally bankrupt.
I once heard of a small business consultant who said she'd "never seen a company go under because they charged too much. But seen PLENTY go bankrupt because they didn't charge enough".
I'm in my 60's now and still muddling through ok as a small business modelmaker doing, puppets, costumes & stuff.
I'd also add, get an advance payment (half upfront). It's a good litmus test, nobody serious minds being asked. Your clients will have done likewise before commissioning you, so they will have the funds. I playfully use the line, "it gets us in your accounts system, and indicates how seriously we need to take the job." They usually laugh and expedite the payment. If they kick off, or won't pay, then it's a job best avoided.
Thanks for that.
Dieter! We need more of them in the world, and thank you Adam for being such a unique and interesting person who is looking back on life through these questions and mining the wisdom from it. Love you.
If it wasn’t for Mr. Kuhnert showing you kindness and generosity, who knows where that would have lead you financially. God bless both of you.
The best advice that took me too long time to follow was to raise my prices. I lost some clients, but made up more than the lost revenue from better pay and more sane work hours. As important, people respected me and my time. Hard to get over that in the early years, though.