CORRECTIONS! Z-Axis Ball Screw is 40mm diameter with a 16mm pitch. the "IHMI" is not the proprietary overlay...the IHMI is an actual fanuc update. i realized that wasnt clear while re-watching
Okuma Genos M-460 V 5ax does not have linear scales as we normally know them as. I.e. rotary absolute encoders on the end of the ball screws / servos (these absolute encoder units have circular glass scales) - so watch out for marketing tautologies. Ask them to show you pictures of the linear scales. AFIK no Genos machine has linear (like glass or magna-scales etc.) fitted as standard or as an option you can "Beg" for. On the MX 520 there seems to be some reports of mysterious spindle growth; worth checking into could be anomalous. Both are nice machines. Seems the MX 520 would about $100K more than the M-460v- 5ax ? No ? The "Ergos" on the MX 520 are really nice IMO.
@@extradimension7356 Thanks for the info, I talked to an AE today and he sweared it has “band” scale which is linear, I thought it has too, if it’s just that small rotary scale then for sure it’s not good, I doubt the 2um accuracy they claimed because it’s not center cooled ball screws (they also claimed their scale has.25um resolution)
@@socrates5573 If they don't show you actual photographs of linear scales on a Genos machine and part numbers then they don't exist ~ Promise - It is possible to have accurate linear translation from a rotary encoder for a linear translation mechanism IF you have GOOD thermal compensation [Check ] and pre tensioned ball screws [Check ] + proper pitch error compensation mapped using laser interferometer (like Renishaw) [check] + proper use of said pitch error compensation tables WITH thermal compensation using sensors on the machine and appropriate software on the control --- [Check ]. Remember the Genos is their "Budget" line not their "Nuke building " line like the MU line that does have direct scales all axes. Just sayin. Depends what you need / want to do. Ta.
I like that the Matsuura works with CAMplete. As you're making moulds, it'll give you the best possible chance of getting something right first time, and spotting the cause of any issues should they arise. You can also use whatever CAM software you want with the CAMplete post processor. The Matsuura also seems like the more versatile package, in terms of spindle speed, size of work envelope, and ease-of-automation.
I just purchased my 8th Okuma. 20,000 rpm hsk 63 mb4000h 6 pallet 146 tool. If you go 20k spindle go HSK. The inaccurate pull stud location alone of a CAT will through your balance out. Okuma hold great accuracy without the need for glass scales. They have fantastic true position encoders. We have machines we bought in the 80's that still hold .0002" measured on a supermic. Don't let the power requirement scare you off. When they call for 70 amp the actual draw on a gage is 19 amp at full spindle load. A 200 amp callout was only 37 amp at full load.
What Tha? Moving up into a 5 Axis machine. That's frigging awesome Jason. Congratulations buddy, you're going from strength to strength. Cheers, Aaron. PS: both awesome machine by the way. However, the question for me would be after sales service and support?? Let me tell you about the Okuma dealer over here in Aus. The general manager kicked me out of their stand at the big trade machinery show because I was filming. Claims it could be sensitive customer work. At a FKN trade show? Like WTF, wnkers
I ran 2 different Okuma lathes about 10 years ago. The codes on them are like you said a little different. The code that lowered the pressure in the jaws in the okuma. when you ran a mori seiki lathe that same code would un clamp the part. Which is so much fun when the part falls out in the conveyor weighing 1000 lbs.
My Grandfather and Dad used to own Machinery Sales Company, and Hurco provides fantastic support for their customers and also Kitamura makes a great machine, if you’re still thinking about those two builders at all. Idk, that’s just in my experience as a salesman for MASCO. Good luck with your purchase sir! Thanks for sharing!
Sorry I saw this video and got so excited for you, I can't believe I missing this video. I was so excited to post I didn't finish the video, but I get the impression you didn't decide yet. I have a 3 year old genos m460 5ax and when I bought it I was in the same boat as you, it was between these two machines. Don't get me wrong the matsurra is a great machine but the okuma is just in another league. I'll get my only 2 complaints out of the way first. Max tool length of 9.5 inches and its very hard to automate. Other than that I can't say enough good about it. It's unbelievably ridged for a 5 axis, when roughing 3 axis parts on it it cuts identical to our M560 which is beast and I honestly hardly notice a difference between it and our MB4000H. I've done some pretty precise mold work holding 7micron tolerances on it no problem. It's never been down once in the 3 years we've had it. And even after a 200lb part came out of the vice with the A axis tipped 90degs, when I run the auto tuning cycle(which is so easy) it still shows the same volumetric error of 0.0003" over its entire work area. I don't know what the dealer is like in your area but they are amazing here. And I get the idea that thats a big focus for them worldwide. Also the osp may be a bit different but it's so user friendly. Sorry but I just can't say enough about it. I own 8 cnc machines and like most of them, but the genos 460 5ax is just blows me away everything I'm running it.
Also let me know if you have any questions about it or if you need a fusion 360 post, I would suggest investing in something like hypermill for 5 axis but I've seen you use fusion 360
Thank you for considering Matsuura for your prospective partner. Very interesting insights in the comparison. Reading some of your comments, it was unfortunate that the deal ended up like that.
i'm working on a video that covers this situation and a few other topics very soon....CAD /CAM / Collision detection ----perpetual license vs subscription.
Been on the apps for 25 years worked for Okuma and maatsuura in the uk to be honest both amazing machines can’t go wrong with either…best of the best as far as machine tool builders go…all depends on what you can afford and what deal you get from the maker…only thing I can say..advice ..a must what ever you want to call it …after working closely with 100s if not 1000s..of customers during the purchase phase of what machine I need….BUY THE BIGGEST working envelope you can afford..
I went through the same process 6 months ago for our 1st 5 axis machine. Take a close look at electrical power requirements for both machines, we were all set to order the Okuma and found out at the last minute it requires 170 amps. Like many small industrial shops we have a 200 amp panel, so this was a non starter. We bought a new UMC 750 with HSK63 spindle (requires 70 amps- much more reasonable) and are very happy with it.
Wow that sounds crazy. I have a Mazak integrex and it takes 120amps. I’ve been running it on a 100amp breaker fine so far. That has 2 turning spindles 2 turrets and a milling spindle crazy that the okuma would take 170amps
@@NerdlyCNC Yes, I just checked again from my quote. See Okuma document "Genos M460V-5AX Installation Preparation" section 5, the 15k spindle machine requires a 150 A breaker, and the 20k spindle machine requires a 175 A breaker. All voltages are 208 3 Phase.
@@NerdlyCNC the M560 install notes requires 150A 3 Phase, well, we run on one 100A breaker "simultaneously" our M560(at 100% rapids and 15K rpm) and a 7.5HP screw compressor, and a whole office of lights-4 computers-phones-cameras-printers, and occasionally our QT15 20 HP is used together as well, we haven't had the breaker pop even once yet(2 years)
I am super excited for your tutorials to start, i want to get into machining one day, i have a pocket NC that i love and use a lot but i want to get a bigger machine in a few years and am all self taught. Your classes will be great for me, keep up the great work i have followed you for years and also race 1/10 buggys. I would love to get a VF2 sized machine with a 4th axis, that's my dream anyway!
I work for a certain large CAM company, and the interface and quality of code using Camplete as essentially the post processor is pretty amazing. I haven't used it first hand, but everyone I talk to loves it. Whereas Okuma post processors can be a bit finicky until you get all the OSP specifics dialed in. As far as quality of machines go, I don't think you can go wrong with either.
Them okumas hold tolerance, great machines! place I used to work for had 6 of the 3 axis mills and 2 5axis with 100 tool changer. only time they didn’t run 15k rpm was tapping and held up
late to the party and see you went okuma, but I run an mx520 or 2 every day, and we've got 8 genos 560's running almost 24/7, and you definitely narrowed it down to 2 solid options. I believe you could go with either, learn them, and make good parts for years to come with either. Seeing okuma warranty spindles for 20k hours is pretty wild though when they run at wide open all the time...
Did you look at the Mori Seiki NMV series 5-axis? it does have a B-axis, but it don’t have a knuckle in the front. And the entire top folds back so you can use a crane to load parts, if you needed to. My shop has 3. The fully decked out one that we have has the lathe table (1500RPMs) and glass scales with 0.00001”/.0001deg graduations on all axis. As long as the shop is thermally stable, we can hold 10millionths on it, if need be. They come loaded with a full version of Esprit. We have never had a serious issue with any of them. Although the second one we got has the 5 pallet changer and the 300 tool magazine. we’ve had endless headaches with those two options. I wouldn’t suggest those to anyone. I don’t think mori mass produces them anymore because its an older 5-axis series, but you can order one from the factory. A couple of months ago my shop was thinking of trading in our 3rd NMV for a second one with the lathe table option.
Time for some field trips - visit shops that have the machine in question in use for the same type of application. Spend a full day or 2 with both the programmers and operators. While this did not help me make my final choice, it did take my short list from 5 possibles down to the final 2. Knowing what you DON'T want can save on buyers remorse.
Hello sir, I'm contemplating to open a machine shop in México. From conventional machining (manual lathe, mill and grinder) to CNC (just a lathe and a mill). Obviously I can't afford a brand new CNC machine, so I would like to ask you which brand of machine and model do you advice me to start with?? Something that is easy to mantain, a friendly controller and reliable. Thanks
Hi. Nice video. We are also looking in to 5 axis machines and okuma is really great. But we also found some great characteristics in DMG mori and Mazak. Did you look at them?
I work at a high end R&D shop in cali where we use matsuuras, we are switching all to Hermle due to value the Heidenahin control and HSK63 brings. The C250 is $350-400k shipped and C400 is $400-450k shipped, in my opinion if you can stretch your budget get the C400 with 18k rpm(can only use 15k rpm 24/7) but mineral casting base and HSK63 is 3 times better in any way compared to CAT40. CAT40 at 20k rpm you loose a lot of clamping rigidity due to how it hold the pull stud. I think overall Matsuuras are fantastic for production but if you are running new code all the time Heidenhain control is the best. Also Hermle has special Spindle bushings that protect your spindle from damage if it crashes which good luck replacing the spindle in Matsuura under $50k.
C250 and 400 are the stripped models. Be aware you better like the sound of gear whine if you go Hermle, so not the Cadillac that people assume. Still a stout contender.
Get the Matuura!! Ive ran their Horizontal machines for 11+ years...they really are production machines. I dream of having a MX330 with pallet pool . congrats to be in this position
Thanks for the kind words Boone....unfortunately they pulled the deal out from under me....I'm gonna share a bit more in an upcoming video..."Tips for Buying a CNC Machine". Apparently Selway was going to sell me a "New in Crate" MX520 for $313k but never told me they only had 1...i guess maybe it was a 2020 or something......i drove 80 miles down to Valencia yesterday to see a MX520 at a customers shop.....Today I tried to place my PO and was told now my price is $360k .......
Thoughts on DMG? The DMU50 has an AC trunnion, but it’s a single support so no knuckle to get over. Then there’s always the DMU65, but I think it’s pushing into Grob territory (price wise). Speaking of Grob, have you looked at the G150? Also, it would be really helpful if you would mention pricing - even if it’s only the relative difference between the two… I get that you might not want to completely spill the beans before you have a signed contract, but it sure would be nice to get machine tools out of this black box pricing scheme (it’s probably responsible for 1/2 of haas’ initial sales, sure wish other mtb would jump on the boat).
Very interesting video! To save your back you might be looking at a good crane access into the machine. I think that should be more important then the configuration of the axis. Have you considered a dmg dmu50? Very good access to the plate and it is in the same price region.
@@NerdlyCNC you welcome. What CAM system you planning to use for 5x programming? You can get Solidcam for free or with pretty good discount if you will start blogging about it.
@@ov3753 I'm going to continue to use either solidworks / HSMworks or F360......i already have the main true 5 axis simultaneous toolpaths that we run.....the rest of our new tooling will be 3+2
If you wanted to auto set your H value on the Fanuc, you could build a 9001 mask program for m6 by setting parameter 9071=6 and inside, just have it say something like: G91g30z0 (or whatever the matsuura tool change position is) M6 G43H#4120 M99 That will set your tool offset to the current tool number (t10 = h10) but #4120 is volatile, which i never cared for, so you'd have to test an m6 on the spindle tool on a power up. On Makino and DMG Mori, tool offsets are handled with a management system that utilizes H1. in most scenarios, despite having a Fanuc in the background. Careful with the Genos, they're known for blown spindles. Did you look at the DMG Mori DMU 50 gen 3?
The CMX is not simultaneous 5 axis. He is looking for a simultaneous machine so the DMU50 or 70 is for him. Edit: I saw a comment that he indeed is looking for a 3+2 so the CMX would actually be a good choice for him. Ive set up a cmx 50 u and a 70 for a client of mine. they ar both very rigid machines and very fast. The same toolpaths with same fixturing on a haas produce tons of chatter, on the cmx dead quiet-no chatter.
I loved working on DMG time ago. Ergonomic of machine and Heidenhain control still my favorite , but reliability and quality of DMG failing to compare with Japanese machine. From European machines I would consider Hermle or Mikron, but they are much more expensive.
Have you looked at the German 5 axis machines yet? They have some really slick and not all that totally outrageous priced machine... well I mean they are really expensive but they do offer some of the best performance in the business.
I’m guessing you’re noodling this around already, but worth considering how to evaluate ‘service after the sale’ value from either local distributor. The best machines / equipment etc. lose a lot of appeal if local support isn’t good, or if ‘local’ only means same country, continent or hemisphere LOL. If things never go wrong then nothing to worry about 😂. Good luck with your research and decision, always fun to think about new possibilities.
@@alexkern9134 it’s been great, we’ve only had them out there a couple times for the machines. The machines don’t require a lot of maintenance and when they do the machine tells you what to do.
@@alexkern9134 they help us with any questions we have regarding the machines and the tech is out there within a couple days if anything goes wrong. The only thing that’s gone wrong with them is the glass on the door was cracking and they replaced it for free took about 2 hours to change it out.
Check your maintenance and troubleshooting manual, Its a timer. Should be T18 (Work light off timer) will be 1H but you can make it 0M to make it ineffective.
Okumas are rock solid only liquid oil is just the spindle and rest grease for the axis. The okuma full 5 axis you will need long tool holders and have to get a long fixture so you can get closer to your work
Heidenhain makes the transition to 5axis thee easiest. Seriously, two codes separates 3axis and 5. Feed rate planning is best in industry, and stupid simple to implement. E500U from Mikron will destroy the 460 in full 5axis and nobody can touch the pallet option value on price. I really like the M560 as the best 3axis value available and own an Okuma. Amazing durability.
You're short circuiting yourself by not exploring the Hermle C250. "ALL THEY DO IS 5 Axis!" Hermle is the best in this space. You're looking at the right things and I would encourage you to invite them to the dance.
I'm not keen on dual contact tooling. When the spindle warms up the flange contact can be lost due to thermal growth. Have you looked at Kitamura who make the Mycentre 5 axis range. Also Buffalo machinery www.buffalo-machinery.com/en/ They also do the Microcut challenger and the Axile G8 which is quite popular in the UK.
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CORRECTIONS!
Z-Axis Ball Screw is 40mm diameter with a 16mm pitch.
the "IHMI" is not the proprietary overlay...the IHMI is an actual fanuc update. i realized that wasnt clear while re-watching
Have you looked at makino 5 axis? D200z to small for you?
@@karlssonengineering too small.
Okuma Genos M-460 V 5ax does not have linear scales as we normally know them as. I.e. rotary absolute encoders on the end of the ball screws / servos (these absolute encoder units have circular glass scales) - so watch out for marketing tautologies. Ask them to show you pictures of the linear scales. AFIK no Genos machine has linear (like glass or magna-scales etc.) fitted as standard or as an option you can "Beg" for. On the MX 520 there seems to be some reports of mysterious spindle growth; worth checking into could be anomalous. Both are nice machines. Seems the MX 520 would about $100K more than the M-460v- 5ax ? No ? The "Ergos" on the MX 520 are really nice IMO.
@@extradimension7356 Thanks for the info, I talked to an AE today and he sweared it has “band” scale which is linear, I thought it has too, if it’s just that small rotary scale then for sure it’s not good, I doubt the 2um accuracy they claimed because it’s not center cooled ball screws (they also claimed their scale has.25um resolution)
@@socrates5573 If they don't show you actual photographs of linear scales on a Genos machine and part numbers then they don't exist ~ Promise - It is possible to have accurate linear translation from a rotary encoder for a linear translation mechanism IF you have GOOD thermal compensation [Check ] and pre tensioned ball screws [Check ] + proper pitch error compensation mapped using laser interferometer (like Renishaw) [check] + proper use of said pitch error compensation tables WITH thermal compensation using sensors on the machine and appropriate software on the control --- [Check ]. Remember the Genos is their "Budget" line not their "Nuke building " line like the MU line that does have direct scales all axes.
Just sayin.
Depends what you need / want to do.
Ta.
I like that the Matsuura works with CAMplete. As you're making moulds, it'll give you the best possible chance of getting something right first time, and spotting the cause of any issues should they arise. You can also use whatever CAM software you want with the CAMplete post processor.
The Matsuura also seems like the more versatile package, in terms of spindle speed, size of work envelope, and ease-of-automation.
Wow jay.....tormach to THIS???!!! YOUVE DONE WELL! WAY TO GO! CANT WAIT TO SEE WHAT YOU GO WITH!
I just purchased my 8th Okuma. 20,000 rpm hsk 63 mb4000h 6 pallet 146 tool. If you go 20k spindle go HSK. The inaccurate pull stud location alone of a CAT will through your balance out. Okuma hold great accuracy without the need for glass scales. They have fantastic true position encoders. We have machines we bought in the 80's that still hold .0002" measured on a supermic. Don't let the power requirement scare you off. When they call for 70 amp the actual draw on a gage is 19 amp at full spindle load. A 200 amp callout was only 37 amp at full load.
What Tha? Moving up into a 5 Axis machine. That's frigging awesome Jason. Congratulations buddy, you're going from strength to strength. Cheers, Aaron.
PS: both awesome machine by the way. However, the question for me would be after sales service and support?? Let me tell you about the Okuma dealer over here in Aus. The general manager kicked me out of their stand at the big trade machinery show because I was filming. Claims it could be sensitive customer work. At a FKN trade show? Like WTF, wnkers
Finally!! Actually I was waiting for this. Supper happy. Please take us through the journey as you did before.
I ran 2 different Okuma lathes about 10 years ago.
The codes on them are like you said a little different. The code that lowered the pressure in the jaws in the okuma. when you ran a mori seiki lathe that same code would un clamp the part. Which is so much fun when the part falls out in the conveyor weighing 1000 lbs.
My Grandfather and Dad used to own Machinery Sales Company, and Hurco provides fantastic support for their customers and also Kitamura makes a great machine, if you’re still thinking about those two builders at all. Idk, that’s just in my experience as a salesman for MASCO. Good luck with your purchase sir! Thanks for sharing!
Amazing to see your business now from where I started following you. Keep up the good work, best of luck.
I run an okuma genos 560v at work. Such a nice machine. Super rigid and accurate.
glad to see you evaluating other options, too!
good luck on your journey!
Sorry I saw this video and got so excited for you, I can't believe I missing this video. I was so excited to post I didn't finish the video, but I get the impression you didn't decide yet. I have a 3 year old genos m460 5ax and when I bought it I was in the same boat as you, it was between these two machines. Don't get me wrong the matsurra is a great machine but the okuma is just in another league. I'll get my only 2 complaints out of the way first. Max tool length of 9.5 inches and its very hard to automate. Other than that I can't say enough good about it. It's unbelievably ridged for a 5 axis, when roughing 3 axis parts on it it cuts identical to our M560 which is beast and I honestly hardly notice a difference between it and our MB4000H. I've done some pretty precise mold work holding 7micron tolerances on it no problem. It's never been down once in the 3 years we've had it. And even after a 200lb part came out of the vice with the A axis tipped 90degs, when I run the auto tuning cycle(which is so easy) it still shows the same volumetric error of 0.0003" over its entire work area. I don't know what the dealer is like in your area but they are amazing here. And I get the idea that thats a big focus for them worldwide. Also the osp may be a bit different but it's so user friendly. Sorry but I just can't say enough about it. I own 8 cnc machines and like most of them, but the genos 460 5ax is just blows me away everything I'm running it.
Also let me know if you have any questions about it or if you need a fusion 360 post, I would suggest investing in something like hypermill for 5 axis but I've seen you use fusion 360
Thank you for considering Matsuura for your prospective partner. Very interesting insights in the comparison. Reading some of your comments, it was unfortunate that the deal ended up like that.
thanks for commenting ...i was disappointed for sure.
i'm working on a video that covers this situation and a few other topics very soon....CAD /CAM / Collision detection ----perpetual license vs subscription.
Ballscrews on the 460 are 40mm, the 16mm number was the pitch of the screws for the Z axis :)
Thank you. I misread. Updated pinned comment.
My 1st Okuma 2002 👍
I now have a total of three Okuma and one Cincinnati.
Hey great vid and excited to see what you end up getting. I'm also looking forward to your CNC noobies bids. Cheers
Been on the apps for 25 years worked for Okuma and maatsuura in the uk to be honest both amazing machines can’t go wrong with either…best of the best as far as machine tool builders go…all depends on what you can afford and what deal you get from the maker…only thing I can say..advice ..a must what ever you want to call it …after working closely with 100s if not 1000s..of customers during the purchase phase of what machine I need….BUY THE BIGGEST working envelope you can afford..
Really cool from you to share your thoughts and stuff about your search. GOOD LUCK
I went through the same process 6 months ago for our 1st 5 axis machine. Take a close look at electrical power requirements for both machines, we were all set to order the Okuma and found out at the last minute it requires 170 amps. Like many small industrial shops we have a 200 amp panel, so this was a non starter. We bought a new UMC 750 with HSK63 spindle (requires 70 amps- much more reasonable) and are very happy with it.
170 amps using 3 phase 208?
Wow that sounds crazy.
I have a Mazak integrex and it takes 120amps. I’ve been running it on a 100amp breaker fine so far.
That has 2 turning spindles 2 turrets and a milling spindle crazy that the okuma would take 170amps
@@NerdlyCNC Yes, I just checked again from my quote. See Okuma document "Genos M460V-5AX Installation Preparation" section 5, the 15k spindle machine requires a 150 A breaker, and the 20k spindle machine requires a 175 A breaker. All voltages are 208 3 Phase.
@@darbikrash1 hmmm...i guess we may have to run this on 480 if we get it
@@NerdlyCNC the M560 install notes requires 150A 3 Phase, well, we run on one 100A breaker "simultaneously" our M560(at 100% rapids and 15K rpm) and a 7.5HP screw compressor, and a whole office of lights-4 computers-phones-cameras-printers, and occasionally our QT15 20 HP is used together as well, we haven't had the breaker pop even once yet(2 years)
I am super excited for your tutorials to start, i want to get into machining one day, i have a pocket NC that i love and use a lot but i want to get a bigger machine in a few years and am all self taught. Your classes will be great for me, keep up the great work i have followed you for years and also race 1/10 buggys.
I would love to get a VF2 sized machine with a 4th axis, that's my dream anyway!
I work for a certain large CAM company, and the interface and quality of code using Camplete as essentially the post processor is pretty amazing. I haven't used it first hand, but everyone I talk to loves it. Whereas Okuma post processors can be a bit finicky until you get all the OSP specifics dialed in. As far as quality of machines go, I don't think you can go wrong with either.
CAMplete is an awesome product that removes so many pitfalls getting into operation.
Available on ALL Mikron mills along with Mats.
Interesting video. I like seeing what goes into making this kind of decision.
Solid overview. If only the Matsuura came with the Okuma paint scheme!
agreed.
Them okumas hold tolerance, great machines! place I used to work for had 6 of the 3 axis mills and 2 5axis with 100 tool changer. only time they didn’t run 15k rpm was tapping and held up
late to the party and see you went okuma, but I run an mx520 or 2 every day, and we've got 8 genos 560's running almost 24/7, and you definitely narrowed it down to 2 solid options. I believe you could go with either, learn them, and make good parts for years to come with either. Seeing okuma warranty spindles for 20k hours is pretty wild though when they run at wide open all the time...
Did you look at the Mori Seiki NMV series 5-axis? it does have a B-axis, but it don’t have a knuckle in the front. And the entire top folds back so you can use a crane to load parts, if you needed to. My shop has 3. The fully decked out one that we have has the lathe table (1500RPMs) and glass scales with 0.00001”/.0001deg graduations on all axis. As long as the shop is thermally stable, we can hold 10millionths on it, if need be. They come loaded with a full version of Esprit. We have never had a serious issue with any of them. Although the second one we got has the 5 pallet changer and the 300 tool magazine. we’ve had endless headaches with those two options. I wouldn’t suggest those to anyone. I don’t think mori mass produces them anymore because its an older 5-axis series, but you can order one from the factory. A couple of months ago my shop was thinking of trading in our 3rd NMV for a second one with the lathe table option.
Have you thought about palletizing it for your back?
2 Years later, what did you end up deciding? Similar machine discussions happening over here.
Tengo un Matsuura año 1976 Mini Máster. Una maravilla. Espero poder pagar algún día un Matsuura moderno. Soy un fan de Matsuura
Time for some field trips - visit shops that have the machine in question in use for the same type of application. Spend a full day or 2 with both the programmers and operators. While this did not help me make my final choice, it did take my short list from 5 possibles down to the final 2. Knowing what you DON'T want can save on buyers remorse.
thanks greg. i did exactly this
Hello sir, I'm contemplating to open a machine shop in México. From conventional machining (manual lathe, mill and grinder) to CNC (just a lathe and a mill). Obviously I can't afford a brand new CNC machine, so I would like to ask you which brand of machine and model do you advice me to start with?? Something that is easy to mantain, a friendly controller and reliable.
Thanks
Why not the Kitamura? For the price, accuracy, bow way guides, and square footage, they are the best for me.
Hi. Nice video. We are also looking in to 5 axis machines and okuma is really great. But we also found some great characteristics in DMG mori and Mazak. Did you look at them?
I work at a high end R&D shop in cali where we use matsuuras, we are switching all to Hermle due to value the Heidenahin control and HSK63 brings. The C250 is $350-400k shipped and C400 is $400-450k shipped, in my opinion if you can stretch your budget get the C400 with 18k rpm(can only use 15k rpm 24/7) but mineral casting base and HSK63 is 3 times better in any way compared to CAT40. CAT40 at 20k rpm you loose a lot of clamping rigidity due to how it hold the pull stud. I think overall Matsuuras are fantastic for production but if you are running new code all the time Heidenhain control is the best. Also Hermle has special Spindle bushings that protect your spindle from damage if it crashes which good luck replacing the spindle in Matsuura under $50k.
Thanks for the input. These are definitely valuable insights.
I love my Hermle machines! The company I work for has a c60uMT and two C42UMT’s.
C250 and 400 are the stripped models. Be aware you better like the sound of gear whine if you go Hermle, so not the Cadillac that people assume. Still a stout contender.
+1 for Heidy. Best for 5axis
Get the Matuura!! Ive ran their Horizontal machines for 11+ years...they really are production machines. I dream of having a MX330 with pallet pool . congrats to be in this position
Thanks for the kind words Boone....unfortunately they pulled the deal out from under me....I'm gonna share a bit more in an upcoming video..."Tips for Buying a CNC Machine".
Apparently Selway was going to sell me a "New in Crate" MX520 for $313k but never told me they only had 1...i guess maybe it was a 2020 or something......i drove 80 miles down to Valencia yesterday to see a MX520 at a customers shop.....Today I tried to place my PO and was told now my price is $360k .......
Sad to see the VF leave, but excited to see a 5-axis come in!
the VF was literally like brand spanking new....and it served us well. Now its time to try and innovate our manufacturing processes.
Thoughts on DMG? The DMU50 has an AC trunnion, but it’s a single support so no knuckle to get over. Then there’s always the DMU65, but I think it’s pushing into Grob territory (price wise).
Speaking of Grob, have you looked at the G150?
Also, it would be really helpful if you would mention pricing - even if it’s only the relative difference between the two… I get that you might not want to completely spill the beans before you have a signed contract, but it sure would be nice to get machine tools out of this black box pricing scheme (it’s probably responsible for 1/2 of haas’ initial sales, sure wish other mtb would jump on the boat).
Might want to look at the Hermle…
Very interesting video!
To save your back you might be looking at a good crane access into the machine. I think that should be more important then the configuration of the axis.
Have you considered a dmg dmu50? Very good access to the plate and it is in the same price region.
In Matsuura you can type G43 H#518 or #517 ( I don’t remember by heart now) and it will take length offset if the tool in spindle
Thanks, great tip!
@@NerdlyCNC you welcome.
What CAM system you planning to use for 5x programming?
You can get Solidcam for free or with pretty good discount if you will start blogging about it.
@@ov3753 I'm going to continue to use either solidworks / HSMworks or F360......i already have the main true 5 axis simultaneous toolpaths that we run.....the rest of our new tooling will be 3+2
At place I work for we have MX520, MX330PC10 and MAM72-100H. MX520 is my favourite over all others including Mazak Variaxis i700 that we also have
H#518 D#517, add these just after the M6 in the tool change macro. Dont program H+Ds in program and you can then use sister tooling.
If you wanted to auto set your H value on the Fanuc, you could build a 9001 mask program for m6 by setting parameter 9071=6 and inside, just have it say something like:
G91g30z0 (or whatever the matsuura tool change position is)
M6
G43H#4120
M99
That will set your tool offset to the current tool number (t10 = h10) but #4120 is volatile, which i never cared for, so you'd have to test an m6 on the spindle tool on a power up.
On Makino and DMG Mori, tool offsets are handled with a management system that utilizes H1. in most scenarios, despite having a Fanuc in the background.
Careful with the Genos, they're known for blown spindles.
Did you look at the DMG Mori DMU 50 gen 3?
Difficult choice to make in this size bracket. Work envelope could decide between these 2. Very different offerings your looking at.
Which one did you choose?
best video you have produced - thanks
Uht oh Rick, are you seeking a cnc machine? Hi have a great week. L&P
Also check out the Hurco range. They also own Takumi who make the excellent U800.
It comes with camplete!? Daaamn, that is a lot of money...
Matsuura is a "first and last part is good" production machine things
Matsuura 40 year machine. Hands down.
Just curious if you looked into dmg Mori CMX 70 U? And if so what ruled them out?
The CMX is not simultaneous 5 axis. He is looking for a simultaneous machine so the DMU50 or 70 is for him.
Edit: I saw a comment that he indeed is looking for a 3+2 so the CMX would actually be a good choice for him. Ive set up a cmx 50 u and a 70 for a client of mine.
they ar both very rigid machines and very fast. The same toolpaths with same fixturing on a haas produce tons of chatter, on the cmx dead quiet-no chatter.
We need 5 axis simultaneous
I loved working on DMG time ago. Ergonomic of machine and Heidenhain control still my favorite , but reliability and quality of DMG failing to compare with Japanese machine. From European machines I would consider Hermle or Mikron, but they are much more expensive.
You use G43H#517 to call the tool length of what ever tool is in the spindle on a Matsuura.
How much?
No mention of the guide ways? Mazak is always talking about their roller ways.
Have you looked at the German 5 axis machines yet? They have some really slick and not all that totally outrageous priced machine... well I mean they are really expensive but they do offer some of the best performance in the business.
yes but i believe they are more expensive than either of these machines
ya, but don't worry about that the government print more money evey day.
@@TheWidgetWorks ha ha. I haven’t received any :)
Best machines hermle
Jason, look at Makino DA300 too
I’m guessing you’re noodling this around already, but worth considering how to evaluate ‘service after the sale’ value from either local distributor. The best machines / equipment etc. lose a lot of appeal if local support isn’t good, or if ‘local’ only means same country, continent or hemisphere LOL. If things never go wrong then nothing to worry about 😂. Good luck with your research and decision, always fun to think about new possibilities.
Also unless they changed something it's scales on all 5 axis, mine has on all 5
Maybe a Hermle...??
You could look at the Dmg Mori monoblock series. We have 4 of them and we won’t buy any other 5 axis machine they hold insane tolerances
How has the service been?
@@alexkern9134 it’s been great, we’ve only had them out there a couple times for the machines. The machines don’t require a lot of maintenance and when they do the machine tells you what to do.
@@jonahwebb4352 cool, how responsive are they to questions, and how fast are they out to fix your machine?
@@alexkern9134 they help us with any questions we have regarding the machines and the tech is out there within a couple days if anything goes wrong. The only thing that’s gone wrong with them is the glass on the door was cracking and they replaced it for free took about 2 hours to change it out.
Does anybody know how to toggle worklight on my MX-520 ,it keeps closing while machining when i need to watch
Check your maintenance and troubleshooting manual, Its a timer. Should be T18 (Work light off timer) will be 1H but you can make it 0M to make it ineffective.
Okumas are rock solid only liquid oil is just the spindle and rest grease for the axis. The okuma full 5 axis you will need long tool holders and have to get a long fixture so you can get closer to your work
yeah thats a real concern....they also only allow for a 9.45" length tool...
definitely good machines. of the two I'd prefer okuma for repairs, but that's just me.
Okuma
Did you look into Kern machines ?
Yes
16mm is Z axis ballscrew pitch, not diameter.
Heidenhain makes the transition to 5axis thee easiest. Seriously, two codes separates 3axis and 5. Feed rate planning is best in industry, and stupid simple to implement.
E500U from Mikron will destroy the 460 in full 5axis and nobody can touch the pallet option value on price.
I really like the M560 as the best 3axis value available and own an Okuma. Amazing durability.
From all accounts the mx520is a stout mill
You're short circuiting yourself by not exploring the Hermle C250. "ALL THEY DO IS 5 Axis!" Hermle is the best in this space. You're looking at the right things and I would encourage you to invite them to the dance.
Thanks...I think they are out of my budget but i'll shoot them an email
@@NerdlyCNC A C250 package is $350K and a C400 package is $400K so they are not cheap at all!
No scales and noisey drive rotaries. Robust in the roughing catagory
SKMEI TURNNIG COMPIOTER 🌲💪🇧🇷🥇🕴️☸️🏧😉
Get a umc500 and spend all your extra money on software and tooling that you are lacking.
I'm not keen on dual contact tooling. When the spindle warms up the flange contact can be lost due to thermal growth. Have you looked at Kitamura who make the Mycentre 5 axis range. Also Buffalo machinery www.buffalo-machinery.com/en/ They also do the Microcut challenger and the Axile G8 which is quite popular in the UK.