As a poor retiree I have settled for used gear. I lucked into winning an auction for the Adcom gfa-555 power amp and it made me realize that the Carver M-500 I'd been using for a couple of months desperately needed repair as it lacked both high and low freq. sound that the Adcom outputted quite well. Anyway, after getting my grubby mitts on a wonderful-sounding pair of ADS L810's, I thought about how their 94db efficiency would hold up with less power, so I hooked them up to the Emotiva a-100 Flex amp I'd been using for headphones, and the sound was every bit as good as the Adcom. All of this is in near-field so none of the amps were ever pushed very hard at all, but the 50wpc Emotiva has proven to be everything I could want for this desktop. Love the vids, Gene!
You got me chuckling on the "to be honest, if you're listeninig to it so loud, you don't have any hearing left to begin with" ...lol! Stellar one, as always. love the research there!
Nicely explained and very lucid. I read somewhere that Hitachi had the licenses for class G, class H and magnetic field amps and licensed them to Soundcraftsmen and Carver respectively. I have a Hitachi class G receiver (SR-804) purchased in 1979 and still use it today. I keep it serviced and in good order. I find that it can be on for hours, sometimes eight hours and only gets barely warm to the touch. Sound is clean, clear almost crisp. I found the cost (in 1979) of this receiver very compatible with other similar powered brands. It cost me $340 in 1979.
Extremely well explained. I have a class A Tube EL34 2 x 12 Watts single-ended running in ultra-linear with a Tube preamp, a Technics 2 x 55 watts class A and a Sony 2 x 50 watts class AB and use a home built 1/4 wavelength 14feet transmission pipe floor standing enclosures running duel concentric 61/2 inch drivers with 25% of the spider removed for greater compliance and efficiency and at 8ohms with balanced passive crossover and Zobel network with 25-30Hz (dependant on room placement) to 20Khz response. By a long way, the Tube amp has far more control and with an HD source is breathtaking! So much more harmonic detail and presence and the image is stunning with depth and can 'feel' the music. I think the trade-off of less efficiency is worth the results. All achieved with a low budget in mind and 100s of hours of effort.
I know a guy here in Sweden that help heat up the warm water in the house with his home built Nelson Pass Class A amp and the water also cools the amp so Win Win for everyone.
I had a friend who was an audiophile. On the other hand I am a musician and our interests matched at some point. I learned so much from him, but the most important thing he told me is never to become an audiofool. Since then I simply love science and objectivity. Thanks for this great explanation.
I have always used A/B because I thought I paid more for less with A and that A was just old stuff for stubborn old guys. But now 20 years later I'm looking to get my next 2-chanel stereo after not having one the last 4 years I found Class A and have totally fallen in love. Nothing A/B sounds quite like Class A. I have listened to sooo many High End A/B amps and nothing is as smooth and powerfull at the same time. I also think that it's impossible to measure "Good Sound". You can have two cables made out of the same conducting material but put together different that will measure the same but sounds totally different. In my opinion the only quality test you can do on hifi is an old fashion listening session. Hifi is in the eye/ear of the beholder. It's like art, you can't measure art and say that's good or bad you can only look and make your mind up. Something you love I might not so who's right. Well that's all from me and have a blessed day
I changed from Class A and Class AB to Class D amp two years ago. First is that the heat is not a problem at all with Class D, esp since I live in Florida! The Class D sounds great! This presentation is excellent and would rec it to all for a good clear rep of the different types of amps available.
Top class analysis of the various types of amps ..Thank you ! Audiophiles / Gene are on another level of understanding from 99% of reviewers . No bullshit , just facts , it makes it easier when you’re an expert in the subject matter ..and Audioholics def is 👍
I am a producer , i work with sound forever , and let me tell you , why would you need more then 20W , i have 2x200W speakers , 8inch 2 way system , quad amped , every driver its own amp , 75W tweeters and 125W bass . That is a good system , clear as day , no distortion , i use about 20W of it usually even less . So whats the issue you ask ? The issue is music is not a perfect thing , perfectly clean speaker and amp , thats clinical , its not musical .. So that is what i use because im a producer , i have to have clean sound . But when im listening , Class A nothing else . No discussion . Its not a bout measurements , its how it sounds . I want that soft Clip , i want that less hten perfect dynamics . The Amp Sings and adds richness to the sound . So much that producers copy sounds of some machines , some Compressors and things . Hence let me tell you , if you are an experienced audio person, you dont need more then 20W , so Class A and that is it . Of cours you can have more then one amp for times when 20W is not enough .
Thanks Gene. This is one of the best videos I've seen from you guys, and watched quite a few. Really helping rooks plan well, save, and avoid pitfalls. Maybe even inspiring taking courses at uni. Thanks for doing this.
very good video killing the myth of audiophiles and bringing rationality into sound reproduction. that's the way i believe audio should be treated in marketing. thanks.
I currently use a Crown XLS1002 Class D amp - a professional amp. I heard many good things about it through the grapevine, especially about how "neutral" it sounds. I'm an old audio tweak who started in the 1970s. I've worked at Radio Shack and also Best Buy among my many retail audio experiences. The old "guiding principle" was straight-wire-with-gain. The best stuff was equipment that got out of the way, letting you get into the presence of the original recording. For years I used an SAE power amp that was reputed to be more neutral than any made at the time. (Mine was made in 1975.) I found that (after break-in!) the Crown was even more open and neutral. I use a Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram Generator with it, and I am getting imaging and presence that eliminates the need for surround or other multi-channel. Gene, if you haven't taken a couple of hours to listen to these Crown XLS DriveCore2 amps, you're missing out. Oh, and it's ice cold, even after 8+ hours of use - the fan has never turned on.
Thanks for the video, would please provide a recommendation of two amplifiers for each category that you mentioned. I think that would be extremely helpful.
Crosley, Sherwood, realistic, RCA, oh wait those are all terrible brands unless you like distortion. Why don't you just look at the specs or the best way listen to them, your ears don't hear data printouts and specs.
Audioholics It would be awesome to see how DriveCore technology from TI (Crowd XLS are using) would look on papers compare to UcD and Hypex N-Core. Excellent reviews and very informative tests and info from your web site, Thanks Gene
Gene, sounds like your enterprise is growing nicely. I am available to outsource some testing or consulting. MSEE E&M -antennas and RF development and Audiophile for 30 years. Keep up the good work! Measurement first and foremost. Listen well.
Hey Gene, Egg cooker here. As an engineer and audiophile, I use a combination of internal amp channels and separates to power my 5.2.2 system. Class D is coming along but fails to provide the dynamic headroom therefore requiring over spec'd power requirements. Also the effect of switching noise coupling into source paths concerns me and I see no testing of it. I agree class A is bit much for anything high power and more than 2 channels, However, for my main channels I always use a good class A/B separate amp. Current system: 5.2.2- Legacy Whispers FL FR Center, Driven by Adcom 550's : Celestion F30 Surrounds, Just added height channels to front with cheap BIC bookshelves , Yamaha TSR-7810 AVR. Next Upgrade: 5 Channels of class A/B tube power amplification. Dynaco MkIII's fronts, Craftsmen monoblock center, Dynaco ST70 for Surrounds. All are being rebuilt/designed with upgraded power supply boards and caps. Distortion specs acknowledged, there is no power sag and the dynamic tonal quality of these amps in my opinion is better than all but very high end AVR and most separates. The All 5 channels run < 600 watts wide open and efficiency or not, these things still outperform most amps in any price range. They will sit atop my old school solid oak entertainment center for visibility of the tubes and near intake vents for my HVAC system in the walls. Listen well.
Love me some Class D amps. I have two Crown XLS-1500's running off my receivers preamp outs. One is set to High Pass for my Klipsch front speakers. The other one is set at Bridged / Low Pass for my Klipsch sub. These Crowns put out over 500 watts into 4 ohms in stereo, and over 1500 watts bridged into 4 ohms. Is this why I have tinnitus?
I had a pioneer sc 35. Beast of a amp. Very efficient and it drive all my 7 channels simultaneously with no problem. Amp didn't get as hot as other typical av receivers. Audio was in my experience superb. I use 8 to 4 ohms speakers with ease. Unfortunately its life ended because I had a bunch of toddlers who thought my amp was yogurt approve.
Been slamming a Fosgate T500-bdCP at 1-ohm for five years now. Love the constant power capabilities & being able to internally drop load. Two 12" two-ohm subs ... Wired in & it can auto-switch to 1-ohm. Car audio ... solid electrical. The new classes available to us, especially in car audio, has made all the difference. PS: Yeah, my Fi Audio subs are WAAAAAY underpowered.
I run four beautiful Onkyo M-504 power amplifiers with my 7.1 channel home theater system and they are the most wonderful sounding "space-heaters" I've ever known. I do most of my movie/tv watching in the winter so the extra heat is actually welcome. I'm not sure these are genuine Class-A or not, but these beauties heat the room like Class-A's. They sure have great audio quality specs and are dead silent when on. Any noise you get, if any, comes from external sources. :-)
Hi Gene. Awesome video as always. Currently using Emotiva Gen 3, 3 channel. So far am impressed with the output. Usually listen to lots of stereo music for hours and when I touch it it's still cold to the touch. Makes me wonder sometimes if it's really working but am sure it is. Cheers. David.
14:20 Honest question. When viewing any chart, it's imperative to note the scale. Here we see, what looks like, 0.75db of variation in frequency response between all loads tested. Am I reading that right? 0.75db is barely an audible difference. And we're talking only at 30kHz? Though the overall frequency response is crap, the discussion at hand was regarding the change versus the load presented, yes?
The 0.75dB variation is not between the loads tested; it is between the 8 channels of the amplifier, when tested with 8 ohm loads. With a 4 ohm load, the 3dB peaking at 30KHz is not present, but as loads go higher than 8 ohms (which many loudspeakers do within certain frequency ranges), the unit tends towards instability. That was the primary point that Gene was making - there is a serious design issue.
@@marianneoelund2940 Ahhh thanks. Yeah I noticed the channels listed on the Key. But from what he was saying, I thought maybe the Key is automatically generated onscreen after each run or something.
I have a Proton D1200...I *think* it uses a variation of a Class G amp. They called it "DPD," "Dynamic Power on Demand." Rated at a conservative 100W per channel, they typically had about 7.7 dB of headroom.
one of the best multi-channel class D amplifiers ever made (at a reasonable price at least) was the Sherwood A-965, it was a 7 channel beast that pushed 7 channels at 100 watts each, and tests showed it was clean up to 120 watts, and driving two channels could push as high as 160 watts at 8-ohms. I wish I had one, they have become a rare find in recent years.
Great video! I have Rowland 925 monoblocks with Rowland Coherence II preamp, KEF Blades, Esoteric X03 SACD, Rega P10 table and Clear Audio Balance+ phono stage. An almost fully-balanced system. Audio heaven!
Hi Gene, I’m running a Pass Labs XA-30.8. It provides 61 Watts of pure class A regardless of impedance. After that it goes in class A/B. I use it with a pair of 100db efficient Klipsch towers. They were the top of the line Klipsch in 2006. Together they provide plenty of oomph. I’ve had the Pass for just over a year. The Klipsch never sounded so good!
I am currently commissioning a guy to build a custom class A tube amp for me. The amp design is based on the Unison Research Simply Italy schematics. I save 700€ over buying the Unison Research amp. The custom amp will use bare wire for all components and will use better parts. So this amp should last a long time and be easy to service. I will pair this amplifier with wideband speaker towers (using 1 driver) based on the Audax AM 21 driver. I am stoked. Wideband drivers combined with tube amps sound so life-like. The speakers are so efficient, they only need 1~3 watts. So the modest 10W amp output is plenty.
I use a Sony proprietary S Master Digital amplifier, so am i using the best in class or is it just another technical jargon, as they claim with the S-Master digital amplifier, a simplified, full digital signal path, the S-Master amplifier reproduces digital audio signals without the multiple analogue stages required by conventional amplifiers. The result is not just more power, but significantly less distortion from heat build-up.
Well informed Gene. I always said amplifiers and sound are like a car and engine, a Chevrolet does what a Mercedes does. But, will it give you the prestige and name brand feeling like the other? Amplifiers were perfected in the 90's already, they are just becoming more efficient with newer technology and capacitators. For sound quality, there are many factors in getting that perfect sound from the source, room treatment, placement, etc... There are people who spend $100k for a perfect system and swear they sound better. than a $1k system. I've used my vintage amps and speakers, and I don't need anymore; I've show friends at a garage sale to get equipment for $1k and listen to it, and see how good it sounds. I think a company like Emotiva or Schiit gives you that quality vs. McIntosh or Accuphase. People are just spending money on brand recognition. Run two Emotiva HC-1 mono and bang, you have the best 2 channel stereo amplifier for the next 10 years. For movies any receiver will cut it.
4 года назад
Could you guys do a head phone video? Like pre amps and how to match them?
I'm running a class A/B Denon AVR -2307CI and using it in a 2 Chanel system. I'm doing this because the amplifier is good, but a few of the digital inputs have gone out. I'd like to upgrade to a tube preamp (Schiit Saga) with a Crown XLS, XTI or XLI class d amplifier because of their reputation and you get so much power for the money, but I am not willing to sacrifice on sound quality. What do you recommend? Speakers are ELAC UB-5 Slims.
A space heater? I’m using Class A Pass Labs INT-60 into a pair of 4 ohm Tekton Double Impacts for stereo and it sounds amazing. Also an INT-150 Class A/B which also is amazing. A pair of Emotiva XPA-1 monoblocks on PSB Stratus Goldi’s as front speakers while using UPA-7 powering the rest of the Mirage speakers in 7.2 surround systemI. ’m still trying to understand the differences of Class A vs A/B since one of these Pass Labs amps has to go. Which one do I keep? 🤔
Thanks for the video - I have a Yamaha A-S3000 integrated 2 channel amp. I guess it might be class A/B, however I have never seen anyone describe what amplifier class it is. Is there a way of figuring out what type it is? Thanks
Yes it's class AB. You can tell by the linear power supply and large heatsinks. Also, most of Yamaha's receivers and integrated amps are still class AB and very good designs at that.
Re: what type of amplifiers do we use? Just wondering if anybody is using feed-forward, pre-distortion types (from the radio frequency world), that use DSP's to compare inputs and outputs, and add an inverted correction signal to the input to cancel any distortion on the output. That way they can be efficient and ultra-linear.
HI There Gene and All, can you help me please? I am wanting to upgrade my system to something extremely good quality and powerful. Currently I am running a Sugden A21 class A amplifier with Celef three-way speakers (I believe that company became the modern day Proac) I am keen to get a really very good, Maybe a good modern Class D Amp, hopefully not the most expensive one on the planet; but one definitely up to the job of bringing the best out of the Arendal 1723 monitors or even the towers. Also of course happy to hear any other recommendations of reasonably priced good quality speakers? Thanks in advance Kestrel.
As always, great info Gene, thanks for sharing. I never considered class D amps before now but maybe I"ll check them out due to your findings. Keep the great videos coming!
hey Gene I have a 6 month old Cambridge Azur 851 A Integrated Amp it's fine. I have a PS Audio Stellar pre-amp/dac hooked to it. However, I gotten intrigued lately with Jeff Rowland amp have a chance to pick up a 525 Amp (class D) vs. the x/t(A/b ) in the Cambridge. Which to think is better and more importantly better sounding and clarity? Would it be worth the $2,400 or diminishing returns ?
Hi Gene, I am planning to purchase an AVR and considering the Denon AVRX4500H or Marantz SR6013. I am setting up my new house for Dolby ATMOS (5.2.4) and would be using my AVR for Movies/Music. I have not in person heard the quality of their sound output as I couldn't find any demo showrooms in the place I currently live. So I am banking on the internet reviews and make the purchase online. That's how I mostly do shopping and It works for me. If I have to decide between the two brands, which one would be better purchase for sound quality? My living room is about 12x10 sqft and I wouldn't drive them too loud. If not between these two brands, do you suggest something better in the same price band? What type and brand of speakers to go for (bang for the buck vs no budget constrains)? Please share your thoughts. Thank you for putting out such a wonderful and informative video on sound engineering.
The quick answer is. Class-A full power on transistors for best sound. Class-B only power on transistors when there is sound in and it can create unfortunate audible things when transistors turn on. Class-AB. transistors are always on with a little power and never turn off completely. A class-D amplifier or switching amplifier is an electronic amplifier in which the amplifying devices (transistors, usually MOSFETs) operate as electronic switches, and not as linear gain devices as in other amplifiers. They operate by rapidly switching back and forth between the supply rails, being fed by a modulator using pulse width, pulse density, or related techniques to encode the audio input into a pulse train. The audio escapes through a simple low-pass filter into the loudspeaker. The high-frequency pulses are blocked. Since the pairs of output transistors are never conducting at the same time, there is no other path for current flow apart from the low-pass filter / loudspeaker. For this reason, efficiency can exceed 90%.
Great information! I currently have a pionneer sc 2023 class D for home usage. Do you think it has a good output filter has you explained? Or is it any good?
Hi, if there is no transformer used, can we say it's class D amp like in my LG BH 6340H blu ray home theatre when I opened to see what's inside in it. I also got SONY str dn1080 with wharfedale speakers & I like the sound of both. Thx
I have gone from a heavy yamaha integrated amp to a smsl ad18, my power bill came down, and the sound is like removing another grill from the speakers, to me it's awesome. going from cinch to usb for the signal helped too i suppose.
I have class A across the front soundstage with class AB for all the other 8.2 channels. 200 Watts per channel minimum all around the theater room, Adcom, Kenwood, Yamaha, B&K and Carver to be specific. Okay so I have a lot of power available for sound quality and effects. It is worth it for me.
Jene, I want to ask about the Class B amplifier cause I own one. That Denon DVR-2802, its a Class-B amp 7.1 channel. But i am running 5.1 channels on it. Some Old models front speakers like AKAI SW-302 (Modified crossovers & tweeters). I had marrantz Class A amp and it really sounds something like I've never heard before. It never matched with my speakers :(
It would be great if you compare the consumer D amplifiers with professional D amplifiers from companies such as QSC, Crown, Powersoft, etc. These commercial level amps are extremely reliable. They drive multiple speakers and are designed to work for hours without a break.
My take away from this very nice video is that if my priority is the best possible sound, for instance to drive a 2 channel audiophile system, Class A amplification is the best possible choice with appropriate caveats regarding budget, listening space size, desired listening levels and speaker sensitivity. If those considerations demand more than about 20 watts, then Class AB may be a better choice. If those considerations demand more than about 200 watts, then Class D should also be considered and may prove the best compromise. If my priority is minimizing my electrical consumption (or $ outlay) and sound quality is secondary, such as multi-channel AV system, or a music system for casual uncritical listening, then well chosen Class D likely offers the best compromise. One concern I do have unique to Class D is that the output filter is a reactive LC circuit, and most amp testing simulates speakers with a simple resistive load. Speakers are not resistors, but rather are reactive LCR loads in their own right, which therefore will interact with the Class D output filter circuit quite differently than a simple resistive load. Hopefully that interaction doesn't result in audible distortion, but testing the amp with a resistive load will not reveal whether or not that is the case. The only test that can is to use the actual speakers chosen for the system as the test load, since each speaker design offers unique LCR circuit characteristics. This issue is well known, much studied, and I hope, largely solved.
Gene, another great video! One question, please. Why have manufacturers not launched a multi-channel (5/7/9 or 11) Class D amp for hooking up to AVRs to get better power to their home theater speakers? Spending $1500 on a receiver to only get ~40-50 watts when all channels are driven is pretty pathetic.
Yea the industry is slow to adopt Class D and to do it right, it's still costly. Thankfully most midpriced AVR's have preouts to add power down the road if you need it.
Hi Gene. great video!! I have a Denon X3400 with Elac Unifi lineup as home theater. I was planning to get the Outlaw 5000. But after watching your video, it got me thinking about a 5 channel class D amplifier. Any suggestions??
Any of the Pioneers, regardless of generation, that are running the ICE Power amps will do. I saw a test done by an audio store owner where the Pioneer SC25, rated 140watts, held true to 140watts under 2ch load and roughly 90 - 100 watts under 7Ch load. This was put up against an equivalent Yamaha model, which, in that owners test, the Yamaha (rated 140 watt) output 180watts under 2Ch, but drastically fell down to 40 and even 25 watts at 5 - 7ch load. In his testing, the Yamaha ended up blowing out its power supply, and he sent it for RMA. Of course, I would always recommend using multiple 2 channel power amps and using a Receiver as the DAC/Switch. Most modern receivers support pre outs. What you save in not buying an over priced receiver, you spend in amps. At the very least, Power the FL FR with a 2 channel.
I’m about to buy a 4 channel amp for my F-150. I put component speakers in each door. So, I have 4 woofers, 4 crossovers and 4 tweeters. They’re rated at 125 watt rms each. I don’t have a lot of money. So, I can’t decide between the Rockville DB45 or the Taramps DS800x4. The Rockville is class a/b and the Taramps is class D. Each have enough power but which one will be clearer? Have you any knowledge of either? You obviously know exactly what you’re doing. Any advice for me?
Great video good explanation. My first amp was a Yamaha CA1010 integrated amp, it sounded great. Then i got a NAD 3020 that also sounded great sadly it went up in smoke one night. Now I have a NAD Viso1 bluetooth speaker and it sounds fantastic. I know what a good system sounds like I built my own speakers for one set i used Phillips drivers with a 12inch woofer mid and tweeter. For my 2nd set i used an Electro Voice 15inch woofer with a horn tweeter. I used to place the Phillips speakers on top of the EV speakers and drive all 4 speakers with that Yamaha amp it played very loud would blow your hair back. I don't listen at those levels these days but that NAD Viso1 speaker can play very loudly indeed it has PSB speakers in it and is very accurate and dynamic, if you have not heard one of these you should check them out. They have to be considered the best value in audiophile sound, you will be impressed.
Very interesting, I was using my dad’s old Carver Amp and preamp but it needs taking into the repair shop to get it looked at. The preamp is a Carver Model C-1 High Fidelity Control Console Sonic Holography Preamplifier has sonic hologram processing technology for a 3D sound stage. The amp is a Carver Model M-1.5t Magnetic Field Power Amplifier High Headroom Low Feedback Power Amplifier with 350 watts per channel RMS Class A. It doesn’t have transformers in it and it’s smaller than a VHS/DVD combo player and weighs half as much and has not one switch or dial on the whole thing including an on off switch,you have to turn it on and off at the wall, it has an LED power indicator and 2 columns of LEDs to indicate the power output of the speakers once you turn the volume past half way on the preamp. The LEDs rise higher as you turn the volume up until the top 2 start flashing and if you leave it too high for too long it will trip out the speaker protection because they are being overheated, not because the amp is pushed too hard and there’s next to no distortion at that level either! You can hook up a lot of speakers to the one amp and it will just be adding more sound output to the listening room the more speakers you add until you blow the fuse at which stage you get a bigger fuse and you blow that fuse then you may want to turn it down a bit because your whole neighbourhood pushed out of their house lol! We used to have 4 large old school speakers hooked up 2 Realistic 160 watts each and 2 made up boxes adding to 230 watts each and with all 4 going they would be so loud but still clear.
Are there any differences in sound quality between pro style amps like the crown XLS range compared to the more tradition HiFi class d amps? How are pro amps so powerful and cheap?
Most pro amps are designed to be loud with fidelity being a secondary concern. If you see a proamp claiming 1kwatts of power and it only weighs 12lbs and costs only $500, RUN! Almost none of these cheap proamps disclose fullbandwidth power. If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
I am running an Austrian AYON Crossfire iii tube amp. A single ended, class A amp. giving 2x30 W weighing about 95 pounds. I drive a pair of Martin Logan ESL Summit X. Yes, it gets warm in my man cave but the sound is silk smooth, warm (LOL) and just beautiful. The amp is actually very modern. It has internal digital control function but no digital circuits in the signal path.
Not technical? I didn't understand the schemes at all xD Anyway, very good summary though, but what do you think about hybrids? I have a hybrid 150/250 W into 8/4 Ohm Vincent amp that has Class A tube amp portion for the first 15W for the mids and highs and Class D for the low end. How efficient is that comparing to the mentioned types?
I use NAD C- 388 integrated amplifier (D) used A and A&B power before but I made the Jump to D Power and I'm impressed plenty of power controls the speakers very well runs cool and has 90% efficiency never looked back
Hmm the SC-09 may be a different animal. Not sure if they used the same mediocre ICE module the SC-07 did. I bet it's the better module that can drive 4 ohm loads.
Does anyone know that type of topology Bob Carver used with his Phase linear , Carver and Sunfire amplifiers with his " tracking down converter "? They ran very cool and were rather light for their power rating and the sound was phenomenal in it's day for the price .If it was class D he was really ahead of his time as Phase linear was in the 70's.
Hi Gene I'm look to find out what would be the best approach between a power amp like Outlaw 5000 or a Monolith 7X200 watts with an AV receiver like the Denon AVR-X4400H or go with a Preamp processor and a Power amp for a small dedicated room of about 14X9. I intend to use it for home theater of 5.2.4 speakers for starter and maybe add more speakers in the future(not search). Thanks I like your video and your articles, they are really good.
Thanks for going beyond manufacturers’ specs. I’d like to see a much higher impedance linearity test though. Your graph is centered at zero ohms and tops out at 8. It would be much more helpful to see it start at zero with the top somewhere around 30 ohms. (A “4 ohm” driver isn’t actually 4 ohms; that’s its minimum)
What about the Colorado based Jeff Rowland Design Group offerings all with switchmode powersupplies. Jeff Rowland makes ICE power poweramps for over two decades now and is considered one of the best in business and highend of course.
Hi, Gene. With the exception of my Luxman MQ 360 tube preamp (I'm pretty sure it's Class A), all the rest of my amplifiers (both SS and tubes), integrated or power, are Class AB. One question I've been wonder about: why if Class D were used in portable devices' audio outputs,, such as smartphones, tablets and the like? Is this amplifier topology available in VLSI chips? Thanks a lot for the video.
What are your thoughts on sonos amp ( 250w x 2 @ 4ohm ) of latest generation? I am driving Sonus Faber Sonetto 1 bookshelves with it ( and i love the way they sound ). I cant shake the feeling that i'm missing out on more fidelity/soundstage/transparency out of my speakers when i look at all these huge, fancy looking setups with tubes and shit sticking out all over the place and speaker wires as girthy as my shaft. Should I get a better amp or is this particular Sonus Faber model too entry level to really matter? at what point would you recommend upgrading amps? would you even bother pairing a super high end speaker with a puny amp like this? my main reason for going with sonos is because i really like their overall software integration and how you can make it disappear in your home (i am not a fan of huge racks of equipment dominating my listening space ). Then again, i'm also the type of listener that still uses amazon basics cables (far less girthy), so maybe im just not high end enough for a superior amp? All of the reviews so far for the AMP have been...well. not very technical to put it mildly, there is a 4 star review by what hifi, but i feel like it was more about its aesthetics and packaging rather than a full dive into its performance and measurements.
Hi, I was interested to hear that you are running Sonetto 1 bookshelves. I am seriously thinking about buying a pair. I have a Cambridge Azur 851A stereo amp (200W into 4 ohms) and that would not be a problem to drive the Sonetto's. I'm no expert, but think your amp should be fine. Can I ask how you find the Sonetto's? They are also beautiful looking speakers! I have a very small listening room and am very concerned about boomy/muddy base resonances so was thinking to trade down to a smaller monitor (e.g. 5" inch woofer down to 55Hz) and filling in the base with a good subwoofer...But I am very tempted by the Sonetto's. P.S. for speaker cables - try the Kimber Kables, they are great, and Gene likes them too!
@@marcfoss7687 Hello Marc! I ended up ordering bluejean cables. I'm actually a cable skeptic so Im not expecting much from cables. The Sonetto 1 is my favorite speaker to date. I'm using them on stands for home theater and music. I LOVE how they sound. The bass is very articulate and full but not boomy by any means. They are very sweet sounding and VERY detailed. Those tweeters are AMAZING but I had to turn down the treble 1-2 clicks (~5%) because the Sonos amp is known to be a touch on the bright side, but that's the only tweak I do for some tracks (most of the time I leave it at default). I have hardwood floors and the speakers are close to a window so that doesn't help. This is why I got the belden blue jeans cables to help counteract the amp (Amazon basic cables make the highs brittle according to some posts I read online). Imaging is very good. These are transparent speakers with a very wide dispersion. They fill my smallish living room quite nicely and can get quite loud. (these are meant to fill a mid sized room and I have no doubt that they do). The woofer is not one of those high excursion types. It barely moves, but the bass is so rich and fast and present. You can be confident that you will get every last bit of detail out of these drivers. My plans were to get a Sonos sub to complement these but I'm not in a hurry as these have enough oomph. I'm afraid that if there is anymore bass I'll get upset neighbors knocking on my door. But I still plan on getting the Sonos sub to support my movie watching. I'm definitely a bookshelves on stands fan vs full range floor standers. My speakers must be maximally transparent and I believe that ideal place for bass drivers is not necessarily the same place where you place your speakers. This is why I went with the smallest bookshelf in the Sonetto line. The speakers are absolutely gorgeous. The way they look on my custom stands is just perfect, with perfect proportions and size. My girlfriend loves them and says that out of all the speaker candidates I looked at, these are by far the sexiest. honestly these are currently end game material unless I move into a much bigger space or if my budget allows for their bigger brother - the olympica 1 (mostly for aesthetics). I feel like these are the ideal combination of materials. I wanted silk domes, paper cones (cellulose pulp to be exact) and high quality cabinets, I wanted natural vocals and I wanted total transparency and 0 fatigue for long listening sessions. I don't have alot of space to set these in the middle of the room so I wanted a front firing port. And these checked off all my requirements. It's such a sweet sounding speaker while being nice and neutral and for me hits the sweet spot of resolution vs smoothness. I compared these to KEF ls50 and for me it was no contest, that silk dome tweeter is brilliant at retrieving detail without triggering my sensitivity to harshness that I often get with metal domes. My friend who is a music producer came to audition these, he said that they are very neutral, very close to his expensive genelec monitors but smoother sounding but "look and sound much sexier" - not flat and analytical like monitors (and kefs) but with a bit of sweetness and richness. He said that we live in a wonderful time when we can listen to sound that was only accessible to millionaires. Lol. Oh yeah. Even at low listening levels the precision is all there. The detail really makes them ideal for home theater too because you can hear the dialogue very clearly without using a center channel. The center image is rock solid and always syncs up to the screen position even waaay off axis. Minimal toe-in too. I can sit anywhere on our sectional couch and the center is rock solid. I listen to all kinds of music, from classical to jazz to electronic to rap and these do a fantastic job with all genres.
@@parapobabam Hi, Thanks for the detailed reply! Great to hear that you like the Sonetto's. Really appreciate your useful comments. Also good to hear that they are flexible on positioning as well, I think the font firing port would be an advantage in my small listening room. They are now on top of my list to audition - and will be arranging a demo as soon as I can travel back to the UK. Agreed, they are gorgeous to look at. For me at least, speakers must not only sound (very) good but should also be aesthetically pleasing...which I think a lot of audiophiles don't overly focus on. Can I ask what speaker stands you are using (given their slightly unusual base dimensions)? I looked at the specific Sonus Faber stands which again look nice, though they are quite expensive...Thanks again!
@@marcfoss7687 hello Marc. I love talking about speakers lol. So I actually bought some open box "Ultimate support" professional stands and had them cut down. Here is a link to some open box ones (look around I found mine for 169USD) www.proaudiostar.com/ultimate-support-ms-90-45b-mkii-monitor-stands.html This is what they look like finished. ( I'm planning to cut some custom top plates out of aluminum with a water jet and powder coated by a local shop using cad models I created, I'm a CG artist and I like to design speaker components in my spare time. ) drive.google.com/file/d/1vPnnoZRbOeQFQDk-FW-0HUhVysm7wW7h/view?usp=drivesdk drive.google.com/file/d/1vT4nR_52y91rrxb3Z-q2D36xCtjlHW_d/view?usp=drivesdk drive.google.com/file/d/1vXUaecKTA_XDsz0WIksjEN0flmAiFq4H/view?usp=drivesdk So this might be a bit involved to do but you know. I love the way these turned out even more than the official Sonus Faber stands. They are REALLY good for isolation with multiple layers of rubber and they can be filled with ballast and they have large channels inside for cable routing. Total spend on the speaker stand ended up about 300$ all in. Including some threading bits I needed to cut threads into the aluminum channels after they were cut down. Not bad for speakers stands of such performance and quality.
Just so you know, this video is still helping people today. Best objective explanation I've heard. Thanks Gene!
Agreed
Helped me in 2024!
@@LoganRST me too 2024
As a poor retiree I have settled for used gear. I lucked into winning an auction for the Adcom gfa-555 power amp and it made me realize that the Carver M-500 I'd been using for a couple of months desperately needed repair as it lacked both high and low freq. sound that the Adcom outputted quite well. Anyway, after getting my grubby mitts on a wonderful-sounding pair of ADS L810's, I thought about how their 94db efficiency would hold up with less power, so I hooked them up to the Emotiva a-100 Flex amp I'd been using for headphones, and the sound was every bit as good as the Adcom. All of this is in near-field so none of the amps were ever pushed very hard at all, but the 50wpc Emotiva has proven to be everything I could want for this desktop.
Love the vids, Gene!
You got me chuckling on the "to be honest, if you're listeninig to it so loud, you don't have any hearing left to begin with" ...lol! Stellar one, as always. love the research there!
Nicely explained and very lucid. I read somewhere that Hitachi had the licenses for class G, class H and magnetic field amps and licensed them to Soundcraftsmen and Carver respectively. I have a Hitachi class G receiver (SR-804) purchased in 1979 and still use it today. I keep it serviced and in good order. I find that it can be on for hours, sometimes eight hours and only gets barely warm to the touch. Sound is clean, clear almost crisp. I found the cost (in 1979) of this receiver very compatible with other similar powered brands. It cost me $340 in 1979.
Extremely well explained. I have a class A Tube EL34 2 x 12 Watts single-ended running in ultra-linear with a Tube preamp, a Technics 2 x 55 watts class A and a Sony 2 x 50 watts class AB and use a home built 1/4 wavelength 14feet transmission pipe floor standing enclosures running duel concentric 61/2 inch drivers with 25% of the spider removed for greater compliance and efficiency and at 8ohms with balanced passive crossover and Zobel network with 25-30Hz (dependant on room placement) to 20Khz response. By a long way, the Tube amp has far more control and with an HD source is breathtaking! So much more harmonic detail and presence and the image is stunning with depth and can 'feel' the music. I think the trade-off of less efficiency is worth the results. All achieved with a low budget in mind and 100s of hours of effort.
"..you're basically using a space heater." That is hilarious. Great video. I love your channel.
I know a guy here in Sweden that help heat up the warm water in the house with his home built Nelson Pass Class A amp and the water also cools the amp so Win Win for everyone.
I literally used my A class Yamaha as a heater in my small bedroom.
@@pimpmyskin excellent solution good for all seasons because a space heater is generally not good in the summer unless you are in a cold basement.
Gene,
What are your thoughts regarding the Crown XLS Amplifiers for Home Theater....
Beautiful explanation for a beginner. People always crazy on 1000w 20000w kind of figures. This tutorial cracks down the myth
best source of reliable information in the entire audiophile world
I had a friend who was an audiophile. On the other hand I am a musician and our interests matched at some point. I learned so much from him, but the most important thing he told me is never to become an audiofool.
Since then I simply love science and objectivity. Thanks for this great explanation.
I have always used A/B because I thought I paid more for less with A and that A was just old stuff for stubborn old guys. But now 20 years later I'm looking to get my next 2-chanel stereo after not having one the last 4 years I found Class A and have totally fallen in love. Nothing A/B sounds quite like Class A. I have listened to sooo many High End A/B amps and nothing is as smooth and powerfull at the same time. I also think that it's impossible to measure "Good Sound". You can have two cables made out of the same conducting material but put together different that will measure the same but sounds totally different. In my opinion the only quality test you can do on hifi is an old fashion listening session. Hifi is in the eye/ear of the beholder. It's like art, you can't measure art and say that's good or bad you can only look and make your mind up. Something you love I might not so who's right. Well that's all from me and have a blessed day
Going class d all the way. With the advent of GaN transistors is irresistible . For a stereo set up running a tube preamp with GaN class d is heaven
I changed from Class A and Class AB to Class D amp two years ago. First is that the heat is not a problem at all with Class D, esp since I live in Florida! The Class D sounds great!
This presentation is excellent and would rec it to all for a good clear rep of the different types of amps available.
I enjoy the no BS approach to this channel.
Top class analysis of the various types of amps ..Thank you !
Audiophiles / Gene are on another level of understanding from 99% of reviewers .
No bullshit , just facts , it makes it easier when you’re an expert in the subject matter ..and Audioholics def is 👍
I am a producer , i work with sound forever , and let me tell you , why would you need more then 20W , i have 2x200W speakers , 8inch 2 way system , quad amped , every driver its own amp , 75W tweeters and 125W bass . That is a good system , clear as day , no distortion , i use about 20W of it usually even less .
So whats the issue you ask ? The issue is music is not a perfect thing , perfectly clean speaker and amp , thats clinical , its not musical .. So that is what i use because im a producer , i have to have clean sound . But when im listening , Class A nothing else . No discussion . Its not a bout measurements , its how it sounds . I want that soft Clip , i want that less hten perfect dynamics .
The Amp Sings and adds richness to the sound . So much that producers copy sounds of some machines , some Compressors and things .
Hence let me tell you , if you are an experienced audio person, you dont need more then 20W , so Class A and that is it . Of cours you can have more then one amp for times when 20W is not enough .
Thanks Gene. This is one of the best videos I've seen from you guys, and watched quite a few. Really helping rooks plan well, save, and avoid pitfalls. Maybe even inspiring taking courses at uni. Thanks for doing this.
very good video killing the myth of audiophiles and bringing rationality into sound reproduction. that's the way i believe audio should be treated in marketing. thanks.
enjoy your class d. won't ever catch me running one. fool me once...
I currently use a Crown XLS1002 Class D amp - a professional amp. I heard many good things about it through the grapevine, especially about how "neutral" it sounds. I'm an old audio tweak who started in the 1970s. I've worked at Radio Shack and also Best Buy among my many retail audio experiences. The old "guiding principle" was straight-wire-with-gain. The best stuff was equipment that got out of the way, letting you get into the presence of the original recording. For years I used an SAE power amp that was reputed to be more neutral than any made at the time. (Mine was made in 1975.) I found that (after break-in!) the Crown was even more open and neutral. I use a Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram Generator with it, and I am getting imaging and presence that eliminates the need for surround or other multi-channel. Gene, if you haven't taken a couple of hours to listen to these Crown XLS DriveCore2 amps, you're missing out. Oh, and it's ice cold, even after 8+ hours of use - the fan has never turned on.
Hey my man thabks for keeping this video up. Been looking at so Much of your old videos lately. Love you guys
Thanks for the video, would please provide a recommendation of two amplifiers for each category that you mentioned. I think that would be extremely helpful.
Crosley, Sherwood, realistic, RCA, oh wait those are all terrible brands unless you like distortion. Why don't you just look at the specs or the best way listen to them, your ears don't hear data printouts and specs.
@@daveb5041 realistic haven't heard that brand in a long time brings back memories of the old RadioShack stores. 🙄
Gene, will you test a crown xls 2502
David Farris yes please Gene
I haven't but getting a ton of requests. I wish I had some local help to test all this stuff. I will put it on my list for next year.
Audioholics yay!! Lol
Audioholics It would be awesome to see how DriveCore technology from TI (Crowd XLS are using) would look on papers compare to UcD and Hypex N-Core. Excellent reviews and very informative tests and info from your web site, Thanks Gene
Gene, sounds like your enterprise is growing nicely.
I am available to outsource some testing or consulting. MSEE E&M -antennas and RF development and Audiophile for 30 years. Keep up the good work!
Measurement first and foremost.
Listen well.
speaking of class d do you have any test for the linn 85 please. regards.
Hey Gene, Egg cooker here.
As an engineer and audiophile, I use a combination of internal amp channels and separates to power my 5.2.2 system. Class D is coming along but fails to provide the dynamic headroom therefore requiring over spec'd power requirements. Also the effect of switching noise coupling into source paths concerns me and I see no testing of it.
I agree class A is bit much for anything high power and more than 2 channels, However, for my main channels I always use a good class A/B separate amp.
Current system: 5.2.2- Legacy Whispers FL FR Center, Driven by Adcom 550's : Celestion F30 Surrounds, Just added height channels to front with cheap BIC bookshelves , Yamaha TSR-7810 AVR.
Next Upgrade: 5 Channels of class A/B tube power amplification. Dynaco MkIII's fronts, Craftsmen monoblock center, Dynaco ST70 for Surrounds. All are being rebuilt/designed with upgraded power supply boards and caps. Distortion specs acknowledged, there is no power sag and the dynamic tonal quality of these amps in my opinion is better than all but very high end AVR and most separates. The
All 5 channels run < 600 watts wide open and efficiency or not, these things still outperform most amps in any price range. They will sit atop my old school solid oak entertainment center for visibility of the tubes and near intake vents for my HVAC system in the walls.
Listen well.
How the heck does class d fail in dynamic headroom? =/
I will soon be using a Yamaha AX-930 integrated amp. Where does that fall in the scheme of things re amp class? Thanks.
Love me some Class D amps. I have two Crown XLS-1500's running off my receivers preamp outs. One is set to High Pass for my Klipsch front speakers. The other one is set at Bridged / Low Pass for my Klipsch sub. These Crowns put out over 500 watts into 4 ohms in stereo, and over 1500 watts bridged into 4 ohms.
Is this why I have tinnitus?
Hi, would love to know what your thoughts are on a Yamaha M80 amp ?.
Excellent explanation of the difference in amplifiers. I’ll keep listening 👂
I had a pioneer sc 35. Beast of a amp. Very efficient and it drive all my 7 channels simultaneously with no problem. Amp didn't get as hot as other typical av receivers. Audio was in my experience superb. I use 8 to 4 ohms speakers with ease. Unfortunately its life ended because I had a bunch of toddlers who thought my amp was yogurt approve.
I run the Rotel RMB1555 , what reviewing have you done on my amp?
Been slamming a Fosgate T500-bdCP at 1-ohm for five years now. Love the constant power capabilities & being able to internally drop load. Two 12" two-ohm subs ... Wired in & it can auto-switch to 1-ohm. Car audio ... solid electrical. The new classes available to us, especially in car audio, has made all the difference.
PS: Yeah, my Fi Audio subs are WAAAAAY underpowered.
I run four beautiful Onkyo M-504 power amplifiers with my 7.1 channel home theater system and they are the most wonderful sounding "space-heaters" I've ever known. I do most of my movie/tv watching in the winter so the extra heat is actually welcome. I'm not sure these are genuine Class-A or not, but these beauties heat the room like Class-A's. They sure have great audio quality specs and are dead silent when on. Any noise you get, if any, comes from external sources. :-)
Hi Gene. Awesome video as always. Currently using Emotiva Gen 3, 3 channel. So far am impressed with the output. Usually listen to lots of stereo music for hours and when I touch it it's still cold to the touch. Makes me wonder sometimes if it's really working but am sure it is. Cheers. David.
How about Crown class I have you looked at those yet? I have the XTI 2002 and love it.
14:20 Honest question. When viewing any chart, it's imperative to note the scale. Here we see, what looks like, 0.75db of variation in frequency response between all loads tested. Am I reading that right? 0.75db is barely an audible difference. And we're talking only at 30kHz? Though the overall frequency response is crap, the discussion at hand was regarding the change versus the load presented, yes?
The 0.75dB variation is not between the loads tested; it is between the 8 channels of the amplifier, when tested with 8 ohm loads. With a 4 ohm load, the 3dB peaking at 30KHz is not present, but as loads go higher than 8 ohms (which many loudspeakers do within certain frequency ranges), the unit tends towards instability. That was the primary point that Gene was making - there is a serious design issue.
@@marianneoelund2940 Ahhh thanks. Yeah I noticed the channels listed on the Key. But from what he was saying, I thought maybe the Key is automatically generated onscreen after each run or something.
What do you think of the Emotiva DR line compared to the XPR series?
Still loving my Krell KSA 50, just love it.
Efficiency is one thing. But to my ears Class A generally sounds better.
I have a Proton D1200...I *think* it uses a variation of a Class G amp. They called it "DPD," "Dynamic Power on Demand." Rated at a conservative 100W per channel, they typically had about 7.7 dB of headroom.
What about the new Lexicon class D amplifiers? Are there like Crown amps?
Compare Lexicon, to Crown and QSC, slew rates and damping factors have better sound quality, with Lexicon.
one of the best multi-channel class D amplifiers ever made (at a reasonable price at least) was the Sherwood A-965, it was a 7 channel beast that pushed 7 channels at 100 watts each, and tests showed it was clean up to 120 watts, and driving two channels could push as high as 160 watts at 8-ohms. I wish I had one, they have become a rare find in recent years.
I have a Pioneer Elite SC-05 and a SC-99. Amy feedback on the class D amps in those two AV Receivers?
Great video! I have Rowland 925 monoblocks with Rowland Coherence II preamp, KEF Blades, Esoteric X03 SACD, Rega P10 table and Clear Audio Balance+ phono stage. An almost fully-balanced system. Audio heaven!
Hi Gene,
I’m running a Pass Labs XA-30.8. It provides 61 Watts of pure class A regardless of impedance. After that it goes in class A/B. I use it with a pair of 100db efficient Klipsch towers. They were the top of the line Klipsch in 2006. Together they provide plenty of oomph. I’ve had the Pass for just over a year. The Klipsch never sounded so good!
That sounds like a great combo. Congrats.
I am currently commissioning a guy to build a custom class A tube amp for me. The amp design is based on the Unison Research Simply Italy schematics. I save 700€ over buying the Unison Research amp. The custom amp will use bare wire for all components and will use better parts. So this amp should last a long time and be easy to service. I will pair this amplifier with wideband speaker towers (using 1 driver) based on the Audax AM 21 driver. I am stoked. Wideband drivers combined with tube amps sound so life-like. The speakers are so efficient, they only need 1~3 watts. So the modest 10W amp output is plenty.
I use a Sony proprietary S Master Digital amplifier, so am i using the best in class or is it just another technical jargon, as they claim with the S-Master digital amplifier, a simplified, full digital signal path, the S-Master amplifier reproduces digital audio signals without the multiple analogue stages required by conventional amplifiers. The result is not just more power, but significantly less distortion from heat build-up.
Very informative and good insights.
Btw have you reviewd NAD masters 7 channel power amp class D yet. If so pl l share the link. Thanks a lot.
truly thankful for everything you've done Gene ..your expertise , passion has been very helpful
I have two bridged Primare A34.2 to my 2 main-speakers and a Primare A30.7 to my center and surround channels and they are Class D amplifiers.
@birgerolofsson2347 I have a class d subwoofer made by sony and it sounds similar to a pa active subwoofer
Could you elaborate a little on a class H amplifier
I am using a NAD T785 receiver, maybe you can tell me what class amp it uses? Great video Cheers
Well informed Gene. I always said amplifiers and sound are like a car and engine, a Chevrolet does what a Mercedes does. But, will it give you the prestige and name brand feeling like the other? Amplifiers were perfected in the 90's already, they are just becoming more efficient with newer technology and capacitators. For sound quality, there are many factors in getting that perfect sound from the source, room treatment, placement, etc... There are people who spend $100k for a perfect system and swear they sound better. than a $1k system. I've used my vintage amps and speakers, and I don't need anymore; I've show friends at a garage sale to get equipment for $1k and listen to it, and see how good it sounds. I think a company like Emotiva or Schiit gives you that quality vs. McIntosh or Accuphase. People are just spending money on brand recognition. Run two Emotiva HC-1 mono and bang, you have the best 2 channel stereo amplifier for the next 10 years. For movies any receiver will cut it.
Could you guys do a head phone video? Like pre amps and how to match them?
I'm running a class A/B Denon AVR -2307CI and using it in a 2 Chanel system. I'm doing this because the amplifier is good, but a few of the digital inputs have gone out. I'd like to upgrade to a tube preamp (Schiit Saga) with a Crown XLS, XTI or XLI class d amplifier because of their reputation and you get so much power for the money, but I am not willing to sacrifice on sound quality. What do you recommend? Speakers are ELAC UB-5 Slims.
A space heater? I’m using Class A Pass Labs INT-60 into a pair of 4 ohm Tekton Double Impacts for stereo and it sounds amazing. Also an INT-150 Class A/B which also is amazing. A pair of Emotiva XPA-1 monoblocks on PSB Stratus Goldi’s as front speakers while using UPA-7 powering the rest of the Mirage speakers in 7.2 surround systemI. ’m still trying to understand the differences of Class A vs A/B since one of these Pass Labs amps has to go. Which one do I keep? 🤔
Keep the Emotivas!
What do you think about the ATI class d ncore amps?
Haven't tested them but they look good as they are based on hypex which is a proven design.
@@Audioholics Any plans on reviewing them?
Thanks for the video - I have a Yamaha A-S3000 integrated 2 channel amp. I guess it might be class A/B, however I have never seen anyone describe what amplifier class it is. Is there a way of figuring out what type it is?
Thanks
Yes it's class AB. You can tell by the linear power supply and large heatsinks. Also, most of Yamaha's receivers and integrated amps are still class AB and very good designs at that.
Re: what type of amplifiers do we use? Just wondering if anybody is using feed-forward, pre-distortion types (from the radio frequency world), that use DSP's to compare inputs and outputs, and add an inverted correction signal to the input to cancel any distortion on the output. That way they can be efficient and ultra-linear.
HI There Gene and All, can you help me please? I am wanting to upgrade my system to something extremely good quality and powerful. Currently I am running a Sugden A21 class A amplifier with Celef three-way speakers (I believe that company became the modern day Proac) I am keen to get a really very good, Maybe a good modern Class D Amp, hopefully not the most expensive one on the planet; but one definitely up to the job of bringing the best out of the Arendal 1723 monitors or even the towers. Also of course happy to hear any other recommendations of reasonably priced good quality speakers? Thanks in advance Kestrel.
As always, great info Gene, thanks for sharing. I never considered class D amps before now but maybe I"ll check them out due to your findings. Keep the great videos coming!
hey Gene I have a 6 month old Cambridge Azur 851 A Integrated Amp it's fine. I have a PS Audio Stellar pre-amp/dac hooked to it. However, I gotten intrigued lately with Jeff Rowland amp have a chance to pick up a 525 Amp (class D) vs. the x/t(A/b ) in the Cambridge. Which to think is better and more importantly better sounding and clarity? Would it be worth the $2,400 or diminishing returns
?
Hi Gene, I am planning to purchase an AVR and considering the Denon AVRX4500H or Marantz SR6013. I am setting up my new house for Dolby ATMOS (5.2.4) and would be using my AVR for Movies/Music. I have not in person heard the quality of their sound output as I couldn't find any demo showrooms in the place I currently live. So I am banking on the internet reviews and make the purchase online. That's how I mostly do shopping and It works for me.
If I have to decide between the two brands, which one would be better purchase for sound quality? My living room is about 12x10 sqft and I wouldn't drive them too loud. If not between these two brands, do you suggest something better in the same price band? What type and brand of speakers to go for (bang for the buck vs no budget constrains)? Please share your thoughts. Thank you for putting out such a wonderful and informative video on sound engineering.
The quick answer is.
Class-A full power on transistors for best sound.
Class-B only power on transistors when there is sound in and it can create unfortunate audible things when transistors turn on.
Class-AB. transistors are always on with a little power and never turn off completely.
A class-D amplifier or switching amplifier is an electronic amplifier in which the amplifying devices (transistors, usually MOSFETs) operate as electronic switches, and not as linear gain devices as in other amplifiers. They operate by rapidly switching back and forth between the supply rails, being fed by a modulator using pulse width, pulse density, or related techniques to encode the audio input into a pulse train. The audio escapes through a simple low-pass filter into the loudspeaker. The high-frequency pulses are blocked. Since the pairs of output transistors are never conducting at the same time, there is no other path for current flow apart from the low-pass filter / loudspeaker. For this reason, efficiency can exceed 90%.
Great information! I currently have a pionneer sc 2023 class D for home usage. Do you think it has a good output filter has you explained? Or is it any good?
Hi, if there is no transformer used, can we say it's class D amp like in my LG BH 6340H blu ray home theatre when I opened to see what's inside in it. I also got SONY str dn1080 with wharfedale speakers & I like the sound of both. Thx
I have gone from a heavy yamaha integrated amp to a smsl ad18, my power bill came down, and the sound is like removing another grill from the speakers, to me it's awesome. going from cinch to usb for the signal helped too i suppose.
I have class A across the front soundstage with class AB for all the other 8.2 channels. 200 Watts per channel minimum all around the theater room, Adcom, Kenwood, Yamaha, B&K and Carver to be specific. Okay so I have a lot of power available for sound quality and effects. It is worth it for me.
Jene, I want to ask about the Class B amplifier cause I own one. That Denon DVR-2802, its a Class-B amp 7.1 channel. But i am running 5.1 channels on it. Some Old models front speakers like AKAI SW-302 (Modified crossovers & tweeters). I had marrantz Class A amp and it really sounds something like I've never heard before. It never matched with my speakers :(
It would be great if you compare the consumer D amplifiers with professional D amplifiers from companies such as QSC, Crown, Powersoft, etc. These commercial level amps are extremely reliable. They drive multiple speakers and are designed to work for hours without a break.
My take away from this very nice video is that if my priority is the best possible sound, for instance to drive a 2 channel audiophile system, Class A amplification is the best possible choice with appropriate caveats regarding budget, listening space size, desired listening levels and speaker sensitivity. If those considerations demand more than about 20 watts, then Class AB may be a better choice. If those considerations demand more than about 200 watts, then Class D should also be considered and may prove the best compromise. If my priority is minimizing my electrical consumption (or $ outlay) and sound quality is secondary, such as multi-channel AV system, or a music system for casual uncritical listening, then well chosen Class D likely offers the best compromise.
One concern I do have unique to Class D is that the output filter is a reactive LC circuit, and most amp testing simulates speakers with a simple resistive load. Speakers are not resistors, but rather are reactive LCR loads in their own right, which therefore will interact with the Class D output filter circuit quite differently than a simple resistive load. Hopefully that interaction doesn't result in audible distortion, but testing the amp with a resistive load will not reveal whether or not that is the case. The only test that can is to use the actual speakers chosen for the system as the test load, since each speaker design offers unique LCR circuit characteristics. This issue is well known, much studied, and I hope, largely solved.
100% agreement.
My Krell KSA 250 is a egg fryer! Its also a b&lll buster to lift!
Is that Protel/Altium schematic of the XPR-1 available somewhere? That was def. done in Altium or Protel...
Any views on class d used on crown xls series drive core amps? Hows their class d design?
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF QSC GX5 AMP AS A SUBWOOFER AMP FOR HOMETHEATER..?GREAT VIDEO
Gene, another great video! One question, please. Why have manufacturers not launched a multi-channel (5/7/9 or 11) Class D amp for hooking up to AVRs to get better power to their home theater speakers? Spending $1500 on a receiver to only get ~40-50 watts when all channels are driven is pretty pathetic.
Yea the industry is slow to adopt Class D and to do it right, it's still costly. Thankfully most midpriced AVR's have preouts to add power down the road if you need it.
Hi Gene. great video!! I have a Denon X3400 with Elac Unifi lineup as home theater. I was planning to get the Outlaw 5000. But after watching your video, it got me thinking about a 5 channel class D amplifier. Any suggestions??
Any of the Pioneers, regardless of generation, that are running the ICE Power amps will do. I saw a test done by an audio store owner where the Pioneer SC25, rated 140watts, held true to 140watts under 2ch load and roughly 90 - 100 watts under 7Ch load. This was put up against an equivalent Yamaha model, which, in that owners test, the Yamaha (rated 140 watt) output 180watts under 2Ch, but drastically fell down to 40 and even 25 watts at 5 - 7ch load. In his testing, the Yamaha ended up blowing out its power supply, and he sent it for RMA.
Of course, I would always recommend using multiple 2 channel power amps and using a Receiver as the DAC/Switch. Most modern receivers support pre outs. What you save in not buying an over priced receiver, you spend in amps. At the very least, Power the FL FR with a 2 channel.
I’m about to buy a 4 channel amp for my F-150. I put component speakers in each door. So, I have 4 woofers, 4 crossovers and 4 tweeters. They’re rated at 125 watt rms each. I don’t have a lot of money. So, I can’t decide between the Rockville DB45 or the Taramps DS800x4. The Rockville is class a/b and the Taramps is class D. Each have enough power but which one will be clearer? Have you any knowledge of either? You obviously know exactly what you’re doing. Any advice for me?
Great video good explanation. My first amp was a Yamaha CA1010 integrated amp, it sounded great. Then i got a NAD 3020 that also sounded great sadly it went up in smoke one night. Now I have a NAD Viso1 bluetooth speaker and it sounds fantastic. I know what a good system sounds like I built my own speakers for one set i used Phillips drivers with a 12inch woofer mid and tweeter. For my 2nd set i used an Electro Voice 15inch woofer with a horn tweeter. I used to place the Phillips speakers on top of the EV speakers and drive all 4 speakers with that Yamaha amp it played very loud would blow your hair back. I don't listen at those levels these days but that NAD Viso1 speaker can play very loudly indeed it has PSB speakers in it and is very accurate and dynamic, if you have not heard one of these you should check them out. They have to be considered the best value in audiophile sound, you will be impressed.
Very interesting, I was using my dad’s old Carver Amp and preamp but it needs taking into the repair shop to get it looked at. The preamp is a Carver Model C-1 High Fidelity Control Console Sonic Holography Preamplifier has sonic hologram processing technology for a 3D sound stage. The amp is a Carver Model M-1.5t Magnetic Field Power Amplifier High Headroom Low Feedback Power Amplifier with 350 watts per channel RMS Class A. It doesn’t have transformers in it and it’s smaller than a VHS/DVD combo player and weighs half as much and has not one switch or dial on the whole thing including an on off switch,you have to turn it on and off at the wall, it has an LED power indicator and 2 columns of LEDs to indicate the power output of the speakers once you turn the volume past half way on the preamp. The LEDs rise higher as you turn the volume up until the top 2 start flashing and if you leave it too high for too long it will trip out the speaker protection because they are being overheated, not because the amp is pushed too hard and there’s next to no distortion at that level either! You can hook up a lot of speakers to the one amp and it will just be adding more sound output to the listening room the more speakers you add until you blow the fuse at which stage you get a bigger fuse and you blow that fuse then you may want to turn it down a bit because your whole neighbourhood pushed out of their house lol! We used to have 4 large old school speakers hooked up 2 Realistic 160 watts each and 2 made up boxes adding to 230 watts each and with all 4 going they would be so loud but still clear.
The Carver M-1.5t is class H, not class A.
Are there any differences in sound quality between pro style amps like the crown XLS range compared to the more tradition HiFi class d amps? How are pro amps so powerful and cheap?
Most pro amps are designed to be loud with fidelity being a secondary concern. If you see a proamp claiming 1kwatts of power and it only weighs 12lbs and costs only $500, RUN! Almost none of these cheap proamps disclose fullbandwidth power. If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
Does the Onkyo Tx-RZ920 AV receiver use a Class D amplifier?
After 6 minutes of viewing I realize my top right screen is moving.. (Full screen mode)
Good explaination btw!
@@noemycabrera8686 ?
I am running an Austrian AYON Crossfire iii tube amp. A single ended, class A amp. giving 2x30 W weighing about 95 pounds. I drive a pair of Martin Logan ESL Summit X. Yes, it gets warm in my man cave but the sound is silk smooth, warm (LOL) and just beautiful. The amp is actually very modern. It has internal digital control function but no digital circuits in the signal path.
Not technical? I didn't understand the schemes at all xD
Anyway, very good summary though, but what do you think about hybrids? I have a hybrid 150/250 W into 8/4 Ohm Vincent amp that has Class A tube amp portion for the first 15W for the mids and highs and Class D for the low end. How efficient is that comparing to the mentioned types?
Thanks for such helpfull tutorial ... Specially at 2 AM (by looking at your desktop clock :D)
Do you know the Nakamichi PA7 and PA7II Nelson Pass design? And if so, can you please tell me what class these two amps are? Thank you in advance.
A/B I own them the Nakamichi
I use NAD C- 388 integrated amplifier (D) used A and A&B power before but I made the Jump to D Power and I'm impressed plenty of power controls the speakers very well runs cool and has 90% efficiency never looked back
Great amplifier. Surprised by how good it sounds.
I have a ab amplifier and im switching to behringer nx6000 class d. Is that a good class d?
Gene, what about the Pioneer SC-09? The ICE amp is bigger than the SC-07 you tested, do you think it’s able to drive 4 ohms?
Hmm the SC-09 may be a different animal. Not sure if they used the same mediocre ICE module the SC-07 did. I bet it's the better module that can drive 4 ohm loads.
I have a related question. YBA has recently started using UI-core transformers, not Toroidal. This seems to be a not a good thing. Am I wrong?
what kind of implementation is my nad t758 v3 using?
Does anyone know that type of topology Bob Carver used with his Phase linear , Carver and Sunfire amplifiers with his " tracking down converter "? They ran very cool and were rather light for their power rating and the sound was phenomenal in it's day for the price .If it was class D he was really ahead of his time as Phase linear was in the 70's.
Class G or H similar to what Emotiva did in Gen2 amps.
Fantastic content gene. Exactly the video I was looking for
Hi Gene
I'm look to find out what would be the best approach between a power amp like Outlaw 5000 or a Monolith 7X200 watts with an AV receiver like the Denon AVR-X4400H or go with a Preamp processor and a Power amp for a small dedicated room of about 14X9. I intend to use it for home theater of 5.2.4 speakers for starter and maybe add more speakers in the future(not search). Thanks I like your video and your articles, they are really good.
Thanks for going beyond manufacturers’ specs. I’d like to see a much higher impedance linearity test though. Your graph is centered at zero ohms and tops out at 8. It would be much more helpful to see it start at zero with the top somewhere around 30 ohms. (A “4 ohm” driver isn’t actually 4 ohms; that’s its minimum)
Just doubled my knowledge on amps with this video.
What about the Colorado based Jeff Rowland Design Group offerings all with switchmode powersupplies. Jeff Rowland makes ICE power poweramps for over two decades now and is considered one of the best in business and highend of course.
Hi, Gene.
With the exception of my Luxman MQ 360 tube preamp (I'm pretty sure it's Class A), all the rest of my amplifiers (both SS and tubes), integrated or power, are Class AB.
One question I've been wonder about: why if Class D were used in portable devices' audio outputs,, such as smartphones, tablets and the like? Is this amplifier topology available in VLSI chips?
Thanks a lot for the video.
Thanks a lot for your answer after four months (I mean...your not answering).
This has very kind from you, indeed.
Denon 3600H is my new amp to buy, what type of amp is it?
What are your thoughts on sonos amp ( 250w x 2 @ 4ohm ) of latest generation? I am driving Sonus Faber Sonetto 1 bookshelves with it ( and i love the way they sound ). I cant shake the feeling that i'm missing out on more fidelity/soundstage/transparency out of my speakers when i look at all these huge, fancy looking setups with tubes and shit sticking out all over the place and speaker wires as girthy as my shaft. Should I get a better amp or is this particular Sonus Faber model too entry level to really matter? at what point would you recommend upgrading amps? would you even bother pairing a super high end speaker with a puny amp like this? my main reason for going with sonos is because i really like their overall software integration and how you can make it disappear in your home (i am not a fan of huge racks of equipment dominating my listening space ). Then again, i'm also the type of listener that still uses amazon basics cables (far less girthy), so maybe im just not high end enough for a superior amp? All of the reviews so far for the AMP have been...well. not very technical to put it mildly, there is a 4 star review by what hifi, but i feel like it was more about its aesthetics and packaging rather than a full dive into its performance and measurements.
Hi, I was interested to hear that you are running Sonetto 1 bookshelves. I am seriously thinking about buying a pair. I have a Cambridge Azur 851A stereo amp (200W into 4 ohms) and that would not be a problem to drive the Sonetto's. I'm no expert, but think your amp should be fine. Can I ask how you find the Sonetto's? They are also beautiful looking speakers! I have a very small listening room and am very concerned about boomy/muddy base resonances so was thinking to trade down to a smaller monitor (e.g. 5" inch woofer down to 55Hz) and filling in the base with a good subwoofer...But I am very tempted by the Sonetto's. P.S. for speaker cables - try the Kimber Kables, they are great, and Gene likes them too!
@@marcfoss7687 Hello Marc! I ended up ordering bluejean cables. I'm actually a cable skeptic so Im not expecting much from cables. The Sonetto 1 is my favorite speaker to date. I'm using them on stands for home theater and music. I LOVE how they sound. The bass is very articulate and full but not boomy by any means. They are very sweet sounding and VERY detailed.
Those tweeters are AMAZING but I had to turn down the treble 1-2 clicks (~5%) because the Sonos amp is known to be a touch on the bright side, but that's the only tweak I do for some tracks (most of the time I leave it at default). I have hardwood floors and the speakers are close to a window so that doesn't help. This is why I got the belden blue jeans cables to help counteract the amp (Amazon basic cables make the highs brittle according to some posts I read online).
Imaging is very good. These are transparent speakers with a very wide dispersion. They fill my smallish living room quite nicely and can get quite loud. (these are meant to fill a mid sized room and I have no doubt that they do). The woofer is not one of those high excursion types. It barely moves, but the bass is so rich and fast and present. You can be confident that you will get every last bit of detail out of these drivers. My plans were to get a Sonos sub to complement these but I'm not in a hurry as these have enough oomph. I'm afraid that if there is anymore bass I'll get upset neighbors knocking on my door. But I still plan on getting the Sonos sub to support my movie watching. I'm definitely a bookshelves on stands fan vs full range floor standers. My speakers must be maximally transparent and I believe that ideal place for bass drivers is not necessarily the same place where you place your speakers. This is why I went with the smallest bookshelf in the Sonetto line.
The speakers are absolutely gorgeous. The way they look on my custom stands is just perfect, with perfect proportions and size. My girlfriend loves them and says that out of all the speaker candidates I looked at, these are by far the sexiest. honestly these are currently end game material unless I move into a much bigger space or if my budget allows for their bigger brother - the olympica 1 (mostly for aesthetics).
I feel like these are the ideal combination of materials. I wanted silk domes, paper cones (cellulose pulp to be exact) and high quality cabinets, I wanted natural vocals and I wanted total transparency and 0 fatigue for long listening sessions. I don't have alot of space to set these in the middle of the room so I wanted a front firing port. And these checked off all my requirements.
It's such a sweet sounding speaker while being nice and neutral and for me hits the sweet spot of resolution vs smoothness. I compared these to KEF ls50 and for me it was no contest, that silk dome tweeter is brilliant at retrieving detail without triggering my sensitivity to harshness that I often get with metal domes.
My friend who is a music producer came to audition these, he said that they are very neutral, very close to his expensive genelec monitors but smoother sounding but "look and sound much sexier" - not flat and analytical like monitors (and kefs) but with a bit of sweetness and richness. He said that we live in a wonderful time when we can listen to sound that was only accessible to millionaires. Lol.
Oh yeah. Even at low listening levels the precision is all there. The detail really makes them ideal for home theater too because you can hear the dialogue very clearly without using a center channel. The center image is rock solid and always syncs up to the screen position even waaay off axis. Minimal toe-in too. I can sit anywhere on our sectional couch and the center is rock solid.
I listen to all kinds of music, from classical to jazz to electronic to rap and these do a fantastic job with all genres.
@@parapobabam Hi, Thanks for the detailed reply! Great to hear that you like the Sonetto's. Really appreciate your useful comments. Also good to hear that they are flexible on positioning as well, I think the font firing port would be an advantage in my small listening room. They are now on top of my list to audition - and will be arranging a demo as soon as I can travel back to the UK. Agreed, they are gorgeous to look at. For me at least, speakers must not only sound (very) good but should also be aesthetically pleasing...which I think a lot of audiophiles don't overly focus on. Can I ask what speaker stands you are using (given their slightly unusual base dimensions)? I looked at the specific Sonus Faber stands which again look nice, though they are quite expensive...Thanks again!
@@marcfoss7687 hello Marc. I love talking about speakers lol. So I actually bought some open box "Ultimate support" professional stands and had them cut down.
Here is a link to some open box ones (look around I found mine for 169USD) www.proaudiostar.com/ultimate-support-ms-90-45b-mkii-monitor-stands.html
This is what they look like finished. ( I'm planning to cut some custom top plates out of aluminum with a water jet and powder coated by a local shop using cad models I created, I'm a CG artist and I like to design speaker components in my spare time. )
drive.google.com/file/d/1vPnnoZRbOeQFQDk-FW-0HUhVysm7wW7h/view?usp=drivesdk
drive.google.com/file/d/1vT4nR_52y91rrxb3Z-q2D36xCtjlHW_d/view?usp=drivesdk
drive.google.com/file/d/1vXUaecKTA_XDsz0WIksjEN0flmAiFq4H/view?usp=drivesdk
So this might be a bit involved to do but you know. I love the way these turned out even more than the official Sonus Faber stands. They are REALLY good for isolation with multiple layers of rubber and they can be filled with ballast and they have large channels inside for cable routing.
Total spend on the speaker stand ended up about 300$ all in. Including some threading bits I needed to cut threads into the aluminum channels after they were cut down. Not bad for speakers stands of such performance and quality.
@@parapobabam Wow...I can't compete with you there! :-) But thanks again for the info and ideas.
what about technics sua 900mk2 class AA mosfet amplifier