Even if it seems like thanking an executioner for his dull axe, being courteous and at least outwardly unaffected by rejection sounds like great advice. When I finally start marketing things I've written, I believe I'll think of my efforts as commodities on the table. If my work can't stand on its own two feet, my options are rewrite it or chuck it, not argue about it. Or, like one of my physics acquaintances said, if you put heart and soul into a paper and find zero acceptance, print a copy, find a wooded area, and heave your work into the trees. Then you can tell your colleagues you've submitted a scientific paper to Nature. They don't need to know the capital N is a typo.
On the feedback thing - I guess the first barrier is that "I looked at it for a limited time, it was crap, and I moved on" - no useful feedback ever. But just reflecting on jobs that I didn't get (non-writing), people only ever gave good/useful/any feedback where they KNEW I was not asking them to defend their position. If people knew you accepted the position, had moved on, and was looking to improve yourself, then sometimes the person on the other end of the phone would want to help provide feedback...because people generally do want to be helpful. That said, if it's a bulk round, and you got shot early, your application was crap, and possibly so are you - don't ask for feedback. We all know really when we are 'reaching'. (edit:typo)
Loving these little chats. I wish I could argue with you as you’ve requested, but I just enjoy the shop talk and your reasonable orientation about the process. It is such a brilliant reminder to be a professional, especially in rejection. We often lose perspective on the work we care most about, especially since we don’t think about anything beyond the momentary rejection. Thank you, as always!
Thanks. I do want disagreement, I mean it when I say I want this to be a conversation, but I can't pretend it isn't gratifying to read something like this.
I developed a habit of asking for feedback based on some efforts at grant writing, which requires you to ask for the feedback they are required to generate. That said, I always preface it with an acknowledgement (after thanking them, as you recommend) that I know feedback is almost certainly not forthcoming. When it does come, it’s usually a single sentence - maybe two. But those top of mind pieces of information is the most useful to me. I also make it a habit of permitting myself a few days before I expect myself to process any feedback - permitting myself a couple days of private disbelief at their inability to recognize my innate genius. After that, it’s easier to process the feedback.
This pro, meaning you, is hired for been seen on Mondays as well as Wednesdays. I agree with your about not asking for feedback, and also ALWAYS respond in a timely fashion and be the professional that you are. Concur.
Apologies in advance, this got a bit rambly... I've been on both sides of this - rejecter and rejectee, if you like - and what you say about being a pro is so true. At this level you (almost) take ability to produce the goods as read. You can write what the ed needs and deliver to schedule? Great! So can these ten other people. So how do you put yourself in the best position to get the job? One way is to be the person who's a pleasure to work with. Not by toadying but, like you say, by being a pro: responsive, reliable, courteous. It all plays into a long-term, unspoken quid-pro-quo. Dealing with rejection well is part of it. Your hope is to build a long-term relationship with the editor (or agent, publisher, whoever) during which they will have to knock you back on things from time to time. If you're going to whine, push back, demand feedback or reassurance every time, well... the relationship won't last long.
Wonderful workshop. My writing is that of a hobbyist to this point. I have had over 100 letters to the editor published in The NY Times. I have also submitted Guest Essay pieces, I think they are now called, but have never had one of those published. I have never submitted anything or sought out a writing job for money. I have been working on a short story for a long time now. I will submit it one day if I live long enough. I enjoy your tech reviews, but I think you have happened on to something special with the workshop idea. I dare say this could be a real money making venture. I would consider paying for it, perhaps to get some editorial feedback on a piece. As for disagreeing, I am sorry but I agree with everything you have said in this episode.
I have never been rejected by a publisher, because I do not approach them. For me it was clear from the beginning, I want to become a selfpublisher and make my own desicions.
Do consider publishers: I have some traditionally published books and some self-published, depending on the audience and so on, but I know that my work has been improved by the process of working with publishers.
@@WilliamGallagher Hi William, thank you for your reply. Seriously,,I am not interested working with publishers and to spend most of the royalties/revenues of my novels with the distributor, publisher and the sales teams. I just found out selfpublishing is my way and I follow that path since 2011. Since then, I contribute to the rent and feed my kids. 🥰 The income is good and stable and I could gather four people for proof reading and lecturing. All the other stuff I do by myself, print and E-Book production, managing the online shops (Amazon, Kobo, Apple Books, Google Playstore, etc.), also creating illustrations and covers for my novels. It's a lot of fun and we, as a team, do work continuesly to improve our workflow. For example, we are currently using Dropbox Paper to do the entire correction process. As soon as I have a chapter ready for lecturing, I upload it and the team can start to work on it, while I start the next chapter. So it is a parallel process. The correction process ist almost finished at the same time, when I have put the magic word "END" unter the manuscript. We also have a team discussion after a novel is done to drive an ongoing improvement process. Greetings, Thomas
I'd say that if what you receive isn't a form rejection letter but it's clear that the sender took the time to read your pitch or submission and write a specific response, then I would write asking for feedback on how your story might better fit the publication or what stories/issues they're looking to cover. Sometimes pieces get rejected because they've already exhausted the topic of dejected writers kicking cats and are now looking for stories on repairing shredded curtains, for example. 😀
My only disagreement there is that if I were the one writing the rejection and I included some specific points, I'd make all of the specific points. I wouldn't have anything more to say.
it's always disappointing to get a rejection - even more so when you don't get a response of any sort. I absolutely agree with not asking for feedback. That's what beta readers are for.
Those who judge writers' work must have feline tendencies, knowing precisely what they want, where and when. Even if kicked, they continue to go their own way. Thank you William for another view from the shed!
It's funny, I've never had a moment's doubt over a piece that's been sent to me. I think you get so embedded in the publication, you focus so much all the time on its audience, that you know instantly whether something is in the frame or not. Doesn't mean it might not need work, but you know if you're going to reject something immediately.
Even if it seems like thanking an executioner for his dull axe, being courteous and at least outwardly unaffected by rejection sounds like great advice.
When I finally start marketing things I've written, I believe I'll think of my efforts as commodities on the table. If my work can't stand on its own two feet, my options are rewrite it or chuck it, not argue about it.
Or, like one of my physics acquaintances said, if you put heart and soul into a paper and find zero acceptance, print a copy, find a wooded area, and heave your work into the trees.
Then you can tell your colleagues you've submitted a scientific paper to Nature. They don't need to know the capital N is a typo.
😂
Made me laugh.
Spot on, always keep your self-respect and attitude professional.
Thank you, absolutely.
On the feedback thing - I guess the first barrier is that "I looked at it for a limited time, it was crap, and I moved on" - no useful feedback ever. But just reflecting on jobs that I didn't get (non-writing), people only ever gave good/useful/any feedback where they KNEW I was not asking them to defend their position. If people knew you accepted the position, had moved on, and was looking to improve yourself, then sometimes the person on the other end of the phone would want to help provide feedback...because people generally do want to be helpful. That said, if it's a bulk round, and you got shot early, your application was crap, and possibly so are you - don't ask for feedback. We all know really when we are 'reaching'. (edit:typo)
That's a good point. I've seen people open up enormously once I'd clearly accepted the rejection. People are great.
Loving these little chats. I wish I could argue with you as you’ve requested, but I just enjoy the shop talk and your reasonable orientation about the process. It is such a brilliant reminder to be a professional, especially in rejection. We often lose perspective on the work we care most about, especially since we don’t think about anything beyond the momentary rejection. Thank you, as always!
Thanks. I do want disagreement, I mean it when I say I want this to be a conversation, but I can't pretend it isn't gratifying to read something like this.
I developed a habit of asking for feedback based on some efforts at grant writing, which requires you to ask for the feedback they are required to generate. That said, I always preface it with an acknowledgement (after thanking them, as you recommend) that I know feedback is almost certainly not forthcoming. When it does come, it’s usually a single sentence - maybe two. But those top of mind pieces of information is the most useful to me.
I also make it a habit of permitting myself a few days before I expect myself to process any feedback - permitting myself a couple days of private disbelief at their inability to recognize my innate genius. After that, it’s easier to process the feedback.
Oh, absolutely: thank them politely then step away from the whole thing for a few days. That's interesting about grants: I hadn't thought of those.
@ Sadly, my innate genius ends up being less clear after a couple of days.
This pro, meaning you, is hired for been seen on Mondays as well as Wednesdays. I agree with your about not asking for feedback, and also ALWAYS respond in a timely fashion and be the professional that you are. Concur.
Thank you.
Apologies in advance, this got a bit rambly...
I've been on both sides of this - rejecter and rejectee, if you like - and what you say about being a pro is so true. At this level you (almost) take ability to produce the goods as read. You can write what the ed needs and deliver to schedule? Great! So can these ten other people. So how do you put yourself in the best position to get the job? One way is to be the person who's a pleasure to work with. Not by toadying but, like you say, by being a pro: responsive, reliable, courteous. It all plays into a long-term, unspoken quid-pro-quo. Dealing with rejection well is part of it. Your hope is to build a long-term relationship with the editor (or agent, publisher, whoever) during which they will have to knock you back on things from time to time. If you're going to whine, push back, demand feedback or reassurance every time, well... the relationship won't last long.
Absolutely. It shouldn't be the case, I suppose, but it is.
Wonderful workshop. My writing is that of a hobbyist to this point. I have had over 100 letters to the editor published in The NY Times. I have also submitted Guest Essay pieces, I think they are now called, but have never had one of those published. I have never submitted anything or sought out a writing job for money. I have been working on a short story for a long time now. I will submit it one day if I live long enough. I enjoy your tech reviews, but I think you have happened on to something special with the workshop idea. I dare say this could be a real money making venture. I would consider paying for it, perhaps to get some editorial feedback on a piece. As for disagreeing, I am sorry but I agree with everything you have said in this episode.
Thank you, that's tremendous of you to say. Now get back to writing that story.
I have never been rejected by a publisher, because I do not approach them. For me it was clear from the beginning, I want to become a selfpublisher and make my own desicions.
Do consider publishers: I have some traditionally published books and some self-published, depending on the audience and so on, but I know that my work has been improved by the process of working with publishers.
@@WilliamGallagher Hi William, thank you for your reply. Seriously,,I am not interested working with publishers and to spend most of the royalties/revenues of my novels with the distributor, publisher and the sales teams. I just found out selfpublishing is my way and I follow that path since 2011. Since then, I contribute to the rent and feed my kids. 🥰 The income is good and stable and I could gather four people for proof reading and lecturing. All the other stuff I do by myself, print and E-Book production, managing the online shops (Amazon, Kobo, Apple Books, Google Playstore, etc.), also creating illustrations and covers for my novels. It's a lot of fun and we, as a team, do work continuesly to improve our workflow. For example, we are currently using Dropbox Paper to do the entire correction process. As soon as I have a chapter ready for lecturing, I upload it and the team can start to work on it, while I start the next chapter. So it is a parallel process. The correction process ist almost finished at the same time, when I have put the magic word "END" unter the manuscript. We also have a team discussion after a novel is done to drive an ongoing improvement process. Greetings, Thomas
I'd say that if what you receive isn't a form rejection letter but it's clear that the sender took the time to read your pitch or submission and write a specific response, then I would write asking for feedback on how your story might better fit the publication or what stories/issues they're looking to cover. Sometimes pieces get rejected because they've already exhausted the topic of dejected writers kicking cats and are now looking for stories on repairing shredded curtains, for example. 😀
My only disagreement there is that if I were the one writing the rejection and I included some specific points, I'd make all of the specific points. I wouldn't have anything more to say.
First comment 🎉🎉🎉🎉
Made me jump.
it's always disappointing to get a rejection - even more so when you don't get a response of any sort. I absolutely agree with not asking for feedback. That's what beta readers are for.
I'm surprisingly okay with not getting a response because the moment I send it in, I've moved on in my head.
@@WilliamGallagher The problem I have with not getting a response is knowing when to offer the pitch to someone else.
Cats are not for kicking. 😿
I'm assuming they'll run away before foot connects.
Those who judge writers' work must have feline tendencies, knowing precisely what they want, where and when. Even if kicked, they continue to go their own way.
Thank you William for another view from the shed!
It's funny, I've never had a moment's doubt over a piece that's been sent to me. I think you get so embedded in the publication, you focus so much all the time on its audience, that you know instantly whether something is in the frame or not. Doesn't mean it might not need work, but you know if you're going to reject something immediately.