ONE THING LEADS TO ANOTHER
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- Wow talk about one thing leading to another, and even than the problems kept coming.
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00:00 SPONSOR CARD
00:09 VIDEO START
02:51 SCREWS IN PANELS ARE OVERRATED
04:31 CFM TEST
06:41 BEARING TEST
08:01 AMRAD FOR THE WIN
08:52 COIL CLEANING TIME
09:56 VIPER FOR THE WIN
14:16 VETO CT-XL
15:29 ONE THING LEADS TO ANOTHER
15:41 WTF MOMENT
17:42 HELICOPTER MOTOR
21:15 I'M BACK
25:05 INSULATION TEST
29:50 DRIVE BYPASS
31:16 CLOSING WORDS
I would love to see an episode about your phase monitor results and any mitigation attempts you make to deal with the challenge of “dirty power”
17:39 You may want to also install a shroud around the VFD kit to direct any nastiness away from the other elements should you have another one blow up on equipment you service.
Chris, I had the same thing happen to movie theater with 23 of these same Lennox units, and we were the only Lennox dealer in southern Arizona. 13 of them blew the VFD drives like someone had thrown a hangranade in them, it was carnage city, to the tune of $30 grand. Come to find out the building had been struck by lighting 1 month before, and for some reason these 13 units out the 23 had some weird transient voltage making its way back to the VFD drives. The owner was glad that Lennox and his insurance company footed the whole $30 grand bill.I also had the same problem with the fan shroud nuts on the studs, which I used blue locktight on all of the nuts even ones that had not fallen off yet, I say yet because all the nuts where loose as shit. That dang job took me 4 days, of course once I got all the parts in to get everything fixed and back to normal. I am a bit OCD when it comes to my work. It seems like the condenser fans, blades, and run caps just love to go out at the worst time on them. Oh and don't even get me started with those dang ice-cube relays. I use to have to buy 40-50 at a time. ugh LOL PS I have been retired sense 2013 and I still drive by buildings and houses and can hear compressors that sound like a box of rocks, same thing with bearings, my grown kids tell me "Dad its not your problem anymore" and I say "I know but! It's in my blood, I can't stop." :)
I'm in I.T., considering switching careers to HVAC after watching your vids for a year or so... You've taught me so much. Thanks dude.
If you think switching careers consider BAS technician your already a IT a lot of commercial building are run by computer to run there HVACR Equipment a lot of openings if you prove yourself.
The industry is lucky to have good men like you Chris and team on ya fellas 👌
Nice work. I'm not any form of technician but your videos have the perfect balance of edutainment to make me want to watch everything you put out.
T-shirt idea for your merch store- "123, please don't blow up"
haha yeah instant classic
My mom always said "Do it nice, or do it twice." I completely feel the sentiment about doing it 100% the first time
I’ve seen Trane I-Paks w/ aftermarket VFD’s installed in the electrical panel. They didn’t last long, there’s a reason why Trane mounts them in the tail end of the Boxcar in the return air stream.
I've been retired for three years now and just watching your videos makes me feel hopeful for our industry. I, for the entirety of my career, was very detail oriented and enjoyed the challenge of keeping up with technology, but still held on to good old fashion thoroughness and hard work. It's nice to know good techs still out there.
Voltage issues (check tolerances with the VFD manufacturer) and mainly the cooling fans go bad, then the components give out. Not many people check the cooling fans, you can't hear them when the unit is running either, just putting your hand over the exhaust will let you know if it's running or not. Most drives like ABB drives normally run for about a minute after the fan command is gone. Data loggers are the way to go, they record real time and give you so much insight as to what is going on with building power.
Gotta turn them notifications on and get here quick
Thanks for your videos. I have a service company in chico California and we train young people on commercial refrigeration and hvac. We also do much more, electrical, plumbing and general engineering.
We have a family business and my two sons help run jobs . Our crew is young and we have classes in the mornings .
I often share your videos with everyone and they have learned quite a bit.
I just wanted to say thanks again.
Giuseppe Pennisi
Pioneer engineering and construction.
Hi Chris regarding the indoor blower Motor feeling extremely hot, it depends on the Insulation class of the windings, a Class H Motor for example can reach 180°C or 356°F as the insulation is designed to resist such temperatures.
Kinda cool the filters got changed on 2/22/22
Thank you so much for creating videos, I enjoy all of them keep it up
The VFD might have experienced surges and might need surge protection, Good job Chris.
IMO its good practice to check other things while there because it never fails you were there to fix one unit and another unit fails and first thing the customer will say " you were just here what happened: and it just cascades from there , good video as always :)
I used to serve a big box hardware client that would have about 30 of these Lennox units on many of their stores. During PMs, I'd usually just switch the wires on the relays to the normally closed terminal before restoring power to get a quick idea of what I was dealing with before getting into the nitty gritty.
One time, my laziness got the better of me and I swapped the wires back on the relays with the power on. Gave me a nice jolt and a good lesson on stupidity that set my ass straight.
what you can do is put the 24v transformer in series with run relay in the icm phase protection. so if has bad power it shuts unit off. also you need to have some protection for the blower. i know is temporary but for longer runs you should put an full motor starter or separated fuses for the blower because if motor shorts only main fuse/breaker will protect it.
That is something I have done in the past, kill the 24 volts or you could interrupt the safety circuit also, safety circuit is more preferable in my opinion.
Absolutely agree with your comment. I had to install phase monitors on two 15 ton carrier RTUs that lost two VFDs and a blower motor. Wired it to kill 24v and low and behold on a Pm, I came back to find that a phase did drop out on one of the RTUs and the monitor caught it and shut the unit down, no damage. I love those ICMs. The problem these guys are having is with an on-site FPL transformer dropping a leg from time to time.
My favorite saying as I turn on a disconnect after working on it is..."some go....some blow"
If you find VFD's are failing regularly, it probably isn't installed in spec in one way or another (whether environmental or technical). One thing to try would be uprating the VFD to a larger capacity VFD but with it running an under rated motor it will do less work and the cooling on the VFD might be able to keep up with the environment. Another thing would be ensuring good airflow around the VFD and maybe even trying to clean the vents on it when doing a PM (maybe even an air filter on the VFD?). I've known VFDs to run for years, but they have been hunkin bigguns compared to the motor they run. It might even simply be a case of everything getting smaller but failing more regularly.
I live about 45 minutes away from the amrad plant. Pretty cool to see them being used all the way out there. As far as the VFD, caps usually bloat like that when either the voltage gets too high or the temp gets too high. Might be something to check with the phase monitor
4:00 I recognize that brand of capacitors! They're lousy as heck.
8:22 Hooray!
18:59 More lousy caps.
Lol my boss tells me the same thing about ice machines go to town and make it clean you're a brave man running that jet stream through the coil I've done my fair share of flattening micro fins and being like oh s*** I got to back off the pressure. Lol :p
You should use a paint marker and write the install date and new amp readings on fan motors and compressors. Would help you in future troubleshooting.
If you think you hear alot of things without headphones in, try putting on a set of electronic hearing protection ear buds like we do for shooting/hunting. They act like noise cancelling for loud stuff but exaggerate small noises (like hearing aids).
As far as this unit is concerned, I think you replaced the M2 board and the accessory board when the last VFD pooped the bed. It's the same video that the Lennox TS told you to replace the display AFTER you replaced the 2 boards. Maybe there is a voltage imbalance present because you did have a 2v difference between the first and second visit but it would be interesting to know what each leg is to ground for reference. Honestly, I think it would be something at the panel where the load isn't distributed properly on the buses.
If they're getting brown outs or poor quality power, the current going through the drive might be spiking, not to mention equipment can draw more current as all the components age. As we all know, OEMs these days love to size equipment with little to no overhead. Upsizing that VFD might help prevent failures. That drive should have been configured to prevent overcurrent, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was consistently pushed to its' full limit. A little overhead helps prevent the failures outside of the nice clean lab where it was probably tested. On the other hand, field engineering this package unit is probably out of your scope. 😁
TAB usually tests the unit at max cooling/heating to make sure the unit can satisfy all zones/register drops according to the max airflow schedule. When demand drops, it can stage down and the VFD can back off and just keep the airflow at the minimum required airflow (which they may also test and set).
100%! My very first time up on a rooftop my boss told me to do every single thing you’re discussing here. Walk around listen grab your drill pulseM tops off the exhaust fans take a look at the belts. It takes may be an extra 3045 minutes but I can’t tell you how many times we go up for a walk in cooler down or cleaning an ice machine and we leave with sometimes several thousand dollars in things that were about to be failures. at least they knew Rather than have the inverse happened where you don’t say something or you don’t look and the next day their dining room goes down. It’s so much easier conversation to have upfront
With such dirty power what responsibility does your power company have to give you clean power.
Power cuts on bringing back online the spikes kill vfd and caps which I recently seen in the storms we had in UK.
just wanted to thank you for a great video. Your knowledge of your trade and integrity is appreciated .
17:46 condenser fan motor identifies as an apache helicopter
Handles all facing down, that’s not a pet peeve that’s OCD! Lol! But that’s what makes you a skilled professional, attention to detail! Great work as always Chris
First..you either had a bad VFD ( I have replaced several in the past 10 years) or there may be an issue with that replacement motor. Even if they have ball bearings, most motors are not actually designed for VFD operation. As for finding work...in the third party world, many clients wait for the store to report a loss of cooling before repairs will be approved. With some clients, approvals based on an inspection are below 50% of the number submitted. If you want to repair AC, it had better already be hot out. April quotes for AC repairs are ignored in the northeast. Because restaurants are mostly a "fix on failure" operation, telling them about a need before a failure is felt by the store is often a waste of time. YMMV.
I agree that this VFD was faulty from the get-go. The caps are isolated from line power (or, they should be), so the most that's going to happen on under-voltage is that the drive will give a general-purpose fault, and refuse to work.
Can you elaborate on the assertion that most motors aren't intended to run on a drive? I've never heard this before, and I'm curious about the origin of the statement?
@@Coffreek Sure. Some motor tags indicate that they are approved for VFD use. Most motors do not have that notation, most likely because they were designed before VFD's became a popular choice for HVAC motors. Running a 60Hz motor at less that 60Hz causes stresses on the windings, and motors without a shaft grounding device will experience bearing pitting as the induced currents try to find a way to a lower potential. As for the caps failing, that has nothing to do with the low line voltage. The caps are simply not as sturdy as older designed caps. Even in a 208 volt unit, I always install 440v caps because they are more durable. There is no reason to use a 370v cap, unless it is all you have on hand.
@@arthouston7361 , I get wrong notions because my experience is with 480 in industrial applications, and I have the luxury of being able to tell my employer "we need this", and they get me an Allen-Bradley, or whatever else. I knew about shaft grounds, but I forgot that we're talking about 208/220 systems.
Excellent video as always. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Love These Videos Thank You very much for sharing this valuable information with all of us the good advice and professional service advice 👍🏽
I got called out recently for using that "purse" 😂 I love my Veto CT-XL tho
I work on Lennox units, and seeing this vid helps a lot. Thanks
I’ve read that as little as a 4% difference between lowest and highest voltage reading across phases can damage drives. I would’ve really loved seeing you bypass the drive. Maybe next time.
Better test the capacitance of your meter on one of the new caps. that many bad seems suspicious. Also the vfd has active cooling (a fan) They need to be blown out on the PM. Once they clog with dirt they fail quickly.
Maybe it's a heat issue in that compressor section causing the vfd failure. The york rtu's I normally work on have the drives mounted in the blower section where the temperature is much cooler, they also have the protection of the filters provided the customer is keeping up with filter changes.
Good troubleshooting vid ... Lot's of info ... Thx for sharing ...
Preventive maintenance!😐
Thanks again for the videos!
🍺🍺🍺🥃🥃🎳⛳
Stay safe.
Retired (werk'n)keyboard super tech. Wear your safety glasses!
no for headphones with music, yes for foam ear plugs to protect your hearing.
you will get used ot it and have plenty of hearing after wearing them for 5 mins to hear noises that are out of place.
Oh and particularly for the VFD's consider installing surge suppression!
First time working with a Aaon unit with a aaon vccx controller. Called Aaon support and was walked through the process of finding what faults were. Found OAT sensor connector had degraded and setting an alarm. Cut male and female connectors out and wire nutted the 4 wires directly. Unit running great! Easy peasy with these controls!
21:50 If you're getting good voltage at the main panel but low voltage at this unit, the customer may need to call in an electrician to replace the wire between the Main Panel and the A/C with the next larger Gauge, that should (If I remember my Electrical Theory from school) reduce the Voltage Drop between the Main Panel and the Unit...
Great video
Exploded capacitor in the VFD... No bueno!
I'm wondering if they're using capacitors that are either a) bargain-bin quality, or b) not properly rated for the temperatures they will face while under load, in a metal box, on top of a roof, in California sunshine?
Great Video!
Great job Chris
With the fan motor one test I would say changing the relay even though the voltage came up to 200 I presume you had a reading lower. When going bad they can sometimes pull in at lower voltage due to dirty contact and pull in 5 seconds later to full voltage. If you see it once it’s probably happening 10 times a day.
Great job on looking at the bigger picture proud of you man keep up the great work
And question 🙋♂️
Next time you by-pass vfd can you run a tstat wire to 3 pole contactor from green and yellow so that motor runs only when called for? Same for heat. So your motor won’t run 24/7
Thanks
My god those compressors sound AWESOME
If you can use another brand of VFD, try an Invertek or ABB? Have a couple of them working on heavy motors for years, no issues yet.
Excellent video! Very entertaining and as always, informative.... Thats something how the vfd failed again and catastrophic at that. Could be an under voltage issue at that place. The voltage will continue to drop as demand goes up and maybe its getting too low at times causing amperage to go up on everything in the unit. Glad to see you hook up a monitoring unit. That should give you a clue if theres something going on.
With seeing how those drives fail, there's no way I would replace one. I couldn't imagine that failure happening with a tech working on it. I would just bypass all those drives and let the fans run.
You might also want to check to see if there's a ground feedback loop somehow made on the electrical system In high school the welding exhaust fans VFD kept on popping until we put a dedicated ground to it
love your vidoes
Keep it up.
Cool video!
Pretty sure the vfd was overheating. The capacitors have exploded and if this has happened in judt 3yrs of 24x7 use then i am pretty sure the whole thing was running very hot like above 70c .. not sure what temperature rated caps they use but caps don't like running hot and if the voltage goes above rated they will explode and the dc will have high ac ripple and the whole thing will die due to that ac ripple on the dc section..
Good Morning!
Please send the bad VFD to Big Clive, he is a very knowwagable electronics youtuber, he will be able to tell you what happened to it.
Id watch that autopsy video.
Chris and Clive have collaborated before.
The second unit had a bulging capacitor on that circuit board.
Cheap capacitor blew its mind
I found those small drives don’t like the hot temperatures on those rooftop cabinets
STAY HONEST.....NO LOSS THERE SIR....
At the start I would do a PM, 4 fan relays, 4 capacitors and fan motor 1,2,4.
It’s funny. The way you do business is almost identical to the way we do business except for we would prefer to have the maintenance program in order to keep things from breaking for the customer.
Lots of customers think it’s cheaper to pay for service calls all the time 😂
I like the way of explaining and going through diagnosis steps, like to chat with you with quick phone call
17:46 the unit is ready for takeoff lol
Does the electrical box with the failed VFD turn south? Electrolytic caps + lower voltage (meaning higher currents) + excessive heat = short lifespan.
Seems from the footage that this unit might turn south wile the other unit with the good vfd turns west (lower heat over the day)
Love the US made blower motor and capacitors!!
#respect from Az. lake havasu city
I might be messing stuff up. But I believe that in one video you said that VFD literally blew someone straight in face. Considering how much havoc they make when failing. It's just nothing more than dangerous stuff.
blowing caps is a serious OVERvolting sign! That means that there are maybe voltage peaks or spikes due to a loose connection, startin/stoping motors or lightning strikes.
You should put in an surge protector in that unit and put a ferrite core around the mains input!
If you’re replacing a Faulty Condenser Motor isn’t always best to replace the capacitor as well?
Has anything ever blown up after you've said "123 please don't blow up"?
His video titled “I accidentally let the smoke out”
wow dude learn so much
You could experiment with ferrite beads on the power inputs to the VFDs to limit the effect of lightning and switching transients.
Perhaps that electrical cabinet is south facing and getting hotter that the other units on that roof. Heat kills VFDs. Perhaps some sort of venting for the cabinet
30:37
Chris: (talking about VFD failures) "There's a VFD in that unit there..."
Me: So, what's the line voltage in that unit?
It would be interesting to see what voltage the other units are seeing. Are they all seeing 201v or is there something bad between that unit and the panel? I have seen cheap breakers (knockoffs) causing weird voltage drops for just one circuit.
Is there a way to divert some filtered air back to the drive? Can the drive be relocated into the filtered air stream?
They have to be getting bad power. Or brownouts, this being California.
But the fact that that many components failed, and they're all power components says a lot. It *has* to be an electrical issue.
DID YOU CHECK THE BALANCE OF THE WINDINGS ON THE MOTOR U-V-W???
you can cycle the fans on with the control to check....easy ...or jump out the relays as long as you check ohms and capacitors ...it would of took 2 min to check
Hey @Hvacr What watch is that you be wearing I've been wanting to buy it the moment I saw you started to wear it in your videos, it's the black & blue digital one?
I'm wondering if you're having trouble with that VFD because it's outdoors. Those Mitsubishi units are usually pretty solid.
Does Viper HD work really good on microchannel if it gets really hogged up with grease? Only seen like 2 Lennox units around here mainly Trane/York/Carrier.
I'm not trying to be nitpicky or anything. Just trying to be helpful.
The stuff on the compressor that you called arc flash was probably residue from the electrolytic capacitors venting. It takes a whole lot more than 208 volts to arc that far.
Now, I'd like to know who designed the system like that to cause those capacitors to vent so hard that it blew the cover off. That's that's a bad design for a slew of reasons
Yes, given good services then we is in their list.
Oof, that’s that nightmare job. Hate those, main reason I refused commercial. I don’t wanna spend all day at one job, when you can go to 5 and sell 1-2 system
Maybe upgrade that ground for the vfd, might be a bad connection on the ground. Thanks for the content :)
Have you thought of making metal heat sink fins for your caps for these extreme temps? They might last longer.
Do you think a contactor with an overload relay would help protect the indoor motor?
You might get an optical tachometer to see how fast those fans are running, to take that guesswork out.
Whats that usb connection used for near motherboard
Are the units with the VFD's the same tonnage and configuration? If so, you could have an airflow problem on the unit that keeps failing. Outside of that, my gut tells me the manufacturer spec'd a VFD that was too small for the service it is running in. VFD's are switchmode power conversion electronics, something that likes clean cool air. There is a reason they keep server rooms cold. Electronics out in the elements won't last as long as ones in a controlled environment.
It would be neat to do a failure analysis on the dead VFD and see what caused the failure.
Why did you take the fan blades off when you were replacing them or do they have to?