What Is Stronger? Titanium Armour or Steel Armour? Collab With Knyght Errant
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Both breastplates were made by The forge of Svan, check out their page!
forgeofsvan.com/
Link to Knyght Errant channel
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An armour (spelled armor in the US) is a protective covering that is used to prevent damage from being inflicted to an object, individual, or vehicle by weapons or projectiles, usually during combat, or from damage caused by a potentially dangerous environment or action.
The word "armour" began to appear in the Middle Ages as a derivative of Old French. It is dated from 1297 as a "mail, defensive covering worn in combat". The word originates from the Old French armure, itself derived from the Latin armatura meaning "arms and/or equipment", with the root armare meaning "arms or gear".
Armour has been used throughout recorded history. It has been made from a variety of materials, beginning with rudimentary leather protection and evolving through mail and metal plate into today's modern composites.
Significant factors in the development of armour include the economic and technological necessities of its production. For instance, plate armour first appeared in Medieval Europe when water-powered trip hammers made the formation of plates faster and cheaper.
Well-known armour types in European history include the lorica hamata, lorica squamata, and the lorica segmentata of the Roman legions, the mail hauberk of the early medieval age, and the full steel plate harness worn by later medieval and renaissance knights, and breast and back plates worn by heavy cavalry in several European countries until the first year of World War I (1914-15). The samurai warriors of feudal Japan utilised many types of armour for hundreds of years up to the 19th century.
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Plot armor is best by far.
Frosty Thundertrod someone watched skall here eh?
you fucking legend
Friigin Tirrion
Level one plot armor: you don't need to wear helmets into combat. Ever.
Level one plot weapon: you can slash trough cuirasses of plot-irrelevant characters.
and kill or incapacitate those same characters, even with single, light, glancing slashes.
I think where you'd really notice titanium advantage would be with a full suit. Sure, with one piece doing a few moves in your home, you're not going to notice, but when you have to walk for miles a day and train for hours in it, then the 50% weight difference will be a massive advantage.
You're talking as if anyone would want to suffer underneath a few layers of padded cloth with metal on top of that under the baking heat of the sun. All the time.
Also, nobody actually marched in their armor back then. They would've kept it inside the baggage train and wear in once they were at the battlefield.
@@baronprocrastination1722 if I had a suit of titanium armor I would wear it all the time.
I would probably try to have sex in it as well.... Just use some wd40 for lube.
@@baronprocrastination1722 I'm sure having their armor in the baggage train would be really helpful when their force gets sliced up by cavalry during their march.
@@motthubris5122 I'm pretty sure a cavalry charge without infantry support is nothing short of suicide.
You can't effectively use cavalry in the forest, and the enemy army would've spotted you quite easily in open plains.
It all depends on context, ya see? And I don't think anyone's going to risk their cavalry trying to kill a bunch of knights who are only a portion of the enemy army.
@@baronprocrastination1722 Yeah, context is important. I was thinking of crusades- desert marches
When I was this early people were still making armor from bronze.
Did they run out of iron to make dagger?
Just Noob yes
Good one haha!
Man you and your fancy high tech bronze, back in my day we only had copper armor; we didn't have any spare food, wood, or gold to research them. Send all resources now plz >~
armor research? You require more vespene gas
If I were a medieval knight, thereby being very wealthy, I'd definitely opt for titanium not only because of weight savings but also it's corrosion resistance and low thermal conductivity. I wouldn't need to wear something that's greased up. Exposed to direct sunlight, it wouldn't get as hot. In cold weather, it would drain less body heat. But working titanium would've been a technologic impossibility back then.
You want high thermal conductivity to dump heat faster.
I would have wore something like a dragon skin armour because that would be tough and keep me warm
Alex C Would that be practical in a medieval warzone environment as it won't have been designed with defence from medieval weapons in mind?
Danny Dziedzic physics simulation proves it would be exeptional in comparison to a banana?
Same I would use titanium armor custom high visibility and mobility
It doesn't matter as A Katana will cut through both of them at once. This is clearly documented in one of my favorite anime.
Finally a real expert
Metatron made a video once about how armor was a myth.
Spandau more effective
Jack Good joke
Couldn't stop laughing
Nothing beats weapons of mass seduction!
Hello Noble Ones! I've seen a lot of people suggest simply making the titanium armor thicker to get more strength for equivalent weights of steel. I wanted to address this real quick. This is certainly possible, yes, but it's not necessarily as desirable as it may seem at first glance. The high quality hardened armors of the late medieval period were already considered adequate protection against many of the threats they faced on the battlefield. If we restrict our discussion to high quality armors (of which armor made from titanium would almost certainly be if it were available to our medieval counterparts), the question becomes what's more valuable; the weight savings afforded by titanium, or adding even more strength to something that is already quite strong? At some point, the return on investment of simply going stronger and stronger isn't as high as the value of making adequately strong armor very light. If you can already reliably stop most of the weapons you're facing, more strength doesn't net you any value. On the two ends, you may have a 25 kg war armor that is incredibly strong, or a 15kg harness that's still quite strong but also saves you 10kgs. If this were reality, I would expect a period of experimentation to find the happy medium between both (which may favor one side or the other), with some armors being optimized in each respective direction, but it's important to recognize that there's a lot more to consider than just how strong you can make something, especially when limiting that strength can yield other important benefits to the wearer. The other thing to consider here is that mass can also have benefits under certain circumstances.
So Titanium wins outright then?
If what you're saying is- the slightly under steal strength of Titanium is still as strong as it ever needs to be. Then surely the weight difference is the only difference that actually matters, making this a landslide victory to Titanium? Right?
Got an idea for a part 2- Kevlar vs Gambison or Mail
I'm surprised cost wasn't mentioned though I'm sure most knights would have been able to afford it anyway if it was available.
Also there could be potential benefits to the extra density of steel (though I'd certainly agree less fatigue would... outweigh these benifits
Extra weight would reduce shock in the same way making a gun heavier reduces it's recoil. Being heavier could make you harder to tackle too depending on the technique being used.
+nickylil Surviving war harnesses aren't particularly heavy, all things considered. They tend to fall into the 20-30kg range (roughly 45-65 lbs). Individual surviving breastplates of the late 14th century are also not very heavy on their own, CH13 is 2.5 kgs, CH14 is 2.6kgs and the surviving covered breastplate with fauld from the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum in Munich is 4.5 kgs. Proper medieval horse tack; a good war saddle with a high pommel and cantle, combined with proper technique and training will will likely do more to keep a mounted man-at-arms on his horse than the effect of his armor's weight. If we're talking about purpose-built jousting armor, which is considerably heavier and thicker than field armors, then they will use mass to their benefit much more, but on the battlefield armors were kept as light as possible while still being protective. Also, we must recognize that many fully armored combatants were not on horseback, including upper class and knightly status individuals. The English were notable through the HYW for their tactical preference to dismount the men-at-arms and fight on foot, (Agincourt, Crecy, Poitiers etc.,), and by the early 15th century their harnesses were quite complete.
The question is not whether it makes sense or no to make the armor stronger but heavier in general, the question is whether Titanium can be lighter AND stronger than steel at the same time, because if yes then it would be objectively better for Armour in any situation regardless whether they'll actually make it that heavy or no.
Need to fund a destructive test. Going to be expensive as heaven's pavement with titanium though.
Solar freakin' roadways?
that's what I came here for...
@@mikeobarr8589 Well, there's the yellow brick road.
"We are going to compare them, we are going to wear them" Metatron started using the Royal We, 2018
metatron is royalty.
id rather have a titanium suit, dont have to maintain that stuff.
So essentially both would protect you equally well anybody would probably have better Mobility using titanium
Hi Rafaello, I'd like to use this moment to thank you for what you do, I have learned tonnes from your videos and even used one of it for school (Roman dyes). One of the things I like most is the multi-lingual aspect of your videos, the fact that you use Latin/Japanese words is just great, I think. You should do this more imo :).
The "acting" in the intros is very cool as well and I admire your "courage", by lack of a better word.
Could you make more "debunking" videos?
I liked the video about the translation of the Bible as well, more content like this would also be great, I think.
P.S. do you mind getting asked about a topic by e-mail?
Again, thanks for your effort and content!
Vale.
AGit187 It's Rafaello
Alexius Comnenus Picked it up wrongly from one of his videos then. Thanks, mate!
AGit187 np
*Minecraft taught me Diamond is the toughest* until Terraria came in.
It is the toughest (3rd now) but also very brittle. It wasn't until I was in strength of materials class that I learned there are many different types of strength.
terraria seems to be under the impression that lead is better sword material than copper lol
I wondered if knights would have lined the very top layer of their armor with diamond like how those industrial brick cutters are diamoned tiped. I would belived that they probably would if they figgured out how to do it. If not with the armor then very likely the sharp bits of their weapons.
@@helium-379 what purpose would that serve?
We learnt that an armor made of solid gold doesn't slow you down and is clearly stronger than iron
If anyone wants someone with actual buhurt fighting in experience in both sets of spring steel and titanium armor, including mild, stainless, and spring stainless steel, I shall share my opinion of the two discussed in further details that were neglected or left out experimentation.
1. You never want a titanium helm. If you get hit with any steel weapon, shield, etc... you will be at a high risk of concussions. If you are larping or using foam weapons, you should be fine.
2. Spring steel is more protective for the user. Titanium requires compensation of modification of under padding to reduce trauma damage. As mentioned, it bends in and goes back to memory. This force will transfer through more than spring steel would. Of course, it is better than just the gambeson still.
3. Titanium armor that requires more shape will be more brittle and likely to crack. Spring steel is more durable and longer lasting.
4. Titanium is great for stamina, movement, and endurance. It makes huge difference in performance, comparing a full set of titan and a full set of spring steel. This is why i moved into titanium, so I can go full out and last longer. Spring steel can still be heavy and hindering.
I do not, however, wear titan gauntlets, helms, and cops. Those i have in springsteel to better protect those vital areas.
5. Looks is vanity. Functionality is effective.
Since titanium weighs less than steel, can't you make the titanium breastplate thicker to the point that it would weigh as much as the steel breastplate? And now with the increased thickness will it perform better to protect the body comparable to the same weight steel breastplate?
DerpsAhoy That's what I was thinking 😀
There is really not much of a point to doing that as you are not going to do a lot of damage to someone wearing that armor anytime soon.
You definitely can, but it would make sense only if you against ak47 or something. But then again, why are you in full plate with longsword on the modern battlefield?
Stranger Akari because the you cant crusade properly with m16
You just didn't tried, are you?
(insert pommel reference here)
Pecu Titanium pommel. Faster, stronger, deadlier.
My titanium spork is deadlier than a steel pommel.
inregionecaecorum How about a spork with a pommel attached?
actually since the velocity of a thrown projectile doesn't significantly change until around 1.1 lb, a steel pommel would generate more force on impact.
Just put lead inside the titanium pommel
It would have been more interesting to see titanium armor vs. steel penetration tests using sword and arrows.
Pasta is now my new supplemental vitamin.
That made me laugh too hard.
Also what Manga is for your profile picture?
@@mikhielbluemon4213 It's from a Manga called Holyland.
@@KingBoxer119
Sweet! I'll look into it.
Bounced on my boy's titanium to this for days! Great video as always Metatron, and same to you, Ian. Subscribed to both for a long time. Good to see you collaborating!
Titanium, for the corrosion resistance, and for transport lightness.
As said in baldurs gate, monsters come and go but fatigue is a constant enemy.
as armor Ti would technically be fine, thought its extreme conductivity would make it much more difficult to forge and shape. the argument is usually on Ti swords v FeC swords as far as ive seen. itd be interesting to see a video on that. though since Ti is so lightweight thered be little power behind any strike, especially with medieval swords being as light as they were.
I have fully formed titanium case greaves that were hit forged....it can be done but it requires some learning. Any good armorer of steel can adapt to working titanium. It's not really possible to get lots of crisp fluting and sharp bends as you can in steel, but as long as the shapes are not so demanding, it's doable.
@DkGaston thanks for the reply 6 years after 😭 feels so nostalgic.
@aych131 LOL....RUclips algorithm showed me the video and I didn't even look at how old it was.
Awesome video. Loved the collaboration!
you want your amour to be hard AND tough high end titanium alloys ate similar or better than "normal" carbon steel but no match for modern Spring steel
but you really dont want to be the poor guy that have to work with either of this without heavy machinery
I had an experience of milling titanium rod and can confirm this: it is a very difficult metal to work with. When it is being milled, it heats and gets even a little bit viscous, so mill just stops in it
I've actually been wondering this over the last few days. Huh.
GlowstickOfDestiny same here
Interesting, Titanium sounds way better, would be fascinating to see some titanium chain mail tested for strength
I have tested welded titanium chain mail next to the same build in steel. It's pretty close to the same toughness, slightly better in some ways, and half the weight.
@@DkGaston i honestly would stick with chainmail made from stainless steel due to it having at least having some level of corrosion resistance, still being durable enough for all intensive purposes, and not being as expensive to repair. Replacing titanium rings due to damage just sounds like hell💀
As much as i like how light it is, anyone's wallet is gonna be crying if rings start flying after some especially hard hits in combat
@beebo-cat Everyone has their own budget. If you cam afford it, weight matters. Or, for similar weight and more thickness of rings the Ti armor is MUCH more durable.
@@DkGaston you do have a point there, like you said if the person can afford it, it would take a lot of weight off and potentially be a put more durable depending on the construction and the grade of the titanium
"Don't forget to eat your pasta."
Unless you have gluten allergy, if you do, Italian officers in black will come to your house and force you out of Italy.
We've been busy hunting ketchup dealers lately, but we are on the case now. Your deportation flight takes off in 24 hours, and your Alfredo sauce goes with you.
Bad Cattitude You do indeed have a bad cattitude.
@@RyuFireheart Titanium pasta is gluten-free
Air armor is best
No,I just meant when the encroaching objects hit your body blowing on your body just before contact will reduce damage (confirmed by science.)
Pasta is too OP!!!
Best defense is not being there when the blow comes through, so you're not exactly wrong.
It depends on how thick it is. If you have a layer of roughly 100km like earth does it's indeed amazing how much it can stop :-D
True,
That is until the Fire armor attacks
Awesome, this was a great collab, one of the Aussie HMB guys has Ti armour, the weight saving feature is super important when you have to fight in it.
Titanium is also a far better insulator than steel.
SiriusMined I'm not sure that would nescessarliy be a good thing on a battlefield though.
Depends on the temperature
Are you fighting in Northern Scandinavian? Northern Russia? Or are you in North Africa or Egypt? Context matters.
Please do your research next time...
It's Bronze < Iron < Steel < Black < Mithril < Adamant < Rune < Dragon
(Don't forget White, Yak-Hide, Shayzien, Initiate, Proselyte, Rock shell, Granite, Obsidian, Third-age, Brandos and more)
Somebody touched my SPAGET!
James Coloma Jr. hahaha somebody watches Pewdiepie
Damn you beat me to it😂
Did you get pregananante?
*E*
@@Templarium actually this was originally from the Tim and Eric show. Espaghet!!
Metatron looks so bad ass in this garb..
I'm glad you spelled armour right.
I think it's because armor is an American version word of English.
Yeah I might just be biased but I prefer it because the word isn't pronounced, armOR it is pronounced armuhr so the U neutralises the O to make an uh sound.
Us civilized folk spell with the Queen's English. Not like the uncultured rabble from a particular seditious colony.
Well yeah, but I mean if it's a choice between spelling how it sounds, and not, I would choose the former.
Also Why are we up? @Fat Tiger
i appreciate the editing
How would titanium compare to steel for making weapons ? Would a full titanium sword be any good ?
probably not. There is a sweetspot between weapon being too heavy and cumbersome and too light to do damage. Steel happens to be in that sweetspot.
Getting titanium to hold an edge is difficult at best
titantium core with a tungsten-carbide edge would be very good, but even then we're not talking a very big improvement over steel, if made to the same weight it'd probably be a little thinner and more durable but... maybe about 10% better, and it'd probably feel wrong if you were used to steel.
spamhonx56
Actually, tungsten carbide is a poor choice for blade edges. It's much worse than high carbon steel as far as brittleness goes. It's superb for high speed machining operations, but will shatter when you strike it against something. Machinists have nightmares about dropping tungsten carbide tooling lol
True story. Then you have to explain to the boss why they have to replace a several hundred dollar tool (either U.S. or Euro, take your pick)
Squiggles McGee I saw a video of tests of a tungsten carbide knife that was never damaged in tests that damaged a steel blade (WC-(cobalt binder) cut through 6 steel rods while FeC was destroyed after two).
First off, I gotta say that I love the Dragon Age music in this video. Dragon Age: Origins remains one of my favourite RPGs of all time.
On the armour thing, in the unlikely event I'd need it for survival in a combat situation, it would depend on the actual combat situation. If everybody was coming at me with pole arms and swords, give me good quality steel. It's proven technology. But if they were using modern weapons, I'd want modern armour, made with Kevlar composite polymers, thus increasing the resistance to bullets and shrapnel. I don't think there is a circumstance where titanium would be a choice for me. Interesting idea though. I'd love to see how it resists damage.
Hey, I had a question.
Often in fantasy universes we see bows, crossbows, swords and armor used sometimes even on the same battlefield as guns and cannons, did that ever happen during the transition between swords and gun, and how would an early flintlock gun do against the armor of it's time?
Bartosz N early gun powder propelled projectile trace back to 11 or 12 centuary, so yes, and there are historical armor thats thck enough do stop them, he'll, even some modern day gun has hard time to penetrate throught them, but the force at the receiving end is similar or greater than getting hit by hammer and mace, so it doesn't help even the shot did not penetrate.
Flintlock? Probably would go through, I'm guessing, but those are fairly late period as far as black powder weapons go. Earlier weapons would have trouble, however.
What we think of as conquistador armor was designed to deflect firearms with its pronounced centerline to present a glancing surface and its increased thickness (at the cost of limb armor).
Eventually though, guns got too powerful to wear thick enough armor to realistically defend against untill modern ballistic armor.
The Burgundians iirc made quite extensive use of black powder weaponry during the 100 Years War, including siege bombards and field artillery.
Some examples of field cannons, the kind you may see during the War of the Roses:
ruclips.net/video/Rk_bNFUqzo4/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/2V_OW_Rw5Ko/видео.html
A video of a bombard in action:
ruclips.net/video/SJtzqQJyKnQ/видео.html#t=8m50s
Hand held firearms did see use, but they probably aren't how you imagine them. The typically were almost literal cannons on a stick. One man would hold it steady, and the other would prime and light it with a burning fuse:
ruclips.net/video/fV-uC7ubrIo/видео.html
Bartosz N
The Chinese had gunpowder weapons well earlier than any other civilization. They actually employed early forms of grenades, rockets, and flamethrowers (literally fire-throwing spears) alongside their repeating crossbows, giant bed-bow siege weapons, swords, spears, catapults, and armor, etc. They did not actually develop the hand-cannon as we know it from Europe, which then evolved into the matchlock and then flintlock firearms, but the European hand cannon did evolve from the "Chinese Fire-Throwing Spear".
And the Japanese Warring States Samurai, used Matchlock Rifles alongside their Yumi (bows) and Katana (swords), cavalry, and armor etc.
So yes, depending on the location and time frame, absolutely guns and gunpowder weapons were used right alongside traditional medieval weapons.
And just thinking about the utility of the "hand cannon" and then 'lock rifles of the time, you get one shot, and then you're forced to reload, including ramming the shot, which made it an even more time-consuming task than using a Crossbow. Cannoneers then would be a ranged attack force, used just like archers, well away from the main force, while the melee still performed the brunt of the battle attack.
I can't answer for penetration ability in these cases though.
Well I can't tell you as well as the commentors here, but I know for a fact that when Japanese invaded Joseon (early Korea) several hundred years ago, the Japanese troops used muzzle loading rifles as their main offensive weapon and Joseon troops used cannons and bows (the Japanese also used bows but guns were obviously more effective on land).
The music playing during the tests kinda made me think of the Witcher 3, even though it's clearly not from the game. Eerily beautiful in a way, would love to hear it used more :) And good to see some myths cleared up about titanium, I was firmly in the camp that it was supposed to be far far stronger than anything else.
The music is nice.
is that Dragon Age??!?!?!
Leliana's Song to be exact
Two of my favorite channels are cooperating!
I should mention one (that I can think of) exception to light is better, namely helmets. If you get hit by a blunt weapon on your helmet, the helmet will slam into your head. However, the heavier the helmet is compared to the blunt weapon, the more of the kinetic energy will be absorbed by the helmet instead of going into your head. So let the helmet stay as steel or make it thicker to maintain weight.
hmmm not really, historical helmets are designed so that your head floats in the helmet, so if you take a hit, that part of the helmet that is struck doesn't get pushed into your head. I'm also not sure what you mean by the lighter helmet will slam into your head? do you mean it will literally get accelerated into your head/pushed into your head, because that won't happen with any helmet that is fixed on with padding, there can't be separate movement between the helmet and the head, the blunt attack would move your helmet and head as a single body.
Then perhaps "slam into your head" isn't the right expression. However, even so, the energy transfer is still blunt weapon -> helmet -> head and you'd still want a helmet considerable heavier than the blunt weapon.
Crystalgate I get what you're saying and to an extent I agree, but the counterbalance to that argument, is that your neck muscles have to be able to absorb, slow down and ultimately (and quickly) reverse the momentum of your head and the helmet, which would be more difficult with a heavier helmet - otherwise, you could face the irony of having a glancing blow that at most might have bruised you, end up making full contact with the thicker helmet and either damaging your neck (whiplash) or at the very least glancing enough to knock you off balance during a dodge, making you end up on the floor - the added weight at your head (the point furthest away from the fulcrum - your feet) makes imbalance more problematic to overcome. The other problem with the increased mass is that it means you have to apply more force in order to stop and start any dodging movements with your head, which could mean slower movements allow hits that otherwise would've been dodged, or a faster rate of exhaustion during your fight, both of which could get you killed. On top of this, the comparative slowness of the hit to the heavier helmet means that more force can be applied during the impact of the blow before contact breaks.
This is not an issue when hit by an enemy. The momentum from the weapon is transferred to your helmet and head and that momentum does not get higher just because you wear a heavier helmet. If you wear a heavier helmet, any given blow will move your head slower than if you used a lighter one, resulting in the same momentum for you to stop and reverse.
This is however an issue when you are moving on your own. That said, I was proposing maintaining the weight of a steel helmet, not increasing it further.
I get what your saying, but simply having a heavier helmet will not actually minimize the force of a blow, what will happen is it will be harder for the blunt weapon to knock your head back because it has to accelerate more mass. But the shock wave that goes into your head will be the same, what actually minimizes force is time, momentum in terms of impulse, which is the product of the force acting on a body and the time interval during which the force is exerted. To have the same amount of impulse you can have a large force acting over a short time, or you can have the same impulse with a small force over a large time. That is how shock absorbents like padding work, as they compress the time is increased and the force minimized. I know its a bit counter intuitive, physics can be like that sometimes.
Between you playing the theme song and my girlfriend replaying the entire series lately, now I need to go play Dragon Age again.
Ahahah lol. "Don;t forget to eat your pasta." I was like.. "wait what!?" it was kind of random but hilarious. I laughed more than I should on that joke.
And yes, titanium armor.
I would like to add one extra advantage to Titanium.
Hardness is important against indentation and cutting but is not the only factor to put into protection equation.
Titanium tensile strength and elasticity are also quite important, they allow for a more effective energy absorption than steel. Titanium breastplate of the same thickness of the steel one will be better at stopping/slowing down a penetrating projectile, and also at absorbing and dissipating blunt force from a mace or sword. To put it simple… a titanium armor is easier to damage than a very strong/hard steel but it’s more effective in protecting the knight.
Very nice video. In particular the presentation of the metals comparison and titanium introduction.
It contain quite a lot of information, remaining accessible and clear. Not easy task.
As one other commenter said, I'd like mine thicker and titanium.
Me personally if I could do this sort of stuf I would want 2 suits of armor. One that is purposefully made nearly 3 times as heavy as was historically accurate, this one for training in. That way I can build up my strength and stamina to an utterly OP level. The second only half as heavy as was historically accurate but also a little stronger. This one for being in the actual battle.
Leliana's song.
I'd just like to point out that at least half of why armour works is not down to the material it is made of, but how it is constructed, how the surfaces are shaped, how it disperses blows, and how it articulates.
A poorly articulating piece of armour will wear you out much faster than a well fitted price, simply due to your body being strained in odd ways to move. Likewise, even a heavy suit of armour can feel rather light if it is suspended on the wearer properly, or a light suit can feel heavy if suspended incorrectly.
Weight is actually desirable in a protective sense for stopping blunt trauma to your person, such as maces, and pole weapons. A full plated kit in titanium would need to be superbly padded to make up for the mass lost that would absorb most of a blow.
The lines and surface finish of the armour itself is another very important aspect of armour that is frequently overlooked. Many "fabulous" sets of parade armour are practical for use on the field, but would be easier to injure the person inside than much plainer, but better made armour. Armour needs to be built in a way such that blows tend to skate off the wearer, or the blows are absorbed and distributed across a large section of the wearer to reduce the force dealt in a specific region. The sharp rises on the elbows and knees, tassets that hang slightly off the waist of the wearer, perfectly shaped cuirasses and vambrae, all help deflect or spread blows across the wearer.
As a reenactor myself, I see a lot of people using many different metal alloys to protect their persons, and have always noted two things. Firstly, they have never trusted anything other than steel to protect their heads, as it has weight and will crumple (which absorbs much of the energy a blow delivers) which massively contributes to stopping concussions from happening. Secondly, lightweight alloys are rarely used to protect highly struck areas with high risk (such as the head, neck, kidneys, and elbows) because steel, although weightier, offers more assurance that it won't fail, often you will see people with titanium leg harnesses, or arm harnesses which have significantly thicker cops than the articulating lames
If take steel any day of the week over titanium. Additionally, if it breaks or deforms, I can always take it to the blacksmith and he can weld another plate into it or just hammer it back into shape.
the way i see it, if it is comparable but lighter could you not just make it thicker? making the weight closer to the same would make the titanium far more resistant would it not?
With Medieval plate armor, that extra toughness wouldn't be all that helpful, given how protective steel plate armor already is. It would be much more helpful to go with lower weight.
until someone comes at you with the spike end of a warhammer or other such weapons, then that extra thickness could be the differance between life and death
That's a good idea...
At the same time, I would probably go for a titanium armor made stronger through shape rather than thickness as the decreased weight would allow me to outlast a steel armored opponent and keep my mind and body focused for longer time before getting winded and sluggish.
There comes a point where making something thicker doesn't help but hinder you.
When steel cools, it forms tiny crystal structures that may slip or break, putting in a decent amount of carbon would help break up the ferrite (iron crystals) that form during cooling and hardening, making it harder to break and more suitable for knives, swords, hammers, guns, cars, armor, tanks, you name it, it’s useful. I’d recommend anything with 3% carbon content to 5% carbon content for knives, make sure that they have been heat treated to merge the crystals that form making it more able to deform, (in case it had to) and not suddenly break open when under hard use. If your going up against edged weapons, having armor that has not been heat treated may or may not have an affect on you depending on the type of armor it got made into. I would use this on a thick breastplate, not maille though.
Just so you know, it depends on how much carbon was added to the steel to break up the ferrite, with enough carbon, no ferrite will form and even if it did, it would have no place to slip and cause breakage because it is simply surrounded by carbon alloy crystals. These could be a range of different types of crystals.
Did you STEEL that armor
Im sorry
Dark Side No he got it in the MAIL ;)
Steel is a verb. So if he'd smithed the breast plate he would have steeled it...
you should be :P
OH THE IRON Y ARMOUR.
Bad Cattitude steeling yourself means harden yourself... Not arm yourself
For the Apocalypse, I'd go with titanium armor, since it's a long way back to the repair shop. Plus, if we have to worry about bullets, titanium can be made thicker to stop pistol rounds.
Alternatively, titanium chain mail and steel plate may be a good combo. The mail is light and flexible, while the steel can be a hard shell. Titanium mail would also fit better under modern kevlar body armor, although titanium plate inserts would be better than steel...
In short, I'd treat titanium like it's mithril. ^_^
You could mix both (W2 would be highly recommended, or a steel with 0.2% chromium/vanadium would be good)
But what about equal weight Titanium, and how much better would it fair against blunt and piercing attacks, including modern weapons?
as knight errant wrote, without equaling the weight it already protects you from most piercing and blunt attacks, the weight is more likely to be less advantages to the extra stamina. But against fire arms or heavy poundage missile weapons, such as muskets and arcquibus (can't spell it, looks like a rife), and large pistols, crossbows, longbows. which were used against armour extensively, doubling the thickness of the chest armor might be advantageous. That said I'm not sure but muskets are incredibly powerful and would probably still pierce through. Also equaling the weight might make sense for heavy cavalry, they are more at risk to armour piercing weapons during a charge, and having more weight might make a charge more damaging, then again a cavalry could also rather have more speed, and stamina for the same defense.
would love to see it tested
there is no such thing as bullet proof- some caliber bullets can be stopped by Kevlar, some by ceramic plates but there is a limit to what you can defend against. Even Tank frontal armor can be penetrated by a fast and heavy enough bullet
MR.Chickennuget 360
When you get into field gun calibres, those aren't usually called bullets though. Nobody in their right mind is going to expect a "bulletproof" vest to withstand a round from a field gun.
@wjs start with a .50bmg ap round thats a bullet and you wont find a vest to stop that
I've always wondered how the early middle ages would have been changed if someone could go back in time with Aluminium, Titanium and Stainless steal.
Great idea for a book.
First Like :D. Also. Weren’t you gonna hit it to test it’s durability? Is that a thing we are gonna see?
I'm a year late, but only just found your channel a few weeks ago and have been hooked! This is actually my first time commenting on one of your videos, but I just wanted to weigh in a little bit and mention that one of the benefits with titanium is that it's low density means you can make much thicker armors. Were medieval armors to be made out of titanium alloy, it's possible they could have been made thick enough to deflect even early arquebuses, to say nothing of how heavily you could armor the horses! We might have even seen a return to cataphract-style heavy cavalry in response to early gunpowder if titanium armor was available! It would certainly be interesting. Anyway, thanks for the video, and I'll keep catching up in the meanwhile :)
Would titanium armour be preferable to steel on a medieval battlefield
And would the same apply to swords and axes?
Short answer:
Armor? Yes.
Weapons? No, you want the mass to help you do damage.
Thank you
with the weight difference you could add more padding under the titanium to reduce bunt damage and still be lighter.
Thanks for making the video. Cool insight on which armor that could potentially be more beneficial. Also like your choice of music in the background. Who is the singer?
But what if you made the titanium armour thicker so it's the same weight as the steel plate? Wouldn't that mean better protection?
Or more interestingly; could something in between give you armour that's both lighter AND better protection than steel?
Well, you could always split the difference and get a stronger armor at 75% of the weight.
You could but it defeats the purpose when the armor is just as heavy and 2x as bulky as the steel plate.
Rogue Gen the thickness of the plates is so thin that doubling it is inconsequential. Most of the bulkiness of armor comes from the gambison (and possibly mail) under it.
Even for the fine articulations of gauntlets, increasing the thickness isn't a problem and reenactors do it all the time to make safer steel sparing gauntlets.
The absolute thickest part of thicker plates generally tops out at about 14 guage (0.0747in / 1.90mm) but that would only be for specific points on the helm and breastplate with much or the armor significantly thinner.
also if you get the armor too thick the thickness of the armor can be the encumbrance rather than the weight.
Didn't DynamicWorlds already address that?
Finally a good one changing armor material is always an intriguing convo
So the more carbon we add to iron the harder it becomes eh. Well then, why don't we just use 100% carbon armor!
Dylan Butler because it would shatter like glass lol
Dylan Butler
That's called "Diamond" armour.
:-)
Or a pencil armour :-D
padded Armour made from carbon 120 or 180 nano tube thread. light flecksable resistant to rads heat damage. sounds good..... and expensive lol
Hi Metatron, I would like to offer a little anecdotal evidence if I may,
I am a fencer, now they offer steel sabres, as well as titanium sabres. I happen to own a sabre with a titanium blade and guard for competition usage.
The blade is made from a sintered alloy and the guard from a punched out piece of titanium alloy plate.
The blade ended up being too brittle and the tip broke off from the impact of a steel blade.
Whilst this does not relate to armour, the guard is made from titanium plate.
This guard however is showing significatntly more damage than steel guards that are much older because it does not have as much hardness. In fact when performing an opposition to an incoming sabre I often take large chips out of the titanium guard.
I think if you were to put the two breastplates side by side and perform similar damage tests you would see the steel armour perform better due to its density. I think it is just the characteristics of titanium and is not suitable as armour because a steel weapon would be able to damage it significantly more.
It is also prone to having tears open up which is not desirable.
Great channel and content and I think this is a very interesting topic.
Cheers
Scientist Metatron back at it again!
The pride you take in your work shows in droves in your videos. Cheers from the U.S. Metatron!
Titanium is effectively bullet proof, I've seen a 2-3 inch block take up to a 50 cal, and it held up real well, I think the 50 call was the only round that went all the way through.
Rick Harris yeah, but most of the rounds barely left a dent.
Dakota Joyner 3 inches of high carbon steel is also bulletproof. 3 inch thick metal plates strapped to you will be very heavy even if titanium is pretty light
Connor schnurr Idk what video op watched, but a 1 inch thick piece of titanium is more than enough to stop most bullets
Eddy It is. so is one inch of high carbon steel. Realistically though even titanium armor should not exeed 3 millimeters in thickness if it is to be used as full body coverage. If it's just a chestplate then maybe half to 3 quarters of an inch is reasonable
By the way, on your sword wielding section, I liked the snappy cuts and quick action, but for a better point forward stance, I strongly recommend Fiore's Window Guard, because I saw a bit of a movie stance.
Anyway, fascinating videos as always and lots of new information about titanium armour.
I'd consider toughness to be more important than hardness. Both materials are, generally, plenty hard enough to withstand a blow from a weapon. The thing is, however, how many blows can each take before failing. Steel can regularly beat titanium in that.
This is why modern firearms barrels are usually made from Chromium Molybdenum steels (sometimes with added vanadium), though some are made from four series (usually 416) corrosion resistant steels.
Took me a fair scroll down to find the first comment mentioning steel toughness as the reason it makes good armour. The same reason linen makes good armour, toughness.
hmmm that isn't really steel in the sense anymore, We aren't even talking about pure titanium either, we are talking about a titanium steel alloy that is mostly steel, so you've just mentioned a superior steel alloy that contains two to maybe 3 if we count the vanadium metal components. So steel doesn't beat titanium, steel with other components beats steel titanium alloy is what your saying. (I know it sounds like I'm being a nit picker but I thought I'd mention it so people don't get misconceptions)
But your spot on, toughness is more important than strength in armour development.
As a spiritsmith I can tell you that you can also harden people through hate treatment. It turns them into unbreakable weapons of darkness.
(It doesn't work on blessed souls, though.)
So we most certainly would not want a cutting sword made out of titanium, cool.
DA: Origins, the first and last great Dragon Age game ever made. It not only had the best heroes, villains, and story, but it also had one of the best sound tracks of any game ever made. Makes me sad to see how far Bioware has fallen.
I seem to remember a story about those dinner theater medieval fight performers using titanium armor for a while and found that they were getting hurt through the armor more than with steel since the titanium would Flex to a greater degree this could have been just badly-designed armor however it is an interesting anecdote
Could be many things, likely both poor quality titanium and poorly made armour.
They're basically cabaret entertainers. They don't have the budget to get the best, and titanium is pretty expensive, even today. So they would have had poor quality metal, and while this is an assumption, I'm presuming they didn't have the budget to pay a top-class armour smith, its even possible the suits weren't made by an amour smith but a blacksmith.
Put all those things together, and its a recipe for terrible amour.
you sure they had titanium? stuff is expensive for a theater group, usually they use aluminium alloy which is even lighter but much weaker and more flexible, so I suspect they were talking about the latter.
I'd choose titanium, mainly for maintenance reasons. Corrosion resistance is a big deal for long term use. Also, the light weight is a very nice addition.
how about depleted uranium armor?
bradOLF pittLER that’s fine, if you happen to be a tank.
Tungsten, iridium and ruthenium are better.
Too heavy for practical use.
damn that would be heavy af
This was actually quite helpful as it provides information I needed for my fantasy writing. Very professionally done, and was an unbiased intelligent report. Thank you.
steels better
Derek S titanium is the strongest metal know to man, or anything known to man.
FMS DramaAlert titanium sucks for swords and knifes
Titanium is stronger than steel when it comes to weight to strength ratio but pretty much every steel alloy is significantly stronger when it comes to volume to weight. This wouldn't be all that big a deal for plate armor, as armor is pretty thin as it is and that's mainly because of the weight rather than the volume, so increasing the thickness shouldn't be an issue. However Titanium alloys also don't have as much of a spring effect as heat treated steel and tend to stay in place, so weapons wouldn't bounce of it as much and it would dent easier.
However at the same weight titanium would still be stronger than steel armor so it's probably not a bad choice.
The same cannot be said about weapons. Also titanium makes for terrible edges, because of the respective carbide structure even a lower carbon steel like 1045 will hold an edge better than a really expensive titanium alloy. Not to mention that you usually need a certain amount of flexibility in weapons especially swords. With titanium you'd run into the same bending issues you do with iron and bronze swords. Only that titanium actually won't be able to take as much of that cold bending before it becomes to structurally weak to function. So it would be terrible for weapons. But I'd definitely take a properly made titanium armor.
As a mechanical engineer I can only approve this. Knyght Errant really did his homework.
Just an added thought. If you have a lighter material that offers the same strength, you also have the option to use more of it, resulting in thicker armor, that offers more protection and that then weighs the same as the regular one.
Knyght Errant is one of the most knowledgeable persons I know in terms of armour.
On the thicker armour note, I don't think that would be worth it. Medieval Armour thickness was already more than adequate protection against the weapons of that era, you don't actually need the armour to be stronger, on the other hand, lighter armour with the same protection of steel would be a much better choice in my opinion.
I agree it always depends on what you want to choose.
However, even though you might be right about the protection against most weapons of that era, there is a reason why armor types existed that were even heavier than the regular armor. I am looking into the direction of Jousting. But it always comes down to choice.
You said you don't think it would be worth it and I fully understand where that comes from. But I am sure there would be others who would choose otherwise ^^
If I had a full on choice and budget was completely out of the question. I'd go with an underlay of medium thickness quilt while the armor itself was Titanium Scale armor, but masked by the overlay of a simple cloth so such things as a family or royal crest could be printed on the front showing loyalty or personal family, a known prideful intent of many. The flexibility stand alone of Scale, now stacked with the much lighter weight titanium to me would be honestly optimal armoring as it would grant a much higher endurance while holding true to nearly all types of standard metal type armors of such ages. This combination would stand much more high paced movements and dodges and could opt into much heavier weapon types without as much strain if otherwise using heavier full plates, specially if cast Iron or steel types. This is just a personal opinion as I tend to favor speed in combat than steel walling tanks or over the top offense that takes forever to reload.
A few points:
1. You miss the very important question: What is "steel"?
"Steel" is the name of a family of alloys with widely spread properties within that family.
The entire premise for evaluation becomes irrelevant unless the exact materials used is defined.
2. Looking at race bicycles where the frames must be rigid and light weight the development in materials has gone from steel to aluminium to titanium to carbon fibre and now they're back to steel.
The new steel is nowhere near the type previously used but a new alloy from Sandviken with very high rigidity. The new frames are made much thinner than the old ones which makes the frame lighter for a given stiffness.
3. With point 1. and 2. in mind the only reasonable conclusion is that:
a) For a given physical shape (thickness) steel will be heavier while the exact alloys used define which is stronger. (Advantage steel.)
b) For a given weight it's also the alloys (and treatment) that define which option is better. (Advantage titanium.)
I really like your approach to this hypothetical question. Always using the condition that it depends heavily on actual circumstances. To further go in to the realm of "Fiction" one could even introduce modern coating methods on either Plate. Of course one could also substitute historical padding with modern ballistic armor fabric for those who don't trust Plate armor to protect them against Arrows. Thank you very much for the effort an historical accuracy you put in all of your vids.
Titanium armor could be even thicker than steel, and would be better for someone like an adventurer.
Now this got me thinking. When gunpowder weapons were introduced, armor had to get stronger to be bullet proof. But a successful armor against guns was so heavy that it was impractical, and so abandoned.
My question would be: If we had the tech to make titanium armor at the same time gunpowder was introduced (scenario), would it be possible to make a bullet proof titanium armor that is light enough to be usable?
Great collaboration imo. Shared on FB ;)
First thing that comes to mind: the common benefits of titanium alloy is the fact that it is comparable to good steel, but almost at half the weight. Now compare titanium breastplate of the same weight as a steel breastplate and you'll only end up with a lighter breastplate of similar performance. BUT! What if you made a titanium breastplate of the same weight as the steel breastplate?
This would make the titanium breastplate thicker. More material = better absorption of impact = better protection.
Nice to see Hobbits grow so tall.
Extremely interesting! I was almost thinking titanium would be bullet proof. I guess one would need some kind of ceramic composite as well. but with the heavier weight would be better for a striking weapon? Very insightful Metatron, keep up the fantastic work, love your content!
I would have said titanium is better but never would I have guessed it was this complicated and close, according to you of course. Really interesting topic indeed and very good video as always.
Oh, shoot. I forgot to eat my pasta. Thanks for reminding me Metatron!
Titanium not only because it reduced fatigue, but it also has to give the edge in the movement department. This allows for an easier and more refined corrections based on enemy movement.
Issue with titanium is it becomes brittle after repeated impacts, (which may indicate its a work hardenable material) meaning if you hit it enough times you will eventually brake it.
Thanks to the Knight Errant for debunking the myth about Titanium. As an avid and old bicycle rider I experimented myself that Titanium is not unbreakable. Infact I had two Titanium frames broken, and they was not made by commercial Titanium but by 3al-2.5v tubes tubes and built by two different and world famous framebuilders.
While for the same thickness the two would be about the same, the fact is titanium's lighter weight means it could be made thicker meaning for two suits of armour at the same weight titanium would be stronger.
There's also another option by mixing it up with thinner lighter plates on the limbs that are matched with steel for the limbs with a thicker helm and breast plate for added protection with the same weight as a steel one
Mentioning the alloy is key. There is a newer steel from a few years ago that easily matches the strength-to-weight of the best titanium alloys. It's an extreme case maybe but if we are talking hypothetical to where they could magically craft titanium armor then I'd say it's fair to bring this steel up too.
I'd say the main benefits of Titanium armour would be better protection against corrosion and the low weight to durability ratio, with the more significant trade offs being the high price and the difficulty in shaping Titanium into an armour, especially during the medieval period. The loss of about 1/3 weight units compared to an equal volume of steel certainly isnt to be underestimated, but if regular steel armour was hard to get, Titanium armour would likely be even more expensive.
A full Titanium sword would likely not work, since titanium wouldnt make for a good edge methinks, but it could be a good material for the inner bit of a double edged sword or the back of a single edged sword.
Titanium is used to protect the pilot of ground attack planes. The best known being the titanium "bathtub" in America's A10 Thunderbolt, AKA the warthog. Being very durable and very light weight made it perfect for an attack aircraft where the weight would make such steel armour undesirable. The pilots had a lot of trust in that titanium bath tub.
The weight factor is very, very significant for fighting purposes. Fatigue is a killer, pure and simple.
Watch martial arts competitions such as MMA and boxing. Stamina is often the winning difference between two equally skilled opponents. I watched some armoured bouts in Europe, promoted by a European MMA organization. It is readily apparent that stamina or the lack of it is a huge factor in armoured combat. Forced to make a choice, the big weight difference is more important to the slight difference in hardness. Titanium is the best choice.
Ten minutes of serious fighting is an eternity, especially if you are not in tip top shape. It is hard to be a mighty warrior when your thighs burn with every step, you are blinded by sweat and your helmet, and you can barely lift your arms. In an all day battle, that weight difference will be significant.
For palace appearances, the beautiful steel is a must. 😂😂
Half weight at similar average hardness?
That's a no-brainer for full armor suit with chain armor added, in combat/potential danger conditions. Absolute no-brainer.
lol I love your use of the Deus Ex soundtrack in this video. I hear that song in different things every now and then. Keep up the good work!
Something that dawned on me while watching this, is how would Titanium compare to Steel in the use of a Axe? I live in the country so i use my Axe's alot, i have various types of Axe's of different size's. What i believe as an experienced traditional lumberjack (mostly as a hobby) the Titanium Axe would be better for felling tree's cause the weight of the Axe has little to do with the wood you are removing from the tree. Now when it comes to splitting wood, the weight matters alot, if Titanium is half the weight of steel then it would need to be double the thickness or double the power required for splitting wood. On the downward strike weight is important, on the horizontal swing the lighter Axe with the same cutting edge would keep you from getting fatigue quicker.
Now i know Metatron doesn't do videos on wood cutting so i'll get to the real question. Would a Titanium Mace/Hammer be less effect than a Steel one when dealing with plate armor?
Since we are talking about a limited budget, maybe steel on the core and titanium on the extremities. I would assume the weight differences would be felt more on the arms and legs.
There is potentially more protection by using more material while still keeping the weight down by going with titanium.
1. I did not know that I had been "unsubscribed" to Knight Errant until this video. (I just assumed he stopped making videos)
2. Breastplate movement won't mean much. If it's built to your body it will move well.....so far as a breast plate is compared.
3. I've only worked with chainmaille purchased from someone else.(I purchased the rings/wire I've never created the wire, I have woven all the mail) All the titanium was pretty cool but if your worked with it more then once you fucked with it's integrity. It snaps with a few bends pretty quickly. Stainless steel far out performs it on this. Though honestly, I've only worked with butted chainmail. (yep.....I'm one of "those" guys)
4. Weight has it's advantages and they should never be looked over. I actually think this is more substantial in chain than it is in plate.
5. Love the video, I love both of you and your pursuits.
6. The great ax is my favorite weapon that has ever existed.
7. I can imagine some plate armor pieces would be better with titanium, some better with steel. I can also imagine it could be different depending on the person and style they abuse/use.
Send the two to Skallagrim for him to test them again his heavy crossbow!
Joke aside, another thing to consider is that since titanium is lighter, you can make the most important parts of the armor (breastplate and helmet) thicker so that it can resist better anti-armor weapon, like war-hammer, or cavalry charges.
Having these up to 20% thicker than the steel equivalent should make it a lot harder to damage and still a lot lighter.
Great video! Will you be doing some actual abusive tests on that titanium breastplate vs a steel one? Using a variety of different weapons to see which ones are capable of withstanding more damage?
I wish somebody made this video