Casuals make up the overwhelming majority of the sales. To understand why it didn't do well you need to look at it from the eyes of actual casuals who boot it up once in a while to mess around with friends, not someone who actually plays it every day and tries to get good at it. Casuals don't care about having to learn characters or matchups. As a casual back then, more characters was a huge plus for me. The more, the merrier. As you said, what hurt the game were stuff like when it came out and the other games it was competing with. Casuals usually only buy one or two games of each genre per console. So, why buy tag2 when you already bought Tekken 6 which had just released only 2-3 years ago on (the same) console? Why buy tag2 when x-other (fighting) game was out at the same time? There were a LOT of (fighting) games during the early 2010's. I personally remember as a casual teen debating whether I should get SFxT or Tag2. Tag 2 really came out at the wrong time and place. Also, the single player content in tag 2 was less interesting for a casual compared to tekken 6 which had a beat'emup campaign mode, and definitely less interesting compared to what some other fighting games were offering at the time.
Because Tekken was Tekken and people played Tag for that team-up. Or if you played solo, to tackle it with different mixes. I knew Street Fighter X Tekken was going to be bad just form looking at it. Cool trailers, but I didn't see much on how it was going to be pulled off with how different they played.
I was also debating whether I should get SFXT or Tag 2 at the time, in fact I was so indecisive that I legit phoned my older bros just to ask them which one I should get, & I just decided to get Tag 2!
The Tag 2 slander breaks my heart. It was a really fun game and it made me realize how deep Tekken can get. I found most of my fav Tekken creators through that game. Also alot of fighting games not named Street Fighter IV, didn't do that great during that time. 7 and 8 are great as well, but let's not forget the developers' love letter to the series
I remember before T7's release JDCR said in an interview that TTT2 was 5yrs at that point, but we the players still needed 5 more years to master it. Meaning it was hella difficult
Copy and paste of what i wrote on his video "Moonsault Stop parroting OTHER peoples opinions as THIS WAS NOT YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THE GAME by YOUR OWN ADMISSION Tekken Tag 2 was a "commercial failure" NOT a failure of a Tekken Game Please Overrate Tekken 7 due to its E-Sports success ( Tekken 7 benefited from things Tag 2 just did not) 1) Tag 2 released at the end of 7th gen consoles - 8th gen consoles had streaming out the box and uploading clips was easily done So it could NOT take advantage of over saturation of Clips being uploaded and could not take advantage of multiple people streaming 2) Tag 2 did NOT have a world tour - No world tour to PROMOTE/MARKET the game or create interesting storylines 3) Tag 2 did NOT have season updates as this was NOT a thing yet in the 7th gen consoles 4) Tag 2 did NOT have DLC guest Characters 5) Tag 2 did NOT have a PC release 6) Tag 2 released at a time SF4 and Marvel both were still popular Tekken 7 released at a time SF5 was not as popular as 4 and MCI was dead - so T7 had LESS competition 7) Finally Community FIGUREHEADS/Influencers KILLING THE GAME (TMMSWE, Aris, RIP, MYK ect to name a few) TMMSWE being the most popular one - UNFORTUNATELY if you are popular as a FGC figurehead or pro player YOUR OPINION "MATTERS MORE" to the casuals or easily impressionable…If you have a high level of influence you can positively and negatively impact your game with your opinions - MAXIMILLIONDOOD does a great job of having his opinions but not CRAPPING on a game he does not like he is responsible with how he presents information….. (Bronson Tran agrees with ME as MYK recalled, how Bronson said SoCal killing tekken tag 2 with the negativity paraphrasing ARIS, RIP ect on there podcast - if i can find it again on RIPs channel i will post it here was a few years ago Tag 2 is a superior game than Tekken 7 Tekken 7 was just the better "E-Sport"
Good post, thanks for sharing it here as I probably won't watch Moon's video this time around. He's not a bad content creator but he's young and frequently parrots opinions about older things and ends up unintentionally perpetuating myths.
Tag 2 was a nightmare to play online, it was basically a game of whi got launched first and making sure that you don't die in two seconds from an incorrect switch. Everyone did too much damage and the shenanigans with the tag combos were way too much to truly enjoy it in ranked. It was ok for casual matches but it was abysmal balance wise in ranked.
Yet thats the state of tekken 8 now, one launch and you basically lose. You get one combo, bring them to the wall, activate heat, force a 50/50 and your opponents basically dead if they guess wrong. At least in tekken tag 2 the game was more enjoyable, tekken 8 is just a frustrating experience.
@@henrynguyen4315TEKKEN 8 is far more enjoyable especially thanks to the grey hp mechanic meaning if you got great fundamentals you can comeback easily.
@@Crimsongz everything that was frustrating in tag 2 is in t8 now. The heat burst is basically the t8 version of tag 2s tag assault system to extend combos which usually leads to a complete wall carry and absurd damage. So basically everything you hated about tag2 basically exist in t8.
@@henrynguyen4315 I went from Tag 2 to Tekken 8 yesterday and had way more fun with the latter lmao. Tag 2 is just an annoying mess and the movement is stiff. I main both Steve and Bryan so no random braindead character.
Tag 2 is my favourite fighter on the PS3 to this day. I still play it occasionally, Tag 2 Kazuya feels much better than 7. He can transform into devil at any point during the fight.
It was probably the worst online experience. Get launched once? That's 120-140 damage right there with a tag combo. Didn't switch to your other character properly? Welp you just lost that round. That game was a balancing nightmare.
T8 is harder imo in term of mechanics since it has too many of them, like I'm still to this day struggle to remember to use heat while being too focused on small Tekken. In Tag2, all you had on top of T6 was a tag button and that was it, or maybe you just tagged out your beaten up character so they could recover their lost health but overall that was it. In T8, you have two entire mechanics related to health only which is too much imo. But in term of matchup, there lied Tag2's true difficulty
If I had to describe the time of Tag 2. Esports and updates were rising, Tag 2 didn't really have much of that outside of the arcade scenes. The two biggest Tag 2 bashers TMM and Aris were going through rough times from heart break to smoking addictions. Street Fighter 4 was pretty much the fighting game king, which had updates and esports presence. Other games were just more interesting than fighting games at the time. All on top of the bad marketing, you'd understand why Tag 2 didn't do so well then. As for complexity and roster, they'll complain either way whether it's too easy, or not enough characters. But I have to say, a long time pro or enthusiast tekken player complaining about fighting or playing characters that hasn't changed much in since Tekken 5 doesn't make much sense. That's definitely a problem with the player, not the game.
I always loved tag 2. That was the game I always played with my older cousins who smoked me every time but it was still fun. I always thought others shared a high opinion of it too
As a little kid and a casual tekken 6 and tag 2 to this day are special to me , being able to to play anyone and customize was alluring to me at a young age
The biggest tragedy of Tag 2 was that Harada and Murray interpreted the failure of the game being due to it being too complex for beginners and casuals, when the reality was that fighting games at the time just weren’t hot property. When it came to casual experiences, shooters like COD ajd battlefield and sports games like FIFA and 2k were in their primes and were the superior live service gaming product in terms of content and netcode (until GTA came out the following year). Tag 2 in my opinion was a victim of timing, pretty poor balancing and a lack of post-launch support from BNE
After hearing that tag 2 was you're favourite game, I was hoping you'd expand some more on why and hear you speak on the why it wasn't liked, so I'm glad to see this vid pop up
Ttt2 has no business having so much detail, their throws, their pair attacks, custom character outros, cg ending for every character, like, whaaaat? Plus the jukebox, the graphics were amazing, the roster was the best.
Using a solo 🐤🎷Bruce, I had whooped ButlerWave's Lili and Dragunov, so solo characters can be DEADLY in TEKKEN TAG 2. TEKKEN TAG 2, TEKKEN 6, and TEKKEN 5 are my big 3 favorites of all time.
Keep cooking Mike. TTT2 was a PHENOMENAL game. Truly phenomenal amd a love letter from Bamco to the fans. I legit would pay 100 bucks today for a rereleease with rollback netcode if it wver got made
It’s also possible that games like Mortal Kombat (2011), UMvC3, KOF XIII, and SFxT had an impact on Tekken Tag 2 not being as successful. I’m not saying Tag 2 is terrible, just that the other games had an impact too.
Tekken Tag 2 had flaws but it was still a very fun time. There was a wealth of variety in the game and u weren't forced to play tag team battles. Anna's octopus 🐙 outfit put Yoshimitsu to shame❣️😋
This is my last comment. I promise. I remember when i was playing Tekken Tag 2 and I remember STREET FIGHTER X TEKKEN being advertised and released during that time. I also remember Mortal Kombat 9 being out around that time. I am pretty sure that Namco promoting the crossover title took a lot out of Tag 2's promotional budget.
Tag 2 was the tekken game that made me want to actually get good at tekken. At the time I had no idea it wasn't doing well and would've never guessed because it was so epic and fun.
Idk why people say tag 2 had bad marketing, if anything it was the most marketed tekken game ever? snoop dogg stage, song and music video, a live action short, a music remix contest, live DJ concerts by Ajurika with Tekken ost...t7 is what barely had any marketing yet sold incredibly well i think tag 2 failed simply because of the time it came out. 2009-2012 was basically when everyone and their grandma only played call of duty and nothing else. most casuals who bought older tekken games to play offline for fun or with friends didn't give a f about any other games during that era, i remember all my school friends not caring anymore about dragon ball games, Tekken games, assassins creed games, gta iv etc... GTA V in 2013 and some sony originals like Last of Us, and PS4 on the way snapped normies out of the CoD craze of 2009-2012
@@TooSweaty7 the only new big SF game to come out in that era was SFxTK which capcom said publicly fell short of their sales goal. mortal kombat 9 was liked by people who played it but idk how it sold compared to previous and later MK games
@@TooSweaty7It might not have been the defining factor but it did play a part. I think people underestimate how different the industry was at that time
@SolidSnake240 I like to view those as the mainstream trends of the time. Current day, we have battle passes and live service games. Which, without a doubt, has helped and hurt fighting games. TT2 was barely talked about after the announcement. I remember thinking it was a rumor for a while. TxSf had more buzz for a sec lol
A little anecdote, I had a Summer job back in 2012. I heard almost NOTHING about Tag 2 and only really knew that it just existed, and as a Tekken fan, I had to have it. When I wasn't playing Tag 2, I was playing Soul Cal 5. The roster was not the issue in Tag 2, since people, casual or otherwise, knew how their favorite characters more or less worked, so having to learn another moveset on the fly wasn't too difficult, but to combo them together was the real hard part.
Tag 2's biggest issue honestly is kind of luck, it couldn't get casuals, or at least not many of em, so only the competitive community played it, and watching how the competitive community tends to act even just in t8, that's basically a recipe for your own demise. Frankly content wise, graphically(in relation to it's time) and costumization wise, it's probably the best tekken game.......ever, yes the balancing was out of place, sure, but that's why it got unlucky, if it had a better chance to get casual players, the balancing wouldn't have mattered at all, and mk9, t5, t3 are a proof of that, plus I'm pretty sure patches were a thing at that time as well, but I can be wrong, but still balancing matters only to a certain extend. The roster is big, ye there are redundant characters, but for most people it's about what they see, not what there is, so yeah the size played a part in why it flopped, but at the same time it could've played a part to make it one of the best games in the series, if it captured casuals, cause honestly, what casual would say no to more content? other than competitive players, and I'm not saying competitive players are bad thing, but they're certainly not the ones who keep a game alive, like t4 wasn't the best game, but it was still good and many tekken players remember it to be great, but the competitive players just gone back to tag 1. Competive players are veeery picky, especially back in the day where big tournament prizes or just big tournaments in general weren't a thing, it's like "is the game more unbalanced or has something I don't like that is not present in the game before? I'll play the game before" that's basically competitive players, at least at the time, cause now thanks to tournaments and stuff, people tend to stick to a game, unless the prizes are too low for a game that sucks too much, but tournaments were not really a thing during tag 2.
nah this a dumb take tag 2 didn't fail because of its roster, smash ultimate has almost double tag 2 rooster size and it outsold every other smash game. Other games with massive roosters that still have a casual playerbase like league of legends like dota 2, like smite, all these games have massive roosters of characters and its not a deterrent. tag 2 release in a down period for tekken, fighting games as a whole where in a down period and only recently started picking back up wit sf4. T6 sold 3.5 mil while T5 sold around 6 mil, and tag 2 sold 1.5 mil. T7 sold around 3 mil in its first year and what did 7 have? Actual fucking advertising, between goose, Noctis, and having a great sets at evo to build hype. Tag 2 failing has alot less to do with the "rooster" and a lot more to do with fighting games being in a down period and Bamco not advertising the game, even as a whole how fighting games handle its advertising now is insanely different. Bombastic character reveals just weren't often. i didnt have some raspy voiced lady screaming my mains name in an odd way to get me hype.
As someone who used to play t6 as a button masher with Baek back in day, honestly lack of accessibility on other platforms (I still play t6 on mobile sometimes due to psp port) and lack of single player modes was what never got me to play it other than occassionally with my friends on arcade where each of use control one character and we decide who would deal with who. From my perspective switch mentally to deal with different character mid match is a lot more daunting like in T8 i can get what the person tries to do after 2 rounds but then a character switch suddenly changing the playstyle in match just sounds intimidating for me as someone who properly started learning tekken from T7 and only occassionally plays tt2 extremely casually with friends
The average casual isn’t going into a fighting game thinking “ oh boy! I can’t wait to learn the frames on all 25+ characters moves! “.. they boot up a fighting game and go “ oh wow I have 35-40 characters to pick from, this guy or girl looks cool. Let’s see how they play. “ I guarantee most of us here who now care about frame data, execution difficulty and all that BS had the exact same reaction when first being introduced to fighting games. Pro Players after while, typically become jaded about certain things because they force themselves to make learning the game their lively hood. So they have to learn the frames on 60 characters because they need to know it in order to win, make money and pay the bills.
It's kind of hard to get behind Moonsault Slayers points when he plays one of the 5 most powerful characters in the game. Characters like Jin and Yoshimitsu both had low win rates in past games but are much stronger in Tekken 8 and have higher win rates as a result. That doesn't mean that players got better but the characters certainly became easier.
I disagree with moonsalut too in this video, but your reason is really weird. He has been playing yoshimitsu for years as far as I know and also why does it matter what character he plays when he is talking about a different tekken game anyway?
@danotoo96 I was referring to the win rates in past games. Jin and Yoshi are higher in the win rates in Tekken 8 but both characters are much stronger than the last game. The win rates for each were lower in Tekken 7. The characters are easier to play so the win rates have significantly improved as a result.
@demetricsmith471 ok, I think I understand what you meant a bit better now. Yes, both these characters got way more accessible and can be played effectively a lot easier. Tbh, I wasn't in that part of the video yet, and your first comment sounded like you were saying moonsaults opinion was irrelevant for no other reason than using yoshimitsu.
Fighting games back then is similar to what gym culture and hell even anime was, a small niche. Back then, it wasn't popular playing fighting games and only became so imo around 2014 (Tekken 7 era). Mainly bc back then, you didn't have all these platforms where you could record, post, gain a following, make money etc. similar to gym culture imo. Gym culture in 2010-2016 isn't anything like it is now even in terms of what it took to be an influencer. Hell guys like Lil Majin and MainMan were so far under the radar unless you really followed competitive gaming. I used to play against MainMan on Tag 2 ranked and in lobbies a ton back then and never knew who he was until a college classmate told me. By then, he was just some guy who had a sick Kaz/Armor King team and I dread facing him on a Promo/Demo match 😂
Snoop Dogg around that time was still a marketing guru. TTT2 didn’t sell well because fighting games weren’t doing too well around that time. Fighting games started doing better in the PS4 era. Moonsault was also right that T7’s marketing was worse than TTT2. No Tekken game on the PS4 increased the demand for a new one.
I knew the Aris video would come up sooner or later 🤣🤣 Btw what fighting game is the hardest in the history of the genre, Virtua Fighter 5, TTT2 or KOF13?
Imagine TTT3. You return to T7's style i.e. no Heat, not all those forced 50/50s. Take out the guests. Put in the missing legacy characters. It would be insane. As some who loves playing the full roster it would be beyond hype. Kat riding on Gigas shoulders? Jack-8 and Gigas overkilling some fool back and forth? Let me decipher that codex man. The prospect of teams you might only ever see one time with completely unique combos would provide such incredible scope for creativity.
Tekken 7 isn't classic Tekken in the slightest so to "return" to Tekken 7 means nothing. It's where the modern garbage actually started with the supers.
You know, maybe it's just me, but I really never had any problems playing Tag 2 competitively. In fact, I literally did better in Tag 2 in any other Tekken game. I just found two characters who I enjoyed, found synergy (which actually makes Tag 2 way more fun when you find how to make your team work well together). I played Jinpachi/Wang and had a damn blast. Also ran Jaycee/Ganryu because they wierdly had great chemistry as a team. Tag 2 was a great game
Tag 2 was underrated but the core community knew what it was, tag 2 did have a lot of characters simply off the switch mode because I'd say it's 59×59 character combinations
Tag 2 seemed like a game that came out at a bad time. Back then I did not play fighters so idk the details but the only one I remember back then was sf4
Haven't watched the video yet, just want to clarify. But when it comes to Tekken Tag 2, I see it as the ultimate example of a Fighting Game failing at competitive but because an astronomically better casual experience. It has that same energy as Tekken 4 or Soul Calibur 3 where it felt truly FREE when you were playing whereas afterwards they started dialing back hard on the creativity and new features. I love TT2, don't care what anyone says. Feels like a game hated mostly for the wrong reasons a lot of the time. Also, because I know it will come up, a lot of the issue WAS the marketing. Just from personal experience, I didn't even know the game existed until I found tournament gameplay of it. Many of my friends who hardcore stan Tekken didn't either or assumed it was something like Death By Degrees (weird considering TT1 was a thing, I know). People tend to conflate the modern Tekken era with the 2000-2015 era and that's not really the case at all, Bandai Namco used to suck at marketing in general. I mean I had to find out about SCV through Maximillian Dood's channel. Edit: Called it. Also, just to add on my criticisms which might wind up being an expanding list: 1. "Tekken 7 has worse marketing" EXCUSE me? Bro, I saw ALL of Tekken 7's marketing. This isn't even a debate. Early 2010's was mired by companies not fully grasping the power of online marketing and Tekken was ONE of those companies undervaluing it. By Tekken 7 they were making sure EVERY big reveal was advertised all over RUclips and streamers were basically doing free advertising. Absolute nonsense. 2. "Too many characters" now THIS is a hoax. Once again, anyone who played this game knows you could just pick one character. Did it suck? Yeah, you probably got bodied more often than not but you still stood a good chance at winning. 3. People exaggerate the living daylights out of how "hard" TT2 was to learn. We are talking about a game with a majority of legacy characters and a good portion of them were clones/variants. The only characters any oldschool players had to learn were new ones otherwise they were just updated versions of old kits. I actually had to edit this point twice just because I wasn't prepared for how adamant he would be about it. Straight up, I was a BEGINNER at Tekken when I went into Tag 2, if you thought that was too hard of a Tekken game as a veteran then I literally don't know what to say but "Git gud". Literally that. Get better. For christ's sake, you are selling yourself under the bridge by trying to make that point, ESPECIALLY when talking to people that play other Fighting Games. A lot of the things he's complaining about were incredibly CONTEMPORARY to Fighting Games of that period or otherwise BECAME things in Tekken 7 that no one complained about. Tekken 7 was a harder game and had introduced many new system mechanics yet no one batted an eye. This point literally makes no f&$%'n sense. 4. Bringing Aris into the argument is just weak sauce energy. Oh no, an Appeal to Authority argument, whatever are we gonna do? Oh. Right, I don't care about what Aris has to say on the matter because (drum roll) randos who happen to be good at Fighting Games are not a monolith. His opinion matters about as much as yours, mine or Mikes at the end of the day, he is not some ascended being with intelligence beyond our comprehension. He is just a guy who didn't like Tag 2. By clinging to him and saying "If you think I'm wrong, then look at Aris, HE agrees with me", all you are actually saying is "This guy agrees with me. Bow down to his STATUS". 5. Okay, dear Tekken Players, your game was NOT mainstream before Tekken 7. Sure. It existed and was renowned amongst its community, but generally it was considered a "gentleman's fighting game" among the FGC and was respected as a less appreciated but incredibly solid franchise. People knew about it for sure but it wasn't Street Fighter. It wasn't Marvel Vs. Capcom 3. It wasn't Mortal Kombat. Tekken 7 was the game where they deliberately marketed towards outsiders and pulled it a huge new audience. This revisionist history some Tekken players use is a fiction. You know what it took to ACHIEVE that boom? It took Street Fighter 5 launching like garbage. This isn't rocket science, the BIGGEST player stumbled and Tekken seized an opportunity. 6. "Imagine dealing with Jinpachi in Heat." I'd rather not for more reasons than one...
I loved tag 2 and didn’t that bring us the Jukebox or am I wrong? Also, did it include arcade versions of the former Tekken games or was that T6? Hated fighting single character players. Insane damage haha. My AK/Ancient Ogre team meant everything to me. Fingers crossed for Ogre in season 2.
I never felt it was bad it was wild tbh. It suffered from being super chaotic but you know what that's fine to have one title like that. Overall tekken is a great series though. 6, 7 & 8 are just chefs kiss
All this proves is how people cherry pick opinions to lean on to support what they themselves already believe. For every negative commentary piece you can probably find 2 positive ones on the same topic and it could keep going back n forth smh . A lot of those points are totally contradictory to what makes fighting games great. Robust , complex systems to dive into and continuously find new things even 5 years into its life etc. nobody wants a fighter where everyone has posted the meta and the game is figured out in a few days ….. nobody wants that More important than anything else is ppl want it to be fun and then balanced enough to still allow creative expressions
Your comment makes sense. Game to simple = for babies = game is bad. Game too complex = game is too hard = game is bad. People are always complaining and finding excuses to justify their dislike. I think the problem with Tag 2 probably was the time of release, exclusivity and not being digitally available worldwide with good online. If Tekken Tag 2 was release after 7 on PS and on Steam with good online it would be more appreciated, imo.
@ I agree with you. Timing, marketing And social presence are everything these days. If you are failing at 2 of these things then as a dev don’t expect positive results. The industry on both ends needs to fix. 2 major things. The respect publishers have for consumers and lack there of And Consumers need to unify against anti-consumer practices from the least shady to the most shady of them. (Issue is a lot of the more important issues don’t get vocalized and instead something minor does so then the dev fixes that and ignores more pressing issues just so they can still make claims that they “listen” or have taken any form of positive action that leans towards positive consumer response.
I loved tag 2 I use to play it with my friends a lot on my 360 and yes used every character while playing it, I loved every second of it, some of the tag teams I used were Jun & unknown, Bob & Bruce, mokujin & combot and Jin & devil jin to name a few, the game wasn't that complex there was a dedicated training mode for tag 2 to learn how to play the game
At the time Tag 2 was the new Tekken. We all loved and played it nonstop. Not one person called it a bad game. One version even had Nintendo characters in it. Tekken Tag 2 was very popular
I don't have much to say about this other than I was a kid when Tag 2 came out and it definitely introduced tekken to me. I was a Jun main btw I thought she was pretty. Aside from that I just wanted to drop a thank you for being a rare youtuber that actually engages with their community.
Moonsault another creator that started off strong and then I had to unfollow lol . Man’s is wild saying tekken tag 2 failed due to the roster lmao not at all.
I unsubbed too. He's either FOS💩 or just doesn't know any better. Moreover, he's mains Yoshi, but will talk trash about ppl that use lower tier character s. SMH
Tekken Tag 2 almost destroyed the series due to the low sell count. It's literally the same thing as Kameo system in Mortal Kombat 1- an utter failure. And we don't need another fail to happen.
I honestly believe if the PlayStation three was backwards compatible with the PlayStation four, people would've stuck with tag two until T7 came out. I personally stopped playing tag two, because I couldn't be bothered swapping over wires from my PS4 to my PS3.
It's most likely he'll respond to this in his next stream and walk everything back by saying he's joking and you're taking him too seriously, then delete the stream, declare victory and sweep everything under the rug like it never happened, because optics. He did this with Dee All the Way G not too long ago when he called him out on his mistakes.
Tekken Tag 2 wasn't the problem, but I would say it was due to fighting games at the time having a bad stigmata because of one certain fighting game had a severe fuck up when having the DLC locked on the disc due to a mistake on the Japanese division not wanting to listen to the USA branch when warning them about the mistake. Hell I would say Tekken Tag 2 was maybe the most Tekken game out of the bunch due to having almost everyone being playable. Shame a lot didn't want to give it a running chance, but damn I'd be glad that I was able to play the hell out of it when I had it on PS3 back in the day.
I played TT2 and it didn't fail because of it's roster it failed because of it's lazy design and bad marketing choices like are we seriously going to keep brushing the 30 dollar online pass????
Oddly enough I like fighting Jin and yoshi in T8. They were definitely made easier, but I think they both benefit and suffer a lot from tekkens design philosophy like when you fight a tekken 8 player with Jin is just going Unga bunga monkey brain it's a brain melting match up. The thing is Jin from T7 is still in there, he's just not necessary. When I fight someone trying to play tekken and not just trying to play tekken 8 ranked( and there is a stark difference) Jin is one of my favorite match ups. Honestly a lot of good well designed characters get lost in the shuffle of tekken 8s game design. Like Lee and Steve as well.
It failed because 1. Fighting games were still a niche thing 2. You had to learn 2 characters in an already difficult game to learn. the 1 char thing felt like a meme honestly.
I remember well that many people, including the ones within the pro European community at the time, hated Tekken 6. There were some idiotic reasons for it(graphics being shit, it not being a PS exclusive anymore, the resolution, etc.) to others that were way more to the point(Alisa, Lars, Bob, combos going crazy with the bound system, the rage system, etc.). I stopped going to tournaments back then. Many decided that if the next game would not change its formula considerably they would not go back, on top of it 2d fighters were in their resurgence so they were pushed by critics and the bad marketing/support from Namco did the rest. Older players were tired and there was no generational swap. Do you guys remember that there was an entire online mode that was cancelled straight after launch because it was too expensive? There was no official e-sports tournament circuit and they never supported the game with balance patches, so why would someone buy a dead game that's been abandoned by their own creators? If it was supported just a mere 10% of what T7 did get it would have been a completely different history.
I only ever played TTT part one on the ps2 and it was AWESOME. Not really a Tekken player but jeez that game was exactly what I needed at that time and it felt SO polished. I should go pick up pt 2 now that I think about it.
Honestly think moonsaults take on this is bad all round. Tag 2 is not a bad game. It's a game where I think the damage was too high, it systems were pretty dense and the tag mechanics were over tuned I think, but the games bones are solid. It's not a bad game. Tekken 7 is the best marketed game in the series I remember the trailers dropping for that game. They leaned heavy into the emotion of Heihachi and Kazumi, and when we found out akuma as not just a guest character, but a guest character with story significants (don't think that holds up in hindsight but at the time definitely helped for marketing). The issue with tag 2 is that it's a very dense and deep game which made it very hard to get into. Tag fighters are inherently more work to learn due to learning more characters and match ups and learn how each of your character has to function in each match up in on the fly situations. They are inherently fast volitie games, thats why their so hype to watch. To balance how much there is to learn in tag games, it's the reason why the move sets are more basic you don't see the same motion inputs in marvel than you do in SF. Kof gets to have more complex motion inputs as a multi character fighter due to the fact that there are (usually) no tag mechanics so although you have to learn 3 characters and how each one functions in each match up its not as chaotic because it's closer to street fighter than it is marvel. Tekken is one of the most complex fighting games because the options at your disposal are vastly greater than any 2d fighter on the market. And tag 2 doubles that and adds a tag system and I believe changed how the bound mechanic works. It's why tekkens execution floor is much lower in general.
Tbh thanks to tag 2 i was able to learn tekken 8's mechanic way faster trough Jun. Jun's movessets and fighting styles where pretty much the same as in tag 2 but with more stance moves, and some moves of her got some diffrent button layout and some moves Jun got it from Unknown like those light beams. In the beginning i was pretty shocked that i got her muscle memory and still till this day was able to use some old combos i used to do back in the day❤🔥👌🏾. Ps. My button layout never changes till tekken 8(just what used to be the tag button is now my heat button👌🏾🔥)
My homeboy just got me a ps3 because someone one was giving it away & I can’t Freaking wait to buy & Play Tag 2 & T6 all over again, as well as Tekken 6 Scenario campaign mode If you guys truly knew how to play Scenario Campaign mode, then you’d understand how fun it truly was I just wish that the devs Updated the balancing of Tag 2 regularly like how they did in T7 & T8KKEN
it seems that slayer was likely Trolling during the whole video, in fact tag 2 did something right that even 8 & 7 couldn't do which is making a decent storyline between jun and jinpachi which was already an incredible attempt, besides for young heihachi which didn't make any sense as it's was based on his boss version from the original ps1 games, it should of had 2 separate Heihachi which one being the older version who could of carried it better.
"As long as I have my character, there is no need for more" Tekken players, I never understood the logic in saying a game is bad because there is too much characters on the roster, I guess the individuals wouldn't mind seeing the same characters over and over in ranks, lmao.
In terms of sales both tag games didn't do well which sucks. One was a ps2 launch title and the other was released at a bad time. There's plenty of offline content and things to do on both games through plus Tag2 released on Wii as well. From a casual perspective i can see how a roster with a large move list, crazy damage and not knowing whats going on (mechanics) can be daunting. Initally before i got into the FGC i was a casual and was hard to understand what was going on sometimes. From what i heard on the competitive side, balancing was the main issue. I don't remember the last time it was even a main game at a major, primarily a side game. Perhaps hard to retain an audience too? Seemed T7 was fun and easy to watch/understand. At the end of the day everyone has their favorite tekken game i rather namco release a collection to let supporters do the talking.
1. Not sure that Smash is a fair comparison since characters rhere don't sidestep nor have 100+ moves each. That adds level of complexity. 2. I game should be first of all fun to play. If I still was back home with my friends who i played tekken with TTT2 would be the most fun ever. 3. Competitive players don't even buy dlc or games themselves. Plus at that time it came out there was no such marketing machine through content creators or toirnament players. 4. I really doubt they will releasy any legacy tekken game with online component. They don't want to decide the playerbase + T8 where money is made in micro transactions.
If that was a legit problem like the roster size then that was at the bottom of the list my biggest problem was damage output was insane counter hit back 1 4 combo with capo could clear entire health bar. Solo Paul’s was crazy with rage damage. But the game just came out at a bad time and tbh they didn’t advertise it enough. Tag 2 def took way more skill to play imo. Your defense had to be on point.
Tekken 7 had great marketing and it’s not even funny. They were really smart with the marketing for Tekken 7. It was everywhere. But one thing I can say is Tekken Tag 2 is universally hated next to revolution tbh. I love them both in my opinion
hello mike and will you be posting lots of videos on the midnight rubbish channel this year and be more consistent in the future on that youtube channel
People complain about too many characters then they cut the roster and they complain that the niche characters aren’t there 🤷 tag 2 was fun imo. Also more people got more into gaming during lockdowns so that helped.
Hey Mike I hear what your saying but i don't know if its fair to compare smash bros to Tekken on Roster size, In Tekken because of the amount of moves there is a much larger degree of randomness happening, so the matchup knowledge is far greater than any other fighting game. Whilst smash has a lot of characters I feel matchup knowledge is still far easier because of that fact. However that being said I agree with you. I don't think having more characters ruins a game, I think it makes the game more fun imo.
Tag 2 failed due to timing only, it’s the Third Strike of the series.. Also it’s easily the best game for casuals. The most fun mode to play with friends is without a doubt TEAM BATTLE
9:39 tekken movelist is far more complex and bigger then smash, kazuya was toned down in that regard when he got in ultimate, both execution and number of moves So if you were to play him in smash and tekken, former is way easier then latter and same goes for the other fighting game characters whom got in, easier to use and not as many moves as original, let slome execution
Tag 2 was considered the worst Tekken? Thats news to me. I thought Tekken Revolution held that title lol
In term of sales
According to TMM ttt2 is the worst
@auroranamex5886 the FGC community absolutely hated the game purely on a balance level
i mean you ask ANYBODY to fight two capos at once and it'll be the worst by default
Tag2, in the end, boiling down to bob/thin bob vs thin bob/bob mirror matches. Maybe Brian slips in there if Knee is playing.
Casuals make up the overwhelming majority of the sales. To understand why it didn't do well you need to look at it from the eyes of actual casuals who boot it up once in a while to mess around with friends, not someone who actually plays it every day and tries to get good at it.
Casuals don't care about having to learn characters or matchups.
As a casual back then, more characters was a huge plus for me. The more, the merrier.
As you said, what hurt the game were stuff like when it came out and the other games it was competing with.
Casuals usually only buy one or two games of each genre per console.
So, why buy tag2 when you already bought Tekken 6 which had just released only 2-3 years ago on (the same) console?
Why buy tag2 when x-other (fighting) game was out at the same time? There were a LOT of (fighting) games during the early 2010's.
I personally remember as a casual teen debating whether I should get SFxT or Tag2.
Tag 2 really came out at the wrong time and place.
Also, the single player content in tag 2 was less interesting for a casual compared to tekken 6 which had a beat'emup campaign mode, and definitely less interesting compared to what some other fighting games were offering at the time.
Because Tekken was Tekken and people played Tag for that team-up. Or if you played solo, to tackle it with different mixes. I knew Street Fighter X Tekken was going to be bad just form looking at it. Cool trailers, but I didn't see much on how it was going to be pulled off with how different they played.
I was also debating whether I should get SFXT or Tag 2 at the time, in fact I was so indecisive that I legit phoned my older bros just to ask them which one I should get, & I just decided to get Tag 2!
The Tag 2 slander breaks my heart. It was a really fun game and it made me realize how deep Tekken can get. I found most of my fav Tekken creators through that game. Also alot of fighting games not named Street Fighter IV, didn't do that great during that time. 7 and 8 are great as well, but let's not forget the developers' love letter to the series
Tag Team 2 is what really made me a Tekken fan. It's sad that this game didn't do well
it made me one too.
Tag 2 has some of the best stages... music customizatin extras of any Tekken game.
I remember before T7's release JDCR said in an interview that TTT2 was 5yrs at that point, but we the players still needed 5 more years to master it. Meaning it was hella difficult
Copy and paste of what i wrote on his video
"Moonsault Stop parroting OTHER peoples opinions as THIS WAS NOT YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THE GAME by YOUR OWN ADMISSION
Tekken Tag 2 was a "commercial failure" NOT a failure of a Tekken Game
Please Overrate Tekken 7 due to its E-Sports success ( Tekken 7 benefited from things Tag 2 just did not)
1) Tag 2 released at the end of 7th gen consoles - 8th gen consoles had streaming out the box and uploading clips was easily done
So it could NOT take advantage of over saturation of Clips being uploaded and could not take advantage of multiple people streaming
2) Tag 2 did NOT have a world tour - No world tour to PROMOTE/MARKET the game or create interesting storylines
3) Tag 2 did NOT have season updates as this was NOT a thing yet in the 7th gen consoles
4) Tag 2 did NOT have DLC guest Characters
5) Tag 2 did NOT have a PC release
6) Tag 2 released at a time SF4 and Marvel both were still popular
Tekken 7 released at a time SF5 was not as popular as 4 and MCI was dead - so T7 had LESS competition
7) Finally Community FIGUREHEADS/Influencers KILLING THE GAME (TMMSWE, Aris, RIP, MYK ect to name a few) TMMSWE being the most popular one - UNFORTUNATELY if you are popular as a FGC figurehead or pro player YOUR OPINION "MATTERS MORE" to the casuals or easily impressionable…If you have a high level of influence you can positively and negatively impact your game with your opinions - MAXIMILLIONDOOD does a great job of having his opinions but not CRAPPING on a game he does not like he is responsible with how he presents information….. (Bronson Tran agrees with ME as MYK recalled, how Bronson said SoCal killing tekken tag 2 with the negativity paraphrasing ARIS, RIP ect on there podcast - if i can find it again on RIPs channel i will post it here was a few years ago
Tag 2 is a superior game than Tekken 7
Tekken 7 was just the better "E-Sport"
Good post, thanks for sharing it here as I probably won't watch Moon's video this time around. He's not a bad content creator but he's young and frequently parrots opinions about older things and ends up unintentionally perpetuating myths.
TTT2 went up against SF4 and its many updates when TTT2 only had 1 DLC pack. I think people forgot how big SF4 was.
“The game didn’t do well because it went up against a better game”
TTT2 is the offshoot game, not the mainline. It still played better than SF4. I'm also biased, I don't like any of the psuedo 3D Street Fighters.
@@blumiu2426 biased is one thing, but if you think TTT2 played better than SF4, you're just a straight up moron.
Tag 2 was a nightmare to play online, it was basically a game of whi got launched first and making sure that you don't die in two seconds from an incorrect switch. Everyone did too much damage and the shenanigans with the tag combos were way too much to truly enjoy it in ranked. It was ok for casual matches but it was abysmal balance wise in ranked.
Yet thats the state of tekken 8 now, one launch and you basically lose.
You get one combo, bring them to the wall, activate heat, force a 50/50 and your opponents basically dead if they guess wrong.
At least in tekken tag 2 the game was more enjoyable, tekken 8 is just a frustrating experience.
This I played it again yesterday and it’s still as frustrating as ever. Anyone you speak fondly about the game forgot how the online really played.
@@henrynguyen4315TEKKEN 8 is far more enjoyable especially thanks to the grey hp mechanic meaning if you got great fundamentals you can comeback easily.
@@Crimsongz everything that was frustrating in tag 2 is in t8 now.
The heat burst is basically the t8 version of tag 2s tag assault system to extend combos which usually leads to a complete wall carry and absurd damage. So basically everything you hated about tag2 basically exist in t8.
@@henrynguyen4315 I went from Tag 2 to Tekken 8 yesterday and had way more fun with the latter lmao. Tag 2 is just an annoying mess and the movement is stiff. I main both Steve and Bryan so no random braindead character.
I still have the strategy guide from Tekken Tag 2. I learned about Aris, Rip, Anakin and some other pro-players using those old game guides😊
Tag 2 is my favourite fighter on the PS3 to this day. I still play it occasionally, Tag 2 Kazuya feels much better than 7. He can transform into devil at any point during the fight.
Never got into tag 2. It seems like a nightmare to get into.
It's really not. Just an extra button for tagging lol
It was probably the worst online experience. Get launched once? That's 120-140 damage right there with a tag combo. Didn't switch to your other character properly? Welp you just lost that round. That game was a balancing nightmare.
T8 is harder imo in term of mechanics since it has too many of them, like I'm still to this day struggle to remember to use heat while being too focused on small Tekken. In Tag2, all you had on top of T6 was a tag button and that was it, or maybe you just tagged out your beaten up character so they could recover their lost health but overall that was it. In T8, you have two entire mechanics related to health only which is too much imo. But in term of matchup, there lied Tag2's true difficulty
@@angryassyrian5627 yeah ive seen that. Seemed like overextending once get you killed
@@Noum77 Yeah i can live without heat.
common moonslopslayer L
If I had to describe the time of Tag 2. Esports and updates were rising, Tag 2 didn't really have much of that outside of the arcade scenes. The two biggest Tag 2 bashers TMM and Aris were going through rough times from heart break to smoking addictions. Street Fighter 4 was pretty much the fighting game king, which had updates and esports presence. Other games were just more interesting than fighting games at the time. All on top of the bad marketing, you'd understand why Tag 2 didn't do so well then. As for complexity and roster, they'll complain either way whether it's too easy, or not enough characters. But I have to say, a long time pro or enthusiast tekken player complaining about fighting or playing characters that hasn't changed much in since Tekken 5 doesn't make much sense. That's definitely a problem with the player, not the game.
I'm glad to hear TTT2 is getting love. Honestly TTT2 was a great game!
I always loved tag 2. That was the game I always played with my older cousins who smoked me every time but it was still fun. I always thought others shared a high opinion of it too
Tekken tag team 2 days was so much fun. I miss those days.
As a little kid and a casual tekken 6 and tag 2 to this day are special to me , being able to to play anyone and customize was alluring to me at a young age
When he said it was too complicated so just spammed unblockables, that sent me. he sounded like my little nephew
The biggest tragedy of Tag 2 was that Harada and Murray interpreted the failure of the game being due to it being too complex for beginners and casuals, when the reality was that fighting games at the time just weren’t hot property. When it came to casual experiences, shooters like COD ajd battlefield and sports games like FIFA and 2k were in their primes and were the superior live service gaming product in terms of content and netcode (until GTA came out the following year). Tag 2 in my opinion was a victim of timing, pretty poor balancing and a lack of post-launch support from BNE
Not having a PC release is one of the main problem with tag 2 imo
Tag2 was a good game that came at the wrong time and limited by platforms
swear they acting like both characters attacking you at the same time like its mk1 assist hard to blockables
After hearing that tag 2 was you're favourite game, I was hoping you'd expand some more on why and hear you speak on the why it wasn't liked, so I'm glad to see this vid pop up
In my opinion more characters means more things to learn and more content and more fun with the game there will be.
Ttt2 has no business having so much detail, their throws, their pair attacks, custom character outros, cg ending for every character, like, whaaaat? Plus the jukebox, the graphics were amazing, the roster was the best.
Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom back then around that time as well was really popular.
Using a solo 🐤🎷Bruce, I had whooped ButlerWave's Lili and Dragunov, so solo characters can be DEADLY in TEKKEN TAG 2. TEKKEN TAG 2, TEKKEN 6, and TEKKEN 5 are my big 3 favorites of all time.
Keep cooking Mike.
TTT2 was a PHENOMENAL game. Truly phenomenal amd a love letter from Bamco to the fans.
I legit would pay 100 bucks today for a rereleease with rollback netcode if it wver got made
It is true that Tag 2 sold poorly, but saying it's bad is so wrong.
It’s also possible that games like Mortal Kombat (2011), UMvC3, KOF XIII, and SFxT had an impact on Tekken Tag 2 not being as successful. I’m not saying Tag 2 is terrible, just that the other games had an impact too.
Kof 13 and sfxt didn’t do well either
@@JosiahGoffri I realize that, but having so many options can sometimes still affect people's decision-making.
@ true and capcom had Too learn that the hard way by releasing to many fighting games
Tekken Tag 2 had flaws but it was still a very fun time. There was a wealth of variety in the game and u weren't forced to play tag team battles. Anna's octopus 🐙 outfit put Yoshimitsu to shame❣️😋
This is my last comment. I promise. I remember when i was playing Tekken Tag 2 and I remember STREET FIGHTER X TEKKEN being advertised and released during that time. I also remember Mortal Kombat 9 being out around that time. I am pretty sure that Namco promoting the crossover title took a lot out of Tag 2's promotional budget.
Tag 2 was the tekken game that made me want to actually get good at tekken. At the time I had no idea it wasn't doing well and would've never guessed because it was so epic and fun.
Idk why people say tag 2 had bad marketing, if anything it was the most marketed tekken game ever? snoop dogg stage, song and music video, a live action short, a music remix contest, live DJ concerts by Ajurika with Tekken ost...t7 is what barely had any marketing yet sold incredibly well
i think tag 2 failed simply because of the time it came out. 2009-2012 was basically when everyone and their grandma only played call of duty and nothing else. most casuals who bought older tekken games to play offline for fun or with friends didn't give a f about any other games during that era, i remember all my school friends not caring anymore about dragon ball games, Tekken games, assassins creed games, gta iv etc... GTA V in 2013 and some sony originals like Last of Us, and PS4 on the way snapped normies out of the CoD craze of 2009-2012
Street fighter was doing just fine along with MK. I don't think the gaming market at the time had anything to do with it.
@@TooSweaty7 the only new big SF game to come out in that era was SFxTK which capcom said publicly fell short of their sales goal. mortal kombat 9 was liked by people who played it but idk how it sold compared to previous and later MK games
@@TooSweaty7It might not have been the defining factor but it did play a part. I think people underestimate how different the industry was at that time
@SolidSnake240 I like to view those as the mainstream trends of the time. Current day, we have battle passes and live service games. Which, without a doubt, has helped and hurt fighting games. TT2 was barely talked about after the announcement. I remember thinking it was a rumor for a while. TxSf had more buzz for a sec lol
A little anecdote, I had a Summer job back in 2012. I heard almost NOTHING about Tag 2 and only really knew that it just existed, and as a Tekken fan, I had to have it. When I wasn't playing Tag 2, I was playing Soul Cal 5. The roster was not the issue in Tag 2, since people, casual or otherwise, knew how their favorite characters more or less worked, so having to learn another moveset on the fly wasn't too difficult, but to combo them together was the real hard part.
Dude i used to make beats and put my shitty beats into Tag 2 lolll man i remember those days
Tag 2's biggest issue honestly is kind of luck, it couldn't get casuals, or at least not many of em, so only the competitive community played it, and watching how the competitive community tends to act even just in t8, that's basically a recipe for your own demise.
Frankly content wise, graphically(in relation to it's time) and costumization wise, it's probably the best tekken game.......ever, yes the balancing was out of place, sure, but that's why it got unlucky, if it had a better chance to get casual players, the balancing wouldn't have mattered at all, and mk9, t5, t3 are a proof of that, plus I'm pretty sure patches were a thing at that time as well, but I can be wrong, but still balancing matters only to a certain extend.
The roster is big, ye there are redundant characters, but for most people it's about what they see, not what there is, so yeah the size played a part in why it flopped, but at the same time it could've played a part to make it one of the best games in the series, if it captured casuals, cause honestly, what casual would say no to more content? other than competitive players, and I'm not saying competitive players are bad thing, but they're certainly not the ones who keep a game alive, like t4 wasn't the best game, but it was still good and many tekken players remember it to be great, but the competitive players just gone back to tag 1.
Competive players are veeery picky, especially back in the day where big tournament prizes or just big tournaments in general weren't a thing, it's like "is the game more unbalanced or has something I don't like that is not present in the game before? I'll play the game before" that's basically competitive players, at least at the time, cause now thanks to tournaments and stuff, people tend to stick to a game, unless the prizes are too low for a game that sucks too much, but tournaments were not really a thing during tag 2.
I really loved TT2, think it's the best in the series. I'm also an offline only player though.
nah this a dumb take tag 2 didn't fail because of its roster, smash ultimate has almost double tag 2 rooster size and it outsold every other smash game. Other games with massive roosters that still have a casual playerbase like league of legends like dota 2, like smite, all these games have massive roosters of characters and its not a deterrent.
tag 2 release in a down period for tekken, fighting games as a whole where in a down period and only recently started picking back up wit sf4. T6 sold 3.5 mil while T5 sold around 6 mil, and tag 2 sold 1.5 mil. T7 sold around 3 mil in its first year and what did 7 have? Actual fucking advertising, between goose, Noctis, and having a great sets at evo to build hype. Tag 2 failing has alot less to do with the "rooster" and a lot more to do with fighting games being in a down period and Bamco not advertising the game, even as a whole how fighting games handle its advertising now is insanely different. Bombastic character reveals just weren't often. i didnt have some raspy voiced lady screaming my mains name in an odd way to get me hype.
let's not forget Tekken 7 was the firs game in the series that was widely available for digital download
As someone who used to play t6 as a button masher with Baek back in day, honestly lack of accessibility on other platforms (I still play t6 on mobile sometimes due to psp port) and lack of single player modes was what never got me to play it other than occassionally with my friends on arcade where each of use control one character and we decide who would deal with who. From my perspective switch mentally to deal with different character mid match is a lot more daunting like in T8 i can get what the person tries to do after 2 rounds but then a character switch suddenly changing the playstyle in match just sounds intimidating for me as someone who properly started learning tekken from T7 and only occassionally plays tt2 extremely casually with friends
The average casual isn’t going into a fighting game thinking “ oh boy! I can’t wait to learn the frames on all 25+ characters moves! “.. they boot up a fighting game and go “ oh wow I have 35-40 characters to pick from, this guy or girl looks cool. Let’s see how they play. “
I guarantee most of us here who now care about frame data, execution difficulty and all that BS had the exact same reaction when first being introduced to fighting games.
Pro Players after while, typically become jaded about certain things because they force themselves to make learning the game their lively hood. So they have to learn the frames on 60 characters because they need to know it in order to win, make money and pay the bills.
It's kind of hard to get behind Moonsault Slayers points when he plays one of the 5 most powerful characters in the game. Characters like Jin and Yoshimitsu both had low win rates in past games but are much stronger in Tekken 8 and have higher win rates as a result. That doesn't mean that players got better but the characters certainly became easier.
I disagree with moonsalut too in this video, but your reason is really weird. He has been playing yoshimitsu for years as far as I know and also why does it matter what character he plays when he is talking about a different tekken game anyway?
@danotoo96 I was referring to the win rates in past games. Jin and Yoshi are higher in the win rates in Tekken 8 but both characters are much stronger than the last game. The win rates for each were lower in Tekken 7. The characters are easier to play so the win rates have significantly improved as a result.
@demetricsmith471 ok, I think I understand what you meant a bit better now. Yes, both these characters got way more accessible and can be played effectively a lot easier. Tbh, I wasn't in that part of the video yet, and your first comment sounded like you were saying moonsaults opinion was irrelevant for no other reason than using yoshimitsu.
Fighting games back then is similar to what gym culture and hell even anime was, a small niche.
Back then, it wasn't popular playing fighting games and only became so imo around 2014 (Tekken 7 era). Mainly bc back then, you didn't have all these platforms where you could record, post, gain a following, make money etc. similar to gym culture imo. Gym culture in 2010-2016 isn't anything like it is now even in terms of what it took to be an influencer.
Hell guys like Lil Majin and MainMan were so far under the radar unless you really followed competitive gaming. I used to play against MainMan on Tag 2 ranked and in lobbies a ton back then and never knew who he was until a college classmate told me. By then, he was just some guy who had a sick Kaz/Armor King team and I dread facing him on a Promo/Demo match 😂
Snoop Dogg around that time was still a marketing guru. TTT2 didn’t sell well because fighting games weren’t doing too well around that time. Fighting games started doing better in the PS4 era. Moonsault was also right that T7’s marketing was worse than TTT2. No Tekken game on the PS4 increased the demand for a new one.
I knew the Aris video would come up sooner or later 🤣🤣
Btw what fighting game is the hardest in the history of the genre, Virtua Fighter 5, TTT2 or KOF13?
I loved tekken tag 2 roster was crazy imo. Also nice choice in background music 😎 Naruto storm games never disappoint
Imagine TTT3. You return to T7's style i.e. no Heat, not all those forced 50/50s. Take out the guests. Put in the missing legacy characters. It would be insane. As some who loves playing the full roster it would be beyond hype. Kat riding on Gigas shoulders? Jack-8 and Gigas overkilling some fool back and forth? Let me decipher that codex man.
The prospect of teams you might only ever see one time with completely unique combos would provide such incredible scope for creativity.
Tekken 7 isn't classic Tekken in the slightest so to "return" to Tekken 7 means nothing. It's where the modern garbage actually started with the supers.
this sad ass naruto vs sasuke music got me in my feels bruh, how tf im supposed to pay attention to the video lmao
TTT2 was the last true Tekken to me
Same here
You know, maybe it's just me, but I really never had any problems playing Tag 2 competitively. In fact, I literally did better in Tag 2 in any other Tekken game. I just found two characters who I enjoyed, found synergy (which actually makes Tag 2 way more fun when you find how to make your team work well together). I played Jinpachi/Wang and had a damn blast. Also ran Jaycee/Ganryu because they wierdly had great chemistry as a team. Tag 2 was a great game
Tag 2 was underrated but the core community knew what it was, tag 2 did have a lot of characters simply off the switch mode because I'd say it's 59×59 character combinations
Tag 2 seemed like a game that came out at a bad time. Back then I did not play fighters so idk the details but the only one I remember back then was sf4
Haven't watched the video yet, just want to clarify.
But when it comes to Tekken Tag 2, I see it as the ultimate example of a Fighting Game failing at competitive but because an astronomically better casual experience. It has that same energy as Tekken 4 or Soul Calibur 3 where it felt truly FREE when you were playing whereas afterwards they started dialing back hard on the creativity and new features.
I love TT2, don't care what anyone says. Feels like a game hated mostly for the wrong reasons a lot of the time.
Also, because I know it will come up, a lot of the issue WAS the marketing.
Just from personal experience, I didn't even know the game existed until I found tournament gameplay of it. Many of my friends who hardcore stan Tekken didn't either or assumed it was something like Death By Degrees (weird considering TT1 was a thing, I know). People tend to conflate the modern Tekken era with the 2000-2015 era and that's not really the case at all, Bandai Namco used to suck at marketing in general. I mean I had to find out about SCV through Maximillian Dood's channel.
Edit:
Called it.
Also, just to add on my criticisms which might wind up being an expanding list:
1. "Tekken 7 has worse marketing" EXCUSE me? Bro, I saw ALL of Tekken 7's marketing. This isn't even a debate. Early 2010's was mired by companies not fully grasping the power of online marketing and Tekken was ONE of those companies undervaluing it. By Tekken 7 they were making sure EVERY big reveal was advertised all over RUclips and streamers were basically doing free advertising. Absolute nonsense.
2. "Too many characters" now THIS is a hoax. Once again, anyone who played this game knows you could just pick one character. Did it suck? Yeah, you probably got bodied more often than not but you still stood a good chance at winning.
3. People exaggerate the living daylights out of how "hard" TT2 was to learn. We are talking about a game with a majority of legacy characters and a good portion of them were clones/variants. The only characters any oldschool players had to learn were new ones otherwise they were just updated versions of old kits. I actually had to edit this point twice just because I wasn't prepared for how adamant he would be about it. Straight up, I was a BEGINNER at Tekken when I went into Tag 2, if you thought that was too hard of a Tekken game as a veteran then I literally don't know what to say but "Git gud". Literally that. Get better. For christ's sake, you are selling yourself under the bridge by trying to make that point, ESPECIALLY when talking to people that play other Fighting Games. A lot of the things he's complaining about were incredibly CONTEMPORARY to Fighting Games of that period or otherwise BECAME things in Tekken 7 that no one complained about. Tekken 7 was a harder game and had introduced many new system mechanics yet no one batted an eye. This point literally makes no f&$%'n sense.
4. Bringing Aris into the argument is just weak sauce energy. Oh no, an Appeal to Authority argument, whatever are we gonna do? Oh. Right, I don't care about what Aris has to say on the matter because (drum roll) randos who happen to be good at Fighting Games are not a monolith. His opinion matters about as much as yours, mine or Mikes at the end of the day, he is not some ascended being with intelligence beyond our comprehension. He is just a guy who didn't like Tag 2. By clinging to him and saying "If you think I'm wrong, then look at Aris, HE agrees with me", all you are actually saying is "This guy agrees with me. Bow down to his STATUS".
5. Okay, dear Tekken Players, your game was NOT mainstream before Tekken 7. Sure. It existed and was renowned amongst its community, but generally it was considered a "gentleman's fighting game" among the FGC and was respected as a less appreciated but incredibly solid franchise. People knew about it for sure but it wasn't Street Fighter. It wasn't Marvel Vs. Capcom 3. It wasn't Mortal Kombat. Tekken 7 was the game where they deliberately marketed towards outsiders and pulled it a huge new audience. This revisionist history some Tekken players use is a fiction. You know what it took to ACHIEVE that boom? It took Street Fighter 5 launching like garbage. This isn't rocket science, the BIGGEST player stumbled and Tekken seized an opportunity.
6. "Imagine dealing with Jinpachi in Heat." I'd rather not for more reasons than one...
I loved tag 2 and didn’t that bring us the Jukebox or am I wrong? Also, did it include arcade versions of the former Tekken games or was that T6?
Hated fighting single character players. Insane damage haha. My AK/Ancient Ogre team meant everything to me. Fingers crossed for Ogre in season 2.
I never felt it was bad it was wild tbh. It suffered from being super chaotic but you know what that's fine to have one title like that. Overall tekken is a great series though. 6, 7 & 8 are just chefs kiss
All this proves is how people cherry pick opinions to lean on to support what they themselves already believe. For every negative commentary piece you can probably find 2 positive ones on the same topic and it could keep going back n forth smh .
A lot of those points are totally contradictory to what makes fighting games great. Robust , complex systems to dive into and continuously find new things even 5 years into its life etc. nobody wants a fighter where everyone has posted the meta and the game is figured out in a few days ….. nobody wants that
More important than anything else is ppl want it to be fun and then balanced enough to still allow creative expressions
Your comment makes sense. Game to simple = for babies = game is bad. Game too complex = game is too hard = game is bad. People are always complaining and finding excuses to justify their dislike.
I think the problem with Tag 2 probably was the time of release, exclusivity and not being digitally available worldwide with good online. If Tekken Tag 2 was release after 7 on PS and on Steam with good online it would be more appreciated, imo.
@ I agree with you. Timing, marketing And social presence are everything these days. If you are failing at 2 of these things then as a dev don’t expect positive results.
The industry on both ends needs to fix. 2 major things.
The respect publishers have for consumers and lack there of
And
Consumers need to unify against anti-consumer practices from the least shady to the most shady of them.
(Issue is a lot of the more important issues don’t get vocalized and instead something minor does so then the dev fixes that and ignores more pressing issues just so they can still make claims that they “listen” or have taken any form of positive action that leans towards positive consumer response.
I loved tag 2 I use to play it with my friends a lot on my 360 and yes used every character while playing it, I loved every second of it, some of the tag teams I used were Jun & unknown, Bob & Bruce, mokujin & combot and Jin & devil jin to name a few, the game wasn't that complex there was a dedicated training mode for tag 2 to learn how to play the game
Tekken tag 2 was the best tekken, it was fun!!!
At the time Tag 2 was the new Tekken. We all loved and played it nonstop. Not one person called it a bad game. One version even had Nintendo characters in it. Tekken Tag 2 was very popular
I don't have much to say about this other than I was a kid when Tag 2 came out and it definitely introduced tekken to me. I was a Jun main btw I thought she was pretty.
Aside from that I just wanted to drop a thank you for being a rare youtuber that actually engages with their community.
Moonsault another creator that started off strong and then I had to unfollow lol . Man’s is wild saying tekken tag 2 failed due to the roster lmao not at all.
his age shows when he speaks and how he speaks…..
@ yeaaa I know. I tried to ignore it but lately …. Yea it’s hard to ignore.
Sure he means well. Just doing that true under dawg thing that’s all
TBF it's difficult to always make good points when you upload 10 videos a day
I unsubbed too. He's either FOS💩 or just doesn't know any better. Moreover, he's mains Yoshi, but will talk trash about ppl that use lower tier character s. SMH
@@CkWk78 FOS ?
The marketing for Tekken 7 was bad here in America don't know about other countries
Tekken Tag 2 almost destroyed the series due to the low sell count. It's literally the same thing as Kameo system in Mortal Kombat 1- an utter failure. And we don't need another fail to happen.
I honestly believe if the PlayStation three was backwards compatible with the PlayStation four, people would've stuck with tag two until T7 came out. I personally stopped playing tag two, because I couldn't be bothered swapping over wires from my PS4 to my PS3.
It's most likely he'll respond to this in his next stream and walk everything back by saying he's joking and you're taking him too seriously, then delete the stream, declare victory and sweep everything under the rug like it never happened, because optics.
He did this with Dee All the Way G not too long ago when he called him out on his mistakes.
Tekken Tag 2 wasn't the problem, but I would say it was due to fighting games at the time having a bad stigmata because of one certain fighting game had a severe fuck up when having the DLC locked on the disc due to a mistake on the Japanese division not wanting to listen to the USA branch when warning them about the mistake.
Hell I would say Tekken Tag 2 was maybe the most Tekken game out of the bunch due to having almost everyone being playable. Shame a lot didn't want to give it a running chance, but damn I'd be glad that I was able to play the hell out of it when I had it on PS3 back in the day.
I played TT2 and it didn't fail because of it's roster it failed because of it's lazy design and bad marketing choices like are we seriously going to keep brushing the 30 dollar online pass????
Oddly enough I like fighting Jin and yoshi in T8. They were definitely made easier, but I think they both benefit and suffer a lot from tekkens design philosophy like when you fight a tekken 8 player with Jin is just going Unga bunga monkey brain it's a brain melting match up. The thing is Jin from T7 is still in there, he's just not necessary. When I fight someone trying to play tekken and not just trying to play tekken 8 ranked( and there is a stark difference) Jin is one of my favorite match ups. Honestly a lot of good well designed characters get lost in the shuffle of tekken 8s game design. Like Lee and Steve as well.
I feel like Tag games are for the Tekken vets at the heart of them. We may never see one again lol
Ive learnt a new word today: "revisionist"
😅😅😅
It failed because
1. Fighting games were still a niche thing
2. You had to learn 2 characters in an already difficult game to learn.
the 1 char thing felt like a meme honestly.
TT2 came out post sf4 when fighting games were more popular again
I remember well that many people, including the ones within the pro European community at the time, hated Tekken 6. There were some idiotic reasons for it(graphics being shit, it not being a PS exclusive anymore, the resolution, etc.) to others that were way more to the point(Alisa, Lars, Bob, combos going crazy with the bound system, the rage system, etc.). I stopped going to tournaments back then.
Many decided that if the next game would not change its formula considerably they would not go back, on top of it 2d fighters were in their resurgence so they were pushed by critics and the bad marketing/support from Namco did the rest. Older players were tired and there was no generational swap.
Do you guys remember that there was an entire online mode that was cancelled straight after launch because it was too expensive? There was no official e-sports tournament circuit and they never supported the game with balance patches, so why would someone buy a dead game that's been abandoned by their own creators?
If it was supported just a mere 10% of what T7 did get it would have been a completely different history.
I only ever played TTT part one on the ps2 and it was AWESOME. Not really a Tekken player but jeez that game was exactly what I needed at that time and it felt SO polished. I should go pick up pt 2 now that I think about it.
Honestly think moonsaults take on this is bad all round. Tag 2 is not a bad game. It's a game where I think the damage was too high, it systems were pretty dense and the tag mechanics were over tuned I think, but the games bones are solid. It's not a bad game. Tekken 7 is the best marketed game in the series I remember the trailers dropping for that game. They leaned heavy into the emotion of Heihachi and Kazumi, and when we found out akuma as not just a guest character, but a guest character with story significants (don't think that holds up in hindsight but at the time definitely helped for marketing). The issue with tag 2 is that it's a very dense and deep game which made it very hard to get into. Tag fighters are inherently more work to learn due to learning more characters and match ups and learn how each of your character has to function in each match up in on the fly situations. They are inherently fast volitie games, thats why their so hype to watch. To balance how much there is to learn in tag games, it's the reason why the move sets are more basic you don't see the same motion inputs in marvel than you do in SF. Kof gets to have more complex motion inputs as a multi character fighter due to the fact that there are (usually) no tag mechanics so although you have to learn 3 characters and how each one functions in each match up its not as chaotic because it's closer to street fighter than it is marvel. Tekken is one of the most complex fighting games because the options at your disposal are vastly greater than any 2d fighter on the market. And tag 2 doubles that and adds a tag system and I believe changed how the bound mechanic works. It's why tekkens execution floor is much lower in general.
it wasn't on steam btw
why everyone downplays it
Tbh thanks to tag 2 i was able to learn tekken 8's mechanic way faster trough Jun. Jun's movessets and fighting styles where pretty much the same as in tag 2 but with more stance moves, and some moves of her got some diffrent button layout and some moves Jun got it from Unknown like those light beams.
In the beginning i was pretty shocked that i got her muscle memory and still till this day was able to use some old combos i used to do back in the day❤🔥👌🏾.
Ps. My button layout never changes till tekken 8(just what used to be the tag button is now my heat button👌🏾🔥)
Re: Jin, I completely agree.
They ruined him, and their redesign is a massive portion of why I've stopped playing tekken.
My homeboy just got me a ps3 because someone one was giving it away
& I can’t Freaking wait to buy & Play Tag 2 & T6 all over again, as well as Tekken 6 Scenario campaign mode
If you guys truly knew how to play Scenario Campaign mode, then you’d understand how fun it truly was
I just wish that the devs Updated the balancing of Tag 2 regularly like how they did in T7 & T8KKEN
Mike are you saying Tekken Tag 2 had better music than T6 or better music in general?
it seems that slayer was likely Trolling during the whole video, in fact tag 2 did something right that even 8 & 7 couldn't do which is making a decent storyline between jun and jinpachi which was already an incredible attempt, besides for young heihachi which didn't make any sense as it's was based on his boss version from the original ps1 games, it should of had 2 separate Heihachi which one being the older version who could of carried it better.
"As long as I have my character, there is no need for more" Tekken players, I never understood the logic in saying a game is bad because there is too much characters on the roster, I guess the individuals wouldn't mind seeing the same characters over and over in ranks, lmao.
In terms of sales both tag games didn't do well which sucks. One was a ps2 launch title and the other was released at a bad time. There's plenty of offline content and things to do on both games through plus Tag2 released on Wii as well.
From a casual perspective i can see how a roster with a large move list, crazy damage and not knowing whats going on (mechanics) can be daunting. Initally before i got into the FGC i was a casual and was hard to understand what was going on sometimes. From what i heard on the competitive side, balancing was the main issue. I don't remember the last time it was even a main game at a major, primarily a side game. Perhaps hard to retain an audience too? Seemed T7 was fun and easy to watch/understand.
At the end of the day everyone has their favorite tekken game i rather namco release a collection to let supporters do the talking.
1. Not sure that Smash is a fair comparison since characters rhere don't sidestep nor have 100+ moves each. That adds level of complexity.
2. I game should be first of all fun to play. If I still was back home with my friends who i played tekken with TTT2 would be the most fun ever.
3. Competitive players don't even buy dlc or games themselves. Plus at that time it came out there was no such marketing machine through content creators or toirnament players.
4. I really doubt they will releasy any legacy tekken game with online component. They don't want to decide the playerbase + T8 where money is made in micro transactions.
If that was a legit problem like the roster size then that was at the bottom of the list my biggest problem was damage output was insane counter hit back 1 4 combo with capo could clear entire health bar. Solo Paul’s was crazy with rage damage. But the game just came out at a bad time and tbh they didn’t advertise it enough. Tag 2 def took way more skill to play imo. Your defense had to be on point.
"Too many fighters" that sounds like so much cope
Yeah. Tekken 7 at season 4 had 51. Tekken tag 2 had like 59. Not that much of a difference in terms of roster.
While I usually agree with you to some extent this is one case where I agree with you 1000% Tag 2 may have flopped but it wasn't a bad game.
On god.
Same people who say learning 2 characters is hard are the same people who play Marvel unironically.
Tekken 7 had great marketing and it’s not even funny. They were really smart with the marketing for Tekken 7. It was everywhere. But one thing I can say is Tekken Tag 2 is universally hated next to revolution tbh. I love them both in my opinion
hello mike and will you be posting lots of videos on the midnight rubbish channel this year and be more consistent in the future on that youtube channel
Only issue i had was goddamn damage system and rage system rest wast good and can play with your friends in co op at home
People complain about too many characters then they cut the roster and they complain that the niche characters aren’t there 🤷 tag 2 was fun imo. Also more people got more into gaming during lockdowns so that helped.
I think its becuase of competition. Today there is no one going against the fighting game genre.
Dude tekken tag 2 is my favorite jus back then it was so much hidden gems it’s ridiculous
Hey Mike I hear what your saying but i don't know if its fair to compare smash bros to Tekken on Roster size, In Tekken because of the amount of moves there is a much larger degree of randomness happening, so the matchup knowledge is far greater than any other fighting game. Whilst smash has a lot of characters I feel matchup knowledge is still far easier because of that fact. However that being said I agree with you. I don't think having more characters ruins a game, I think it makes the game more fun imo.
Now suddenly TT2 is great 😂😂
@@redhairshank19 always has been, brother. Always said it.
Tag 2 failed due to timing only, it’s the Third Strike of the series.. Also it’s easily the best game for casuals. The most fun mode to play with friends is without a doubt TEAM BATTLE
9:39 tekken movelist is far more complex and bigger then smash, kazuya was toned down in that regard when he got in ultimate, both execution and number of moves
So if you were to play him in smash and tekken, former is way easier then latter and same goes for the other fighting game characters whom got in, easier to use and not as many moves as original, let slome execution
Tag 2 failed because no one wanted to learn 2 match ups at once.
And blamed everyone but themselves. Now we have chip and 10 frame launchers
If you've ever scene MS play you would understand why he thinks making characters OD and brain dead was a good thing
Tekken 4 was hated and Harada himself said that 80% of the fanbase hated it. Still a great game though. Same with Tag 2.
I kinda disagree with the Smash take because that game does not have 100+ moves per character but good video