Love you thoughts here. Players def seem to be just playing the game for the reward at the end. They don't care about the journey, just the ending. We gotta keep letting players know that it's ok to enjoy the journey. It's ok to not be min-maxing every part of their gameplay. Great video Waves :)
exactly. obv you'll have some brainwashed sweatlords that will argue "i enjoy winning and doing good, not the journey" and there's nothing we can do but be disgusted at that mentality
I've been playing WoW at a CE level for 6 years now (now at WR400), spending lots of time following experts and discussions on class discords/online etc, and the most surprising thing I've learned is that even experienced players have literally no idea what they're talking about when it comes to non-meta specs. Or even off-meta talent builds sometimes. I played an off-meta build for Aberrus this tier and because I loved it so much and practiced it all the time, I performed really well. It is the most satisfying feeling of my CE experience in the last 6 years.
Finally someone that emphasize this “problem” or what is hurting the m+ community. I agree with your thoughts! i am around 3750io this season and I am just lucky that my hpal is considered meta spec this season. I think blizzard should somehow change the way the m+ title works or do something that makes people want to play what they love, and not pick what is most OP to get title. I totally agree with you it is indeed the most fun to achieve the desired goal on the spec or class you love the most!
I personally really agree to the comment you made : The player just want the reward and don't care about the journey to get there !!! The journey is 'actually' the reason to play this game. I think your spot on on the community vision. Great video and great way to explain it.
Limit Maximum has addressed this in his most recent patch / tier list update video as well. He said when he makes his raid tier lists he feels like people take them the wrong way, and he just tries to show people what is good and bad at the highest level of play where every point of dmg matters. He said that in your average guild raid you shouldn't even need a tier list and that any raid leads that look at his tierlists should not use that to judge if someone can or cannot come to a raid. I used to have a guildee that was alright at the game, and he played marksmanship hunter in recent patches, he topped the charts every pull. However, on Maximum's recent tierlist marksmanship hunter is in desperate need of attention apparently, but my friend played it perfectly fine and made it look broken compared to the rest of us. That just goes to show you, it really does not matter at all unless you are literally competing to kill the final boss for worlds first and the winner can be determined by like 5 health.
As someone who has played enhance since the start of shadowlands, I experienced a lot prejudice during that expansion, 'Oh you're not playing ele? are you trolling?' from the many people who said something similar to me, i can remember just a couple that actually apologized at the end of the key, specially when I topped the god damn dps chart. I remember, lots of keys where we had to carry a deadweight metaslave that was a warlock, or a druid, or whatever, because they were using a spec that required the tank to pull a certain way, and it was not happening in a pug. The meta mindset is toxic, and IO is king, that's all. (Unless you want to avoid 5 melees too, since it makes some dungeons a nightmare) Besides, thinking of parses, most players will not have a purple parse anyway (Above 50%), so the difference of 5% of the meta potential damage is actually irrelevant to them. Because that's how statistics work.
Biggest gripe I have with the meta is how ingrained it is in my own brain. I understand it's flaw but chose to ignore it. Like, do I invite the BM hunter thats 446 ilevel or the demonhunter thats 444? Usually the demonhunter because I understand the strength of the "better" spec, right? I for one have always hated the word meta, and how people tend to corrolate the word meta with the word the best, or the strongest, or the most optimal. That's couldn't be more wrong however. Meta is a constructed philosophy and mutual acceptance of something, have it be the most optimal comp to push the highest level key possible, a healer comp for a raid tier/boss, or simply, how and why we evaluate a specs power in World of Warcraft. The crazy thing is, the meta comps are often constructed by the meta way of making evaluation and analysis. Crazy that isn't it? I'm for sure not saying that the "god comp" wasn't insanely broken or the most optimal strategy, it probably was, HOWEVER, once the meta is accepted and nobody is trying to counter-act or find ways to attack the meta, the game suddenly is doomed. It's not a crazy coincidence why specs like Windwalker, Elemental, Shadow (to an extent) are very unpopular specs to play, because they are more often than not, not considered meta. Does that make these specs crazy unplayable and bad? Quite the opposite actually, they're actually very, very strong specs, but they're not at the very top of the foodchain.
As much as I agree, unfortunately people are the way they are. There will always be a sizable group, that believes, playing the meta is what magically makes them “win” the game. Not having a clue about boss mechanics, not kicking any casts, etc is all fine for as long as they play the “right” spec.
I totally agree! Something i thought about in addition is how some affixes tip the scales a little bit as well. If lets say a healer is mid, not the best not the worst, but it can deal with a bunch of the affixes really well people are going to want to invite those classes. And this is fine i think, as long as blizzard make it so the affixes are "countered" in different ways by different specs. Or better yet, make no class be able to "counter" affixes at all. Like priests on bursting weeks is just so much quality of life, and it negates the affix completely at the cost of one mass dispel if played around correctly. Its obviously just a small tangent, but some seasons it feels like it does tip the scales a bit when a spec is good at handling 3-4 affixes + they are balanced well versus a spec that can only help out with one affix + worse balancing that season.
TLDR: "Play the game for fun" "I think optimizing is fun" "..." Any game with a significant challenge or performance index (M+ key rating, ladders, competition) funnels players toward optimization. This is built into the major systems (endgame PvE/PvP) since difficulty scaling presents new challenges, which must be managed by optimizing player performance. The truth is, most people really LIKE this, and want to play the game this way. And we can't really argue against them. Think about when you try to solve a difficulty in a raid encounter. Two adds on a boss that both need a kick rotation? We assign it. But how? We optimize it so that it has the least overall impact on the raid team, so that others can focus on different duties or throughput. This happens over and over in content, whether it is optimizing CD use, or raid positioning or boss positioning or CC/Utility use. And solving these puzzles - i.e. leaning into optimization - is one of the stronger payoffs for participating in the game. Each team has a certain amount of bandwidth to deal with raiders/group members who are unable (due to a limitation of class, spec, or their own skill as a player) to optimize in a given situation, but eventually the bandwidth runs out. Think of Priests needing to be moved on Raszageth. There is a point at which some classes are unable to optimize and become a strain on the group. Now sometimes the strain is worth it due to other things they bring to a key or raid fight or PvP match, but you see my point: the meta is a natural development of a desire for optimization, which is the fundamental fuel for participation. It is all well and good to say that this impulse is deceptive and that nearly all specs do not NEED to optimize so heavily to accomplish their goals as a Mythic Raider, Rank 1 PvPer, or 3kio 25 key pusher. But the optimization impulse comes in at the start of all of these calculations because it is built in to the structure of the game itself. Playing with friends and family can suspend or replace this impulse to some degree, but eventually you run into a wall even here (i.e. where the desire to optimize and push higher content outweighs the interest in playing with a particular person). Of course, this is amplified by discord culture, where many people pool resources to "solve" the puzzle of optimization (or at least one facet of it), and broadcast it often before the patch or xpac has even launched. This is the double-edged sword of Blizzard leveraging community involvement in testing and PTRs, and it is likely a Pandora's Box that can never be shut. It also extends to the vast array of tools, which Blizz is constantly trying to knock down, in the form of in-game helps, WAs, overlays, and giant scripts that simplify tasks for all players. In short, the pressure to optimize, and the tools to do so, are so strong and numerous, that the whole culture of the game is firmly committed to it. I say this as a person who spends a lot of time testing out oddball stuff, and debating math, sims, and details in all of these circles. There is a totalizing perspective in these spaces that doesn't account for some potentially innovative ideas. But the point remains that practically speaking, the average player who wants to step up into more difficult content is driven almost entirely by optimization or else they are left to play on their own. They are driven both by their own desire to optimize, but also by this ocean of culture built up around that goal. And for lots of people, it is genuinely the fun part of the game for them, despite how toxic it may make them toward others.
It was fun to play Enhancement during SL. couldn't get in any group/raid. the only time I was accepted it was only to buff the "meta" group but I never changed classes because I love playing Enhancement.
Hi! I don't normally comment on RUclips videos, but... I been watching you since BFA, when I was playing enha for fun (Took a break from my main, boomie at that time). What you said in this video is the truth and I can so relate to everything that you've just said. The whole twitch and RUclips META mindset ruined the game. I am glad I see people like you or Dorki trying to make everyone understand that m+ is playable on EVERY SINGLE SPEC nowadays. I so liked this video and I am sad I have no place to share it for more ppl that play wow to see it (Like social media). Back in S3 of SL I pushed rank 3 disc priest on Tarren Mill and 80 world with the most unwanted and unplayed healer: Disc Priest.. I need to add the fact that it was the Holy Priest season. It was hard yes, but it was really rewarding. Thank you for your video and I really hope people will understand your point.
The worst part about the whole Meta isn't just the mentality of "Ohh i need to play Class/Spec X to reach rank 1", it's also just how this trickels down, people sit in Que's for like 10's and are not getting invited because they play non-meta specs even in difficulties where it doesn't matter at all. Like it happend to my Friend, he reached like 2.5K Rio prior to Aug release, took a break for a few weeks came back and tried Hunter, noone invited him. It's also why i personally just burn out a lot quicker and even if you reroll, all it takes one single Spec to be added to just destroy it entirely, like Aug for example, prior to the Aug release i atleast saw some differences in Classes, like Enh, Moonkin, WW and Rogues for example, but then Aug got released and ever since it's been the same Aug, S-Priest, F-Mage comp for like 3-4 Months straight. But we also have to say, that this isn't just a Playerbase issue, it's a balancing issue, if certain Healers for example, can just ignore mechanics thanks to Immunitys while others don't have jack shit, besides a glory fied Ignore pain, yeah i'm talking about MW Cocoon. Then it's obvious that noone in there right mind would EVER play the inferior class/spec if it means, you need to put in double the effort, just to not have people die to said mechanis.
TLDR every class should do the same numbers wise relying on rotation spec and mechanic knowledge. For a while retails has been homogenized every class has a wall, heal, kick, stop, cc etc. The idea that some class outperform others is archaic, every class should have the potential to do the same numbers.
Realistically any tier list should just be good/better/best with a deep understanding that if you love to play a particular class/spec you should just play that spec, I mean granted that shouldn't have to be said really, but ppl are easily influenced to play a said class simply due to it being better than the one they are playing
Unfortunately there is a simple reason i won't just play what i like to play: getting invited. You could argue "but if everyone thinks that way, no one will start changing" .. I'm simply not build to fight against the bias of other players. i rather don't play the spec that i love than not to play at all. if you have the opportunity to play with the same ppl every time then hell yes - go for what you love. u will make up for it as a grp. I agree with the bottomline though: "off meta" doesnt equal "unplayable" and that is the huge problem in the mindset of the people for sure.
idk i just be playing survival. but seriously very good video i feel like those tierlists are more or less utility tierlists that's why from season to season the same classes stay at roughly the same spots. you can do damage with every class nowadays it's not the classic days or something similar where there are actually unplayable specs the last time we had that was survival in shadowlands season 1 where it got outperformed by >20% damage wise even if you were to play perfectly. i just hope this video reaches some people and maybe even changes community perception of "bad specs". :p also everytime someone says "I'm stuck in aug prison" i want to kill myself! have a nice rest of your day see ya!
I totally agree with you but after an hard week of work I just want to PLAY and dont want get declined over and over again until I go to sleep. But if I see a "S tier class" with 3k and 20 played keys for example and a "C tier class" I go with the C tier class if I dont need a spezific spell like BL, CR oder dispell or something form that class. But most of the time the "C tier class" player will be better. The S tier class player will play the rotation from wowhead and do his dmg until they have to switch a lil bit. The only role I keep an eye on the tier lists are healers. Sorry to say but in some weeks some heal specs just garbage... Dont want to say that they are not viable but if the S tier class can remove it with w/e and the F tier healer has to sweat to get this done I always will pick the S tier healer. Bursting for example. Why should I pick a druid over a priest this week? Both can do it but with the priest it is so much easier. In that case it is not the players fault imo.
Will simply never change. Most people aren’t playing for raw fun. On top of that MMO players are just analytical. They always have been Messed around on an LoTRo private server recently and people are putting together spreadsheets and doing 3 days worth of math calculations just to figure out the meta rotations for a 12 year old game that’s hardest content is equivalent to molten core. The Information Age is here. Why suck when it’s a google search away The modern solution is, hopefully, season of discovery. No beta no PTR. At least then we get 2 weeks or so of non meta play
I gotta say, augmentation might actually be the exception. Still people don't need to try and tell me they need an augmentation to do a +15 (which some people do).
I agree, Waves. I stopped playing wow a while back, but when I played I didn't care about meta, all I cared about was what I found fun and overcoming challenges in the game with nice, likeminded people. My experiences showed me that the power of a spec plays into (to a degree) how much fun it is to play, but you don't need a broken spec for it to be fun. On the opposite side of that, a fun spec that is undertuned/over nerfed will lose its appeal if left like that for ages. The balancing act is up to blizzard to get right. The community was (the last few years I played) hell bent on tier lists and meta comps etc and that took all the fun out of raiding and dungeons for me. Unfortunately I doubt that will change. For some reason some specs get left behind every expansion, and should they against all odds happen to be good for once then you have so much complaining that they nerf them into oblivion and forget about them for another 5 expansions. Are those specs playable? yes...is it fun to play them in that state? Not really, no. Because you won't be able to forget about those weaknesses in any area of the game, there will always be someone that points out that your spec is wrong, class is bad, talent choices are sub optimal and so on, if you even get an invite to begin with. This all adds up to a mix of things that go against playing what you enjoy to its full extent, sadly. I would love to have the same sense of adventure people had in the early years of the game. Where even if people knew X class was "the weak dps" it didn't matter, you rolled with it, gave each other a chance to do the content and tried to have a good time, that's what I would like to see in WoW again...of course, I don't think it will happen, but if it could that would be what I would want for the game. It seems lost on a lot of players these days that you CAN actually get through the content even if you aren't running the copied MDI champ comp or using the exact tactic the world first raiders were on whatever the boss may be...there just isn't any wide spread willingness to even try these days, which is why I left.
I mean I don’t push to high my highest io across my toons is only 2300 but I’ve got around 5 alts and their io is all around 1900-2300 but that includes a survival hunter and a feral Druid. The hunter is the only one that’s ever been removed from a group and that’s only happened 3 times.
Yes I totally agree, but hey that’s how real world work as well. It has been like this since. I have to say people want what they see instead experimenting what are good and bad. Most of them don’t want to use half of their brain to think playing this game.
I get bored so I play a few specs. Last season I played aff lock, unholy dk and Assa rogue. I played them because they were my fav specs for classes that I hadn't played this xpac. Learning aff again was a challenge, I would like to talk about assa rogue. At the start I would queue as sub, people with add-ons would see the best rogue spec. Just before zoning in I would switch to assa and put poisons on when no one could see me put 4 poisons on. Then playing my fav rogue spec since tbc I would beat everyone on damage, I would vanish silence 3 mobs and kick another and turn pulls that could be broken into easy. I will be playing assa in S3. I am hopeful that outlaw is meta so I don't become just another person in a sea of rerollers
have not finished the video yet, but man this title resonates SO MUCH. the entire WoW community has rotten to the core when it comes to 'meta slavery' culture. I'm so sick of it, and that's the main reason why I'm so hesitant to come back to the game. I just want to play what I enjoy and what I'm good at. I don't want to switch to a different class/spec just because other people think that it's a better pick. As always, unless you are top 1% mythic pushing guild or M+ group, group composition literally does not matter.. Even if you get the identical group composition, 99% of the player bases do not have the same level of class understanding and skillset compared to those top 1% players who have legitimate reasoning behind those specific composition.. I sincerely hope WoW players just start enjoying the game as is, and I miss that atmosphere so much.
Is there a Meta? Yes. Will there always be a Meta? Yes. Will the community perception of a class be driven by the Meta? Yes. Is this healthy for M+? No. Will this ever change? No. Does it suck? Yes. It sucks, but it's reality... I often play off meta specs... like this season I mained a survival hunter... and being declined by pugs for over an hour for +17's thru +20's (while sitting at a 445 ivl and 2700 io) while reading listings for +16's that say "LF AUG" sucks... and is real...
I don't think saying "Will this ever change? No." is a good mindset to have. If we always just ignore everything that's going wrong and never try to change anything then no good can ever happen. There has to be someone that starts to make a change for change to happen.
@@Wavesx I never said to ignore it... and getting it to change is going to be difficult... I mean blizzard themselves have leaned into this mindset but incorporating item levels, building a Raider i.o. type score into the default game... heck one could argue by allowing addons, more importantly damage meters. Now... I'm not against any of this.. How do we "reverse course"? Don't know... that's a difficult thing to do... better closer balancing would help... the closer the classes are balance the less likely the "if you aren't first your last" mentality would permeate down to the "lower level" player base (heroic raiding/+20 max players)... it doesn't help when you have classes perform at such a level that they are referred to as "mandatory" like Aug for example
Even in the comment section here I see some people showing literal allergy reaction with Waves' stance. Man, unless you are in the top 1% M+ group or Mythic raiding guild, your composition does not mean ANYTHING. your group failed to clear +24 key and you think it's because one of our DPS was not from the 'S tier meta classes'? Nah, the answer is not because of the character/spec. It's simply because someone made a mistake or more than one mistake, or even the entire group made mistakes. It's more that than the spec issue. You don't get better at game simply because you play meta spec LOL get better first
Sadly you dont have the reach to get enough people to listen. But yeah let me reassure you, there are dozens of people thinking that way. But the core playerbase does not. And the main reason for that is social media aka streamer and Ppl in the range of 16-30 who blindly listen to whatever they say and even give them money for their unwanted opinions xD
Based. Like, yeah META is fine at the very top end. Got it. With balance there will always, always, always be things that out perform others. Why are we trying to META game weekly keys though? Like bruh 😂
What it boils down to, is that you think that the reasons YOU are playing the game are superior to the reasons OTHER people want to play the game. I have a difficult time understanding why you would have this mindset that is inherently problematic, you cannot impose your way of playing to other people and thank god for that. What you should do, is find similar minded people and play with them. Some people prefer to play PVP, others PVE, why would you want everyone to approach the game in your own way? Meta gaming is ever more prevalent in games and especially multiplayer games and it is simple to understand why. Using your energy to counter this naturally evolving phenomenon is really not productive IMO.
I never said my reasons are superior. I showed things that i think are problematic and also the impact they have on the community. I saw a problem and i think it's a very unhealthy state for the game itself. Not the fact that this mindset exists at all, but the extend of it. Since you commented so early that you can't possibly have finished watching the whole video, i'm not sure if you were properly watching and trying to understand my point of view or if you just wanted to bash on it.
yeah, and you are the best example, the stereotype toxic mindset of modern MMO meta slavery culture that destroys the gaming experience. Just like you said, stay with other meta FOMO slaves and do not impose YOUR way of thinking to others. There are more people who got tired and burnt out because of that toxicity than those you genuinely enjoy and love that mindset
@@Wavesx You calling out everyone that is okay with "meta gaming" and saying in short that they are misguided and should change their ways is the same thing as thinking that your way of playing is superior and everyone should adhere to that. The simple fact is that because this way of gaming is so prevalent just shows that people prefer playing the game this way and are okay with it. You, being in the top 1% of the player base and are playing competitively for years should understand that better than most. The reason you are siming every little upgrade for a 0,1% dmg upgrade is the same as a party leader deciding on a better performing spec over another.
@@PuffGroundHoggy When someone doesn't invite you in his key or raid or PVP party or whatever, he is not imposing something on you, he is declining the will to play with you because you obviously do not fulfill his expectations. If however you believe that this person should be REQUIRED to play with you, now you are being tyrannical. Your logic is immensely flawed.
@@viresinnumeris1948 Me simming every 0.1% upgrade has nothing to do with the topic of the video. I play enhancement because I enjoy it and want to become as good as i can with it. I don't care if they nerf/buff it or whatever, i don't blindly follow meta views. On top of that i have countless people talk to me every day about how miserable their experience playing wow has become through the whole "meta" thing. So there is a problem there for a lot of people. This doesn't mean btw that people are not allowed to be okay with it. You can disagree with me, you can be fine with fotm rerolling or whatever you want. This is supposed to get people to think about the topic and have a grown up discussion about it, because i think there are things that are problematic. So feel free to disagree, but please don't put things in my mouth or twist stuff i said to make it sound like something completely different.
Love you thoughts here. Players def seem to be just playing the game for the reward at the end. They don't care about the journey, just the ending. We gotta keep letting players know that it's ok to enjoy the journey. It's ok to not be min-maxing every part of their gameplay. Great video Waves :)
exactly. obv you'll have some brainwashed sweatlords that will argue "i enjoy winning and doing good, not the journey" and there's nothing we can do but be disgusted at that mentality
I've been playing WoW at a CE level for 6 years now (now at WR400), spending lots of time following experts and discussions on class discords/online etc, and the most surprising thing I've learned is that even experienced players have literally no idea what they're talking about when it comes to non-meta specs. Or even off-meta talent builds sometimes.
I played an off-meta build for Aberrus this tier and because I loved it so much and practiced it all the time, I performed really well. It is the most satisfying feeling of my CE experience in the last 6 years.
Finally someone that emphasize this “problem” or what is hurting the m+ community. I agree with your thoughts! i am around 3750io this season and I am just lucky that my hpal is considered meta spec this season. I think blizzard should somehow change the way the m+ title works or do something that makes people want to play what they love, and not pick what is most OP to get title.
I totally agree with you it is indeed the most fun to achieve the desired goal on the spec or class you love the most!
I personally really agree to the comment you made : The player just want the reward and don't care about the journey to get there !!!
The journey is 'actually' the reason to play this game. I think your spot on on the community vision. Great video and great way to explain it.
Limit Maximum has addressed this in his most recent patch / tier list update video as well. He said when he makes his raid tier lists he feels like people take them the wrong way, and he just tries to show people what is good and bad at the highest level of play where every point of dmg matters. He said that in your average guild raid you shouldn't even need a tier list and that any raid leads that look at his tierlists should not use that to judge if someone can or cannot come to a raid. I used to have a guildee that was alright at the game, and he played marksmanship hunter in recent patches, he topped the charts every pull. However, on Maximum's recent tierlist marksmanship hunter is in desperate need of attention apparently, but my friend played it perfectly fine and made it look broken compared to the rest of us. That just goes to show you, it really does not matter at all unless you are literally competing to kill the final boss for worlds first and the winner can be determined by like 5 health.
As someone who has played enhance since the start of shadowlands, I experienced a lot prejudice during that expansion, 'Oh you're not playing ele? are you trolling?' from the many people who said something similar to me, i can remember just a couple that actually apologized at the end of the key, specially when I topped the god damn dps chart.
I remember, lots of keys where we had to carry a deadweight metaslave that was a warlock, or a druid, or whatever, because they were using a spec that required the tank to pull a certain way, and it was not happening in a pug.
The meta mindset is toxic, and IO is king, that's all. (Unless you want to avoid 5 melees too, since it makes some dungeons a nightmare)
Besides, thinking of parses, most players will not have a purple parse anyway (Above 50%), so the difference of 5% of the meta potential damage is actually irrelevant to them. Because that's how statistics work.
Biggest gripe I have with the meta is how ingrained it is in my own brain. I understand it's flaw but chose to ignore it. Like, do I invite the BM hunter thats 446 ilevel or the demonhunter thats 444? Usually the demonhunter because I understand the strength of the "better" spec, right? I for one have always hated the word meta, and how people tend to corrolate the word meta with the word the best, or the strongest, or the most optimal. That's couldn't be more wrong however. Meta is a constructed philosophy and mutual acceptance of something, have it be the most optimal comp to push the highest level key possible, a healer comp for a raid tier/boss, or simply, how and why we evaluate a specs power in World of Warcraft. The crazy thing is, the meta comps are often constructed by the meta way of making evaluation and analysis. Crazy that isn't it? I'm for sure not saying that the "god comp" wasn't insanely broken or the most optimal strategy, it probably was, HOWEVER, once the meta is accepted and nobody is trying to counter-act or find ways to attack the meta, the game suddenly is doomed. It's not a crazy coincidence why specs like Windwalker, Elemental, Shadow (to an extent) are very unpopular specs to play, because they are more often than not, not considered meta. Does that make these specs crazy unplayable and bad? Quite the opposite actually, they're actually very, very strong specs, but they're not at the very top of the foodchain.
Amen Waves! 🙏 This is exactly what the community should hear about the current state of the game!
Please like, comment and share this video!!!
As much as I agree, unfortunately people are the way they are. There will always be a sizable group, that believes, playing the meta is what magically makes them “win” the game. Not having a clue about boss mechanics, not kicking any casts, etc is all fine for as long as they play the “right” spec.
Except the difference is you do know boss mechanics, class mechanics and THEN you play meta because the game is all #s and someone’s #s are higher
I totally agree! Something i thought about in addition is how some affixes tip the scales a little bit as well.
If lets say a healer is mid, not the best not the worst, but it can deal with a bunch of the affixes really well people are going to want to invite those classes. And this is fine i think, as long as blizzard make it so the affixes are "countered" in different ways by different specs. Or better yet, make no class be able to "counter" affixes at all. Like priests on bursting weeks is just so much quality of life, and it negates the affix completely at the cost of one mass dispel if played around correctly.
Its obviously just a small tangent, but some seasons it feels like it does tip the scales a bit when a spec is good at handling 3-4 affixes + they are balanced well versus a spec that can only help out with one affix + worse balancing that season.
TLDR:
"Play the game for fun"
"I think optimizing is fun"
"..."
Any game with a significant challenge or performance index (M+ key rating, ladders, competition) funnels players toward optimization. This is built into the major systems (endgame PvE/PvP) since difficulty scaling presents new challenges, which must be managed by optimizing player performance. The truth is, most people really LIKE this, and want to play the game this way. And we can't really argue against them.
Think about when you try to solve a difficulty in a raid encounter. Two adds on a boss that both need a kick rotation? We assign it. But how? We optimize it so that it has the least overall impact on the raid team, so that others can focus on different duties or throughput. This happens over and over in content, whether it is optimizing CD use, or raid positioning or boss positioning or CC/Utility use. And solving these puzzles - i.e. leaning into optimization - is one of the stronger payoffs for participating in the game. Each team has a certain amount of bandwidth to deal with raiders/group members who are unable (due to a limitation of class, spec, or their own skill as a player) to optimize in a given situation, but eventually the bandwidth runs out. Think of Priests needing to be moved on Raszageth. There is a point at which some classes are unable to optimize and become a strain on the group. Now sometimes the strain is worth it due to other things they bring to a key or raid fight or PvP match, but you see my point: the meta is a natural development of a desire for optimization, which is the fundamental fuel for participation.
It is all well and good to say that this impulse is deceptive and that nearly all specs do not NEED to optimize so heavily to accomplish their goals as a Mythic Raider, Rank 1 PvPer, or 3kio 25 key pusher. But the optimization impulse comes in at the start of all of these calculations because it is built in to the structure of the game itself. Playing with friends and family can suspend or replace this impulse to some degree, but eventually you run into a wall even here (i.e. where the desire to optimize and push higher content outweighs the interest in playing with a particular person).
Of course, this is amplified by discord culture, where many people pool resources to "solve" the puzzle of optimization (or at least one facet of it), and broadcast it often before the patch or xpac has even launched. This is the double-edged sword of Blizzard leveraging community involvement in testing and PTRs, and it is likely a Pandora's Box that can never be shut. It also extends to the vast array of tools, which Blizz is constantly trying to knock down, in the form of in-game helps, WAs, overlays, and giant scripts that simplify tasks for all players. In short, the pressure to optimize, and the tools to do so, are so strong and numerous, that the whole culture of the game is firmly committed to it.
I say this as a person who spends a lot of time testing out oddball stuff, and debating math, sims, and details in all of these circles. There is a totalizing perspective in these spaces that doesn't account for some potentially innovative ideas. But the point remains that practically speaking, the average player who wants to step up into more difficult content is driven almost entirely by optimization or else they are left to play on their own. They are driven both by their own desire to optimize, but also by this ocean of culture built up around that goal. And for lots of people, it is genuinely the fun part of the game for them, despite how toxic it may make them toward others.
It was fun to play Enhancement during SL. couldn't get in any group/raid. the only time I was accepted it was only to buff the "meta" group but I never changed classes because I love playing Enhancement.
Hi! I don't normally comment on RUclips videos, but... I been watching you since BFA, when I was playing enha for fun (Took a break from my main, boomie at that time). What you said in this video is the truth and I can so relate to everything that you've just said. The whole twitch and RUclips META mindset ruined the game. I am glad I see people like you or Dorki trying to make everyone understand that m+ is playable on EVERY SINGLE SPEC nowadays. I so liked this video and I am sad I have no place to share it for more ppl that play wow to see it (Like social media). Back in S3 of SL I pushed rank 3 disc priest on Tarren Mill and 80 world with the most unwanted and unplayed healer: Disc Priest.. I need to add the fact that it was the Holy Priest season. It was hard yes, but it was really rewarding. Thank you for your video and I really hope people will understand your point.
The worst part about the whole Meta isn't just the mentality of "Ohh i need to play Class/Spec X to reach rank 1", it's also just how this trickels down, people sit in Que's for like 10's and are not getting invited because they play non-meta specs even in difficulties where it doesn't matter at all. Like it happend to my Friend, he reached like 2.5K Rio prior to Aug release, took a break for a few weeks came back and tried Hunter, noone invited him.
It's also why i personally just burn out a lot quicker and even if you reroll, all it takes one single Spec to be added to just destroy it entirely, like Aug for example, prior to the Aug release i atleast saw some differences in Classes, like Enh, Moonkin, WW and Rogues for example, but then Aug got released and ever since it's been the same Aug, S-Priest, F-Mage comp for like 3-4 Months straight.
But we also have to say, that this isn't just a Playerbase issue, it's a balancing issue, if certain Healers for example, can just ignore mechanics thanks to Immunitys while others don't have jack shit, besides a glory fied Ignore pain, yeah i'm talking about MW Cocoon. Then it's obvious that noone in there right mind would EVER play the inferior class/spec if it means, you need to put in double the effort, just to not have people die to said mechanis.
TLDR every class should do the same numbers wise relying on rotation spec and mechanic knowledge.
For a while retails has been homogenized every class has a wall, heal, kick, stop, cc etc. The idea that some class outperform others is archaic, every class should have the potential to do the same numbers.
Realistically any tier list should just be good/better/best with a deep understanding that if you love to play a particular class/spec you should just play that spec, I mean granted that shouldn't have to be said really, but ppl are easily influenced to play a said class simply due to it being better than the one they are playing
I totally agree and i think the "only the reward" mentality is a general problem due to apps and Firms exploiting dopamine
I always start a meta class, and after 2 weeks I end up playing my frost DK because it's fun
Unfortunately there is a simple reason i won't just play what i like to play: getting invited.
You could argue "but if everyone thinks that way, no one will start changing" .. I'm simply not build to fight against the bias of other players. i rather don't play the spec that i love than not to play at all. if you have the opportunity to play with the same ppl every time then hell yes - go for what you love. u will make up for it as a grp.
I agree with the bottomline though: "off meta" doesnt equal "unplayable" and that is the huge problem in the mindset of the people for sure.
Strong Video! Like it!
idk i just be playing survival. but seriously very good video i feel like those tierlists are more or less utility tierlists that's why from season to season the same classes stay at roughly the same spots. you can do damage with every class nowadays it's not the classic days or something similar where there are actually unplayable specs the last time we had that was survival in shadowlands season 1 where it got outperformed by >20% damage wise even if you were to play perfectly. i just hope this video reaches some people and maybe even changes community perception of "bad specs". :p also everytime someone says "I'm stuck in aug prison" i want to kill myself! have a nice rest of your day see ya!
last part is so real
Great video waves !
I totally agree with you but after an hard week of work I just want to PLAY and dont want get declined over and over again until I go to sleep. But if I see a "S tier class" with 3k and 20 played keys for example and a "C tier class" I go with the C tier class if I dont need a spezific spell like BL, CR oder dispell or something form that class. But most of the time the "C tier class" player will be better.
The S tier class player will play the rotation from wowhead and do his dmg until they have to switch a lil bit.
The only role I keep an eye on the tier lists are healers. Sorry to say but in some weeks some heal specs just garbage... Dont want to say that they are not viable but if the S tier class can remove it with w/e and the F tier healer has to sweat to get this done I always will pick the S tier healer. Bursting for example. Why should I pick a druid over a priest this week? Both can do it but with the priest it is so much easier.
In that case it is not the players fault imo.
Will simply never change. Most people aren’t playing for raw fun. On top of that MMO players are just analytical. They always have been
Messed around on an LoTRo private server recently and people are putting together spreadsheets and doing 3 days worth of math calculations just to figure out the meta rotations for a 12 year old game that’s hardest content is equivalent to molten core.
The Information Age is here. Why suck when it’s a google search away
The modern solution is, hopefully, season of discovery. No beta no PTR. At least then we get 2 weeks or so of non meta play
As much as I agree, Aug is the exception. If you don't run one (all your top keys had one) it's actually a worse experience not having one.
I gotta say, augmentation might actually be the exception. Still people don't need to try and tell me they need an augmentation to do a +15 (which some people do).
I agree, Waves. I stopped playing wow a while back, but when I played I didn't care about meta, all I cared about was what I found fun and overcoming challenges in the game with nice, likeminded people. My experiences showed me that the power of a spec plays into (to a degree) how much fun it is to play, but you don't need a broken spec for it to be fun. On the opposite side of that, a fun spec that is undertuned/over nerfed will lose its appeal if left like that for ages. The balancing act is up to blizzard to get right. The community was (the last few years I played) hell bent on tier lists and meta comps etc and that took all the fun out of raiding and dungeons for me. Unfortunately I doubt that will change.
For some reason some specs get left behind every expansion, and should they against all odds happen to be good for once then you have so much complaining that they nerf them into oblivion and forget about them for another 5 expansions. Are those specs playable? yes...is it fun to play them in that state? Not really, no. Because you won't be able to forget about those weaknesses in any area of the game, there will always be someone that points out that your spec is wrong, class is bad, talent choices are sub optimal and so on, if you even get an invite to begin with. This all adds up to a mix of things that go against playing what you enjoy to its full extent, sadly.
I would love to have the same sense of adventure people had in the early years of the game. Where even if people knew X class was "the weak dps" it didn't matter, you rolled with it, gave each other a chance to do the content and tried to have a good time, that's what I would like to see in WoW again...of course, I don't think it will happen, but if it could that would be what I would want for the game. It seems lost on a lot of players these days that you CAN actually get through the content even if you aren't running the copied MDI champ comp or using the exact tactic the world first raiders were on whatever the boss may be...there just isn't any wide spread willingness to even try these days, which is why I left.
I mean I don’t push to high my highest io across my toons is only 2300 but I’ve got around 5 alts and their io is all around 1900-2300 but that includes a survival hunter and a feral Druid. The hunter is the only one that’s ever been removed from a group and that’s only happened 3 times.
Yes I totally agree, but hey that’s how real world work as well. It has been like this since. I have to say people want what they see instead experimenting what are good and bad. Most of them don’t want to use half of their brain to think playing this game.
Man the rant of the other day went hard
I get bored so I play a few specs. Last season I played aff lock, unholy dk and Assa rogue. I played them because they were my fav specs for classes that I hadn't played this xpac. Learning aff again was a challenge, I would like to talk about assa rogue. At the start I would queue as sub, people with add-ons would see the best rogue spec. Just before zoning in I would switch to assa and put poisons on when no one could see me put 4 poisons on. Then playing my fav rogue spec since tbc I would beat everyone on damage, I would vanish silence 3 mobs and kick another and turn pulls that could be broken into easy. I will be playing assa in S3. I am hopeful that outlaw is meta so I don't become just another person in a sea of rerollers
I agree with you. Now give me a tier list!
love the video waves keep up the great work
have not finished the video yet, but man this title resonates SO MUCH.
the entire WoW community has rotten to the core when it comes to 'meta slavery' culture. I'm so sick of it, and that's the main reason why I'm so hesitant to come back to the game.
I just want to play what I enjoy and what I'm good at. I don't want to switch to a different class/spec just because other people think that it's a better pick.
As always, unless you are top 1% mythic pushing guild or M+ group, group composition literally does not matter..
Even if you get the identical group composition, 99% of the player bases do not have the same level of class understanding and skillset compared to those top 1% players who have legitimate reasoning behind those specific composition..
I sincerely hope WoW players just start enjoying the game as is, and I miss that atmosphere so much.
STORM EARTH AND FIRE.... HEED MY CALL!
Getting reward and being meta is FUN
Is there a Meta? Yes. Will there always be a Meta? Yes. Will the community perception of a class be driven by the Meta? Yes. Is this healthy for M+? No. Will this ever change? No. Does it suck? Yes.
It sucks, but it's reality... I often play off meta specs... like this season I mained a survival hunter... and being declined by pugs for over an hour for +17's thru +20's (while sitting at a 445 ivl and 2700 io) while reading listings for +16's that say "LF AUG" sucks... and is real...
I don't think saying "Will this ever change? No." is a good mindset to have. If we always just ignore everything that's going wrong and never try to change anything then no good can ever happen. There has to be someone that starts to make a change for change to happen.
@@Wavesx I never said to ignore it... and getting it to change is going to be difficult... I mean blizzard themselves have leaned into this mindset but incorporating item levels, building a Raider i.o. type score into the default game... heck one could argue by allowing addons, more importantly damage meters. Now... I'm not against any of this.. How do we "reverse course"? Don't know... that's a difficult thing to do... better closer balancing would help... the closer the classes are balance the less likely the "if you aren't first your last" mentality would permeate down to the "lower level" player base (heroic raiding/+20 max players)... it doesn't help when you have classes perform at such a level that they are referred to as "mandatory" like Aug for example
Im 3.1k io shaman and even as healer its hard to get into a 20....
Even in the comment section here I see some people showing literal allergy reaction with Waves' stance.
Man, unless you are in the top 1% M+ group or Mythic raiding guild, your composition does not mean ANYTHING.
your group failed to clear +24 key and you think it's because one of our DPS was not from the 'S tier meta classes'?
Nah, the answer is not because of the character/spec. It's simply because someone made a mistake or more than one mistake, or even the entire group made mistakes. It's more that than the spec issue.
You don't get better at game simply because you play meta spec LOL get better first
Sadly you dont have the reach to get enough people to listen.
But yeah let me reassure you, there are dozens of people thinking that way. But the core playerbase does not.
And the main reason for that is social media aka streamer and Ppl in the range of 16-30 who blindly listen to whatever they say and even give them money for their unwanted opinions xD
Based.
Like, yeah META is fine at the very top end. Got it. With balance there will always, always, always be things that out perform others.
Why are we trying to META game weekly keys though? Like bruh 😂
What it boils down to, is that you think that the reasons YOU are playing the game are superior to the reasons OTHER people want to play the game. I have a difficult time understanding why you would have this mindset that is inherently problematic, you cannot impose your way of playing to other people and thank god for that. What you should do, is find similar minded people and play with them. Some people prefer to play PVP, others PVE, why would you want everyone to approach the game in your own way?
Meta gaming is ever more prevalent in games and especially multiplayer games and it is simple to understand why. Using your energy to counter this naturally evolving phenomenon is really not productive IMO.
I never said my reasons are superior. I showed things that i think are problematic and also the impact they have on the community.
I saw a problem and i think it's a very unhealthy state for the game itself. Not the fact that this mindset exists at all, but the extend of it.
Since you commented so early that you can't possibly have finished watching the whole video, i'm not sure if you were properly watching and trying to understand my point of view or if you just wanted to bash on it.
yeah, and you are the best example, the stereotype toxic mindset of modern MMO meta slavery culture that destroys the gaming experience.
Just like you said, stay with other meta FOMO slaves and do not impose YOUR way of thinking to others. There are more people who got tired and burnt out because of that toxicity than those you genuinely enjoy and love that mindset
@@Wavesx You calling out everyone that is okay with "meta gaming" and saying in short that they are misguided and should change their ways is the same thing as thinking that your way of playing is superior and everyone should adhere to that. The simple fact is that because this way of gaming is so prevalent just shows that people prefer playing the game this way and are okay with it. You, being in the top 1% of the player base and are playing competitively for years should understand that better than most. The reason you are siming every little upgrade for a 0,1% dmg upgrade is the same as a party leader deciding on a better performing spec over another.
@@PuffGroundHoggy When someone doesn't invite you in his key or raid or PVP party or whatever, he is not imposing something on you, he is declining the will to play with you because you obviously do not fulfill his expectations. If however you believe that this person should be REQUIRED to play with you, now you are being tyrannical. Your logic is immensely flawed.
@@viresinnumeris1948 Me simming every 0.1% upgrade has nothing to do with the topic of the video. I play enhancement because I enjoy it and want to become as good as i can with it. I don't care if they nerf/buff it or whatever, i don't blindly follow meta views. On top of that i have countless people talk to me every day about how miserable their experience playing wow has become through the whole "meta" thing. So there is a problem there for a lot of people.
This doesn't mean btw that people are not allowed to be okay with it. You can disagree with me, you can be fine with fotm rerolling or whatever you want.
This is supposed to get people to think about the topic and have a grown up discussion about it, because i think there are things that are problematic.
So feel free to disagree, but please don't put things in my mouth or twist stuff i said to make it sound like something completely different.
Great idea. But people just gravitate towards “the best” there’s always a meta in any competitive game.