Thanks Hank. And you have no idea how spot on your comment is. I was starting to wonder a little bit about my shooting abilities with the pre64 model 70. You know the old question, was it me or the rifle. Well it sure was nice to be out there with a rifle and results where I didn't have to guess and left the range knowing I could still shoot a decent group. That was a good feeling.
Watching this on Mother’s Day of 2021 with an inch of snow in my yard here in north western pa. Good video as always Tom. Deep down in my heart, I just knew they would group better this time.
Thanks Robert, and I thought they would too but it sure was a relief when they actually did. And hopefully things warm up soon. This has been one of the coolest springs in years.
Nice work Tom. I was looking forward to this range review. I like your common sense gun philosophy with respect to hunting vs target rifles. Stay well.
Well I gotta say, Excellent Job, its about 4AM here and I got up just to see if you had posted this and it was worth the wait. Time you get your load development done you might have one hole wonders...looking very much fwd to seeing the refinishing get started...have a great day and God Bless
Pretty awesome results there Tom. As soon as my ammo comes in for the new to me model 70 I recently bought in .300 win mag im going to see where she's at on paper as well. Couldn't find any ammo in a 50 mile radius around me in south central Pa so had to order online. Should be here in a couple weeks
Tom , I just saw this today on 4/27/24. I have recently bought a Sporterized Mauser 98 and a 03/A3 . Very similar rifles as yours . The 03/A3 has a Williams peep sight and a Lyman front sight. The barrel has been cut to 20 inches. The Mauser 98 is drilled and tapped. Both have Sporterized stock. I may have to attempt to bed the actions . Hopefully I will follow your process to the letter.😊
I have a win 70 featherweight in 7 mag that I could never get under 3" I tried bedding the action and the barrel first tightened up a bit, but not good enough so I Free floated the barrel and it got worse, then I figured i'll try something I've never seen before seating the barrel at the fore end of the stock on a spring with a groove to accommodate the barrel inletted into the stock adjustable with the sling swivel stud that has a locking nut after that I was @ 1.27" on first group after adjusting final group was .539".
I've always been amazed at what can make certain rifles group. With the Lee Enfield No1 MkIII's they have a spring in forend where an extra screw attaches the stock to a boss on the barrel. Adjusting that screw and spring tension has a similar affect as what you just described. And I can't being to describe all the methods I've read about for getting a Ruger No1 to shoot. It's just amazing how each rifle can react to the smallest changes. And I'm glad you figured yours out because I would have never guessed at trying that. Good call!
Those two rifles are shooters, that's for sure. My pick would be the 1903, seemed to develop a tighter group more quickly. As far as the finishes are concerned, I might consider sprucing up the FN a bit but I think I'd let the Springfield go, as-is. Looks like your bedding on these two brought positive results. Keep us posted on your progress. Thanks for sharing! Take care and be well.
Thanks Paul and I have been struggling with what to do on the 1903a3. The smart thing would be to leave it like it is, but I think it's going to be a good rifle for me to learn some things on? And I think I can turn it into a pretty good looking rifle even though looks don't have a thing to with killing deer. And I'm with you, the 1903 is my pick as well. I was amazed at how quick it settled in. And trustfully I don't think I would be worried about trying to make it look good if wasn't for just how impressed I was with it.
Thanks Kent, and that's what I was thinking. I can't wait to get a few more rounds through that FN!. And I can't wait for load development. The load I used was just full length sized brass and the length was just to the standard length for that bullet. I haven't checked distance to the lands or anything yet. I'm just wondering how small a group are these rifles going to shoot?
It has been my experience that free floating a typical factory barrel (Thin) generally makes it worse. I usually go with bedding for a "Woods" deer rifle. I have worked on model 70's that had stocks so tight that it looked like the wood grew around the barrel and they were very accurate. Some guns just shoot. I have shot old 98 Mausers that had the steps on the outside of the barrel out of alignment so bad it looked like they turned one, pulled it out of the lathe chuck and turned another, and so on. With factory wood some of these guns were awesome shooters.
Hey Tom, excellent results. I would never have thought the 03 would have out shot the FN. Now you have a dilemma for sure lol. If it were me, I would slap a Boyd's laminated stock on that 03. What about a Timney trigger for the FN. I put one on my Interarms Mark X 7x57 a few months back. Tremendous difference in groups.
I was just as surprised as anyone with the a3. And I have been thinking about different stock options now that I know it's a real shooter and I thought about a Boyd's stock. But I think I'm going to see just how nice I can make the stock that's on it? It's going to be work but I think I can turn it into something really nice. If not I should learn a few things trying and if it doesn't work then I'll get a Boyd's or try to find a really nice custom stock for 03a3. There should be a few of those out there in need of a good rifle? And I wouldn't discount the FN yet. I have no doubt at all the fist group was the scope settling in and saw that same change in point of impact after two shots right after mounting the scope on one of the Winchesters. Plus I figured there would be a little settling with the bedding. I wasn't kidding when I said I wished I had 4 more shots for it. Those last three shots were really showing what sort of potential it has. And as for the trigger, it has an outstanding trigger. The trigger on it was made made by Sako and it's fully adjustable. And the most exciting part is I haven't even started load testing. I should be able to cut those groups in half with fire formed brass and load development?
It really depends on the rifle and cartridge for my accuracy expectations. For a 24" barrel long action that I plan on reaching out there with I want it to be sub M.O.A. or at least close to 1 MOA. For an intermediate range rifle and cartridge (out to 200 yards) I don't mind it being 2 MOA. Of course the reloader in me wants everything sub 1/2 MOA but the hunter in me knows it just isn't necessary.
Most of my guns go from 1.5 MOA to .5 MOA with free-floating and Accra glass bedding. My little 600 and a 243 will cloverleaf after bedding. They also have one and a quarter pound triggers. I’m also shooting handloads. If I really want to tighten my groups and I don't care about the Woodstock I just replace them with HS precision full length aluminum bedding block stocks. All my rifles will shoot .3" with habd loads at 200 yards with HS stocks. That's with hand loads with 1 1/4 pound triggers in a lead sled. My 300 RUM will even shoot that good till the barrel heats up on the 4th shot.
I'm just getting started with a Peruvian Modelo 1935 FN Mauser in 30-06. I have been getting 3-4" groups with iron sights. I want to put a scope on it, to see what it's capable of, without making any permanent alterations. Looking for a scope mount that will work.
It sounds like you've made some progress based on another post. Just be careful and make sure the mount is solid. I've had issues in the past with drop in mounts like those.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Yeah. I would probably return it to original sights, once I can know what it's capable of, and put the scope on something else. I know I could just go out and buy a Bergara, but I feel like this classic deserves some TLC, like the rifles in your videos.
Good point there Ken! LOL But in my defense I was just shooting for group size. After I find the load that shoots the smallest group then I adjust my zero.
Joe, if you're referring to trigger weight I like to be around 3 to 3.5 lbs but I've never really worried that much about trigger weight. So long as the trigger weight is less than half the weight of the rifle and no lower than 3 lbs I'm good.
Help me. Hello sir am Indian. I just got a new bolt action rifle le enfied no 4 mark 1. Same copy Indian made my 315 bore rifle 8mm cartilage. When I cock my rifle, I feel the bolt push forward. And the bullet comes out very tight and sticks out. Some people believe that the composition of the pills is not correct. Some people asked me if my rifle was new and it would get better. Tell me why Bolt throws bullets out of the chamber. Why does the bullet get stuck। please tips smooth work my bolt
Rabi you have some issues going on there. First, unless it was barrelled it's not an 8mm. The cartridge should be .303 British and it's 0.311" or 0.312" in diameter. An 8mm is 0.323" so if you have 8mm cartridges then that would be the problem. It also sounds like you need to have a gunsmith check it out. The problems you're having shouldn't be happening and anytime something isn't right with a firearm your first stop should be to see a gunsmith. I hope that helps and I hope you figure out the problem. Good luck.
Cut the back of the bolt off of the 1903 Springfield. It will look more like a sporting rifle. You probably will have to go to a heavier Bolt assembly spring.
Jack, I haven't experimented with a de-resonator, but I have to wonder just how much of a difference they can make? Maybe that's something I'll try out this year.
The 03 and mausers are weak actions. Metallurgy and heat treatment is suspect not to mention the unsupported case head. Modern actions with multiple locking lugs in sets of 3 or more are much safer. They lock up like a bank vault. I had a 1917 custom when working the bolt a piece of it broke off! Brittle action. Be aware of what ARMORY it came out of.
A few years ago my brother-in-law went to the range with me and he his Savage in 30-06. After a couple of shots the threaded bolt in the side rifle bolt just broke and the bolt head fell out in his hand and this was a 90's model Savage 110. That sort of stuff can happen with any of them. But I do agree that we have to be careful with the older rifles and that's mainly for the early 03's.
You're right. You can shoot with the length of pull to short but that can still turn out bad. If you've ever noticed target shooters that keep their thump on the same side of the stock as their palm, that came from the 1903. The length of pull was so short a lot of people would hit their nose with their thump from the recoil. I really didn't think they where that bad but after getting mind I have to say I'm glad it has a 1 inch recoil pad because I really wouldn't care to have my thumb any closer to my nose!
I knew Tikkas weren't fully floated initially but I had heard they started free floating them over the last few years? But I haven't seen one personally to verify that. And I'm really surprised the Vanguards aren't. Thanks for the info on that.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving had the howa. It was. It vanguards are not. They even mentioned on their website or did. It is supported because it is a thin barrel. Well tikkas are thin as well and they have a plastic support about 3 inches past the receiver on their plastic sticks
How does free-floating affect anything as the gun and scope are not moving in relation to one another. It is fixed. You aim with scope and cannot see how you can change anything by doing work on the stock.
Ed, the bedding is part of what helps there and that just makes it fit the stock better which makes each shot more consistent. Then free floating the barrel keeps the barrel from changing the point of impact because as the barrel heats up from shooting and the steel expanding from the heat. If the barrel touches the stock when it expands it can put pressure wherever it's touching and change the point of impact. I hope that helps?
BACK in early 60-s I red someone writing 06 was most " tested" cartridge ever. He was not a u tuber.he went thru load development with us gov .in " our" up coming matches whith ruskies.( afoot ball team from outer mongolia) oh youngsters gone ? Good.ok it was proven 172 grain bullets performed best accuracy. Not quite 2700 ? Well don't remember that s.w.c. wrote it on the wall. No accident o6 can make do in most ( biggest) variety of combinations situations. Only problem if there is one is. Manufactured variances between 1906 and 2022. In chamber length/ doughnut tolerance.🦬🦬🦬🦬🐎🐎
Rod, I have to wonder how much an inch has changed since then? I mean that seriously because I know we can measure more precisely now and it makes me wonder how the standard itself has changed since then?
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This is one of the most under rated channels on RUclips. There's a lot of wisdom about rifles to be had here.
Thank you Luke. I really appreciate that.
Mo noloo@@TomRiverSimpleLiving
Another great video Tom. Really enjoy them👍
Glad you like them!
I always love seeing shots going in the same hole. Awesome job!
Thanks a lot!
Love following you Tom! Very interesting and informative stuff.
Thanks Ken
Can't argue with results. Good job Tom!
Thanks Luvta Handload. And I have to admit I was expecting that myself.
Congratulations. I know it is gratifying to get positive results from your efforts. I am glad it worked out well.
Thanks Mark, and you're right that was a good feeling.
That's a confidence builder for certain, well done Tom!!
Thanks Hank. And you have no idea how spot on your comment is. I was starting to wonder a little bit about my shooting abilities with the pre64 model 70. You know the old question, was it me or the rifle. Well it sure was nice to be out there with a rifle and results where I didn't have to guess and left the range knowing I could still shoot a decent group. That was a good feeling.
Watching this on Mother’s Day of 2021 with an inch of snow in my yard here in north western pa. Good video as always Tom. Deep down in my heart, I just knew they would group better this time.
Thanks Robert, and I thought they would too but it sure was a relief when they actually did.
And hopefully things warm up soon. This has been one of the coolest springs in years.
Nice work Tom. I was looking forward to this range review. I like your common sense gun philosophy with respect to hunting vs target rifles. Stay well.
Well I gotta say, Excellent Job, its about 4AM here and I got up just to see if you had posted this and it was worth the wait. Time you get your load development done you might have one hole wonders...looking very much fwd to seeing the refinishing get started...have a great day and God Bless
Thanks Lee!
Excellent, well-presented information. Thanks! I subscribed!!!
Thanks Manny
Another great video Tom and I agree with another viewer the show should be seen by way more people
Thanks Aaron
The 1903 is one pretty old rifle im in love with it
Thanks Robert, and I have to admit I am to!
Great work and good shooting
Thanks Drew
That was a big improvement on both rifles. Looking forward to seeing what's next for them.
Thanks Slick. I have to admit I wasn't excepting that out of either of them.
Pretty awesome results there Tom. As soon as my ammo comes in for the new to me model 70 I recently bought in .300 win mag im going to see where she's at on paper as well. Couldn't find any ammo in a 50 mile radius around me in south central Pa so had to order online. Should be here in a couple weeks
Great results! Those are two fine hunting rifles and fun projects.
Thanks Alan.
Love it good video.😊😊
very interesting, good job.
Thank you!
Super good shooting!
Thanks Daniel
Great Video
Thanks!
Tom , I just saw this today on 4/27/24. I have recently bought a Sporterized Mauser 98 and a 03/A3 . Very similar rifles as yours . The 03/A3 has a Williams peep sight and a Lyman front sight. The barrel has been cut to 20 inches. The Mauser 98 is drilled and tapped. Both have Sporterized stock. I may have to attempt to bed the actions . Hopefully I will follow your process to the letter.😊
This man has the best voice i have ever heard.
Thanks Teddy!
Good job
Nice vidios
I have a win 70 featherweight in 7 mag that I could never get under 3" I tried bedding the action and the barrel first tightened up a bit, but not good enough so I Free floated the barrel and it got worse, then I figured i'll try something I've never seen before seating the barrel at the fore end of the stock on a spring with a groove to accommodate the barrel inletted into the stock adjustable with the sling swivel stud that has a locking nut after that I was @ 1.27" on first group after adjusting final group was .539".
I've always been amazed at what can make certain rifles group. With the Lee Enfield No1 MkIII's they have a spring in forend where an extra screw attaches the stock to a boss on the barrel. Adjusting that screw and spring tension has a similar affect as what you just described. And I can't being to describe all the methods I've read about for getting a Ruger No1 to shoot. It's just amazing how each rifle can react to the smallest changes. And I'm glad you figured yours out because I would have never guessed at trying that. Good call!
Those two rifles are shooters, that's for sure. My pick would be the 1903, seemed to develop a tighter group more quickly.
As far as the finishes are concerned, I might consider sprucing up the FN a bit but I think I'd let the Springfield go, as-is.
Looks like your bedding on these two brought positive results. Keep us posted on your progress. Thanks for sharing!
Take care and be well.
Thanks Paul and I have been struggling with what to do on the 1903a3. The smart thing would be to leave it like it is, but I think it's going to be a good rifle for me to learn some things on? And I think I can turn it into a pretty good looking rifle even though looks don't have a thing to with killing deer. And I'm with you, the 1903 is my pick as well. I was amazed at how quick it settled in. And trustfully I don't think I would be worried about trying to make it look good if wasn't for just how impressed I was with it.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Well then, I can't wait to see the finished product. Take it easy!
Nice results! You have a couple of fine hunting rifles there. Job well done. They should be more consistent for day to day, month to month, etc. now.
Thanks Kent, and that's what I was thinking. I can't wait to get a few more rounds through that FN!. And I can't wait for load development. The load I used was just full length sized brass and the length was just to the standard length for that bullet. I haven't checked distance to the lands or anything yet. I'm just wondering how small a group are these rifles going to shoot?
The grouping of 03 Springfield is shooting really good 👍🏻
I was surprised myself by the 1903. It turned out to be a real shooter.
I would like to see what it is after you lap and polish the bore. Nathan Foster of terminal ballistics research has very good instructions on this.
Hi Tom, another terrific video. Well done and thanks again from Australia. BTW, what caliber are these two rifles?
They're both 30-06. And I do apologize for taking so long to reply.
Lightweight barrels such as Weatherby need upward pressure to shoot accurately.
It has been my experience that free floating a typical factory barrel (Thin) generally makes it worse. I usually go with bedding for a "Woods" deer rifle. I have worked on model 70's that had stocks so tight that it looked like the wood grew around the barrel and they were very accurate. Some guns just shoot. I have shot old 98 Mausers that had the steps on the outside of the barrel out of alignment so bad it looked like they turned one, pulled it out of the lathe chuck and turned another, and so on. With factory wood some of these guns were awesome shooters.
I don't buy thin profile barreled guns. I like a mid to heavy profile.
@@VG-913 love the weatherby thin barrels but the group's usually open up as the barrel Heats up. The first one or two shots are the most important.
Woo that 03👍🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Hey Tom, excellent results. I would never have thought the 03 would have out shot the FN. Now you have a dilemma for sure lol. If it were me, I would slap a Boyd's laminated stock on that 03. What about a Timney trigger for the FN. I put one on my Interarms Mark X 7x57 a few months back. Tremendous difference in groups.
The Mauser will most likely prefer the next heavier bullet weight
I was just as surprised as anyone with the a3. And I have been thinking about different stock options now that I know it's a real shooter and I thought about a Boyd's stock. But I think I'm going to see just how nice I can make the stock that's on it? It's going to be work but I think I can turn it into something really nice. If not I should learn a few things trying and if it doesn't work then I'll get a Boyd's or try to find a really nice custom stock for 03a3. There should be a few of those out there in need of a good rifle?
And I wouldn't discount the FN yet. I have no doubt at all the fist group was the scope settling in and saw that same change in point of impact after two shots right after mounting the scope on one of the Winchesters. Plus I figured there would be a little settling with the bedding. I wasn't kidding when I said I wished I had 4 more shots for it. Those last three shots were really showing what sort of potential it has. And as for the trigger, it has an outstanding trigger. The trigger on it was made made by Sako and it's fully adjustable.
And the most exciting part is I haven't even started load testing. I should be able to cut those groups in half with fire formed brass and load development?
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Can't wait. Good projects.
Tom where are you located ? That’s a pretty woods you’re shooting in :)
I would love to sit down over coffee and talk guns with this guy
What is your expectation of your rifles regarding groups for hunting?
Good video. I’m might need to do this to one of mine.
It really depends on the rifle and cartridge for my accuracy expectations. For a 24" barrel long action that I plan on reaching out there with I want it to be sub M.O.A. or at least close to 1 MOA. For an intermediate range rifle and cartridge (out to 200 yards) I don't mind it being 2 MOA. Of course the reloader in me wants everything sub 1/2 MOA but the hunter in me knows it just isn't necessary.
Most of my guns go from 1.5 MOA to .5 MOA with free-floating and Accra glass bedding. My little 600 and a 243 will cloverleaf after bedding. They also have one and a quarter pound triggers. I’m also shooting handloads. If I really want to tighten my groups and I don't care about the Woodstock I just replace them with HS precision full length aluminum bedding block stocks. All my rifles will shoot .3" with habd loads at 200 yards with HS stocks. That's with hand loads with 1 1/4 pound triggers in a lead sled. My 300 RUM will even shoot that good till the barrel heats up on the 4th shot.
It is amazing what bedding and free floating can do for a rifle, even an older one!
I'm just getting started with a Peruvian Modelo 1935 FN Mauser in 30-06. I have been getting 3-4" groups with iron sights. I want to put a scope on it, to see what it's capable of, without making any permanent alterations. Looking for a scope mount that will work.
It sounds like you've made some progress based on another post. Just be careful and make sure the mount is solid. I've had issues in the past with drop in mounts like those.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Yeah. I would probably return it to original sights, once I can know what it's capable of, and put the scope on something else. I know I could just go out and buy a Bergara, but I feel like this classic deserves some TLC, like the rifles in your videos.
I don't think he should be so satified after he missed the bullseye everytime.
Good point there Ken! LOL But in my defense I was just shooting for group size. After I find the load that shoots the smallest group then I adjust my zero.
What did inside of barrel look like how wore was the old guns
Joe they were pretty worn, especially the 1903a3. It some pitting going on in places. But she's still a shooter!
Tom what is target poundage on all your guns
Joe, if you're referring to trigger weight I like to be around 3 to 3.5 lbs but I've never really worried that much about trigger weight. So long as the trigger weight is less than half the weight of the rifle and no lower than 3 lbs I'm good.
Think going back n forth forth 2lb to 4 lb,5lb is messing me up
Mod 70 have adjustable trigger
Help me. Hello sir am Indian. I just got a new bolt action rifle le enfied no 4 mark 1. Same copy Indian made my 315 bore rifle 8mm cartilage. When I cock my rifle, I feel the bolt push forward. And the bullet comes out very tight and sticks out. Some people believe that the composition of the pills is not correct. Some people asked me if my rifle was new and it would get better. Tell me why Bolt throws bullets out of the chamber. Why does the bullet get stuck। please tips smooth work my bolt
Rabi you have some issues going on there. First, unless it was barrelled it's not an 8mm. The cartridge should be .303 British and it's 0.311" or 0.312" in diameter. An 8mm is 0.323" so if you have 8mm cartridges then that would be the problem. It also sounds like you need to have a gunsmith check it out. The problems you're having shouldn't be happening and anytime something isn't right with a firearm your first stop should be to see a gunsmith. I hope that helps and I hope you figure out the problem. Good luck.
Tom if your Boyd stock is shooting sub moa would you bed it.Are leave it alone .
Joe, I wouldn't change a thing on a sub MOA rifle.
Cut the back of the bolt off of the 1903 Springfield. It will look more like a sporting rifle. You probably will have to go to a heavier Bolt assembly spring.
All you need is a barrel de-resonator and tune your barrel to whatever round your shooting. Skip the load development.
Jack, I haven't experimented with a de-resonator, but I have to wonder just how much of a difference they can make? Maybe that's something I'll try out this year.
Are you sure you are not Andy Griffith in disguise?
The 03 and mausers are weak actions. Metallurgy and heat treatment is suspect not to mention the unsupported case head. Modern actions with multiple locking lugs in sets of 3 or more are much safer. They lock up like a bank vault. I had a 1917 custom when working the bolt a piece of it broke off! Brittle action. Be aware of what ARMORY it came out of.
A few years ago my brother-in-law went to the range with me and he his Savage in 30-06. After a couple of shots the threaded bolt in the side rifle bolt just broke and the bolt head fell out in his hand and this was a 90's model Savage 110. That sort of stuff can happen with any of them. But I do agree that we have to be careful with the older rifles and that's mainly for the early 03's.
You can shoot with a length of pull that’s short but it’s tuff to shoot with a length of pull that’s to long
You're right. You can shoot with the length of pull to short but that can still turn out bad. If you've ever noticed target shooters that keep their thump on the same side of the stock as their palm, that came from the 1903. The length of pull was so short a lot of people would hit their nose with their thump from the recoil. I really didn't think they where that bad but after getting mind I have to say I'm glad it has a 1 inch recoil pad because I really wouldn't care to have my thumb any closer to my nose!
Tikkas us are not fully floated and neither are Weatherby vanguard
I knew Tikkas weren't fully floated initially but I had heard they started free floating them over the last few years? But I haven't seen one personally to verify that. And I'm really surprised the Vanguards aren't. Thanks for the info on that.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving had the howa. It was. It vanguards are not. They even mentioned on their website or did. It is supported because it is a thin barrel. Well tikkas are thin as well and they have a plastic support about 3 inches past the receiver on their plastic sticks
How does free-floating affect anything as the gun and scope are not moving in relation to one another. It is fixed. You aim with scope and cannot see how you can change anything by doing work on the stock.
Ed, the bedding is part of what helps there and that just makes it fit the stock better which makes each shot more consistent. Then free floating the barrel keeps the barrel from changing the point of impact because as the barrel heats up from shooting and the steel expanding from the heat. If the barrel touches the stock when it expands it can put pressure wherever it's touching and change the point of impact. I hope that helps?
BACK in early 60-s I red someone writing 06 was most " tested" cartridge ever. He was not a u tuber.he went thru load development with us gov .in " our" up coming matches whith ruskies.( afoot ball team from outer mongolia) oh youngsters gone ? Good.ok it was proven 172 grain bullets performed best accuracy. Not quite 2700 ? Well don't remember that s.w.c. wrote it on the wall.
No accident o6 can make do in most ( biggest) variety of combinations situations.
Only problem if there is one is. Manufactured variances between 1906 and 2022. In chamber length/ doughnut tolerance.🦬🦬🦬🦬🐎🐎
Rod, I have to wonder how much an inch has changed since then? I mean that seriously because I know we can measure more precisely now and it makes me wonder how the standard itself has changed since then?