Hey, Lore! I wrote a long but supportive comment and then edited it but got an error failed to post comment and it disappeared. I hope you didn't delete it and it was just a system bug. Anyway, I will try to rewrite it and copy it to clipboard so hopefully won't lose it again. So I will start with saying I'm a trans person myself, in this case trans woman, and I'm totally fine with what you said. I don't think you said anything offensive in this video and was kind of anticipating for when this would eventually come up and wanted to say thank you for making this rumination. Regarding what Worf said that it just disturbs him and he gave no reason for it, I agree that is a human reaction in the sense that it is a reaction that people would tend to have. In real life, usually this reaction to a trans person for example would come with much more negative assertions and tone, and I like how they toned it down with Worf because after all he lives in a space faring civilization where multiple different species that are sentient and sapient is quite common so they should be relatively aware of how people being different doesn't make them bad. His reaction seems to entail that he is aware that he has no reason that he would agree with himself on it, whereas in real life most people may often think they do have a reason, but if you had a conversation and try to push them on it, you would find it boils down to some form of irrational disgust. So I liked it that even as the representative of that point of view, it was tempered by that apparent self awareness. Regarding the general LGBT issues brought up in this episode, it was made at a time when awareness of gender and sex and trans people wasn't even starting in mainstream media, whereas now we are still in the midst of it starting to happen. So they mixed up a lot between gender (which has to do with identity) and sexuality (which has to do with attraction). It was obvious that they do have sexual dimorphism (because they were played by human actors) and that they do have some limited form of gender (she did use female pronouns) and the crux of the issues brought up seems to be acting on sexual desires, and back then the fight for gay rights was more prominent and relevant much like trans issues are being fought for today. However, we know today there is nothing preventing from a trans woman for example being lesbian and/or asexual, so we understand gender, sex and sexuality are different things but this episode conflates between all of those i.e. either you are allowed to have gender and act on your natural straightness, or you're not... there is no consideration of gender seperate from sexuality. However again, as an episode that came up at that time, it was a positive step in the direction of bringing up gender as a subject at all into mainstream media. Certainly it is better that they tried to tackle the issue than not at all, and we can discuss today the limitations they had then and learn from that today. As for the episode being good as a piece of entertainment, I agree with you it was kind of meh. There is no obligation for pro LGBT media to be considered by pro LGBT to be good as far as entertainment value. Something can be pro LGBT and still a piece of garbage story wise. I think it is hard to write good LGBT stories because these things are still largely misunderstood and also because you can't have them just be LGBT in the background like you would expect them to be in an interstellar multi species society - the very fact that they are shown to exist or displayed is considered to be a controversial statement in our society where these things are outside the norm, so it makes it hard to have LGBT representation be subtle, especially if you are miseducated on the subject. In summation, you didn't put your foot in your mouth, you didn't say anything terrible and I still love you and support you continuing to make more videos, Lore.
Mem-summary: Riker falls in love with Soren, a member of an androgynous race known as the J'naii, who dares to be female (An episode with a sad ending, not very common. Interesting episode!)
I mostly agree but I also see the scene as more someone being forced to say they've been "fixed" when in fact it's not true. Friends family and society can provide a ton of pressure to conform even with freedom so tantalizingly close. Freaks me out because I've experienced that myself *Shudder*
For me it's not implying that it works or condones it and shows it to be a more extreme measure by a callous society. Just because an unpleasant idea or event is portrayed on a screen does not mean that the act is being promoted or supported in my opinion.
Lore, my man, you are so respectful and intelligent, and just generally thoughtful in a time when curtesy is weaponized. I would rather hear your honest contemplations on this topic than anyone else attempting to do so without bias. Because you have two traits you wield above all else, and above all others: You admit and acknowledge your biases and your difference in perspective. You don’t let that stop you from having that viewpoint and sharing it in a rational manner. I honestly like this episode for what it could have been, but also because it works to inform “the other side”. Identity issues often fall on deaf ears because of preemptive bias from those who don’t identify with them, while those who do already know. The reversal of someone wanting to become what the majority considers “normal” and being denied that gives those who are already “normal” a basis on which to realize how horrible it is to be forced to be other than what you are, regardless of details.
I find it a testament to how vile the internet is that you're not allowed to discuss controversial topics when reviewing a franchise that has been hitting controversial topics for 60 years.
Well, let's just wade into this minefield, shall we? (nervous laughter) I think the best description of this episode came from "Jammer's Reviews" - "Good intentions here. Not much else." First and foremost, why the hell is Riker, of all the main characters, the lead in this story?! Look, I'm sorry, but Riker just doesn't strike me as someone who would fall head over heels in love with Soren - a dull, uninteresting, mouse of a person whose sexual organs consist of a husk inseminator. He's always been portrayed as a skirt-chaser, as someone more interested in the physical side of attraction. The story almost screams for LaForge to be the one who falls for Soren. Given his troubled love-life, I can see LaForge falling for Soren as she can provide the emotional side of attraction (instead of the physical side which Riker would be looking for). And, given that Riker and Soren first interact in a tech-heavy B-plot, it feels like it was written for LaForge but the writers just plugged Riker in instead in order to give Jonathan Frakes something to do. Second, the scene with Worf being off-put by the J'naii rubs me the wrong way as well. Not only is it character assassination on Worf just so he can look like the stereotypical oaf, but it also sends out some rather contradictory messages. The episode literally bends over backwards to say that we should celebrate diversity and that people shouldn't be forced to be the same as the group. But then, Worf is raked over the coals for finding the J'naii off-puting for being so uniformly similar. Which is it? If we celebrate diversity, shouldn't we find the non-diversity of the J'naii unsettling? Pick one. Third, there's the heavy-handedness of the allegory. I usually hate it when Trek tries to do an explicitly "Message Episode" because that almost always means they're going to break out their trusty 2x4 and beat the audience upside the head with it for 45 minutes. Does anybody remember that sledgehammer to the face known as TOS: "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"? "The Outcast" is no different than any other message episode in that regard. DS9's "Rejoined" did a much better job with this same controversial topic in my opinion, because that episode was actually subtle in it's message. The fact that it was two women in that episode considering a relationship with other didn't even register on the other characters, no one ever raised an eyebrow. And isn't that want gay-rights advocates have always said they want - a society where nobody cares if you're gay or not? Finally, the B-plot. Yeah, it's boring and pedantic. But, it also contains one enormous plot-hole. How is it that the J'naii are part of the interstellar community (to the point where interacting with Federation ships is second nature) and yet they don't know that their own freaking star system has these huge pockets of "null space" in it? That's hard to believe. I'm not scoring this one. That's one mine-field I'm not wading into.
I'm mildly disappointed you don't like this episode like I do but that's ok. I don't think I substantially disagree with you on any of your points anyways. But for me, seeing this episode as a kid, it meant the world to me. It's lost in translation a little I think, looking at it now in 2020. In my household this sort of thing wasn't discussed, it was meant to be loathed in secret. But surrounded by all that hate, this episode made me feel better. I think it's worth keeping in mind how rare that was in those days. I can't help but forgive it for it's flaws.
Yeah, I do remember being made fun of for being a Trekkie. By people wearing shirts of soccer teams. And beating each other up for liking different soccer teams. I never understood why that is more socially acceptable than liking a TV show, book series or roleplaying games.
I think it was a bold episode, considering when it was made. The truth of the statement 'What's Old is New' applies here, in that gender identity issues have become a major theme of contention in media/social media/political media. Whether the larger populace as a whole considers this discourse a major issue is probably more debatable. I too thought Worf's vignettes were among the more interesting. I liked how he volunteered to assist Riker's quixotic mission.
As an aside, I remember getting home from college with my brother, putting on the TV and seeing Riker pissed off, roll credits and I said "Ah The Outcast." So my brother checks the TV guide and then says "How do you know, from a 1 sec clip of Riker, exactly which episode it is? HOW?"
I'd have liked a man to play the role as well. That said, I don't dislike the actress' performance, and I thought their chemistry was okay for a one-episode romance. The scene in the shuttlecraft where she reveals her true nature stands out. Worf being a bigot, though? That felt forced and out of character.
Comment after rumination I can not help but think of the Orivile and commander Bortus with the Maylon episodes and their gentder conformity to all male. They had a couple seasons to flesh it all out more. I liked the parts where she was asking about gender, it was her discovery of the what she is but never knew about before, I thought it was beautiful. I liked Rikers' question of who leads when your dance, that was brilliantly brushed off with her answer, loved that too. For the Klingon comparison, Klingsons are said to be half Samuri and half Viking warrior, Viking -- Scandinavian culture was very equal in those harsh conditions, working their butts off equally to survive, I think Klingon woman in Star Trek come from that. There is amazing gender equality in Klingon woman of the future as there is/was gender equality of pre-industrial age Scandinavian woman. The bullying story hit it home for me too, I think I was touched in my youth by Riker and Worf trying to save her from the bullies more than anything. First they save the shuttle crew from a natural phenomenon and succeeds: and then tries to save her from the cultural phenomenon and fails.
Despite everything that's wrong with this episode, and all the gender stuff, I liked how, at the end of the episode, we are faced with the fact that Riker was prepared to go against the prime directive and throw away his career and his life to do what he thought was right and save this woman. Picard understands this urge and respects it, while also knowing that he would have to do his duty and report it to Starfleet if Riker had gone through with it. When he checks with Riker at the very end that their business with the J'naii is done and Riker realises all hope is lost, I like to think that Picard saw him leave earlier, and knew he had to try at least, but he gave him the benefit of the doubt and didn't reprimand him.
Good job Lore, I can just imagine the thought process trying to get through this possible minefield of an episode. Anyway, I agree with your assessment. It seems like the actor or director made the idea for Soren to be a slow build-up to attraction, but never got past the initial awkward phase into what we'd consider more realistic flirting and attraction leading to love. The show's run- time doesn't help with that, so possibly the pacing was a bit off. This episode definitely seems to resonate in a different way watching it now, but the ideas in the episode and the bigotry explored is pretty accurate. I did like how Picard approached the situation at the very end, asking Riker without hinting at the details if he was ready for them to depart....very well done and subtle.
Just a comment, as someone who is completely male, but so often gets called 'Ma'am' over the phone or over radios/fast food ordering boxes, I would argue that people cannot always and easily tell someone's gender by their voice.
Completely agree with you. This episode isn't a good one. It tries to be about transgenderism (I guess) but just didn't work. P.S. The term you're looking for is "two-hander".
I very, very much appreciate your civility and temperness when it comes to these controversial topics. I'm just going to go out and say on a limb that anyone, be they some transphobe or a gender-diverse person themself (which I am, to clarify) who would spit vitriol at people like you, are just being pointlessly rude and antagonistic. Yeah, I disagree on a couple of things, and fairly strongly on a few, that you said about gender and pronouns and such throughout the video, but frankly, I don't give a crap about that if you're going out of your way to be civil, understanding, and sensitive to your limitations in discussing these topics, while also just saying what you think. I think the world would be a far better place if more people had a level head and could respectfully discuss and disagree with each other without flinging poo and spitting bile, in the way you have throughout these ruminations. It's just always a treat to go through and listen to these from time to time.
Being that this episode is 27 years old, Paramount had to still play it safe for family TV. I know people who were greatly offended by this episode. Then they found out their child does not fit the norm.
comment before watching rumination. Back when it aired it was a commentary on homosexuality, today it is a near literal interpretation. Holy Cow, how far we have either come or gone back. I also love how Worf was right there and ready to help him get his . . . love interest back. Also, the spacial anomaly around the star system was one that always stuck with me. I'm not a flat Earther or anything, but how do we know for sure that our star system isn't surounded by an anomaly that distorts our entire perception of the Universe? I'm sure many of us have played with creating our own Star Trek series, one of my favourite characters I've created for my own fiction is from a system like this requiring them to come up with an entirely different Warp propulsion system to explore the galaxy (Omega particles isolated from the rest of the galaxy and no danger within the system), because normal Warp drive would never work within it.
I applaud Star Trek for addressing a transgender theme. But I think the problem with the episode is: 1. There didn’t seem to be any chemistry in the way Riker felt for Soren, so it’s dumbfounding how he developed a relationship with Soren. 2. I think it’s the director’s fault that Soren was so flat. I think the director confused androgyny with lack of emotion.
This episode isn't great, but the fact that they even dared to touch on this topic at all is actually somewhat praiseworthy. I thought Orville did some very interesting things on Gender (or biological sex, depending on how you look at it), actually very much like this episode.
I think it did a good job for the time it was made. The episode isn't so good to watch but i think it start a talk in a time where no one would even think that gender identity is relevant. The end with the mind wash, where it fix NOTHING but kill a person personality was good. It's also good that it has a sad and bad ending. The actress for me did a good job, she sound alien, something that for people, someone as she would be "alien". Judge it in 2020 is easy to see how weak it is over today talk and definitions of that subject. But for the time it's bold and forward as hell.. in fact even more than today if we think how far in the past this subject is talk in this episode. Also, i agree with Rick Berman, for the time, have a gay kiss with Riker and a Male actor would bring back lash.
I thought this episode was 'working,' more-or-less, until the ending, where the conversion therapy was shown to 'work.' I don't think it works as a gay-awareness show, but it does a decent job as a trans-awareness show (made in 1992 anyway), up until that point. Then it just kinda went downhill for me, and I really had a hard time justifying why I thought it worked at all. B/c 'conversion therapy' doesn't work, and showing that it does kinda undoes all the positive messages it was trying to pull up until that point.
I don't think the gay metaphor works. If Willow and Tara go on a date people can see they are both women. However if Soren and Bob go on a date there would be no way to know that one is identifying as female and the other male.
When I watched it I found it kinda boring for the most part and slightly below average, since it's just a regular meaningless romance of the week pretending to be something worth caring about (as if that romance actually means anything). Then I got to the end of the episode where in my opinion everyone starts acting out of character and the quality plummets. It jumps to my mind associated with that episode about environmentalism with the Warp Drive thing, as examples of some of Star Trek's bad "message" episodes. It's also a bit of a salt rubbing on the wound that an episode so intent on blatantly preaching a message doesn't have the balls to actually do it for real on camera by casting a male actor. That DS9 episode with Dax's previous wife was infinitely better (and subtler) insofar as having an acceptance message (ironic, since it shows on camera a same sex kiss). Edit: also, on a personal note, I find it a bit disappointing on its face to bring up an agender/unisex species, which could be explored as a really different and interesting culture alien to pretty much everyone else we've seen so far, only to immediately cut off that potential with a story entirely based on "oh yeah they actually do kinda have male and female just like we do"
If this episode were made today, the internet would be on fire, screaming it's too "woke". I agree it would have worked better if there was some actual chemistry, but by the end the person is essentially made Tranquil, like from Dragon Age.
This episode is generally a skip for me, you nailed it it's just boring. That's all I have to say I'm not going to go at all into its relevance to the real world that is not a bag I will open.
On the upside, kudos to TNG for portraying non-binary characters in 1992, even if they aren't humans. Of course, they're portrayed as bigots, but obviously that was to demonstrate the bigotry of those humans who believe in 2 genders and 1 sexual orientation even though reality disagrees with them. But it was a bad episode for a lot of reasons: 1. Quite simply, I don't believe that Riker and Soren could have fallen in love that quickly: Riker's old enough and experienced enough in relationships to know what love is, and what it isn't, and he knows full well it takes more than a week. Soren, sure, I could imagine that happening, but not Riker. 2. I get the impression the J'naii were instructed to behave not entirely differently from the Binars. They're all strangely unemotional, even when they're making what are supposed to be impassioned speeches. It's not just the actress who plays Soren - Soren's boss and the judge also both show the same problem. 3. The "null space" plot was complete nonsense. We have a technically advanced space-faring people, with apparently a strong scientific mindset, who somehow don't know about something right near their planet. Oh, and of course they have no effect on galactic politics, and we never hear from them again. Classic "threat of the week" BS. 4. Why are there absolutely no consequences to either Worf or Riker for disobeying the Prime Directive, direct orders from Picard, and beating up a couple of J'Naii cops? At the very least, there should have been an angry speech by Picard in his ready room, and probably a reprimand on both their records.
I agree with most of the points you make, Lore. I have always found this episode trite, boring, and completely devoid of anything entertaining. It’s like when they want to do a message show, they lost their minds and sacrifice all quality for the sake of forcing the message on us, and we end up with terrible acting, out-of-character moments, and a horribly constructed script while the message comes off as completely ham-fisted. I’m okay with them portraying a side of an issue that I have strong disagreement with (as I do with parts of this one), as long as it is well-presented and intellectually engaging. Instead, we usually get something that is lazily thrown together and easy to skip over because it is absolutely dreck.
Worf is bothered porbably because he is a stereotypical hardcore sexist. He knows why. He just doesn't want to think about it. The episode is garbag anyhow. The writers were trying to do something they had no grasp of.
This was dull episode I'm not going to lie. But thankfully the episodes prior and after are much better. An androgynous race that looks like humans I can see why this episode does upset many people even if this doesn't upset me in the slightest.
Lamentable episode. The theoretical message will fly over the heads of homophobes and transphobes. It will even reinforce prejudices against us and our so-called “agenda.” They tried to do “Let This Be Your Last Battlefield,” it turned into the LGBTQ “Code of Honor.” Disappointed in 1992, now I’m embarrassed. Ironic that a “gay” episode should be so sad and dull. Instead of one of our colurful Pride parades, we get a grey Puritan funeral. Berman is a Romulan. Lore: thanks for tackling a difficult episode with courage, eloquence and openness.
This was dull episode I'm not going to lie. But thankfully the episodes prior and after are much better. An androgynous race that looks like humans I can see why this episode does upset many people even if this doesn't upset me in the slightest.
![Let's Watch - Star Trek: The Next Generation [117. The Outcast - Ft. Clay]](/img/1.gif)
Hey, Lore! I wrote a long but supportive comment and then edited it but got an error failed to post comment and it disappeared. I hope you didn't delete it and it was just a system bug. Anyway, I will try to rewrite it and copy it to clipboard so hopefully won't lose it again.
So I will start with saying I'm a trans person myself, in this case trans woman, and I'm totally fine with what you said. I don't think you said anything offensive in this video and was kind of anticipating for when this would eventually come up and wanted to say thank you for making this rumination.
Regarding what Worf said that it just disturbs him and he gave no reason for it, I agree that is a human reaction in the sense that it is a reaction that people would tend to have. In real life, usually this reaction to a trans person for example would come with much more negative assertions and tone, and I like how they toned it down with Worf because after all he lives in a space faring civilization where multiple different species that are sentient and sapient is quite common so they should be relatively aware of how people being different doesn't make them bad. His reaction seems to entail that he is aware that he has no reason that he would agree with himself on it, whereas in real life most people may often think they do have a reason, but if you had a conversation and try to push them on it, you would find it boils down to some form of irrational disgust. So I liked it that even as the representative of that point of view, it was tempered by that apparent self awareness.
Regarding the general LGBT issues brought up in this episode, it was made at a time when awareness of gender and sex and trans people wasn't even starting in mainstream media, whereas now we are still in the midst of it starting to happen. So they mixed up a lot between gender (which has to do with identity) and sexuality (which has to do with attraction). It was obvious that they do have sexual dimorphism (because they were played by human actors) and that they do have some limited form of gender (she did use female pronouns) and the crux of the issues brought up seems to be acting on sexual desires, and back then the fight for gay rights was more prominent and relevant much like trans issues are being fought for today. However, we know today there is nothing preventing from a trans woman for example being lesbian and/or asexual, so we understand gender, sex and sexuality are different things but this episode conflates between all of those i.e. either you are allowed to have gender and act on your natural straightness, or you're not... there is no consideration of gender seperate from sexuality.
However again, as an episode that came up at that time, it was a positive step in the direction of bringing up gender as a subject at all into mainstream media. Certainly it is better that they tried to tackle the issue than not at all, and we can discuss today the limitations they had then and learn from that today.
As for the episode being good as a piece of entertainment, I agree with you it was kind of meh. There is no obligation for pro LGBT media to be considered by pro LGBT to be good as far as entertainment value. Something can be pro LGBT and still a piece of garbage story wise. I think it is hard to write good LGBT stories because these things are still largely misunderstood and also because you can't have them just be LGBT in the background like you would expect them to be in an interstellar multi species society - the very fact that they are shown to exist or displayed is considered to be a controversial statement in our society where these things are outside the norm, so it makes it hard to have LGBT representation be subtle, especially if you are miseducated on the subject.
In summation, you didn't put your foot in your mouth, you didn't say anything terrible and I still love you and support you continuing to make more videos, Lore.
Mem-summary: Riker falls in love with Soren, a member of an androgynous race known as the J'naii, who dares to be female (An episode with a sad ending, not very common. Interesting episode!)
And as an analogy the episode fails horribly by implying that conversion therapy works. It does not.
I mostly agree but I also see the scene as more someone being forced to say they've been "fixed" when in fact it's not true. Friends family and society can provide a ton of pressure to conform even with freedom so tantalizingly close. Freaks me out because I've experienced that myself *Shudder*
True, but I took it as whatever they did for conversion was more invasive than what is being done in real life
Thank you for emphasizing that! That huge mistake ruined the episode for me, and it's a very dangerous implication!
I mean, brain surgery might do something. I think her 'treatment' was quite involved
For me it's not implying that it works or condones it and shows it to be a more extreme measure by a callous society. Just because an unpleasant idea or event is portrayed on a screen does not mean that the act is being promoted or supported in my opinion.
I love these videos. A nice, Civil breakdown of what works, what didn't, and what was going on behind the scenes with historical context.
Lore, my man, you are so respectful and intelligent, and just generally thoughtful in a time when curtesy is weaponized. I would rather hear your honest contemplations on this topic than anyone else attempting to do so without bias. Because you have two traits you wield above all else, and above all others:
You admit and acknowledge your biases and your difference in perspective.
You don’t let that stop you from having that viewpoint and sharing it in a rational manner.
I honestly like this episode for what it could have been, but also because it works to inform “the other side”. Identity issues often fall on deaf ears because of preemptive bias from those who don’t identify with them, while those who do already know. The reversal of someone wanting to become what the majority considers “normal” and being denied that gives those who are already “normal” a basis on which to realize how horrible it is to be forced to be other than what you are, regardless of details.
For what it's worth, I think you did a really good job discussing the issues involved while staying fair and logical the whole time.
It doesn’t matter who you are. You can always have an opinion on anything.
I find it a testament to how vile the internet is that you're not allowed to discuss controversial topics when reviewing a franchise that has been hitting controversial topics for 60 years.
episode: has romance
lore: "i dont really like this episode"
I hate how he lets that prejudice of his get in the way.
I got bullied at school for liking D&D. Then after my parents found out they sent me to talk with their church pastor to cure me of liking D&D.
I hope you still like D&D
Well, let's just wade into this minefield, shall we? (nervous laughter)
I think the best description of this episode came from "Jammer's Reviews" - "Good intentions here. Not much else."
First and foremost, why the hell is Riker, of all the main characters, the lead in this story?! Look, I'm sorry, but Riker just doesn't strike me as someone who would fall head over heels in love with Soren - a dull, uninteresting, mouse of a person whose sexual organs consist of a husk inseminator. He's always been portrayed as a skirt-chaser, as someone more interested in the physical side of attraction. The story almost screams for LaForge to be the one who falls for Soren. Given his troubled love-life, I can see LaForge falling for Soren as she can provide the emotional side of attraction (instead of the physical side which Riker would be looking for). And, given that Riker and Soren first interact in a tech-heavy B-plot, it feels like it was written for LaForge but the writers just plugged Riker in instead in order to give Jonathan Frakes something to do.
Second, the scene with Worf being off-put by the J'naii rubs me the wrong way as well. Not only is it character assassination on Worf just so he can look like the stereotypical oaf, but it also sends out some rather contradictory messages. The episode literally bends over backwards to say that we should celebrate diversity and that people shouldn't be forced to be the same as the group. But then, Worf is raked over the coals for finding the J'naii off-puting for being so uniformly similar. Which is it? If we celebrate diversity, shouldn't we find the non-diversity of the J'naii unsettling? Pick one.
Third, there's the heavy-handedness of the allegory. I usually hate it when Trek tries to do an explicitly "Message Episode" because that almost always means they're going to break out their trusty 2x4 and beat the audience upside the head with it for 45 minutes. Does anybody remember that sledgehammer to the face known as TOS: "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"? "The Outcast" is no different than any other message episode in that regard. DS9's "Rejoined" did a much better job with this same controversial topic in my opinion, because that episode was actually subtle in it's message. The fact that it was two women in that episode considering a relationship with other didn't even register on the other characters, no one ever raised an eyebrow. And isn't that want gay-rights advocates have always said they want - a society where nobody cares if you're gay or not?
Finally, the B-plot. Yeah, it's boring and pedantic. But, it also contains one enormous plot-hole. How is it that the J'naii are part of the interstellar community (to the point where interacting with Federation ships is second nature) and yet they don't know that their own freaking star system has these huge pockets of "null space" in it? That's hard to believe.
I'm not scoring this one. That's one mine-field I'm not wading into.
It figures that a conservative would hate this episode.
I'm mildly disappointed you don't like this episode like I do but that's ok. I don't think I substantially disagree with you on any of your points anyways. But for me, seeing this episode as a kid, it meant the world to me. It's lost in translation a little I think, looking at it now in 2020. In my household this sort of thing wasn't discussed, it was meant to be loathed in secret. But surrounded by all that hate, this episode made me feel better. I think it's worth keeping in mind how rare that was in those days. I can't help but forgive it for it's flaws.
The actor who played J'naii was wearing eye shadow during the teaser. Just a observation.
Yeah, I do remember being made fun of for being a Trekkie.
By people wearing shirts of soccer teams. And beating each other up for liking different soccer teams.
I never understood why that is more socially acceptable than liking a TV show, book series or roleplaying games.
I think it was a bold episode, considering when it was made. The truth of the statement 'What's Old is New' applies here, in that gender identity issues have become a major theme of contention in media/social media/political media. Whether the larger populace as a whole considers this discourse a major issue is probably more debatable. I too thought Worf's vignettes were among the more interesting. I liked how he volunteered to assist Riker's quixotic mission.
As an aside, I remember getting home from college with my brother, putting on the TV and seeing Riker pissed off, roll credits and I said "Ah The Outcast." So my brother checks the TV guide and then says "How do you know, from a 1 sec clip of Riker, exactly which episode it is? HOW?"
I'd have liked a man to play the role as well. That said, I don't dislike the actress' performance, and I thought their chemistry was okay for a one-episode romance. The scene in the shuttlecraft where she reveals her true nature stands out.
Worf being a bigot, though? That felt forced and out of character.
Comment after rumination
I can not help but think of the Orivile and commander Bortus with the Maylon episodes and their gentder conformity to all male. They had a couple seasons to flesh it all out more.
I liked the parts where she was asking about gender, it was her discovery of the what she is but never knew about before, I thought it was beautiful. I liked Rikers' question of who leads when your dance, that was brilliantly brushed off with her answer, loved that too.
For the Klingon comparison, Klingsons are said to be half Samuri and half Viking warrior, Viking -- Scandinavian culture was very equal in those harsh conditions, working their butts off equally to survive, I think Klingon woman in Star Trek come from that. There is amazing gender equality in Klingon woman of the future as there is/was gender equality of pre-industrial age Scandinavian woman.
The bullying story hit it home for me too, I think I was touched in my youth by Riker and Worf trying to save her from the bullies more than anything. First they save the shuttle crew from a natural phenomenon and succeeds: and then tries to save her from the cultural phenomenon and fails.
Despite everything that's wrong with this episode, and all the gender stuff, I liked how, at the end of the episode, we are faced with the fact that Riker was prepared to go against the prime directive and throw away his career and his life to do what he thought was right and save this woman. Picard understands this urge and respects it, while also knowing that he would have to do his duty and report it to Starfleet if Riker had gone through with it. When he checks with Riker at the very end that their business with the J'naii is done and Riker realises all hope is lost, I like to think that Picard saw him leave earlier, and knew he had to try at least, but he gave him the benefit of the doubt and didn't reprimand him.
Good job Lore, I can just imagine the thought process trying to get through this possible minefield of an episode. Anyway, I agree with your assessment. It seems like the actor or director made the idea for Soren to be a slow build-up to attraction, but never got past the initial awkward phase into what we'd consider more realistic flirting and attraction leading to love. The show's run-
time doesn't help with that, so possibly the pacing was a bit off.
This episode definitely seems to resonate in a different way watching it now, but the ideas in the episode and the bigotry explored is pretty accurate.
I did like how Picard approached the situation at the very end, asking Riker without hinting at the details if he was ready for them to depart....very well done and subtle.
Just a comment, as someone who is completely male, but so often gets called 'Ma'am' over the phone or over radios/fast food ordering boxes, I would argue that people cannot always and easily tell someone's gender by their voice.
Completely agree with you. This episode isn't a good one. It tries to be about transgenderism (I guess) but just didn't work.
P.S. The term you're looking for is "two-hander".
I very, very much appreciate your civility and temperness when it comes to these controversial topics. I'm just going to go out and say on a limb that anyone, be they some transphobe or a gender-diverse person themself (which I am, to clarify) who would spit vitriol at people like you, are just being pointlessly rude and antagonistic. Yeah, I disagree on a couple of things, and fairly strongly on a few, that you said about gender and pronouns and such throughout the video, but frankly, I don't give a crap about that if you're going out of your way to be civil, understanding, and sensitive to your limitations in discussing these topics, while also just saying what you think. I think the world would be a far better place if more people had a level head and could respectfully discuss and disagree with each other without flinging poo and spitting bile, in the way you have throughout these ruminations. It's just always a treat to go through and listen to these from time to time.
Being that this episode is 27 years old, Paramount had to still play it safe for family TV. I know people who were greatly offended by this episode. Then they found out their child does not fit the norm.
comment before watching rumination.
Back when it aired it was a commentary on homosexuality, today it is a near literal interpretation. Holy Cow, how far we have either come or gone back.
I also love how Worf was right there and ready to help him get his . . . love interest back.
Also, the spacial anomaly around the star system was one that always stuck with me. I'm not a flat Earther or anything, but how do we know for sure that our star system isn't surounded by an anomaly that distorts our entire perception of the Universe? I'm sure many of us have played with creating our own Star Trek series, one of my favourite characters I've created for my own fiction is from a system like this requiring them to come up with an entirely different Warp propulsion system to explore the galaxy (Omega particles isolated from the rest of the galaxy and no danger within the system), because normal Warp drive would never work within it.
I applaud Star Trek for addressing a transgender theme. But I think the problem with the episode is:
1. There didn’t seem to be any chemistry in the way Riker felt for Soren, so it’s dumbfounding how he developed a relationship with Soren.
2. I think it’s the director’s fault that Soren was so flat. I think the director confused androgyny with lack of emotion.
This episode isn't great, but the fact that they even dared to touch on this topic at all is actually somewhat praiseworthy. I thought Orville did some very interesting things on Gender (or biological sex, depending on how you look at it), actually very much like this episode.
I doubt the Orville could do any justice, considering what a transphobe that fuckface MacFarlane is.
24:37 - Yes I do.
So Do I
I think it did a good job for the time it was made.
The episode isn't so good to watch but i think it start a talk in a time where no one would even think that gender identity is relevant.
The end with the mind wash, where it fix NOTHING but kill a person personality was good. It's also good that it has a sad and bad ending.
The actress for me did a good job, she sound alien, something that for people, someone as she would be "alien".
Judge it in 2020 is easy to see how weak it is over today talk and definitions of that subject.
But for the time it's bold and forward as hell.. in fact even more than today if we think how far in the past this subject is talk in this episode.
Also, i agree with Rick Berman, for the time, have a gay kiss with Riker and a Male actor would bring back lash.
I thought this episode was 'working,' more-or-less, until the ending, where the conversion therapy was shown to 'work.' I don't think it works as a gay-awareness show, but it does a decent job as a trans-awareness show (made in 1992 anyway), up until that point. Then it just kinda went downhill for me, and I really had a hard time justifying why I thought it worked at all.
B/c 'conversion therapy' doesn't work, and showing that it does kinda undoes all the positive messages it was trying to pull up until that point.
I don't think the gay metaphor works. If Willow and Tara go on a date people can see they are both women. However if Soren and Bob go on a date there would be no way to know that one is identifying as female and the other male.
I like the concept of this ep a lot, but yeah, it fails in execution.
When I watched it I found it kinda boring for the most part and slightly below average, since it's just a regular meaningless romance of the week pretending to be something worth caring about (as if that romance actually means anything). Then I got to the end of the episode where in my opinion everyone starts acting out of character and the quality plummets. It jumps to my mind associated with that episode about environmentalism with the Warp Drive thing, as examples of some of Star Trek's bad "message" episodes. It's also a bit of a salt rubbing on the wound that an episode so intent on blatantly preaching a message doesn't have the balls to actually do it for real on camera by casting a male actor. That DS9 episode with Dax's previous wife was infinitely better (and subtler) insofar as having an acceptance message (ironic, since it shows on camera a same sex kiss).
Edit: also, on a personal note, I find it a bit disappointing on its face to bring up an agender/unisex species, which could be explored as a really different and interesting culture alien to pretty much everyone else we've seen so far, only to immediately cut off that potential with a story entirely based on "oh yeah they actually do kinda have male and female just like we do"
If this episode were made today, the internet would be on fire, screaming it's too "woke". I agree it would have worked better if there was some actual chemistry, but by the end the person is essentially made Tranquil, like from Dragon Age.
This episode is generally a skip for me, you nailed it it's just boring. That's all I have to say I'm not going to go at all into its relevance to the real world that is not a bag I will open.
The brief and elegant depiction of gender identity problem in the episode The Host does a much better job of it than this clunker.
I thought this episode reeled very flat and forced. Nice review though, Lore 🖖
On the upside, kudos to TNG for portraying non-binary characters in 1992, even if they aren't humans. Of course, they're portrayed as bigots, but obviously that was to demonstrate the bigotry of those humans who believe in 2 genders and 1 sexual orientation even though reality disagrees with them.
But it was a bad episode for a lot of reasons:
1. Quite simply, I don't believe that Riker and Soren could have fallen in love that quickly: Riker's old enough and experienced enough in relationships to know what love is, and what it isn't, and he knows full well it takes more than a week. Soren, sure, I could imagine that happening, but not Riker.
2. I get the impression the J'naii were instructed to behave not entirely differently from the Binars. They're all strangely unemotional, even when they're making what are supposed to be impassioned speeches. It's not just the actress who plays Soren - Soren's boss and the judge also both show the same problem.
3. The "null space" plot was complete nonsense. We have a technically advanced space-faring people, with apparently a strong scientific mindset, who somehow don't know about something right near their planet. Oh, and of course they have no effect on galactic politics, and we never hear from them again. Classic "threat of the week" BS.
4. Why are there absolutely no consequences to either Worf or Riker for disobeying the Prime Directive, direct orders from Picard, and beating up a couple of J'Naii cops? At the very least, there should have been an angry speech by Picard in his ready room, and probably a reprimand on both their records.
I agree with most of the points you make, Lore. I have always found this episode trite, boring, and completely devoid of anything entertaining. It’s like when they want to do a message show, they lost their minds and sacrifice all quality for the sake of forcing the message on us, and we end up with terrible acting, out-of-character moments, and a horribly constructed script while the message comes off as completely ham-fisted. I’m okay with them portraying a side of an issue that I have strong disagreement with (as I do with parts of this one), as long as it is well-presented and intellectually engaging. Instead, we usually get something that is lazily thrown together and easy to skip over because it is absolutely dreck.
*assorted uncivil commentary*
Worf is bothered porbably because he is a stereotypical hardcore sexist. He knows why. He just doesn't want to think about it. The episode is garbag anyhow. The writers were trying to do something they had no grasp of.
This was dull episode I'm not going to lie. But thankfully the episodes prior and after are much better. An androgynous race that looks like humans I can see why this episode does upset many people even if this doesn't upset me in the slightest.
Lamentable episode. The theoretical message will fly over the heads of homophobes and transphobes. It will even reinforce prejudices against us and our so-called “agenda.” They tried to do “Let This Be Your Last Battlefield,” it turned into the LGBTQ “Code of Honor.” Disappointed in 1992, now I’m embarrassed. Ironic that a “gay” episode should be so sad and dull. Instead of one of our colurful Pride parades, we get a grey Puritan funeral. Berman is a Romulan.
Lore: thanks for tackling a difficult episode with courage, eloquence and openness.
"Keep it civil" on an episode about gender in 2020... yeah, no, not very likely.
This was dull episode I'm not going to lie. But thankfully the episodes prior and after are much better. An androgynous race that looks like humans I can see why this episode does upset many people even if this doesn't upset me in the slightest.