Recapping old amplifiers
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- Опубликовано: 19 июн 2024
- If you own vintage audio equipment is it worth it to recap? Often times, the recapping is more expensive than newer audio equipment. If you want to learn more, grab a copy of Paul's new book, The Audiophile's Guide. www.psaudio.com/products/the-...
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I recapped and installed led panel lights in my Pioneer sx-434 myself and in combination with my KEF 104/2 speakers it just sounds unmatched! Tried two modern amps and somehow they couldn't match it, the warmth and depth of this amp is so amazing, the "loudness" button works so well. With soft listening all frequencies are nice and balanced and give such a pleasant sound. Everybody that hears my setup is blown away, with a friend now looking for exactly the same one because he's been saying for years that he wants it too. So for me, my 1970's Pioneer is really worth it more than just a decorational piece.
Agreed. I am firm believer in the power and quality of vintage. I do all my restorations and recaps myself and have the equipment to do it. If you know how to service a vintage amp, preamp, or whatever well, then you will absolutely get true HiFi quality at 1/10 the cost of new gear. If you have to pay somebody for all the servicing and recapping, then you'll have to spend 1/3 to 1/2 that of a comparable modern amp.
The biggest advantage in my mind is that vintage gear is truly serviceable and can sound at LEAST as good as modern gear in low to mid-range modern HiFi market. You have to get into truly car level money before you can touch well serviced vintage gear. And then, you will never be able to fix it. Your local repair guy, much less you, will have no chance at fixing a problem other than a blown fuse. You'll be sending it in and spending at least 1/3 of the original price to have it factory serviced.
I have enjoyed some modern gear, but I think the audiophiles that turn up their noses at good vintage gear do so because they have preconceived bias to love the sound of any rig that cost the owner more than $15k to put together. I challenge any audiophile to sit in front of my vintage rig blindfolded and guess what's under the hood in both gear and cost. I have done this with three different people I work with. They no longer trash talk my interest in vintage audio.
I dont like surface mount parts or class d amps except for subwoofers. I still have the equipment that I bought in 7th grade except more of it. Ive integrated it into modern bluray setup and 4k tv.. but all my audio is vintage and parts are basic through hole parts..
I’m going to have to disagree with Paul on this one. I recently sent my 30 year old Rega back to the manufacturer via my local dealer, to be refurbished. When it came back I blind tested it, in the dealers listening room against modern amps 4 times it’s price. Both the dealer and I were shocked, it held it’s own and then some.
If you are happy with the sonic signature of your current amp, then stick with it, have it serviced, I don’t think you’ll regret it.
A REGA ?? Omg ... they're terrible
There is a burn in on those caps too, play it for about 10 hours before you decide. : Edited part - I thought you meant the old amp wasn't as good as the new one, sorry.
Howard, you are completely correct. I like Paul very much and I met his son at the last show we were able to attend before the pandemic. My partner, Bob Carver and I both recognize Paul's brilliance and his contribution to the hobby and the high-end audio industry but I can recap that amplifier and make it sound damn good for $250-$350 depending on the extent of damage from age or anything else and we would provide a one-year warranty plus upgrades. so Paul, how about telling me how you can match the value of comparing a $300 expenditure to buying a new amplifier for what could possibly cost thousands of dollars in the middle of the pandemic?
@@fmalitz 250-350 What are you putting in there 1000uF film caps, haha
@@janinapalmer8368 yeh, terribly good!
This is the first time I disagree with you :( I have a 40 year old amp (one of the last of the Receiver Wars). It's probably a little off key now but was good in it's day. It will cost about £100 ($120) to have it recapped. Which despite never being as good as high end new equipment, it will sound much better than a brand new £100 amp as well as being £thousands cheaper than a brand new high end equivalent.
So yes, a brand new amp at £2,500 will sound heavenly. Spending £100 to keep an old high end amp sounding good is a cost effective option - esp during these difficult times.
Hi Samantha. I entirely agree. The caps. on my 30 year old Naim 250 deteriorated to the point where it blew the fuse on switching on: One recap later it's sounding as good as new and, hopefully, set good for another thirty years. It cost under £200 by a local specialist so money well spent; there's no way I could have (or wanted to) afford a new equivalent amplifier.
I couldn’t have put that better!
I 3rd that
Hello
@@Tweel_Weight_Plate pardon?
There is an extra dimension of listening pleasure to audio gear that you have been involved in making work...including swapping caps with new ones.
It feels like they come from an era of greater pride in build quality too.
Thats true i can agree to that
This fellow wants to sell his amps.
Notice many who disagree with Paul. Remember he said this is a hard question. I agree. It depends on different types of amplifiers. I wouldn’t modify a crappy car or amplifier. However if the amp, especially tubes, has good attributes and well built, I would re-cap it.
I have a 24 year old Mark Levinson amplifier which is 96 lbs and does 100wpc at 8ohms but more importantly it does 400 wpc into 2ohms. It retailed for $4500 at the time or equivalent to $6800 today. I brought it in to get evaluated and it measured well so I didn’t get it re-capped. I got a quote of $1,100 to fully service and re-cap it. When the time comes, I certainly will re-cap it. I have yet to hear an amplifier that sounds as good as it.
Well said!
@@HareDeLune yep. It is a hard question to answer and in most cases depends on what gear you are talking about specifically, how old it is, and how it has been treated. So, everyone's mileage will likely vary...
@@rosswarren436
Agreed.
Like most things in life, it is contextual, and up to the individual.
One of the brands I have worked has a official technical support was ML, I don t know what is your model, because different models have different issues, but I recomend strongly you do the service with the recap asap before any failure, if it fails believe me you will never forget my post.
@@EduardoCruz-ur4wq I have never encountered a situation with a capacitor failing which causes catastrophic damage. I own 4 amplifiers currently and have owned 11 others over the years. This was never brought to my attention. I have talked to ML representatives and never heard this before under both Harman and Madrigal. I’m not going to fix something that clearly works and measures properly by a high-end shop in my area that deals with Audio Research, McIntosh, and other audiophile equipment. I’m curious to what your response is.
I spent $140 having my 30 year old Harmon Kardon integrated amp recapped (Power Capacitors and Audio Capacitors?) and the improvement was stunning.
If PS Audio would like to sell me one of their amplifiers for $140 I will happily buy it.
Awesome! I have a late 70's Citation 16 (was my father's) that I'm looking to have recapped eventually. The channel balance is noticeably off without adjusting the balance on my mixer. Outside of that, definitely one I want to keep in the family.
@@w00derice Do it!
@@stephenmorrissey1254 Sweet, I'll have to do some research. Just wish I kept the a/d/s's from then. I did replace them with early 90s Boston Acoutics. :)
just spend 800 Euros to have my old HK 665 vxi refurbished - it was worth every cent.
There is NO WAY the cost of recapping is even close to the cost of a PS Audio amp. I would recap for a few hundred bucks and see how it sounds.
First time I have to disagree with Paul also. Cost of recap of an integrated amp $400, even a receiver $600, cost of plain vanilla Sprout $700. I don't think a class D amp is going to sound anywhere near as good as a vintage amp recapped in my opinion. You need to spend at least $3k on any brand new integrated amp to get some features and quality.
@@zulumax1 -- There are Class D amps that perform better than pretty much any 1970s receiver, but the Sprout100 -- which is built around an "entry level" OEM Class D + SMPS module from ICEPower that's really no better than the best of today's monolithic Class D chips -- isn't one of them. The Sprout100's appeal is based on its pleasing physical design and convenient feature set, not its performance as pure amplification, which is unexceptional.
@@editorjuno They are getting better. Just haven’t heard one I like yet. Better use of power, awesome bass punch and control. I am going to use a newer Crown amp for subwoofers on my tube amp system.
@@zulumax1 -- The Crowns are excellent values with a great set of features, but nowhere near the state of the Class D art. Amps based on Purifi's "Eigengtakt" architecture, on the other hand, are objectively *and* audibly better than anything PS Audio has to offer -- Benchmark's AHB2, a highly innovative modern "mixed class" power amp, is the one current product that's measurably, if not audibly, superior to something built around Purifi E400a modules. Nothing in the conventional Class AB world can touch those two, or the best of the older Hypex NCore stuff. You might just have to listen to more first-rate Class D amps -- PS Audio's "Stellar" models are more than decent, but nowhere near the top of the Class D heap. Keep listening and you'll hear what I mean -- the days of "Class D" is only good for subwoofers" are well and truly over.
@@michal03966 Name an amp for $200-$400 that would sound better then say a 20 year old high end amp recapped? I just bought a new $1000 Rotel integrated as a backup to my 20 year old Parasound that needs to be recapped, guess which one sounds better? Parasound!
I completely disagree with you, a competent recaping sometimes puts the amplifiers in a level better than new, I have recaped hundreds of amplifiers and pre amplifiers of the vintage gear , monster receivers and high end, even some receivers of the 70 and 80 in the middle range can sound better than new amplifiers of a superior range and is easy to do that, so the question that I do is : do you liked the set when it was new, and did it make you happy ?
If the answer is yes go ahead, if it`s not positive, throw away money on the set doesn´t make it better.
Even the capacitors brands have datasheets about the life expectancy of an electrolytic capacitor and the average is about 12 years, so if you like the set, recap recap and recap, of course use the best quality inside brands like Panasonic Nichicon Vishay brands, CDE and a few ones, ,avoid china brands cheap crap.
I knew what you said as i am a vintage lover and collecting lots of old amps , colour of the sound is different, maybe its a personal and subjective opinion , but my old carver and celestion speaker does properly for my ears
Eduardo, I don't think I've ever seen so many people disagree with Paul despite his brilliance. Most people do not earn what Paul earns but apparently, it's easy for him to spend their money! Lest you think I'm being competitive (I own the Bob Carver Corporation), we recommend his products consistently for those who prefer solid-state and especially for his preamplifiers since our (TUBE) unit will not be ready until the middle of 2021 at the soonest. His work on line conditioning cannot be ignored. His advice on recapping SHOULD be ignored for most people. His Internet videos are excellent-- except for this one :-)
Yeah, there was often more passion for perfection decades ago when it came to audio engineering. Nowadays, too much of the popular audio gear is engineered by a bunch of junior engineers in some office somewhere in Shenzhen China who enjoy their music from their smart phone earbuds or their Bluetooth speaker at home. For the same money, a retro amp and some retro speakers can easily beat brand new stuff and replacement caps, speaker surrounds and other such wear-out components are cheap.
@@ThinkingBetter I agree with you so much I love my vintage old receivers just to me I love the way it sounds to💯👍👍👍🎶🎶I also love the weight of them and the real beautiful knobs and switches. Just like you said they took pride back then.
@@Anth4044 Two factors have made the average audio quality for consumers drop:
1. The trend of "smaller is cooler" with tiny Bluetooth speakers, phone speakers, laptop speakers etc. dominating for many people.
2. The trend of audio engineering becoming something done in China by engineers who have no real audio passion and mostly care about keeping the cost down.
After working in audio repair for some years I have been asked this many times. I came up with a stock answer that is easy to remember. If your amplifier is 20 years old, have it recapped. Some caps will last longer but many are already showing decreased performance and need to go. The 20 year rule is a pretty good answer!
Hi
@@adamsonlinearrayspeakersha87 look, I dunno if you’re the same person or bot as the “aerobic studio” one, but I’m reporting every single one of your inane comments.
Wow, my 1980 Carver amp and pre amp are WAY overdue. I just spoke with a tech about this. He said old equipment is easier to find compents for than newer equipment. Go figure.
Come on guys, if you keep your old stuff, how are we going to sell new stuff?
>__
It's true 👍
your not, with me anyway
Everyone should test gear before buying, if the old gear is better stay with it.
Once fixed a neighbor's early 1980s era Sansui integrated back in 1995 using Rubycon Black Gate caps and no longer available transistors with mil spec ones gutted from a Vietnam War era B-52 G Stratofortress. My neighbor still uses that Sansui to this day because he never could find anything better sounding for under 2,000 USD since the start of 1997. And yet I often joke that in the year 2200, he might find such amps. 🤔
I actually went through something similar recently. I was using an old NAD 310 to power a pair of 70s Castle speakers and the NAD gave up the ghost. I found someone online who claimed to do a thorough recap service and had a decent reputation to back it up but in the end I decided to go for a Cambridge Audio AXA35 and it's come in and taken my sound experience to the next level. I also have the added benefits of a remote control and a stand-by power mode. Paul is giving good advice here.
I will also say that my Castles are the last man standing in my system. Every other component has been replaced and each time the sound from the Castles got better. The Castles were bought fully refurbished and they've been every bit as good as I've wanted them to be so I've got nothing against vintage equipment but I think it has to be about what works for your system.
The Castles are very good at being a pair of 70s speakers with the looser bass and treble to be expected from speakers of that period. The NAD 310 was an amplifier from the mid-90s with a very high SNR of 106db and the clear sound from that complemented the "warmth" of the Castles and added the mid-range organisation that the Castles lacked. An older amplifier would have only added distortion to the Castles sound.
For this reason, I felt my Castles would thrive under a new amplifier. Most people these days want more than 35w per channel to power speakers with ridiculously poor sensitivity levels but a well marshalled 35w is just what the doctor ordered for the Castles. The AXA35 is the kind of amp that takes charge and lets you know it's running the show.
I think a lot of people are afraid of mixing up vintage and new components but the truth is that they can bring the best out of each other if they're paired right.
I'm really leaning towards 'new' too. I love old stuff (more visual I guess) but since buying the Dali Spektor 2's I'm now thinking my 15-35 year old amps may need to be sold. It's not just caps. It's other components that's what's making sound better now. The circuitry is a lot more advanced. You only have to look at vids showing you the insides of an amp now. In particular the AXA35 looks fantastic under the hood. I think it's time to give up the ghost and purchase this badboy. 🤔
i really love the fact that even though we love our old vintage equipment always leave room for improvement thanks again for the video
I’ve had two vintage Fender amplifier’s recapped over the years. Was like night and day. Aka Vintage Tanks.
Well done!
Recapping old valve gear is incredibly important.... not doing it will damage the amp and speaker beyond repair. Fender Amps are great aswell!
@@jackheinemann8780 I know that one. A 64 SR and VR are worth every bit to recap.
@@stevec.1802 I thought you would have known. This was the only comment i found mentioning valve gear, and there are alot of less technically inclined folks reading these comments so i thought id help them out...and possibly save an amp or 2 in the process!
@@jackheinemann8780 I’ve been following a few hifi audio channels and stumbled on PS. Being familiar with valve gear related to guitars this episode peaked my interest. Figured I’d chime in regarding recapping having had two fender amps recapped within the last 10 years.
A few years ago I began building a system made up of mid-late 70’s Pioneer equipment that I wished I could have afforded when I was a teenager, including a Pioneer SX 828 where I had the power recapped. I listen to it for hours and hours every day. I also have a modern amp that I have hooked up to the very same make and model of speakers and in my opinion there’s a better sound coming from my Pioneer.
Replacing caps in any vintage 70's or 80's gear if worthwhile if the price is "reasonable" (or better yet...DIY). I noticed improvement in sound by just re-capping s SONY (1975 vintage) Pre-amp. But it only cost me the $$ for parts.
I think it's worth trying the DIY approach first, if you can,
At least if the results aren't up to your expectations you won't lose too much if you sell it
I am a fan of the DIY. Particularly if it is a fairly simple amp with not a massive number of caps. Certainly a tube amp is a snap to recap and not much money.
I’m sure you did hear improved sound. But remember your were hearing a compromised amplifier prior to a rebuild! But this alone does not make an old amplifier superior to a new amplifier just because it was rebuilt! There are many other factors involved here not just the obvious like weak capacitors.
Bad capacitors will effect the performance of a vintage color tv. But that old color tv isn’t superior in any way shape or form to what we can do today. You can say it looks great and it probably does for the era it came from. Sound reproduction is no different in the hearing regards.
But it’s the nostalgia of it all and I get the coolness in that. Enjoy!
Just recapped a Sansui AU217 MkII, and while I was in there upgraded all internal wiring, replaced resistors with wire wound and metal film types, fitted new binding posts and gold plated RCA sockets, took the headphone socket out of the circuit and put a shielded mains cable in. A wonderful project at a total cost of less than £200, including buying the amp. It's the best amp I've had in my study system by a country mile and some of them I've had in there cost over £800 when new.
Quite apart from that, it's another piece of vintage gear that won't end up in landfill, so it's friendly to the planet!
Typically, $250 to $375
I would seriously doubt any product that PS Audio sells is cheaper than recapping.
Still love ya Paul
And why Paul still using vintage speakers like Infinity IRS?
Ha-ha!
Good question! 😂
Simple answer: Because he has not found anything better yet.
Good question, though!
Bloody good point mate. He does regularly refurbish them, but advocates to others that they replace their equipment. I suppose that if none of us replaced our gear, PS Audio would cease trading.
Simple answer for that, not like amps , speaker does not contain complicated circuit board, just simple crossover , the rest component not being degraded with time, except the membrane section of martin logan electrostatic .....decay with heavy moisture air . I still used my old polk srs signature series....thats beast ...
@@sundaru1 That's certainly far from true for the IRS, which is a bi-amped system, that has self-powered woofer towers, and a complex servo system for the woofers that Paul has abandoned with his modifications.
“It’s a vintage tank” “i don’t get all that nostalgic” “ I wouldn’t bother” Now let me go so I can fire up my 35 year old Infinity speakers
And mixing console,, 😂, don't they talk shite..
Right!! Paul’s full of shit on this one, and judged on the comment section, many others agree too. He’s, in not so many words just dogging on Carver as a brand, he’s done it multiple times with other brands, I feel he’s just using the vintage angle as an excuse to advise buying new, which he’s wrong about, at least in this situation. Sometimes maybe buying new would be better, but that’s not “always” the case, as you pointed out his Infinity speakers, he’s just the pot calling the kettle black here.
Those infinity speaker are re-built, new tweeters, new subs, new crossover, then Paul upgraded with a in-house built crossover and amps, So Paul is always after the best new sound. I bet you didn’t know that about his IRSV’s...
@@georgemoraleswork Why did Paul rebuild the IRS? In his own words he could've bought new speakers with the money it cost to rebuild them and the new speakers would've sounded better, I don't think so, I think you would have to spend many times the original price of any vintage audio component to best it's sound
@@shubunkin.goldfishtank Because cheap Carver isnt worth it to recap. Infinity IRS IV speakers are TOTL . If instead of cheap Carver were some good amp, recaping would be a must do. But not in case were recaping is more expensive than amp itself, and that is only possible when amp is the bottom line model.
I recapped an old Adcom MOSFET based amp with new TDK and Nichicon caps after the originals started to leak. HUGE improvement. Can’t say how much was due to just replacing caps that were out of spec as opposed to new vs old. Hugely. Little bit of $$$ at Mouser and a little bit of soldering.
i have an adcome 555ii i want to replace with those caps. thanks tor the comment
@@BrettsForest I had the GFA 5500. 👍
Trade it in on a new Bob Carver if you wish. We will service the M400 with modern caps and someone else will enjoy it for another 40 years.
Hey Paul, quick question. What are the little white speakers on the bench? I can't quite make out their name on my monitor and definitely not on my phone! Thanks!
Is there any kind of break in period or instructions for an old 1957 valco tube amp I just had recapped and the original 12" speaker rebuilt?
I recapped my 30 year old kenwood 7020 with elna silmic caps and it sounds better than it ever did and really enjoyed doing it! Cost about £100
Paul I can understand your view here as you’re a stereo gear manufacturer. I never bought another new gear since my first setup with a brand new Harman Kardon PM650 integrated amp, and a new pair of Allison CD7 speakers.
I recapped my Yamaha A-700. The difference was huge. I did it myself and costed 30 dollars.
i toke my old Kenwood from the mid 80s to the local Hifi store and first off the guy working was in awe since it was in pristine shape and i asked to hook it up to compare it with some new amps and to my hearing and my wife even the guy working there said mine was the best sounding under 1000 USD and that is with all original parts. sadly there is not anyone i can send it to for a check up market is quite bad here in Sweden so my options are limited so jealous of America in this regard
sure the new amps has more features like a remote and maybe phone app etc but man i love the sound of my Kenwood i sure miss that company
the probem is
1) Finding a good honest and reputable technician who will stand behind their work to do a racap/refurb correctly, bring an amp back to specs and even know what to do to reliably mod/upgrade it
2) Find a #1 that can do it at a reasonable price...
Most of them are hack jobs, dont know what theyre doing and will charge upwards of $1000+ for the service.... only to get back a unit that will be unreliable and blow up in 3 months
I am very lucky as I have a Sansui G7500 (my father's unit bought new) and a Sansui 9090 (i found for free).... i found a technician in my area who is recommended by many audiophiles to do outstanding work that will not break the bank. He works on Krell, Mcintosh etc.... whats most important to me is that he has experience with my G7500 and 9090 to know how to cap and mod.
He is charging me $900 CAD to do both, they need some serious work as the previous technicians butchered the insides, ... my G7500 i decided to recap, yes because of sentimental value, it was my dad's and i grew up with it... and as an audiophile myself, i will enjoy it no matter how it sounds
The 9090 is well work the recap... I will be re veneering the cabinet... and this sucker will sell easily to a Sansui collector for $2000CAD on the used market.... $1500 profit is not bad at all!
Bottom line, some pieces of gear are worth recapping.... and find a reputable technician who knows what they are doing... dont pay an arm and a leg
Indeed find someone or company with many reviews who knows what they are doing, not some guy you only know from eBay who just bought a soldering iron last week and plans to operate on your baby on his kitchen table....
I found a company in Michigan to do my Carver M-500(t) and C-1 Preamp. Even so, spending total less than 1/4th of what a comparable amp/preamp would sell for today.
Yeah, I'll need to get a quality DAC one day to feed them. Maybe PS Audio will create a great streaming DAC sometime...But going to be hard to compete with the Bluesound Node 2i...But maybe Paul could do it.
Thanks for bring up the 9090. I just was checking how much they were going for on EBAY a few days ago and was surprised! I had an 8080 and that was nearly as much. I like finding gear that I couldn't afford as a college student, and the 9090 was one...
Great and wise video! Thanks!
I had my 2 NYAL Moscode 300 amps from 1986 completely recapped end to end and direct wiring a few years back. Yes it cost as much as the amp did originally. BUT the improvement was amazing. A few weeks ago I stuck in a Synergistic Research orange ceramic fuse and that was big improvement in the midrange and highs as well. I found it still cheaper to recap at least this time compared to new in what it would take to replace these. Also these amps were my first step into high end back in the 80s. So it isn’t easy to part with them.
Depends a lot on the amplifier. The M400 (IIRC that's the one shaped like a cube) are an absolute miserable nightmare to service.
Late 80s is getting up there in age so I might be tempted to do it for reliability reasons if you plan to use the amplifier for a long time.
At technical correction for Paul: The capacitance usually doesn't change much as the cap dries out, but the equivalent series resistance goes up dramatically.
Some people go nuts, and I don't recommend that either. Most 1990s gear isn't suffering from cooked capacitors yet if it was well designed and used good-quality parts. I've got power amps from the 90s with 200,000 power on hours that are still running their original filter caps. A few have had the small-signal caps replaced, but certainly not all of them. Audible difference tends to be pretty small (usually it isn't audible) unless they're really cooked.
The small-value electrolytic caps are usually the problems. Big filter caps take a lot longer to dry out.
i re-capped my old cyrus amp, and i reckon it sounds better then most modern amps
How can you tell?
I've always agreed with Paul 100% except for today. I can't afford one of his amplifiers. Even if I could, I'm not sure I would invest that kind of money in something non-essential like that. Recapping/restoring an old amp like Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui, Yamaha, or even McIntosh can be a delight, and provide a device void of depreciation over time like how one of PS Audio's would experience. Sorry, Paul. We'll just have to disagree on this one.
I'm fortunate enough to be able to do my own amp recap and upgrade. If I had to pay someone to do it, then yeah, maybe I'd check out what 250W+ amps were available for in the $1,000+ range.
Nostalgia isn’t what it used to be.
I recapped and replaced out of spec resistors on a Pilot 216a preamp from 1960 and it sounds amazing. NO noise on any line input at all and I have to turn the volume up all the way to hear a tiny bit of hiss from the phono input. By contrast my McIntosh C24 is a cement mixer. Yes I like old gear. Iim saving up for some kit more current tho PS Audio:)
You can spend $80k on a new Hemi...or $80k on a classic Hemi...the new one will be old in 5 years but the classic...is a classic.
Whatever floats your boat! I like that vintage sound. People keep saying it's not as dynamic, it's rolled off, it's soft, tadatadatada. I have an old pair of Polk LSI bookies that have always been hard to get to sound their best. I tried a lot of amps. Then one day I pulled out an early 80s Ratshack receiver of 65 watts x 2. Old right! Caps out of spec, Right! Shouldn't sound that good, right! Let me tell you, those Polks NEVER sounded as good as they did on this receiver. Like a totally different speaker. Incredible. How is that possible? Would it sound even better recapped? Maybe, probably? But how does it sound THIS GOOD with no recapping? Makes no rational sense. Shouldn't be possible. Defies logic but my ears tell me different.
I absolutely agree with you. Great advise!
Hello Paul, I think a lot of the musicians out there do not understand that back then from late 1950s to early 1970s, those bands that everyone listened to had brand new amps at the time. They were not vintage amps they were using. The managers or record companies they signed contracts with provided new equipment to them. A lot of the tone came from the recording studios........... I replaced my caps and resistors on my vibrolux reverb and it sounds great........
Question is ....what caps would be used for recap?
If you would use cheap off the shelf electrolitics it will sound like it, if you or someone who knows what kind of cap should be used in what position and work on voicing this amp thru use of specific sounding caps than you could make it sound wondeful .
Nichicon Muze KZ or Audio Note Kasei will sound great in certain positions but not so good in others .
Same for large filter caps , Mundorf or Nichicon FG or KG etc.
Have fun with it
It's not as simple as that.
Sentimental value has to be considered here as well.
Re-caping has worked wonders for me in the past with a Densen DM10 amplifier and, in my view, to get another amp of similar sound quality (let alone looks), I would have spent five times the amount of replacing the caps.
I'd buy new if I could find a stereo receiver with manual or rotary bass and treble controls. They don't seem to exist.
Marantz have few models.
Paul you can relate, as the big Infinities are a definite refurbish and you stated the Genesis was better but not something on your bucket list.
I have a pair of wonderful KEF 105.1 and those require crazy amount of power just to work descent. I used a Pioneer SX-1250 on them and, well... I love the combination. Unfortunately it broke and I got myself a Pioneer M-90 which regarding to many "pro´s" should blow the socks of my old SX-1250. It didn´t... And then that broke to. Now I have borrowed some newer massive Rotel amp that REALLY should "blow the socks off" both of my Pioneers. It didn´t. Note that I am not talking about use them at a night club or something. I just want some cozy listening like the rest of us. But the only amp that has the true muscles of the ones I tried is that 45yo Pioneer SX-1250. So that´s what I look forward of getting fixed. And I wouldnt even dare to imagine what a PS Audio amp with that power would cost. Usually, if I ask some high end store about an equivalent in power to the SX-1250, they offer something in the price range of a new Mercedes.
A Pioneer SX-1250, now that's a beauty 😀
"I just want some cozy listening like the rest of us."
Ah, you have a way with words, my friend. 😊
Sorry to hear about your trials. Don't give up, and good luck!
all old Carvers are like your SX-1250 ,a lot of muscle watch ruclips.net/video/cJro26WxdaQ/видео.html
Paul, are you saying you can get an amp for say between $200-$400 (the cost of recapping an amp) that will blow away a really good amp 20 years old that has been recapped ? Please tell me of this amp you speak of, because I do not believe it
I myself am in the midst of recapping an amp from the late 80s, mainly for the challenge and experience. Its been quite an adventure in locating proper replacements, getting ones that dont fit, asking MOUSER for assistance to no avail. Wondering why the ones I removed have 3 leads and why I cannot find a 3 lead replacement. I will admit it was satisfying to hear the amp make music for the first time being it took me months of trial, $ savings & error. The funny part of it all was how easy it was to install the new caps once I finally figured out how to properly identify the replacements I needed : D
The ones with 3 leads were 2 caps in one can and can be replaced with 2 single ones of proper values,
@@leekumiega9268 That was my 1st impression, mind you im a total novice here! Turned out the 3rd lead was nothing at all even though its trace was in line with the neg lead on the board. I wanted to be sure though, eventually I came across a ref sheet from the cap maker (Nippon) and was able to find the recommended replacement type\series. Even better was that the new replacement had 5 leads on it, 3 of which were dummies, I just had to bend those off and with some finagling fit them in just needed some silicone to hold them in firm : D
I got a well-refurbished Denon beast for less than half the price of a new PS Audio Sprout. The Sprout is a sympathetic little thing but I like the big solid Denon better. However, it would be fun to test a Sprout in my setup.
Guess it all depends on cost. How much does it cost to recap that amp, compared to a new equivalent?
I think I need to be recapped. I'm over 20 yrs old!
I have a "like new" M400a hooked to a Rotel Preamp, and Polk S15 speakers. Sound is pretty great to me! :)
i "restored" a few amplifier by now, on really old amps with out of spec caps it made a little difference but usually it didn't and wasn't worth the price and effort. How i approach amplifier restorations now is I still replace the ones that have significant load on them like the filter caps but leave everything else alone if it measures fine and I leave a service record in the amp with what has been done and when.
I used Carver's repair service. Rita does good work.
Bob Carver is an amazing designer. Have his Cherry 180 amps and compared to ultra performance ones and it holds it's own. Have also an old Kenwood Amp that was reconditioned and it blew the socks out of a lot of solid state amplifiers. being a 1981 model. Smooth and high current with extremely fast transient response. Also have a Adcom GFA 555 along with a pair of Parasound JC HCA 2200 MKII Solid State amps blew away a lot of 6k modern amps. several room set ups in my house and never turn them off except the Tube Amps. Friends bring there stuff to compare, Matched with thier Pre Amp to keep synergy. Leave confounded.
Question! John From Montreal Canada: How is it that we didn't ended up with mini versions of P.A. systems for our house. I mean active directional sound cancellation arrays, active processing and crossovers, tuning and coverage software... Yeah you guessed it, I have been a live sound engineer for 25 years.
Hi John, I'm certainly no expert on P. A. but I've always had the impression that the techniques/equipment you are talking about are far more useful (essential even) in filling a very large room or concert hall with coherent sound,
I've always had the impression that it is much less needed in the average living room where you can get good results with 2 channels, this is certainly the case in UK living rooms which are generally the size of a shoe box!
I may be very wrong, but that is my understanding of it
I have a enlightened audio designs dsp9000 series 3 dac with a external power supply I had recapped back when black gate caps went out of production. All those fancy caps cost over $400 and another $600 or $700 in mods and upgrades (high speed low noise diodes, upgrade output stage etc) For Redbook playback it's still hard to beat. It was a low production (only 400 made) flagship dac the stereophine used as one of their references for years in the 90s. Those caps took forever to break in. I can see investing more $$ in a older well designed great sounding unit and making it better. Some older theta dacs would be worth it as well if you know where to get them serviced that's familiar with them. I was lucky as the upgrades and caps were done by some of the original designers of the dac back in the day. Designers tend to know where the best bang for your $$$ should be spent.
Definitely gonna be a fun one
Fix my old amp, no regular. Small money , plenty joy. Still, am looking for a new amp at the same time. Totally agrees with you🎉🎉🎉
It really depends, and in the case of the video is the recapping service will cost more than the original acquiring price.
I (or maybe also Paul) assume that specific gear is not a vintage monster here. I guess if we change the brand of vintage gear to ARC/Mcintosh or other. Maybe the answer will be different.
Putting new, fresh, upgraded caps in will make these old amps sound 'better than new' because capacitor technology has vastly improved in 30 yrs., plus the ability of the old caps to either filter, tune or store energy degrades over time. Caps are the weakest link in electronics because of this. There are far better Electrolytics & Polypropylenes that are electrically & sonically superior than what was available back then. This would cost a fraction of the cost to buy a new amplifier. I do this all the time to 30+ yo. Haflers with incredible results.
I would say just recapping with modern hifi quality capacitors would improve your amp to a higher performance quality than when it was made...many DIY-ers and enthusiasts do this to old vintage gear or cheaper made modern amps with great results.
I’m old school from the 60’s and 70’s. I used to love it when we would take our old tv tubes down to Rexall drugs and use the tester and buy a tube or two. If we couldn’t handle it the tv repair guy would make a house call and fix the tv. Now that’s old school.
I've recapped - one a 1997 solid state amp that blew the bridge rectifier as the caps had degraded so much it was pulling high ripple current (enough to blow a fuse). That got recapped with some repair replacement CMF resistors but not everything. The other a 1957 Phillips valve radio with old Philips black tar caps and a electrolytic on the mains input. Recapping it sounds great compared to before. Recapping old stuff works but it's up to you if you want to go crazy. For me I'll go for "normal" caps rather than the expensive audiophile caps. The amp wouldn't be worth it due to the design etc.
The caps. on my 30 year old Naim 250 deteriorated to the point where it blew the fuse on switching on: One recap later it's sounding as good as new and, hopefully, set good for another thirty years. It cost under £200 by a local specialist so money well spent; there's no way I could have (or wanted to) afford a new equivalent amplifier.
Reading down the comments, this is the *fourth* *time* you've said this.
Feeling lonely??
@@HareDeLune I believe if something's worth saying it's worth saying four times. At least I don't repeat myself. Or repeat myself. ;0) Tale care my friend
@@russputin6294
Reminds me of me old Irish grandmother, who used to take two pills; to be sure, to be sure. 😆
Hey, I'm looking to get headphones for the korg sv2. It's an electric piano. Can you please recommend me headphones that don't leak noise that still feel very airy when listening to them. So basically closed back that are as close to open back headphones.. if that makes sense.. I've heard some headphones have an issue with string residence sound. Any recommendations for headphones under $200 ?
Try the Kawai SH-9. They're made for Kawai by audio technica specifically to partner Kawai's digital pianos.
Beyerdynamic DT770 (80ohms version probably)
@@tjsmithson1598 I'm thinking to go with the akg k361/371 for the form factor..
I have a pair of 50s Roger power amps and a pair of 50s Leak amps both rebuilt, totally worth the investment. When it comes to transistor amps from the 70s not sure as it can be pricey to have a rebuild.
Contemplating whether to recap a Pioneer SA7500 mk2 which could be getting on for 45 years old now.
I just cleared a fault where one of the 2SA798's was failing in the PA, luckily i have spares from other stripped gear, so hording old components is fully justified :)
Just looking at the schematics there's only two low value electrolytics in the actual audio path per channel. Four if the phono stage is switched in.
I probably already have the caps.
If the PSU related ones checkout on an ESR meter and show correct or very close value and not leaking they can stay in there!
I have seen the main reservoir caps fail on these vintage Pioneers so they are a ticking time bomb i guess, like any aging electronics involving caps.
In my opinion, assuming your component wasn’t junk to start with, all components should be recapped. I have a Klyne SK-6 preamp I’ve had for decades that I recently had recapped by Klyne. Why? I love the preamp and to replace it with a comparable preamp would cost thousands of dollars. I have an EAD DSP-7000 Series 3 DAC that I also love. It was about $2,000 new 28 years ago. It’s currently out for recapping at a cost of around $350. I have a Yamaha T-70 tuner I bought in 1984. I thought I would recap it myself. I opened it up and I stopped counting caps at 30. Not happening because it wasn’t a great component to start with and it’s just not worth the trouble. Bottom line: Good component: Recap. Not so good component: Disposable. That’s my 2 cents.
It depends, if he’s still into an old recording format like myself, I can’t let cassette and minidisc go, luckily there are a handful of manufacturers still making receivers and inter graded amps with a tape loop, I think a new one would be the right choice
Good point regarding the better use of $$$ is to get a new amp... yet, sentimental value is very powerful and spending money rationally goes out the window then...
The caps. on my 30 year old Naim 250 deteriorated to the point where it blew the fuse on switching on: One recap later it's sounding as good as new and, hopefully, set good for another thirty years. It cost under £200 by a local specialist so money well spent; there's no way I could have (or wanted to) afford a new equivalent amplifier. I'd suggest getting your amps. serviced preemptively before a total failure; not only that but a physically leaking capacitor can cause internal damage by acid etching the p.c.b's. I'd shop around for an interdependent repairer; Naim wanted over three times the price I paid for a recap and the repairer upgraded the specs. too - better than like-for-like. I think when equipment gets to this age reliability is more than an issue than preserving the factory specifications; especially as uprated, improved components are now often available.
I think Paul has a good point, if it was a Pass labs or a Krell , then yes recap. The Carver was good for the money in its time. Sell the carver and get something used a few years old. 😀
Yes buy a used (Carver designed) Sunfire amplifier they sound even better with even more current to drive difficult speakers
I got a quote from Carver's authorized repair shop, and found that a plain chassis refresh was $229 USD for a C-1 preamp and $399 for a TFM-25 power amp. This will bring the specs to be like new. The pre-amp has 5 optional upgrades for sonic improvement averaging about $85 each. The power amp has one $65 upgrade plus you can choose from three colors of LED upgrades. Add shipping and insurance both ways to that value. So for me that would amount to about $1000 to upgrade both units. So now I'm thinking 'where would that $1000 be better spent in my stereo system?'. Speakers. Tube amp. Powerplant.
Oh yeah, I'm watching my Benjamin Miracord changer slowly lowering its fantastic empire cartridge to meet some great vinyl. Waiting for my Wharfedale speakers to light up the room with earth shaking bass.
If you DIY this can be an option. If you pay high price to get it done on an average vintage amp, I agree with Paul. In Canada there is a buzz around vintage amp, some sale them outragous price without real reconditionning, they slam few blue led on the analog meter to look good. Same with speakers, I was lucky to get a pair for cheap but some ask 300x more then last year for the same ones.
Agreed. Yes (Looking forward) . I won't believe electronic can last forever and always looking for better.
Good advice 👍
Previous video: Keep your vintage amp, sentimental value is huge, vintage amps are great
This video: I dont get nostalgia, get a new amp
Nice said, I like your statement.
It really depends on a few factors if it is worth it or not such as the age of the gear and condition and the cost. I'd say in most cases, yes, it is worth it to recap. The thing is as long as it is done by a competent tech. One thing correctly said is that you will hear a difference, no need for golden ears or and other Ludacris notion.
I'd would also submit that the older the gear the more worth it is. It is likely there is sentimental value, which I fully understand and should ALWAYS be counted. Aside from that though the piece itself should be considered. If it still meets all needs and sounds great to you, then by all means consider a recap.
A complete or partial recap should not cost all that much. Worst case I have ever heard is about $350. Using my own example: I have a Sansui 8080DB from the seventies. Sweetest sounding piece I have heard and I have heard a lot of modern high-end gear as well as mid-fi. I decided to get it recapped as it was showing signs of need. I bought it used around 2002 for $180. The cabinet is in rough shape and needs restoring. The face plate, knobs and such I already restored myself (was not easy, but worth it). I found a competent tech about 40 miles from me and took it to him. I got it recapped for $250.
The thing sounds so good that I based my big system build on the Sansui! I also put it up against a modern, new $10,000 amp (not naming) at a show back in 2016 and after the demo the manufacture turned to me and said "you don't need one of my amps". He enjoyed it as well.
So for $250 I bought about 20 more years of service from that lovely Sansui. I would put it up against any amp even at $10,000 confident that it could keep up if not slightly best some of them. (I'd put it up against any PS Audio gear gladly. Of course, it would be not that fair because the sound signatures are completely different, not better either way, that is subjective).
With gear as old as my example you have to bare in mind that it was a different time and build quality was priority as many such pieces were hand-built in Japan where quality control is a way of life.
The same can't really be said about late 80s gear as things started getting sketchy quality-wise in the late 70s, high-end or not!
Today takes much more caution to get a quality piece and a lot more money in many cases. There is good value to be had out there, but it is not obvious and takes work to find.
So sure, in my example, I paid more for the recap than I did for the piece itself, but considering how it sounds and the fact that when new back in the day it sold for around $600 to $700 and at the time I bought it it was going for $400 (it has gone up since then a little), I'd say it was a good move to have it recapped and I have not even added sentimental value yet.
So, yes, it can be worth doing, depending.
i recapped my vintage technics amp, while i was doing that bought a newer NAD 316 bee V2, stuck with NAD, less buggy, deeper more detailed bass.
Congratulations! 🥇🥈🥉
if you really love the sound or want to keep it then do it! you will also prolong its life doing so!
Great advice. Seems like in the last 5 years there has been a bunch of very capable economy amps that probably outperform the old stuff.
@Tonytheknife I don't have anything specific in mind. I just see channels like Thomas and Stereo showcasing stuff that seems pretty capable at an affordable price. There are also some great old amps that can be recapped and continue working their magic.
Help... I bought a little amplifier, 2x50w + 100w, 50w per left and rigth & 100w to woofer. I think it's a class D. I have no ideer what power supply to buy for it :( oh, and it's 12-24v DC input.
Maybe a 400w because inefficiency? how many amps? this is so confusing.
There is something special about recapping and old audio gear if wont part with it. There were many awesome audiophile gearz back in the day. Some are worth recapping especially when your used to the sound. Yamaha M4 for example. It is a very special awesome sounding amp. Many ppl i know that has one, plan to recapp or already have recapped. Recapping is not as expensive.
Dear Paul,
Most of us get into vintage gear because we cannot afford the equivalent 21st century quality gear, such as your PS components.
I have been a musician and music affectonato since I was 9.
Dad had Golden Age analog gear he brought home from Hong Kong when he was Navy.
Now it is my turn.
With a family of 5 in the Pacific Northwest on union Railroad pay, I can't do used Mcintosh let alone PS.
Thank you for your videos and vast wisdom
Steven Kettel Ii
Seattle, WA
Late here, but have that exact amp. Bought it new 1980. Recapped in 2021. Definately improved it but wished I asked for uprade caps.
Just bought a new $2500 amp with premium caps. Its maybe 20% better sounding at best.
So no Paul, the $360.00 repair bill vs a new $360.00 amp aint gonna cut it.
I get what you are saying, but it obviously depends on the brand/model, rather than its age. For example, it was totally worth recapping my 35 year old Parasound HCA-2200 II, since for $235 I have amazing Class A amp up to 7 watts, and another couple hundred watts A/B after that, which competes with many much more expensive amps.
What about compensating for the loss of capacitance by using "bypass" capacitors?
I've read 99% true....you are nostalgic Paul...
I have to agree. I like the sound of my old Pioneer SX-550. But, my new ONKYO TX-8140 leaves the Pioneer in the right lane by miles.
depents of the amplifier,if you have a pre like Electrocompaniet ec-3 and Electrocompaniet aw-100 yes it worth
To talk about carver I got new carver tfm-22. 40ish years ago that amp is a tank
I think one item to consider, that we should be considering more of (and is bad news for NEW gear sellers) is recycling/conservation -- all the old audio equipment sold, bought, used, failed, and sent to a landfill somewhere --- probably enough old gear so that every adult on the planet could have a nice receiver at least. Imagine we had a ROBUST and AFFORDABLE system that reclaimed that gear, refurbished it, and resold it --- just imagine all of that aluminum, steel, copper, PCB, plastic NOT being used and gone to waste forever. This, IMO, is a major upside of recapping/restoring old gear --- less waste, all around, than buying, using, dumping, buying, using, dumping, on and on and on. To get on a soapbox, about 60 or so years ago, you spent money on something; it failed; you took it in for repair, and the repairs did NOT outweigh the cost of just "buying new". You didn't just trash it and buy a new one from Wal-Mart, Amazon, Target. All of these raw materials have to be mined, extracted, fabricated -- using up energy, clean water, creating pollution, and then buried in the ground using our common practices in the West. I am so tired of the wastefulness that American society has trained us all to be a part of. Just two cents on another, rarely mentioned benefit of repairing old gear. I'm super excited to see all the passion around vintage gear, and so many people learning how to repair/refurbish things. Gives me a little hope.
Great someone with Carver please do it I did to my Carver HR 772 receiver and it sounds better than ever. It cost me just as much as I paid for it back in 1992 a lot was shipping. Just Do It.
I recapped my old Krell. Did cost me about $500,-. Sound improved considerably. Should I have bought a new $500,- amp and have better sound? I really wonder so if anybody can shine a light...
You won't find anything new that can even come close to your Krell for $500.
I actually do agree with Paul. However, like his "bad" example of the '55 Chevy, when you do a retoration of the old car with modern parts/engine, they are, in some cases better than the new "beer can" people are driving around. Yup, it's a tank. Some days, I would rather have the "tank" than the beer can!
That being said, I have several old Carver components (built in the late '80's/early '90's) which need to be recapped. Since I do have the proper tools to do the job, complete JBC Solder/rework station, I will do the rework myself. Getting some of the new electrolytic caps in the proper sizes and configurations will be a challenge. Ebay has several "recap kits" for the various components. Not sure if I trust these or not. As I am familiar with the electronics parts world and how to get things from various suppliers, I will probably take my time, make a list of what I need and get the parts in increments. I should end up with some "like new" components once I am finished.
You see, this is interesting - I have customers coming in to me to buy for example, an SX980 Pioneer receiver (1970's) , getting rid of their modern kit ...and too often in the showroom I hear their words.." The modern audio is soulless and compressed" ... A little while back as another example, we pitched an ancient set of restored M205 Meridian run by your old (1980's? ) PS 4.6 preamplifier against his newish AudioLab Omnia... The ancient system was preferred. Why.? ...we heard from the client; "presence, punch, sweeter violins - stage width, especially on the phono stage". ...so whats going on ??? ... I suspect because people arent comparing like we can. Plus electrons, dB's, SPL, electrical and mechanical impedance, open air acoustics are the same now as they were back then. Mind you our products stop at about £3000...things might be different when just a power supply costs £7000 and a whole system is £40k to £100k + + +
At the risk of potentially disturbing a brittle internal connection or worse stressing the pc board I would leave the carver amp alone. Here's a idea rip out the internals and fit a class d module inside using the front faceplate for asthetics? ??? Just repaired a 80s mixer but it's spaghetti inside so left caps...it works as it it
I got a 1982 amplifier and it's never been recapped and it works fine