SUBMARINE TIME- Angel Reaction - 5x13 - Why We Fight
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Full and early reactions on patreon: / thelexicrowd
Angel's past comes to haunt him. An ally from World War II takes Fred, Gunn, and Wes hostage while seeking Angel. This is the only vampire Angel sired after he got his soul back. Angel relives the past and must determine his future.
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The vampire Angel, cursed with a soul, moves to Los Angeles and aids people with supernatural-related problems while questing for his own redemption.
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#reaction #angel
Not sure if you caught it, one of the men who sent Angel to the sub (6:54) was from the Demon Research Initiative. As in... the INITIATIVE ;)
And they were after the nazi research about experimentation on vamps. Which they kept working on. Eventually leading to spikes chip 😆
@@Salixhartlepool Yes, as in real life, the US were very keen on getting their hands on what the Germans were up to in their research. Plus the advanced sub. And I don't think that Buffy S4 was the end of the Initiative. They just shut down that one location.
Wow. I don't think I've ever made that association, but it makes a bunch of sense.
I really liked this episode. Though, I agree it would have been nice i’d attention was paid to Cordy this episode. But I think this show has been inconsistent with reacting to events.
I think part of the problem is that they only show it if it moves the plot forward. If it’s not serving the plot then it kinda gets swept under the rug.
Jenny Calendar, Doyle, Buffy’s mom, Tara, all got major coverage because they propelled the plot forward.
Xander’s best bro got zilch after the Harvest. I can’t even remember his name. He’s never mentioned again. And Scott Hope was treated like a creep for dumping Buffy just a week or so after losing two of his closest life long friends. Buffy was so upset after Jenny died her slayer immune system was compromised and she got the flu.
Even the magic shop owner Spike killed got a funeral because it served to fake out Cordy’s death. So in a way Cordy did have a funeral for a moment, just about five seasons too early.
My guess is that this kind of long form story telling was still kinda new outside of soaps. There was still a tendency to tell episodic stories mixed in with longer arcs. Newer shows may just completely discard these episodes, especially with far shorter streaming seasons.
Lexi, I am so beyond sorry for the loss of your fur baby. My heart breaks for you and your family. Rest easy, sweet baby Zsófi. Thank you for bringing love and joy for 18 beautiful years.
1 - I think the reason why Angel didn't kill The Prince of Lies and left Sam go was because he just didn't care that much. This is the same Angel that soon after would let a bunch of people die in a hotel by not killing the demon that was feeding from them, and this is also the Angel that in the 70's would drink from a man that got shot. Let's just say that before meeting Buffy and finding a purpose he wasn't the most caring person in the world, despite eventually feeling guilty.
2 - I'm pretty sure the reason why Cordelia wasn't mentioned was because "You're Welcome" was conceived as a special episode due to it being the 100th and Charisma's return. Not to mention that originally it was SMG who was going to appear. The writers, despite making it important for Angel's arc, didn't think too much about how her death should impact the overall season.
3 - Darla never told Spike or Drusilla about Angel. To them, she just wanted to kill a clan of gypsies and that's it. She felt ashamed about Angel's curse. When they were in China Spike still thought that he was Angelus, and soon after he left Darla went back to The Master, leaving Spike without any answers.
9:22 No only Darla knew, Spike worked it out when he was acting different in Buffy Season 2.
Yes
Spike didn't know Angel had a soul in School Hard, his first appearance. For him to know in 1900, Darla would have needed to tell him. Spike wasn't there when Darla confronted him about only eating violent criminals.
I'm not at all bothered by the lack of extra drawn out mourning. Joyce was the only character to get such a treatment, and I feel like the writers were uninterested in repeating a similar story for an entire episode instead of the occasional reference that was given to Jenny, Tara, and Doyle. It also fits the characters. Angel broods, Wesley internalizes, everyone else is busied with their tasks. I never got the impression that none of them were hurting just because we don't see it on screen.
I think they were planning on having a 6th season but at some point in season 5 they found out this was the last one so had to hurry up the planned ending.
It was somewhere around this time actually.. either right before or after they were recording the Cordy episode, Joss pushed the studio hard about renewal, forcing them to decide early whether Angel was getting renewed or not b/c he wanted to plan the next two seasons, and it backfired because they basically said "Fine if you're gonna be pushy it's done"!
If he'd waited longer the Season 5 ratings would probably have convinced them to renew a 6th season.
The Prince of Lies was played by Camden Toy (May 31, 1955 - December 11, 2023)
RIP.
"Sometimes they come out of graves and it takes days for burial."
Considering Sunnydale's death rate, their funeral industry has probably become pretty efficient. Like a pit crew at an auto race.
Great ! Now, everytime I'll rewatch an episode of BTVS with a burial, I will have the image of the little fenwick in Cars saying "Pit Stop !"
In my head canon, the majority of funeral workers in Sunnydale are necromancers. They don't replace their blood with preservatives and the coffins aren't put in burial vaults.
The Prince of Lies was played by the late Camden Toy.
17:15 My idea to explain that is they heal their bodies before they can wake up, And they can only to that at night. So they wake up at night when they're healed of anything that happened.
I haven't seen anything from the main characters that shows they have made it a point to show they feel nothing about Cordy's death. This episode was specific about the moments in the story they chose to show and since this was not a "let's be sad about Cordy" episode we have to assume they mourned her in a way that was more private than entertaining. This show is fictional entertainment based in fantasy, not a reality based documentary about actual human beings in pain grieving over the loss of a loved one.
If you assume these characters don't give a shit you really don't know them at all
Not everyone grieves the same way. Angel has lived most of his life dealing with lose Cordy was important but she was in his life for less than a faction of it. It's the same as when he got over Buffy he grieved for a bit and then he got over it.
Fair bit of headcanon here but I always figured the "the time it takes to become a vampire varies wildly" thing was sort of similar to the "the older a vampire is the more monstrous they look" thing. Vampires like Angel, Darla, Spike, if they turn someone it's somewhat quicker, or they know you can feed a bit more blood to make it quicker or something. It'd be something you're taught by your sire.
Whereas most vampires in Buffy and Angel are kinda the scrubs of the vampire world, they're the product of basically accidental siring or the sire just didn't care about bringing someone into the vampire world, the corpse gets found, buried, etc and then comes back. Like that vampire Darla tried to get to sire her in S2 of Angel, where he's like, barely aware of what siring even is or how to do it.
A little continuity error here; In season 2 when Angel was considering siring Darla again when she was dying, he mentioned he didn't know what would happen and thought maybe it would be different because he had a soul. Clearly he should've known it wouldn't have made a difference considering how Lawson turned out.
It actually was over a year since we lost the real Cordy since she left at the end of season 3 when she went up to the higher realm. That was not really her that came back in S4. Her body had already been taken over by the fallen PTB.
Yeah, but that was her last ep
Here come all the crybabies complaining this episode wasn't 100% dedicated to setting up the last episode so it must be filler.
Thank goodness we didn't have internet or all of these people would complain about classic shows like Star Trek not being dedicated to 1 season long story
Nothing is more real than not wanting to talk about hard things.
This episode was a reminder, in the final season, that the show is called "Angel". As for Cordelia, there was a whole thing going on between Joss Whedon and Charisma Carpenter, so a) we were lucky that she agreed to come back for the send off episodeand and b) it's why Cordelia herself was never actually in Season 4
I don´t think Lawson being a weird vampire has anything to do with Angel's soul. Lawson was an honorable good guy, with a mission he valued more than his life, similar to Captain America (the reason why they mention Cap in the episode). So now he is a vampire filled with a "connection to evil" (like the therapy vampire says in Buffy S07E07) and nothing else, but he feels the need to have a mission because in his core, that's who he is. There are many times during Buffy and Angel where you see that the Vampire retains traits from his living life, if he was a bad person, he is a horrible vampire, if she was a ditzy girl, she is a funny kinda "follow the leader" vampire. The problem with Lawson is that being a vampire came with no obligation or purpose, witch was something he valued to his core in life. I think this episode kinda answers the question no one asked: What if Steve Rogers was turned into a vampire?
I never assumed Darla told Spike and Dru what was going on with Angel and the curse. I could see her keeping it to herself more than telling them. As far as not having an episode showing all the other characters mourning Cordy? I'm good with that happening off screen. There's no doubt how much they loved her and I think to revisit the last episode takes away how perfect it is and how hard it hits. This episode though... Not one of my faves. Angel turning someone after he got his soul back is interesting, but I could never work out how this episode had a purpose. Which is interesting now that I think about it, since that was a main theme of this script.
"We represent a relatively new organization" "Who Wolfram and Hart?" Nah, Wolfram and Hart are ancient.
Such a strange episode, but it's odd to try to figure out why, as there isn't actually anything wrong with it. I think, for some, it has more to do wih the fact that this episode is what follows Cordelia's death and she isn't mentioned or RIP-ed by the characters in any way.
If you haven’t already, when you are done with the series, look up the reason for Charisma Carpenter’s departure from the show. Do not do this until you finish the show.
As others have said, this episode is weird. My interpretation has been that 1) At some point even the writers realized that drawing attention to how they had done Charisma/ Cordy dirty was a bad idea 2) This is a "breather" episode to give the Angel characters --- and the audience --- time to mourn and decompress after Cordy's death without actually mentioning it. Hence why there's so little modern day stuff. 3) 2.02 was a great episode.... let try that again... but with Spike!
I really wish they explored this a little more. What does it mean for a souled vampire to sire a spawn.
I’m at the part where you’re saying how long she knew these people…. Let’s not forget she’s known Angel since season one of Buffy and supposedly he loves her. Yeah sure. And she’s known Wes since the Buffy days too.
Looking forward to seeing the next episode reaction 😃 ⏰
The hotel was in the 50s. Hello 👋🏻.
What struck me about this episode is that I know many of the writers in The Buffyverse also worked on the X-Files, but this episode is so much similar to the X-Files episode Triangle, where Mulder and Scully end up on ship full of Nazis during WW2. Great writing again here, and a very different type of episode, but still keeping up the brilliance of S5. A great ending when Angel forces the stake back against Sam Lawson.
I was Rasputin's lover!!!
7:04 No The Initiative, From Buffy Season 4.
Who's your kitty? The hotel ep is set in the 50s.
I like the elements of this episode in isolation. I'm interested in WWII / submarine warfare. I like exploring the idea of someone being sired by a souled Angel and what the implications of that might be. Seeing the Initiative back then makes you wonder what else they did through the years - that could be a whole separate Buffyverse flavored Agent Carter show. It just doesn't all hang together... and for an episode titled "Why We Fight", I'm not feeling the "why" in it as it relates to the rest of Season 5.
School Hard, when Spike invades the school and Angel shows up and they decide to have a drink together (Xander)? He'd heard things but didn't believe them fully until that moment. Darla was disgusted by Angel and couldn't bring herself to even think about what he'd become, so makes sense she wouldn't talk about it to two people she never saw as equals.
I really don't think charisma wanted to go back to Angel after what happened and also becoming a Mam. After the last episode I only ever saw her in bit parts alot of the time with James/Spike. Great video as always 😊💜🐾👍
Regarding Cordelia, I interpret Angel as in denial right now.
I actually really like this episode, with what Lawson represents. “One person damned to make the world safe for future generations” is ironic in multiple ways, considering how Angel got to this point.
Great reaction. This ep was so much fun - showing us Angel and Spike in the past, the intriguing notion of what could happen if a vampire with a soul sires another vampire. And the real reason why Angel and Spike are so much more interesting than old school vamps - they have style! Love the fact that Spike loved leather even back in the 40's.
As for your comments on Cordy - did she have the best character arc of them all? We started off hating her in Buffy season 1 - then slowly grew to love her. Then on Angel she really became the heart and soul of the show.
Kind of a filler episode. I do like what Angel says in the last scene and how it fits with the season's overall theme of him losing his sense of purpose. Several episodes like Numero Cinco, Soul Purpose, Destiny, You're Welcome etc. show he is having an identity crisis with regards to his mission. This comes to a head in the final episodes and I think they resolve it out nicely.
To be fair, Capt America was a new character at the time
Oh, you're going to really get emotional these next few episodes. Can't wait for that, Lol
So 5x14 is my favorite episode of Angel. It may not be the best episodes but it's still my favorite!
Not yet bro… nearly
Don't have a problem with Spike not knowing but still agree he should not have been there. Incredibly convoluted
the hotel incident was later. That was during the cold war. This was during WWII.
Great episode, very underrated.
Does she not know about the behind the scenes drama with Charisma and the show runners?
From here on, all the chapters are good and there are also very good ones. For me
27:00 I don't think Spike knew why they were there, Or cared all he heard was "Wanna go torture some people?"
Is he loosing his "powers of lawyering"? :D. Yes he is. Which is no irrelevant development.
A Great "Bottle Episode" (pun intended).
I always thought the last scene WAS about Cordelia.
Angel: "I don't think that was what he was after."
Spike: "So what was he after?"
Angel: "A reason."
Or something like that.
After Cordelia's death, Angel's looking for a reason too, to continue on without the hope of getting her back. At least while she was in a coma, he had the hope of her waking up.
On another note, not looking forward to episode 14. Kinda wish it could be skipped. lol
This episode has always felt "off" to me. Even if it weren't right after the 100th. Almost everything about the flashback is ridiculous (most notably the simple fact that Spike and Angel met up in 1943 and that that's never been mentioned before). The present-day stuff is like five minutes. I don't even _dislike_ the episode per se. It's just kind of nothing.
And certainly it doesn't help that it's sandwiched between two of the best episodes of the whole entire show.
14:46 Like with the chip that was in Spike in Buffy Season 4.
U understand what was said, thank u for translating
the DEFINITION of a filler episode. i was so bored the entire time, and no mention of Cordelia right after You’re Welcome is craaazy
Careful what you wish for
I always loved the title of this episode. I even used it in a fanfic I wrote eons ago.
23:10 weird take from you, Cordelia had a proper send off, why ruin it the next episode.
Omg hi kitty
The show couldn’t afford Spike and Cordelia, they burned there bridge with charisma so they went with spike
Ep 14 here we come!
I thought angel/angelous as two different entitles is only a thing -- im thinking mid Buffy??
they started splitting him into 2people say,
Anyone from before,, actually anyone out of buffy or angel groups would plainly
call him Angelous
Yeah not too fond of the episode ether, not seeing where they were going with it,
Maybe another reminder angel is a vampire and can turn people and the soul thing too
❤🧡💛💚💙💜
The english accent in the german parts have been really hard and not everything was understandable. 'Innerbrain stimulation and control/power over subdemons, more specific/precisely vampires' would be more or less the literally translation.
Its not uncommon that the storylines are continued only each 2nd episode and sometimes the affect of a loss kicks in suddenly and after a while and not immediately, so wait & see what happens in the reat of the season.
Angel 👏🏾 isnt 👏🏾 Buffy 👏🏾.
The government men reminded me of cancer man from X-files
That's interesting that nazis in this ep wanted to use vamps/supernatural creatures as their solders while at the same time scientists of Initiative was trying to create a supernatural solder in their laboratory as part of research sponsored by the Pentagon and with their approval. Which is not such a surprise considering that some nazis, scientists were taken to usa and started working for it's government after the fall of the third reich because they were 'valuable asset'. So circle has closed.
Also I don't want Lawson to be portrayed as a bad guy here who should be killed. He was a good guy who was turned into the vampire by Angel. And later he regretted it, the life he had and what he became. And he didn't have a soul. Something that Angelus could never do, regret who he is, he thought that he is the best out there and he was enjoying everything. And yet he got lucky to have a soul which eventually got him this life that he has now, much better and much more respected than he had. While others should be killed.
Only 10 episodes to go! Sadly, this one is always kind of a yawner, but at least the other 9 are all amazing!
imo the story of the episode is fine, but it's frustrating not to mention the events of the previous episode in any way. Even if it was just a one off line between a character or two in passing. It feels too disconnected. It's probably because they didn't know it was their last season at this point, but still.
dear Lexi the reason you didn't get the proper treatment of Cordy was because of the drama behind the show because of outrageous behavior from Joss Wheadon
I agree but the Angel writers and Actors really didn’t support Charisma. It was in and out for her. David takes care of himself and Alexis is a good friend of Joss. Amy Acker was very loyal to Joss since she was favored by him. He always favored her and Alyson Hannigan. I mean I remember this stuff from whispering back when the show was airing. I was so upset for Charisma back then I saw the photos and clips from the 100th episode party where she brought her son along. Joss is a dick but so is David I hate to say it because I’m a big fan but he also cheated on his wife among other things…. Joss would spite the fans to take out his anger on charisma because he had a crush on her and decided to abuse her to show his power.
For me, this is the worst episode of the entire series. It was sooo boring and unnecessary.
But that's the break. Their formula for giving you a filler in between something big about to drop...or just did.
One of the worst ep of angel
This is a filler episode, like so many others this season. I always omit it